That seems rather obvious. The Sacred Scrolls are the ape "Bible". The
setting down of all the rules and laws which govern ape society as we have
seen it portrayed. However, apes a thousand miles distant may have no sacred
texts, and may have developed a completely different way of life.
Gristle P.

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 9:53 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] What are the Scrolls?


> I think they are supposed to be something like the Bible.
>
> Anyone?
>
> Michael
>
> --- mlccougar@... wrote:
> > > *** I never said that Cornelius "lied all the time about things".
> All the
> > time? Where did you get that?
> >
> > First of all, to Patrick: When I said you said Cornelius lied all
> the time, I
> > suppose I should have been more specific. I should have said you
> (more or
> > less) said he lied all the time to The Presidential Commission. If
> there was
> > any confusion on that, it wasn't intended.
> >
> >
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Now, as far as this statementmade by JamesA1102:
> >
> > You're making the assumption here that the scrolls document history
> as well
> > as an issue of the New York Times. From the passages that were
> spoken in
> > Planet they sound like they were written in a more poetic style.
> >
> > Agreed. You're right here in saying that those scrolls are written
> in a
> > "looser" style of writing, more "poetic" as you call it. And since
> they are
> > written in that way, the contents in them iare up to being
> scrutinized, at
> > least as far as the actual "dates" in them. That's not to say I
> think the
> > scrolls don't tell their history, but the writings could be held up
> to some
> > questioning as far as the accuracy of the events documented in
> them. They are
> > open to interpretation.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I always thought there was an intention to refer to the sacred
scrolls to parody the difficulty religious groups had in accepting
Darwin's theory.

Michael

--- mlccougar@... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/23/2002 8:54:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> whitty@... writes:
>
>
> >
> > I think they are supposed to be something like the Bible.
> >
> > Anyone?
> >
> >
>
> That's the way I always thought of them, as the Apes "bible." They

seem to

> lay down the doctrine which Apes "should" live by.
>

I totally agree there are 2 timelines and I am a recent convert,
having thought until recently there was one.

I still think we could be heading to similar outcomes.

Michael

--- mlccougar@... wrote:

> This DOES NOT prove that there are 2 timelines just that similar

events take

> place in both (if 2 do exist).
>
> Well then, if it doesn't prove there are two timelines, then how

can two

> different "versions" of what happened exist in what you and others

say is the

> same (circular) timeline? It's these different "causes," locations,

figures,

> that make me believe there has to be two timelines. I know we went

over this

> before, and you have your interpretation as I have mine, but in my

mind, it's

> these variances that prove ("to me") that there are two of them.
>
> Who said two different versions? Escape just says a plague on Dogs

& Cats.

> Conquest elaborates a little more to say it was from outer space.

One could

> easily make the argument that it proves the circular timeline

theory. The

> only differences in the versions are those that we've made up.
>
> I do understand where you're coming from, and let me cover my a**

by saying

> that even though I "know" what I'm trying to say, it may not always

come out

> the way I'm hoping it does. That said, let me try to get this out

better.

> Yes, I know we "made things up," but that said, I still am of the

opinion

> that there are two timelines that happened. I don't think I ever

said that

> there weren't some of the same "happenings" in the two. I do say

though that

> there are enough differentials in the lines to say they aren't one

in the

> same, with the same ultimate outcome, and will never be. I still

say that the

> one Cornelius and Zira came from (and started by the "Aldo

revolution") is

> the original, the one started by the "Caesar revolution" is another

one all

> on it's own.
>
> One day I'm gonna have to "pull a Patrick" and write an essay on

this

> subject. But for now, I'm just gonna say that I'm of the two

timelines

> theory.
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 7:23 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] More Timeline talk

This DOES NOT prove that there are 2 timelines just that similar events take place in both (if 2 do exist).

Well then, if it doesn't prove there are two timelines, then how can two different "versions" of what happened exist in what you and others say is the same (circular) timeline? It's these different "causes," locations, figures,
that make me believe there has to be two timelines. I know we went over this before, and you have your interpretation as I have mine, but in my mind, it's these variances that prove ("to me") that there are two of them.

Who said two different versions? Escape just says a plague on Dogs & Cats. Conquest elaborates a little more to say it was from outer space. One could easily make the argument that it proves the circular timeline theory. The only differences in the versions are those that we've made up.

I do understand where you're coming from, and let me cover my a** by saying that even though I "know" what I'm trying to say, it may not always come out the way I'm hoping it does. That said, let me try to get this out better. Yes, I know we "made things up," but that said, I still am of the opinion that there are two timelines that happened. I don't think I ever said that there weren't some of the same "happenings" in the two. I do say though that there are enough differentials in the lines to say they aren't one in the same, with the same ultimate outcome, and will never be. I still say that the one Cornelius and Zira came from (and started by the "Aldo revolution") is the original, the one started by the "Caesar revolution" is another one all on it's own.

One day I'm gonna have to "pull a Patrick" and write an essay on this subject. But for now, I'm just gonna say that I'm of the two timelines theory.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

It is possible that they (C & Z) don't know that Milo has already been in the past and that, in fact, he is their "grandchild."

Make you think, doesn't it?
Too much!

<.html

You have a point which is why I don't believe the Cornelius was
lying. Both McDowall and Hunter play it totally straight. But ask
yourself this question, what did Cornelius & Zira's arrival do to
accelerate the process of apes becoming slaves? They say it took 2
centuries from the plauge to apes becoming a slave labor force. In
Conquest we see they process was much faster, taking only 8 years.
Caeser was off in the circus so he didn't speed up that process.
I'd also point out that in the pre-title of Battle the Lawgiver
states that Apes had already become slaves when Cornelius & Zira
arrived. So at that point, 700 years later, history is already been
distorted. It's not to hard to believe that it would continue to be
distorted through another 13 centuries.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> I think the "proof' is what Cornelius and Zira say to Hasslein
about all those centuries it takes for the apes to take over.
There's no way they're lying about that. It's both of them relating
it and it's said with conviction. You could say the history scrolls
they read got it wrong, but that's not what the director and the
actors are leading us to believe. That's one of the most powerful
moments in the movie. Etc. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mlccougar@a...
> To: pota@y...
> Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 7:23 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] More Timeline talk
>
>
> This DOES NOT prove that there are 2 timelines just that similar
events take place in both (if 2 do exist).
>
> Well then, if it doesn't prove there are two timelines, then how
can two different "versions" of what happened exist in what you and
others say is the same (circular) timeline? It's these
different "causes," locations, figures,
> that make me believe there has to be two timelines. I know we
went over this before, and you have your interpretation as I have
mine, but in my mind, it's these variances that prove ("to me") that
there are two of them.
>
> Who said two different versions? Escape just says a plague on
Dogs & Cats. Conquest elaborates a little more to say it was from
outer space. One could easily make the argument that it proves the
circular timeline theory. The only differences in the versions are
those that we've made up.
>
> I do understand where you're coming from, and let me cover my
a** by saying that even though I "know" what I'm trying to say, it
may not always come out the way I'm hoping it does. That said, let
me try to get this out better. Yes, I know we "made things up," but
that said, I still am of the opinion that there are two timelines
that happened. I don't think I ever said that there weren't some of
the same "happenings" in the two. I do say though that there are
enough differentials in the lines to say they aren't one in the
same, with the same ultimate outcome, and will never be. I still say
that the one Cornelius and Zira came from (and started by the "Aldo
revolution") is the original, the one started by the "Caesar
revolution" is another one all on it's own.
>
> One day I'm gonna have to "pull a Patrick" and write an essay on
this subject. But for now, I'm just gonna say that I'm of the two
timelines theory.
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

I'm glad that some have gotten a chuckle out of my "mutant illusion" theory in regards to the sinking of Taylor's ship, but just to clarify I don't exactly feel the need to incorporate it into my enjoyment of the films. I can accept that Milo, Cornelius and Zira flew to the past in Taylor's ship, resurrecting it by whatever mysterious means. But for the others that feel the need to "unflub" this particlular plot point, I threw that out there because it does offer a "worry-free" explanation as to how the ship could still be intact (and not water-logged) that does fall in line with the events of the later films (particularly BENEATH).

Matt

> I picture Milo being a bit of a "renegade" when
> it comes to scientific matters. He probably just went about trying to
> discover the ships (possible) existance without the permission of the
> Acadamy. That or he went in under false pretenses, saying he was searching
> for one thing while secretly trying to uncover the ship.

My take on Milo is that he is very skillful at handling the orangutans. Milo
has them convinced he is as orthodox as them and as a result he is the one ape
who can pretty much come and go as he pleases into the forbidden zone. Of
course this doesn't mean that other people's ideas about Milo are wrong. Milo
knows where to look for Taylor's ship because he read Taylor's story from the
hearing. The ship is heavily automated and for whatever reason holds up well
despite being in the water. The thing I find hard to explain is how the heck
Milo moves Taylor's ship from the bottom of the middle of a lake to the shore.

>I always figured that since they knew the Apes (well, Zaius anyway), seen
>thru their illusions, they knew it was pointless to even try to use them
>anymore. Their "weapons" were proven to be useless (Zaius proved "The vision
>was false...") OK now, that doesn't mean that had they tried other things to
>scare them off that that wouldn't have worked, but "maybe" since they knew
>their illusions were proven to be false once, they might have figured the
>soldiers would have just blindly attacked anything.

The mutants couldn't have killed many apes with their illusions, even if
they were allowed to. But they could have quite easily hidden themselves
from the apes with illusions of walls, rivers, lava, etc.

These are all good points but in ESCAPE Cornelius HAD to be lying
about the timeline since he says two different things at different times.

>As to Cornelius' recounting of history there are several
>possibilties:
>1. He was lying, but the performance doesn't indicate this as well
>as weak rationale for his motivation.
>2. The history in the scrolls is inaccurate. The Lawgiver who wrote
>them did so hundreds of years after the fact. Since the Apes a less
>advanced culture you can't expect them to keep records by our
>standard. Historians will tell you there are many inconsistancies in
>historical records kept over hundreds of years.
>3. The scrolls were written in a poetic style, not a straight
>narative style. It could be that Cornelius simply interpeted the
>time frame incorrectly.

>
>Planet of the Apes is a story that excited me when I was a child. When I
>was depressed, I could open a POTA mag and lose myself in it (talking brains
>and all). I never had any ideas about plot holes and inconsistencies.
>Every time POTA (any of them) came on at the movies I went to see it
>(including at the Drive-In when they played them all back to back). Any
>related item I could find, I would have my parents buy it. I could not get
>enough.
>
>I think I originally liked it because it was so different and unique. Where
>I lived, there was no POTA saturation - it would have been so much easier to
>sell out and like something else that was more easy to collect but I didn't.
>

I also had a sense of overwhelming excitement with the POTA concept as a kid
and I still think that the movies and TV shows hold up very well today. A lot
of people just saw POTA only as kids stuff and didn't realize the subversive
aspects of Mike Wilson's satire and the later material. The realization that
politicians and the culture could be intentionally lying about religion was
fascinating because only POTA dared to make those kinds of suggestions to kids
like me. POTA seemed to wink its eye and say "here is what is really going on
in the world". Today I wonder if the movie was sort of Mike Wilson's revenge
against those who had him blacklisted for most of his career.

>
>I have to agree again Mr Cougar, and I found little of any substance in the
>Adventure comics except the one that was supposed to relate to Conquest, and
>that was pretty crap to (but at least they tried!).
>
>Michael
>

All of the comic sequels to BATTLE (Marvel and Adventure) have been lame
rehashes of BATTLE. Imagine if Dark Horse did the story of Dr. Milo. I bet
almost everyone on this list would buy them. Dark Horse does a lot of those
kind of fill in the blanks stories for the Star Wars franchise. Maybe if
enough people ask Dark Horse they'll try the same thing for POTA.

>
>Michael's post made me think about my collection and how long ago I
>started it. Now we've all listed what's in our collection but I was
>wondering what is the oldest item in everyone's collection. How long
>have you had it? Why did you buy it? And what made you keep it all
>these years?
>

The oldest POTA item that I am the original owner of is the Marvel mag #18.
The oldest item I now own is the Gold Key BENEATH adaptation.

.htmlIn a message dated 6/24/2002 12:30:31 PM Central Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

All of the comic sequels to BATTLE (Marvel and Adventure) have been lame
rehashes of BATTLE.  Imagine if Dark Horse did the story of Dr. Milo.  I bet
almost everyone on this list would buy them.   Dark Horse does a lot of those
kind of fill in the blanks stories for the Star Wars franchise.  Maybe if
enough people ask Dark Horse they'll try the same thing for POTA.

I agree with you here 100%. I cannot speak for Mr. Whitty, but from his postings on this subject, I would guess he is also of this mind set. Speaking for myself here, I know that what you stated here is very much what I personally would have liked them to do, and would still like to see done. These "fill in the blank" type stories are what should have been done to begin with.

Now, you may have a point that if they get enough requests, perhaps they would do such a line of Apes comics. I'd be willing to write them a letter or two, but I don't have their address. Do you (or anyone else here) have an addres at which to write them to request these type of comics?<.html

The first Ape item I bought was a copy of Boulle's novel that I ordered
in 1973 from the Weekly Reader/Scholastic Book Club. It was the 23rd
printing.

The oldest items I now have are a few hardback first editions of the
same novel.

The oldest Apes movie items I own are a pressbook and one-sheet from
Planet.

ABMAC

On Saturday, June 22, 2002, at 10:29 AM, <veetus@...> wrote:

>> Michael's post made me think about my collection and how long ago I
>> started it. Now we've all listed what's in our collection but I was
>> wondering what is the oldest item in everyone's collection. How long
>> have you had it? Why did you buy it? And what made you keep it all
>> these years?
>> For me it's 3 cards from the original Topps series. Back when the
>> first film came out, the women who live in the apartment downstairs
>> worked at FOX's offices in New York. She brought home 2 boxes of
>> these cards for her sons. They gave me and my brother the doubles so
>> we had a complete set. Unfortunately, the place my brother stored
>> them was flooded a few years later and only three survived. I kept
>> these for years and now thanks to Ebay, have been able to rebuild
>> the whole 44 card set.

