I would agree that most of the APPEAL was to kids though…..

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Sunday, 1 January 2006 12:53 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Revolution on the Planet of the Apes (Issue 1)

In a message dated 12/31/2005 3:49:53 PM Central Standard Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

These stories were written for kids.

Not entirely true... BATTLE was defininately aimed at kids, but PLANET surely wasn't, and I can't say that BENEATH was entirely either... At worst you could say that they were aimed at the "family audience" in which there were things for all members to enjoy... But kid's films, no...

Agreed, again.

But from Beneath on the kid appeal is THERE!  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Sunday, 1 January 2006 1:36 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Ape - EAL

In a message dated 12/31/2005 7:56:45 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

I would agree that most of the APPEAL was to kids though…..

Only the later films...

PLANET was never intended as a "kid's film"... Just by watching it, that much is obvious...

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

And….is that a banana in your trousers or are you just loathing and detesting me?!?!?!?

Zira

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 4:12 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Tunnels and Ape Chow

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Mithril1960@a... wrote:
>
> 
> 
> In a message dated 12/30/2005 16:46:14 Eastern Standard Time, 
> PotaDG@yahoogroups.com writes:
>
> Well, that makes no sense.  Are we to accept that the mutants in
BATTLE are supposed to be living in the ruins of San Diego ?!!  And
that they somehow got the Alpha/Omega bomb to the ruins of New York
by the 40th century? How did they transport it, in that vehicle from
DAMNATION  ALLEY, or are there supposed to be tunnels crisscrossing
the country as in  Roddenberry's "Genesis II"?
>
> Look, just keep it simple.  CONQUEST and BATTLE take place
somewhere on the East coast.
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Well, there are several answers;
> 
> 1 - Yes there are tunnels, at least according to Marvel's nicely
done Timeline (available at the site or at other sites).
> 
> 2 - We never really know where the later apes films take place,
other than Escape and isn't that Los Angeles ? So how they switched to
San Diego is a mystery. Still the story in Revolution is done
decently unlike other Apes revivals.
> 
> 3 - There is always the option that the Ape City from Planet wasn't
founded by Ceasar, but is another founded by other apes brought about
by the Ape Revolution. But then how would the uncut Battle fit in,
since they had the Doomsday bomb?
> 
> 4 - Just go with the suggestion above - it's the east coast. (ha!)

____________________________________________________________________

*** Here's some more grist for the mill.

THE TUNNELS - In "BENEATH" Brent and Nova walk through subway tunnels
built in the 20th Century from Queensboro Plaza... but that route
ends where they find the circular, cylindrical tunnel in that
underground cavern, with the metal rungs leading up to it.

Who made that tunnel, and when did they make it?

The MUTANTS made that tunnel, and they made it AFTER the Nuclear War
had wrecked the world. That tunnel extends from that cavern -- where
the air from the outside world is being sucked into the subterranean
city -- to the foot of the steps on the east side of the NEW YORK
PUBLIC LIBRARY. We see Brent and Nova leave that cylindrical tunnel
on street-level: that tunnel HAD to have been delved after the street
level in New York had partially filled in with rock and/or
solidifying magma.

Who's to say that the Mutants in "BATTLE " didn't eventually make use
of Tunneling Machines, then? They HAD to have made use of them while
in New York City 's ruins -- we can SEE the results of their work. The
next big question is: Might they not have TUNNELED their way to New
York City from some other region? Even one as far away as California ?

Why not?

I would suppose that there were at least SOME pre-existing tunnels,
delved by the Army Corps of Engineers, to connect various Defense
Department bases throughout the continental U.S.A. I have little
doubt that such tunnels currently exist.

If the Mutants -- who somehow acquired the ALPHA OMEGA bomb -- also
acquired detailed maps of the United States' D.O.D. tunnel system,
and if they had access to tunneling machines, then they COULD have
made use of such D.O.D. tunnels to get most of the way from a
California "Breck City" to New York City, perhaps using some
tunneling machines of their own (or, ones left around by the Army
Corps of Engineers after their tunnels had been dug) to dig their way
through un-tunneled areas.

