hhh

________

If you get this letter, reply to me.

________

Ok, everone, lets get this ball rolling! TO start with, lets choose a nick
name, now, those who asked for one, please reply to all and say the name you
asked me for. otherwise, pick one, if I'm right, Only Caesar(me)
Taylor(MIBHQ1) nd Dr Zaius(I forget the SN!) atre taken,...so please reply to
all w/ your nick name. I llso know some peopel wanted mnames like Monkey
Princess, and Ape Man.

Also, submit your POTA questions/comments to us all, by sending them to
"pota@egroups.com". Please start this off with me, it won't workl unless you
all contribute questions. By the way, anyone want to hearr my theroy in how
Aldo talked 450 years before Corneilous said he would?
-Caesar

__________

Attachments :

In a message dated 9/11/98 10:29:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BlakerG writes:

<< Subj: Re: [pota] POTA liast starts!
Date: 9/11/98 10:29:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: <A HREF="mailto:BlakerG">BlakerG</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:MFLulder">MFLulder</A>

Hey I'm Chris,
the one who owns Chris's Planet of the Apes site. I'd like to go by the name
ape man. I'm curious as to how many people are signed up right now, and where
should I tell people that visit my site to subscribe, whats the email address?
Also I'd be interested in hearing you theory on Aldo.
Sincerely,
The Ape Man >>
Please either reply to all, or put " POTA@egroups.com" in the CC box...that's
how we get the whole list to get a message. I do not know how many people are4
on it...heh...
If you, Chris, or anyone, wants to advertise, just say that to sign up, You e-
mail POTA-subscribe@egroups.com, and to send a message, send to
pota@egroups.com

I''m gonna type up my Alldo theoy tomorow., andthen send it out.

Ok, guys and sals, you gotta help me out. Everyone type out somthing you
wonder, like, or dislike about POTA, and send it to "Pota@egroups.com".
Caesar
PS. Sorry, My aldo thing was on my Alpha Smart, which I just fixed. I'll be
sending it soon.

__________

Dear Ape group,
Does anyone know where I can find a good POTA timeline?
Sincerely,
Chris
(Ape Man)

__________

In a message dated 9/18/98 10:14:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BlakerG writes:

<< Dear Ape group,
Does anyone know where I can find a good POTA timeline?
Sincerely,
Chris
(Ape Man) >>
Yes, try www.SpleenWOrld.com It has a few flaws, butover all, it's great!
Thanks for asking! We need more peopel to talk!
-Caesar
"Ape Shall Never Kill Ape"

__________

Attention, all list members. Roddy McDowell, who played Caesar, COorneilous,
and Galen, on the POTA moves and TV show is dying. He has a terminal case of
Cancer. He discovered this on his 70th B-Day,shortly after celebrating the
POTA movies' 30th anniversery. I implore you all to pray for him, and send him
a card or somthing expressing your sorrow. If you need his address, ask me.
-Caesar.

__________

I am thinking of writing a novel based on planet of the ape characters. is
anyone on this list employed at FOX -- and would you know who would be the
right person to talk to regarding getting permission to do this?

thanks.




_____________ __________

Please send Roddy some get well cards at this address

Roddy Mc Dowall
3110 Brookdale Rd.
Studio City, CA 91604

-Caesar.

__________

In a message dated 9/21/98 5:30:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<< I am thinking of writing a novel based on planet of the ape characters. is
anyone on this list employed at FOX -- and would you know who would be the
right person to talk to regarding getting permission to do this?

thanks.

>>

unfortunatly I do not know. However, I would try sending the Fox Corporation
and asking them.

-Caesar

__________

Ok, if you notice, the sacred scrolls are a diluted version of the truth,...
which had been written, and re-written time and time again, hence the reason
Dr. Zaius could even HOLD the scholls. Also, Corneilous is an Archeoligist,
who, for all we know, MAY have discovered missing parts of the sarcer scholls,
namely the ones about Aldo and the ape revolution. I belive that Corneilous
mmisdiagnosed the time between events in the scrolls, as the language could
have changed in a couple thousand or so years. and added an extra zero or
two... 500 becomming 50 or 5. Which is plasable.I also belive that the
influencial Orangatanges and Gorrillas on the Coinsel which replaced Caesar
after his death made a compromise, The gorillas, some of which consittered
Aldo a hero put the leader of the Ape revolution in as Aldo, and the
Orangatanges put thee Law GIver, who also was Caesar in as an Orangatange.,
That explains how Chips went from leaders to the lowest ape.
Please, everyone, try to coment on this...maybe we can get discussion going!
-Caesar

__________

My comment would be that you should run spell-check on your emails, before
you send them out.

>Ok, if you notice, the sacred scrolls are a diluted version of the truth,...
>which had been written, and re-written time and time again, hence the reason
>Dr. Zaius could even HOLD the scholls.

Aren't all religious texts distillution of truths, designed to appease the
whims of the rulers? Physically re-writing does not change the truth . . .
it is the involvement of people who want to bend the truth to their own
ends that causes them to change --- which you DO discuss below . . .

>Also, Corneilous is an Archeoligist,
>who, for all we know, MAY have discovered missing parts of the sarcer scholls,
>namely the ones about Aldo and the ape revolution.

Nope -- Cornelius was digging in a cave (near New York) that contained
relics of 20th century man . . . and then primitive ape culture above it.
As we know, Caesar lived in the desert outside of Los Angeles --- probably
Orange County of Riverside -- so Cornelius would NOT have been digging
through remains that would contain the scrolls.

>I belive that Corneilous
>mmisdiagnosed the time between events in the scrolls, as the language could
>have changed in a couple thousand or so years.

Since EVERYTHING was in English (which SHOULD have tipped Taylor off, right
when he first met the apes) there is a very unlikely chance that the
language would have changed any . . .


and added an extra zero or

>two... 500 becomming 50 or 5. Which is plasable.I also belive that the
>influencial Orangatanges and Gorrillas on the Coinsel which replaced Caesar
>after his death made a compromise, The gorillas, some of which consittered
>Aldo a hero put the leader of the Ape revolution in as Aldo, and the
>Orangatanges put thee Law GIver, who also was Caesar in as an Orangatange.,

Your getting a little bit confusing. Are you saying that after Caesar dies,
the O + G's wrote him out of history --- and decided to give Aldo the
honors of being the first Ape to speak? Well, the whole thing is a bit
'iffy' -- how did all the other apes learn to talk? I think that in BFTPOA
--- alot of the O's supported Caesar -- they didn't seem like power-hungry
apes (IE: they revered him, why would they do that to him?) and the
Lawgiver seemed very honest. It seems strange that they would completely
erase the one who freed them -- though you never know what happens with
power . . .

>That explains how Chips went from leaders to the lowest ape.
>Please, everyone, try to coment on this...maybe we can get discussion going!
>-Caesar

I think that the Chimps are NOT the lowest apes . . . as soldiers are
always lower than scientists, when you look at 'rank' in the world.




_____________ __________

Who gives a hell about spelling, in a disscussion group the ideas are more
important than grammar. Anyway the Aldo theory is pretty interesting and could
be possible, though there were some flaws in your theory like Sam pointed out
in the early email.

__________

Attachments :

In a message dated 9/22/98 1:38:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Scab382 writes:

<< this theory WOULD make sense, but that is only if by Cornelius and Zira
traveling back in time, they didn't create a new time line. See, when they
came back and Zira gave birth to Ceasar, they created a time paradox. I can't
explain the apes ability to speak as early on as they did; perhaps the
creators of the movies needed it and they just didn't think to explain it. as
you all know, evolution (even with apes) is a long involved process that takes
more than twenty years. >>

I think it's a working paradox, like the ones in the TV Show Gargoyles...just
ask if you want an example.

Also, I can explain all but Lisa talking if you guys and gals want...