.html 

*** Just one problem with this take on it: Cornelius tells the
Presidential Commission that Milo found the ESCAPE ship "on our
seaboard"--in other words, on the beach or shoreline of the Ocean.
Cornelius previously referred to the lake where Taylor's ship splashed
down as "Dead Lake", and he tells Brent that the last time they saw
Taylor he was headed deep into the Forbidden Zone "between the LAKE
and the SEA". We know that Cornelius refers to Dead Lake as a "lake",
so that means that the Ocean is what he means by "sea" (he tells
Taylor that the river in the Forbidden Zone empties into "a SEA some
miles from here... that's where we'll find the diggings"). The Cave
with the Human Doll is on a cliff overlooking this same beach/
shoreline/SEAshore. Further along this beach is the half-buried Statue
of Liberty... and perhaps a bit further along there is another stretch
of beach where the mysterious astronauts who landed the ESCAPE ship
parked their vehicle. "...on our seaboard..." This rules out the
PLANET ship (which sank to the bottom of Dead LAKE) and the BENEATH
ship (which crashed onto the ground, far enough away from any body of
water that you can neither see any or hear the waves lapping along the
beach). Milo discovered an INTACT and working ANSA shuttle--Taylor's
shuttle would have been irreparably trashed by water corrosion, and
Brent's shuttle's computer is "shot"--so that they wouldn't be able to
use it regardless. If the computers don't work, then it's hopeless.
But an intact ANSA shuttle, correctly landed on a stretch of beach a
few miles further down from the Statue of Liberty (and unfortunately
missed by Taylor and Nova, obviously), COULD be discovered by Milo,
and put to use...

Patrick

Ok, let me ask you this, if Cornelius refers to the body of water that Taylor's ship crashed (and sank) in as a "lake", then what does Zaius mean by this line from "Planet": "Dr. Zira, you state here that a ship from outer space sank in an inland SEA of our eastern desert." Zaius, Zira, (and Taylor?) refer to the body of water his ship crashed into as a "sea." Yet you rule out the possibility of the "Escape" ship being Taylor's ship (or an escape/exploration ship carried within it) because you contend that the only body of water Taylor's ship could have crashed in was a "lake", yet in the original movie, they refer to Taylor's crash sight as an inland "sea."

Soooo, we have a dilemma here now don't we? Hmmm, how can we "unflub" this 'lil tidbit? What is that crash sight, a "lake" or a "sea?"<.html

>>You don't mind if I call you "Pat", right?

>*** I'd prefer "Patrick", if you please. My use of "Morgoth" and
>"Melkie" aren't meant to be offensive--just a 'familiar' sort of slang
>version of your pseudonym 'Melkor'. Just as Taylor didn't want to be
>called 'Bright Eyes' by the orangutans ["My name is Taylor--!"], so
>too would I prefer it if you referred to me as 'Patrick'.

Since you don't like it when people here call you "Pat", why do you mess up
names on other people? Doesn't that make you seem hypocritical?

>he really did. I believe that Chuck DID approve of the political
>subtext of the film (an agenda which the FILM embodies, although
>mainly through the characters of the "liberal" chimps--Cornelius,
>Zira, and Lucius--and NOT necessarily through the character he himself
>played: the misanthrope Taylor).

Cornelius and Zira are the main liberals but ALL of the "good guys" in Mike
Wilson's satire are liberals, including Taylor. Right away in its very first
scene the movie establishes to its liberal 1967 audience that Taylor shares
their views on the two most important liberal issues of 1967, the Vietnam War
and LBJ's War on Poverty, when he asks "Does man still make war against his
brother?" "Keep his neighbors children starving?". Taylor's status as one of
the liberal good guys of the movie is reinforced on later occasions such as
when he tells Lucius "Don't trust anyone over 30", calls "Chief Defender of the
Faith" Zaius a "fanatic", and when he mocks Landon for his "golden boy" "all
American image".

Would Heston oppose the Vietnam War today? Did he oppose the Afgan War? The
Gulf War? Would Heston support LBJ's War On Poverty today? Would Heston tell
people "Don't trust anyone over 30"? Call religious authority figures
"fanatics"? Would Heston mock people who have an "all American image"? Laugh
at people for putting up American flags? Will Australia ever be renamed "New
America"?

>asked--almost begged--to shelve for the moment her own liberal agenda
>(i.e. revealing the truth about the Humans and their Past, to put an
>end to the "ignorance" which she thinks is evil), in order--as Zaius
>says--to be the guardian of the "higher principles of Science" during

Zaius obviously made a deal with Zira and Cornelius. In exchange for their
keeping silent about the human doll, Zaius dropped the charges of heresy
and allowed them access to the secret scrolls.

>have to give up some of our essential liberties, it being a matter of
>our civilization's survival. Will Zira "think well" before she acts
>during Zaius' absence? Or will she go "full-steam-ahead" and take

In case anyone in the audience still couldn't figure out that the bad guys are
conservatives BENEATH is even more blunt. Zira says about Zaius "He has but
one motive. To keep things exactly the way they have always been". Which is
the very definition of "conservative".

>Zaius didn't have his vet butcher Landon
>because of his patriotic flag-planting; he had him rendered a
>vegetable in order to destroy his ability to use his Intelligence in
>the way that the ancient Human civilization did: destructively.

Zaius didn't give Landon a lobotomy because of his flag planting. But Mike
Wilson made his Landon character get a lobotomy (unlike in the book) because of
his flag planting and his conservative "golden boy" "all American image".
That's part of the reason the movie wasted time on the Taylor/Landon
interaction.

>Granted, Wilson probably wasn't the "gung-ho flag-waving patriot"

That would be an understatement.

>type, but neither is Landon, necessarily.

Yes necessarily. Landon himself admits to having an "all American image".

>In other words, the 3 male astronauts
>were intended to beget children borne by Stewart

Then they would have had 2 females and 2 males. Or better still, 3 females
and one male.

>
>Let me play devil's advocate because I think the 2 timelines theory
>has equal validity. Everyone assumes that the nuclear war and the
>rise of apes are simultaneous events because that's how it was
>depicted in Conquest & Battle (the alleged 2nd timeline). But what
>if the war still took place in late 20th/early 21st century and
>radiation from the nuclear war is what caused the plauge of dogs &
>cats.

We know that the plague came before the nuclear war in the original
timeline because it did so in the altered timeline. There is no
reason that the ESCAPE apes or Caesar would delay when the plague broke out.

>
> 10 cons, huh...? Rookie! I'm a con veteran, going back to 1982 and my wife
>and I are still going strong. Ah, the stories we could tell... But anyway,
>In all those years, I have never seen many POTA collectibles. Except for the
>few TV-based items and the original movie trading cards (in ancient times,
>they were called, "bubblegum cards"), there simply are none. There are a few
>Gristle P.

I see POTA collectables occasionally at cons. I got 3 megos at cons.
I also bought a POTA board game at a con, but am ashamed to say I
later threw it away. I saw my first Medicoms at a con, which later led
me to finding this group.

>> Cornelius' expert archaeological testimony--occurred roughly 2000
>> years prior to PLANET, in 3978 or 3955 (whichever).

The time clocks had a margin of error to them. Even Taylor says "give or
take ten years".

>like you do. Who the hell knows how really accurate they are? Maybe the
>survivors of "the war" in New America know? Maybe those aliens from the
>Roswell incident that gave the apes (like Mandemus) their intelligence know
>the clocks accuracy?

Is that another Patrick concoction?

>do so. My contention has been that when these films were made that
>the filmmakers intention was that mankind destroyed itself in the
>late 20th Century. This is supported by the visual evidence in the
>films, the dialouge from the cave scene in Planet and Taylor's line
>in Beneath.

I agree with this about the original timeline of the movie series but I would
point out that it is not also true about the TV series. In the TV series,
unlike the movies, the intention of the writers was that the nuclear war takes
place at least 501 years from now, and we are given visual evidence of
futuristic development to support this.

>The circular timeline theory is not something I dreamed up alone. It
>is something that has existed for 30 years. It has been stated
>within the films and discussed on in magazines & books written about
>the films. Roddy McDowall even commented on in the Behind
>documentary. Several timelines showing the circle have been written.
>Paul Dehn himself even said it was a circle.
>After all that for a POTA fan to may such a statement as:

>"Such as what? I'd really like to know some of this circular
>evidence..."

In this case I agree with mlccougar that you haven't provided any canonical
evidence of a circular timeline. Some casual fans think this but there just
isn't any actual evidence for it and I don't think a tear is evidence. Saying
that Paul Dehn wanted a circular timeline is not enough. Paul Dehn's BATTLE
script (where Aldo kills Caesar so that Caesar changes nothing) DID have a
circular timeline (because Caesar didn't change anything) but that script
of Dehn's with the circular timeline was rejected by Jacobs.

Yes Matt and I imagine there is an element of tongue in cheek about it.

It is also very close to the "it was all a dream" scenario, which some here
have recently said they expected at the end of Planet.

I do find it more believable than the mothership earth scenario, but I would
still categorise it as fairly silly so far as providing a believable
scenario. Somewhere up there with the "alternative universe" Star Trek
stuff. I also realise that this critique is from someone (me) who is being
fairly silly needing to find ways to explain what we all know are big
mistakes made by the writers.

Rod Serling never tried to be too scientific or believable about any of his
creations. His emphasis was always on setting an atmosphere, spinning a
yarn and getting a message across, so to me Planet has the least problems.
The sequels, however, attempt to take the story further and explain elements
of the story, so it bothers me that they did not take the time to get it
right.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: MTotsky@... [MTotsky@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 0:39
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Just to Clarify....
>
>
> I'm glad that some have gotten a chuckle out of my "mutant
> illusion" theory in regards to the sinking of Taylor's ship, but
> just to clarify I don't exactly feel the need to incorporate it
> into my enjoyment of the films. I can accept that Milo, Cornelius
> and Zira flew to the past in Taylor's ship, resurrecting it by
> whatever mysterious means. But for the others that feel the need
> to "unflub" this particlular plot point, I threw that out there
> because it does offer a "worry-free" explanation as to how the
> ship could still be intact (and not water-logged) that does fall
> in line with the events of the later films (particularly BENEATH).
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Not really.

It could be interpreted as a parallel to our history and how it is often
contradicted by religous accounts of events.

Or Cornelius could have erred, too much pressure/not enough sleep forced a
mistake.

So yes he must have been inaccurate, but it is not logical to therefore
conclude that he lied.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 2:24
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: The original timeline
>
>
> These are all good points but in ESCAPE Cornelius HAD to be lying
> about the timeline since he says two different things at different times.
>
>
> >As to Cornelius' recounting of history there are several
> >possibilties:
> >1. He was lying, but the performance doesn't indicate this as well
> >as weak rationale for his motivation.
> >2. The history in the scrolls is inaccurate. The Lawgiver who wrote
> >them did so hundreds of years after the fact. Since the Apes a less
> >advanced culture you can't expect them to keep records by our
> >standard. Historians will tell you there are many inconsistancies in
> >historical records kept over hundreds of years.
> >3. The scrolls were written in a poetic style, not a straight
> >narative style. It could be that Cornelius simply interpeted the
> >time frame incorrectly.
>
>
>

Yeah but you need to do more than just ask them, they would need guidance in
order to avoid creating any more plot holes and being faithful to the
series.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 3:23
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] More Apes comics talk..
>
>
> >
> >I have to agree again Mr Cougar, and I found little of any
> substance in the
> >Adventure comics except the one that was supposed to relate to
> Conquest, and
> >that was pretty crap to (but at least they tried!).
> >
> >Michael
> >
>
> All of the comic sequels to BATTLE (Marvel and Adventure) have been lame
> rehashes of BATTLE. Imagine if Dark Horse did the story of Dr.
> Milo. I bet
> almost everyone on this list would buy them. Dark Horse does a
> lot of those
> kind of fill in the blanks stories for the Star Wars franchise. Maybe if
> enough people ask Dark Horse they'll try the same thing for POTA.
>
>
>

My oldest that I originally bought is the Marvel #8.

I think the movie Gum Cards were about the first collectible marketed so
they would be the oldest.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 3:29
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: re: [Planet of the Apes] POTA collectables
>
>
> >
> >Michael's post made me think about my collection and how long ago I
> >started it. Now we've all listed what's in our collection but I was
> >wondering what is the oldest item in everyone's collection. How long
> >have you had it? Why did you buy it? And what made you keep it all
> >these years?
> >
>
> The oldest POTA item that I am the original owner of is the
> Marvel mag #18.
> The oldest item I now own is the Gold Key BENEATH adaptation.
>
>
>

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: mlccougar@... [mlccougar@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 3:42
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] More Apes comics talk..

In a message dated 6/24/2002 12:30:31 PM Central Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

All of the comic sequels to BATTLE (Marvel and Adventure) have been lame
rehashes of BATTLE.  Imagine if Dark Horse did the story of Dr. Milo.  I bet
almost everyone on this list would buy them.   Dark Horse does a lot of those
kind of fill in the blanks stories for the Star Wars franchise.  Maybe if
enough people ask Dark Horse they'll try the same thing for POTA.

I agree with you here 100%. I cannot speak for Mr. Whitty, but from his postings on this subject, I would guess he is also of this mind set. Speaking for myself here, I know that what you stated here is very much what I personally would have liked them to do, and would still like to see done. These "fill in the blank" type stories are what should have been done to begin with.

Now, you may have a point that if they get enough requests, perhaps they would do such a line of Apes comics. I'd be willing to write them a letter or two, but I don't have their address. Do you (or anyone else here) have an addres at which to write them to request these type of comics?

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: mlccougar@... [mlccougar@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 4:24
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] "Sea", I told you....

