--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Rich Handley <handleyr@o...> wrote:
>
>
> Well, sure -- because just like any other work of fiction, fans are
free to
> enjoy and acknowledge whatever parts of the mythos they choose to. I
have
> the first two Superman films on DVD. If the new one is good, I'll
get that
> one, too. Why don't I have the third and fourth? 'Cause in my mind,
> they're so bad that they don't even belong in the same universe as
the
> first two.
>

> In a message dated 1/4/06 9:25:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > Planet of the Apes was produced and conceived as a stand alone story
> > and deserves to be remembered that way.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave B" <smugster2000@y...> wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 1/4/06 9:25:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > JamesA1102@a... writes:
> >
> >
> > > Planet of the Apes was produced and conceived as a stand alone
story
> > > and deserves to be remembered that way.
>
> Rory was asking for a straight Yes or No so I voted Yes. However I
> must elaborate for my own peace of mind.
>
> I can't argue with the above statement by James but I will add that
> from my own POV I felt the sequels - and the TV show - truly
enhanced
> my enjoyment of the original and didn't detract from it in any
way. So
> YES, Planet CAN be regarded as a stand alone and perhaps even
should
> be, but for ME it will always be part of a much larger saga.
>
> The sequels *tried* to add something new but were hampered by so
many
> negative factors. In spite of this they are all, on thier own
terms,
> pretty good - far better than any sequel of the time had a right
to be.
>
> Would APES have become such a part of our lives and endured for so
> long in the public conciousness had it ended with PLANET?
>
> PLANET came first and is technically superior to what followed but
it
> doesn't follow that the sequels aren't worthy of my respect.
>
> Dave
>

>
> I have to say I'm now very curious about Rory's impending

>
>
> Alan
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "ape_mom" <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:
>
> And I am completely circular/loop!
>
> Helen
>

>
> I can see where Rory might be coming from. If Planet has a right to
> stand alone, then an interpretation of the evidence from those

> alone should also have a right to stand on its own without the
> influence of the other movies.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
>
> We should form a club and call ourselves the Loopies;-)
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "ape_mom" <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:
> >
> > And I am completely circular/loop!
> >
> > Helen
> >
>

>
>
>
> Possibly - but then if we're looking at the original movie on its

> we don't need to look at any evidence. Until the sequels started
> playing around with things the timeline wasn't an issue - circular

> alternate, it's completely irrelevant if there are no sequels.
>
> Alan
>

> Oh, never mind. I'll just wait and see what Rory says.
> But...I bet it has something to do with the ship's clock....

>
> There are really 2 seperate "Altered" timeline

>
> But time travel was an established fact in POTA. Assuming one could
> travel forward... why not backward? And if backward, why not in a
> circle... Oh, never mind. I'll just wait and see what Rory says.
> But...

>
> JAMES - Sorry I hadn't gotten back (sorry to all of you)In awhile

> Lots of Holiday Stuff to do and a Father In Law who's battling

> Cancer Jeez.BUT I wanted to tell you James, How unbelievable that

> is.The Pose is Dramatic and your rendering of the Teeth is

> Now I'm on THIS Ape's Group and one other (the Ape's DG) Anyhoo so

> get all the Digests in my E-Mails and I really gotta go look

> back at the old Messages I'm fascinated by this latest debate

> Eastcoast Vs Westcoast Apes (funny sounds kinda like Rap Stars huh?

> Anyhoo Also Welcome to new guy Tom (or is that also on the other

> lol) ah well Happy New Years and again Beautiful Kit James I'm
> Currently Working on my old Addar Models I got for Christmas (I

> feel like I'm 8 again EXCEPT my Painting skills are a wee bit

> now!
> JOHN
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Maxwell" <alan@a...> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Sorry, forgot about this message from a couple of
> days ago which I meant to reply to at the time
> (because we Apes fans just can't get enough of our
> timeline theories after all).
>
> My first issue is with the term "loop with an
> out" - how can this be? Surely history has been
> altered or it hasn't? If Caesar does manage to
> create a new timeline, then surely this is the
> alternate timeline theory, or a variation on it.
> If he's changed history, there's no loop involved.
>
> My second point is with regards to there being two
> alternate timeline theories, the C&Z one and the
> Caesar one. Again, I see these as being the same -
> if Caesar has changed the timeline then this has
> been changed as a result of his actions, which
> were in turn only made possible by his being born,
> which in turn was only made possible by C&Z
> travelling back in time, thus the timeline was
> changed by C&Z's arrival, or at least their
> actions. If Caesar was able to change things, then
> it's only as a result of C&Z putting him in that
> position. These alternate theories are the same
> thing.
>
> New year, same old arguments!
>
> Alan
>