The book "OATH OF FEALTY" co-written by Larry Niven and "ESCAPE"
novelizer Jerry Pournelle owes part of its plot to the use of these
tunneling machines. A scene in "TOTAL RECALL" involves the use of a
tunneling machine on Mars. These devices are not "science fiction" --
they are science FACT. They're being used as we speak. They were used
to dig the tunnel across the English Channel -- the "Chunnel". If
follows that such devices would be available for the use of a pre-
Nuke War U.S. military to connect their bases through solid bedrock,
unobserved from orbiting enemy spy satellites... and those same
tunneling machines would be available for Mendez (or one of his
successors) to lead his people on a transcontinental trek, through
some previously delved military tunnels and -- perhaps -- through
tunnels they themselves dig while en route to their final destination
in New York City, where they use those machines to dig the
ventilation shafts through which Brent and Nova (and, later, Ursus'
army) walk.

------------

One other thing (unrelated to the tunnels, but as concerns the East
Coast vs West Coast location of "CONQUEST" and "BATTLE ".

In the scene where MacDonald tells Caesar about the tapes, there is a
basket of what appears to be either ORANGES or GRAPEFRUIT. Later,
when Kolp's scouts return to tell him about what they found, the
scout Captain tells him: "This [pointing at his map] is a gorilla
outpost. Below is a valley, with orchards and vineyards, enough to
feed hundreds. Here is Ape City ."

In the final screenplay this last line reads:

CAPTAIN (indicating) "This is a gorilla outpost. Below is this
valley, planted with orchards and vineyards, an orange grove and
young banana palms.* [(* We need not have seen all these.)] Enough to
feed thousands." (tapping map) "Their city is here."

In David Gerrold's novelization it reads:

The captain laid the map on a table. He began pointing. "There's a
gorilla outpost here. Below that is a valley; it's planted with
orchards and vineyards. There are orange groves and banana palms
here. Enough to feed thousands." He tapped the map, "Their city is
here."

Gerrold followed the screenplay faithfully, for the most part,
including those non-filmed references to one or more ORANGE GROVES
and BANANA PALMS.

If it didn't make it into any filmed version (by which I include the
foreign versions, like the Japanese Laserdisc version), then it's not
strictly canon, as far as I'm concerned. But it IS interesting that
in the final screenplay there were originally references to ORANGE
GROVES and to BANANA PALMS -- both of which fit in geographically to
the CALIFORNIA region, but NOT to the NEW YORK / NEW JERSEY region.
California is famous for its orange groves, and bananas are a
TROPICAL fruit.

I can already hear the arguments: Zira's first words to the humans
testing them at the L.A. ZOO are "Because I loathe bananas!" That
means that she -- who had lived in the New York / New Jersey vicinity
in the 3900s -- had to have known what bananas tasted like.

I would argue that bananas -- being imported to the NYC / NJ area,
having been grown further south -- had to have been INTRODUCED to the
NYC / NJ region, so that they BECOME indigenous to that area later
on. One scenario that would fit this would be if Apes living in the
California region were to make a trek across the continent of North
America, eastward, they would bring with them foodstuffs -- and
especially the SEEDS of those dietary staples -- on their journey
from the California region to wherever they might go. We know that
the Ape civilization circa 3085 dwells in the California region, and
it's fairly obvious that Chief Councillor Zaius is related in some
way -- most probably familially -- to Dr. Zaius, who lived some 870
years later, on the other side of the continent. If a trans-American
trek of at least a fairly sizeable portion of the Apes from Galen's
time DID happen, it would have involved the House of Zaius traveling
with them, at the very least.

I can see such a migration happening, perhaps in the 32nd Century or
so. Perhaps to join up with the descendants of others who had
ventured eastward hundreds of years earlier. Those migrating Apes
would have brought along the seeds of their edible plants --
including ORANGES and BANANAS -- transplanting them from their
California climes to the Northeastern USA territory.

