--- On Sun, 10/26/08, Haristas@... <Haristas@...> wrote:

> From: Haristas@... <Haristas@...>
> Subject: [pota] Political POTA
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 4:44 PM
> I know James doesn't want us talking politics here, and
> has insulted Europeans by saying our Presidential elections
> bore them, which I believe the exact opposite is true, but
> I'm going to talk what I want to talk -- dammit all to
> hell! -- and I doubt any Europeans will find it boring.
>
>
>
> Remember a couple weeks ago I posted a bio of Michael
> Wilson (Planet's co-screenwriter), well, that reminded
> me of a book I ran across years ago in a bookstore but
> didn't buy because I thought it cost too much. Anyway, I
> looked on Amazon recently and found a used copy for $4.00.
> It's titled "Blacklisted: The Film Lover's
> Guide to the Hollywood Blacklist" by Paul Buhle and
> Dave Wagner. It lists nearly every movie made that had any
> contribution by anyone who was blacklisted back in 50s/60s
> and a commentary. I thought I'd copy out what it has
> to say about PLANET OF THE APES even if it is political, and
> with the recent mentions of the tasteless comparisons
> between POTA and blacks (anyone here remember Spike
> Lee's DO THE RIGHT THING?), I thought I'd remind
> everyone of the only thing controversially related to POTA
> that's black -- the blacklist!
>
>
>
>
> But before I get to PLANET, here's a paragraph from
> what the book has to say about another Wilson scripted film
> classic, THE BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI:
>
>
>
>
> "(David) Lean's work was highly praised by
> American left-wingers and did his best work on this film.
> More than a little credit for that went into the sharpness
> of Wilson's writing. As in the later Planet of the Apes,
> also based on a Boulle novel, Wilson managed to drain some
> of the worst colonial attitudes from the original; it had
> not eluded literary critics of the novel that the Japanese
> played much the same role as captors in the original
> narrative that the gorillas played in Planet. By the time
> Wilson was done with the screenplay, all traces of this sort
> of thing had been removed."
>
>
>
>
> OK, now to the entry on PLANET OF THE APES:
>
>
>
>
> "One of the most popular sci-fi films of all time,
> Planet is also a landmark film of the blacklist because
> screenwriter Wilson, perhaps the most talented Marxist in
> the history of screenwriting, recast the action film into a
> powerful satirical allegory of the blacklist itself.
>
> Three astronauts from the past arrive on earth, are
> captures by apes and become the center of a political
> struggle between ruling orangutans, whose government and
> religion are suspiciously similar to that of U.S. southern
> conservatives (right down to the coiffed hairdos and
> investigating committees), while the liberal chimpanzees are
> scientists who are on the verge of proving that ape
> creationism is a superstition and that humans might actually
> have possessed an early civilization. When this dispute
> erupts into a show trial for the astronaut Heston and the
> chimpanzees act as his defense attorneys, the deeper theme
> is revealed. The chief orangutan growls at the chimps:
> 'Let us warn our friends that they are endangering
> their own careers by defending this animal.' The
> chimps' exchange of shocked glances at this threat of
> blacklisting had a knowing glint, for the actress in the
> monkey suit was in reality Kim Hunter, who had been named in
> the red-baiting publication, Red Channels, and blacklisted
> for four years in the mid-1950s. Later, when Heston and the
> chimps come across one of the astronauts and discover that
> the orangs have lobotomized him, Heston shouts, 'You cut
> out his memory, you took his identity, and that's what
> you want to do to me!' This is Wilson's metaphor
> for what happened to the 'friendly witnesses' who
> cooperated with HUAC. The famous (and brilliant) final
> scene in the movie was written by Serling before Wilson made
> his contribution and contains an additional political
> warning, this one against nuclear war.
>
> There may have been no more devastating revenge in the
> fight against the blacklist than the image when Heston,
> stripped naked before his accusers, watches the orangutans
> of HUAC cover their eyes, ears and mouth in the ancient
> image of determined ignorance. Critics and the public did
> not get the joke in 1968, and so the film became
> Wilson's literary time capsule, buried deep in the
> imagery of popular culture, to be excavated in the
> twenty-first century. All of this was anticipated, eerily
> enough, by Bertold Brecht in 1947, when he emerged from his
> HUAC testimony and remarked to Joseph Losey that his
> experience was like 'a zoologist being cross-examined by
> apes.'"
>
>
>
>
> -- Rory

--- On Sun, 10/26/08, Chris Lawless <lawford42@...> wrote:

> From: Chris Lawless <lawford42@...>
> Subject: [pota] Re: Conquest/Century City Then & Now
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, October 26, 2008, 6:54 PM
> I had recently requested these, so thanks for posting the
> link. Out of
> curiosity, do those stairs (to ape Management) go anywhere?
> Interesting
> to how in the photo labeled 'Stairs Again' you can
> see where the light
> fixture was removed. I wonder if the red diamonds we
> originally there or
> just put in for the film?
>
> Chris L.
>
>
>
> "Tim" <apefan23@...> wrote:
>
> >>Thought I had posted these already but I guess
> not....Here are
> comparisons of Century City from Conquest and Now...
> (well...August of
> last year)
> Will post more when I have the chance... <<
>

I wonder if any of Tom Scott's unused score (which appeared on the FSM version) will be in the isolated score?

Chris L.

The unused score will be very much a used score in the preview version!

-- Rory

Take it from one who's had a Blu-ray player for well over 8 months now and has only purchased 7 movies.

