Dave, it makes me wonder if, just maybe, the Mendez Dynasty is the
human mirror image version of Zaius and the Lawgiver concept---just
as Zaius knows the truth, but can't share it, maybe Mendez alone
knows this is Doomsday, but is duty bound to keep up the pretence by
checking co-ordinates etc.Mendez has a far away inscrutibility about
him, as if he is aware of a far bigger picture.Lots of relgions hide
truths and maybe the first Mendez decided that a Bomb that could
never be used would not be a good enticement for his followers, and
so he altered the story to found a dynasty and a religion.John,
Scrolls.

.html <.html

He's doing pretty well in the theatre! Altho the
commercials probably pay more than the play does!
Here's a link to his current show on Broadway,
"Democracy"....his bio lists "Farewell to the Planet
of the Apes" only!

http://www.broadway.com/gen/show.aspx?SI=39239---

Tim


Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 3/15/05 8:51:56 AM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> mtotsky@... writes:
>
>
> > I've personally nicknamed those commercials "James
> and the Giant Pill."
> >
> > Oh how the mighty have fallen...and this guy is
> embarressed about the time
> > he spent
> > on POTA????
> >
> > Matt
> >
>
> The dude has to make a living.
>
> -- Rory
>

.html

In a message dated 3/16/2005 7:40:23 P.M. Central Standard Time, apefan23@... writes:

"....his bio lists "Farewell to the Planet
of the Apes" only!

You could read a lot into that.

 

<.html

Couldn't open the bio, but have to ask...

What is "Farewell to the Planet
of the Apes"?

Helen

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@y...> wrote:
>
> He's doing pretty well in the theatre! Altho the
> commercials probably pay more than the play does!
> Here's a link to his current show on Broadway,
> "Democracy"....his bio lists "Farewell to the Planet
> of the Apes" only!
>
> http://www.broadway.com/gen/show.aspx?SI=39239---
>
> Tim
>
>
> Haristas@a... wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 3/15/05 8:51:56 AM Eastern
> > Standard Time,
> > mtotsky@y... writes:
> >
> >
> > > I've personally nicknamed those commercials "James
> > and the Giant Pill."
> > >
> > > Oh how the mighty have fallen...and this guy is
> > embarressed about the time
> > > he spent
> > > on POTA????
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> >
> > The dude has to make a living.
> >
> > -- Rory
> >
>
>
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, <veetus@e...> wrote:

> Once again, my hat's off to "Simian Scrolls"

Aww Jeff, you've gone and made us all blush :0)

I'm very glad that someone who is indirectly responsible for Simian Scrolls finds so much
to enjoy about it.

Look out for issue 11 around August/Sep time

Dave B

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shanter2002" <mail@m...> wrote:

>
>
> Dave, it makes me wonder if, just maybe, the Mendez Dynasty is the
> human mirror image version of Zaius and the Lawgiver concept---just
> as Zaius knows the truth, but can't share it, maybe Mendez alone
> knows this is Doomsday, but is duty bound to keep up the pretence by
> checking co-ordinates etc.Mendez has a far away inscrutibility about
> him, as if he is aware of a far bigger picture.Lots of relgions hide
> truths and maybe the first Mendez decided that a Bomb that could
> never be used would not be a good enticement for his followers, and
> so he altered the story to found a dynasty and a religion.John,
> Scrolls.

Could be, could be... Or MAYBE Mendez truly didn't know how powerful his bomb was and
this was meant as some kind of observation by the film makers to show how Man is all to
willing to play with forces he doesn't understand.

When Mendez gives the go ahead to detonate the Alpha Omega device are the filmakers
saying that as a race, mankind is incapable of learning from his past mistakes (This
arguement assumes that a nuclear war had something to do with man's downfall -
something that isn't, I believe, ever explicitly stated)

Dave

> Once again, my hat's off to "Simian Scrolls" (oh, is that lice?
> Need to take my hat off more often). "Sim Scro # 10" (I call them "Sim
> Scro" because I can) is a mind-bender, page after page of hard work,
> team work and leg work. Those who haven't been getting these will live
> to regret it.

I second what he said! Well, except for the lice part. You have to
have hair to have lice....

Hunter

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "ape_mom" <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:

>
>
> Couldn't open the bio, but have to ask...
>
> What is "Farewell to the Planet
> of the Apes"?

Helen, 'Farewell' was the title of one of those spliced together... eh-ehm... 'movies'.

The others were:

Back to the Planet of the Apes (Escape from Tomorrow + The Trap)

Forgotton City of the Planet of the Apes (The Gladiators + The Legacy)

Treachery and Greed on the Planet of the Apes (The Horse Race + The Tyrant)

Life, Liberty and Pursuit on the Planet of the Apes (The Surgeon + The Interrogation)

Farewell to the Planet of the Apes ( Tomorrow's Tide + Up Above the World So High)

Dave

.html <.html

.html Rory sent you an eCard! To view your eCard, click on the following link:

http://www.00fun.com/stpatrickcathedral123..html"

Now and ever shall be, world without end -- at least if you believe in that time loop thing!

By the way, you can win actual money by playing free solitare and other neat games at this site:

http://www.00fun.com/solitaire..html"

Hopefully, you'll send me back a greeting! You can pick it out over here...

http://www.00fun.com

Thanks for using 00FUN.com! <.html

rob/ron,

Sure, it's fine with me -- especially if someone might have some
ideas.  I don't have a vanity issue about finding her.  I just think
it's important that we do find her.  I would love to hear that
someone already knows where she is!!

Helen



--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, ron kenner <brindlepit2002@y...> wrote:
> ape mom-
> i have followed your research with great interest.
> may i share your findings with some of my off-list freinds?
> rob/ron
> oosa
>
> ape_mom <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:
>
>
> First, I'd like to thank Greg P. and James and Tim for their
> interest in the Finding Milo Project.  It was very helpful to find
> the name of our chimp, and having pictures and video has been
quite
> revealing!  I'm actually a bit brain dead right now, so any new
> ideas would be really appreciated.
>
> Wally Swett, Sarah Baeckler, Marc Beckoff, Robin Dickson and
> countless others have kept me focused and offered assistance with
> their human resources, and I'd like to acknowledge that any
> information that I do have is compiled from bits taken from all of
> these sources and more.
>
> Without a huge amount of confirmation, I'd like to share what I
have
> right now and the direction that my search is going.
>
> It is believed that Kelly was privately owned and "furnished" to
the
> set by Roy Kabat.  There is information in Joe Russo's
book "Planet
> of the Apes Revisited" that she came from Europe.  Kim talks in
the
> book about her cagemate who died of Hepatitis on the way.  It was
> believed that our chimp was 6 months old at the time of filming,
> having arrived from Europe not long before that. 
>
> Wally Swett from Primarily Primates was approached at one point by
> her owner to take her, but he didn't have room at his sanctuary. 
He
> referred the ower to Genus pan.  It is likely that she went
there. 
> In any case, Wally believes that she went from there to the track
> that most chimps used in entertainment go, and that she became a
> research chimp.  There is a chimp recorded at The ChimpanZoo
> database that seems to support this "history". 
>
> The database has information on a female chimpanzee named Kelley
> that roughly follows the life course Mr. Swett described.  
Kelley,
> stud # 0248 first shows up in the records in 1968; there is no
> information on her mother or father.  It is believed that Kelley
was
> sent to the Houston Zoo in 1969 and then transferred to the
Detroit
> Zoo on February 25, 1972.  Kelley then spent a number of years
> in research institutions: Lemsep (2/3/76), Southwest (9/10/79) and
> finally Bastrop (6/9/81).  Kelley would be about 37 now.
>
> We were thrown by the age descrepency, as the chimp in the movie
> would have to have been about two years older than has been
> recorded.  The pictures that we were able to send to Sarah
Baeckler
> confirm that the chimp in the movie was actually 18 months to 2
> years old -- meaning that the chimp didn't arrive from Europe at 6
> months old, as Kim's comments would have suggested.  That would
put
> Kelley's age much closer to the age of the Bastrop chimp.
>
> I have finally made a contact at Bastrop and I should be receiving
> more information this week.
>
> The bad news is that many chimps at Bastrop were used for AIDS
> research.  Although chimps proved to be poor models, those that
were
> infected with the virus have been kept in isolation since their
> exposure years ago.  If she was used as for this purpose, she
would
> never be given an opportunity for retirement, as she couldn't be
> socialized with other chimps and would always need to be kept
alone.
>
> The good news is this...  I have been referred to a doctor in
charge
> of psycho/social research.  That is a really good sign because if
> Kelley is being used in this way, it is probable that she has not
> been used in AIDS research. 
>
> I don't really have any answers and until things can be all tied
up
> in a nice little bow, there are still a lot of gaps.  I do know
that
> in 2002 a list was compiled of chimps at Bastrop and Kelley's name
> was on the list.  In 2005 that list was revised (unofficially) and
> her name was not deleted.
>
> I'm waiting further information -- hopefully this week -- and hope
> to make contact with a couple ape trainers.  Wish me luck. 
>
> Helen
>
> At the risk of annoying some on the list...  I'm thinking that
it's
> good to pray for God's animals, too, so if you are a praying
person,
> I think it would be good if you'd pray for Kelley.  Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the Group's Internal Website
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/MainPage.htm for Original
POTA One Sheets & Lobby Cards, Trailers & Rare Videos, Trading Cards
and much, much more...
>
>
>
>
>