>
>
> In a message dated 1/5/2006 12:41:03 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
> I am completely circular/loop!
>
>
>
> I'm more coil than loop.
> It comes back around
> though off a little bit.
>

>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "ape_mom" <sand_hill_school@y...>

> >
> > But time travel was an established fact in POTA. Assuming one

> > travel forward... why not backward? And if backward, why not in

> > circle... Oh, never mind. I'll just wait and see what Rory

> > But...
>
> I'm not sure that's got anything to do with what I was saying - I

> just pointing out that if one is to treat the original movie as a

> off and completely ignore the sequels, then there isn't an

> about whether there is an alternate or circular timeline. The

> intricacies of how and when apes became intelligent and conquered

> isn't an integral part of the original movie - only that it

> Whether it was a result of apes travelling from the future or

> some genetically superior apes just woke up one day with the power

> speech is irrelevant.
>
> Alan
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
> Okay, so now it's time for me to reveal what was the point I'm
trying to make
> in asking if PLANET has a right to stand alone as a singular piece
of
> cinematic art. I'll try to keep this short.
>
> I think the general consensus here is that PLANET does have that
right. It
> wasn't made with any sequels in mind. Its story concerns Taylor
and what he
> discovers on the planet of the apes, and that the end of the film
is the
> conclusion to that story. This is actually quite obvious and only
those so devoted
> to the entire series (the so-called APES Saga) that they just
can't separate
> the movies themselves would argue that PLANET doesn't have the
right to be
> appreciated as a singular motion picture.
>
> Certainly the Library of Congress thought this way when they put
PLANET on
> the National Film Registry back in 2001 for being "culturally,
historically or
> esthetically significant." They did not put the "Planet of the
Apes Saga" on
> the registry, just the original film.
>
> So what is the point I'm trying to make? Of course it has to do
with
> timelines. Yes, here we go 'round again!
>
> If the original film has a "right" to stand alone -- and you're
going to
> allow it to -- then the timeline of the APES series has to number
two. There has
> to be an original timeline and then an alternate one. If the
original film is
> indeed "the original," which of course it is, but in a larger
meaning that it
> is the origin of the APES film series story, the point or source
from which a
> thing -- in this case a film series -- begins its existence, then
there has
> to be two timelines. The existence of the story in PLANET cannot
depend on the
> events of a sequel that comes much later.
>
> What I'm saying is that the fictional story within PLANET is
PLANET. These
> films are their stories and the stories may be fictional but the
movies aren't.
> They're real things in our world, therefore the existence of
PLANET cannot
> depend on the existence of its sequels. It's simply an
unacceptable artistic
> paradox.
>
> If you're going to contend that the APES series is a closed
timeline loop,
> then you not only deny PLANET of its right to be a singular work
of art, but you
> also deny it the essence of what it is -- an original.
>
> All right, let's hear the arguments pro or con.
>
> -- Rory
>

Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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> If you're going to contend that the APES series is a closed

> then you not only deny PLANET of its right to be a singular work of

> also deny it the essence of what it is -- an original.

>
> It's true that I like to see the apes films
> (but not so much the TV series) as one big saga, and one which

> place in the so called "circular" timeline. BUT, as I've already
> stated, I totally respect the right of the original movie to be

> as a standalone work of art and as I mentioned previously, when I
> watch the original film I usually do see it as its own movie, free

> any of the continuity baggage the sequel brought it.
>
> I don't see how I can't be a believer in the circular timeline and

> the same time see PotA as a true, original one-off and I don't see
> anything in your post that proves otherwise.
>
> Alan
>
>

The Lawgiver is back from his vacation and this week's Lesson from the Lawgiver is now available. It's number 40, can't believe we've done that many. Thanks to Glen, Elaine, Mark, Dave and everyone else that has contributed.