 

*** Just one problem with this take on it: Cornelius tells the
Presidential Commission that Milo found the ESCAPE ship "on our
seaboard"--in other words, on the beach or shoreline of the Ocean.
Cornelius previously referred to the lake where Taylor's ship splashed
down as "Dead Lake", and he tells Brent that the last time they saw
Taylor he was headed deep into the Forbidden Zone "between the LAKE
and the SEA". We know that Cornelius refers to Dead Lake as a "lake",
so that means that the Ocean is what he means by "sea" (he tells
Taylor that the river in the Forbidden Zone empties into "a SEA some
miles from here... that's where we'll find the diggings"). The Cave
with the Human Doll is on a cliff overlooking this same beach/
shoreline/SEAshore. Further along this beach is the half-buried Statue
of Liberty... and perhaps a bit further along there is another stretch
of beach where the mysterious astronauts who landed the ESCAPE ship
parked their vehicle. "...on our seaboard..." This rules out the
PLANET ship (which sank to the bottom of Dead LAKE) and the BENEATH
ship (which crashed onto the ground, far enough away from any body of
water that you can neither see any or hear the waves lapping along the
beach). Milo discovered an INTACT and working ANSA shuttle--Taylor's
shuttle would have been irreparably trashed by water corrosion, and
Brent's shuttle's computer is "shot"--so that they wouldn't be able to
use it regardless. If the computers don't work, then it's hopeless.
But an intact ANSA shuttle, correctly landed on a stretch of beach a
few miles further down from the Statue of Liberty (and unfortunately
missed by Taylor and Nova, obviously), COULD be discovered by Milo,
and put to use...

Patrick

Ok, let me ask you this, if Cornelius refers to the body of water that Taylor's ship crashed (and sank) in as a "lake", then what does Zaius mean by this line from "Planet": "Dr. Zira, you state here that a ship from outer space sank in an inland SEA of our eastern desert." Zaius, Zira, (and Taylor?) refer to the body of water his ship crashed into as a "sea." Yet you rule out the possibility of the "Escape" ship being Taylor's ship (or an escape/exploration ship carried within it) because you contend that the only body of water Taylor's ship could have crashed in was a "lake", yet in the original movie, they refer to Taylor's crash sight as an inland "sea."

Soooo, we have a dilemma here now don't we? Hmmm, how can we "unflub" this 'lil tidbit? What is that crash sight, a "lake" or a "sea?"
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

>*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague which killed off "every dog
>and cat on Earth" was brought to Earth from outer space, from one of
>the astronauts--a "mysterious virus". It would be an enormous
>coincidence if in the "first" timeline (which I'm assuming you're
>referring to here) the SAME effect--the killing of all dogs and cats--
>were to have a different cause (i.e. post-Nuke radiation instead of a
>"mysterious virus" from space).

Okay good point Patrick. I think the case is getting weaker and weaker for
saying that the original timeline of the ape revolution was in the 25th or the
26th century. I'm not sure I would rule it out completely as you do but I
think the evidence supports the 20th century much better. I also think that
Caesar would likely be lying to the CIA interrogators.

By the way why is the CIA violating its charter by taking part in a domestic
case?

>But that doesn't get past
>my beef that the 20th Century is over. Etc.

I would let that beef go. Even the first timeline can never be "our"
timeline because Taylor launches his ship in 1972. The TV series is
ruled out because they launch in 1980, but the cartoon universe is still
open if you want to go with that.

>
> >*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague killed off "every dog
> >and cat on Earth"

Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv series...?
Gristle P.

>
>
>

Well they could of tricked the Ape army into marching over a cliff.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> >I always figured that since they knew the Apes (well, Zaius
anyway), seen
> >thru their illusions, they knew it was pointless to even try to
use them
> >anymore. Their "weapons" were proven to be useless (Zaius
proved "The vision
> >was false...") OK now, that doesn't mean that had they tried
other things to
> >scare them off that that wouldn't have worked, but "maybe" since
they knew
> >their illusions were proven to be false once, they might have
figured the
> >soldiers would have just blindly attacked anything.
>
>
> The mutants couldn't have killed many apes with their illusions,
even if
> they were allowed to. But they could have quite easily hidden
themselves
> from the apes with illusions of walls, rivers, lava, etc.
>
>
>

I'd think you'd call this semantical minutia. Not everyone is so
exact in their wording.
And as far as the differences in the ships from Planet and Escape,
that can be explained in two words: Dramatic Licence.

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:
>
> > *** Just one problem with this take on it: Cornelius tells the
> > Presidential Commission that Milo found the ESCAPE ship "on our
> > seaboard"--in other words, on the beach or shoreline of the
Ocean.
> > Cornelius previously referred to the lake where Taylor's ship
splashed
> > down as "Dead Lake", and he tells Brent that the last time they
saw
> > Taylor he was headed deep into the Forbidden Zone "between the
LAKE
> > and the SEA". We know that Cornelius refers to Dead Lake as
a "lake",
> > so that means that the Ocean is what he means by "sea" (he tells
> > Taylor that the river in the Forbidden Zone empties into "a SEA
some
> > miles from here... that's where we'll find the diggings"). The
Cave
> > with the Human Doll is on a cliff overlooking this same beach/
> > shoreline/SEAshore. Further along this beach is the half-buried
Statue
> > of Liberty... and perhaps a bit further along there is another
stretch
> > of beach where the mysterious astronauts who landed the ESCAPE
ship
> > parked their vehicle. "...on our seaboard..." This rules out the
> > PLANET ship (which sank to the bottom of Dead LAKE) and the
BENEATH
> > ship (which crashed onto the ground, far enough away from any
body of
> > water that you can neither see any or hear the waves lapping
along the
> > beach). Milo discovered an INTACT and working ANSA shuttle--
Taylor's
> > shuttle would have been irreparably trashed by water corrosion,
and
> > Brent's shuttle's computer is "shot"--so that they wouldn't be
able to
> > use it regardless. If the computers don't work, then it's
hopeless.
> > But an intact ANSA shuttle, correctly landed on a stretch of
beach a
> > few miles further down from the Statue of Liberty (and
unfortunately
> > missed by Taylor and Nova, obviously), COULD be discovered by
Milo,
> > and put to use...
> >
> > Patrick
>
>
> Ok, let me ask you this, if Cornelius refers to the body of water
that
> Taylor's ship crashed (and sank) in as a "lake", then what does
Zaius mean by
> this line from "Planet": "Dr. Zira, you state here that a ship
from outer
> space sank in an inland SEA of our eastern desert." Zaius, Zira,
(and
> Taylor?) refer to the body of water his ship crashed into as
a "sea." Yet you
> rule out the possibility of the "Escape" ship being Taylor's ship
(or an
> escape/exploration ship carried within it) because you contend
that the only
> body of water Taylor's ship could have crashed in was a "lake",
yet in the
> original movie, they refer to Taylor's crash sight as an
inland "sea."
>
> Soooo, we have a dilemma here now don't we? Hmmm, how can
we "unflub" this
> 'lil tidbit? What is that crash sight, a "lake" or a "sea?"

There's also a dog at the beginning of The Legacy.

ABMAC

On Monday, June 24, 2002, at 05:11 PM, Jeff & Susan Stringer wrote:

> Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv
> series...?
> Gristle P.

Right. That's what I said earlier.

ABMAC

On Monday, June 24, 2002, at 05:20 PM, james611102 wrote:

> Well they could of tricked the Ape army into marching over a cliff.

>Patrick, be fair would you? This doesn't rule out ANYTHING!!!! Just
>like nothing anyone here says makes any difference to your ideas, it
>only gives you more motivation to find more reasons you could be
>right based on things as far fetched as a mothership called Earth.
>Really, after your mothership scenario which is the most far fetched
>idea I have heard of, you cannot discount anything anyone says!!

I think Pole-Shifted Australia wins out over Mothership Earth for the
"most far fetched idea" title.

Well what's the evidence of two timelines other than some theorizing
by Hasslien and Virgil about changing lanes.
The evidence of the circular timeline is simple. Planet and Beneath
show an Earth destroyed in the late 20th/early 21st Century by
nuclear war where intelligent Apes rule on the surface and mutants,
led by Mendez and possessing the Alpha-Omega bomb, live in the
territory next to them in the underground ruins of a nuclear
destroyed city. In Battle we see an Earth destroyed in the late
20th/early 21st Century by nuclear war where intelligent Apes rule
on the surface and mutants, led by Mendez and possessing the Alpha-
Omega bomb, live in the territory next to them in the underground
ruins of a nuclear destroyed city. Add to that that pretty much
everything Cornelius & Zira predicted in Escape came true in
Conquest and you have a good case for a circular timeline.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> In this case I agree with mlccougar that you haven't provided any
canonical
> evidence of a circular timeline. Some casual fans think this but
there just
> isn't any actual evidence for it and I don't think a tear is
evidence. Saying
> that Paul Dehn wanted a circular timeline is not enough. Paul
Dehn's BATTLE
> script (where Aldo kills Caesar so that Caesar changes nothing)
DID have a
> circular timeline (because Caesar didn't change anything) but that
script
> of Dehn's with the circular timeline was rejected by Jacobs.
>
>
>

Good points Micheal. What everyone seems to forget is that Cornelius
had no real point of reference until after the trip in Escape. He
may have previously assumed it was a period of 2,500 hundred years
or more. Even after going back in time he may not have realized the
timeframe or the discrepancy.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Not really.
>
> It could be interpreted as a parallel to our history and how it is
often
> contradicted by religous accounts of events.
>
> Or Cornelius could have erred, too much pressure/not enough sleep
forced a
> mistake.
>
> So yes he must have been inaccurate, but it is not logical to
therefore
> conclude that he lied.
>
> Michael

Personnally I've always assumed the TV series & the films are two
totally different entities. They have as much relation to each other
as the 2001 movie has to them.

--- In pota@y..., "Jeff & Susan Stringer" <stringe@b...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > >*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague killed off "every dog
> > >and cat on Earth"
>
> Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv
series...?
> Gristle P.
>
> >
> >
> >

>The clocks are theoretical. This journey is the first of its kind.
>Hasslein's "theory" is referred to. Anything from the "theory" is
>theoretical (anything in science, according to Einstein, is
>theoretical).

Not only that, but the proponents of Hasslein's theory must have been a
minority or else ANSA wouldn't have bothered to launch Brent's "rescue
mission". And Landon doubted the theory even after Taylor told him about
the clock.

Plus Taylor tell Landon the clocks prove Hasslien's theory. Maybe
there was some doubt about it which was the reason they installed
the dual clocks in the first place.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> Not only that, but the proponents of Hasslein's theory must have
been a
> minority or else ANSA wouldn't have bothered to launch
Brent's "rescue
> mission". And Landon doubted the theory even after Taylor told
him about
> the clock.
>
>
>

Only if you assume the ape revolt and nuclear war were simultaneous.
It's possible that the war happened first, then the spaceship with
the plauge returned later putting in motion the chain of events
Cornelius related. Nowhere does he state that it was before a
massive war so it could of happened afterwards.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> Okay good point Patrick. I think the case is getting weaker and
weaker for
> saying that the original timeline of the ape revolution was in the
25th or the
> 26th century. I'm not sure I would rule it out completely as you
do but I
> think the evidence supports the 20th century much better. I also
think that
> Caesar would likely be lying to the CIA interrogators.
>
> By the way why is the CIA violating its charter by taking part in
a domestic
> case?
>
>
>

> >*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague killed off "every dog
>> >and cat on Earth"
>
> Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv series...?
>Gristle P.
>

So that people would not try to fit the TV series into the movie series.

But that would only kill a few.

>Well they could of tricked the Ape army into marching over a cliff.

Why only a few?

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> But that would only kill a few.
>
> >Well they could of tricked the Ape army into marching over a
cliff.
>
>
>

And Landon would have still doubted the theory had he found the
Statue of Liberty - he did not WANT to believe it.

Michael

--- "Melkor" <melkor@...> wrote:

> >The clocks are theoretical. This journey is the first of its kind.
> >Hasslein's "theory" is referred to. Anything from the "theory" is
> >theoretical (anything in science, according to Einstein, is
> >theoretical).
>
> Not only that, but the proponents of Hasslein's theory must have

been a

> minority or else ANSA wouldn't have bothered to launch

Brent's "rescue

> mission". And Landon doubted the theory even after Taylor told him

about

> the clock.
>
>
>

I'm still thinking about this one.

Was the dog intended or just another scripting oversight?

Michael

--- "Melkor" <melkor@...> wrote:

> > >*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague killed off "every dog
> >> >and cat on Earth"
> >
> > Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv

series...?

> >Gristle P.
> >
>
> So that people would not try to fit the TV series into the movie

series.

>
>
>

>>Well what's the evidence of two timelines other than some theorizing
>>by Hasslien and Virgil about changing lanes.

Cornelius identifies Aldo, not Caesar, as the "fully documented" leader of the
ape revolution in the original timeline. Caesar "changes lanes" when he grants
full equality to humans. In an earlier version of the BATTLE script Caesar
doesn't know what exactly what he needs to do to change lanes and save the
world from destruction until he hears Cornelius say Aldo's name. Caesar's
actions lead to at least 700 years of "apes and humans living in friendship
and harmony" according to the Lawgiver in the altered timeline, instead of the
"carniverious gorillas" found by Cornelius in the original timeline. When
Taylor asks Zaius why he is hates and fears man, Zaius says it is because of
the Lawgiver's dogma. The Lawgiver's morphing from conservative bigot in the
original timeline to enlightened liberal (because of Caeser's earlier actions)
in the altered BATTLE timeline is the absolute biggest change that is possible
to the timeline, because his influence on the ape culture was comparible to
Confucius or Jesus and his Sacred Scrolls were like the Bible. The apes
"Bible" was almost certainly different in the new timeline, containing
none of the bigoted dogma "beware of the beast man, for he is the devil's pawn"
in the original timeline. No doubt individual bigotry still exists, but
bigotry is no longer ingrained into the culture and solidified into dogma
which is the difference between the USA and Palestine/Israel.