If those stats were based on me, Blu-ray would have gone bankrupt by now. :o)

Al

Well, I've only had a Blu-ray player for little less than a month, but so far I've purchased five movies. When I get the POTA set that'll add another five movies, bringing my total to ten.

You know, I think about ten years ago I was in this same situation with standard DVD, and I remember now that I paid more then for my first DVD player (around $350) then I did for the Blu-ray I just got ($250).

And you know what else.... it was ten years ago this month (Oct.) that Roddy McDowall died.

Boy, a decade sure goes by fast!

-- Rory

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lawless <lawford42@...> wrote:
>
> A couple of the VHS releases over the years had the same incorrect
> information- definitely the 1990 batch because I bought BENEATH
hoping to
> see some extra material. What bothers me is the fact that some of
those
> scenes were filmed and then not used, so that footage is
undoubtedly in a
> salt mine somewhere.
>
> Chris L.
>
>
>
> "Haristas@..." <Haristas@...> wrote:
>
> >>It gives the running time of BENEATH as 100 minutes. That's five
> minutes longer than the version we all know.
>
> OMG!!! This is a longer version of BENEATH!!!! What else could be
> included? Maybe those scenes with Cornelius sorting the humans and
> Ursus, Zaius and the Minister talking politics, and the fat mutant
doing
> whatever it was the fat mutant did that we didn't get to see!
>
> OMG!!!! OMG!!!!
>
> On the other hand, it's most probably just a typo. <<
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
> I wonder if anyone here went (or is going -- still only 5 PM out in
LA --) to that and has a report?
>
>

I've read the theory on Ansanaut's site. I'm not saying he doesn't make a logical and well thought out argument. It is still revisionism and at total odds at what is presented in the films. It's like making an argument that a female rabbit is male. No matter how logic and rational and intelligent your argument is; that rabbit is still not going to grow a penis.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "zasco1957" <Zasco1957@...> wrote:
>
> Dr. Hasslein, James, and M.C., please let me send you this feature on the
> third ship, courtesy the ANSANAUT site.
>
>
>
> Zach
>
>
>
>
>
> www.goingfaster.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: drhasslein
>
> Date: 10/19/2008 4:03:44 PM
>
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>
> Subject: [pota] Re: Blu-ray Disc Features
>
>
>
> The President (William Windom) identifies the ship as being Taylor's.
>
> So no third ship, (he even says there were two lost)no Brent's ship.
>
> The fact that that debate still exists amazes me. How resurrected is a
>
> different story, but there is no question as to who's ship it was.
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" rkid67@ wrote:
>
> >
>
> > "Apes exist, sequel required" is how they resurrected the ship, so
>
> any theory is valid.
>
> >
>

>Posted by: "James" JamesA1102@... jamesa1102
>I've read the theory on Ansanaut's site. I'm not saying he doesn't make
>a logical and well thought out argument. It is still revisionism and at
>total odds at what is presented in the films. It's like making an
>argument that a female rabbit is male. No matter how logic and rational
>and intelligent your argument is; that rabbit is still not going to grow
>a penis.

I rush across the street,
Planet started at 7 instead of waiting like we were told would happen.
There were only a handful of people there, the print was dark & washed
out, only eight people stayed for Beneath, the print I'm assuming was
the same as last year's, only it was dark & not as sharp...and no into
in between by Harrison... I don't think she introduced the films at 7 ,
unless she did it really quickly and rushed over to the club, maybe
someone else can fill you in as far as that goes.

I've found these kind of things are always disappointing. They need to be organized by people who are one, big fans of the movies involved, and two, good at organizing and coordinating things. Otherwise, they can be very shoddy, sad affairs.

Anyway, I would have stayed to look at the Blu-ray. Prints generally suck.

-- Rory

Probably were just on a joyride and figured they wait out the war.

Pretty crazy way to wait out the war -- they could get themselves killed!

Silly monkeys...

-- Rory

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "zasco1957" <Zasco1957@...> wrote:
>
> Dr. Hasslein, James, and M.C., please let me send you this feature
on the
> third ship, courtesy the ANSANAUT site.
>
>
>
> Zach
>
>
>
>
>
> www.goingfaster.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
>
> From: drhasslein
>
> Date: 10/19/2008 4:03:44 PM
>
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>
> Subject: [pota] Re: Blu-ray Disc Features
>
>
>
> The President (William Windom) identifies the ship as being
Taylor's.
>
> So no third ship, (he even says there were two lost)no Brent's
ship.
>
> The fact that that debate still exists amazes me. How resurrected
is a
>
> different story, but there is no question as to who's ship it was.
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <rkid67@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > "Apes exist, sequel required" is how they resurrected the ship,
so
>
> any theory is valid.
>
> >
>

I have to agree here. Too many works of fan fiction veers into revisionism. When doing Cornelius' Journal last year one of the goals was a strict adherence to canon. Now there are a lot of people who will say that you can't reconcile all the discrepancies in the POTA films without violating canon but when putting together Cornelius' Journal the opposite was found to be true.

Case in point, Taylor's dogtags. They are never seen in Planet but he has them in Beneath. Where did they come from? Well, it was very easy to resolve this discrepancy logically without violating canon but relying on it. Looking at Planet several points are established.

- The astronauts lost all their clothes and equipment (which would include dogtags) when the humans stole their stuff at the waterfall.

- The waterfall is not far from the field where the hunt took place.

- Zira & Cornelius only planned to break out Taylor and told Lucius not to bring Nova but Taylor took her with him anyway.

- After the breakout Cornelius rendezvous with with Zira, Lucius, Taylor and Nova in the same field where the hunt took place.