One more thing, in the future, no offense, please reply to the
list(pota@egroups.com), that way we all canread the responce. unless,
ufcourse, it's a personal thing, like if you hink I have myt head up my @$$ of
somthing...sorry to single you out.

-Caesar.

In a message dated 9/22/98 10:36:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<<
Aren't all religious texts distillution of truths, designed to appease the
whims of the rulers? Physically re-writing does not change the truth . . .
it is the involvement of people who want to bend the truth to their own
ends that causes them to change --- which you DO discuss below . . . >>
Thanks! This is what we need! Real in depth discussions! Thank you...maybe
this'll get the group to start talking!

Ok. your right! I need to run spell check. what I meant is that the sacred
scrolls could have been re written differently, then the originals, written by
Caesar, destroyed.

<<
Nope -- Cornelius was digging in a cave (near New York) that contained
relics of 20th century man . . . and then primitive ape culture above it.
As we know, Caesar lived in the desert outside of Los Angeles --- probably
Orange County of Riverside -- so Cornelius would NOT have been digging
through remains that would contain the scrolls.>>
Not that time, but like present day archeologists, he certainly would have had
many digs before this one...


<<Since EVERYTHING was in English (which SHOULD have tipped Taylor off, right
when he first met the apes) there is a very unlikely chance that the
language would have changed any . . .>> Yeah, other then Taylor is an idiot,
which we know isn't true, I have no idea how to explain that one...all I mean
is that words might have been changed...like I doubt a grandmother ape would
go" You little monkey!" to her grandchild or something...other words could
have been changed too.





<<Your getting a little bit confusing. Are you saying that after Caesar dies,
the O + G's wrote him out of history --- and decided to give Aldo the
honors of being the first Ape to speak? Well, the whole thing is a bit
'iffy' -- how did all the other apes learn to talk? I think that in BFTPOA
--- alot of the O's supported Caesar -- they didn't seem like power-hungry
apes (IE: they revered him, why would they do that to him?) and the
Lawgiver seemed very honest. It seems strange that they would completely
erase the one who freed them -- though you never know what happens with
power . . .>>

I'm not talking right after. In fact, I know Virgil would NEVER let that
happen... I''m talking years down the line. I believe that the Gorillas held
Aldo as a hero, and that they, and the newer Orangatanges, who never knew
Caesar personally would change it...sort of like how hardly anyone knows that
Benedict Arnold was also one of the greatest heroes of the revolution. Even
though he turned traitor...before he did he was about as respected as
Washington, if not more. Also, the Lawgiver is based on Caesar, who is very
honest. It only takes one generation or corupt apes to change things...

<<
I think that the Chimps are NOT the lowest apes . . . as soldiers are
always lower than scientists, when you look at 'rank' in the world.>>
I believe I will quote my partial role model and namesake when I say "Ah, in
human history" In the Ape society, Scientists seem to be regarded as those who
go against religion and nature. It seems that the Social higherarchy goes
Organatanges, Gorillas, and Chimpanzees, with a few exceptions.

Also, you seem VERY knowledgeable in POTA, if you haven't chosen a nick name
already, might I suggest taking the name Virgil? You don't have to of course,
you don't even have to use or take a nick name. Just a thought.

-Caesar
"Now, fight like Apes!"




__________

><< this theory WOULD make sense, but that is only if by Cornelius and Zira
>traveling back in time, they didn't create a new time line. See, when they
>came back and Zira gave birth to Ceasar, they created a time paradox. I can't
>explain the apes ability to speak as early on as they did; perhaps the
>creators of the movies needed it and they just didn't think to explain it. as
>you all know, evolution (even with apes) is a long involved process that takes
>more than twenty years. >>
>
>I think it's a working paradox, like the ones in the TV Show Gargoyles...just
>ask if you want an example.

I think that for the sake of our discussions, one can't cop-out with "maybe
the creators of the movie needed it" -- because we ALL KNOW that there are
many holes in this story and the creators had some serious trouble trying
to make it all work. So, giving that answer keeps us away from coming up
with interesting explinations as to WHY it 'could have happened' the way it
did in the movies.


But I agree with you about Cornelius and Zira creating a new time line.
That was the theory of the scientist Victor Hasslein in Escape: that you
could create a new future when you went around the mobious loop . . . so it
is POSSIBLE that their arrival DID change the future . . . which is why the
revolution and talking apes happened as they did . . .

>
>Also, I can explain all but Lisa talking if you guys and gals want...

OH YES! please go for that!!!





_____________ __________

>Nope -- Cornelius was digging in a cave (near New York) that contained
>relics of 20th century man . . . and then primitive ape culture above it.
>As we know, Caesar lived in the desert outside of Los Angeles --- probably
>Orange County of Riverside -- so Cornelius would NOT have been digging
>through remains that would contain the scrolls.>>
>Not that time, but like present day archeologists, he certainly would have had
>many digs before this one...

But there is NO WAY that he could have gotten to california --- because
that would take AGES by foot, or even a horse . . . and i just don't think
they would risk it. they weren't even suppose to enter the forbidden zone,
so there is pretty much NO WAY that he would have gone so far as california
(he would not have known the place existed --- their maps didn't seem to
even reach New Jersey!). Also, considering that much of the country was
probably barren (as a result of the nuclear wars) i would doubt an ape or
man could travel that far.

Which, of course, leads to the question of how did the descendants of
Mendez get to New York City [in Beneath]. Anyone have any interesting
suggestions???

><<Since EVERYTHING was in English (which SHOULD have tipped Taylor off, right
>when he first met the apes) there is a very unlikely chance that the
>language would have changed any . . .>> Yeah, other then Taylor is an idiot,
>which we know isn't true, I have no idea how to explain that one...all I mean
>is that words might have been changed...like I doubt a grandmother ape would
>go" You little monkey!" to her grandchild or something...other words could
>have been changed too.

But I say "you little monkey!" to people all the time!


A further interesting paradox is that in the first movie, Taylor comments
that the planet has no moon --- and as we know the planet was the earth . .
. where did the moon go? do you think it got blown up???

>
><<Your getting a little bit confusing. Are you saying that after Caesar dies,
>the O + G's wrote him out of history --- and decided to give Aldo the
>honors of being the first Ape to speak? Well, the whole thing is a bit
>'iffy' -- how did all the other apes learn to talk? I think that in BFTPOA
>--- alot of the O's supported Caesar -- they didn't seem like power-hungry
>apes (IE: they revered him, why would they do that to him?) and the
>Lawgiver seemed very honest. It seems strange that they would completely
>erase the one who freed them -- though you never know what happens with
>power . . .>>
>
>I'm not talking right after. In fact, I know Virgil would NEVER let that
>happen... I''m talking years down the line. I believe that the Gorillas held
>Aldo as a hero, and that they, and the newer Orangatanges, who never knew
>Caesar personally would change it...sort of like how hardly anyone knows that
>Benedict Arnold was also one of the greatest heroes of the revolution. Even
>though he turned traitor...before he did he was about as respected as
>Washington, if not more. Also, the Lawgiver is based on Caesar, who is very
>honest. It only takes one generation or corupt apes to change things...

A few problems:
1. Caesar didn't do anything traitorous (that we know of) to drive his
society against him. You are right that Virgil never would have let it
happen . . .
2. Perhaps [to support YOUR theory] the killing of Aldo was the act that
led to his being outcast. He was the 2nd Ape to kill Ape . . .
3. But by THAT theory, nobody would support Aldo's rise to a historical
position, as he was the 1st ape to kill ape . . .
4. It makes no sense that the Lawgiver would be based on Caesar, yet be an
Orang . . .

>
><<
>I think that the Chimps are NOT the lowest apes . . . as soldiers are
>always lower than scientists, when you look at 'rank' in the world.>>
>I believe I will quote my partial role model and namesake when I say "Ah, in
>human history" In the Ape society, Scientists seem to be regarded as those who
>go against religion and nature. It seems that the Social higherarchy goes
>Organatanges, Gorillas, and Chimpanzees, with a few exceptions.