.html Great card,Rory! Elaine<.html

.html

April's calendar is available in the Files Section:

http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/April2005.jpg

This month's theme is Escape in honor of Bradford Dillman's birthday on the 14th.

 

For those that what a full year calendar:

http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/POTA-Cal.jpg

<.html

I believe they "knew", but didn't REALLY know...Their whole worship
was based upon the Almighty Bomb, who destroyed all devils and
created angels" and the "Holy fall-out", and such...Brent said, "Go
ahead, annihilate each other!", and Caspay replied, "I forgive you
your language," like Brent was being blasphemous...I believe
they "knew" how powerful the bomb was, and what would happen, but
would be "Blessedly Saved" though it...

G

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave B" <dave@4...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shanter2002" <mail@m...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Dave, it makes me wonder if, just maybe, the Mendez Dynasty is
the
> > human mirror image version of Zaius and the Lawgiver concept---
just
> > as Zaius knows the truth, but can't share it, maybe Mendez alone
> > knows this is Doomsday, but is duty bound to keep up the pretence
by
> > checking co-ordinates etc.Mendez has a far away inscrutibility
about
> > him, as if he is aware of a far bigger picture.Lots of relgions
hide
> > truths and maybe the first Mendez decided that a Bomb that could
> > never be used would not be a good enticement for his followers,
and
> > so he altered the story to found a dynasty and a religion.John,
> > Scrolls.
>
> Could be, could be... Or MAYBE Mendez truly didn't know how
powerful his bomb was and
> this was meant as some kind of observation by the film makers to
show how Man is all to
> willing to play with forces he doesn't understand.
>
> When Mendez gives the go ahead to detonate the Alpha Omega device
are the filmakers
> saying that as a race, mankind is incapable of learning from his
past mistakes (This
> arguement assumes that a nuclear war had something to do with man's
downfall -
> something that isn't, I believe, ever explicitly stated)
>
> Dave

James,

Too funny...Are they by chance singing "It's Not Easy Being Green"?...

G

> I believe they "knew", but didn't REALLY know...Their whole

worship

> was based upon the Almighty Bomb, who destroyed all devils and
> created angels" and the "Holy fall-out", and such...Brent

said, "Go

> ahead, annihilate each other!", and Caspay replied, "I forgive you
> your language," like Brent was being blasphemous...I believe
> they "knew" how powerful the bomb was, and what would happen, but
> would be "Blessedly Saved" though it...

I think the leadership of the dynasty probabally knew what it was,
but they also may have believed the bomb's detonation was a
necessary final event for their collective entry into heaven.
Another wrinkle in the story may have been that they were actually
prevented by religious dictate from ever setting the device off
themselves. As they said " We don't kill our enemies, we get our
enemies to kill each other". So the whole thing with Taylor fighting
Brent, and Nova interupting Ongaro's concentration may have been
orchestrated ( Ongaro could have been controling all three of them
right up to his own suicide ) just to get Taylor into the cathederal
in order to set the bomb off.

Yes and no. I sent them an update when I learned of Kelly's name,
but haven't received a reply (directly from them). I've "misplaced"
my original email from them at the beginning of the project, so I
don't have the name of my original contact person. I have received
(either directly or indirectly) emails and input from four of the
authors of the GAP Census Project's report. Inspired by your post,
I sent the most recent information to them at their GAP web site
contact address. I'd be glad for you to go ahead and contact them
if you know the name of someone there. :)

Helen

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, ron kenner <brindlepit2002@y...> wrote:
> helen-
> are you in touch with GAP?
>
> ape_mom <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:
>
>
> rob/ron,
>
> Sure, it's fine with me -- especially if someone might have some
> ideas. I don't have a vanity issue about finding her. I just
think
> it's important that we do find her. I would love to hear that
> someone already knows where she is!!
>
> Helen
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, ron kenner <brindlepit2002@y...>
wrote:
> > ape mom-
> > i have followed your research with great interest.
> > may i share your findings with some of my off-list freinds?
> > rob/ron
> > oosa
> >
> > ape_mom <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > First, I'd like to thank Greg P. and James and Tim for their
> > interest in the Finding Milo Project. It was very helpful to
find
> > the name of our chimp, and having pictures and video has been
> quite
> > revealing! I'm actually a bit brain dead right now, so any new
> > ideas would be really appreciated.
> >
> > Wally Swett, Sarah Baeckler, Marc Beckoff, Robin Dickson and
> > countless others have kept me focused and offered assistance
with
> > their human resources, and I'd like to acknowledge that any
> > information that I do have is compiled from bits taken from all
of
> > these sources and more.
> >
> > Without a huge amount of confirmation, I'd like to share what I
> have
> > right now and the direction that my search is going.
> >
> > It is believed that Kelly was privately owned and "furnished" to
> the
> > set by Roy Kabat. There is information in Joe Russo's
> book "Planet
> > of the Apes Revisited" that she came from Europe. Kim talks in
> the
> > book about her cagemate who died of Hepatitis on the way. It
was
> > believed that our chimp was 6 months old at the time of filming,
> > having arrived from Europe not long before that.
> >
> > Wally Swett from Primarily Primates was approached at one point
by
> > her owner to take her, but he didn't have room at his
sanctuary.
> He
> > referred the ower to Genus pan. It is likely that she went
> there.
> > In any case, Wally believes that she went from there to the
track
> > that most chimps used in entertainment go, and that she became a
> > research chimp. There is a chimp recorded at The ChimpanZoo
> > database that seems to support this "history".
> >
> > The database has information on a female chimpanzee named Kelley
> > that roughly follows the life course Mr. Swett described.
> Kelley,
> > stud # 0248 first shows up in the records in 1968; there is no
> > information on her mother or father. It is believed that Kelley
> was
> > sent to the Houston Zoo in 1969 and then transferred to the
> Detroit
> > Zoo on February 25, 1972. Kelley then spent a number of years
> > in research institutions: Lemsep (2/3/76), Southwest (9/10/79)
and
> > finally Bastrop (6/9/81). Kelley would be about 37 now.
> >
> > We were thrown by the age descrepency, as the chimp in the movie
> > would have to have been about two years older than has been
> > recorded. The pictures that we were able to send to Sarah
> Baeckler
> > confirm that the chimp in the movie was actually 18 months to 2
> > years old -- meaning that the chimp didn't arrive from Europe at
6
> > months old, as Kim's comments would have suggested. That would
> put
> > Kelley's age much closer to the age of the Bastrop chimp.
> >
> > I have finally made a contact at Bastrop and I should be
receiving
> > more information this week.
> >
> > The bad news is that many chimps at Bastrop were used for AIDS
> > research. Although chimps proved to be poor models, those that
> were
> > infected with the virus have been kept in isolation since their
> > exposure years ago. If she was used as for this purpose, she
> would
> > never be given an opportunity for retirement, as she couldn't be
> > socialized with other chimps and would always need to be kept
> alone.
> >
> > The good news is this... I have been referred to a doctor in
> charge
> > of psycho/social research. That is a really good sign because
if
> > Kelley is being used in this way, it is probable that she has
not
> > been used in AIDS research.
> >
> > I don't really have any answers and until things can be all tied
> up
> > in a nice little bow, there are still a lot of gaps. I do know
> that
> > in 2002 a list was compiled of chimps at Bastrop and Kelley's
name
> > was on the list. In 2005 that list was revised (unofficially)
and
> > her name was not deleted.
> >
> > I'm waiting further information -- hopefully this week -- and
hope
> > to make contact with a couple ape trainers. Wish me luck.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > At the risk of annoying some on the list... I'm thinking that
> it's
> > good to pray for God's animals, too, so if you are a praying
> person,
> > I think it would be good if you'd pray for Kelley. Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the Group's Internal Website
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/MainPage.htm for Original
> POTA One Sheets & Lobby Cards, Trailers & Rare Videos, Trading
Cards
> and much, much more...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > pota-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > go vegetarian!
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------

His destiny?