Right there is all the info that's needed to explain how Taylor had his dogtags in Beneath within the confines of canon. Thus, Taylor lost his dogtags at the waterfall. Since C&Z had not planned on bringing Nova along they would need more fresh water for the trip into the Forbidden Zone. The closest source of fresh water to their rendezvous is the waterfall. So when they stop there before entering the FZ, Taylor finds his dogtags.  Simple.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "drhasslein" <drhasslein@...> wrote:
>
> I really have no interest in a work of fan fiction that deviates from
> very much established canon... IMHO it is very self indulgent to
> engage in such matters... POTA is a work of fiction, so it needs no
> explanation, it just is.
>

Thus, Taylor lost his dogtags at the waterfall. Since C&Z had not planned on bringing Nova along they would need more fresh water for the trip into the Forbidden Zone. The closest source of fresh water to their rendezvous is the waterfall. So when they stop there before entering the FZ, Taylor finds his dogtags. Simple.

OK, now explain how the astronauts crash into an "inland sea" then travel west, or southwest, to find the greenbelts and Ape City, and then Taylors and party travel back east to find the ocean, then Taylor travels north along the shore and finds the statue, but then in BENEATH what was Queens, NY is just outside the Ape City green area and the gorilla army march across the desert to approach the ruins of NYC from the east side! Explain that logically!

-- Rory

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Alex Ruiz <pota1968@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for sharing. Did you take any photographs?
> If the print for Beneath was that bad, they should have just
cranked out the Super 8s instead! Just kidding. :o)
> But seriously, they might as well have pulled out a 50" LCD TV and
played Beneath on Blu-ray or something.
> Nevertheless it would have been nice just being there. Thanks again.
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
>
> I have to agree here. Too many works of fan fiction veers into
> revisionism. When doing Cornelius' Journal last year one of the
goals
> was a strict adherence to canon. Now there are a lot of people who
will
> say that you can't reconcile all the discrepancies in the POTA films
> without violating canon but when putting together Cornelius'
Journal the
> opposite was found to be true.
>
> Case in point, Taylor's dogtags. They are never seen in Planet but
he
> has them in Beneath. Where did they come from? Well, it was very
easy to
> resolve this discrepancy logically without violating canon but
relying
> on it. Looking at Planet several points are established.
>
> - The astronauts lost all their clothes and equipment (which would
> include dogtags) when the humans stole their stuff at the waterfall.
>
> - The waterfall is not far from the field where the hunt took place.
>
> - Zira & Cornelius only planned to break out Taylor and told Lucius
not
> to bring Nova but Taylor took her with him anyway.
>
> - After the breakout Cornelius rendezvous with with Zira, Lucius,
Taylor
> and Nova in the same field where the hunt took place.
>
> Right there is all the info that's needed to explain how Taylor had
his
> dogtags in Beneath within the confines of canon. Thus, Taylor lost
his
> dogtags at the waterfall. Since C&Z had not planned on bringing Nova
> along they would need more fresh water for the trip into the
Forbidden
> Zone. The closest source of fresh water to their rendezvous is the
> waterfall. So when they stop there before entering the FZ, Taylor
finds
> his dogtags. Simple.
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "drhasslein" <drhasslein@> wrote:
> >
> > I really have no interest in a work of fan fiction that deviates
from
> > very much established canon... IMHO it is very self indulgent to
> > engage in such matters... POTA is a work of fiction, so it needs
no
> > explanation, it just is.
> >
>

I think you mean arguing that a male orangutan, as stated in the script, is female without any verifiable evidence to back up your assertion.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@... wrote:
>
>
> Or arguing that a female orangutan is male.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2008 9:14:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
> It's like making an argument that a female rabbit is male.
>
>

Since everyone is caught in theories these days, I was wondering.

What does everyone here think?

- Statue of Liberty -

"Cut in half" or "Buried under 2000 years of earth?"

Al

Cut in half.

-- Rory

>Posted by: "zasco1957" Zasco1957@... soulfulguy1151
>That is true...but what about Zira and Cornelius getting married, the trial
>Dr. Zaius mentioned at the close of PLANET, Taylor disappearing in the
>illusion, being questioned by the mutant council, and other events...I just
>find it somewhat hard to believe that all of that only took place in a few
>days.

>And, what about Milo finding the third ship? Certainly that would have
>taken place over the course of at least a few months. It would have taken
>time for him to have studied it and "half understood it" (Cornelius mentions
>this to the council in ESCAPE).

>Posted by: "drhasslein" drhasslein@... drhasslein
>I really have no interest in a work of fan fiction that deviates from
>very much established canon... IMHO it is very self indulgent to
>engage in such matters... POTA is a work of fiction, so it needs no
>explanation, it just is.

>Posted by: "James" JamesA1102@... jamesa1102
>I have to agree here. Too many works of fan fiction veers into
>revisionism.

>When doing Cornelius' Journal last year one of the goals
>was a strict adherence to canon. Now there are a lot of people who will
>say that you can't reconcile all the discrepancies in the POTA films
>without violating canon but when putting together Cornelius' Journal the
>opposite was found to be true.

>Right there is all the info that's needed to explain how Taylor had his
>dogtags in Beneath within the confines of canon. Thus, Taylor lost his
>dogtags at the waterfall. Since C&Z had not planned on bringing Nova
>along they would need more fresh water for the trip into the Forbidden
>Zone. The closest source of fresh water to their rendezvous is the
>waterfall. So when they stop there before entering the FZ, Taylor finds
>his dogtags. Simple.