Thanks.

>
>Also, you seem VERY knowledgeable in POTA.

Sadly, that is true! I am thinking of writing a book --- but I have yet to
finalize where / what my story line will be . . .


if you haven't chosen a nick name

>already, might I suggest taking the name Virgil? You don't have to of course,
>you don't even have to use or take a nick name. Just a thought.

don't want a name, till i think of a good one. give me a book, mr. mayor --
and i will pick one myself.




_____________ __________

as you all know, Aldo was looked down upon at the end of BFPOTA for he was the
first ape to kill another ape (which is, of course, the most sacred law to
apes). At the time, everyone just thought that he was a bastard, but you'll
notice that if people in your present time period think that you're a bastard,
history will turn you into a monster. This goes to show that the Aldo that
Cornelius and Zira revered and knew legends of, was obviously a different
Aldo. OR if it was the same Aldo, the introduction of Caesr into the time
period that, for the most part, REWROTE the sacred scrolls as the 40th
century apes knew them, changed the circumstances around under which Aldo
became such an influetial character in ape history.
I believe thaat the key to understanding POTA is to recognize the difference
between Cornelius' timeline and Caesar's timeline: they're two completely
different things. Sinse the birth of Caesar and the introduction of his reign
over humans and apes (and the influence that came from that), Cornelius, Zira,
Zaius, Ursus, Julius, and ALL the apes living in the 40th century (or more
specifically, 3955/3978-whichever POTA movie you think presents the RIGHT
time) will not exist as they have been known to...and this goes as well for
all the apes leading up to that future.

__________

For now I'm going to explain what I think about the time deal. first offf, it
is utterly nessacary for Zirra and Corneillous to come back in time for Caesar
to lead the revolution. Thats odvious.

Now, this is a time loop, like the old one about the guy going back in time
and saving his childhood self from death. It is born in the time stream, and
continues for ever. I belive that the POTA continuium is a loop, not a highway
like Virgil thought.

See, if Caesar altered the future, Taylor would still land onPOTA, but whoo's
to say he'd meet Zirra and Corneilous, and they, along with Miloe would be
able to go back in tim and have young Milo, who would grow to be Caesar.

__________

In a message dated 9/22/98 5:32:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<< AY that he could have gotten to california --- because
that would take AGES by foot, or even a horse . . . and i just don't think
they would risk it. they weren't even suppose to enter the forbidden zone,
so there is pretty much NO WAY that he would have gone so far as california
(he would not have known the place existed --- their maps didn't seem to
even reach New Jersey!). Also, considering that much of the country was
probably barren (as a result of the nuclear wars) i would doubt an ape or
man could travel that far. >>
Who says the Scrolls stayed in LA...why not hhave the scrolls, or duplicates,
be brought closer to Ape City?
-Caesar
"Some day you will be astall as a king"

__________

In a message dated 9/22/98 5:32:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<<

Which, of course, leads to the question of how did the descendants of
Mendez get to New York City [in Beneath]. Anyone have any interesting
suggestions??? >>
I'll type one up after I type up my Apes speaking thing...they are actually
related...
<<But I say "you little monkey!" to people all the time!>>
Exactly! Not " You little human!"
-Caesar
"You murdered my son!"


__________

In a message dated 9/22/98 5:47:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Scab382@...
writes:

<< as you all know, Aldo was looked down upon at the end of BFPOTA for he was
the
first ape to kill another ape (which is, of course, the most sacred law to
apes). At the time, everyone just thought that he was a bastard, but you'll
notice that if people in your present time period think that you're a
bastard,
history will turn you into a monster. This goes to show that the Aldo that
Cornelius and Zira revered and knew legends of, was obviously a different
Aldo. OR if it was the same Aldo, the introduction of Caesr into the time
period that, for the most part, REWROTE the sacred scrolls as the 40th
century apes knew them, changed the circumstances around under which Aldo
became such an influetial character in ape history.
I believe thaat the key to understanding POTA is to recognize the difference
between Cornelius' timeline and Caesar's timeline: they're two completely
different things. Sinse the birth of Caesar and the introduction of his
reign
over humans and apes (and the influence that came from that), Cornelius,
Zira,
Zaius, Ursus, Julius, and ALL the apes living in the 40th century (or more
specifically, 3955/3978-whichever POTA movie you think presents the RIGHT
time) will not exist as they have been known to...and this goes as well for
all the apes leading up to that future. >>

Not really...remember, all those Apes sitting around the fire with Aldo, those
apes saw him fatally injure Corneilous...now, think about this...those apes go
home...they might have kids...They're kids are going to think Daddy's a hero.
so if Daddy thinks Aldo is good, and Daddy's a hero...they'll think the
same... Just my thoughts...
-Caesar
"I am the law"

__________

Whoever nuked the US wouldn't have nuked the whole entire thing, so they could
take over some parts of it after the government was knocked. If your gonna
nuke a country you want to go for just the stargetic points and main
population centers. So the Mendez guys could have just navigated their way
between the rad zones. Besides Mendez's gang was already living in radiative
slag, they were probably adjusted to certain amounts of radiation and just
mutated. As far as Cornelius and those guys going across the US it would take
forever, but it'd be possible to go across the US because most of radiation
would have dissipated by then.

Chris (Ape Man)

__________

The future would not be altered at all because without Cornelius and Zira
giving birth to Caesar. The Apes would never exist and the revolution probably
wouldn't have begun at all. The only way the time line would change is if C&Z
didn't go back in time. It was destined to happen. The thing I don't get is
how they got the space shuttle working, I mean the Apes didn't even know how
to make paper airplanes let alone space shuttles. It took us hundreds of years
to go hundreds of years since the first theories of flight to get to this
point. The apes did it in about a month or so.
Chris (Ape Man)

__________

>The future would not be altered at all because without Cornelius and Zira
>giving birth to Caesar. The Apes would never exist and the revolution probably
>wouldn't have begun at all. The only way the time line would change is if C&Z
>didn't go back in time. It was destined to happen. The thing I don't get is
>how they got the space shuttle working, I mean the Apes didn't even know how
>to make paper airplanes let alone space shuttles. It took us hundreds of years
>to go hundreds of years since the first theories of flight to get to this
>point. The apes did it in about a month or so.
>Chris (Ape Man)

Yeah! that's a REALLY tough question. Now, I have a theory on that one . .
. that takes a bit of suspension of disbelief. But let's just suppose that
Taylor helped them fix the ship!!!

WHEN! you ask, well -- nowhere in the movie timeline does it define HOW
MUCH TIME passed between Taylor discovering the statue of liberty and
falling into the fire and disappearing. So let's speculate that there were
three months between that time. And he decided to go back to the lake to
see if he could ressurrect his ship (perhaps because he thought HE could
use the ship to somehow get off the planet -- or at least get to a
different city). Maybe Cornelius had a similar idea . . . that the ship
would prove the existance of men from outerspace (that's his perception)
and get him out of the trouble he was in (hearsy). Maybe together they got
it working, but then Taylor left for some reason . . .

. . . would anyone else like to postulate on this theory . . . it needs work




_____________ __________

In a message dated 9/24/98 9:56:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<<
WHEN! you ask, well -- nowhere in the movie timeline does it define HOW
MUCH TIME passed between Taylor discovering the statue of liberty and
falling into the fire and disappearing. So let's speculate that there were
three months between that time. And he decided to go back to the lake to
see if he could ressurrect his ship (perhaps because he thought HE could
use the ship to somehow get off the planet -- or at least get to a
different city). Maybe Cornelius had a similar idea . . . that the ship
would prove the existance of men from outerspace (that's his perception)
and get him out of the trouble he was in (hearsy). Maybe together they got
it working, but then Taylor left for some reason . . .