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "lawbody2003" <thaddeus40@h...> wrote:
So the whole thing with Taylor fighting
> Brent, and Nova interupting Ongaro's concentration may have been
> orchestrated ( Ongaro could have been controling all three of them
> right up to his own suicide ) just to get Taylor into the
cathederal
> in order to set the bomb off.

Thanks, James.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, JamesA1102@a... wrote:
> April's calendar is available in the Files Section:
>
>
_http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/April2005.
jpg_
>
(http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/April2005.
jpg)
> This month's theme is Escape in honor of Bradford Dillman's
birthday on the
> 14th.
>
> For those that what a full year calendar:
> _http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/POTA-
Cal.jpg_
> (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/POTA-
Cal.jpg)

Maybe the Mutants didn't see detonating the Bomb as being 'their'
act, but, instead, the ultimate vengeance of their god, as was Kolp's
original intention? I think one reason I love Beneath so much is that
it has new layers every time you look at it.Also, it marks the
arrival of Dehn, arguably the true architect of the Apes mythos.John,
Scrolls.

You're welcome Helen. I hope everyone likes the calendars.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "ape_mom" <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks, James.
>
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, JamesA1102@a... wrote:
> > April's calendar is available in the Files Section:
> >
> >
>
_http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/April2005.
> jpg_
> >
>
(http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/April2005.
> jpg)
> > This month's theme is Escape in honor of Bradford Dillman's
> birthday on the
> > 14th.
> >
> > For those that what a full year calendar:
> > _http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/POTA-
> Cal.jpg_
> > (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Calendars/POTA-
> Cal.jpg)

This week's Lesson from the Lawgiver has been posted. It can be
accessed via the banner on the Yahoo Home Page or by using this
link: http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/LFTL.htm .

Many thanks to Glen for contributing his wonderful art work.

We hope everyone enjoys the "Lessons" as much as we enjoy putting
them together.

I usually do -- but I can't connect to them this time, for some
reason...

G

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
>
>
> I hope everyone likes the calendars.
>

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,
ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...

G

---

> Maybe the Mutants didn't see detonating the Bomb as being 'their'
> act, but, instead, the ultimate vengeance of their god, as was

Kolp's

> original intention? I think one reason I love Beneath so much is

that

> it has new layers every time you look at it.Also, it marks the
> arrival of Dehn, arguably the true architect of the Apes mythos.

I don't know. I think the last three films are pretty lame. Conquest
is the worst. But Battle isn't much better. Anyway, though, I think
you can make a case that the last three films belong to a seperate (
and vastly more infantile ) universe. So its possible to imagine
alternate explanations as to how the apes and mutants originally
came to exist, explanations that make much more sense than those
offered Escape-Battle.

For the apes I would say genetic splicing. Occuring after a nuclear
war. So the argument could be made that they were engineered as
labourers to work on radiated land, and since the vast majority of
the human race would already have perished, a small ape rebellion
could actually succeed, and then over a few generations, the apes
could begin to develope a culture of their own, with their own
myths.


I think with the mutants and their religion the main themes are a
mixture of Christianity and Hinduism. Obviously they are dealing
with the historic shock of the destruction of the human race via
nuclear war, and their own gradual mutatiuon into essentially a
different species. So from Christianity they borrowed the ideas of
the world being a kind of hell, subject to God's punishment, and
their own underground lair as a kind of purgatory. And from Hinduism
they took the ideas of an inner ( a true ) and outer ( false , or
social ) self, which implys reincarnation. That's what I got out of
anyway. They thought the world above was demonic, so they stayed
below. And they thought God had chosen them to be developed into
beings of pure conciousness, a process that took several generations
of the same people reincarnating in the same society. So when they
were suffiently developed, God would send a messanger, Taylor, to
detonate their bomb, and finally destroy hell, and simultaneously
usher them into heaven.

That was a quite interesting opinion. It´s easy to find some of the human myths
and (mis)conceptions in the post-nuclear-war society tand in the apes´ society
as well. Such religious beliefs tend to lead to violence and intolerance, as we
can see today.

This was the best homepage ever! I wish we could send this to "Tony
award winning actor" James Naughton to try and bring him back down to
earth and make him realize that maybe he should be a little more
proud of the goofy formula show he did back in the 70's. I don't
think he'll get fan mail 30 years from now for those commericals. It
bother's me to hear actor's downplay past projects that still mean so
much to so many people... even if its not an award winning project
with the greatest credibility.

Please send me the link to this...

Les

----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <DrZaiusDavis@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 6:42 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Cialis...


>
>
>
> This was the best homepage ever! I wish we could send this to "Tony
> award winning actor" James Naughton to try and bring him back down to
> earth and make him realize that maybe he should be a little more
> proud of the goofy formula show he did back in the 70's. I don't
> think he'll get fan mail 30 years from now for those commericals. It
> bother's me to hear actor's downplay past projects that still mean so
> much to so many people... even if its not an award winning project
> with the greatest credibility.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the Group's Internal Website
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/MainPage.htm for Original POTA
> One Sheets & Lobby Cards, Trailers & Rare Videos, Trading Cards and much,
> much more...
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Here you go: http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "HEMSTOCK" <mail@l...> wrote:
>
> Please send me the link to this...
>
> Les
>
>

Thanks james for the calenders and the Lawgiver
lessons!!
Tim

--- hotscheetz <HotScheetz@...> wrote:

>
>
> I usually do -- but I can't connect to them this
> time, for some
> reason...
>
> G
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James"
> <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I hope everyone likes the calendars.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________

Thanks to the wonders of Cialis, we can now blow our own trumpets---
Scrolls 10 won Fanzine of the Month in SFX Magazine this month, which
is a credit to Dave Ballard, Alan Maxwell and loyal contributors and
readers.Apes bloody well rules!!John, Scrolls.

It's interesting to see that not everybody subscribes to the 'mini
classic' view of Conquest.It is my least favourite Apes film (which
still makes it my fifth favourite film ever)which is odd, because I
think it's Roddy's best performance and has the wonderful Armando.I
just think the whole movie feels rushed and the make-up is really
poor a lot of the time.The censor murders the end of the movie but
even allowing for a lower budget and censors, it's the only film that
doesn't quite click for me as it should.I read Jakes' superb
novelisation a million times before I saw the film, so maybe I'm
comparing, unfairly, my budget free imagination with what's on
screen. John, Scrolls.

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/19/05 7:17:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, mail@... writes:

It's interesting to see that not everybody subscribes to the 'mini
classic' view of Conquest.It is my least favourite Apes film (which
still makes it my fifth favourite film ever)which is odd, because I
think it's Roddy's best performance and has the wonderful Armando.I
just think the whole movie feels rushed and the make-up is really
poor a lot of the time.The censor murders the end of the movie but
even allowing for a lower budget and censors, it's the only film that
doesn't quite click for me as it should.I read Jakes' superb
novelisation a million times before I saw the film, so maybe I'm
comparing, unfairly, my budget free imagination with what's on
screen. John, Scrolls.

