.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 6:11:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mez Downes" <mdownes@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 3:29 PM
Subject: [pota] Re: Roddy's POTA Project


> Please please please, Jeff!!
>
> And did Roddy ever share particulars about what direction the series
> might have taken? I always got the feeling from his interviews that
> there were some firm ideas about it -- before it was ripped off the
> airwaves. /Mez

Well,I know there must be something wrong with Yahoo! again,because I didn't
get this message from Mez when it first came out.I am just now reading it as
part of a reply to it from Williejoe.Are the rest of you not getting all the
messages either?I know that I sent a few others that never showed up (at
least not to me).

<.html

I think now those helicopters were a sly comment on "King Kong". "Escape"
was before the "King Kong" remake when they actually used helicopters but
Arthur Jacobs was a "King Kong" fan and I can see it in that scene. I mean,
they could have set it in an ice skating rink where you can't see the
helicopters. - - - - Jeff K.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mez Downes" <mdownes@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 3:39 PM
Subject: [pota] Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?


> > I was also 12 when I first saw 'Escape' on TV ( sometime in '75).
> > Cry? I was traumatized by the ending. I just couldn't believe that
> > they kill off my two favourite characters. You're right Jeff,
> > they'd never get that ending past the test audiences these days.
> > Best,
> > KEN
>
> I was around 11 when I saw Escape, and for a short time afterwards I
> was mighty untrusting of helicopters! LOL -- Ah, the good ol'
> days before Hollywood became Hollyweird. /Mez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 4:06 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE novel -- was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?

In a message dated 5/27/01 5:17:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
mdownes@... writes:

Okay. But would you still have thought they were human-sized if you'd
read the novelization *prior* to any exposure to the films? That's my
point.
Well,that really is hard to say for sure.I'd like to think that yes,I would
have envisioned them as just looking like run of the mill chimps.But as you
say,I did see the films before I ever read any of the novels,so it is hard
to really say.
You'll have to forgive me -- I'm not slamming Pournelle or trying to
be anal. Judging from the original copyright date and dialogue it's
likely he was working from a semi-final draft of the script and may
even have been instructed not to bother describing the chimps.
('Leave the shock value for the release of the film' kind of thing.)
It's just the writer in me. Where books are concerned I look for
weakness or flaw as a pasttime. ;)
I don't think you're being anal,its ok to be critical of others works.But
from the very little I know of Pournelle (and it is almost nothing),I think
he is very into what is and isn't.I mean I heard once that he said "Star
Wars" isn't sci-fi (I agree with  that even if it wasn't Pournelle who said
it,but thats beside the point).What I'm trying to get at here is
this:Because he takes his works seriously,and he seems hardcore as to what
sci-fi is,then he wouldn't change the apes appearances.I mean he would take
what exists already and then just change it up to a point.The point in Apes
being,ok apes have aquired speech and intelligence.But their appearances
don't have to change because of it.He seems to be a "what if" type of
writer.But I haven't read any other books by him so I could be wrong.
> I suppose they could end up being larger though because of the
> genetic breeding ,etc..But I always thought of them as just looking
> like regular apes (in the novelization that is),because if they
> looked like they did in the films,then everyone would KNOW they
> aren't just chimps,that they are evolved creatures and I'm sure
> they wouldn't have been put in with the regular "well trained"chimp
> catagory.

Well, that happened in both the film and the novelization. Which
always struck me as funny in the film because they *are* so different
looking to contemporary chimps. I would hope that if three human-
sized, upright-walking chimps in spacesuits washed up on our shores
this minute, our initial reaction would not be to throw them in a zoo!
Yes,I know that too.Thats my point .I'm saying that because of their very
different appearance,it'd be obvious that they aren't run of the mill
chimps.I'm trying to say that when I read the novel its easier to picture
their initial treatment because I do try to picture them as regular looking
chimps,not the evolved ones that they are.Thats where the film's lower
budget comes into being criticized.I mean that if we are to believe that
the 3 Ape-o-nauts were "real" apes,then shouldn't have the other apes had
the same look as them,for more realism?Then by the time of Conquest they
all have that look and at this point in the game they couldn't have evolved
that much,so they'd have to be from the same genetic makeup as the dumb
ones in Escape.Their intelligence may have been on the rise in Conquest but
their look couldn't have changed that much "over night".I know I rambled on
too much here,but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.
So are you saying that, in terms of the book, you envisioned
Cornelius and Zira as being no different looking than chimps are
today? Except they could talk? /Mez