>The evidence of the circular timeline is simple. Planet and Beneath
>show an Earth destroyed in the late 20th/early 21st Century by
>nuclear war where intelligent Apes rule on the surface and mutants,
>led by Mendez and possessing the Alpha-Omega bomb, live in the
>territory next to them in the underground ruins of a nuclear
>destroyed city. In Battle we see an Earth destroyed in the late
>20th/early 21st Century by nuclear war where intelligent Apes rule
>on the surface and mutants, led by Mendez and possessing the Alpha-
>Omega bomb, live in the territory next to them in the underground
>ruins of a nuclear destroyed city. Add to that that pretty much
>everything Cornelius & Zira predicted in Escape came true in
>Conquest and you have a good case for a circular timeline.

None of that is evidence for a circular timeline, only that both timelines
had some common things. That makes perfect sense because Caesar's existence
would have changed some things and left some things the same, especially
all the basic things you describe.

I don't know but I thought we reached closure on this one - Zaius
rode into the illusion and the apes were on to the mutants (who
expended a lot of effort to create illusions and as demonstrated when
Nova uterred "Taylor" they are easily distracted, causing their
powers to fail) so the illusions were no longer effective.

Also, they don't kill, they get their enemy to kill each other. I
wonder why?

Michael

--- "james611102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:

> Why only a few?
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > But that would only kill a few.
> >
> > >Well they could of tricked the Ape army into marching over a
> cliff.
> >
> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:

> Cornelius identifies Aldo, not Caesar, as the "fully documented"

leader of the

> ape revolution in the original timeline. Caesar "changes lanes"

when he grants

> full equality to humans. In an earlier version of the BATTLE

script Caesar

> doesn't know what exactly what he needs to do to change lanes and

save the

> world from destruction until he hears Cornelius say Aldo's name.

Caesar's

> actions lead to at least 700 years of "apes and humans living in

friendship

> and harmony" according to the Lawgiver in the altered timeline,

instead of the

> "carniverious gorillas" found by Cornelius in the original

timeline. When

> Taylor asks Zaius why he is hates and fears man, Zaius says it is

because of

> the Lawgiver's dogma. The Lawgiver's morphing from conservative

bigot in the

> original timeline to enlightened liberal (because of Caeser's

earlier actions)

> in the altered BATTLE timeline is the absolute biggest change that

is possible

> to the timeline, because his influence on the ape culture was

comparible to

> Confucius or Jesus and his Sacred Scrolls were like the Bible.

The apes

> "Bible" was almost certainly different in the new timeline,

containing

> none of the bigoted dogma "beware of the beast man, for he is the

devil's pawn"

> in the original timeline. No doubt individual bigotry still

exists, but

> bigotry is no longer ingrained into the culture and solidified

into dogma

> which is the difference between the USA and Palestine/Israel.

Since the version that Cornelius relates was 1300 years after Battle
it's possible that history was distorted over time. Lawgiver states
at the beginning of the film that Apes had become slaves before
Cornelius & Zira arrived. So even over a much shorter period history
had been distorted. No one accept the most fundamentalists
christians take the story in the Old Testement verbatim. There is no
historical proof that Moses ever existed or that thousands of
Hebrews were slaves in Egypt or the there was ever a plauge that
killed male children. No Egyptologist has never found any such proof
in any dig site in Egypt. I believe that there was a Moses but I do
not believe that he live for 500 years or that the jews wandered in
the Sinai for 40 years. These are embelishments and distortions that
took place over time. The same could of happened in the Apes bible.
The end of Battle is a fork in the road. If ape and man can continue
to get along a new brighter future will be created. But what if they
cannot. Maybe Aldo was a martyr to many bigoted Apes that could not
give up their hatered of man. Perhaps many humans harbored prejudice
against the Apes. These 2 extremist elements (like in Israel and
Palestine) coud precipitate a conflict that drew in the more
moderate individuals of there society. In the end the extremist apes
win and alter history to make their hero Aldo the hero of the Ape
revolt. Caeser who had urged them to live in peace with humans would
be villified and forgotten.
As to Aldo's name being mentioned in a earlier version of the
script, as someone posted here sometime back it was crossed out of
the shooting script so as not to lead the audience to the conclusion
that by killing Aldo Caeser had changed the future.

> None of that is evidence for a circular timeline, only that both

timelines

> had some common things. That makes perfect sense because Caesar's

existence

> would have changed some things and left some things the same,

especially

> all the basic things you describe.

Some common things?? A hell of a lot of common things. The evidence
that you site are very very minor details that could have been
distorted over 2,000 years. The Apes didn't keep records by our
technological standards but in a more primative way. Who know how
many times the Sacred Scrolls retranscribed when the existing paper
started to decay.
The films leave things pretty open ended so there is no definitive
proof for either interpetation.

What happened to all the Gorilla Scouts the Mutants captured? Did
Taylor have to fight and kill all of them too?

--- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> I don't know but I thought we reached closure on this one - Zaius
> rode into the illusion and the apes were on to the mutants (who
> expended a lot of effort to create illusions and as demonstrated
when
> Nova uterred "Taylor" they are easily distracted, causing their
> powers to fail) so the illusions were no longer effective.
>
> Also, they don't kill, they get their enemy to kill each other. I
> wonder why?
>
> Michael
>
> --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > Why only a few?
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > > But that would only kill a few.
> > >
> > > >Well they could of tricked the Ape army into marching over a
> > cliff.
> > >
> > >
> > >

.htmlIn a message dated 6/24/02 8:51:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

What happened to all the Gorilla Scouts the Mutants captured? Did
Taylor have to fight and kill all of them too?

I think the implication was that they died under interrogation.  Doesn't Natalie Trundy have the line of dialogue, "Either their skulls were too thick, or they really knew nothing at all."  I guess they couldn't take the illusions.

-- Rory<.html

Damn it would of been to see Taylor kick some Gorilla butt.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/24/02 8:51:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > What happened to all the Gorilla Scouts the Mutants captured?
Did
> > Taylor have to fight and kill all of them too?
> >
> >
> >
>
> I think the implication was that they died under interrogation.
Doesn't
> Natalie Trundy have the line of dialogue, "Either their skulls
were too
> thick, or they really knew nothing at all." I guess they couldn't
take the
> illusions.
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:

> We know that the plague came before the nuclear war in the original
> timeline because it did so in the altered timeline. There is no
> reason that the ESCAPE apes or Caesar would delay when the plague

broke out.

How do we know it came before the war? Cornelius never states this.

So if Cornelius is lying about the timeline maybe he is lying about
the name of the first ape who spoke. Maybe he purposely choose a
Gorilla name since he would never pick to such a name for his child.
That would make the baby much less of a threat to man.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> These are all good points but in ESCAPE Cornelius HAD to be lying
> about the timeline since he says two different things at different
times.

.htmlIn a message dated 6/24/2002 4:00:17 PM Central Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

>like you do. Who the hell knows how really accurate they are? Maybe the
>survivors of "the war" in New America know? Maybe those aliens from the
>Roswell incident that gave the apes (like Mandemus) their intelligence know
>the clocks accuracy?

Is that another Patrick concoction?  

Yes, those are both "scenarios" created by Patrick.<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Whitty

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 2:56 PM

Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] More Apes comics talk..

I'll dig one up but keep in mind what I said about guidance.

 

How many people are actually lurking on this list?  A big number would inspire them.  Maybe they could do a one off if a series makes them nervous!

 

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: mlccougar@... [mailto:mlccougar@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 25 June 2002 3:42
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] More Apes comics talk..

In a message dated 6/24/2002 12:30:31 PM Central Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

All of the comic sequels to BATTLE (Marvel and Adventure) have been lame
rehashes of BATTLE.  Imagine if Dark Horse did the story of Dr. Milo.  I bet
almost everyone on this list would buy them.   Dark Horse does a lot of those
kind of fill in the blanks stories for the Star Wars franchise.  Maybe if
enough people ask Dark Horse they'll try the same thing for POTA.

I agree with you here 100%. I cannot speak for Mr. Whitty, but from his postings on this subject, I would guess he is also of this mind set. Speaking for myself here, I know that what you stated here is very much what I personally would have liked them to do, and would still like to see done. These "fill in the blank" type stories are what should have been done to begin with.

Now, you may have a point that if they get enough requests, perhaps they would do such a line of Apes comics. I'd be willing to write them a letter or two, but I don't have their address. Do you (or anyone else here) have an addres at which to write them to request these type of comics?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

I positioned Taylor, Virdon and Co. as coming from the "Escape" timeline,
a criss cross, since in "Escape" they know who Taylor is. Virdon and Burke,
maybe another timeline, since they didn't know about the ape-o-nauts.
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 2:58 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re:Timeline issues


>
> >But that doesn't get past
> >my beef that the 20th Century is over. Etc.
>
> I would let that beef go. Even the first timeline can never be "our"
> timeline because Taylor launches his ship in 1972. The TV series is
> ruled out because they launch in 1980, but the cartoon universe is still
> open if you want to go with that.
>
>

Let's just say it's circularish. Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:48 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re:Timeline issues


> Well what's the evidence of two timelines other than some theorizing
> by Hasslien and Virgil about changing lanes.
> The evidence of the circular timeline is simple. Planet and Beneath
> show an Earth destroyed in the late 20th/early 21st Century by
> nuclear war where intelligent Apes rule on the surface and mutants,
> led by Mendez and possessing the Alpha-Omega bomb, live in the
> territory next to them in the underground ruins of a nuclear
> destroyed city. In Battle we see an Earth destroyed in the late
> 20th/early 21st Century by nuclear war where intelligent Apes rule
> on the surface and mutants, led by Mendez and possessing the Alpha-
> Omega bomb, live in the territory next to them in the underground
> ruins of a nuclear destroyed city. Add to that that pretty much
> everything Cornelius & Zira predicted in Escape came true in
> Conquest and you have a good case for a circular timeline.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > In this case I agree with mlccougar that you haven't provided any
> canonical
> > evidence of a circular timeline. Some casual fans think this but
> there just
> > isn't any actual evidence for it and I don't think a tear is
> evidence. Saying
> > that Paul Dehn wanted a circular timeline is not enough. Paul
> Dehn's BATTLE
> > script (where Aldo kills Caesar so that Caesar changes nothing)
> DID have a
> > circular timeline (because Caesar didn't change anything) but that
> script
> > of Dehn's with the circular timeline was rejected by Jacobs.
> >
> >
> >

Yeah, there were no dogs in POTA2001. And if Burton had the opportunity to
put his chihuahua in there, he would have. But he didn't for the greater
good of the film. My hero! Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:57 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: The Truth About Cats & Dogs


>
> Personnally I've always assumed the TV series & the films are two
> totally different entities. They have as much relation to each other
> as the 2001 movie has to them.
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Jeff & Susan Stringer" <stringe@b...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague killed off "every dog
> > > >and cat on Earth"
> >
> > Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv
> series...?
> > Gristle P.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >

What "rescue mission"? Brent is only up on Mothership Earth and comes down
to look for him. Didn't you listen to what Patrick said? Etc. - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:51 PM
Subject: re: [Planet of the Apes] Theoretical Clocks


> >The clocks are theoretical. This journey is the first of its kind.
> >Hasslein's "theory" is referred to. Anything from the "theory" is
> >theoretical (anything in science, according to Einstein, is
> >theoretical).
>
> Not only that, but the proponents of Hasslein's theory must have been a
> minority or else ANSA wouldn't have bothered to launch Brent's "rescue
> mission". And Landon doubted the theory even after Taylor told him about
> the clock.
>
>
>

Silly boys. Haven't you ever heard of a species comeback? I site the sea
cow, gentlemen! Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] The Truth About Cats & Dogs


> > >*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague killed off "every dog
> >> >and cat on Earth"
> >
> > Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv
series...?
> >Gristle P.
> >
>
> So that people would not try to fit the TV series into the movie series.
>
>
>

So they can feel superior. Everyone wants to feel superior. Duh, stupid!
Etc. - - - Mendez

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Mutant's illusions


> I don't know but I thought we reached closure on this one - Zaius
> rode into the illusion and the apes were on to the mutants (who
> expended a lot of effort to create illusions and as demonstrated when
> Nova uterred "Taylor" they are easily distracted, causing their
> powers to fail) so the illusions were no longer effective.
>
> Also, they don't kill, they get their enemy to kill each other. I
> wonder why?
>
> Michael
>
> --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
> > Why only a few?
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > > But that would only kill a few.
> > >
> > > >Well they could of tricked the Ape army into marching over a
> > cliff.
> > >
> > >
> > >

Yes, so let's change the subject. Thade - - - boxers or briefs?
- - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 5:49 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: re:Timeline issues


> --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > Cornelius identifies Aldo, not Caesar, as the "fully documented"
> leader of the
> > ape revolution in the original timeline. Caesar "changes lanes"
> when he grants
> > full equality to humans. In an earlier version of the BATTLE
> script Caesar
> > doesn't know what exactly what he needs to do to change lanes and
> save the
> > world from destruction until he hears Cornelius say Aldo's name.
> Caesar's
> > actions lead to at least 700 years of "apes and humans living in
> friendship
> > and harmony" according to the Lawgiver in the altered timeline,
> instead of the
> > "carniverious gorillas" found by Cornelius in the original
> timeline. When
> > Taylor asks Zaius why he is hates and fears man, Zaius says it is
> because of
> > the Lawgiver's dogma. The Lawgiver's morphing from conservative
> bigot in the
> > original timeline to enlightened liberal (because of Caeser's
> earlier actions)
> > in the altered BATTLE timeline is the absolute biggest change that
> is possible
> > to the timeline, because his influence on the ape culture was
> comparible to
> > Confucius or Jesus and his Sacred Scrolls were like the Bible.
> The apes
> > "Bible" was almost certainly different in the new timeline,
> containing
> > none of the bigoted dogma "beware of the beast man, for he is the
> devil's pawn"
> > in the original timeline. No doubt individual bigotry still
> exists, but
> > bigotry is no longer ingrained into the culture and solidified
> into dogma
> > which is the difference between the USA and Palestine/Israel.
>
> Since the version that Cornelius relates was 1300 years after Battle
> it's possible that history was distorted over time. Lawgiver states
> at the beginning of the film that Apes had become slaves before
> Cornelius & Zira arrived. So even over a much shorter period history
> had been distorted. No one accept the most fundamentalists
> christians take the story in the Old Testement verbatim. There is no
> historical proof that Moses ever existed or that thousands of
> Hebrews were slaves in Egypt or the there was ever a plauge that
> killed male children. No Egyptologist has never found any such proof
> in any dig site in Egypt. I believe that there was a Moses but I do
> not believe that he live for 500 years or that the jews wandered in
> the Sinai for 40 years. These are embelishments and distortions that
> took place over time. The same could of happened in the Apes bible.
> The end of Battle is a fork in the road. If ape and man can continue
> to get along a new brighter future will be created. But what if they
> cannot. Maybe Aldo was a martyr to many bigoted Apes that could not
> give up their hatered of man. Perhaps many humans harbored prejudice
> against the Apes. These 2 extremist elements (like in Israel and
> Palestine) coud precipitate a conflict that drew in the more
> moderate individuals of there society. In the end the extremist apes
> win and alter history to make their hero Aldo the hero of the Ape
> revolt. Caeser who had urged them to live in peace with humans would
> be villified and forgotten.
> As to Aldo's name being mentioned in a earlier version of the
> script, as someone posted here sometime back it was crossed out of
> the shooting script so as not to lead the audience to the conclusion
> that by killing Aldo Caeser had changed the future.
>
> > None of that is evidence for a circular timeline, only that both
> timelines
> > had some common things. That makes perfect sense because Caesar's
> existence
> > would have changed some things and left some things the same,
> especially
> > all the basic things you describe.
>
> Some common things?? A hell of a lot of common things. The evidence
> that you site are very very minor details that could have been
> distorted over 2,000 years. The Apes didn't keep records by our
> technological standards but in a more primative way. Who know how
> many times the Sacred Scrolls retranscribed when the existing paper
> started to decay.
> The films leave things pretty open ended so there is no definitive
> proof for either interpetation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Yes, so let's change the subject. Thade - - - boxers or briefs?
> - - Jeff

Sandpaper. You don't think someone could overact to THAT degree without
it, do you...? ;)
Gristle P.