CONQUEST has many problems, most of which relate to its low-budget and cop-out ending, but it's still a better movie than BATTLE.  J. Lee Thompson direct CONQUEST with energy and enthusiasm, but BATTLE seems to have been directed by someone who's mind was elsewhere.  I think by BATTLE everyone involved was just tired of the whole thing and had run out of ideas.  The fault was that they were making a film every year.  They should have skiped a year between films, but I think the mentality at the studio was "Let's crank these things out while they're making money."

-- Rory<.html <.html

yeah, i also read the great novel first, (and for
battle, too) so i was expecting a bit more intensity
from both movies.

rob/ron

--- shanter2002 <mail@...> wrote:

>
>
> It's interesting to see that not everybody
> subscribes to the 'mini
> classic' view of Conquest.It is my least favourite
> Apes film (which
> still makes it my fifth favourite film ever)which is
> odd, because I
> think it's Roddy's best performance and has the
> wonderful Armando.I
> just think the whole movie feels rushed and the
> make-up is really
> poor a lot of the time.The censor murders the end of
> the movie but
> even allowing for a lower budget and censors, it's
> the only film that
> doesn't quite click for me as it should.I read
> Jakes' superb
> novelisation a million times before I saw the film,
> so maybe I'm
> comparing, unfairly, my budget free imagination with
> what's on
> screen. John, Scrolls.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

http://home.earthlink.net/~thepittbull/
go vegetarian!






__________________________________

.html

I found the photo and I will post it the file section.

<.html

Just posted the painting that I had painted by a Korean artist back
in 1985 in the file section. The only mistake that he made was color
of the tunic.

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/19/05 9:50:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, brindlepit2002@... writes:

yeah, i also read the great novel first, (and for
battle, too) so i was expecting a bit more intensity
from both movies.

rob/ron

The novelizations were written after the films were out, so the writers were free to improve upon what had been done.

-- Rory<.html <.html

Conquest is the most different and far removed from the original of
any of the sequels. So I can see why it didn't click with many fans.

Personally, I like the film. It was the first of the series that I
anticipated and waited for. There are many problems with it
including the TV-movie feel. But back then many movies were done
cheaply and have that same look to them.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shanter2002" <mail@m...> wrote:
>
>
> It's interesting to see that not everybody subscribes to the 'mini
> classic' view of Conquest.It is my least favourite Apes film
(which
> still makes it my fifth favourite film ever)which is odd, because
I
> think it's Roddy's best performance and has the wonderful
Armando.I
> just think the whole movie feels rushed and the make-up is really
> poor a lot of the time.The censor murders the end of the movie but
> even allowing for a lower budget and censors, it's the only film
that
> doesn't quite click for me as it should.I read Jakes' superb
> novelisation a million times before I saw the film, so maybe I'm
> comparing, unfairly, my budget free imagination with what's on
> screen. John, Scrolls.

You're very welcome. For the lessons thanks should also go out to
Glen, Mark and Elaine for their contributions.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@y...> wrote:
>
> Thanks james for the calenders and the Lawgiver
> lessons!!
> Tim
>

I think that no one was happy with the script to Battle. At least
that's the impression I got from Russo's book. The script just had
no bite or edge to it as the earlier films did. Even the rehiring of
Dehn to rewrite it seems not to have helped.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
> CONQUEST has many problems, most of which relate to its low-budget
and
> cop-out ending, but it's still a better movie than BATTLE. J. Lee
Thompson direct
> CONQUEST with energy and enthusiasm, but BATTLE seems to have been
directed by
> someone who's mind was elsewhere. I think by BATTLE everyone
involved was
> just tired of the whole thing and had run out of ideas. The fault
was that they
> were making a film every year. They should have skiped a year
between films,
> but I think the mentality at the studio was "Let's crank these
things out
> while they're making money."
>
> -- Rory

Congrats John. It is well deserved. And thanks for the suggesting
the current home page pic. Everyone seems to like it.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shanter2002" <mail@m...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks to the wonders of Cialis, we can now blow our own trumpets--
-
> Scrolls 10 won Fanzine of the Month in SFX Magazine this month,
which
> is a credit to Dave Ballard, Alan Maxwell and loyal contributors
and
> readers.Apes bloody well rules!!John, Scrolls.

Thanks Kevin. Here a link so everyone can view the painting:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Zira%20painting.jpg

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <PofTAfan@a...> wrote:
>
>
> Just posted the painting that I had painted by a Korean artist
back
> in 1985 in the file section. The only mistake that he made was
color
> of the tunic.

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/19/05 10:15:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Personally, I like the film. It was the first of the series that I
anticipated and waited for. There are many problems with it
including the TV-movie feel. But back then many movies were done
cheaply and have that same look to them.

You also have to remember that at the time Fox was in financial difficulty and that one of the reasons they cranked out the APES sequels was because they knew they'd turn a profit.

Yes, there are many films from the studios in the early seventies that have the same look and feel as CONQUEST.  All the studios were hurting then.

-- Rory<.html <.html

> It's interesting to see that not everybody subscribes to the 'mini
> classic' view of Conquest.It is my least favourite Apes film

(which

> still makes it my fifth favourite film ever)which is odd, because

I

> think it's Roddy's best performance and has the wonderful

Armando.I

> just think the whole movie feels rushed and the make-up is really
> poor a lot of the time.The censor murders the end of the movie but
> even allowing for a lower budget and censors, it's the only film

that

> doesn't quite click for me as it should.I read Jakes' superb
> novelisation a million times before I saw the film, so maybe I'm
> comparing, unfairly, my budget free imagination with what's on
> screen.

I've always thought it was a bad movie. In almost every way. Badly
written and directed. I guess the acting is ok, but there isn't much
in the film that is thought-provoking, or even remotely plausible.
To me its in the Plan 9 From Outer Space catagory, but without the
obvious "this-is-intended-as-a-stupid-movie" flavour. So with me
anyway I always end up feeling the whole film is embarrasing.

.html

In a message dated 3/19/2005 7:17:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mail@... writes:

It's interesting to see that not everybody subscribes to the 'mini
classic' view of Conquest.It is my least favourite Apes film (which
still makes it my fifth favourite film ever)which is odd, because I
think it's Roddy's best performance and has the wonderful Armando.I
just think the whole movie feels rushed and the make-up is really
poor a lot of the time.The censor murders the end of the movie but
even allowing for a lower budget and censors, it's the only film that
doesn't quite click for me as it should.I read Jakes' superb
novelisation a million times before I saw the film, so maybe I'm
comparing, unfairly, my budget free imagination with what's on
screen. John, Scrolls.

You (and Rex Reed) and the only 2 people I've ever heard 'dis' Conquest. I find it the most exciting next to the first film but  you are of course entitled to your opinion...one of these days I'll dig out Rex Reed's review of the films of summer 1972 called "A cinema summer of rats frogs and apes" and send it to the files. Very interesting reading.

Bruce

<.html

.html

In a message dated 3/19/2005 9:55:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

The novelizations were written after the films were out, so the writers were free to improve upon what had been done.

-- Rory

Doesn't the Conquest book start with the wounded chimp running around the city til he's captured? I believe that scene was filmed and omitted. Breck refers to it later in the film.

Bruce

<.html

.html

In a message dated 3/19/2005 11:06:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, thaddeus40@... writes:

I've always thought it was a bad movie. In almost every way. Badly
written and directed. I guess the acting is ok, but there isn't much
in the film that is thought-provoking, or even remotely plausible.
To me its in the Plan 9 From Outer Space catagory, but without the
obvious "this-is-intended-as-a-stupid-movie" flavour. So with me
anyway I always end up feeling the whole film is embarrasing.

Really! I guess I'm in the minority. I love Conquest. Visually  I think it's the second most exciting of the series.True the script is a little lame but it's still my favorite to watch.

Bruce

<.html

Very Nice painting!

I could resist a quick spot of re-touching and I've uploaded the
results.

Right, I'm off on vacation for two weeks and look forward to
catching up on loads of posts when I get back.

Be good,
Dave B

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@a...>
wrote:

>
>
> Thanks Kevin. Here a link so everyone can view the painting:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/Zira%20painting.jpg
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <PofTAfan@a...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Just posted the painting that I had painted by a Korean artist
> back
> > in 1985 in the file section. The only mistake that he made

was

> color
> > of the tunic.

