>Later on, when "Skipper" asks Brent, "Did you contact EARTH?", it
>doesn't make any sense to suppose that he means the planet Earth,
>Patrick Michael Tilton

>Patrick,
>
>This post is too long.
>
>I think you might "win" a lot of arguments because people just give
>up trying to communicate and you have the nature of a Politician.
>That's not a compliment but I think it is an accurate observation.
>

> In my chronology the second timeline ends with the cartoon (don't hate
>me!). That gives us a semi conclusion : the world survives past 3955 (the
>destruction of Earth in "Beneath"), thus Caesar is triumphant, and the
>mutants become the Underdwellers. Etc. - - - Jeff

>that even die-hard conservatives who advocated a firm stance against
>Communism did so out of motives that--in their own way--were as pure
>as the so-called liberal "good guys". The foundations of Communist
>philosophy are a recipe for disaster--for endless class warfare (the

>> In case anyone in the audience still couldn't figure out that the

>[*** Actually, the word "conservative" refers more to
>the idea of LESS-government; a "conservative" approach means that
>which involves a MINIMUM of effort/input. Zira states that Zaius
>wants to keep the "status quo"--where he and the other "top
>orangutans" are in control of the government

>--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
>> >Patrick, be fair would you? This doesn't rule out ANYTHING!!!!
>Just like nothing anyone here says makes any difference to your ideas,
>it only gives you more motivation to find more reasons you could be
>right based on things as far fetched as a mothership called Earth.
>Really, after your mothership scenario which is the most far
>fetched idea I have heard of, you cannot discount anything anyone
>says!!
>>
>> I think Pole-Shifted Australia wins out over Mothership Earth for
>the "most far fetched idea" title.
>
>*** "Far fetched" could be used to describe ANY "Pole-Shift" theory.
>Unfortunately, there is a body of evidence that there indeed WAS a
>Pole Shift about 12,500 years ago, although irrefutable PROOF of it,
>of course, does not exist. It's all a matter of interpreting the
>evidence. For those of you who might care to read up on some of the
>more recent books that deal with the "Earth crust displacement"
>theory, I'd suggest Graham Hancock's "FOOTPRINTS OF THE GODS" and Rand
>Flem-Ath's books "WHEN THE SKY FELL" and "THE ATLANTIS BLUEPRINT". The
>fact that temperate zone Wooly Mammoths were flash-frozen with
>undigested buttercups in their mouths... and then SOMEHOW wound up at
>the tundra of the Arctic Circle, should, perhaps, give scoffers of the
>"pole shift" theory some pause.
>
>Patrick

lol ThyPentacle, Pentaclese, Mr. Pentacle... I've been called worse. :o) I have many user names on other forums and IRC chat rooms: eRRoR_404 / DreemWeever / HackerJack and about twenty others that I don't even remember at the moment. ;o) So of course I don't mind cause I don't even know what the hell to call myself.

Thy

  veetus@... wrote:

  I just call him Mr. Pentacle. Etc.       - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 5:55 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: POTA, politics, propaganda, etc

--- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> I have a question.
>
> It is assumed by many that Milo has known Zira and/or Cornelius
for
> years.
>
> Is it possible (within the confines of believability) that they
have
> not known him for years?
>
> I am looking for inferences/evidence from the movie (Escape, as I
do
> not believe Milo is mentioned in any of the others, is he?).
>
> I have always thought they were all close but I really don't know
why.
>
> Looking forward to many varied responses.
>
> Michael

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 1:20 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Mother#$@*er

So in other words you are saying that:

What I'm saying is that no one was trying to fool anyone with unseen motherships that aren't talked about but only alluded to as Earth, or any of that crap!  What you saw is what you got!  They didn't think it past that!  And anyone who says different is only fooling themselves and needs to have their head examined!  Patrick may now invent some theorems to prove me wrong.

> He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship in
> Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a

> and were going to fly it away who would you take with you, friends
> or strangers?
>
> --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > I have a question.
> >
> > It is assumed by many that Milo has known Zira and/or Cornelius
> for
> > years.
> >
> > Is it possible (within the confines of believability) that they
> have
> > not known him for years?
> >
> > I am looking for inferences/evidence from the movie (Escape, as I
> do
> > not believe Milo is mentioned in any of the others, is he?).
> >
> > I have always thought they were all close but I really don't know
> why.
> >
> > Looking forward to many varied responses.
> >
> > Michael
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

> Free $5 Love Reading
> Risk Free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo


> I agree they are friends and I think that is undenyable, but it does
> not mean there has been a LONG relationship necessarily, does it?
>
> Zira and Cornelius befriend Taylor very quickly (and Stevie & Lewis,
> and Armando).
>
> I am just wondering if it is totally necessary that they have been
> friends for a long time (again I FEEL they have, but I don't think
> that feeling is justified by evidence).
>
> Michael
>
> --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
> > He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship in
> > Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a
> spaceship
> > and were going to fly it away who would you take with you, friends
> > or strangers?
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > I have a question.
> > >
> > > It is assumed by many that Milo has known Zira and/or Cornelius
> > for
> > > years.
> > >
> > > Is it possible (within the confines of believability) that they
> > have
> > > not known him for years?
> > >
> > > I am looking for inferences/evidence from the movie (Escape, as I
> > do
> > > not believe Milo is mentioned in any of the others, is he?).
> > >
> > > I have always thought they were all close but I really don't know
> > why.
> > >
> > > Looking forward to many varied responses.
> > >
> > > Michael
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ ---------------------
> ~-->
> > Free $5 Love Reading
> > Risk Free!
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -~->
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo


> I agree they are friends and I think that is undenyable, but it does
> not mean there has been a LONG relationship necessarily, does it?
>
> Zira and Cornelius befriend Taylor very quickly (and Stevie & Lewis,
> and Armando).
>
> I am just wondering if it is totally necessary that they have been
> friends for a long time (again I FEEL they have, but I don't think
> that feeling is justified by evidence).
>
> Michael
>
> --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
> > He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship in
> > Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a
> spaceship
> > and were going to fly it away who would you take with you, friends
> > or strangers?
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > I have a question.
> > >
> > > It is assumed by many that Milo has known Zira and/or Cornelius
> > for
> > > years.
> > >
> > > Is it possible (within the confines of believability) that they
> > have
> > > not known him for years?
> > >
> > > I am looking for inferences/evidence from the movie (Escape, as I
> > do
> > > not believe Milo is mentioned in any of the others, is he?).
> > >
> > > I have always thought they were all close but I really don't know
> > why.
> > >
> > > Looking forward to many varied responses.
> > >
> > > Michael
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ ---------------------
> ~-->
> > Free $5 Love Reading
> > Risk Free!
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -~->
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> > Their goodbye with Louis and Stevey is touching but not as
> > intense as when they speak about Milo
>
> Hey, they named their son after him!
> That about says it all.
>

<  He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship in
Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a spaceship
and were going to fly it away who would you take with you, friends
or strangers?>

If I were going to get into that previously water-logged alien spaceship, I'd take whoever I thought knew the most about flying the thing.  Even if I hated them.