Granted, that line about "orange groves" and "banana palms" didn't
make it into the final version(s) of "BATTLE ", but there IS a basket
of citrus-type fruit on a table in Caesar and Lisa's home when
MacDonald tells him about the Tapes. At the very least, the inclusion
of the references to "orange groves" and "banana palms" in the final
screenplay hints that Dehn was placing the events of "CONQUEST"
and "BATTLE " somewhere where those fruits are cultivated. There ARE
some East Coast places where that could be applicable, such as
Florida and Georgia, but as far north as New Jersey and New York is
unlikely.

Patrick

P.S. Happy New Year. Only 1,949 more to go until Doomsday. And this
year, 2006, is the year my POTA chronology has for the Nuclear War,
based on Mandemus' line hinting that "BATTLE" takes place 27 years
after "CONQUEST" (i.e. in 2018) and Mendez' line that Kolp's actions
against Caesar will break 12 years of peace. Twelve years before 2018
is 2006 -- this year. And how many battles would the human survivors
of Breck's/Kolp's city have had to deal with after the Nuclear War?
So, I've dated "BATTLE " at 2018 and the 12-years-before incident
Mendez alludes to will be the Nuke War (in my scenario). Given the
sabre-rattling of the Iranian President regarding "wiping Israel off
the map" and their Nuke program, it wouldn't surprise me all that
much if a WMD were to be detonated somewhere in the Middle East.
Whether that WMD is an Iranian nuke hitting Tel Aviv or an Israeli
nuke doing a pre-emptive strike on Tehran ... that's anybody's guess.

Happy Nuke Year!

Do you think “resent” might be a more accurate word than “despise” Rory?

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 2:12 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Ape - EAL

In a message dated 12/31/05 8:56:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

I would agree that most of the APPEAL was to kids though…..



Michael

What's certainly true is that as the years passed in the early seventies APES came to appeal mostly to kids.  Which is one of the reason's I, as I was growing older, came to dislike APES as it moved along.  I wanted the level of PLANET with each film and instead I got BATTLE, then the TV show, then -- horror of horrors -- a cartoon series.  Then it was just comics.  Then it was over.

Is it any wonder why I came to worship the original and despise the sequels?

-- Rory

Yes – VERY soothing stuff (if you want your baby to have nightmares about falling from a tree!).

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of veetus@...
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 8:10 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Ape - EAL

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 3:37 AM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Ape - EAL

 

In a message dated 12/31/2005 7:56:38 P.M. Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

These stories were written for kids.

 

Of course . . .

 

Once upon a time . . .

there was a planet ruled by Apes

And Men were enslaved.  And they

cut out your brain and cut off your

balls.  Then it blew up.  The End.

Pleasant dreams.

Looks like somebody’s off the Christmas list Patrick!  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of veetus@...
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 8:13 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] The Circle

  Blah! Blah! Blah! You'll never convince me. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 9:55 AM
Subject: [PotaDG] The Circle


> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> >
> > 
> > In a message dated 12/30/2005 8:07:26 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
> > veetus@e... writes:
> >
> > I  understand that Arthur Jacobs wanted the end of "Battle" to be
> left open to interpretation. Will Caesar change the future (a new
> timeline) or is the future set (circular, fate)?
> >
> >
> > 
> > That's the thing. The timeline has been changed but is it enough?
> > Who knows? That was the last line. It reminds me of the time
> > travel episodes of The Simpsons & Red Dwarf. Some times the
> > smallest thing can just make it worse, and then it takes a lot to
> > fix it. On the other had, how does it get worse than World
> > destruction. I guess, at least from Taylor's point of view
> > anyway, a World run by apes is worse than that.
> >
> *** The timeline didn't change. Cornelius told the Presidential
> Commission that English had been the language of his ancestors
> for "nearly two thousand years". He time-traveled back from the year
> 3955, and "nearly 2,000 years" before that Doomsday date puts Apes-
> Speaking-English smack dab in the late 20th Century.
>
> When Cornelius LATER tells Hasslein that the first ape to speak was
> named "Aldo" and that this event supposedly happened 3 centuries after
> the Apes were enslaved (the slavery beginning about 2 centuries after
> the Plague), he is LYING. Just as Zira lies her ass off when she says
> that the word she hadn't finished saying in her testimony to the
> Commission [... "dissec-" ... "dissec-" ... "dissec-" ...] was just her
> having the hiccups. It suits these talking monkeys to lie when they
> feel the need to do so.
>
> They have an overwhelming compulsion to lie about this so-called 500-
> year period: they don't want Hasslein to think that in just 18 years
> the Ape Revolt is gonna precipitate the Nuke War that'll wipe out Man's
> civilization. They don't want him to know that the leader of that
> revolt will NOT be an ape named "Aldo" living some 500 years in the
> Future, but will instead be an ape named "Caesar" who is currently
> gestating in Zira's womb. In order to protect their unborn son, they
> lie about the half-a-millennium that Man supposedly has left to lord it
> over their soon-to-be enslaved Ape lessers. And Cornelius names "Aldo"
> as the Ape to be watched out for because he doesn't want his own
> grandson to be murdered by him. Cornelius wants to change that one
> thing about the Future -- the fate of his eponymous grandson -- but he
> doesn't want the prevent the Fall of Man and the Rise of the Apes,
> a "historical" event that he now WANTS to happen, since his own family
> will be the RULING family of that original Ape society.
>
> Cornelius could only hope that Hasslein had forgotten all about
> that "nearly 2,000 years" line earlier. How can the 1st talking ape
> show up 500 years into the Future -- which is only 1,500 years or so
> before the 3955 year of Doomsday -- if English had been handed down
> from father-to-son for "nearly 2,000 years"?
>
> Cornelius knew damned well that talking apes would "turn the tables" on
> Man in the next generation -- NOT as far away as 500 years later. But
> he and Zira wanted Hasslein to falsely believe they had that much time
> left.
>
> "How much time has the world got?!" Hasslein later rants. If he only
> remembered Cornelius' testimony to the Commission and subtracted
> that "nearly 2,000 years" period from the EARTH-TIME "date meter"
> record of "3955" ("A.D., presumably"), then he would have a pretty good
> idea of how much time the world had left before Apes took over the
> reins of civilization from Man.
>
> NOT NEARLY ENOUGH!
>
> The timeline did NOT change. Cornelius lied about it, just as Zira lied
> about her 'hiccups'. Just as he had lied earlier, when he claimed he
> hadn't known Colonel Taylor. He's not above lying when he has a
> compelling reason to do so. Those who insist on a "changed" timeline
> believe Cornelius would NEVER EVER EVER tell a lie, like he's George
> Freakin' Washington twiddlin' his thumbs by the chopped-down cherry
> tree, and they're just plain wrong. The facts -- the details --
> of "ESCAPE" prove otherwise.
>
> And Dehn himself never was into this changing-of-timelines notion,
> either. He has Hasslein CLAIMING that it's possible -- even if ever
> more improbable, if action isn't taken -- to change the Future, to
> change lanes on that Freeway of Time. But Dehn ended "ESCAPE" knowing
> that there would undoubtedly be a 4th Apes film, and he purposely
> arranged it so that the son of Cornelius and Zira would be the
> protagonist of that story -- a story which would see the fulfilment of
> the major details of the Future History that Cornelius laid out for
> Hasslein (the Plague... Apes as Pets... Apes as Slaves... the Apes
> turning the tables... an ape named "Aldo"...), but NOT in the 500-year
> period Cornelius and Zira had lied about. Rather, Apes become enslaved
> and wage their Revolt LESS THAN A DECADE after the Plague wipes out the
> dogs and cats. That alone proves that Cornelius was either knowingly
> LYING about the Future's timeline or he was unwittingly MISTAKEN about
> it (as Ty implies). I think the irreconcilable discrepancy between
> Cornelius' TWO timelines given in "ESCAPE" prove that he had to have
> known that ONE of those two was bogus. The unfolding of the story
> of "CONQUEST" proves that it was the later timeframe (500-years) that
> was the bogus one.
>
> The existence of other talking apes -- apes unrelated to the Ape-
> onauts -- proves that there were talking apes on Earth even as
> Cornelius and Zira were publicly believed to be the only ones able to
> do so. Mandemus was OLDER than Caesar; he had to have been conceived
> YEARS before the Ape-onauts landed off the coast of California.
> Hasslein was worried about the possibility of Cornelius and Zira and
> their unborn child interbreeding with primitive apes and producing the
> race of intelligent apes that would one day flourish (and wage a war
> culminating in Doomsday by 3955). But he was short-sighted. Cornelius
> and Zira referred to the gorillas and orangutans in their testimony to
> the Commission. Zira referred to gorillas during her sodium pentothal-
> induced testimony at Camp Eleven. Did Hasslein think that Cornelius and
> Zira (and their unborn child) would go gallivanting around,
> impregnating (or being impregnated by) gorillas and orangutans, as well
> as chimpanzees? How does Hasslein account for the existence of talking
> gorillas and orangutans in the Future? He DOESN'T. He fixates on these
> talking chimpanzees, and foolishly hopes that by killing THEM he'll be
> preventing ALL apes from ever superceding Mankind as King of the Heap.
> Hasslein, in his own way, was a short-sighted fool.
>
> Dehn was making a SINGLE circular timeline -- the final screenplay
> of "BATTLE" includes his final touches, the Corringtons
> notwithstanding. Dehn knew that Cornelius and Zira were lying about
> that 500-year period; he himself wrote Cornelius' earlier line, "nearly
> 2,000 years". His intention was to make it a vicious circle, with only
> the "hope" that the circle could be broken. Definitely not the
> CERTAINTY that it either COULD or WAS broken.
>
> Patrick