.html

By the way is the set of French Lobby Cards from Conquest anywhere on this site? I can send the images if not. Some are standard shots but there's a couple of unusual images as well.

Bruce

<.html

.html

The touch-up is excellent. Good job!

<.html

> Really! I guess I'm in the minority. I love Conquest. Visually I

think it's

> the second most exciting of the series.True the script is a

little lame but

> it's still my favorite to watch.

Well each to their own I guess. I think alot of people like movies
for nostalgic reasons. I know I do. They're like songs...they bring
you back to those times...But Conquest visually?? I can't say its
much better than a bad episode of the original Star Trek. The Ape
rebellion doesn't look like much more than a university cafetria
riot.

The first film had a kind of haunting realism to it. Especially the
begining and ending. There something about that last scene on the
beach when Cornilius is reading Zaius's book, I don't know, its hard
to explain, but somehow the sound of the waves, and the sense of
isolation, its seems simultaneously natural and alien, pre-historic
and futuristic, almost Biblical.


The last three are pretty much all throw aways. I'd grade them
Esccape: 2 and 1/2 stars out of 5. ( 70's fluff )
Conquest: 1/2 star ( virtually unwatchable )
Battle: 1 star ( if its on tv at 2 in the morning and you can't
sleep, its good for a laugh )

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/19/05 1:13:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, thaddeus40@... writes:

The first film had a kind of haunting realism to it. Especially the
begining and ending. There something about that last scene on the
beach when Cornilius is reading Zaius's book, I don't know, its hard
to explain, but somehow the sound of the waves, and the sense of
isolation, its seems simultaneously natural and alien, pre-historic
and futuristic, almost Biblical.


The last three are pretty much all throw aways. I'd grade them
Escape: 2 and 1/2 stars out of 5. ( 70's fluff )
Conquest: 1/2 star ( virtually unwatchable )
Battle: 1 star ( if its on tv at 2 in the morning and you can't
sleep, its good for a laugh )

Now, I suppose you'll tell me you think BENEATH is nearly as good as the original.

Listen, the last three APES films are B-movies and shouldn't be judged by the standards of A-pictures, but it's BENEATH that I'm still sore about all these years later.  It so coarsens and cheapens the original movie.  Talk about the one true embarrassment of the series -- it's BENEATH -- a mess of a movie.  The last three pictures were really Paul Dehn's valiant attempt to pick up the pieces left by the disaster that was BENEATH.  The resulting films shouldn't be faulted to much, because the studio didn't believe in them enough to properly finance them.

I think BATTLE is the poorest of the sequels, but it's BENEATH that truly sucks.

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html Yes, this homepage is great! I can't stop laughing! Elaine<.html

.html Conquest was the first apes movie I saw at a drive-in back in the dark ages. Therefore,I have a special fondness for it. The problem I had with the movie was, it is too short. At the end of the movie, I felt there should have been more to the story, it felt cut off. Elaine<.html

.html <.html

.html

In a message dated 3/19/2005 1:13:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, thaddeus40@... writes:

The first film had a kind of haunting realism to it. Especially the
begining and ending. There something about that last scene on the
beach when Cornilius is reading Zaius's book, I don't know, its hard
to explain, but somehow the sound of the waves, and the sense of
isolation, its seems simultaneously natural and alien, pre-historic
and futuristic, almost Biblical.

The first film has always been my favorite but with my time so limited I rarely get the chance to sit through it as it's over 2 hours. Conquest is a good one to drop in the DVD player for 90 minutes of fun.

Bruce

<.html

Dave Ballard wrote a great Ape/Mutant story in Simian Scrolls # 7 that I've
enjoyed re-reading a few times over the past few years.

Dan

> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:57:57 EST
> From: taebokitti@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Conquest Sucks?
>
> I have to agree with you about Beneath. I always felt it was like the

writers

> were desperate for a story and came up with the bomb and mutant theme. So
> much more could have been explored about ape society, keeping the story

above

> ground and out of the B movie realm. Elaine
>
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
>
>
> ____________ > ____________

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/19/05 3:46:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

Conquest was the first apes movie I saw at a drive-in back in the dark ages. Therefore,I have a special fondness for it. The problem I had with the movie was, it is too short. At the end of the movie, I felt there should have been more to the story, it felt cut off. Elaine

I first saw CONQUEST at a drive-in too.  In fact, I recorded onto cassette the soundtrack off one of awful speakers that you hung on the window.

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/19/05 4:53:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, stenosaurus@... writes:

The first film has always been my favorite but with my time so limited I rarely get the chance to sit through it as it's over 2 hours. Conquest is a good one to drop in the DVD player for 90 minutes of fun.
Bruce

PLANET is one hour and fifty-two minutes long.  I wish it was over two hours, even if the extra length was little more than the trek through the desert.

-- Rory<.html <.html

I think the sets are what hurt Conquest. My understanding is that
most of the filming was done at Los Angeles' Century City. A neat
location; but you never get the feeling that the story moves beyond
a city block. Plus, much of the movie takes place at night. When you
compare this to the visual appeal of the original movie, with the
gorgeous shots from the desert and the corn field, it doesn't quite
match up. But heck, the budget was laughable. One of my issues with
the POTA series has always been the timeline. Conquest takes place
in 1991. You wonder why they didn't push it a little further back.
That was less than twenty years in the future. Why not build more of
a buffer? The movie has some good points. The Gestapo looking police
lend to an Orwellian feeling. I think Ricardo Montoban and Roddy did
well. I guess I'm an apologist for the subsequent POTA movies.

Like someone else mentioned, they take me back in time to a point in
my youth. I get the same sensation when I hear "Afternoon Delight"
by the Starland Vocal Band (1976?). All of the sudden, I'm playing
with G.I. Joe, being a horrible little league shortstop, and riding
a banana-seat bike around the hometown I have missed for many years.

I'm a former member of the POTA Group. Someone recently sent me an e-
mail (Helen?) and asked if I might want to return. I had drifted
away. But, I'd like to thank Helen for getting me back. I'll
participate as time allows.

.html

In a message dated 3/19/2005 8:37:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

PLANET is one hour and fifty-two minutes long.  I wish it was over two hours, even if the extra length was little more than the trek through the desert.

-- Rory

I knew I should've looked at the time on the DVD cover before I posted this! As usual you are correct Rory. Maybe it just seems long.

Bruce

<.html

> Now, I suppose you'll tell me you think BENEATH is nearly as good

as the

> original.
>
> Listen, the last three APES films are B-movies and shouldn't be

judged by the

> standards of A-pictures, but it's BENEATH that I'm still sore

about all these

> years later. It so coarsens and cheapens the original movie.

Talk about the

> one true embarrassment of the series -- it's BENEATH -- a mess of

a movie.

> The last three pictures were really Paul Dehn's valiant attempt to

pick up the

> pieces left by the disaster that was BENEATH. The resulting films

shouldn't

> be faulted to much, because the studio didn't believe in them

enough to

> properly finance them.
>
> I think BATTLE is the poorest of the sequels, but it's BENEATH

that truly

> sucks.

I don't know. There's alot happening in the first movie, and I guess
it depends on what aspects of the film appealed to you, because some
of those aspects are picked up and developed in Beneath and others
are not. I think your description that it was a "mess"
that "coarsened and cheapened" the original is, unfortunately, very
accurate. I noticed it too. Beneath just doesn't have a masterpiece
type of vibe to it. Especially the first half of the movie might as
well have been one of those Italian westerns. But there are some
good points too it too, once the film gets going in the second part.
It captures the whole alien, creepy, isolated feeling of the
original. Its an adult movie with intelligent themes. There are the
issues of evolution vs. de-evolution, science vs. religion, and the
mutant culture is so overtly symbolic in all of its faustian,
medievil images, its coldness and aloofness, it almost seems like a
perfect archtype of mankinds historic trajectory, enough anyway to
redeem the movie.

The thing that bugs me about the latter three films is not that they
are B-movies, or that they have small budgets, its that they are
basically kiddie films, thoughtless, and there is nothing in them
that makes you think, or just that whole ...wow!!! feeling is
missing.