I had the impression that they seemed to be friends, but maybe not GREAT friends.  Like collegues who found they get along really well together.  Why?  No real reason.  Maybe their reaction at his death?

>I had the impression that they seemed to be friends, but maybe not GREAT
>friends. Like collegues who found they get along really well together.

On Friday, June 28, 2002, at 09:31 AM, Melkor wrote:

>> I had the impression that they seemed to be friends, but maybe not
>> GREAT
>> friends. Like collegues who found they get along really well together.
>
> That sounds about right to me. On the other hand they did name their
> son
> after Milo. (Why did Armando rename him Caesar?) Any interpretation
> would
> work here.
>
> Another question is when does Milo tell Cornelius and Zira about the
> Icarus?
> The way I pictured it is that Milo comes to visit them about 30 minutes
> after Zira's last appearance in BENEATH. There is some urgency to
> leave ape
> city for awhile because they don't know what the result of the war will
> be.
>
> -Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo


> Yeah I know, they named their son after him. This intensity of
> feelings towards him could also be explained by the fact that they
> are the only 3 of their kind to be around. I do agree they have
> intense feelings for him, but it is still arguable that this is from
> the amount of time they have had together. It is possible that
> someone who thinks as they do (and this is obvious) and who obviously
> shares their dangerous knowledge would have become a close friend
> very quickly, not necessarily over time.
>
> I just want to be clear here that it is not totally unacceptable and
> ridiculous to avoid concluding that they have known each other for a
> long time.
>
> Hey, I haven't known you long and I called both my twins T (well,
> they are identical, so I gave them identical names).
>
> By the way, guess who will be starring as the Skywalker twins in SW3?
>
> Michael
>
> --- LordTZer0@... wrote:
> >
> > > Their goodbye with Louis and Stevey is touching but not as
> > > intense as when they speak about Milo
> >
> > Hey, they named their son after him!
> > That about says it all.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 7:31 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo


> >I had the impression that they seemed to be friends, but maybe not GREAT
> >friends. Like collegues who found they get along really well together.
>
> That sounds about right to me. On the other hand they did name their son
> after Milo. (Why did Armando rename him Caesar?) Any interpretation would
> work here.
>
> Another question is when does Milo tell Cornelius and Zira about the
Icarus?
> The way I pictured it is that Milo comes to visit them about 30 minutes
> after Zira's last appearance in BENEATH. There is some urgency to leave
ape
> city for awhile because they don't know what the result of the war will
be.
>
> -Tom
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 7:31 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo


> >I had the impression that they seemed to be friends, but maybe not GREAT
> >friends. Like collegues who found they get along really well together.
>
> That sounds about right to me. On the other hand they did name their son
> after Milo. (Why did Armando rename him Caesar?) Any interpretation would
> work here.
>
> Another question is when does Milo tell Cornelius and Zira about the
Icarus?
> The way I pictured it is that Milo comes to visit them about 30 minutes
> after Zira's last appearance in BENEATH. There is some urgency to leave
ape
> city for awhile because they don't know what the result of the war will
be.
>
> -Tom
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo


> I want to know why Drs. Galen and Milo were named for ancient Greeks
> when all of the other non-mutant inhabitants of the 40th century had
> Romanesque names in the movies. I say Romanesque only because of Zira;
> did Boulle invent her name, or did it exist previously?
>
> Anthony B. McElveen
>
> On Friday, June 28, 2002, at 09:31 AM, Melkor wrote:
>
> >> I had the impression that they seemed to be friends, but maybe not
> >> GREAT
> >> friends. Like collegues who found they get along really well together.
> >
> > That sounds about right to me. On the other hand they did name their
> > son
> > after Milo. (Why did Armando rename him Caesar?) Any interpretation
> > would
> > work here.
> >
> > Another question is when does Milo tell Cornelius and Zira about the
> > Icarus?
> > The way I pictured it is that Milo comes to visit them about 30 minutes
> > after Zira's last appearance in BENEATH. There is some urgency to
> > leave ape
> > city for awhile because they don't know what the result of the war will
> > be.
> >
> > -Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> I think this is the best place to start and it is the first question

> should ask new members to the chat group:
>
> WHAT IS PLANET OF THE APES?????

> I would let that beef go. Even the first timeline can never be

> timeline because Taylor launches his ship in 1972. The TV series

> ruled out because they launch in 1980, but the cartoon universe is

> open if you want to go with that.

> Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv

> > Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv

>
> So that people would not try to fit the TV series into the movie

> Agreed the one in Battle lived 100 years before the one mentioned in
> Planet.

> It takes millions of years for continents to move even half way

> the globe. Your Pole-Shifted Australia jumps all the way in a

> two because of a nuclear war.
>
> Lets take a look at your greatest hits so far. And who knows how

> of your great ideas we missed.

> ...It makes much more sense that the Mutants
> make their masks in order to satisfy their need to perceive

> as different from each other; without their masks, they all look
> hideously alike--you can't even tell any racial differences. But

> the masks on, not only can you tell that "Negro" is a black man, but
> that the robe-clad Albina is a female (with a wig of blonde hair, to
> make her more feminine).

> say Romanesque only because of Zira; did Boulle invent her name, or did it
>> exist previously?
>
>Zira is not an invented name. Though it is more common on the other side of
>the world, particularly in the Moslem/Hebrew region. There a some alternate
>spellings as well, such as, Zirah or Zerah. No matter what language these
>variations appear whether Japanese, Chinese or Swedish, it always means
>Princess, or Flower, or Dawn, with the exception of Basque where its a
>variation of Madonna. It's also some word in Turkish I have yet to figure
>out. Zira.com is, or was a computer systems company. There used to be a
>German brand of cigarettes called Zira. And people still collect silks from
>them with the Zira Girls on them. You can find them on eBay. A search of
>old census records nearly always turns up a Zira or two. And there is a
>small town in the region of India that is now Pakistan near Lahore named,
>Zira. Zira has gained recent popularity as a name in the punk rock
>community, and also as a pet name. And it was most recently used in the
>Disney film The Lion King. I hope that answers your question.

<  He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship in
Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a spaceship
and were going to fly it away who would you take with you, friends
or strangers?>

If I were going to get into that previously water-logged alien spaceship, I'd take whoever I thought knew the most about flying the thing.  Even if I hated them.

I had the impression that they seemed to be friends, but maybe not GREAT friends.  Like collegues who found they get along really well together.  Why?  No real reason.  Maybe their reaction at his death?