The new lesson can by accessed by clicking the banner on the Home Page or via this link: http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/LFTL.htm

Just a reminder, next Friday we will be beginning our Revolution Comic contest where one member will win a copy of Issue #1 autographed by Ty Templeton. (Sure to become a collector's item one day.) So get out to your local comic store and buy a copy because you'll need it to win. And be sure to send a review. You can either post one directly on the MR comics website: http://www.mrcomics.ca/ or email it to Ty directly at tybunny@... or ty@... .

Also, for those who haven't done so, go sign the Petition to FOX to release the uncut version of Battle on DVD. http://www.petitiononline.com/Battle/ . We need as many signatures as possible as quickly as possible; so everyone get over there and sign.

Finally, check out the Group Website over the weekend. Full scans of the Promotional Heralds are being added. (FYI Arthur Jacobs produced Herald, or mock newspaper, for each of the five original films distributed by local theaters to promote the movies.) Just go to each film's One Sheet page and click on the Herald pic for a full size, readable version, to come up. Planet should be up by tonight and Beneath & Escape tomorrow and Conquest & Battle by Sunday.

The Group Website can by accessed by clicking the banner on the Home Page or via this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/MainPage.htm

Well that's a lot of group business this week. Take care everyone.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, David Giwner <bikergator25@y...> wrote:
>
> Did anyone hear about the Walmart -POTA screw up? They are in
trouble now....
> Dave-NYC...
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Photos
> Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events,
holidays, whatever.
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:
>
> Okay, how about this. POTA is a Dremmel Moto
> Tool. Sure it can be just a drill. But you add Beneath
> and it grinds. Add Escape andit cuts. Add Conquest
> and it routes. Battle is that attachment I really have
> no use for. But it's POTA that drives the whole thing.
> Of course with the optional extras it does more.
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
>
> Here's more on this story....
>
> Wal-Mart 'heartsick' over DVD grouping
> No. 1 retailer apologizes for bizarre racial combinations on Web
site, spoofs poor sales in song.
> January 6, 2006: 11:35 AM EST
>
>
> NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - Wal-Mart is ringing in the new year with
a pair of snafus.
> The retail giant apologized Thursday after its Web site directed
buyers of "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" and "Planet of the
Apes" DVDs to consider DVDs with African American themes.
>
> Wal-Mart said in a statement it was "heartsick" over the offensive
combinations and that its retail Web site was linking "seemingly
random combinations of titles."
> The company said it would shut down its cross-selling system until
the problem was resolved. It said the system was also referring
buyers of movies such as "Home Alone" and "Power Puff Girls" to
African American-themed DVDs.
> Wal-Mart's apology came less than a week after the company played
a spoof song about its disappointing holiday season on a recorded
company phone message.
> The company played a remake of the Christmas classic "Up on the
Housetop" during its weekly recorded sales update Saturday, Reuters
reported. By Thursday, the song was no longer on Wal-Mart's
recording.
> The song, which joked about the retailer's holiday sales
performance and included a reference to the infamous limited laptop
computers it sold and which caused customer brawls, risked angering
investors, public relations experts told Reuters.
> "People get kind of emotional about their money," Christopher
Atkins, head of the global corporate practice at public relations
firm Ogilvy, told Reuters.
> He said there are times when humor is an effective tool for
companies, but when things are not going well, it can appear as if
managers are trivializing major problems.
> -- from staff and wire reports
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haristas@a...
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:28:37 -0500
> Subject: [PotaDG] Wal-Mart Apologizes for Racist Software Glitch
>
>
>
> Wal-Mart Apologizes for Racist Software Glitch
>
> Wal-Mart's attempt to mimic Amazon, NetFlix, and Blockbuster by
providing an automated system that recommends movies based on the
types of DVDs its customers previously ordered came to a crashing
halt Thursday after blogs spread the word that the Planet of the
Apes DVD was linked to "Similar Items" that included DVDs about
Martin Luther King, Dorothy Dandridge, Jack Johnson and Tina Turner -
- all notable African Americans. "We are heartsick that this
happened and are currently doing everything possible to correct the
problem," Wal-Mart spokeswoman Mona Williams said in a
statement. "We were horrified to discover that some hurtful and
offensive combinations are being mapped together. ... We are deeply
sorry that this happened." The company gave no explanation for how
the software program managed to select only films about African-
Americans for the recommendations.
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Fantasy science fiction Science fiction books
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>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> Visit your group "PotaDG" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Fantasy science fiction Science fiction books
Science fiction book club
> Science fiction magazine Science fiction novel Writing science
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>
>
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/6/06 8:35:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> apecalypsenow@y... writes:
>
>
> > Let me tell you a thing. If PLANET '68 features 'Timeline 1', and
> > BENEATH-ESCAPE-CONQUEST-BATTLE-TV SERIES all feature 'Timeline 2',
> > well, then HOW did Cornelius and Zira and Milo 'salvaged' a ship
in
> > the first place if PLANET never happened in 'Timeline 2'?
>
> BENEATH is part of Timeline 1! I've never said it wasn't. Timeline
2 begins
> with ESCAPE.
>
> -- Rory
>