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/19/05 10:23:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, thaddeus40@... writes:

The thing that bugs me about the latter three films is not that they
are B-movies, or that they have small budgets, its that they are
basically kiddie films, thoughtless, and there is nothing in them
that makes you think, or just that whole ...wow!!! feeling is
missing.

Return to Beneath the Planet of this Argument.

ESCAPE and CONQUEST are not kiddie films.  Both are meant as family entertainment, but definitely have major aspects aimed squarely at adults.  The conclusion of ESCAPE is hardly something to show the kiddies, and the conclusion of CONQUEST actually had to be softened by order of the studio, unfortunately.

BATTLE is most definitely more of a kiddie film, but that's because by that time Fox knew that most of the audience going to the APES films were kids.  It's popularity with kids is kind of what killed the franchise.

-- Rory<.html <.html

I was really surprised to hear how many people hate this movie. I
watch this DVD more than any of the sequels. The emtional level of
this film is far greater than most of the other films. I think Caesar
and Armando show some of the better acting in the Apes series. The
rage Caesar feels sucks me in everytime. Caesars monolouge at the end
gave me chills as a kid and made me want to stand up and cheer for
the apes. The ending should never have been softened up. The action
is as intense as any 70's "b-film" had to offer. The budget did
affect this film and it shows but I'll take the intense, rage driven
Caesar over the timid hippie he became in Battle any day.

Some of you know, that I do repro packaging for Mego figures. Tops on that
list was the Planet Of The Apes packaging. Not so much the American cards
that most of the figures came on (even though I can make those type of cards
for those who want it) but the rarer and splashier designed boxes and
British cards.

Some time ago, I restored all four of the known Planet Of The Apes boxes
(there are 6 characters listed on the side of the box but only four
characters have so far been found in boxes). So here are the Galen, Urko,
Ursus and Astronaut box replicas I make:

http://www.megostore.com/mc/images/usergallery/980112655079.jpg

The other Mego Apes packaging I've been waiting to get was the Palitoy style
card. It's a more dramatic and splashy piece of Apes packaging than the US
cards. It also has nicely rendered cameos pictures of mostly the TV show
characters (Zira is pictured, but she more resembles Lisa, the ape played by
Natalie Trundy. The Dr. Zaius picutres looks like the TV version).

So, here is the Palitoy Planet Of The Apes card replica (sans a few changes
like the character title will be centered over the bubble a bit better):

http://www.megostore.com/mc/images/usergallery/infgigjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjphjph.jpg

It's great to finally be able to make this card.

Best,
Mike

I have to agree with you here. Conquest is getting a bad rap. Sure
it is not the original film, but how many sequels are? On the plus
side is has its own distinctive look & feel. And the tension in the
relationship between Caesar & Breck is as close as your going to get
to Taylor & Zaius in the first film. But it is definately not a
kiddie film as someone put it. Battle was, not Conquest.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "John" <DrZaiusDavis@a...> wrote:
>
>
> I was really surprised to hear how many people hate this movie. I
> watch this DVD more than any of the sequels. The emtional level of
> this film is far greater than most of the other films. I think
Caesar
> and Armando show some of the better acting in the Apes series. The
> rage Caesar feels sucks me in everytime. Caesars monolouge at the
end
> gave me chills as a kid and made me want to stand up and cheer for
> the apes. The ending should never have been softened up. The
action
> is as intense as any 70's "b-film" had to offer. The budget did
> affect this film and it shows but I'll take the intense, rage
driven
> Caesar over the timid hippie he became in Battle any day.

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/05 12:58:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

I was really surprised to hear how many people hate this movie. I
watch this DVD more than any of the sequels. The emtional level of
this film is far greater than most of the other films. I think Caesar
and Armando show some of the better acting in the Apes series. The
rage Caesar feels sucks me in everytime. Caesars monolouge at the end
gave me chills as a kid and made me want to stand up and cheer for
the apes. The ending should never have been softened up. The action
is as intense as any 70's "b-film" had to offer. The budget did
affect this film and it shows but I'll take the intense, rage driven
Caesar over the timid hippie he became in Battle any day.

I'm surprised too.  I'm not really a fan of any of the sequels and would rather that they'd never been made (I think they tarnish the classic reputation of the original.), but to argue that CONQUEST sucks when it's clearly the second best of the sequels puzzles me.

I'd rank the sequels like this:

1. ESCAPE  (I'd give it three stars and say that it cleverly reinvents      the series and is a pretty good movie on its own.  You don't have to have seen any of the other movies to enjoy it.)

2. CONQUEST  (I'd give it two and a half stars and say that although it's a bit tasteless compairing the apes to blacks, it is still intriguing and strikingly shot and directed.)

3.  BENEATH (I'd also give this two and a half stars also but only for its production and makeup, its story sucks and its overall approach is just hokey SF pulp.)

4.  BATTLE (I'd only give this film two stars and say that the makers by this time had given up on the series and that the result is a tired, dreary film that's too silly to be taken seriously.)  [Though I do love reading what the defenders of this movie have to say!]

-- Rory<.html <.html

> I have to agree with you here. Conquest is getting a bad rap. Sure
> it is not the original film, but how many sequels are? On the plus
> side is has its own distinctive look & feel. And the tension in the
> relationship between Caesar & Breck is as close as your going to

get

> to Taylor & Zaius in the first film. But it is definately not a
> kiddie film as someone put it. Battle was, not Conquest.

Well I think it is. I mean here is this movie that is supposed to
provide an explanation for how the apes came into predominance as an
intelligent species and basically answers the question in the first
10 seconds of the film; a plague. OK, a plague. All the dogs and cats
dead. But so what? Why is the human race suddenly evil, stupid, and
lazy. All the dogs and cats are dead so lets train giant gorillas to
come into our homes to wash the dishes, but lets torture them first,
so they are filled with rage. I know thats whats missing from my
life, and would make me feel very comfortable; a giant homicidal
gorilla living in my kitchen. Don't you think its rather infantile
that all the people in the movie are either gestapo type bad guys, or
people who basically don't value their status as members of the human
race? Most of the movie is shots of the apes looking at each other
and then looking at a knife and then exchanging knowing nods and
glances. Ee gads!! Are they up to something? What could it be? And
how exactly does a few dozen apes running down a road with bats and
handguns translate into a world wide rebellion? Wouldn't one tank or
helicopter finish them all off? And that speech at the end?? You
don't think that was childish?? Ceaser calls the rebellion the
begining of "the planet of the apes". Why would he call it that? Who
calls anything the planet of this or that? I'm sorry but that is not
an adult movie.

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/05 10:29:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, thaddeus40@... writes:

And that speech at the end?? You
don't think that was childish?? Ceaser calls the rebellion the
begining of "the planet of the apes". Why would he call it that? Who
calls anything the planet of this or that? I'm sorry but that is not
an adult movie.

You're not going to get an argument from me that CONQUEST has its shortcomings.  Yeah, the explanation for how apes became domesticated and turned into slaves is simplistic, implausible and even silly when you think about it, and the film's budget is way too small for the scope of the tale they're taking on, BUT, I don't think the events of CONQUEST are supposed to represent the takeover of the world by the apes, but instead just the beginning of the revolution. (There's an entire epic movie missing between CONQUEST and BATTLE.)

However, you don't seem to understand, or appreciate, the allegory that's going on in these films.  The apes aren't supposed to be taken seriously by adults as apes, but stand for all the slaves that have ever existed in the history of humanity, human and animal, and how wrong and destructive it is.  As such, CONQUEST is a very adult parable on the evil of slavery.  A little juvenile in approach in many aspects (and I'll agree that in some respects even very juvenile), but I think it's adult in intention.  It's surely far too violent for little kids.  Also, think of the exchange between Caesar and Breck on why man turned the apes from pets into slaves: although it's rather more blatant than similar expressions in the three preceding films, this exchange does serve to underline the fact that, metaphorically speaking, the apes and humans are one and the same -- bestial, too often thoughtless, and sometimes petty.