>Posted by: "Haristas@..." Haristas@... haristas
>OK, now explain how the astronauts crash into an
>"inland sea" then travel west, or southwest, to
>find the greenbelts and Ape City, and then
>Taylors party travel back east to find the
>ocean, then Taylor travels north along the shore
>and finds the statue, but then in BENEATH what
>was Queens, NY is just outside the Ape City
>green area and the gorilla army march across the
>desert to approach the ruins of NYC from the
>east side! Â Explain that logically!

>Posted by: "aboro3085" aboro3085@... aboro3085
>**** I've pointed out in my other posts as to why I think the idea of
>a "third ship" is nuts, and glancing at that link didn't change my
>way of thinking at all... Sure, he has a spiffy sight and all, but
>that doesn't give his idea, which totally contradicts EVERY line in
>ESCAPE regarding Taylor's ship, any validity at all... He's rewriting
>APES history for his own reasons, whatever they may be... It sure
>can't be to try to logically (i.e. within established canon) resolve
>some of these things... I think, as "DR.HASSLEIN" says, a "self
>indulgance"... If he really wanted to resolve the issues addressed,
>he could have tried working within the realms of what's been laid out
>in the films rather than making things up. Yes they're made up
>because they have no basis in what we've seen in PLANET and BENEATH
>(ESCAPE too.)

>Skipper asks Brent "Did you contact Earth?" he uses that as the basis
>for his "Mothership" idea, saying that the line is not referring to
>our planet Earth (which of course anyone with half a mind can tell
>you he is referring to), but that the "Earth" in question is the main
>ship from which the astronauts ships launched.

>Whenever anyone takes their own ideas and tries to
>pawn them off as "here's how it really is" by totally disregarding
>anything that is "factual" as it appears in the films is just kidding
>themselves... No matter how fancy the websight, how well written the
>theory, if it tosses aside what is so blatantly obvious just so they
>can set back and get people to think their ideas are "it", it's
>pretty egotistical...

>(And for the record, I'm not even too crazy about the fan-created
>ICARUS name sticking... How the hell did that get going?

>Worse yet is that people refer to every ship in APES as ICARUS,
>which I find dumb...

>Posted by: "Alex Ruiz" pota1968@... pota1968
>Since everyone is caught in theories these days, I was wondering.
>What does everyone here think?
>- Statue of Liberty -
>"Cut in half" or "Buried under 2000 years of earth?"

Happy Birthday Lady Liberty!

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
> On Oct. 28, 1886, the Statue of Liberty, a gift from the people of France, was dedicated in New York Harbor by President Grover Cleveland.
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "zasco1957" <Zasco1957@...> wrote:

>
> That is true...but what about Zira and Cornelius getting married, the trial
> Dr. Zaius mentioned at the close of PLANET, Taylor disappearing in the
> illusion, being questioned by the mutant council, and other events...I just
> find it somewhat hard to believe that all of that only took place in a few
> days.
>

You're forgetting one thing. At the end of Planet Taylor requests and is give food & water enough for him & Nova to survive for a week. Thus, Taylor & Nova couldn't have been wandering around the Forbidden Zone for more than a few days. The horse wouldn't have survived longer than a few days without food & water. When Brent encounters Nova she shows no signs of dehydration or starvation; so it couldn't be any longer than a few days after the end of Planet.

As far as the other points you brought up, one possible explaination was for them was presented in Cornelius' Journal: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/CJ.htmhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/CJ.htm

>
>
> And, what about Milo finding the third ship? Certainly that would have
> taken place over the course of at least a few months. It would have taken
> time for him to have studied it and "half understood it" (Cornelius mentions
> this to the council in ESCAPE).
>
>
>
> Zach
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Rich Handley <handleyr@...> wrote:

>
> 
> None of that happens during Beneath--it takes
> place in the months between Planet and
> Beneath. Beneath itself spans only a few days.
>
>
> Since he never found a third ship, the question
> is moot. But his finding Taylor's ship did take
> a good deal of time, yes, and occurred in the
> months between Planet and Beneath.
>

>
> Well, in fairness, all of us who frequent this
> and other POTA groups are no less indulgent than
> someone who creates a fansite based on a pet
> theory. If POTA needs no explanation because it
> just is, then there's no point to having any
> groups or sites devoted to the
> franchise--including this one. I may not agree
> with Chris Shields' interpretation--because, as
> you say, the films don't support it--but I would
> certainly denegrate his work. I have a lot of
> respect for the amount of time that went into
> creating it, and I give him a lot of credit for
> doing so. His site has a lot of value, because
> it helps keep a dying franchise alive. I think
> it's great that he had the passion to build that
> site, and to come up with so fascinating a theory
> to explain inconsistencies in the films--and I
> can think that without agreeing with his premise.
>
> See, I don't see a problem with revisionism if it
> helps to enrich the original material. Chris's
> site does that, in my opinion, even though it
> doesn't alter the fact that Escape makes it clear
> that the apes have Taylor's ship. (And NASA
> would definitely know if it were a different ship--they're not idiots.)
>

Plus where does it end? Once you say one revisionist theory is OK then why not all. If someone came up with a theory that the Apes were not Ape but mutant projecting a image of Apes would that be OK too?