Kassidy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 0:32
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
>
>
> >I had the impression that they seemed to be friends, but maybe not GREAT
> >friends. Like collegues who found they get along really well together.
>
> That sounds about right to me. On the other hand they did name their son
> after Milo. (Why did Armando rename him Caesar?) Any interpretation would
> work here.
>
> Another question is when does Milo tell Cornelius and Zira about
> the Icarus?
> The way I pictured it is that Milo comes to visit them about 30 minutes
> after Zira's last appearance in BENEATH. There is some urgency
> to leave ape
> city for awhile because they don't know what the result of the
> war will be.
>
> -Tom
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 2:22
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
>
>
> That's true, there's a lot of viariables. I'm closer to people
> I've met in
> the '90's then to some I've known all my life. On the other hand there's
> something about people dying you've known all your life that
> really gets to
> me.
> Congrats on your twins' gig. Make sure Lucas gives you script approval.
> Etc. - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <whitty@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 11:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
>
>
> > Yeah I know, they named their son after him. This intensity of
> > feelings towards him could also be explained by the fact that they
> > are the only 3 of their kind to be around. I do agree they have
> > intense feelings for him, but it is still arguable that this is from
> > the amount of time they have had together. It is possible that
> > someone who thinks as they do (and this is obvious) and who obviously
> > shares their dangerous knowledge would have become a close friend
> > very quickly, not necessarily over time.
> >
> > I just want to be clear here that it is not totally unacceptable and
> > ridiculous to avoid concluding that they have known each other for a
> > long time.
> >
> > Hey, I haven't known you long and I called both my twins T (well,
> > they are identical, so I gave them identical names).
> >
> > By the way, guess who will be starring as the Skywalker twins in SW3?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- LordTZer0@... wrote:
> > >
> > > > Their goodbye with Louis and Stevey is touching but not as
> > > > intense as when they speak about Milo
> > >
> > > Hey, they named their son after him!
> > > That about says it all.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 2:40
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
>
>
> Milo & Cornelius were college roommates. But after Milo used
> Cornelius' bong for an experiment that blew up the room; Dean Zaius
> evicted them both. There were rooms available at the Chimpette dorm;
> so they dressed up as females, calling themselves Lola & Mimi, to
> enrolled there. The plan worked perfectly until Cornelius met and
> fell in love with Zira.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 6:29
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Zira

I say Romanesque only because of Zira; did Boulle invent her name, or did it exist previously?

Zira is not an invented name.  Though it is more common on the other side of the world, particularly in the Moslem/Hebrew region.  There a some alternate spellings as well, such as, Zirah or Zerah.  No matter what language these variations appear whether Japanese, Chinese or Swedish, it always means Princess, or Flower, or Dawn, with the exception of Basque where its a variation of Madonna.  It's also some word in Turkish I have yet to figure out.  Zira.com is, or was a computer systems company.  There used to be a German brand of cigarettes called Zira.  And people still collect silks from them with the Zira Girls on them.  You can find them on eBay.  A search of old census records nearly always turns up a Zira or two.  And there is a small town in the region of India that is now Pakistan near Lahore named, Zira.  Zira has gained recent popularity as a name in the punk rock community, and also as a pet name.  And it was most recently used in the Di
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> No, I get the feeling they've known each other because of the
intensity of
> their feelings. Their goodbye with Louis and Stevey is touching but
not as
> intense as when they speak about Milo (true, he was killed horribly
but
> still, they talk about him like an old friend).
> - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <whitty@c...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
>
>
> > I agree they are friends and I think that is undenyable, but it
does
> > not mean there has been a LONG relationship necessarily, does it?
> >
> > Zira and Cornelius befriend Taylor very quickly (and Stevie &
Lewis,
> > and Armando).
> >
> > I am just wondering if it is totally necessary that they have been
> > friends for a long time (again I FEEL they have, but I don't think
> > that feeling is justified by evidence).
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > > He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship
in
> > > Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a
> > spaceship
> > > and were going to fly it away who would you take with you,
friends
> > > or strangers?
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > > I have a question.
> > > >
> > > > It is assumed by many that Milo has known Zira and/or
Cornelius
> > > for
> > > > years.
> > > >
> > > > Is it possible (within the confines of believability) that
they
> > > have
> > > > not known him for years?
> > > >
> > > > I am looking for inferences/evidence from the movie (Escape,
as I
> > > do
> > > > not believe Milo is mentioned in any of the others, is he?).
> > > >
> > > > I have always thought they were all close but I really don't
know
> > > why.
> > > >
> > > > Looking forward to many varied responses.
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------ -----------------
----
> > ~-->
> > > Free $5 Love Reading
> > > Risk Free!
> > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
> > -~->
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., "Alan Maxwell" <alan@a...> wrote:
> Is it not possible that they are the same one and that history is
> simply a bit blurry? Given that hundreds of years have passed and
the
> apes' recorded history isn't exactly stored in the most exact
manner,
> I'd think it's very possible that this is simply a slight
historical
> inaccuracy.
>
> Alan

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> This is good but we need something dirty to happen - it sounds
like a
> college flick so let's see some breasts OK? And some practical
jokes.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 2:40
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> >
> >
> > Milo & Cornelius were college roommates. But after Milo used
> > Cornelius' bong for an experiment that blew up the room; Dean
Zaius
> > evicted them both. There were rooms available at the Chimpette
dorm;
> > so they dressed up as females, calling themselves Lola & Mimi, to
> > enrolled there. The plan worked perfectly until Cornelius met and
> > fell in love with Zira.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 9:40 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo


> Milo & Cornelius were college roommates. But after Milo used
> Cornelius' bong for an experiment that blew up the room; Dean Zaius
> evicted them both. There were rooms available at the Chimpette dorm;
> so they dressed up as females, calling themselves Lola & Mimi, to
> enrolled there. The plan worked perfectly until Cornelius met and
> fell in love with Zira.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] What is Planet of the Apes????


> "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:
> > I think this is the best place to start and it is the first question
> we
> > should ask new members to the chat group:
> >
> > WHAT IS PLANET OF THE APES?????
>
> I am always able to view Planet of the Apes as a standalone 1968 film,
> and it's my favourite, that's for sure. But by and large when I think
> of Planet of the Apes I think of the franchise - and I don't just
> think it's because of the collectibles and things either. I think it
> is probably influenced by how I saw the films. Battle was the first
> PotA film I saw, followed by Conquest (a couple of times) and I loved
> them both. The original was actually the third film that I saw in the
> series.
>
> I suspect that has a lot to do with it - who knows, maybe if I'd
> actually seen the original first, I'd be right up there with Rory
> defending the original and mauling the sequels and TV series!
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 1:28 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Zira

I say Romanesque only because of Zira; did Boulle invent her name, or did it exist previously?