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 5:49 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: re:Timeline issues
>
>
> > --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > > Cornelius identifies Aldo, not Caesar, as the "fully documented"
> > leader of the
> > > ape revolution in the original timeline. Caesar "changes lanes"
> > when he grants
> > > full equality to humans. In an earlier version of the BATTLE
> > script Caesar
> > > doesn't know what exactly what he needs to do to change lanes and
> > save the
> > > world from destruction until he hears Cornelius say Aldo's name.
> > Caesar's
> > > actions lead to at least 700 years of "apes and humans living in
> > friendship
> > > and harmony" according to the Lawgiver in the altered timeline,
> > instead of the
> > > "carniverious gorillas" found by Cornelius in the original
> > timeline. When
> > > Taylor asks Zaius why he is hates and fears man, Zaius says it is
> > because of
> > > the Lawgiver's dogma. The Lawgiver's morphing from conservative
> > bigot in the
> > > original timeline to enlightened liberal (because of Caeser's
> > earlier actions)
> > > in the altered BATTLE timeline is the absolute biggest change that
> > is possible
> > > to the timeline, because his influence on the ape culture was
> > comparible to
> > > Confucius or Jesus and his Sacred Scrolls were like the Bible.
> > The apes
> > > "Bible" was almost certainly different in the new timeline,
> > containing
> > > none of the bigoted dogma "beware of the beast man, for he is the
> > devil's pawn"
> > > in the original timeline. No doubt individual bigotry still
> > exists, but
> > > bigotry is no longer ingrained into the culture and solidified
> > into dogma
> > > which is the difference between the USA and Palestine/Israel.
> >
> > Since the version that Cornelius relates was 1300 years after Battle
> > it's possible that history was distorted over time. Lawgiver states
> > at the beginning of the film that Apes had become slaves before
> > Cornelius & Zira arrived. So even over a much shorter period history
> > had been distorted. No one accept the most fundamentalists
> > christians take the story in the Old Testement verbatim. There is no
> > historical proof that Moses ever existed or that thousands of
> > Hebrews were slaves in Egypt or the there was ever a plauge that
> > killed male children. No Egyptologist has never found any such proof
> > in any dig site in Egypt. I believe that there was a Moses but I do
> > not believe that he live for 500 years or that the jews wandered in
> > the Sinai for 40 years. These are embelishments and distortions that
> > took place over time. The same could of happened in the Apes bible.
> > The end of Battle is a fork in the road. If ape and man can continue
> > to get along a new brighter future will be created. But what if they
> > cannot. Maybe Aldo was a martyr to many bigoted Apes that could not
> > give up their hatered of man. Perhaps many humans harbored prejudice
> > against the Apes. These 2 extremist elements (like in Israel and
> > Palestine) coud precipitate a conflict that drew in the more
> > moderate individuals of there society. In the end the extremist apes
> > win and alter history to make their hero Aldo the hero of the Ape
> > revolt. Caeser who had urged them to live in peace with humans would
> > be villified and forgotten.
> > As to Aldo's name being mentioned in a earlier version of the
> > script, as someone posted here sometime back it was crossed out of
> > the shooting script so as not to lead the audience to the conclusion
> > that by killing Aldo Caeser had changed the future.
> >
> > > None of that is evidence for a circular timeline, only that both
> > timelines
> > > had some common things. That makes perfect sense because Caesar's
> > existence
> > > would have changed some things and left some things the same,
> > especially
> > > all the basic things you describe.
> >
> > Some common things?? A hell of a lot of common things. The evidence
> > that you site are very very minor details that could have been
> > distorted over 2,000 years. The Apes didn't keep records by our
> > technological standards but in a more primative way. Who know how
> > many times the Sacred Scrolls retranscribed when the existing paper
> > started to decay.
> > The films leave things pretty open ended so there is no definitive
> > proof for either interpetation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Oliver Stone (POTA, circa 1993-'95) has put up a secret website that's
kind of a trip. It's at www.welcometonowhere.com . Enjoy. Etc. - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re:Timeline issues


>
> >*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague which killed off "every dog
> >and cat on Earth" was brought to Earth from outer space, from one of
> >the astronauts--a "mysterious virus". It would be an enormous
> >coincidence if in the "first" timeline (which I'm assuming you're
> >referring to here) the SAME effect--the killing of all dogs and cats--
> >were to have a different cause (i.e. post-Nuke radiation instead of a
> >"mysterious virus" from space).
>
> Okay good point Patrick. I think the case is getting weaker and weaker
for
> saying that the original timeline of the ape revolution was in the 25th or
the
> 26th century. I'm not sure I would rule it out completely as you do but I
> think the evidence supports the 20th century much better. I also think
that
> Caesar would likely be lying to the CIA interrogators.
>
> By the way why is the CIA violating its charter by taking part in a
domestic
> case?
>
>
>

A very tight thong might explain his bizarre behavior.

ABMAC

On Monday, June 24, 2002, at 11:40 PM, <veetus@...> wrote:

> Yes, so let's change the subject. Thade - - - boxers or briefs?
> - - Jeff

Briefs in this timeline. Boxers in the alternate timeline.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Yes, so let's change the subject. Thade - - - boxers or briefs?
> - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 5:49 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: re:Timeline issues
>
>
> > --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > > Cornelius identifies Aldo, not Caesar, as the "fully
documented"
> > leader of the
> > > ape revolution in the original timeline. Caesar "changes lanes"
> > when he grants
> > > full equality to humans. In an earlier version of the BATTLE
> > script Caesar
> > > doesn't know what exactly what he needs to do to change lanes
and
> > save the
> > > world from destruction until he hears Cornelius say Aldo's
name.
> > Caesar's
> > > actions lead to at least 700 years of "apes and humans living
in
> > friendship
> > > and harmony" according to the Lawgiver in the altered timeline,
> > instead of the
> > > "carniverious gorillas" found by Cornelius in the original
> > timeline. When
> > > Taylor asks Zaius why he is hates and fears man, Zaius says it
is
> > because of
> > > the Lawgiver's dogma. The Lawgiver's morphing from
conservative
> > bigot in the
> > > original timeline to enlightened liberal (because of Caeser's
> > earlier actions)
> > > in the altered BATTLE timeline is the absolute biggest change
that
> > is possible
> > > to the timeline, because his influence on the ape culture was
> > comparible to
> > > Confucius or Jesus and his Sacred Scrolls were like the Bible.
> > The apes
> > > "Bible" was almost certainly different in the new timeline,
> > containing
> > > none of the bigoted dogma "beware of the beast man, for he is
the
> > devil's pawn"
> > > in the original timeline. No doubt individual bigotry still
> > exists, but
> > > bigotry is no longer ingrained into the culture and solidified
> > into dogma
> > > which is the difference between the USA and Palestine/Israel.
> >
> > Since the version that Cornelius relates was 1300 years after
Battle
> > it's possible that history was distorted over time. Lawgiver
states
> > at the beginning of the film that Apes had become slaves before
> > Cornelius & Zira arrived. So even over a much shorter period
history
> > had been distorted. No one accept the most fundamentalists
> > christians take the story in the Old Testement verbatim. There
is no
> > historical proof that Moses ever existed or that thousands of
> > Hebrews were slaves in Egypt or the there was ever a plauge that
> > killed male children. No Egyptologist has never found any such
proof
> > in any dig site in Egypt. I believe that there was a Moses but I
do
> > not believe that he live for 500 years or that the jews wandered
in
> > the Sinai for 40 years. These are embelishments and distortions
that
> > took place over time. The same could of happened in the Apes
bible.
> > The end of Battle is a fork in the road. If ape and man can
continue
> > to get along a new brighter future will be created. But what if
they
> > cannot. Maybe Aldo was a martyr to many bigoted Apes that could
not
> > give up their hatered of man. Perhaps many humans harbored
prejudice
> > against the Apes. These 2 extremist elements (like in Israel and
> > Palestine) coud precipitate a conflict that drew in the more
> > moderate individuals of there society. In the end the extremist
apes
> > win and alter history to make their hero Aldo the hero of the Ape
> > revolt. Caeser who had urged them to live in peace with humans
would
> > be villified and forgotten.
> > As to Aldo's name being mentioned in a earlier version of the
> > script, as someone posted here sometime back it was crossed out
of
> > the shooting script so as not to lead the audience to the
conclusion
> > that by killing Aldo Caeser had changed the future.
> >
> > > None of that is evidence for a circular timeline, only that
both
> > timelines
> > > had some common things. That makes perfect sense because
Caesar's
> > existence
> > > would have changed some things and left some things the same,
> > especially
> > > all the basic things you describe.
> >
> > Some common things?? A hell of a lot of common things. The
evidence
> > that you site are very very minor details that could have been
> > distorted over 2,000 years. The Apes didn't keep records by our
> > technological standards but in a more primative way. Who know how
> > many times the Sacred Scrolls retranscribed when the existing
paper
> > started to decay.
> > The films leave things pretty open ended so there is no
definitive
> > proof for either interpetation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

http://www.darkhorse.com/help/contact/index.html"

Here is the Dark Horse contact info. If they start getting a bunch of
requests from ape fans they would at least start thinking about it.
Since their POTA 2001 series failed because the movie was lame we
should mention that we want stories based on the original movie series.
We might even want to mention specific fill in the gaps ideas such as Milo
or something.

-Tom

> There should be an address at www.darkhorse.com . I'm sure a series is out of

the question. They like miniseries that they can turn into graphic novels and
resell them. Etc. - - - - Jeff

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Whitty
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 2:56 PM
> Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] More Apes comics talk..
>
>
> I'll dig one up but keep in mind what I said about guidance.
>
> How many people are actually lurking on this list? A big number would

inspire them. Maybe they could do a one off if a series makes them nervous!

>
> Michael

>Since the version that Cornelius relates was 1300 years after Battle
>it's possible that history was distorted over time. Lawgiver states
>at the beginning of the film that Apes had become slaves before
>Cornelius & Zira arrived. So even over a much shorter period history
>had been distorted. No one accept the most fundamentalists
>christians take the story in the Old Testement verbatim. There is no
>historical proof that Moses ever existed or that thousands of
>Hebrews were slaves in Egypt or the there was ever a plauge that
>killed male children. No Egyptologist has never found any such proof
>in any dig site in Egypt. I believe that there was a Moses but I do
>not believe that he live for 500 years or that the jews wandered in
>the Sinai for 40 years. These are embelishments and distortions that
>took place over time. The same could of happened in the Apes bible.

I don't think that applies in this case.

A much better comparison with The Sacred Scrolls would be the New Testament.
The New Testament is filled with verbatim quotes of Jesus, and the Sacred
Scrolls presumably is filled with quotes from the Lawgiver, or else written
entirely by the lawgiver "Beware of the beast Man..." The "greatest ape of
all" Lawgiver in the alternate timeline has morphed into his exact ideological
opposite from the original timeline with regards to humans. I'll accept that
the New Testament could have distorted the words of Jesus a little bit here and
there, but it would be totally impossible for the New Testament to distort all
of the quotes of Jesus into the exact opposite meaning of what Jesus actually
said. The same logic applies to the Sacred Scrolls. The POTA "Jesus" was
fundamentally different in the altered timeline, and therefore the POTA "New
Testament" was fundamentally different in the altered timeline. The whole
point and the only point of adding the Lawgiver scene to BATTLE was to show us
that Caesar's changes (a) were long lasting, and (b) changed things
drastically. No other change could possibly have had a bigger or more drastic
impact on the timeline than to change the apes "Jesus" and the apes "Bible".

>The end of Battle is a fork in the road. If ape and man can continue
>to get along a new brighter future will be created. But what if they
>cannot.

We may not know with 100% certainty what happens after BATTLE, but we do know
with 100% certainty that the timeline not only has been changed but has been
drastically changed. We know that because the ape's "Jesus" has completely
changed his attitude about humans, and one of the many consequences is that
Zaius' reason "...and I still live by its injunction" for hating Taylor is
now gone in the altered timeline.

>As to Aldo's name being mentioned in a earlier version of the
>script, as someone posted here sometime back it was crossed out of
>the shooting script so as not to lead the audience to the conclusion
>that by killing Aldo Caeser had changed the future.