>
> But there are some discrepancies in the films
> that simply can't be reconciled. That's where
> fan theories and revisionism help to make sense of it all.
>

>
> Excellent theory--I like it, and it mostly works within established canon.
>

>
> I just don't understand why anyone has a problem
> with Chris's site. Do I agree with its
> premise? No. But I see nothing wrong with its
> existence, and in fact applaud him for being so
> passionate about the subject matter. POTA is
> fiction, as Dr. Hasslein pointed out above, and
> ultimately NONE of it happened. Chris's ideas,
> just like Patrick's, may not be mainstream, but
> they are the work of fellow fans who deserve a
> lot of credit for helping to keep fandom
> alive--whether or not people agree with their explanations.
>

>
>
> >(And for the record, I'm not even too crazy about the fan-created
> >ICARUS name sticking... How the hell did that get going?
>
> Yeah, I've never been fond of that name either.
>

A week at most. At the end of Planet Taylor only had a week's supply of food & water for him & Nova. So they couldn't have been wandering around the Forbidden Zone much longer than that.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Brian P <brianspro@...> wrote:
>
>
> But how much time had elapsed between the classic end of PotA and Brent's arrival? It could have been months or even years. There are flashbacks of Taylor trying to teach Nova how to speak and then travelling in the Forbidden Zone until he disappears. We don't know how long Taylor was in captivity by the mutants before Brent found him.
>
> To: pota@...: Zasco1957@...: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 05:04:43 -0500Subject: Re: [pota] Re: Beneath's days (Was: Blu-ray Disc Features)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That is true...but what about Zira and Cornelius getting married, the trial Dr. Zaius mentioned at the close of PLANET, Taylor disappearing in the illusion, being questioned by the mutant council, and other events...I just find it somewhat hard to believe that all of that only took place in a few days.
>
> And, what about Milo finding the third ship? Certainly that would have taken place over the course of at least a few months. It would have taken time for him to have studied it and "half understood it" (Cornelius mentions this to the council in ESCAPE).
>
> Zach
>
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
>
> From: James
> Date: 10/26/2008 10:23:23 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [pota] Re: Beneath's days (Was: Blu-ray Disc Features)
>
>
>
> Beneath clearly takes place over a few days, not months. Brent tells the Mutants that he had been in Ape City only two days before.
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "zasco1957" Zasco1957@ wrote:>> I think that the time span in BENEATH was months, not just a few days.> > > > Zach >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____> You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/
>

> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Rich Handley <handleyr@> wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, in fairness, all of us who frequent this
> > and other POTA groups are no less indulgent than
> > someone who creates a fansite based on a pet
> > theory. If POTA needs no explanation because it
> > just is, then there's no point to having any
> > groups or sites devoted to the
> > franchise--including this one.

To me the visual evidence is inconclusive. It may be a female, it may not be a female. It is hard to tell the difference. The script says it was a male so for the moment I'd rather default to that; but if someone provide any evidence that it was a female I'm open to it.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, m c <aboro3085@...> wrote:
>
> *** The script may say it's a male, but c'mon James, even you have to acknowledge that it appears to be a female orangutan... At least the orangutan that T, myself, and a few others see is... The way it appears visually is pretty verifiable evidence, don't you think? ***
>  
>  
>  
> --- On Tue, 10/28/08, James JamesA1102@... wrote:
>
> From: James JamesA1102@...
> Subject: [pota] Re: The third ship...
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 5:03 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think you mean arguing that a male orangutan, as stated in the script, is female without any verifiable evidence to back up your assertion.
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > Or arguing that a female orangutan is male.
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 10/27/2008 9:14:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > JamesA1102@ writes:
> >
> > It's like making an argument that a female rabbit is male.
> >
> >
>

>
> --- On Tue, 10/28/08, Alex Ruiz <pota1968@...> wrote:
>
> From: Alex Ruiz <pota1968@...>
> Subject: [pota] One more theory
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 5:48 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Since everyone is caught in theories these days, I was wondering.
> What does everyone here think?
>
> - Statue of Liberty -
> "Cut in half" or "Buried under 2000 years of earth?"
>
> Al
>
>
>

None of that happens during Beneath--it takes
place in the months between Planet and
Beneath. Beneath itself spans only a few days.

It can't be months between PLANET and BENEATH, the Statue of Liberty isn't that far from NYC and it seems as if Taylor would have had to have been near there for the mutants to have grabbed him. Then Nova would have been riding around on that horse all that time -- for months? What? Riding around in circles for months? What did she do for food and water? How come the gorilla scouts didn't come across her?

No, it's about a week or a little more between PLANET and BENEATH.

-- Rory

What about Zira and Cornelius getting married, the trial Dr. Zaius mentioned at the close of PLANET, Taylor disappearing in the illusion, being questioned by the mutant council, and other events...I just find it somewhat hard to believe that all of that only took place in a few days.

Of course you do! You've mentioned several of the discrepancies between PLANET and BENEATH. It's just not believable that all these events happened in such a short period of time. However, I only attempt to explain it as sloppy screenwriting, nothing more.

BENEATH is a mess. A camel of a movie.

-- Rory

*** My vote is for buried. ***

I've always thought that the Statue of Liberty was blown in half and sunk beneath the waters just off Liberty Island. The cliff beside the ruined staue two thousand years later is the eroded side of the island. I also believe there was a lowering of the sea level and much interior erosion of the landscape. Also notice that the ruins of Manhattan no longer have water around them, and the ruins aren't buried, but are a rubble of decaying concrete and steel.

-- Rory

To me the visual evidence is inconclusive. It may be a female, it may not be a female. It is hard to tell the difference. The script says it was a male so for the moment I'd rather default to that; but if someone provide any evidence that it was a female I'm open to it.