Zira is not an invented name.  Though it is more common on the other side of the world, particularly in the Moslem/Hebrew region.  There a some alternate spellings as well, such as, Zirah or Zerah.  No matter what language these variations appear whether Japanese, Chinese or Swedish, it always means Princess, or Flower, or Dawn, with the exception of Basque where its a variation of Madonna.  It's also some word in Turkish I have yet to figure out.  Zira.com is, or was a computer systems company.  There used to be a German brand of cigarettes called Zira.  And people still collect silks from them with the Zira Girls on them.  You can find them on eBay.  A search of old census records nearly always turns up a Zira or two.  And there is a small town in the region of India that is now Pakistan near Lahore named, Zira.  Zira has gained recent popularity as a name in the punk rock community, and also as a pet name.  And it was most recently used in the Disney film The Lion King.  I hope that answers your question.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Come to think of it, they don't seem to show the films piecemeal
anymore.
> Sometimes they just show the original, or maybe the original
and "Beneath",
> but rarely is it, "Oh, they're showing "Conquest" tonight".
Usually it's
> marathons or theme weeks. Etc. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 12:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] What is Planet of the Apes????
>
>
> > "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > I think this is the best place to start and it is the first
question
> > we
> > > should ask new members to the chat group:
> > >
> > > WHAT IS PLANET OF THE APES?????
> >
> > I am always able to view Planet of the Apes as a standalone 1968
film,
> > and it's my favourite, that's for sure. But by and large when I
think
> > of Planet of the Apes I think of the franchise - and I don't just
> > think it's because of the collectibles and things either. I
think it
> > is probably influenced by how I saw the films. Battle was the
first
> > PotA film I saw, followed by Conquest (a couple of times) and I
loved
> > them both. The original was actually the third film that I saw
in the
> > series.
> >
> > I suspect that has a lot to do with it - who knows, maybe if I'd
> > actually seen the original first, I'd be right up there with Rory
> > defending the original and mauling the sequels and TV series!
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] The Truth About Cats & Dogs


> "Jeff & Susan Stringer" <stringe@...> wrote:
> > Then why is there a dog in the first episode of the Apes tv
> series...?
>
> Possible explanations:
>
> 1) They were genetically engineered or even cloned a la Jurassic Park
> not long after the plague, and began to breed again.
>
> 2) There may have been some surviving dogs left somewhere (in a remote
> part of the countryside, a sheltered valley, whatever) and once the
> plague died out (like the great Spanish Flu epidemic) they were able
> to restart the species again.
>
> 3) The writers decided that the TV series is not meant to take place
> in film continuity.
>
> 4) It was a sloppy mistake.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 8:35 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo

In a message dated 6/28/2002 11:38:10 AM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

There doesn't seem to
be a distinction, the writers use names from both the ancient Greek and
Roman. Etc.  

True... And I know you're not the one who brought this subject up, so I'm not meaning this too sound as if I'm saying you left anything out, but don't forget, they also used a Latin word / name URSUS. At least I believe it's Latin in origin, if not, well, I stand corrected.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo


> I was kidding about the twins Jeff, but I guess they will be needing a
pair
> og young babies (although I bet they are after slightly younger or older).
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 2:22
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> >
> >
> > That's true, there's a lot of viariables. I'm closer to people
> > I've met in
> > the '90's then to some I've known all my life. On the other hand there's
> > something about people dying you've known all your life that
> > really gets to
> > me.
> > Congrats on your twins' gig. Make sure Lucas gives you script
approval.
> > Etc. - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <whitty@...>
> > To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 11:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> >
> >
> > > Yeah I know, they named their son after him. This intensity of
> > > feelings towards him could also be explained by the fact that they
> > > are the only 3 of their kind to be around. I do agree they have
> > > intense feelings for him, but it is still arguable that this is from
> > > the amount of time they have had together. It is possible that
> > > someone who thinks as they do (and this is obvious) and who obviously
> > > shares their dangerous knowledge would have become a close friend
> > > very quickly, not necessarily over time.
> > >
> > > I just want to be clear here that it is not totally unacceptable and
> > > ridiculous to avoid concluding that they have known each other for a
> > > long time.
> > >
> > > Hey, I haven't known you long and I called both my twins T (well,
> > > they are identical, so I gave them identical names).
> > >
> > > By the way, guess who will be starring as the Skywalker twins in SW3?
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > --- LordTZer0@... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Their goodbye with Louis and Stevey is touching but not as
> > > > > intense as when they speak about Milo
> > > >
> > > > Hey, they named their son after him!
> > > > That about says it all.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 9:47
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
>
>
> Well Zaius' lesbian daughter is Zira's roommate and falls for Mimi
> (Milo).
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > This is good but we need something dirty to happen - it sounds
> like a
> > college flick so let's see some breasts OK? And some practical
> jokes.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 2:40
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> > >
> > >
> > > Milo & Cornelius were college roommates. But after Milo used
> > > Cornelius' bong for an experiment that blew up the room; Dean
> Zaius
> > > evicted them both. There were rooms available at the Chimpette
> dorm;
> > > so they dressed up as females, calling themselves Lola & Mimi, to
> > > enrolled there. The plan worked perfectly until Cornelius met and
> > > fell in love with Zira.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Friday, June 28, 2002, at 10:35 PM, mlccougar@... wrote:

> True... And I know you're not the one who brought this subject up, so
> I'm not meaning this too sound as if I'm saying you left anything out,
> but don't forget, they also used a Latin word / name URSUS. At least I
> believe it's Latin in origin, if not, well, I stand corrected.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sand_hill_school [sand_hill_school@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 9:01
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
>
>
>
> It seems to me that if Cornelius and Zira had known Dr. Milo well,
> they would not always refer to him as "Dr. Milo." Even privately,
> they refer to him as "Dr. Milo." As if maybe he has some sort of
> authority? Maybe a teacher?
>
> --Helen
>
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > No, I get the feeling they've known each other because of the
> intensity of
> > their feelings. Their goodbye with Louis and Stevey is touching but
> not as
> > intense as when they speak about Milo (true, he was killed horribly
> but
> > still, they talk about him like an old friend).
> > - - Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <whitty@c...>
> > To: <pota@y...>
> > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> >
> >
> > > I agree they are friends and I think that is undenyable, but it
> does
> > > not mean there has been a LONG relationship necessarily, does it?
> > >
> > > Zira and Cornelius befriend Taylor very quickly (and Stevie &
> Lewis,
> > > and Armando).
> > >
> > > I am just wondering if it is totally necessary that they have been
> > > friends for a long time (again I FEEL they have, but I don't think
> > > that feeling is justified by evidence).
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > > > He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship
> in
> > > > Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a
> > > spaceship
> > > > and were going to fly it away who would you take with you,
> friends
> > > > or strangers?
> > > >
> > > > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > > > I have a question.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is assumed by many that Milo has known Zira and/or
> Cornelius
> > > > for
> > > > > years.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it possible (within the confines of believability) that
> they
> > > > have
> > > > > not known him for years?
> > > > >
> > > > > I am looking for inferences/evidence from the movie (Escape,
> as I
> > > > do
> > > > > not believe Milo is mentioned in any of the others, is he?).
> > > > >
> > > > > I have always thought they were all close but I really don't
> know
> > > > why.
> > > > >
> > > > > Looking forward to many varied responses.
> > > > >
> > > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------ -----------------
> ----
> > > ~-->
> > > > Free $5 Love Reading
> > > > Risk Free!
> > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > -~->
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 8:23 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Milo (conclusion)