> No. You're saying that PLANET got a 'class' of its
> own in comparison
> with the SEQUELS. BENEATH is a sequel, so basically
> the movie depictes
> the events of a dimension PARALLEL (or alternate) to
> the *ONE* we
> viewers experienced in POTA'68.
>
> BENEATH's Taylor is a separate being to POTA's
> Taylor. In BENEATH
> Taylor 2 experienced SIMILAR events to those spent
> by Taylor 1, but
> something is also very different.
>
> According to your theory, that's why in BENEATH the
> year is 3955 A.C.
> while in POTA'68 the year is 3978 A.C.
>
> It is a very funny theory, even plausible.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 1/6/06 8:35:56 AM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> > apecalypsenow@y... writes:
> >
> >
> > > Let me tell you a thing. If PLANET '68 features
> 'Timeline 1', and
> > > BENEATH-ESCAPE-CONQUEST-BATTLE-TV SERIES all
> feature 'Timeline 2',
> > > well, then HOW did Cornelius and Zira and Milo
> 'salvaged' a ship
> in
> > > the first place if PLANET never happened in
> 'Timeline 2'?
> >
> > BENEATH is part of Timeline 1! I've never said it
> wasn't. Timeline
> 2 begins
> > with ESCAPE.
> >
> > -- Rory
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 1/6/2006 5:44:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, bikergator25@... writes:

The problem was that the movies reccommened where BLACK movies, such as Martin  Luther King movies and other Black films..
 So many Blacl activists are up in arms..... 

 

Ol' Sammy Davis saw it as a poignant

statement in the state of race relations.

He had the Lawgivers Statue in his garden.

 

 

---

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--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
>
> PLANET doesn't tell you anything about how it came into being.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
> Just another reason why I insist the original has a right to be free
of its
> sequels.
>
> -- Rory
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
> Let me ask everyone this... What if Hasslein had shot the the right
baby
> chimp? What would have happened then?
>
> -- Rory
>

>
> At last! Someone who thinks that the last three movies are not

> I read the last posting and I think that he made some sense about

> timeline and the alteration of earth's future.
>
> Thank You!!
>
> Kevin
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
>
> No, it isn't. All it means is that Dehn was sloppy.

You're right Dehn was very sloppy. But his sloppiness is not proof of an alternate timeline just that he was sloppy. Dehn messed up the time clock in Beneath. Does that mean that Brent landed in an alternate timeline from Planet where the events took place in 3955 rather in 3978? No it just means Dehn was sloppy.

> BENEATH makes it evident that the nuke war happened in the late twentieth       > century from what we see of the ruins.

True as does the artifacts in the cave that date the human civilization existing 2000 years earlier.

> Why then would Dehn have Cornelius tell in ESCAPE that apes were
> slaves for hundreds of years?

Why would he have Cornelius say earlier in Escape that Apes had been speaking English for 2000 years? Because Dehn was sloppy.