The mention of Aldo's name in the scene where Cornelius is talking proves that
the Corrington's intention for BATTLE was to clearly show that Caesar had
"changed lanes". Paul Dehn took out Aldo's name from the scene (I can see the
revision in my script) but that doesn't change the fact that Cornelius still
said it in ESCAPE and therefore it is still "canon". The bottom line is that
the "changed lanes" concept was so tightly connected to the Corrington's BATTLE
script that the only way Dehn could have credibly changed it back into a
circular timeline would have been to have Aldo kill Caesar instead of the other
way around. But that ending which Dehn wanted was rejected by Jacobs.

>None of that is evidence for a circular timeline, only that both

timelines

>> had some common things. That makes perfect sense because Caesar's

existence

>> would have changed some things and left some things the same,

especially

>> all the basic things you describe.

>Some common things?? A hell of a lot of common things

None of the things you mentioned qualifies as "evidence" for a circular
timeline. Just because the virus happens in both timelines does not
make the timeline circular. Why would it? Just because the nuclear
war occurs in both timelines does not make the timeline circular. Just
because the apes become slaves in both timelines does not make the timeline
circular. There is simply no reason that either Caesar or the apeanauts
would affect any of these things. The effect that Caesar's "changing lanes" had
on the timeline was to his OWN culture, the same culture as the Lawgiver. The
statues point out that the Lawgiver was influenced by Caesar in the altered
timeline as greatly as Zaius was influenced by the Lawgiver in the original
timeline.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:

> I don't think that applies in this case.

The operative word here being 'think' cause you don't know. And
neither do I for that matter. All we have are our own interpetations
and assumptions. I admitt that both theories have validity. Why are
you afraid to do the same? Reminds me of those that tried to forbid
the teaching of evolution.

> We may not know with 100% certainty what happens after BATTLE, but

we do know

> with 100% certainty that the timeline not only has been changed but

has been

> drastically changed. .

No we don't know this. To quote Zaius, "Don't speak to me in
absolutes the evidence is contestable".

> The mention of Aldo's name in the scene where Cornelius is talking

proves that

> the Corrington's intention for BATTLE was to clearly show that

Caesar had

> "changed lanes". Paul Dehn took out Aldo's name from the scene (I

can see the

> revision in my script) but that doesn't change the fact that

Cornelius still

> said it in ESCAPE and therefore it is still "canon".

You stated in another post that Cornelius was lying about the
timeframe of Apes becoming slaves and revolting to protect his
family. So why wouldn't he lie about the name of revolt leader and
purposely pick a gorilla name for the same reason.

>The bottom line is that
> the "changed lanes" concept was so tightly connected to the

Corrington's BATTLE

> script that the only way Dehn could have credibly changed it back

into a

> circular timeline would have been to have Aldo kill Caesar instead

of the other

> way around. But that ending which Dehn wanted was rejected by

Jacobs.

The only reason Jacobs rejected it was that he didn't want the ending
to be a downer. The Corringtons themselves have acknowledged the tear
at the end was meant to indicate that they hadn't changed lanes and
history would proceed as before. Dehn always said it was a circle and
he wrote the final draft of Battle. Jacobs even commented that the
intention was to show how the world of the first film was created. In
the DVD box set the timeline included on the Battle DVD shows a
circular timeline. So the writers, producer and studio all say it was
a circular timeline. I think they carry more weight than either you
or I on the subject.

> None of the things you mentioned qualifies as "evidence" for a

circular

> timeline. Just because the virus happens in both timelines does not
> make the timeline circular. Why would it? Just because the nuclear
> war occurs in both timelines does not make the timeline circular.

Just

> because the apes become slaves in both timelines does not make the

timeline

> circular. There is simply no reason that either Caesar or the

apeanauts

> would affect any of these things. The effect that

Caesar's "changing lanes" had

> on the timeline was to his OWN culture, the same culture as the

Lawgiver. The

> statues point out that the Lawgiver was influenced by Caesar in the

altered

> timeline as greatly as Zaius was influenced by the Lawgiver in the

original

> timeline.

Nothing you mention qualifies as evidence either. There is no
conclusive evidence for either theory because there's over 1300 of
untold history left at the end of Battle. Thus all we have are our
own interpetations.

I don't know how Patrick manages to make a subject I'm so interested in, so .
. . boring! Instead of these interminable post, might I suggest adding some
charts and graphs, animated GIFs and PowerPoint slideshows to your text to
spice things up a bit for the boredom challenged.

Remember, also, that the "third" ship (which Milo finds) has no
hibernacula (no room for them at all), and that it floats horizontally
in the water (unlike Taylor's ship).

Uhhh....true. But since they were propelled back in time virtually
instantaneously they didn't need to go into suspended animation at all. Is
there room for that chamber in the Escape ship? Doesn't look it. And given
the angle of the Taylor ship float, and the amount of wreckage behind Brent's
ship here's a novel idea. Rather than the Escape ship being a "third" shit
perhaps it only the forward third of one of the other ships, that broke off,
but was still spaceworthy, as well as seaworthy.

Sometime I think the people on this group put more thought into these storie
then the authors ever did. So you'll never be able to fix ALL of their
flubs.

.html

Well, if they think this bomb is so great, and worship it, and praise it for "making them" (what they are), I'd really doubt they'd see themselves as "ugly."

But they certainly found the apes unattractive.  Perhaps it was just part of a beautification program for Ape City!<.html

There's a difference between finding the BOMB to be "beautiful" and finding
their radiation-scarred, ugly-ass FACES to still be beautiful. And it STILL
begs the question: WHY do they wear masks at all?

Well, I would say it's tantamount to wearing clothes but being a Nudist. You
may find the human body beautiful, but you're not going to the ball in your
birthday suit. I doubt they found they're own masks ugly. It's like putting
on a nice outfit to walk around the town. Then again from the film makers
standpoint, if you show them like that from the start you lose the shock
value. Also you'd have the time and expense of making up all those actors
for every day of work scheduled.

I agree with Patrick on this it is a good film, but don't have a lot on your
mind when you go and see it. You'll need all your powers of concentration.
The story is VERY convoluted. But a lot of that is the directors fault. Not
that it isn't written that way. But he should have been able to present the
story in a more straight forward manner and still kept the mystery feel too
it. Well, Hitchcock could have anyway. There is an awful lot to keep track
of with all the present/future shifts & peoples alternate futures etc . . .
Young children and old folks beware. You have to have your thinking caps on
to keep up with this! And I cannot stand Tom Cruise movies, but I actually
enjoyed this one.

.html

The mutants wear masks for the same reasons most people wear clothing;
to hide their "true selves" from their peers. It may not be law, but
it's probably a taboo, as is public nudity for us.

Ah ha!  I see someone thinks that too!

<.html

.html

No but they could of got Anthony Hopkins!!!

Yeah, he would have been cheap back then.
In Hamlet the stuck him with Claudius!

<.html

.html

What is that crash sight, a "lake" or a "sea?"

Well, since it was filmed in a lake I'd call it a lake.
But some inland seas aren't very big The Aral Sea
comes to mind.  Lake Baykal isn't much smaller than
that, though it is narrower.  But since the Ocean is off-limits
to the apes, maybe its a sea to them.  Perhaps its salt water
like The Great Salt Lake.<.html

.html

What is that crash sight, a "lake" or a "sea?"

Come to think of it, a few of the Great Lakes are bigger then the Aral Sea!
<.html

I still think the end of Battle was intended to be left OPEN.

I also think this was in order to facilitate a further story, but not the
following year as had been the trend.

Who is to say that it is not possible that a month after the final Battle
scene the Lawgiver's attitudes and subsequent writings changed?

Maybe there is a series of Lawgivers.

Nothing is concluded, but I am of the belief that there are 2 timelines. I
am also of the belief that while some things have changed, the outcome may
be similar. Otherwise, why not kill off the Mutants? They left the
possibility for the same bomb to one day destroy Earth.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 June 2002 3:48
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: re:Timeline issues
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > I don't think that applies in this case.
>
> The operative word here being 'think' cause you don't know. And
> neither do I for that matter. All we have are our own interpetations
> and assumptions. I admitt that both theories have validity. Why are
> you afraid to do the same? Reminds me of those that tried to forbid
> the teaching of evolution.
>
>
> > We may not know with 100% certainty what happens after BATTLE, but
> we do know
> > with 100% certainty that the timeline not only has been changed but
> has been
> > drastically changed. .
>
> No we don't know this. To quote Zaius, "Don't speak to me in
> absolutes the evidence is contestable".
>
> > The mention of Aldo's name in the scene where Cornelius is talking
> proves that
> > the Corrington's intention for BATTLE was to clearly show that
> Caesar had
> > "changed lanes". Paul Dehn took out Aldo's name from the scene (I
> can see the
> > revision in my script) but that doesn't change the fact that
> Cornelius still
> > said it in ESCAPE and therefore it is still "canon".
>
> You stated in another post that Cornelius was lying about the
> timeframe of Apes becoming slaves and revolting to protect his
> family. So why wouldn't he lie about the name of revolt leader and
> purposely pick a gorilla name for the same reason.
>
>
> >The bottom line is that
> > the "changed lanes" concept was so tightly connected to the
> Corrington's BATTLE
> > script that the only way Dehn could have credibly changed it back
> into a
> > circular timeline would have been to have Aldo kill Caesar instead
> of the other
> > way around. But that ending which Dehn wanted was rejected by
> Jacobs.
>
> The only reason Jacobs rejected it was that he didn't want the ending
> to be a downer. The Corringtons themselves have acknowledged the tear
> at the end was meant to indicate that they hadn't changed lanes and
> history would proceed as before. Dehn always said it was a circle and
> he wrote the final draft of Battle. Jacobs even commented that the
> intention was to show how the world of the first film was created. In
> the DVD box set the timeline included on the Battle DVD shows a
> circular timeline. So the writers, producer and studio all say it was
> a circular timeline. I think they carry more weight than either you
> or I on the subject.
>
>
>
>
> > None of the things you mentioned qualifies as "evidence" for a
> circular
> > timeline. Just because the virus happens in both timelines does not
> > make the timeline circular. Why would it? Just because the nuclear
> > war occurs in both timelines does not make the timeline circular.
> Just
> > because the apes become slaves in both timelines does not make the
> timeline
> > circular. There is simply no reason that either Caesar or the
> apeanauts
> > would affect any of these things. The effect that
> Caesar's "changing lanes" had
> > on the timeline was to his OWN culture, the same culture as the
> Lawgiver. The
> > statues point out that the Lawgiver was influenced by Caesar in the
> altered
> > timeline as greatly as Zaius was influenced by the Lawgiver in the
> original
> > timeline.
>
>
> Nothing you mention qualifies as evidence either. There is no
> conclusive evidence for either theory because there's over 1300 of
> untold history left at the end of Battle. Thus all we have are our
> own interpetations.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Mr Cougar

I am not sure if you got this post.

It offers some interesting ideas, but nobody has responded.

Do you, or does anybody else, have a comment?

I think it is a highly explorable idea.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sand_hill_school [sand_hill_school@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 23 June 2002 5:54
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Escape Interior
>
>
> Could a storyline be made to make this case? I'm sure it's a
> sieve,
> but if it worked it would explain Milo's story AND clean up the
> question of the ship.
>
> Is it possible that Milo has been in the past? Maybe he COMES from
> the past. "Our Time." Suppose he is the child that resulted
> from the breeding of Caesar and the slave ape in Conquest. He is a
> speaking, thinking Ape -- somewhat more advanced than the other Apes -
> - with the knowledge that in the future, Apes rule. Suppose THAT
> Ape, Milo, took a ship (the Escape ship) to the future.
>
> He has a ship AND knows how it works. For some reason (maybe
> obvious), he chooses to go back now – just before the doomsday
> bomb goes off -- and chooses to take Zira and Cornelius with him.
> Beneath them…. Kaboom!!
>
> It is possible that they (C & Z) don't know that Milo has already
> been in the past and that, in fact, he is their "grandchild."
> And
> now, unfortunately, they won't know – unless maybe he told
> them
> either enroute or before he died. And maybe that is why Cornelius
> feels a need to "lie" or "make something up" –
> not knowing what to
> think anymore, what is actually true, whom to trust, or his actual
> level of responsibility. They, C & Z, know too much, and are too
> involved for their own safety.
>
> ???????
>
> --Helen
>
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> wrote:
> > --- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 6/18/2002 7:01:08 PM Central Standard Time,
> > > whitty@c... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > How they raised the ship is more difficult. How they got the
> water
> > > > out and repaired damaged (shorted and blown) wiring is a bit of
> a
> > > > problem. How they did it so quickly is also a concern.
> > >
> > > Now this is so hypothetical it's not even funny... But let's say
> that the
> > > "Escape" ship is a smaller vessel from inside the larger ship we
> see sinking
> > > at the beginning of "Planet of the Apes". Perhaps this smaller
> vessel would
> > > have the ability to float (in case it had to land on water.)
> Remember, in
> > > "Escape" that ship is not sunk or sinking when it's discovered,
> it is
> > > floating. So, by having the ability to float, "maybe" it would
> have just went
> > > upward to the water's surface when it would have been released
> from it's
> > > holding chamber. Being an (I'd guess) vacuum sealed ship in a
> protected
> > > holding chamber could prevent any of the interior from being
> damaged by
> > > water, and prevent water from getting into the interior to begin
> with.
> > >
> > > Now, again, as stated before, I know that "technically"
> the "Escape" ship is
> > > supposed to be Taylor's ship from "Planet" as well. BUT, I am
> also saying
> > > that for those who say the "Escape" ship can't be the same one as
> we see
> > > sinking in "Planet," these may be a possible solution to what the
> much
> > > smaller vessel we see in "Escape" is.
> >
> > *** Just one problem with this take on it: Cornelius tells the
> > Presidential Commission that Milo found the ESCAPE ship "on our
> > seaboard"--in other words, on the beach or shoreline of the Ocean.
> > Cornelius previously referred to the lake where Taylor's ship
> splashed
> > down as "Dead Lake", and he tells Brent that the last time they saw
> > Taylor he was headed deep into the Forbidden Zone "between the LAKE
> > and the SEA". We know that Cornelius refers to Dead Lake as
> a "lake",
> > so that means that the Ocean is what he means by "sea" (he tells
> > Taylor that the river in the Forbidden Zone empties into "a SEA
> some
> > miles from here... that's where we'll find the diggings"). The Cave
> > with the Human Doll is on a cliff overlooking this same beach/
> > shoreline/SEAshore. Further along this beach is the half-buried
> Statue
> > of Liberty... and perhaps a bit further along there is another
> stretch
> > of beach where the mysterious astronauts who landed the ESCAPE ship
> > parked their vehicle. "...on our seaboard..." This rules out the
> > PLANET ship (which sank to the bottom of Dead LAKE) and the BENEATH
> > ship (which crashed onto the ground, far enough away from any body
> of
> > water that you can neither see any or hear the waves lapping along
> the
> > beach). Milo discovered an INTACT and working ANSA shuttle--
> Taylor's
> > shuttle would have been irreparably trashed by water corrosion, and
> > Brent's shuttle's computer is "shot"--so that they wouldn't be able
> to
> > use it regardless. If the computers don't work, then it's hopeless.
> > But an intact ANSA shuttle, correctly landed on a stretch of beach
> a
> > few miles further down from the Statue of Liberty (and
> unfortunately
> > missed by Taylor and Nova, obviously), COULD be discovered by Milo,
> > and put to use...
> >
> > Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 6/24/2002 7:50:28 PM Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Lawgiver states at the beginning of the film that Apes had become slaves before
Cornelius & Zira arrived.