-- Rory<.html <.html

> Some time ago, I restored all four of the known Planet Of The Apes boxes
> (there are 6 characters listed on the side of the box but only four
> characters have so far been found in boxes). So here are the Galen, Urko,
> Ursus and Astronaut box replicas I make:

> http://www.megostore.com/mc/images/usergallery/980112655079.jpg

Mike recently sent me a Galen box and the quality is unbelievable! I
highly recommend Mike's work to anyone with Megos!

Hunter

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/19/2005 3:53:40 PM Central Standard Time, stenosaurus@... writes:

The first film has always been my favorite but with my time so limited I rarely get the chance to sit through it as it's over 2 hours. Conquest is a good one to drop in the DVD player for 90 minutes of fun.

PLANET is only 112 minutes (8 minutes under the 2hr. mark.) You might as well find another half hour and watch the best of them all...<.html <.html

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/2005 9:29:51 AM Central Standard Time, thaddeus40@... writes:

And that speech at the end?? You don't think that was childish?? Ceaser calls the rebellion the begining of "the planet of the apes". Why would he call it that? Who
calls anything the planet of this or that?

I agree with that! That has always been one of the points that "cheapens" an otherwise decent film... Having him refer to the "birth of the planet of the apes" IS a lowpoint, and I can see why you'd refer to it as "childish"... Not only that line, but then the following whoops and hollars by the apes, as if they are cheering on this title...

*** On a sidenote, the whole referring to the planet as the "planet of the apes" makes the already ridiculous dialog of RETURN even that much worse... RETURN could have been good, had they cut the stupid dialog out and concentrated on just the storyline itself...

<.html <.html

.html How did the recording turn out? I remember those speakers at the drive-in, they didn't always work. Elaine<.html

.html

In a message dated 3/20/2005 12:36:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

PLANET is only 112 minutes (8 minutes under the 2hr. mark.) You might as well find another half hour and watch the best of them all...

When I have 112 free minutes I think I will do just that.

Bruce

<.html

.html I thought Roddy did a great job of acting and how many apes have given speeches like that in a movie? Elaine<.html

.html I am sure there are quite a few people that would want a giant homicidal gorilla full of rage in their kitchen. It would make my life more interesting.Elaine<.html

> BUT, I don't think the events of CONQUEST are supposed to

represent the

> takeover of the world by the apes, but instead just the beginning

of the revolution.

How? Only one of them can speak. A wordwide revolution would be a
monumental feat requiring vast co-ordination and planning. Even by
humans. What plausible scenereio could you suggest that suddenly
some species of animals could do such a thing? There isn't even a
vague aspect of believability to the whole thing. Its about as
realistic as Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang or Marry Poppins.

> However, you don't seem to understand, or appreciate, the allegory

that's

> going on in these films. The apes aren't supposed to be taken

seriously by

> adults as apes, but stand for all the slaves that have ever

existed in the history

> of humanity, human and animal, and how wrong and destructive it

is. As such,

> CONQUEST is a very adult parable on the evil of slavery. A little

juvenile in

> approach in many aspects (and I'll agree that in some respects

even very

> juvenile), but I think it's adult in intention. It's surely far

too violent for

> little kids. Also, think of the exchange between Caesar and Breck

on why man

> turned the apes from pets into slaves: although it's rather more

blatant than

> similar expressions in the three preceding films, this exchange

does serve to

> underline the fact that, metaphorically speaking, the apes and

humans are one

> and the same -- bestial, too often thoughtless, and sometimes

petty.



As to this point I think you've got it backwards. The message of the
film isn't anti-violent. The whole issue of slavery is just used as
an excuse to advocate murder. Basically the film asks you to
sympathize with someone who wants to slaughter people, and even
cheer for him, against your own species. Humans are not the same as
apes, neither metaphorically nor otherwise, no more so than they
are they the same as cows or chickens. Do you think because you eat
meat it would be ok if your mother got trampled to death by a cow?
Morally speaking the movie is fairly disgusting. Slavery doesn't
justify murder. Actually the sub-text of the film is to submit to
your conquerer because he is more violent, more bestial, than you.
The metaphor of submitting to an animal is that you should submit to
your own animal side, identify with it, against any sense of
morality or nobility in human nature, because its morality that
ultimately seperates us from all the other biological lfe-forms on
earth. Once its abandoned, then yes, you are basically an ape. Thats
why all the authority figures in the film are presented as evil.

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/05 4:24:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

How did the recording turn out? I remember those speakers at the drive-in, they didn't always work. Elaine

It was tinny but OK for the time.  Much better when I recorded it off TV a couple years later.

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/05 4:26:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, thaddeus40@... writes:

Basically the film asks you to
sympathize with someone who wants to slaughter people, and even
cheer for him, against your own species.

And what's wrong with that?  You love humans or somethin'?

What kind of APES fan we got here?

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/2005 3:25:06 PM Central Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

I thought Roddy did a great job of acting and how many apes have given speeches like that in a movie? Elaine

I agree with you, Mc Dowall was great in CONQUEST... But the speech should have just ended at the "And that day is upon you now!" line, and forget the softened added on "bullsh*t" ending... That bit wrecked an otherwise great performance at the end of the film... I don't hate CONQUEST, just the cop out they had to do to get the PG rating... I can also see where (and why) people think the movie is bullsh*t because of the absurdity of going from "zoo" apes to slaves in the span of only 20 years... I only look at their doing that so they could carry on continuity-wise (with names, situations, etc.) from the previous films... CONQUEST might have benefitted from being a true "prequel" and shown the original revolution, not the second go round...

<.html<.html

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/2005 6:22:31 PM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

You love humans or somethin'?


Don't it figure?<.html <.html

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/2005 3:25:49 PM Central Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

I am sure there are quite a few people that would want a giant homicidal gorilla full of rage in their kitchen. It would make my life more interesting.

... Until he (or she) gets fed up with you, senses the revolution coming and does you in...

<.html <.html

For some reason, I just got around to watching all of
the TV series episodes. I was fairly impressed. Of
course, a critic would quickly point out that they all
followed a predictable pattern, like any �formula TV.�
But, to their credit, each episode had a story to
tell. So, it�s sort of like discovering fourteen more
mini-sequels. Assuming the episodes were filmed in the
same order that they were broadcast, they actually
seemed to improve over time.

What are the favorite episodes? I think the first
episode (Escape from Tomorrow) was well done; I�m
guessing that was the pilot. Does anyone know why the
episode �The Liberator� didn�t air during the original
run? It was one of the better episodes; portraying a
new type of character, that of a powerful indigenous
human. It was also the only episode to suggest the
thing the audience must have been saying over and
over... revolt!

.html

In a message dated 3/20/2005 9:58:26 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, claudenolen@... writes:

What are the favorite episodes? I think the first
episode (Escape from Tomorrow) was well done; I'm
guessing that was the pilot. Does anyone know why the
episode "The Liberator" didn't air during the original
run? It was one of the better episodes; portraying a
new type of character, that of a powerful indigenous
human. It was also the only episode to suggest the
thing the audience must have been saying over and
over... revolt! 

Besides the ones you mentioned I like "The Trap" and "The Legacy".

Bruce

<.html

I just noticed from the small picture in Chris Sausville's POTA
collectible book (page 104), that it appears the artwork for the 45
record- "Mountain of the Delphi" was done by Neal Adams.

Does anyone have this or the other the other 3 45s? Does Adams do the
art for the other 2 as well?

Anyone have scans of these? I'm a big Neal Adams fan as well as a
POTA fan. I'd love to see these in more detail.

-Ray

I posted the four covers Adams did in the rkid67 photo album. I throw some great stuff in
there from time to time so check it often because I don't like to take up valuable storage.

Mark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <ursus3978@a...> wrote:
> Anyone have scans of these? I'm a big Neal Adams fan as well as a
> POTA fan. I'd love to see these in more detail.
>
> -Ray

Hello.

I have some miscellaneous POTA collectible stuff available for trade:

-TV show trading cards:
1,3,5,7,9-13,25,27-32,34-36,39,41,42,46,48,51,52,62,64
-Original movie trading card #9
-50 trading cards from the 2001 movie
-Beneath, Power records,comic book and 45
-Star Trek/POTA theme music record album by AA records

Stuff I'm looking for:

-Mego "general" boots (repro OK)
-Gen. Ursus belt buckle
-Beneath comic book w/poster from Gold Key
-View master reels
-TV show paperbacks: #2-#4
-Cartoon show paperbacks: #1-#3
-Power records "Movies" album

Let me know if anyone wants to do some dealing. Email me at
ursus3978@...
Thanks.