> Because Cornelius is supposed to be lying?
> Seems to me that Cornelius completely believes what he's saying, and Zira too.
>

I've never thought that C&Z were lying. But the events they related were not events that they themselves (or the audience) witnessed. Thus, the evidence that it happened exactly they way they told it is hearsay. In fact since the writer of the 'Secret Scrolls' could not have possibly witnessed the events himself, the evidence is hearsay of hearsay.

An alternate timeline is one way to explain the discrepencies. Just not the only way.

> No, I think that Dehn was just adapting the scenario that Boulle laid out in
> the original novel.

Good point. I'll agree with you here. I'll also point out that when each sequel was made they thought it would be the last. Therefore, when Dehn was writing the script, he most likely never thought his discrepencies would catch up with him.
>
> I've just realized something... It's the birth of Baby Milo (Caesar) that
> changes the timeline!
>
> Let me ask everyone this... What if Hasslein had shot the the right baby
> chimp? What would have happened then?
>
That's like asking what would have happened if Taylor, Landon & Dodge had walked in a different direction from the lake. We have no way of knowing until the writers tell us.  

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "apecalypsenow" <apecalypsenow@y...> wrote:
>
> APELINE ONE: Surely the Nuclear War could have happened in the end
> of 2200 A.C., and the Apes could have spent the 'remaining' 300
> years as SLAVES for the Survivors 'til ALDO's "NO" pronunciation,
> but the TV SERIES is part of the SAGA, I don't like the idea of
> making it a 'separate universe'. So New York was still going on in
> 2503.
>
>

>From: Haristas@...
>Subject: Re: Why 'they' are SEQUELS and NOT Prequels (anyway)
>I've just realized something... It's the birth of Baby Milo (Caesar) that
>changes the timeline!
>Let me ask everyone this... What if Hasslein had shot the the right baby
>chimp? What would have happened then?

> In a message dated 1/7/06 12:03:37 PM Eastern
> Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
>
> > Very true. But it does give some clues. The
> evidence of the human
> > civilization in the cave is from 2000 years
> earlier, not 1500 years
> > earlier. Therefore, according the what's presented
> in Planet the
> > nuclear war took place in the 20th Century not the
> 25th. Thus, using
> > the logic the Planet should not be dependent on
> it's sequels; the
> > history that C&Z related is completely
> invalidated. Since that is the
> > entire basis for the alternate timeline theory,
> the theory is
> > invalidated as well.
> >
>
> No, it isn't. All it means is that Dehn was sloppy.
> BENEATH makes it
> evident that the nuke war happened in the late
> twentieth century from what we see of
> the ruins. Why then would Dehn have Cornelius tell
> in ESCAPE that apes were
> slaves for hundreds of years? Because Cornelius is
> supposed to be lying?
> Seems to me that Cornelius completely believes what
> he's saying, and Zira too.
>
> No, I think that Dehn was just adapting the scenario
> that Boulle laid out in
> the original novel.
>
> I've just realized something... It's the birth of
> Baby Milo (Caesar) that
> changes the timeline!
>
> Let me ask everyone this... What if Hasslein had
> shot the the right baby
> chimp? What would have happened then?
>
> -- Rory
>

> > Consider this, in Timeline (or Apeline) 1 the nuclear war still

> > place in the 20th century. The human surviors build a rural

> > When the plague happens and they take apes as pets, because they

> > using primative interbreeding techniques it takes several

> > Apes to become slaves and then revolt.
> >
> > In Timeline 2, the nuclear war is initially averted. Thus, when

> > plague hits, man can use sophisticated genetic techniques which
> > accelerates the progression from pets to slaves so it happens in

> > years rather than taking centuries.
> >
>
> Sounds good to me.
>
> -- Rory
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:

> That's like asking what would have happened if Taylor, Landon & Dodge
had walked in a different direction from the lake. We have no way of
knowing until the writers tell us.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:

> Agreed. I don't buy them lying.
> If only from the, "Did they make you tell them about Taylor too?"
line.
> She said she told them everything, and she was glad. Is she lying
> about that as well? No way. This "Lying" stuff is wild speculation.
> And the kind I can't stand. The kind with nothing to back it up.
>

In a message dated 1/7/2006 6:41:47 P.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

Seems to me that Cornelius completely believes what he's saying, and Zira too.

 

Agreed.  I don't buy them lying.