> Very good point Helen.
>
> I don't think anything anyone has said here is hard evidence that Zira and
> Cornelius knew Milo for a long time, so I would conclude that it is not
> unreasonable to go either way so long as it is assumed that they are very
> close.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sand_hill_school [sand_hill_school@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 9:01
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> >
> >
> >
> > It seems to me that if Cornelius and Zira had known Dr. Milo well,
> > they would not always refer to him as "Dr. Milo." Even privately,
> > they refer to him as "Dr. Milo." As if maybe he has some sort of
> > authority? Maybe a teacher?
> >
> > --Helen
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > No, I get the feeling they've known each other because of the
> > intensity of
> > > their feelings. Their goodbye with Louis and Stevey is touching but
> > not as
> > > intense as when they speak about Milo (true, he was killed horribly
> > but
> > > still, they talk about him like an old friend).
> > > - - Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <whitty@c...>
> > > To: <pota@y...>
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:44 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> > >
> > >
> > > > I agree they are friends and I think that is undenyable, but it
> > does
> > > > not mean there has been a LONG relationship necessarily, does it?
> > > >
> > > > Zira and Cornelius befriend Taylor very quickly (and Stevie &
> > Lewis,
> > > > and Armando).
> > > >
> > > > I am just wondering if it is totally necessary that they have been
> > > > friends for a long time (again I FEEL they have, but I don't think
> > > > that feeling is justified by evidence).
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > > > > He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship
> > in
> > > > > Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a
> > > > spaceship
> > > > > and were going to fly it away who would you take with you,
> > friends
> > > > > or strangers?
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > > > > I have a question.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is assumed by many that Milo has known Zira and/or
> > Cornelius
> > > > > for
> > > > > > years.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is it possible (within the confines of believability) that
> > they
> > > > > have
> > > > > > not known him for years?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am looking for inferences/evidence from the movie (Escape,
> > as I
> > > > > do
> > > > > > not believe Milo is mentioned in any of the others, is he?).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have always thought they were all close but I really don't
> > know
> > > > > why.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Looking forward to many varied responses.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michael
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------ -----------------
> > ----
> > > > ~-->
> > > > > Free $5 Love Reading
> > > > > Risk Free!
> > > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> > > > -~->
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken and Heather Taylor [ktaylor@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 30 June 2002 8:34
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Milo (conclusion)
>
>
> Chances are that Roddy McDowall and Sal Mineo would have known each other
> pretty well.
> Not that there's anything wrong with that.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 8:23 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Milo (conclusion)
>
>
> > Very good point Helen.
> >
> > I don't think anything anyone has said here is hard evidence
> that Zira and
> > Cornelius knew Milo for a long time, so I would conclude that it is not
> > unreasonable to go either way so long as it is assumed that
> they are very
> > close.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: sand_hill_school [sand_hill_school@...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, 29 June 2002 9:01
> > > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It seems to me that if Cornelius and Zira had known Dr. Milo well,
> > > they would not always refer to him as "Dr. Milo." Even privately,
> > > they refer to him as "Dr. Milo." As if maybe he has some sort of
> > > authority? Maybe a teacher?
> > >
> > > --Helen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > No, I get the feeling they've known each other because of the
> > > intensity of
> > > > their feelings. Their goodbye with Louis and Stevey is touching but
> > > not as
> > > > intense as when they speak about Milo (true, he was killed horribly
> > > but
> > > > still, they talk about him like an old friend).
> > > > - - Jeff
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <whitty@c...>
> > > > To: <pota@y...>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:44 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Milo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I agree they are friends and I think that is undenyable, but it
> > > does
> > > > > not mean there has been a LONG relationship necessarily, does it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Zira and Cornelius befriend Taylor very quickly (and Stevie &
> > > Lewis,
> > > > > and Armando).
> > > > >
> > > > > I am just wondering if it is totally necessary that they have been
> > > > > friends for a long time (again I FEEL they have, but I don't think
> > > > > that feeling is justified by evidence).
> > > > >
> > > > > Michael
> > > > >
> > > > > --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > > > > > He's never mentioned in Planet or Beneath but the relationship
> > > in
> > > > > > Escape seems to be that of friends. Besides if you found a
> > > > > spaceship
> > > > > > and were going to fly it away who would you take with you,
> > > friends
> > > > > > or strangers?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > > > > > I have a question.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is assumed by many that Milo has known Zira and/or
> > > Cornelius
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > years.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is it possible (within the confines of believability) that
> > > they
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > > not known him for years?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am looking for inferences/evidence from the movie (Escape,
> > > as I
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > not believe Milo is mentioned in any of the others, is he?).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have always thought they were all close but I really don't
> > > know
> > > > > > why.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Looking forward to many varied responses.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Michael
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------ -----------------
> > > ----
> > > > > ~-->
> > > > > > Free $5 Love Reading
> > > > > > Risk Free!
> > > > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----
> > > > > -~->
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> But this is after he gets off the ship Patrick.
>
> You can't accept that Taylor could be in shock, or at least a little
> disorientated, at that point where he wakes up on a sinking ship?

> This isn't a game where there has to be a winner or a loser.
>
> You come up with the most unbelievable ways to explain these "flubs", but you almost certainly dismiss anything anybody else says. Is this because you need to show how thoroughly you have thought things through or do you just have to take a contrary stance?

>
> Again your reasoning is unsound Patrick. Just because Taylor plays it cool for a lot of the movie, it does not mean he is not human.

>
> I am getting a little frustrated with your posts Patrick but I am trying not to be insulting. I do however need to make these points in hope that you will think about what I am saying. Please don't be offended, but please try to "listen".
>
> Michael
>

> >Who is to say that it is not possible that a month after the final Battle scene the Lawgiver's attitudes and subsequent writings changed?
> >
> >Maybe there is a series of Lawgivers.
>
> Both of these go against the writers intentions. They called their character "Lawgiver" in BATTLE because the original movie had established that the "greatest ape of all" was called that. They made the Lawgiver look very old in BATTLE to establish that he didn't change his views back to what they are in PLANET later in life.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> I don't know how you draw the conclusion that anything you say here clinches anything.
>
> What you say here is evidence that Taylor believes they are "in the future".
>
> The reference to whether anyone is listening certainly IMPLIES a "live" broadcast, but could also mean that Taylor thinks mankind has destroyed itself and there is nobody left to listen.
>
> Give me some evidence that his recording could not be a "Captain's Log" - ie a ship's log that would stay with the ship.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> > Sent: Thursday, 27 June 2002 2:26
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: The Hatch of the ship
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > I always thought Taylor's report was simply a recording that stayed on the ship, just as civil servants make and file reports all the time and as trekkies do in their "Captain's Log". Is there any evidence that these reports were being sent anywhere?
>
> Michael
> >
> > *** Taylor, speaking to whomever will eventually hear his "final
> > report" says, "You who are reading me now are a different breed--I
> > hope a better one. I leave the Twentieth Century with no regrets. But, one more thing... if anybody's listening that is..."
> >
> > Later on, Taylor tells Landon, "Even if you COULD get back [i.e. to the planet Earth], they'd think you were something that fell out of a tree."
> >
> > I don't think it's likely that Taylor would address anybody on his own crew (after another 12 months of Ship-Time hibernating) as "a different breed" whom he hopes will be "a better one" than the breed of humanity he left behind in the 20th Century. He, knowing that "almost 700 years" have gone by on Earth, can only be sending out a report to whomever is still there on planet Earth, centuries ahead of the time he left it, in 1972.
> >
> > I think that clinches it.
> >
> > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > EARTH-TIME 6-26-2002

> Of course you're assuming that Cornelius would be very precise every
> time he spoke. Maybe Dead Lake was just a name he gave the inland
> sea and maybe he used a simple term in front of the commission as to
> not waste time on a long explaination.