James, this can never be "proved" otherwise to your satisfaction. Even if we had the call sheet for that day's shooting, which I believe Joe Russo has copies of, and it showed that an actress was cast in that part, you'd still say, "But the script says it's a male."

Even if the Blu-ray was so clear and we got a shot of he lower half of he/she and saw camel-toe, James wouldn't believe it!

Everybody, just let it drop.

-- Rory

> I may not agree
> with Chris Shields' interpretation--because, as
> you say, the films don't support it--but I would
> certainly denegrate his work.

> You're forgetting one thing. At the end of Planet Taylor requests

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, m c <aboro3085@...> wrote:
> *** The script may say it's a male, but c'mon James, even you have
to acknowledge that it appears to be a female orangutan... At least
the orangutan that T, myself, and a few others see is... The way it
appears visually is pretty verifiable evidence, don't you think? ***
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 10/28/08, James <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> From: James <JamesA1102@...>
> Subject: [pota] Re: The third ship...
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 5:03 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think you mean arguing that a male orangutan, as stated in the
script, is female without any verifiable evidence to back up your
assertion.
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@ wrote:
> >
> >
> > Or arguing that a female orangutan is male.
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 10/27/2008 9:14:59 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > JamesA1102@ writes:
> >
> > It's like making an argument that a female rabbit is male.
> >
> >
>

> There is at most a week, not months, between Planet and Beneath.

> The problem with revisionism is that it is disrepectful to the

> Remember it is their story, not ours to change at will.

> For most of the people who've peddled some of these revisionist
> theories, it seems to be more about themselves than about
> POTA. They just want to stamp their own imprint on the franchise.

> Plus where does it end? Once you say one revisionist theory is OK

> If someone came up with a theory that the Apes were not Ape
> but mutant projecting a image of Apes would that be OK too?

> Fan theories and revisionism are two different things. Fan theories

> That's the point. There is enough within established canon to

> Because it's like trying to have a serious discussion of dentistry

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
> I've always thought that the Statue of Liberty was blown in half and
sunk beneath the waters just off Liberty Island. Â The cliff beside
the ruined staue two thousand years later is the eroded side of the
island. Â I also believe there was a lowering of the sea level and
much interior erosion of the landscape. Â Also notice that the ruins
of Manhattan no longer have water around them, and the ruins aren't
buried, but are a rubble of decaying concrete and steel.
>
>
>
> -- Rory
>

They found some cache of food and water hidden in the middle of a desert?

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "rassmguy" <handleyr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" JamesA1102@ wrote:
> > You're forgetting one thing. At the end of Planet Taylor requests
> and is give food & water enough for him & Nova to survive for a week.
>
> Yeah, but that's easy to get around. Just as you figured out a way to
> explain the dogtags, the same can be done here. I'll give it a shot,
> for instance: They found more.
>
> There, see? Easy. :)
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "rassmguy" <handleyr@...> wrote:
>
>
> Given all that must happen between the films, I don't buy that
> premise, though I certainly respect your view. There's just too much
> that happens in the interim--the trial, the wedding, the pregnancy (I
> suppose one could argue that Zira was pregnant throughout Planet, but
> that clearly wasn't the writers' intention when the first film was
> made), Cornelius and Zira being entrusted with the orangutans' secret
> scrolls, Cornelius having time to study and memorize Earth history,
> the 12 scouts going into the Forbidden Zone and getting captured, and
> so forth. In a week? I don't buy it, regardless of how much food and
> water Taylor had. It's just not plausible to me.
>
Well you could argue that the existence of the mutants was not the writers' intention when the first film was made. Or that Zira, Cornelius & Milo surviving the destruction of Earth in Taylor was the intention of the writers' when the second film was made.

Which is more plausible the events mentioned above happening over several days or Taylor, Nova and their horse surviving in a desert for longer than a few days beyond the week's worth of supplies they had with them?

As far a scenario that places Beneath about a week after Planet, one was presented in Cornelius' Journal:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/CJ.htm. Feel free to cite exactly where it is not plausible.

>
> Well, saying they have "no right" to it might be over-stating the case
> a little. They definitely have the right--that's what fanfic is all
> about: creating your own versions of things. Just as others have the
> right not to read it. Fanfic and fan sites--even crazy-ass stuff,
> like the idea that Zira is really an alien platypus from Venus--help
> keep fandom and creativity alive.
>
Actually no one has the right. POTA is a copyright property owned by 20th Century Fox. As with most fanfic, as long as anyone doesn't try to make a profit off their works of fiction based on their owned property Fox doesn't have a problem with it existing.

Now it is one thing to write a piece of fanfic that adds depth or background to what is presented in the films or TV Series. It is another thing completely to go back and revise what had been presented before just to make your own story fit. People who do that are just self-indulgent. It's about them and their story and not about POTA. If you want to write a story about an alien platypus from Venus, go write it. More power to you. But just don't call it POTA. You either respect the source material or you don't.

>
> Eh. I don't think that's really much of an issue, to be honest. It's
> not our place to actually publish new novels and short stories, sure,
> because we don't have the license to do so--but to write it? Fans can
> write or think whatever they want. And in any case, it's not like the
> folks who own POTA have done a great job of keeping things consistent
> from one incarnation to the next. Consider Chris Shields' website in
> the same vein as the POTA cartoon--an alternate version of the
> universe that has its own rules and doesn't have to jibe with the
> movies to have value. (Plus, Chris' site is certainly better written,
> better researched and far less idiotic than the cartoon.)
>
That's fine but the problem is it is not being argued as an alternate universe. It is being argued as the way things happened in the films in direct contradiction to what was presented in the films.