If only from the, "Did they make you tell them about Taylor too?" line.

She said she told them everything, and she was glad.  Is she lying

about that as well?  No way.  This "Lying" stuff is wild speculation.

And the kind I can't stand.  The kind with nothing to back it up.

 

 

---

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--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
>
> There's something people don't understand about my belief that there are two
> timelines -- that it wouldn't all end with the events of BENEATH anyway.
>
> I believe there are two timelines because I don't believe you can go back in
> time (if you could, that is!) to become your own grandfather. There has to be
> an "original" timeline that brings you into being in the first place.

I believe it is the writer who defines what is possible or impossible in the fictional universe they create. Paul Dehn who wrote the sequels said in interviews that he was writing a circle. There's no ambiguity about it.

However, I am open to the notion that Battle is the fork in the road. If man and ape can continue to live in peace; the events of Beneath won't happen. If they cannot, the world is doomed.

>
> I think that the apes going back to 1973 creates an alternate timeline
> because they weren't there during the first line of events,

You don't know that's true. Nor is there any proof presented in the films that it is true. Cornelius didn't witness the events in the history he related. While he may have believed they were true, he's only as good as his source. The fact still remains that since neither he nor the audience were witness to these events they are hearsay. It is also true that the 500 year timeframe is in direct contradiction to what had been presented previously, specifically:

• The artifacts in the cave in Planet that place the human civilization 2000 years, not 1500, before.
• The ruins in Beneath which are obviously from the 20th Century as well as Taylor's line about the bomb being a gift from the 20th Century.
• Cornelius' own statement earlier in Escape that Apes had been speaking English for 2000 years.  

The discrepancy itself is not proof positive of an alternate timeline. While an alternate timeline is one possible explaination, it is not the only one.

>
>
> I hate the ending of BENEATH and wish I could undo it. I think the film
> series leaves the possibility open that it can be avoided. Caesar's statue weeps
> at the end of BATTLE,

Again Paul Dehn stated that the weeping statue was meant to be an indication that Caesar had failed. But I'll give you that it is ambiguous enough to be open to interpetation. However, if a new timeline was created it wasn't until Battle, not before.

> but then the Lawgiver doesn't seem to be the man-hater
> is read of in PLANET and BENEATH. So hence there's two possibilities for the
> future, TWO timelines!
>

Yes and maybe. We know little of the Lawgiver quoted in Planet & Beneath. And the Lawgiver in Battle does speak of 'evil men who betrayed god's trust'. As has happened with many religious texts, it is possible that the more conservative elements of Ape society focused on the more reactionary parts of his writings. Then again maybe Caesar was successful in changing lanes.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@y...> wrote:
>
> I think C&Z's coming
> back in time speed up the whole process......
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
>
> Just suppose... How long would it take for an Ape Revolt to happen if
there
> was no Caesar? 300 years maybe, or more?
>
> -- Rory
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, e s <e_r_s_1966@y...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever stopped to consider that no lying took place, but
also no actual truths were told. In this day and age we are not sure
of exactly what was in our own history....different sources say
different things...different translations, etc etc,,,not to mention
that when it comes to wars the victors have always written the history
book. It could be that whatever Zira told the authoritys and the
audience were not facts at all but only what Zira believed to be facts.
>
> Emily
>

That has exactly been my point. I've never believed that C&Z were lying
in that scene. They are relating what they believe to be the truth.

However, since they did not personally witness the events they related,
they are only as good as their source. And since the audience did not
witness those events either, there is no proof they happened exactly as
C&Z had related them.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, e s <e_r_s_1966@y...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever stopped to consider that no lying took place, but
also no actual truths were told.  In this day and age we are not sure
of exactly what was in our own history....different sources say
different things...different translations, etc etc,,,not to mention
that when it comes to wars the victors have always written the history
book.  It could be that whatever Zira told the authoritys and the
audience were not facts at all but only what Zira believed to be facts.
>   
>   Emily
>

---

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--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, stenosaurus@a... wrote:
>
> The nuclear war between man and apes (or man and
> man as well? Too bad they never go into detail about that)

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:
>
> As with any history, you weren't there.
> So you can only repeat what you've read.
>