> Patrick, do you really think that Cornelius thought there were other
> english speaking apes at the time? I thought all 3 apes realised
> that the apes of the time were the equivalent of humans in the
> future - not speaking and not evolved in their intellect. This may
> just be something I have assumed though.
>
> Michael

> I agree James.
>
> And Patrick, now I understand why you feel it is necessary to be so
> thorough.
>
> I agree that there is a lot of sloppy sci-fi out there and it is
> annoying, but I would not take it quite as far as you do because that
> is being extreme on the other end of the scale (but that is your
> choice and power to you). I honestly thought you might be trying to
> isolate your audience with an equation or to. I am a public (civil)
> servant and I see false authority daily and it bugs me more than
> sloppy sci-fi! Sorry if I read you wrong.
>
> Also, doesn't it bother you how, by absolute coincidence, there is a
> mathematical formula to prove something that was never intended to be
> proven? It frightens me!
>
> Michael

> Yes mathematics can be your friend, but you are dry raping it here
> Patrick, not being friendly.
>
> You are applying logic to prove a coincidence and that is not
> logical. What you are doing is trying to logically prove how a
> coincidence ocurred. This is either unnecessary (eg a car crashes
> into another and you explain how this happens by reverting to the
> speed the cars were travelling at and the distance they covered) or
> contrived (eg you try to prove someone is a witch by weighing them
> against a duck - I'm sure you know what I'm talking about from Monty
> Python and the Holy Grail).
>
> A lot of your arguments remind me of that "Witch Hunt" scene in Holy
> Grail, mathematical or otherwise (ie they wanted to prove she was a
> witch so they could burn her, so they did just that).
>
> Michael

> I don't have a scenario Patrick.
>
> I explore a variety of scenarios and all of them have flaws, as do
> yours (eg the Mothership Earth scenario - I would not be the first to say that this is the LAST scenario would offer, would I?).
>
> You however seem to think that the scenario you offer is the only
> one, and that bothers me (so I hope I am wrong).
>
> I wonder if you think we are "battling" over whose scenario is best. I hope not, because they are all crap! I do wish however that instead of using your energy to disprove others' theories you would instead look at ways they might work and stop being so competitive (and a bit co-operative) about it. The fact that you so consistently stick to dismissing everything but your take reaaly concerns me as to your motives.
>
> Michael

> On the first level of the cave in PLANET Cornelius finds "an early ape creature, in a stage of primitive barbarism". On the next lowest level Cornelius found "carniverous gorillas". The next lowest level he finds the human artifacts. The Forbidden Zone was not forbidden until the Lawgiver declared it so. The cave was only a few days from ape city and I don't see any "primitive barbarism" at the end of BATTLE.
>
> It looks obvious to me that the PLANET timeline doesn't have 700 years of "humans and apes living in peace and harmony". That is an extraordinary achievement -- completely unlike anything even hinted at in any of the earlier movies. How the heck could they achieve 700 years of peace with carniverous gorillas only a few days away from their capital? Any society that can achieve 700 YEARS of "peace and harmony" like they did in BATTLE is doing a hell of a lot better than we are, so I wouldn't worry too much about what happens later.
>

--- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> If Cornelius meant to tell the Commission that Milo had found Taylor's
> ship in a body of water that he previously (and consistently) referred
> to as a lake, then why not just say: "Milo found it IN A LAKE, washed
> up on shore"? I've taken advantage of Cornelius' consistent
> differentiation of "lake" and "sea" to postulate that Milo indeed
> found the "third ship" on the beach of the Ocean, the "seaboard". It
> fits the facts, and helps to differentiate the obviously different
> ship from the sunken ship from PLANET.

> Agreed, but it is a bit of a stretch for you to claim that they
> definitely did because they could. I am not saying they didn't. I
> am saying that offering a possibility is not proving a scenario.
> Agreed?
>
> Michael

>
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Theoretical Clocks
> --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
>
> Because "Taylor and his crew could easily estimate the validity of
> Hasslein's theory just by observing how the stars move about
> relative to each other and to their ship", it does not follow that
> they did this and there is nothing in the story that suggests they
> did***.
>
> Michael
>
> *** ...and there is nothing in the story that suggests that they did
> not.
>
> Patrick

> I don't like your (implied) tone here.
>
> Who knows what they did for the first 6 months?
>
> And to suggest that they had to be doing what is logical for them to
> do is to ignore the fact that there is a whole lot of stuff going on
> in the story that makes no sense.
>
> C'mon yourself Patrick. If they had proven Hasslein's theory, why
> don't they ever refer to the fact that they had proven it?

> Again I conclude there is little point in conversation with you
> because your beliefs are unshakeable.
>
> Whether you believe it or not, your scenarios are impaired, just like everybody else's, and your "logic" has some very presumptuous foundations.
>
> Michael
>
> *** ...and there is nothing in the story that suggests that they did
> not. And, c'mon! Answer me this: what the hell ELSE did they have to
> do during that 6 month period between Liftoff and Hibernation? Don't
> you think that they would have had as one of their priorities the
> TESTING of "Hasslein's hypothesis"? Christ Almighty! but the success
> or failure of that very theory is at the HEART of their mission. I
> should think that the most responsible thing for them to do--at the
> earliest possible & convenient time--is to do just such a test of
> Hasslein's theory, just in case what Hasslein THOUGHT would probably
> happen (in accordance with what he'd theorized would happen) was
> drastically DIFFERENT from what the astronauts could perceive to be
> happening... merely by looking out the damn front window!

> The one I read looks a lot milder than that. I think they were showing the obvious: that individual prejudice still exists and will always exist. They were also throwing Jacobs a bone. But the Corrington's took away Zaius' whole reason to hate Taylor which pretty much erases PLANET.

> In a message dated 6/26/2002 10:10:55 AM Central Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > they knew that the Plague would strike in only 10 years time (i.e.
> > 1973 + 10 = 1983),
>
> The plague in "Conquest" would have already happened, and ended by the alleged 1983 date. Doesn't Armando tell Caesar about the plague at the pet monument which was dated 1982? It would have already happened and ended by the 1983 date you're trying to make a story out of. After all,the monument says "In Memory 1982" doesn't it?

> In a message dated 6/26/2002 1:36:45 PM Central Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > But what matters most, here, is what CORNELIUS says. It is Cornelius who mapped the Forbidden Zone;
>
> Where and when is it ever said Cornelius is the one who mapped it? Just because he owns a map, doesn't mean he was the one that laid it out. And, yes, I know "he can even draw one.." Still, that doesn't prove he is the mapper of the Zone.