>
> See, I don't see it that way at all. I think both Chris and Patrick
> (assuming that's who you're referring to, which I know is a big
> assumption, and my apologies if I'm in error) are bona fide fans who
> just like POTA a lot and have their own interpretations of what's
> going on in it. And people are as free to disagree with their
> outside-the-mainstream theories as they are to post and discuss and
> assert them.
>
Don't assume. But in regard to Chris. If he were a true bonafide fan then he would respect the source material. That fact that he doesn't, shows that it is just more about him and his theories then about POTA. If Paul Dehn had wanted have C&Z escape in a third ship, he would have written the appropiate dialogue to support that. What right does anyone have to revise and contradict what Dehn wrote? Absolutely none.

>
> Sure, why not? It's just fanfic. It does no harm--no one is forcing
> anyone else to read it, and it has no effect at all on canon. In the
> early 1970s, a lot of Star Trek fans wrote slash fiction about Kirk
> and Spock being lovers. Now, do I buy that for an instant? No--and
> neither did Gene Roddenberry, who had Kirk himself disavow the notion
> in the novelization of Star Trek: The Motion Picture. But those
> writing the silly K/S stories were part of what kept that franchise
> alive beyond the original series and into the era of the films and The
> Next Generation. And the same is true of POTA--this is a franchise
> that has gotten an appallingly low amount of support from those
> running the show. If it weren't for the Yahoogroups, the fan sites,
> and the fanfic and comic writers, it would pretty much be a dead
> universe at this point. So why limit what others are doing to keep it
> alive? Compared to other sci-fi franchises, there's a shockingly
> small number of fan sites out there as it is. I'm just glad there are
> still fans who give a crap. And, if nothing else, look at it this
> way: We'd have nothing to discuss if we all saw things the same way.
>
I've heard of the K/S stories and they are not what kept the Star Trek franchise going. In fact the reason Roddenberry went out of his way to disavow them is that he felt if they became more widespread, they would kill the Star Trek franchise.

>
> Sure. Now, I wouldn't agree with that idea any more than I would
> agree with Patrick's and Chris' core premise of a third ship--but I
> certainly wouldn't have a problem with them putting the idea out there
> for people to consider and refute. If we all had uniform ideas and
> interpretations, there'd be no point to having discussion groups. I
> happen to think Marvel's POTA run was fantastic, but others might
> disagree and call it drek. Who's right? Who's to say? Marvel had
> some aspects that were just as out there as the idea that the apes are
> just mutant projections--they had giant brains in jars, android
> gorillas, alien invasions, monkey demons, floating city-ships, an ape
> recreation of Camelot, ape-human hybrids galore, an intelligent
> gibbon, midget-sized cyborg mutant drones, and so forth. Is the
> existence of a third ship that much crazier? I'd argue no--the
> third-ship concept is pretty tame by comparison. I still don't accept
> it, mind you, and am not advocating it as being what's going on in the
> films, but I don't have a problem with someone putting the idea out
> there, anymore than I have a problem with Doug Moench's LSD-induced
> but fun-as-hell Marvel scripts.
>
But there is a difference. Marvel and all the other companies that produced comics were licenced by 20th century Fox. There are things that Fox allowed them to do and things Fox didn't allow them to do.

>
> But again--it's just fiction. And besides, who's to say what's canon
> and what's a short cut?

What is presented in the films and TV series IS canon. That is the rule of every franchise from Star Trek to Star Wars. Once you create something that is in direct conflict to what is presented in canon that's a short cut and revisionism.

> Is 3955 canon as the year in which the films
> take place, for instance, or is 3978? Because no matter which one you
> accept, you have to discard the other--and both are indicated in the
> films, yet both can't be canon unless you revise what's said on film.
> You can easily explain it away, sure, by citing equipment
> malfunction--but the bottom line is still that the writer of the first
> film set it in 3955, while the writer of the second set it in 3978.
> The writer of the second also had a rescue mission being dispatched
> even though Taylor was on a one-way trip that was intended to lose
> contact with Earth since he might potentially travel forward in time.

> Says you. :) It's not so objective and clear-cut as that,
> though--what one person sees as revisionism, another might not.
>

Sure there are discrepancies in the films. All franchises and TV series have them. Remember Obi-Wan telling Luke Darth Vader killed his father. But there is a difference in trying to explain a discrepency within the confines of what has been presented in the films and creating something out of whole cloth that is in direct contradiction to what was said in the films. They are two distinctly different things and it is just confusing the issue to equate the two as the same thing.

>
> 
> Ah, but there's a major difference there--one is reality, and the
> other isn't. Anyone who actually claims there's a Tooth Fairy and
> expects someone other than a child or the developmentally disabled to
> believe it is an idiot. But someone who has a different
> interpretation of literature or film is not engaging in reality, so
> the confines are far less rigid. I used to be a high school teacher,
> and I had a debate with a teacher once about whether the narrator of
> Frost's "The Road Not Taken" was happy with the choices he/she made.
> I argued that one could go either way with that one, depending on how
> someone read it, but she, being a rigid and dogmatic orangutan, felt
> that the poem could only be interpreted as the narrator being
> dissatisfied with his/her life. And though I'm definitely not calling
> you a dogmatic orangutan (heh heh), I think the same ambiguity of
> interpretation applies to fanfic and fan theories as well.
>
Again this is confusing two different things. Differing interpetations is not the same thing as revisionism. Sure someone can have a different interpetation of the meaning of a story or even the motives of a character depending on how ambiguous the author writes it. But if the author writes that a character is a man who was never married it is revisionism not interpetation to say that the character was really a woman who murdered her husband.