. . . would anyone else like to postulate on this theory . . . it needs work

>> Hate to burst your bubble, but it shows Taylor riding from the Forbidden

Zone to the Mutant "trap" , so 3 months woldn't have past...sorry...
-Caesar
"Caesar permits"

__________

I don't think they would have been able resurrect the sunken space ship from
the lake. It looked pretty damn deep and all the instruements would be ruined
and even if they weren't they'd have to get a heavy ass crane to get the ship
out of the lake. The only ship they would have been able to work on would be
the one Brent crashed. By the time Brent crashed, Taylor was already with the
mutants. And Brent wouldn't have been able to help with the spaceship because
there wasn't really any lapse in time in that movie for him to be able to do
it. The only way the spaceship would have been able to worked on is if the ape
did on there own and it just goes to my arguement, how did the apes rebuild
and learn to fly within such a short peroid?

__________

>I don't think they would have been able resurrect the sunken space ship from
>the lake. It looked pretty damn deep and all the instruements would be ruined
>and even if they weren't they'd have to get a heavy ass crane to get the ship
>out of the lake. The only ship they would have been able to work on would be
>the one Brent crashed. By the time Brent crashed, Taylor was already with the
>mutants. And Brent wouldn't have been able to help with the spaceship because
>there wasn't really any lapse in time in that movie for him to be able to do
>it. The only way the spaceship would have been able to worked on is if the ape
>did on there own and it just goes to my arguement, how did the apes rebuild
>and learn to fly within such a short peroid?

If you notice in the book of the third film, they note that the apes return
in Taylor's ship -- which defeats the theory that it was Brent's ship. as
you will recall, Brent's ship was burnt and smashed --- so i think they'd
have better luck getting Taylor's ship to work. Although you are correct
that the water was very deep . . . i was trying to come up with a way that
'tides' could maybe have drained that lake -- maybe it was water that
flooded in from winter rains somewhere? and when Cornelius went back, the
water was gone. It is also possible that they could rig up some sort of
primitive crane . . . but as they didn't have diving gear -- it wouldn't be
feasible.

I agree that there is NO WAY the apes could have learned to pilot the
spacecraft, which is why i would have to assume that Taylor taught them
how. Another idea i have toyed with is WHAT IF there was some sort of
orbiting module that was PART of Taylor's ship (the way the moon mission
had the module that stayed in orbit). Maybe it was computer controlled, and
did have a part of it?

any thoughts?


- Armando (friend of apes)




_____________ __________

In a message dated 9/24/98 7:04:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<< - Armando (friend of apes)

>>

Nice choice of names!
-Caesar
" Now, fight like Apes!"

__________

>Not really...remember, all those Apes sitting around the fire with Aldo, those
>apes saw him fatally injure Corneilous...now, think about this...those apes go
>home...they might have kids...They're kids are going to think Daddy's a hero.
>so if Daddy thinks Aldo is good, and Daddy's a hero...they'll think the
>same... Just my thoughts...
>-Caesar
>"I am the law"

Though you seem very hooked on this theory of yours, i don't think the rest
of us (well, the two of us who seem to be responding) actually buy it . . .
who else agrees?


Here's one for you! if there were ape revolutions in other cities beside LA
(NYC and New Orleans for example) -- maybe THE LAWGIVER was the leader of
one of those revolutions??? and his visage (at the end of BATTLE) actually
was NOT the Los angeles' ape village at all . . .


- Armando




_____________ __________

><< AY that he could have gotten to california --- because
> that would take AGES by foot, or even a horse . . . and i just don't think
> they would risk it. they weren't even suppose to enter the forbidden zone,
> so there is pretty much NO WAY that he would have gone so far as california
> (he would not have known the place existed --- their maps didn't seem to
> even reach New Jersey!). Also, considering that much of the country was
> probably barren (as a result of the nuclear wars) i would doubt an ape or
> man could travel that far. >>
>Who says the Scrolls stayed in LA...why not hhave the scrolls, or duplicates,
>be brought closer to Ape City?

Well that sounds like it would be the only way to make it work. So, you
have to suppose that at a time not long after the scrolls were written . .
. transportation/communication between the various ape cities existed ?

>Whoever nuked the US wouldn't have nuked the whole entire thing, so they could
>take over some parts of it after the government was knocked. If your gonna
>nuke a country you want to go for just the stargetic points and main
>population centers. So the Mendez guys could have just navigated their way
>between the rad zones. Besides Mendez's gang was already living in radiative
>slag, they were probably adjusted to certain amounts of radiation and just
>mutated.

And would you like to make a suggestion as to WHY they would want to travel
to New York? their fashion sense was more chic?

>As far as Cornelius and those guys going across the US it would take
>forever, but it'd be possible to go across the US because most of radiation
>would have dissipated by then.

Yes -- but WHY would he travel 3000 miles into the forbidden zone and then
back again? the theory doesn't work . . .


- Armando




_____________ __________

In a message dated 9/24/98 8:48:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<<
Though you seem very hooked on this theory of yours, i don't think the rest
of us (well, the two of us who seem to be responding) actually buy it . . .
who else agrees?


Here's one for you! if there were ape revolutions in other cities beside LA
(NYC and New Orleans for example) -- maybe THE LAWGIVER was the leader of
one of those revolutions??? and his visage (at the end of BATTLE) actually
was NOT the Los angeles' ape village at all . . .

>>

Not hooked...bull-headed...and maybethe Lawgiver was, but I doubt it, as
Caesar and he share the same charecteristics.
-Caesar

__________

I guess you could be right on the computer theory, its the only thing that
makes sense right now. The apes probably stumpled on some sort of autopilot
and it took them up in orbit. The lake must be based on tides or something
otherwise the apes would have never have been able to recover a spaceship
weighing some odd tons. Also did you ever see the Ape TV series? How far in
the past was that in relation to POTA? Because it could be possible the
astronauts wrote about space travel and Dr. Milo took some of the writings and
researched it if its not to far in the past.

__________

In a message dated 9/24/98 8:15:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MFLulder@...
writes:

<< Here's one for you! if there were ape revolutions in other cities beside LA
(NYC and New Orleans for example) -- maybe THE LAWGIVER was the leader of
one of those revolutions??? and his visage (at the end of BATTLE) actually
was NOT the Los angeles' ape village at all . . . >>

The Lawgiver COULD NOT have been the leader of any of the ape revolutions
because he was alive SO LONG after Caesar had been long sinse dead. I'm not
doubting the fact that all the Metropolitan cities that had adopted apes as
slaves had rebellions though, just that the Lawgiver from the end of Battle
was a part of any of them.

As far as the mutants in Beneath and what their relationship to the Mendez
Mutants in Battle, why does there have to be just ONE group of human-turned-
mutant survivors? If a big city like Los Angeles could lay claim to a group
of survivors, I don't see why a city like New York, which has a more likely
shelter from a bomb blast (the subway system) couldn't claim their own
survivors as well.

__________

as far as how did communication/travel exist for the question: how could the
apes have contact with the east coast FROM the west coast? I propose this:

You remember in the first Planet, Cornelius and Taylor each make the
observation," the more ancient culture is the more advanced." I propose that
at the very beginning of the apes domination of the planet earth, when humans
were not yet savage beasts and still served a purpose in their knowledge of
technology, human technology was still availiable to them. So in the
beginning (shortly after Battle), the apes probably had access to cars and any
excess fuel in which to drive them with. It's not unfeasible that after the
defeat of Mendez and his army, that the gorillas, hell bent on conquest, went
to the forbidden city (where there were jeeps and busses) and utilized them.
Mendez and his group had probably stock piled fuel so the apes had a limited
ammount of fuel...maybe enough to get them across the country.
Why would the apes leave the west coast? Perhaps some of the apes were so
anti-human that they couldn't stand to live under Caesar's tolreance
policy...so they left. It's very likely that the former ape slaves wouldn't
even want to see their former masters, let alone DEAL with them productively.