I don't think he says that Apes were slaves before the arrival of Zira and Cornelius. Just because he mentions Caesar being their "savior" doesn't mean slavery existed before the Ape-o-nauts arrival. He may have sent "their Savior" to be born onto this Earth to grow up to be the leader of the revolt when he came of age and slavery "was" in place.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 6/24/2002 11:24:13 PM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

>
> > > >*** Armando tells Caesar that the Plague  killed off "every dog
> > > >and cat on Earth"
> >
> >     Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv
> series...?
> > Gristle P.

I'm certainly not goig to set here and say this is "factual" or not, it is just a hypothetical theory. Anyway, if you listen to Cornelius tell the story of the plague, etc. he says "...by the time the plague was contained...," which leads me to believe that possibly, some dogs & cats survived. And since I do tie the tv series into the "original timeline" (from which Z&C came) this might explain the existance of the dogs in the tv series. Those dogs are the surviving remnants of those that centuries earlier avoided the plague.<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: mlccougar@... [mlccougar@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 26 June 2002 10:20
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: re:Timeline issues

In a message dated 6/24/2002 7:50:28 PM Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Lawgiver states at the beginning of the film that Apes had become slaves before
Cornelius & Zira arrived.

I don't think he says that Apes were slaves before the arrival of Zira and Cornelius. Just because he mentions Caesar being their "savior" doesn't mean slavery existed before the Ape-o-nauts arrival. He may have sent "their Savior" to be born onto this Earth to grow up to be the leader of the revolt when he came of age and slavery "was" in place.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Very good points Michael. They were probably trying to keep their
options open.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> I still think the end of Battle was intended to be left OPEN.
>
> I also think this was in order to facilitate a further story, but
not the
> following year as had been the trend.
>
> Who is to say that it is not possible that a month after the final
Battle
> scene the Lawgiver's attitudes and subsequent writings changed?
>
> Maybe there is a series of Lawgivers.
>
> Nothing is concluded, but I am of the belief that there are 2
timelines. I
> am also of the belief that while some things have changed, the
outcome may
> be similar. Otherwise, why not kill off the Mutants? They left
the
> possibility for the same bomb to one day destroy Earth.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 26 June 2002 3:48
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: re:Timeline issues
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > > I don't think that applies in this case.
> >
> > The operative word here being 'think' cause you don't know. And
> > neither do I for that matter. All we have are our own
interpetations
> > and assumptions. I admitt that both theories have validity. Why
are
> > you afraid to do the same? Reminds me of those that tried to
forbid
> > the teaching of evolution.
> >
> >
> > > We may not know with 100% certainty what happens after BATTLE,
but
> > we do know
> > > with 100% certainty that the timeline not only has been
changed but
> > has been
> > > drastically changed. .
> >
> > No we don't know this. To quote Zaius, "Don't speak to me in
> > absolutes the evidence is contestable".
> >
> > > The mention of Aldo's name in the scene where Cornelius is
talking
> > proves that
> > > the Corrington's intention for BATTLE was to clearly show that
> > Caesar had
> > > "changed lanes". Paul Dehn took out Aldo's name from the
scene (I
> > can see the
> > > revision in my script) but that doesn't change the fact that
> > Cornelius still
> > > said it in ESCAPE and therefore it is still "canon".
> >
> > You stated in another post that Cornelius was lying about the
> > timeframe of Apes becoming slaves and revolting to protect his
> > family. So why wouldn't he lie about the name of revolt leader
and
> > purposely pick a gorilla name for the same reason.
> >
> >
> > >The bottom line is that
> > > the "changed lanes" concept was so tightly connected to the
> > Corrington's BATTLE
> > > script that the only way Dehn could have credibly changed it
back
> > into a
> > > circular timeline would have been to have Aldo kill Caesar
instead
> > of the other
> > > way around. But that ending which Dehn wanted was rejected by
> > Jacobs.
> >
> > The only reason Jacobs rejected it was that he didn't want the
ending
> > to be a downer. The Corringtons themselves have acknowledged the
tear
> > at the end was meant to indicate that they hadn't changed lanes
and
> > history would proceed as before. Dehn always said it was a
circle and
> > he wrote the final draft of Battle. Jacobs even commented that
the
> > intention was to show how the world of the first film was
created. In
> > the DVD box set the timeline included on the Battle DVD shows a
> > circular timeline. So the writers, producer and studio all say
it was
> > a circular timeline. I think they carry more weight than either
you
> > or I on the subject.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > None of the things you mentioned qualifies as "evidence" for a
> > circular
> > > timeline. Just because the virus happens in both timelines
does not
> > > make the timeline circular. Why would it? Just because the
nuclear
> > > war occurs in both timelines does not make the timeline
circular.
> > Just
> > > because the apes become slaves in both timelines does not make
the
> > timeline
> > > circular. There is simply no reason that either Caesar or the
> > apeanauts
> > > would affect any of these things. The effect that
> > Caesar's "changing lanes" had
> > > on the timeline was to his OWN culture, the same culture as the
> > Lawgiver. The
> > > statues point out that the Lawgiver was influenced by Caesar
in the
> > altered
> > > timeline as greatly as Zaius was influenced by the Lawgiver in
the
> > original
> > > timeline.
> >
> >
> > Nothing you mention qualifies as evidence either. There is no
> > conclusive evidence for either theory because there's over 1300
of
> > untold history left at the end of Battle. Thus all we have are
our
> > own interpetations.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

I'm not sure, don't get me wrong, but I always took the end of Battle to be
a slight downer. The gorilla pulling the human girl's hair (or was it the
other way around?) - why would they choose to do film if not to show that it
is in our nature to fight (even when we are young and the enemy is boys or
girls)?

And the tear of Caesar - why? If there is a definite happy future, why
bother? Then again, the future is always uncertain. Who would have
predicted September 11?

I still think there were 2 timelines but I think some of the scriptwriting
shows that different writers had different opinions, and when Dehn's script
was re-written, they forgot to change other things for the sake of
consistency.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 26 June 2002 10:31
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Timeline issues
>
>
> Very good points Michael. They were probably trying to keep their
> options open.
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > I still think the end of Battle was intended to be left OPEN.
> >
> > I also think this was in order to facilitate a further story, but
> not the
> > following year as had been the trend.
> >
> > Who is to say that it is not possible that a month after the final
> Battle
> > scene the Lawgiver's attitudes and subsequent writings changed?
> >
> > Maybe there is a series of Lawgivers.
> >
> > Nothing is concluded, but I am of the belief that there are 2
> timelines. I
> > am also of the belief that while some things have changed, the
> outcome may
> > be similar. Otherwise, why not kill off the Mutants? They left
> the
> > possibility for the same bomb to one day destroy Earth.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 26 June 2002 3:48
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: re:Timeline issues
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > > > I don't think that applies in this case.
> > >
> > > The operative word here being 'think' cause you don't know. And
> > > neither do I for that matter. All we have are our own
> interpetations
> > > and assumptions. I admitt that both theories have validity. Why
> are
> > > you afraid to do the same? Reminds me of those that tried to
> forbid
> > > the teaching of evolution.
> > >
> > >
> > > > We may not know with 100% certainty what happens after BATTLE,
> but
> > > we do know
> > > > with 100% certainty that the timeline not only has been
> changed but
> > > has been
> > > > drastically changed. .
> > >
> > > No we don't know this. To quote Zaius, "Don't speak to me in
> > > absolutes the evidence is contestable".
> > >
> > > > The mention of Aldo's name in the scene where Cornelius is
> talking
> > > proves that
> > > > the Corrington's intention for BATTLE was to clearly show that
> > > Caesar had
> > > > "changed lanes". Paul Dehn took out Aldo's name from the
> scene (I
> > > can see the
> > > > revision in my script) but that doesn't change the fact that
> > > Cornelius still
> > > > said it in ESCAPE and therefore it is still "canon".
> > >
> > > You stated in another post that Cornelius was lying about the
> > > timeframe of Apes becoming slaves and revolting to protect his
> > > family. So why wouldn't he lie about the name of revolt leader
> and
> > > purposely pick a gorilla name for the same reason.
> > >
> > >
> > > >The bottom line is that
> > > > the "changed lanes" concept was so tightly connected to the
> > > Corrington's BATTLE
> > > > script that the only way Dehn could have credibly changed it
> back
> > > into a
> > > > circular timeline would have been to have Aldo kill Caesar
> instead
> > > of the other
> > > > way around. But that ending which Dehn wanted was rejected by
> > > Jacobs.
> > >
> > > The only reason Jacobs rejected it was that he didn't want the
> ending
> > > to be a downer. The Corringtons themselves have acknowledged the
> tear
> > > at the end was meant to indicate that they hadn't changed lanes
> and
> > > history would proceed as before. Dehn always said it was a
> circle and
> > > he wrote the final draft of Battle. Jacobs even commented that
> the
> > > intention was to show how the world of the first film was
> created. In
> > > the DVD box set the timeline included on the Battle DVD shows a
> > > circular timeline. So the writers, producer and studio all say
> it was
> > > a circular timeline. I think they carry more weight than either
> you
> > > or I on the subject.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > None of the things you mentioned qualifies as "evidence" for a
> > > circular
> > > > timeline. Just because the virus happens in both timelines
> does not
> > > > make the timeline circular. Why would it? Just because the
> nuclear
> > > > war occurs in both timelines does not make the timeline
> circular.
> > > Just
> > > > because the apes become slaves in both timelines does not make
> the
> > > timeline
> > > > circular. There is simply no reason that either Caesar or the
> > > apeanauts
> > > > would affect any of these things. The effect that
> > > Caesar's "changing lanes" had
> > > > on the timeline was to his OWN culture, the same culture as the
> > > Lawgiver. The
> > > > statues point out that the Lawgiver was influenced by Caesar
> in the
> > > altered
> > > > timeline as greatly as Zaius was influenced by the Lawgiver in
> the
> > > original
> > > > timeline.
> > >
> > >
> > > Nothing you mention qualifies as evidence either. There is no
> > > conclusive evidence for either theory because there's over 1300
> of
> > > untold history left at the end of Battle. Thus all we have are
> our
> > > own interpetations.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 6/25/2002 12:49:41 PM Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

You stated in another post that Cornelius was lying about the
timeframe of Apes becoming slaves and revolting to protect his
family. So why wouldn't he lie about the name of revolt leader and
purposely pick a gorilla name for the same reason.

You know, it is never specified that Aldo in the original timeline was a gorilla. And whose to say just because Aldo is a gorilla in "Battle," that the original was too? I mean there's no saying what certain name would apply to whatever species of ape. And, though I don't consider it "canon" at all, (to me it's just a basis for the movies,) in Boulle's novel, the first ape that talked on Soror was a chimpanzee. Now, if you were to take the premise of the first speaking ape from that book, then it could very well be that a chimp was the first to speak in the Apes original timeline as well.<.html

>and assumptions. I admitt that both theories have validity. Why are
>you afraid to do the same? Reminds me of those that tried to forbid
>the teaching of evolution.

I am "afraid" to admit it simply because I believe that there is no way at all
that the BATTLE Lawgiver wrote or spoke the same words "Beware of the Beast
Man..." that he did in PLANET's Sacred Scrolls. And it just doesn't make sense
to me that on such a crucial issue the Lawgiver's views could have been twisted
around into their exact opposite beliefs. In my view this is simply stretching
things too far past the bounds of credibility but you are free to disagree.

>You stated in another post that Cornelius was lying about the
>timeframe of Apes becoming slaves and revolting to protect his
>family. So why wouldn't he lie about the name of revolt leader and
>purposely pick a gorilla name for the same reason.

Both the Corringtons and Paul Dehn meant for the BATTLE Aldo to be
the same as the ESCAPE Aldo. I won't say that a character is lying or
mistaken unless there is no other possible explanation. Cornelius would
have no reason to lie about the name if the Sacred Scrolls had said "Caesar"
instead of saying "Aldo" because Cornelius named his son "Milo".

>>The bottom line is that
>> the "changed lanes" concept was so tightly connected to the
>Corrington's BATTLE
>> script that the only way Dehn could have credibly changed it back
>into a
>> circular timeline would have been to have Aldo kill Caesar instead
>of the other
>> way around. But that ending which Dehn wanted was rejected by
>Jacobs.
>
>The only reason Jacobs rejected it was that he didn't want the ending
>to be a downer. The Corringtons themselves have acknowledged the tear
>at the end was meant to indicate that they hadn't changed lanes and
>history would proceed as before. Dehn always said it was a circle and
>he wrote the final draft of Battle. Jacobs even commented that the
>intention was to show how the world of the first film was created. In
>the DVD box set the timeline included on the Battle DVD shows a
>circular timeline. So the writers, producer and studio all say it was
>a circular timeline. I think they carry more weight than either you
>or I on the subject.