-Ray

I like apes. And its pretty hard not to like talking apes. What
could be more interesting? I mean look at the first movie; all the
apes, Zaius included, are pretty likable characters, and you can
understand and even admire their motives. And you can even get over
the fact that the apes are butchering humans. Taylor could have
sought revenge for that. He could have strangled Zaius at the end of
the first film. Or led a rebellion that led to the overthrow of the
apes, and enslaved Zira and Cornillius. But it wouldn't have really
been a heroic or noble thing to do. And it would have made for a
less-than-great movie.


Now look at Conquest. The humans aren't slaugtering or butchering
the apes. They aren't even enslaving them. You can't enslave
something that isn't human. All you can do is train it. And that's
what they are doing. They're just training the apes. Now the fact
that anyone would want a big ape in the household to perform tasks
like lighting your cigarette is a pretty lame and unimaginative
concept to begin with. Its about as stupid as someone buying a car
and keeping it in their livingroom so they can drive to the
bathroom. Anyway, though, all the violence in Conquest is coming
from the apes. They are the ones who are murdering people, basically
for no legitimate crime, and then enslaving them. And this is what
the movie asks the audience to cheer for.

The film is also pretty disgusting in its racial overtones. The fact
that Macdonald, a black man, identifies with the apes plight, AS
SLAVES, ( ie; as people ) is meant to underscore the idea that black
people and monkees are one and the same. Of course too the movie was
supposedly based on the Watts Riots. So its pretty awful stuff, and
the film deserves to go down the rat hole as ( maybe ) one of the
worst films of the 70's.


Its too bad. They could have made quite a good film, even with a low
budget. They could have made a kind of "Night of the Living Dead"
takeover movie, about people who were trapped during an ape
uprising, something that could have been three or four centuries
after Escape, ( maybe long after a Nuclear War ) and examined the
effects of a plague ( or radiation ) that weakened human will, and
had different characters serve as symbols of natural ( healthy
minded ) and mutated ( weakened ) minds.


The movie we got, the "apes are people and Ceaser is a hero, so let
the killing and beating commence" film, is almost the opposite, in
every way, of the original, in its morals, and intelligence.

Hi, Mark.

> I posted the four covers Adams did in the rkid67 photo album. I throw some great stuff in
> there from time to time so check it often because I don't like to take up valuable storage.

I'd be happy to host anything you put in there (like large scans of
the four covers). Just email me whatever you want me to host.

Same goes for everyone else.

Thanks!

Hunter
------
Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/
<goathunter@...> http://www.goatley.com/hunter/

Mark,
I should have checked all the files and photo albums first before I
posted. Those are great pix. I wish I could see them in a larger
format.
Imagine how cool it would have been to have had Neal Adams draw any
of the Marvel POTA magazine stories.

-Ray

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <rkid67@y...> wrote:
>
>
> I posted the four covers Adams did in the rkid67 photo album. I
throw some great stuff in
> there from time to time so check it often because I don't like to
take up valuable storage.
>
> Mark
>

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/21/2005 6:44:36 AM Central Standard Time, thaddeus40@... writes:

Of course too the movie was supposedly based on the Watts Riots.

CONQUEST was not "based" on the Watts Riots... Rather, the revolt at the end was based on footage of it, not the actual political aspects of it... The way the apes revolt looked was based on footage of the riots.

<.html <.html

.html Just keep feeding him lots of bananas. Elaine<.html

.html Conquest is definately a fantasy, twenty years is too short for apes to evolve so quickly but then again both of my cats can turn on my computer. Elaine<.html

.html.htmlIn a message dated 3/20/2005 8:58:26 PM Central Standard Time, claudenolen@... writes:

Assuming the episodes were filmed in the same order that they were broadcast, they actually seemed to improve over time.

This they were not... As with a lot of shows, they aren't aired in the same order as they are filmed, and POTA was no exception. The first episode filmed was "The Good Seeds", yet this was the fourth episode to air.

Regardless of their filming sequence, I have to say I disagree with you that they "improved" over time... As I watch that series, I look at how good it started out, and then got weaker as it aired. Episodes like "The Horse Race" and the horrible "Up Above the World So High" should not have even been made...

What are the favorite episodes? I think the first episode (Escape from Tomorrow) was well done; I'm guessing that was the pilot. Does anyone know why the episode "The Liberator" didn't air during the original run? It was one of the better episodes; portraying a new type of character, that of a powerful indigenous
human. It was also the only episode to suggest the thing the audience must have been saying over and over... revolt! 

I'd say about 1/2 of them are really good to excellent episodes.

As far as "The Liberator", it was shown in some areas of the country, but pre-empted in others due to holiday programming. Also on that episode, you state that it was the only one to suggest "revolt"... This is not true... Mikal in "The Tyrant" episode was a revolutionary in a way and died because of it... And, in "The Legacy", there's a line of dialog about a human named Tomar who was a rebel (and again killed for it). There were indications that there were humans that wanted to (or did) fight back against the apes. <.html <.html

This is probably a good example of strange circles my
brain turns in. The TV series, taking place on the
west coast, has the Ape capital of Central City. The
maps suggest that this is located around Kingman, AZ.
In the movies they talk about the east coast capital
of Ape City. In Planet, Cornelius points to a place on
his map roughly around Mount Freedom NJ (ironic, isn�t
it). Are there any more specific geographic clues?
It also occurs to me that Dr Zaius is depicted as
living in both cities. I guess he moved. Seems like
they could have renamed the head orangutan, just like
they renamed the head gorilla (giving us Urko from TV
and Ursus from the screen). But, I�m sure the writers
had no idea that someone would put that much thought
into studying the continuity!

Another semi-geographical question. Has anyone gone
out to the Lake Powell area and photographed some
�then & now� type pictures? For that matter, has
anyone been to Malibu Creek State Park or Zuma Beach
to see if anything is still there? I�ve seen several
pictures on the web showing rusty MASH vehicles at the
old Fox Ranch, but none of the Ape City site recently.




__________________________________

> Some time ago, I restored all four of the known Planet Of The Apes boxes
> (there are 6 characters listed on the side of the box but only four
> characters have so far been found in boxes). So here are the Galen, Urko,
> Ursus and Astronaut box replicas I make:

> http://www.megostore.com/mc/images/usergallery/980112655079.jpg

Mike recently sent me a Galen box and the quality is unbelievable!  I
highly recommend Mike's work to anyone with Megos!

Hunter





Be sure to visit the Group's Internal Website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/MainPage.htm for Original POTA One Sheets & Lobby Cards, Trailers & Rare Videos, Trading Cards and much, much more...

http://home.earthlink.net/~thepittbull/

go vegetarian!

> Regardless of their filming sequence, I have to say
> I disagree with you that
> they "improved" over time... As I watch that series,
> I look at how good it
> started out, and then got weaker as it aired.
> Episodes like "The Horse Race" and
> the horrible "Up Above the World So High" should not
> have even been made...

I somewhat agree with you on the hang glider episode.
Although they may not have known that that would be
the last episode to air, I did think it fitting that
the plot of the final show would focus on stranded
astronauts building a flying machine. It's analogous
to Gilligan deciding to build a boat. The other thing
that makes the final episode special is that (I think)
it's the only time Galen had a love interest. Unless
you count the doctor in "The Surgeon" (but that's an
old flame).

I strongly disagree on "The Horse Race," however.
Check out chapter 8 (An Expert Horseman). Even in the
haze, those mountains in the background are beautiful.
I'd like to build a house right there! I thought the
plot was plausible (if not completely predictable).

> is not true... Mikal in
> "The Tyrant" episode was a revolutionary in a way
> and died because of it...
> And, in "The Legacy", there's a line of dialog about
> a human named Tomar who was
> a rebel

Thanks for the correction! I guess I missed those
lines. Where would we be without DVD?!





__________________________________