Please respond to this theory if you like it, or even if you think that I
really should spend less time staring at my rectum at point blank range.
-Zaius

__________

>In a message dated 9/24/98 9:56:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> . . . would anyone else like to postulate on this theory . . . it needs work
>
> >> Hate to burst your bubble, but it shows Taylor riding from the Forbidden
>Zone to the Mutant "trap" , so 3 months woldn't have past...sorry...
>-Caesar
>"Caesar permits"

YEs -- and it ALSO shows Taylor and Nova acting cute by some bushes, that
were not in the original . . . so some time MUST have passed . . . and who
says how long . . .


- Armando (friend of apes)




_____________ __________

In a message dated 9/24/98 11:40:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<<

Well that sounds like it would be the only way to make it work. So, you
have to suppose that at a time not long after the scrolls were written . .
. transportation/communication between the various ape cities existed ?

>>

Yws, but not much. I think it'd be more like the other apoes saw the
revolution on TV...and after they rebelled, they reconized Caesar as the
leader of the rebellion which inpired them, becsides, most of his laws werr
very just.
-Caesar
"Thats my farther"

__________

In a message dated 9/25/98 1:27:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Scab382@...
writes:

<<
You remember in the first Planet, Cornelius and Taylor each make the
observation," the more ancient culture is the more advanced." I propose that
at the very beginning of the apes domination of the planet earth, when humans
were not yet savage beasts and still served a purpose in their knowledge of
technology, human technology was still availiable to them. So in the
beginning (shortly after Battle), the apes probably had access to cars and
any
excess fuel in which to drive them with. It's not unfeasible that after the
defeat of Mendez and his army, that the gorillas, hell bent on conquest, went
to the forbidden city (where there were jeeps and busses) and utilized them.
Mendez and his group had probably stock piled fuel so the apes had a limited
ammount of fuel...maybe enough to get them across the country.
Why would the apes leave the west coast? Perhaps some of the apes were so
anti-human that they couldn't stand to live under Caesar's tolreance
policy...so they left. It's very likely that the former ape slaves wouldn't
even want to see their former masters, let alone DEAL with them productively.

Please respond to this theory if you like it, or even if you think that I
really should spend less time staring at my rectum at point blank range.
-Zaius

>>

Hey, guys, I changed my mind...I'm going weit Dr. Zauis(or is is justZaius?)
theroy! I like it! Good job
-Caesar

__________

I think they are Mendez' groupp's decendents because one of them is actually
NAMED Mendez. Another is namedd Washington...sort of implying that those two
were named after "great heros"
-Caesar
"You have witnessed the birth of the Planet of the apes"

__________

Mabye were not talking about one lawgiver here. Maybe its a title that was
passed down (the like the shaman of tribe) the orangutang talking could have
just been from a long line of lawgivers. The statue is probably of an older
lawgiver.
Chris

__________

Your theory is good but heres what I think happened. I doubt the gorillas
liked using human technologly (except for the gun) because they don't like
humans for the most part and probably don't trust it. I doubt the gorillas
would be able to find the Mendez stockpile and the other cars would've been
take out by the EMP wave from the nuclear weapos. The ape laws probably just
gradually spread throughout each ape village across the US, like through
stories and the apes that could right wrote it down for their village. Theres
is probably no standard version, and that could be why aldo was in the NYC
version.

Chris

__________

I don't know why the Mendez guys wanted to go to New York, they were probably
just wandering around for years like Moses and the Israelites, and just
decided to settle in New York, because of its premade buildings that were
underground or something.

Chris

__________

Makes good sense to me, that and I read a timeline a while a guy that seemed
to be very accurate, and it mentioned Mendez people moving to the East coast.

Chris

__________

In a message dated 9/25/98 4:36:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BlakerG@...
writes:

<< Mabye were not talking about one lawgiver here. Maybe its a title that was
passed down (the like the shaman of tribe) the orangutang talking could have
just been from a long line of lawgivers. The statue is probably of an older
lawgiver.
Chris

>>

I agree.
-Caesar

__________

having there be more than one lawgiver SOUNDS feasible...but if you remember
the first Planet, they looked up to him as a christlike figure. Granted, the
title "christ" IS just that: a title...but how many other people have you ever
heard of being called christ? No one.
I propose that the same is true for the Lawgiver of the ape society. And I
realize that if the Lawgiver is the professed head of a religion, one might
compare it to the pope. But with popes (and even kings) there were also
specifics given as to their true identity if their is to be any successors to
the title. With the Lawgiver, his being the Lawgiver is all we really know
about him...which would imply that there was only one; with no successors and
no predecessors.
-Zaius
"Let them talk Mr. Chairman, let them talk."

__________

In a message dated 9/26/98 1:30:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Scab382@...
writes:

<< hrist" IS just that: a title...but how many other people have you ever
heard of being called christ? No one.
I propose that the same is true for the Lawgiver of the ape society. And I
realize that if the Lawgiver is the professed head of a religion, one might
compare it to the pope. But with popes (and even kings) there were also >>
Possibly, but I propose that like everything else, the lawgiver changed. I
tthink he was orrigionaly a position, much like the minister of science, buyt
eventually became a hero. I still think Caesar was the origional Lawgiver,
though it is piossible that he made the laws, and someone else gave them.
Virgil perhaps
-Caesar
'He's asleep'
"Not eternally I trust"

__________

> I propose that the same is true for the Lawgiver of the ape
>society. And I
> realize that if the Lawgiver is the professed head of a religion, one might
> compare it to the pope. But with popes (and even kings) there were also >>
>Possibly, but I propose that like everything else, the lawgiver changed. I
>tthink he was orrigionaly a position, much like the minister of science, buyt
>eventually became a hero. I still think Caesar was the origional Lawgiver,
>though it is piossible that he made the laws, and someone else gave them.
>Virgil perhaps
>-Caesar

When it comes down to it, I have to agree with you that Caesar WAS the
first ape who revolted, and the lawgiver SHOULD have been modeled after
him. I think it DOES stand to reason that other apes would have eventually
come up with their own laws and rules . . . and perhaps the lawgiver was
the one to finally collect them all together. In a way: like Christ . . . a
figure into which various future religious folk could embalm all their
sundry ideas.

I also agree with the other suggestion that the ape history was probably
spread and changed over the course of time, as different cities
interepreted it . . . which is probably why the apes in POA had the name
"Aldo" as the first speaker; the real story was that Aldo was the first
betrayer . . . but it got mis-recorded somewhere.


But i also think we have sorta WORN this topic into the ground . . .


- Armando (friend of apes)




_____________ __________

You remember how in the first POA, the forbidden zone seemed to be a vast
inhospidable terrain that took ages to go to / across. The implication was
that Taylor was travelling FAR from ape city . . . before he found the
statue and then the mutants. But in the 2nd film, it seemed that there was
a 'short cut' that Brent entered, that led into the subway system.

Oh duh! the Manhattan subway goes miles and miles into the buroughs . . .
so, does this mean that Ape City is actually located in Long Island?

My point is this: if that entry was so close, why hadn't any of the apes
ever discovered it? don't you think precocious ape children would have
played in the subways?


- Armando, always driving at some new theory . . .




_____________ __________

could the moderator of this list please email the instructions for how
others can sign up to this discussion group . . . so we can clip the info
and share it with our ape aquaintances. things have certainly picked up in
the last week! It would be great to get more people involved . . .

- Armando




_____________ __________

>I think they are Mendez' groupp's decendents because one of them is actually
>NAMED Mendez. Another is namedd Washington...sort of implying that those two
>were named after "great heros"
>-Caesar

that was my ORIGINAL point , , , that the mutants living in NYC were
descendants of the ones in LA. In fact, they had that hall with the busts
of their leaders all the way back to the original Mendez. So, ignoring the
postulations that they were DIFFERENT mutants . . . we are still left with
a search for a good logical reason WHY they migrated to NYC from LA . . .