Every official "timeline" I have seen about POTA has been a joke. The
Corringtons didn't put the tear in, Joyce was speculating about what
she thought Dehn could have wanted it to mean. Joyce Corrington also said
"Wasn't that stupid?" [Russo p212] about Dehn putting in the tear. Joyce
said that because the tear simply didn't make any sense without Dehn making
other major changes to the ending. The tear can mean anything (it seems like
a mutant illusion to me) or nothing so you have to look at the story.

The story of the BATTLE script from what I've read went pretty much like this.
Paul Dehn worked on the original script. He wanted a circular timeline so in
his script he had Aldo kill Caesar, and thus Caesar became irrelevent to
history. Note that Dehn himself created the "Aldo" character in ESCAPE,
CONQUEST, and BATTLE and like the Corringtons had intended for them all to be
the same. Jacobs didn't like Dehn's ending, and then Dehn left and the
Corringtons were given the script. The Corringtons kept a lot of Dehn's
characters and a few of his overall basic story concepts. The Corringtons then
wrote a story where the concept of Caesar "changing lanes" was tightly
integrated into the story line itself. (See the Marvel adaptation which makes
more sense). At the very end of the process Dehn was given the script again.
Dehn couldn't do much without major changes at that point so he made a few
tweaks like the tear (and changing Breck to Kolp?) and he also polished up a
lot of the dialogue. Unfortunately since Dehn couldn't make a circular
timeline without butchering the story because of the way the Corringtons had
made the "changing lanes" tightly integrated with the story the overall effect
of Dehn's last minute changes was simply to dumb down the story and make it
harder to understand than it was supposed to be.

I bet Dehn didn't want BATTLE to cancel his cool BENEATH ending. But I
like both endings. Both an optimistic ending and a pessimestic ending
is okay with me as long as it is a *good* ending.

>Nothing you mention qualifies as evidence either. There is no
>conclusive evidence for either theory because there's over 1300 of

Besides the Lawgiver and the Sacred Scrolls? The BATTLE timeline has at least
700 YEARS of "humans and apes living in peace and harmony." That is a *big*
achievement on the POTA. So we already have a huge deviation from the
centuries of "carniverous gorillas" of the PLANET timelne to the centuries of
peaceful coexistence in the BATTLE timeline.

.htmlIn a message dated 6/25/2002 7:30:33 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Good point.

Is it stated specifically anywhere that apes were slaves prior to Zira and Corn?  Caesar is the "Saviour" no matter who or waht is enslaved or when.

Michael


No, nowhere that I know of says such a thing at all. If you go buy those damnable dates in the movies, the plague mentioned in "Conquest" would have been in 1982 or so. It is after this plague that small primates (monkeys) became pets, moving up the primate ladder to Apes being slaves. <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 6/25/2002 7:45:53 PM Central Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

I am "afraid" to admit it simply because I believe that there is no way at all
that the BATTLE Lawgiver wrote or spoke the same words "Beware of the Beast
Man..." that he did in PLANET's Sacred Scrolls.  

You are absolutley right on this one. There is no way that The Lawgiver in "Battle" is even remotely the same as the one mentioned in "Planet" & "Beneath."<.html

As McDowall pointed out in Behind it could of been a tear of joy.
But he also states the since it was the last film a lot of questions
would go unanswered.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> And the tear of Caesar - why? If there is a definite happy
future, why
> bother?

But maybe, if they were lying about the timeframe, the were lying
about the name of the first ape to speak. Maybe the secret scroll
said that ape was named Caeser (not know that later Armando would
rename their baby Caeser) and since they wouldn't want their savoir
hunted down and killed by humans they picked a generic name.

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/25/2002 12:49:41 PM Central Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> >
> > You stated in another post that Cornelius was lying about the
> > timeframe of Apes becoming slaves and revolting to protect his
> > family. So why wouldn't he lie about the name of revolt leader
and
> > purposely pick a gorilla name for the same reason.
>
> You know, it is never specified that Aldo in the original timeline
was a
> gorilla. And whose to say just because Aldo is a gorilla
in "Battle," that
> the original was too? I mean there's no saying what certain name
would apply
> to whatever species of ape. And, though I don't consider
it "canon" at all,
> (to me it's just a basis for the movies,) in Boulle's novel, the
first ape
> that talked on Soror was a chimpanzee. Now, if you were to take
the premise
> of the first speaking ape from that book, then it could very well
be that a
> chimp was the first to speak in the Apes original timeline as well.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:

> I am "afraid" to admit it simply because I believe that there is

no way at all

> that the BATTLE Lawgiver wrote or spoke the same words "Beware of

the Beast

> Man..." that he did in PLANET's Sacred Scrolls. And it just

doesn't make sense

> to me that on such a crucial issue the Lawgiver's views could have

been twisted

> around into their exact opposite beliefs. In my view this is

simply stretching

> things too far past the bounds of credibility but you are free to

disagree.

The Lawgiver in Battle lived 1300 year before Planet. Zauis states
that the Sacred Scrolls were written 1200 years before. Thus it's
not the same Lawgiver. And as the Germans and Russians can tell you,
a lot can happen in a 100 years.

> Both the Corringtons and Paul Dehn meant for the BATTLE Aldo to be
> the same as the ESCAPE Aldo. I won't say that a character is

lying or

> mistaken unless there is no other possible explanation. Cornelius

would

> have no reason to lie about the name if the Sacred Scrolls had

said "Caesar"

> instead of saying "Aldo" because Cornelius named his son "Milo".
>
>
> >>The bottom line is that
> >> the "changed lanes" concept was so tightly connected to the
> >Corrington's BATTLE
> >> script that the only way Dehn could have credibly changed it

back

> >into a
> >> circular timeline would have been to have Aldo kill Caesar

instead

> >of the other
> >> way around. But that ending which Dehn wanted was rejected by
> >Jacobs.
> >
> >The only reason Jacobs rejected it was that he didn't want the

ending

> >to be a downer. The Corringtons themselves have acknowledged the

tear

> >at the end was meant to indicate that they hadn't changed lanes

and

> >history would proceed as before. Dehn always said it was a circle

and

> >he wrote the final draft of Battle. Jacobs even commented that the
> >intention was to show how the world of the first film was

created. In

> >the DVD box set the timeline included on the Battle DVD shows a
> >circular timeline. So the writers, producer and studio all say it

was

> >a circular timeline. I think they carry more weight than either

you

> >or I on the subject.
>
> Every official "timeline" I have seen about POTA has been a joke.

The

> Corringtons didn't put the tear in, Joyce was speculating about

what

> she thought Dehn could have wanted it to mean. Joyce Corrington

also said

> "Wasn't that stupid?" [Russo p212] about Dehn putting in the

tear. Joyce

> said that because the tear simply didn't make any sense without

Dehn making

> other major changes to the ending. The tear can mean anything (it

seems like

> a mutant illusion to me) or nothing so you have to look at the

story.

>
> The story of the BATTLE script from what I've read went pretty

much like this.

> Paul Dehn worked on the original script. He wanted a circular

timeline so in

> his script he had Aldo kill Caesar, and thus Caesar became

irrelevent to

> history. Note that Dehn himself created the "Aldo" character in

ESCAPE,

> CONQUEST, and BATTLE and like the Corringtons had intended for

them all to be

> the same. Jacobs didn't like Dehn's ending, and then Dehn left

and the

> Corringtons were given the script. The Corringtons kept a lot of

Dehn's

> characters and a few of his overall basic story concepts. The

Corringtons then

> wrote a story where the concept of Caesar "changing lanes" was

tightly

> integrated into the story line itself. (See the Marvel adaptation

which makes

> more sense). At the very end of the process Dehn was given the

script again.

> Dehn couldn't do much without major changes at that point so he

made a few

> tweaks like the tear (and changing Breck to Kolp?) and he also

polished up a

> lot of the dialogue. Unfortunately since Dehn couldn't make a

circular

> timeline without butchering the story because of the way the

Corringtons had

> made the "changing lanes" tightly integrated with the story the

overall effect

> of Dehn's last minute changes was simply to dumb down the story

and make it

> harder to understand than it was supposed to be.
>
> I bet Dehn didn't want BATTLE to cancel his cool BENEATH ending.

But I

> like both endings. Both an optimistic ending and a pessimestic

ending

> is okay with me as long as it is a *good* ending.

Well you're right about one thing, Battle is a mess. Too many
different people tinkered with the script. However, no where does
Joyce Corrington state that their goal was to indicate that Caeser
had changed lanes. In fact when she put downt he tear at the end she
questioned why they cut the Alpha-Omega scenes, that she and her
husband put in, because those scenes would of served the same
dramatic purpose.

> Besides the Lawgiver and the Sacred Scrolls? The BATTLE timeline

has at least

> 700 YEARS of "humans and apes living in peace and harmony." That

is a *big*

> achievement on the POTA. So we already have a huge deviation from

the

> centuries of "carniverous gorillas" of the PLANET timelne to the

centuries of

> peaceful coexistence in the BATTLE timeline.

Who said there were centuries of carniverous gorillas? Even if there
were they lived in the Forbidden Zone not in Ape City. Maybe they
were followers of Aldo that had been exiled by Caeser and had been
mutated by the radiation.

Attachments :

As shown here, the Lawgiver states apes were slaves, THEN God sent a saviour. This leads into the flashbacks from Escape. The indication is that apes were slaves before Cornelius & Zira arrived.

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:
> No, nowhere that I know of says such a thing at all. If you go buy those
> damnable dates in the movies, the plague mentioned in "Conquest" would have
> been in 1982 or so. It is after this plague that small primates (monkeys)
> became pets, moving up the primate ladder to Apes being slaves.

>From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
>Here is the Dark Horse contact info. If they start getting a bunch of
>requests from ape fans they would at least start thinking about it.

I hate to disappoint anyone, but Dark Horse has a very strict rule about
not reading un-solicited ideas for franchised titles like Star Wars, Buffy,
POTA, etc. If anyone who isn't well-known sends pitches that weren't
solicited, they're obligated to return them un-read. The only way to go
about it is to send them a query letter asking permission to pitch an idea
and explaining your background (they only use experienced writers). If
they feel you're qualified, they'll send you their guidelines for
submitting, at which point you can pitch. If these guidelines aren't
followed, you probably won't get far. I hate to be a downer -- I'm just
trying to be helpful to those serious about such an attempt. It's not easy
to break into comics, and Dark Horse has become very exclusive in recent
years. Their current policy is to use big-name writers, which is why, even
though I've done work for them in the past, I can't seem to get the time of
day from them lately. :)

Agreed the one in Battle lived 100 years before the one mentioned in
Planet.

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:
> You are absolutley right on this one. There is no way that The
Lawgiver in
> "Battle" is even remotely the same as the one mentioned
in "Planet" &
> "Beneath."

.htmlIn a message dated 6/25/2002 9:00:26 PM Central Standard Time, handleyr@... writes:

From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
>Here is the Dark Horse contact info.  If they start getting a bunch of
>requests from ape fans they would at least start thinking about it.

I hate to disappoint anyone, but Dark Horse has a very strict rule about
not reading un-solicited ideas for franchised titles like Star Wars, Buffy,
POTA, etc.  If anyone who isn't well-known sends pitches that weren't
solicited, they're obligated to return them un-read.  The only way to go
about it is to send them a query letter asking permission to pitch an idea
and explaining your background (they only use experienced writers).  If
they feel you're qualified, they'll send you their guidelines for
submitting, at which point you can pitch.  If these guidelines aren't
followed, you probably won't get far.  I hate to be a downer -- I'm just
trying to be helpful to those serious about such an attempt.  It's not easy
to break into comics, and Dark Horse has become very exclusive in recent
years.  Their current policy is to use big-name writers, which is why, even
though I've done work for them in the past, I can't seem to get the time of
day from them lately.  :)

I'm sure you're right about their policies regarding unsolicited material. However, what we are trying to do is get them to just do a line of Classic Apes comics. Sure, it'd be cool if they'd take our suggestions, and/or if any writers in the group had anything published, but you're probably right: It more than likely won't happen. We can however write them, email them, (call even) and suggest that they do a line of comics based on the original concepts and ideas.

Maybe if they got enough reader (or would be reader) suggestions that they do such a series, then they'd go ahead and do one. <.html

.html

The thing I find hard to explain is how the heck
Milo moves Taylor's ship from the bottom of the middle of a lake to the shore.

Hey, if he can fly a ship he only half understands, then getting it off the bottom of the lkae should be easy!

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 6/25/2002 9:01:03 PM Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

As shown here, the Lawgiver states apes were slaves, THEN God sent a savior. This leads into the flashbacks from Escape. The indication is that apes were slaves before Cornelius & Zira arrived.

Yes, but that line is taken out of context. The entire line is: "But in the fullness of time evil men betrayed God's trust, and in disobedience to His holy word, waged bloody wars not only against his own kind, but against the Apes, whom they reduced to slavery."

To me, that just means that over time, Man warred with the Apes. At the time of the Ape-o-nauts arrival the Apes weren't anything but zoo creatures, circus performers, and dwelling in the wild. There is no indication (other than an interpretation of the line you submitted) that they were enslaved, or even being imported for domestication.

I see where you could interpret the line the way that you're implying it. I however don't agree. I'm sure had the Apes actually been enslaved at the time of Z&C's arrival, they would have more than likely been seen as a threat to Mankind from the get-go. There wouldn't have been the "celebrity treatment." I'm sure everything Hasslein said about them being a threat would have been taken a lot more seriously, as there would have been an actual "threat." He could have said "Look Mr. President, we have to destroy these two before they can influence the slave population." And I'm sure he would have gotten his way. Even without any of their testimony, just the existence of two talking apes amongst the slave population would not have been taken kindly to by those in charge.<.html