> >that even die-hard conservatives who advocated a firm stance against Communism did so out of motives that--in their own way--were as pure as the so-called liberal "good guys". The foundations of Communist philosophy are a recipe for disaster--for endless class warfare (the
>
> Patrick, are you aware that people tend to glaze over your stuff because so much of it seems to be either irrelevent or far-fetched? [*** So, when did you acquire the authority to speak on behalf of the "people"? You speak for everybody else? Did I miss the "election" when all the other Yahoo POTA members elected you fuhrer? Yeesh!]

> You seem like you spend all your spare time making a bunch of 10 page post to POTA. But how about looking for some other Yahoo groups or Usenet newsgroups and start reading them and spreading around some of your ideas to other places besides just POTA? I bet that would benefit both you and the group.

> >> In case anyone in the audience still couldn't figure out that the
> bad guys are conservatives BENEATH is even more blunt. Zira says
> about Zaius "He has but one motive. To keep things exactly the way
> they have always been". Which is the very definition of
> "conservative".

>
> >[*** Actually, the word "conservative" refers more to
> >the idea of LESS-government; a "conservative" approach means that
> >which involves a MINIMUM of effort/input. Zira states that Zaius
> >wants to keep the "status quo"--where he and the other "top
> >orangutans" are in control of the government
>
> Get a dictionary and look up the word "conservative". What Zira says about Zaius -- "He has but one motive. To keep things exactly the way they have always been" -- fits the definition EXACTLY. Instead of doing that you'll post 10 pages of off topic 1980's style political propaganda which was nonsensical right from the start. BENEATH and PLANET were written a long time before the "conservatives" of the 1980's, and Dr. Zaius EXACTLY fits the definition of a real conservative. Zaius says NOTHING about the size of government, but it is obvious that the conservative authoritarian government in POTA is too big and repressive BECAUSE it is too conservative. (Also true in CONQUEST).

>
> Here's a theory for you Patrick. If you could get through all the higher mathematics without your brain seizing up, you find out that creation can't possibly work. The numbers are just so astronomically high so that Patrick doesn't find God's flubs. Hows that for a theory, eh?

> Conservatives see THEMSELVES as people
> who advocate LESS GOVERNMENT, as opposed to their ideological
> opposites--the "liberals"--who want MORE government intruding

> is not constitutionally sanctioned to do so. So-called "liberals"

> conservatives NOT as people advocating "less government" but,

> as those who seek to perpetuate the "status quo".

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/30/2002 9:53:13 AM Central Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > He only referred to it once as "Dead Lake." As you see by the
attached it
> > wasn't a lake at all. Technically is was a bay. So Cornelius'
terminology
> > is not that exact.
> >
>
> This isn't what Patrick said. He said that
Cornelius "consistently" refers to
> it as a lake, so it must be. We who dare to even think otherwise
are always
> wrong, always. I'm sure you'll be getting an essay on where you're
attachment
> is wrong too.

>
> *** You're forgetting the previous debate over the location of

> unnamed city and Caesar's tree-house "Ape City" relative to the
> location of the "Ape City" from PLANET and BENEATH. There are

> who insist that Caesar's people live in the SAME territory that is
> later occupied by Cornelius & Zira, etc.: the "New York/New

> area.
> I have a different view. In my scenario, Breck's city is on the

> Coast, a "futuristic" arcology set up about halfway between San
> Francisco and Los Angeles. Eventually, this initial simian society
> develops into the one we see in the TV series, which is undeniably

> in the mid-California area (San Francisco and Oakland are the

> for the episodes "The Trap" and "The Legacy", respectively). In my
> scenario, AFTER the time of Virdon and Burke, there is a migration

> at least a good chunk of this simian civilization from the

> region to the old New York region, where they INTRODUCED

> where it had not existed since the Nuclear War some 1100 years
> earlier; the reason that the now-NY-based Apes have an Army is

> they had to fight wars against the savage bands of "carnivorous
> gorillas" who dwelt in that area. Although "Ape shall not kill

> when a band of perhaps cannibalistic savage apes are trying to

> on you, self defense is an exception to that "most sacred law".
>
> So, then, at the same time that the nicey-nice Lawgiver from

> telling the tale of Caesar to his congregation--in California--

> are tribes of carnivorous gorillas dwelling thousands of miles

> the area that was once New York/New Jersey. In my scenario, at any
> rate.
>
> Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: <mlccougar@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2002 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: "Sea", I told you....


> In a message dated 6/30/2002 9:53:13 AM Central Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
>
> > He only referred to it once as "Dead Lake." As you see by the attached
it
> > wasn't a lake at all. Technically is was a bay. So Cornelius'
terminology
> > is not that exact.
> >
>
> This isn't what Patrick said. He said that Cornelius "consistently" refers
to
> it as a lake, so it must be. We who dare to even think otherwise are
always
> wrong, always. I'm sure you'll be getting an essay on where you're
attachment
> is wrong too.
>

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> I'm all for looking out for the less fortunate.
> But only support programs that work.
> Don't throw good money after bad.
> The government could get by on less then
> half of what they're getting. That's if you can
> trim the pork! Waste! That's what I'm against!