- Armando (friend to apes)




_____________ __________

>I guess you could be right on the computer theory, its the only thing that
>makes sense right now. The apes probably stumpled on some sort of autopilot
>and it took them up in orbit. The lake must be based on tides or something
>otherwise the apes would have never have been able to recover a spaceship
>weighing some odd tons.

Yes ---i think you are agree with me on this theory . . . that tides laid
the ship bare, and then some sorta autopilot got them into orbit. Someone
said that the water would have corroded the ship and it's computer ---
which is true . . . so do you have any further theory on this one . . .

>Also did you ever see the Ape TV series? How far in
>the past was that in relation to POTA? Because it could be possible the
>astronauts wrote about space travel and Dr. Milo took some of the writings and
>researched it if its not to far in the past.

Can't remember exactly . . . and just as Cornelius had found the doll . . .
and Dr. Zaius seemed to know more than he was letting on about what
artifacts of humanity the O's possessed, perhaps Milo had discovered
something about spaceship travel.


- Armando.






_____________ __________

It could be possible that the apes found some sort of repair manuel and fixed
all that needed to be fixed. I know this is unlikely but this the only thing I
can think of that would make sense. Also does anybody know the name of the
female astronaut from POTA that died early on?
Chris

__________

True the subway was close but not that close for childern to wander around
near. Also the apes seem to follow the laws much more than humans do, so I
think the little apes would probably listen to their parents and the law about
the forbidden zone and not go near it.

Chris

__________

In a message dated 9/26/98 7:10:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<< could the moderator of this list please email the instructions for how
others can sign up to this discussion group . . . so we can clip the info
and share it with our ape aquaintances. things have certainly picked up in
the last week! It would be great to get more people involved . . .

- Armando

>>

Certainly! They need only send an E-mail to pota-subscribe@egroups.com

__________

In a message dated 9/26/98 8:45:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BlakerG@...
writes:

<<
It could be possible that the apes found some sort of repair manuel and fixed
all that needed to be fixed. I know this is unlikely but this the only thing
I
can think of that would make sense. Also does anybody know the name of the
female astronaut from POTA that died early on?
Chris

>>

Her name was Steuart
-Caesar
"Losey Humans!"

__________

heh,

i heard about your group, but i only have juno, can i subscribe?

hrt
bjm

_______ __________

yeah anybody can subscribe as along as you have email.
Chris

__________

Hey, just to start up the list agian...who is everyone's favorite Planet of
the Apes charecter...why?
-Caesar

__________

I'd have to say Dr. Zaius. I take the movies really seriously but Dr. Zaius
always cracks me up.

Mr. Zaius

__________

Armondo(sp?) is pretty cool even if he is a human, but of course Caesar
is the best, how can you not love a revolutionary?

i think what Taylor has evolved into for his five minutes in the second
movie is my least favorite. or maybe the narrator who talks at the end
of the second movie....

hrt
bjm

_______ __________

>Armondo(sp?) is pretty cool even if he is a human, but of course Caesar
>is the best, how can you not love a revolutionary?
>
>i think what Taylor has evolved into for his five minutes in the second
>movie is my least favorite. or maybe the narrator who talks at the end
>of the second movie....
>
>hrt
>bjm

Speaking of the narrator, i was watching the 2nd movie last nite . . . and
his voice sounds surprisingly like Orson Welles. does anyone know who it
actually was? there are no credits for him in the movie . . .

Armando.




_____________ __________

Hey all,

As much as I love to be different on things, I too gotta go with
Ceaser. He's the man (well, acutally ape)! Does anybody know why
Heston was so reluctant to do the second, and made sure that he would
not be in anymore? I've always wondered that.

Ross



Smoothness is all....

>Hey all,
>
> As much as I love to be different on things, I too gotta go with
>Ceaser. He's the man (well, acutally ape)! Does anybody know why
>Heston was so reluctant to do the second, and made sure that he would
>not be in anymore? I've always wondered that.
>
>Ross

Hey Ross -- Heston thought the idea of a sequel was dumb, he felt that
there really was nothing more to be said on the story. that's why he didn't
want any part of it. He agreed to do it, because he wanted to repay the
favor of the prez of Fox, who went with the original, when all the other
studios had laughed and rejected it. Later (in a recent autobiography)
Heston acknowledged that he was probably wrong, and maybe should've stayed
part of the franchise (tho i think his reasoning was more financial then
artistic). Personally, i think the movies would have been worse if his
character had been the focus in all of them.

Love them darn monkeys!

- Armando




_____________ __________

In a message dated 10/2/98 5:14:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
smoothrt@... writes:

<< Hey all,

As much as I love to be different on things, I too gotta go with
Ceaser. He's the man (well, acutally ape)! Does anybody know why
Heston was so reluctant to do the second, and made sure that he would
not be in anymore? I've always wondered that.

Ross



Smoothness is all.... >>
Charlton Heston thought that a sequal would kill the series.
-Caesar

__________

http://www.darkwave.com/apes.html"

Hey all -- check out the page I made . . . hopefully it will help unaware
ape fans join our group. Can someone (the pota moderator) check the sign-up
email-link, and see if it actually works . . . hopefully it will start
showing up on Yahoo and others within a week.


- Armando (helper of apes)




_____________ __________

It looks good. I'll make a link to it on my page and people will probably be
more inclined to join with a good visual aid like that.

Chris

__________

In a message dated 10/3/98 2:27:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
blacktape@... writes:

<< http://www.darkwave.com/apes.html"

Hey all -- check out the page I made . . . hopefully it will help unaware
ape fans join our group. Can someone (the pota moderator) check the sign-up
email-link, and see if it actually works . . . hopefully it will start
showing up on Yahoo and others within a week.


- Armando (helper of apes) >>
Hey! Thanks! I was going to make one...but my AOL is messed up. YOu just saved
me a lotta trouble! I'll check to see if it's working asap. I'll make a web
page for the memeber list soon. Thanks again
-Caesar

__________

I regret to tell you, that Roddy McDowell is no longer amoung the living. I
will miss this truly great actor, and I know his death saddens us all.
-Caesar.

__________

For all who wish to view lots of Planet of the Apes Images, soundwaves and MPEG movies:
Vist www.prophecysite.com/planet.htm

Just got the page up 2 months ago.
Enjoy.
Alex

-----


__________

For all who wish to view lots of Planet of the Apes Images, soundwaves and MPEG movies:
Vist www.prophecysite.com/planet.htm

Just got the page up 2 months ago.
Enjoy.
Alex

-----


__________

Actor Roddy McDowall Dies At Age 70

By Arthur Spiegelman


LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Roddy McDowall, the British-born actor who starred
as a child in "Lassie Come Home" and made a generation of new fans as an
adult in "Planet of the Apes," died Saturday (Oct 3rd) at his home of
cancer, associates said.

The actor, director and producer was 70 years old and news that he had been
terminally ill with cancer shocked Hollywood when it became public two
weeks ago.

He was diagnosed in April but kept it a secret until he told Daily Variety
columnist Army Archerd.

Johnny Grant, who is known as the "honorary mayor of Hollywood" and
chairman of Hollywood's Walk of Fame Committee, said the film industry "had
lost a splendid actor, a true gentleman and one great photographer." He was
referring to McDowall's passion for photographing celebrities, works that
have been exhibited around the world.

Grant added that a wreath was to be placed on McDowall's star on the Walk
of Fame later Saturday.

McDowall, the London-born son of a Scottish merchant seaman who was
evacuated to United States during the Second World War, started his film
career at age 8 and appeared in 22 films before landing in Hollywood, where
he starred with a young Elizabeth Taylor in 1943 in "Lassie Come Home."

He and Taylor maintained a lifelong friendship and he appeared with her as
a mad Roman emperor in "Cleopatra," the film that saw her romance blossom
with co-star Richard Burton.

He also appeared in the 1941 film classic "How Green Was My Valley," in
which he won rave reviews and even predictions that he would became a boy
equivalent of Shirley Temple, something he was spared.