I have a model of the POTA ship (quite rare – the first one ever sold) named ICARUS.

I know there is a web site dedicated to the ship that uses the name ICARUS.

Where does this name come from?!?!?!

Michael

Oh who cares – tell me anyway!

Is it a group of guys getting in a circle and wanking?

We have a version of this party trick in Australia that involves SAO biscuits!  These are like water crackers… sorta….

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ron kenner
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 12:23 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: The Circle

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
> I just thought of another one...
> Patrick's just a circle jerk!!!   Ha! Ha! Ha!

-- Gee that's nice. I too believe it is a circular timeline, always
have. I don't consider myself a jerk though.

For someone who has publicly admitted they don't very much like
the 'sequels' and prefers Planet as a stand alone movie I really don't
see why you would bother one way or the other with what sort of
timeline is involved, it shouldn't really matter should it?

Neil.

Bring it on Uncle Manny!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 1:25 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] New file uploaded to PotaDG

No shit?

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 1:56 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: New file uploaded to PotaDG

Neil!!! I'm shocked ...and very proud of you, er. uh. Uncle Manny.



--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, PotaDG@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the PotaDG
> group.
>
>   File        : /Uncle Manny's Musings/UMM 18.jpg
>   Uploaded by : munkeyman63au <nfoster@h...>
>   Description : Scroll 18
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Uncle%20Manny%27s%
20Musings/UMM%2018.jpg
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> munkeyman63au <nfoster@h...>

Communism is really very similar to Christianity you know…..

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 3:46 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: King Kong 2005 (OT)

Nah – I was thinking ideology.

You know – share the wealth, everyone gets something…..

It is flawed, as is capitalism.

I wonder if you could have voluntary Communism – that might be nice – or is that called being a hippy?

Or maybe anarchy?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Monday, 2 January 2006 4:50 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Communism (OT)

And go visit those poor homeless bastards on the street.

I bet if they weren’t brainwashed about “the C word” they would think communism is just fine!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Tuesday, 3 January 2006 2:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Communism (OT)

In a message dated 1/2/06 4:33:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

And capitalism is flawed, how exactly?

Take a look at our consumer-driven economy, T.  The message: Be happy and consume.  Consume, consume.

If everyone stopped consuming, our economy would collapse, you right-winger, T!

-- Rory

Well, y’know, if it gets outta line, then you gotta do……this is getting very silly!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ron kenner
Sent: Tuesday, 3 January 2006 3:39 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: The Circle

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