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> I only hope that the
> guys from Enron, World Com and Anderson
> don't go into politics! That's all we need, feh!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 30 June 2002 23:43
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Taylor's Final Report
>
>
> *** Taylor's "final report" isn't a mere "Dear Diary" entry. He
> addresses an audience ("...you who are reading me now...") which he
> knows cannot be his own crew, since he talks about that crew to his
> intended listeners ("...I've tucked my crew in for the long sleep...),
> differentiating between the "crew" and "you who are reading me now".
> Taylor's unknown "audience" has to be those back on planet Earth--yet
> not those who were alive in 1972 when he launched from Cape Kennedy:
> "...this much is probably true: the men who sent us on this journey
> are long since dead and gone... YOU WHO ARE READING ME NOW ARE A
> DIFFERENT BREED--I hope a better one."
> This line doesn't make any sense unless his message is being broadcast
> back towards the Earth, to the descendants of the dead men who were
> alive before the SHIP-TIME and EARTH-TIME chronometers began to
> diverge from their original synchronized date. The EARTH-TIME clock
> has clicked ahead to 2673 A.D., and will continue to click ahead to
> 11-25-3978 due to "Dr. Hasslein's theory of Time in a vehicle
> travelling nearly the speed of light". That effect of Time Dilation
> has kept Taylor and his crew alive for over 700 years of Earth-Time,
> and Taylor DOES NOT KNOW how things progressed on Earth during that
> span of time, hence his "hope" that whomever MAY end up listening to
> his message has been an improvement on 20th Century Mankind--"a better
> ...breed".
> When Taylor says to his probably non-existent audience "Tell me,
> though...", he is pretending to be having a conversation with
> "somebody". He doesn't know if anybody on Earth in the far future will
> be on the lookout for his periodic reports, hence his line "...IF
> ANYBODY'S LISTENING, THAT IS..." If this were some "Captain's Log"
> diary entry that he intended as a sort of report ON the Mission TO the
> same Mission, would he say this? It wouldn't make any sense for him to
> do so. He's asking rhetorical questions of an audience he doesn't know
> is even out there listening anymore, philosophical questions about how
> Mankind progressed; did that "marvel, that glorious paradox" go on to
> even greater things... or did it still wallow in the ditches, making
> war and promulgating famine in neighboring countries. He asks this
> question of those who know the answer, yet cannot answer him back.
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > I don't know how you draw the conclusion that anything you say
> here clinches anything.
> >
> > What you say here is evidence that Taylor believes they are "in
> the future".
> >
> > The reference to whether anyone is listening certainly IMPLIES
> a "live" broadcast, but could also mean that Taylor thinks
> mankind has destroyed itself and there is nobody left to listen.
> >
> > Give me some evidence that his recording could not be a
> "Captain's Log" - ie a ship's log that would stay with the ship.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> > > Sent: Thursday, 27 June 2002 2:26
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: The Hatch of the ship
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > > I always thought Taylor's report was simply a recording
> that stayed on the ship, just as civil servants make and file
> reports all the time and as trekkies do in their "Captain's Log".
> Is there any evidence that these reports were being sent anywhere?
> >
> > Michael
> > >
> > > *** Taylor, speaking to whomever will eventually hear his "final
> > > report" says, "You who are reading me now are a different breed--I
> > > hope a better one. I leave the Twentieth Century with no
> regrets. But, one more thing... if anybody's listening that is..."
> > >
> > > Later on, Taylor tells Landon, "Even if you COULD get back
> [i.e. to the planet Earth], they'd think you were something that
> fell out of a tree."
> > >
> > > I don't think it's likely that Taylor would address anybody
> on his own crew (after another 12 months of Ship-Time
> hibernating) as "a different breed" whom he hopes will be "a
> better one" than the breed of humanity he left behind in the 20th
> Century. He, knowing that "almost 700 years" have gone by on
> Earth, can only be sending out a report to whomever is still
> there on planet Earth, centuries ahead of the time he left it, in 1972.
> > >
> > > I think that clinches it.
> > >
> > > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > > EARTH-TIME 6-26-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> Sent: Monday, 1 July 2002 0:18
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re:Timeline issues
>
>
> > Patrick, do you really think that Cornelius thought there were other
> > english speaking apes at the time? I thought all 3 apes realised
> > that the apes of the time were the equivalent of humans in the
> > future - not speaking and not evolved in their intellect. This may
> > just be something I have assumed though.
> >
> > Michael
>
> *** Milo says that "apes, at this instant in Time, cannot yet speak; I
> suggest we follow their example". However, it may be that Milo doesn't
> know as much about their ancient "prehistory" as does Cornelius.
> I think it's not only possible, but PROBABLE, that Cornelius did
> indeed know that there were English-speaking Apes on Earth about 2000
> years prior to his own time. He straightforwardly says this to the
> Commission when he is asked about "English".
> Cornelius knows more about his era's past than most, due to his
> archaeological findings and his exposure to the "secret scrolls" kept
> hidden from the masses. Let's assume that among those mysterious
> scrolls are various versions (even several irreconcilable ones, sort
> of "mythic" re-tellings from cultic viewpoints) of the "origins" of
> the Simian kinds (Chimp, Gorilla, Orang). Perhaps he even has read a
> later version of the scroll the Lawgiver reads from in BATTLE, which
> depicts the critical moment when "God sent the World a Savior" who had
> been "miraculously born" from parents that came "from Earth's own
> future"--perhaps a later version referred to that Future as "the Time
> of the End", as REVELATION refers to the "Latter Days", the "End
> Times", etc.
> Cornelius, as a student of mythic stories relevant to his study of the
> Past, might have thought that just as there was once supposed to have
> been a God-created FIRST COUPLE (male and female) to start the
> bloodlines of Simians (which, somehow, branched off into 3 main
> populations: Gorillas, Chimps, Orangutans), so too would there be at
> the End of Time ANOTHER, "last couple". In GENESIS, you have Adam and
> Eve; in REVELATION, you have the "two witnesses" who are killed and
> miraculously resurrected prior to the Second Coming. The symmetry of
> an initial "pair" and a final "pair" might be thought of as a sort of
> "literary motif" in cultic/mythic literature. Jesus tells his
> disciples that the Judgment would be just like "in the time of Noah"
> (although the divine punishment would not be a Flood--but a Fire),
> connecting the "history" of the BEGINNING with the prophetic "future
> history" of the END.
> However, after having Time-traveled back from 3955 to 1973, perhaps
> Cornelius rethinks his assumptions about that strange old "secret
> scroll" which told of a "savior" whose parents came from "Earth's own
> future": perhaps it dawns on him that HE AND ZIRA actually ARE those
> "mythic characters" who were supposed to have been present at the End
> of the World. Having actually seen "the Earth... destroyed" (as he
> tells Dixon & Branton), perhaps he re-evaluates the validity of those
> crazy old myths... and realizes that that supposedly mythic character
> from the "secret scrolls"--"Caesar"--is actually his own unborn SON.
> Why, then, doesn't he insist on naming his son "Caesar" after it is
> born? When the baby chimp is born, Cornelius asks, "What shall we
> name...?" Dixon, realizing that Cornelius was wondering about the
> child's gender, says, "Him." And Zira says, "Milo." She wants to name
> the kid after their genius friend. Cornelius assents to this, perhaps
> thinking that a SECOND child might then be named "Caesar". Hell, maybe
> Cornelius--knowing that he and Zira are doomed, and that Zira is going
> to switch babies with Heloise's child--secretly tells Armando (who
> knows about the switch, as his dialogue with the inspecting cops
> shows) to re-name their changeling child "Caesar".
>
> Granted, this is all speculative. But that's half the fun.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 6-30-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> Sent: Monday, 1 July 2002 0:32
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: She's a witch...BURN HER!!
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Yes mathematics can be your friend, but you are dry raping it here
> > Patrick, not being friendly.
> >
> > You are applying logic to prove a coincidence and that is not
> > logical. What you are doing is trying to logically prove how a
> > coincidence ocurred. This is either unnecessary (eg a car crashes
> > into another and you explain how this happens by reverting to the
> > speed the cars were travelling at and the distance they covered) or
> > contrived (eg you try to prove someone is a witch by weighing them
> > against a duck - I'm sure you know what I'm talking about from Monty
> > Python and the Holy Grail).
> >
> > A lot of your arguments remind me of that "Witch Hunt" scene in Holy
> > Grail, mathematical or otherwise (ie they wanted to prove she was a
> > witch so they could burn her, so they did just that).
> >
> > Michael
>
> *** Mike, aren't you forgetting something? The gal should've
> outweighed the duck and tipped the scales easily... but the scales
> showed that she did indeed "weigh the same as a duck", which proved to
> the crowd that she was "a witch!" She herself admits that it's "a fair
> cop"--that their verdict of "She's a witch!" is indeed a just one, as
> opposed to the allegation of it, which the demonstration was intended
> to test.
>
> Patrick
>
> P.S. Was that fuzzy little rodent actually a "killer rabbit"? It may
> not have seemed so at first, but... "LOOK AT THE BONES!"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>