> And for the record, I am in no way shooting down your interpretation
> of how things should be, just as I would never do the same regarding
> Chris' or Patrick's. As far as I'm concerned, to each their own, when
> it comes to fan theories--and that includes what some might deem
> revisionism (which would certainly be required in order to squeeze
> everything that occurs between Planet and Beneath into a single week,
> for instance).
>
Exactly how would it be revisionism to say that everything that occurs between Planet and Beneath took place in a single week? No time frame is given in the film. It would be different if say Cornelius or Zira said 'we haven't seen Taylor in 3 months', but they don't. Plus you're discounting that certain things may have been occuring concurrent with events in Planet. It is never stated in Beneath that C&Z traveled to the Forbidden Zone to Taylor's ship during the last half of the film. But we find out in Escape that they did. Is that revisionism? No because we never see C&Z during the last half of the film.

> They found some cache of food and water hidden in the middle of a
> desert?

> Exactly how would it be revisionism to say that everything that

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@... wrote:
>
>
> In many cases it's not the print that is at fault.
> There are two settings on a projector. Many
> exhibitors use the lower setting. This is
> especially true of dollar theaters, because
> it uses less electricity and prolongs the
> life of very expensive projector bulbs.
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:21:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> Haristas@... writes:
>
> the print was dark & washed
> out, only eight people stayed for Beneath, the print I'm assuming
was
> the same as last year's, only it was dark & not as sharp...
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics â€" check it out!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?
redir=
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>

You're making the false assumption that Milo did all that between the end of Planet and the beginning of Beneath. Maybe Milo went looking for the ship as soon as he heard about Taylor back in Ape City. So the whole process may have started several weeks before the end of Planet.

And while you and I may be 21st century humans, neither of us is a scientist but Milo was.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "rassmguy" <handleyr@...> wrote:
>
>
> Well, here's one of the big problems with it occurring in so short a
> period of time--how did Milo (a) find the Icarus at the bottom of the
> lake, (b) figure out a way to raise it to the surface, (c) get all of
> the water out of it, (d) discern how it was supposed to work, (e) get
> the waterlogged computers working again, (f) refuel the ship, (g)
> figure out how to fly it, (h) make the vessel airtight for spaceflight
> and (i) launch it into space in so short a time? You and I are
> 20th-century humans, from a time when we'd know exactly what the ship
> was the moment we saw it, and yet we wouldn't be able to figure all
> that out given a couple of years.
>

Maybe it was a gay Orangutan?

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@... wrote:
>
>
> The only thing backing it up are my eyes.
> If that orang was a dude it was a VERY
> effeminate orangutan -- or Orantutrans.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/28/2008 5:04:15 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
> I think you mean arguing that a male orangutan, as stated in the script, is
> female without any verifiable evidence to back up your assertion.
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics â€" check it out!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@... wrote:
>
>
> Best guess? Less than a year and more
> than a month. Whether or not there was
> a trail Zira & Cornelius had time to get
> married and move in together, and
> they looked pretty settled. Granted
> They were already engaged, so
> plans were probably already
> set, if delayed by events.
> Say 6 weeks to 90 days.
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/28/2008 11:54:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> brianspro@... writes:
>
> But how much time had elapsed between the classic end of PotA and Brent's
> arrival?
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics â€" check it out!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>

Sure but do you really think she and a horse could survive more than a few days in a desert with limited food and water? I can believe a few extra days but not months or weeks.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@... wrote:
>
>
> She was a bit of a wild animal.
> So no doubt she has some
> survival skills at her command.
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/28/2008 11:16:08 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
> When Brent encounters Nova she shows no signs of dehydration or starvation;
> so it couldn't be any longer than a few days after the end of Planet.
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics â€" check it out!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>

And your eyes have never played a trick on you? You've never been fooled by an optical illusion? If you want to believe it is a female go right ahead. But don't tell me I have to believe it too unless you have better proof.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@... wrote:
>
>
> I'm going by the angle of the eyes.
> That's not to say there aren't males
> with feminine eyes. If you want to
> use that reasoning to back up the
> writer's intent, fine. I will use it to
> back my assertion that it's the only
> non-chimp female in the series. But
> demeanor and stature alone, says
> female to me, even without the angled
> eyes, just the flinch at being told "No!"
>
>
> "The eyes, Chico. They never lie."
> ~~~ Al Pacino as Tony Montana in Scarface~~~
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/28/2008 4:56:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
> but if someone provide any evidence that it was a female I'm open to it.
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics â€" check it out!
> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1211202682x1200689022/aol?redir=
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>

He did.

There is not much there then some shrubbery. Certainly not enough food or water to sustain them for weeks or months.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Brian P <brianspro@...> wrote:
>
>
> I always assumed Taylor found an oasis in the Forbidden Zone where he had food and water. I remember it looked as though there were some plants where Taylor was teaching Nova to speak and gave her his dogtags. I'll have to watch the film again to see if my recollection is correct.
> _____> You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/
>

No. The POTA novelizations have several significant differences with the films. In the Escape novelization the space capusle is found in the ocean and brought aboard an aircraft carrier rather than beached as shown in the film. None of the novelizations were written by the film's screenwriter but rather by spec writers who took some creative license in adapting the scripts.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Brian P <brianspro@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Wouldn't the novel, which is based on the script, and officially licenced by 20th Century be >considered canon?