He also starred in a raft of boy-meets-animal films including "My Friend
Flicka." In the Oscar-winning "How Green Was My Valley," he played a young
boy trying to overcome a crippling accident opposite adult star Walter
Pidgeon, who played a minister helping him.

One of Hollywood's most popular figures, McDowall had to fight to
reestablish his career as an actor when he became an adult. He recalled in
interviews that as he grew older Hollywood insisted on still thinking of
him as if he were an 11-year-old.

So in the early 1950s, he emigrated to Broadway, where he appeared in
widely praised productions of "Ah, Wilderness" and "Billy Budd," and became
a mainstay of early television drama, winning an Emmy for acting in "Not
Without Honor" in 1960. He also won a Broadway Tony award for best
supporting actor in a play for the "The Fighting Cock" in 1960.

He appeared in many TV series in the 1960s including the police drama
"Naked City" and "Batman," where he appeared as the villainous "Bookworm.'

He returned to Hollywood as a character actor where his career was reborn
with the "Planet of the Apes" series in which he played the intellectual
simian Cornelius who wanted to befriend mankind. That role won him a host
of yuppie fans who also delighted in his playing a vampire-hunting TV talk
show host in "Fright Night" in 1985.

Besides acting, his consuming passion was photography and he was considered
one of the country's leading photographers of celebrities. He published
four books of pictures starting with "Double Exposure."

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, with whom McDowall worked
for many years, announced Friday that it was naming its photo archive after
him.

The Academy's collection of seven million negatives and still photos will
be called the Roddy McDowall Photograph Archive at the Margaret Herrick
Library.

"The board felt that a tribute to Roddy was appropriate because of his
long-time activity on behalf of the Academy," said AMPAS president Robert
Rehme.

McDowall represented the actors' branch on the Academy's board of governors
since 1992.

His credits as a photographer include the book "Double Exposure," work for
almost two dozen magazines and a job as unit photographer on HBO's "To
Catch a Thief" in 1983.




_____________ __________

I agree that Ceasar was the original.
"Take your stinking paws off me you damn dirty ape!"
-Taylor
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

The DC comics site dedicated the Mad Hatter section to Roddy McDowell.
The Mad Hatter is now left without a voice (as I once was). Those damn apes
will do you in. The least that the cartoon show could do is put on more of
the episodes with the Mad Hatter for a day or so.
-Taylor
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

Hey POTA fans,

Ok, I got this weird question. I want the whole original
soundtrack to "Planet of The Apes", all 18 tracks (I think that's how
many there are). Now of course I could take the easy, expensive way out
and buy the CD somewhere. But, I thought I might be able to get it over
the internet for free. If anyone out there knows where I can get the
whole soundtrack, please give me the website and let me know. I don't
want any clips of the track, or crappy midi version, because I found
those. Preferably, a .wav or .mp3 file would be best. I don't want to
have to order it, pay for it, trade, or anything like that. Just simply
download it and then be able to burn it into a CD with a friends CDR.
So for any of you up to the challenge, thanks for your time and help!

Ross

P.S. GO APE!!!



Smoothness is all....

Many e-mails I have been viewing about Taylor's ship being taken out of
the water or other such topics involve tides. I do not see how this is
possible because in the beginning of the first movie Taylor or one of
the other astronauts remarks on the absence of a moon. Since tides are
a direct affect of the gravity between the Earth and the Moon how is
this possible? To add on to this, how is it possible that the moon was
destroyed in the nuclear war? A possible argument that could be given
to answer both of these questions could be that the moon is there but is
covered up. I have considered this, but if the moon was covered up than
the sun would be to, and if the sun was coevered up than no life would
be able to surive on Earth.

When the astronauts landed the it was day and really bright. The moon was
probably there, they just couldn't seen it because the sun was up.

Chris
__________

I suppose, but then why would they take the time to mention it if no
deeper meaning was intended. Also to go along with the moon concept all
kinds of paranormal weather activity was occuring to suggest a strange
planet.

>From blakerg@... Sun Oct 25 08:46:49 1998
>Received: from BlakerG@...
> by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RHYIa02539;
> Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:46:02 -0500 (EST)
>From: BlakerG@...
>Message-ID: <880241ef.363355ca@...>
>Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:46:02 EST
>To: chico_stud@..., pota@egroups.com
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Subject: Re: [pota] tides
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
>X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84
>
>When the astronauts landed the it was day and really bright. The moon

was

>probably there, they just couldn't seen it because the sun was up.
>
>Chris
>

I just saw BATTLE again and I believe that the movie may have been
re-edited since the early 80's. Specifically, there was a mention of a
nuclear weapon which the mutants were going to fire on ape city should
the mutants be on the verge of losing the war. At the end of the movie,
a wise mutant decided not to fire the weapon (against orders.) His
rational was that the weapon should be remembered as a religious symbol
for the destruction that it caused. As you notice, this ties in very
well to BENEATH. Does anyone else notice this discrepancy, and a reason
why this scene was taken out. Or am I mad???

I'll try and give my insight on this,

Sorry guys, but I think both of you are tackling this topic the
wrong way. At 1 point in "Planet of The Apes," Cornelius talks to
Taylor about traveling along a sea. He explains how you can't go down
the shore at high tide without boats. That there are tides which proves
that there is a moon. Now it's true that Landon observes that he
doesn't see a moon. At the point he says that, it is pretty safe to say
that at least 1 nights has past. After all, Taylor does later tell Zira
that they marched across the forbidden zone for many days and nights.
Now the question is why didn't they see the moon at night. There are
many possible solutions to this. One might be that the astronauts had
the unfortunate, bad luck to have every night cloudy, and every day
clear. Other possible solutions could be that the humans who nuked the
Earth, could have possibly somehow altered the moon in someway before
destroying themselves. I'm sure there are other answers that I'm not
thinking of. Well, that's just my opinion on the matter for all of you
to read and think about.

Ross

P.S. I haven't gotten any suggestions on my soundtrack thing yet.



Smoothness is all....

Attachments :

Here's what I think of this list and ape city
(not really but please download the file)

Taylor

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

Yeah in the original version they didn't say anything about the nuke so it
must have been re-edited or something.

Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

I don't think the humans could have altered the moon so they couldn't see it.
It was probably a new moon on one of the nights and cloudly on the rest of the
nights or its just another one of the plot holes the writers didn't seem to
catch.

Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

I'll have to check on that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

After viewing all five movies I reached some fundamental conclusions
concerning each one. I realized that after the first and second movies
a heavy drop in quality was very apparent. While I watch ridiculous
scenes of Zira trying on clothes, or ape rebellion, or even Caesar
sneaking into a radioactive city to learn the truth behind his past, I
think back on the days of Heston's dramatic portrayal of the human race.
His philosophical quarrels with Doctor Zaius really made one consider
the possibilities of the surrealistic civilization the apes have
created. Not to mention how the endings of the first two compared to
the rest. Though the heartless murders of Zira and Cornelius achieved
the cynical standard imposed by the first and second installments,
Conquer and Battle fell noticeably short. Perhaps some of these problems
can be blamed on the lack of Heston, the setting of Earth, the absence
of new ideas, or the overall cheapness of the last three.

I think the poor quality can be blamed on the the lack of Heston, low budget,
and theres only so many sequels you can squeeze out of a plot and they went a
little over board with five movies.

Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

i think conquest is a good movie & i think it's better than beneathe by a
lot. originally the ending was a lot more brutal but they had to change
it to keep a "G" rating. maybe it's just me & the fact that i think
change through revolution is cool.

hrt
bjm

_______

>After viewing all five movies I reached some fundamental conclusions
>>concerning each one. I realized that after the first and second

movies

>>a heavy drop in quality was very apparent. While I watch ridiculous
>>scenes of Zira trying on clothes, or ape rebellion, or even Caesar
>>sneaking into a radioactive city to learn the truth behind his past, I
>>think back on the days of Heston's dramatic portrayal of the human

race.

>>His philosophical quarrels with Doctor Zaius really made one consider
>>the possibilities of the surrealistic civilization the apes have
>>created. Not to mention how the endings of the first two compared to
>>the rest. Though the heartless murders of Zira and Cornelius achieved
>>the cynical standard imposed by the first and second installments,
>>Conquer and Battle fell noticeably short. Perhaps some of these

problems

>>can be blamed on the lack of Heston, the setting of Earth, the absence
>>of new ideas, or the overall cheapness of the last three.
>

Not to burst any bubbles, but Heston was an overacting buffoon in the first
two movies. I believe that it was the quality of the script that made the
first movie so fine (Rod Serling, say no more!). The 2nd movie, IMHO, is a
really bad film (Heston being in it forced them into a stupid script
confine!). I think that (in actuality) Conquest (the 4th film) is the 2nd
best of the series. What do the rest of you say?


-Armando (honest about them apes!)





_____________

<<<<In fact, they had that hall with the busts of their leaders all the
way back to the
original Mendez>>>>


Do the cameras ever get close enough to actually view the names of all
of the masts? Do you actually know for sure that Mendez was among them.
If not then maybe they did not migrate but are just another group of
mutated humans that ended up wearing the same radiation suits. It would
be foolish to believe that only a handful of humans in one particular
area survived. Just completely forget that last theory if youcan
actually tell me where to see the mast of Mendez.

I had a couple of questions concerning the mutants. First of all I was
wondering why the mutants would worhsip the bomb. I was also wondering
why the mutants were actiing like such assholes to Brent and Taylor if
considering they could talk and other humans that were not mutants could
not. I would also like to mention that I am new to this group and not
had read old messages before publishing my tide question concerning the
moon. I have read some of the old messages and realized that Sam
Rosenthal had already brought that up.

In a message dated 10/31/98 8:56:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
health81@... writes:

<<
Do the cameras ever get close enough to actually view the names of all
of the masts? Do you actually know for sure that Mendez was among them.
If not then maybe they did not migrate but are just another group of
mutated humans that ended up wearing the same radiation suits. It would
be foolish to believe that only a handful of humans in one particular
area survived. Just completely forget that last theory if youcan
actually tell me where to see the mast of Mendez. >>
It lists Mendez in the credits, if that hellps...
-Caesar
__________

Primitive peoples worshiped gods because they thought that they had great
power the bomb has great power, so maybe thats why they worship it.

Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

Hello everyone,

Once while extremely bored and having nothing else to do, I
stumbled across this website. It has some kind of bizarre cross-over
story between "Planet of The Apes" and "Star Trek." Since I was never
into Star Trek, the story didn't have that much of meaning to me. But
it did contain a part which might answer why the mutant humans
worshipped the bomb. It's a long story, but a couple of the "Star Trek"
guys got into the building where the bomb is (Saint Patrick's
Cathedral), and talked to a mutant human, named Mendez, about the bomb.
The mutant human offered this insight: "That is correct, Mister Worf.
This instrument represents all the evils of man, the awesome destructive
capabilities that he once possessed. We offer ourselves to it's
service, so that we might learn from our ancestors' errors, and create a
better life for ourselves." I copy/pasted that quote from the website,
and I believe that the author of it is probably got a good idea there.
Well, that's about all of my addition to the subject. Hope it helped!

Ross

P.S. For any of you who are interested about the story, the website is
this:
http://afterhours.unicom.net/startrek/startrek/crossover/misc/Evol-Q-Tion



Smoothness is all....

><<<<In fact, they had that hall with the busts of their leaders all the
>way back to the
>original Mendez>>>>
>
>
>Do the cameras ever get close enough to actually view the names of all
>of the masts? Do you actually know for sure that Mendez was among them.
>If not then maybe they did not migrate but are just another group of
>mutated humans that ended up wearing the same radiation suits. It would
>be foolish to believe that only a handful of humans in one particular
>area survived. Just completely forget that last theory if youcan
>actually tell me where to see the mast of Mendez.

They are the Medez!!! from the book:

"This last impressively mounted face had a plaque at its base which
proclaimed in etched lettering: MENDEZ XXVI. Mendez the Twenty-sixth! Brent
wagged his head, to clear it of cobwebs."

Me thinks ye know NOT of what thy speak!!!


- Armando (making a point!!!)




_____________

>I had a couple of questions concerning the mutants. First of all I was
>wondering why the mutants would worhsip the bomb.

The nuclear fallout is what made them mutants. They worshipped the bomb, as
a creator --- the same way people worship god . . . blessed be the holy
fallout!!!

>I was also wondering
>why the mutants were actiing like such assholes to Brent and Taylor if
>considering they could talk and other humans that were not mutants could
>not.

Because Brent and Taylor had knowledge of the apes, that could destroy the
mutants. The mutants wanted information on whether or not the Apes were
coming. Why do cops act like assholes? Because you know something they want
to know! And, the fact that Brent and Taylor could speak wouldn't be that
impressive to the mutants, who had developed telepathy . . .

>I would also like to mention that I am new to this group and not
>had read old messages before publishing my tide question concerning the
>moon. I have read some of the old messages and realized that Sam
>Rosenthal had already brought that up.

Welcome to the list!


- Armando (no smart ass comment this time)




_____________

I have found the answers to some of the questions propsed by the
group. First of all it was mentioned earlier that scenes were re-edited
in BATTLE. Whoever mentioned this was not mad, two different versions
with alternative endings were made. The CBS television version adds a
few scenes cut from the theatrical release. One scene takes place after
Aldo chases teacher Abe, where MacDonald reminds him why humans should
not say "no" to an ape. Another scene towards the end of the film has
the surviving House of Mendez cult about to set off the doomsday bomb
(as seen in "Beneath The Planet Of The Apes"), but decide not to as it
would be a threat to the world.
The question of the Mendez Clan moving from Los Angeles to New York
was also brought up. The answer to that is that in the mutant city, the
Mutant factions have gone to war with one another, the followers of the
Gesalt Mind winning out. Mendez and his loyal followers manage to escape
into transnational transport tubes and work their way towards an unknown
new home. They take with them the Alpha-Omega device, which has begun to
carry an almost religious significance with it. Mendez's mutant groups
reach what was once New York City and established themselves there.
Mixture of their bloodline with the local mutants begins to produce
rudimentary telepathic powers.

Well, if what Andrew says is correct and I am not mad than those scenes
were in the director's cut, or something, of BATTLE. That creates the
greater question of why such important scenes to tie the movie into
BENEATH were taken out. I would like to hear some theories. The scenes
that I mentioned just in case you forgot were:

There was a mention of a nuclear weapon which the mutants were
going to fire on ape city should the mutants be on the verge of losing
the war. At the end of
the movie, a wise mutant decided not to fire the weapon (against
orders.) His rational was
that the weapon should be remembered as a religious symbol for the
destruction that it
caused

> The question of the Mendez Clan moving from Los Angeles to New York
>was also brought up. The answer to that is that in the mutant city, the
>Mutant factions have gone to war with one another, the followers of the
>Gesalt Mind winning out. Mendez and his loyal followers manage to escape
>into transnational transport tubes and work their way towards an unknown
>new home. They take with them the Alpha-Omega device, which has begun to
>carry an almost religious significance with it. Mendez's mutant groups
>reach what was once New York City and established themselves there.
>Mixture of their bloodline with the local mutants begins to produce
>rudimentary telepathic powers.

You're making this up, correct?

-armando




_____________

Blacktape you happen to own a webpage?

Chris
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe, unsubscribe, opt for a daily digest, or start a new e-group
at http://www.eGroups.com -- Free Web-based e-mail groups.

The truth is that I got the information about the Mendez clan from a
site about the Planet of the Apes at
http://www.spleenworld.com/apes/main.html It has an intricate timeline
that includes the info I posted. It did not appear that this webmaster
made up the info, but I really do not know. I just do not understand
that other question.