Yes,this is what I'm trying to say in terms of reading the novelization.I do
try to picture them as what I know chimps to look like.It makes it more
believable to me.I hope all my nonsense makes sense to you and that you can
see the point I'm trying to make here.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

In a message dated 05/27/2001 7:15:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

<< Really, how many science fiction films make
you cry?

- - - - -
Jeff K. >>

Oh, when I was a kid I also cried at the ending of "Silent Running."
Remember that one? I also cried at "Battlefield Earth," but that was
because I knew I'd wasted $4 renting it.

-- Rory

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 4:06 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE novel -- was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?

In a message dated 5/27/01 5:17:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
mdownes@... writes:

Okay. But would you still have thought they were human-sized if you'd
read the novelization *prior* to any exposure to the films? That's my
point.
Well,that really is hard to say for sure.I'd like to think that yes,I would
have envisioned them as just looking like run of the mill chimps.But as you
say,I did see the films before I ever read any of the novels,so it is hard
to really say.
You'll have to forgive me -- I'm not slamming Pournelle or trying to
be anal. Judging from the original copyright date and dialogue it's
likely he was working from a semi-final draft of the script and may
even have been instructed not to bother describing the chimps.
('Leave the shock value for the release of the film' kind of thing.)
It's just the writer in me. Where books are concerned I look for
weakness or flaw as a pasttime. ;)
I don't think you're being anal,its ok to be critical of others works.But
from the very little I know of Pournelle (and it is almost nothing),I think
he is very into what is and isn't.I mean I heard once that he said "Star
Wars" isn't sci-fi (I agree with  that even if it wasn't Pournelle who said
it,but thats beside the point).What I'm trying to get at here is
this:Because he takes his works seriously,and he seems hardcore as to what
sci-fi is,then he wouldn't change the apes appearances.I mean he would take
what exists already and then just change it up to a point.The point in Apes
being,ok apes have aquired speech and intelligence.But their appearances
don't have to change because of it.He seems to be a "what if" type of
writer.But I haven't read any other books by him so I could be wrong.
> I suppose they could end up being larger though because of the
> genetic breeding ,etc..But I always thought of them as just looking
> like regular apes (in the novelization that is),because if they
> looked like they did in the films,then everyone would KNOW they
> aren't just chimps,that they are evolved creatures and I'm sure
> they wouldn't have been put in with the regular "well trained"chimp
> catagory.

Well, that happened in both the film and the novelization. Which
always struck me as funny in the film because they *are* so different
looking to contemporary chimps. I would hope that if three human-
sized, upright-walking chimps in spacesuits washed up on our shores
this minute, our initial reaction would not be to throw them in a zoo!
Yes,I know that too.Thats my point .I'm saying that because of their very
different appearance,it'd be obvious that they aren't run of the mill
chimps.I'm trying to say that when I read the novel its easier to picture
their initial treatment because I do try to picture them as regular looking
chimps,not the evolved ones that they are.Thats where the film's lower
budget comes into being criticized.I mean that if we are to believe that
the 3 Ape-o-nauts were "real" apes,then shouldn't have the other apes had
the same look as them,for more realism?Then by the time of Conquest they
all have that look and at this point in the game they couldn't have evolved
that much,so they'd have to be from the same genetic makeup as the dumb
ones in Escape.Their intelligence may have been on the rise in Conquest but
their look couldn't have changed that much "over night".I know I rambled on
too much here,but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.
So are you saying that, in terms of the book, you envisioned
Cornelius and Zira as being no different looking than chimps are
today? Except they could talk? /Mez

Yes,this is what I'm trying to say in terms of reading the novelization.I do
try to picture them as what I know chimps to look like.It makes it more
believable to me.I hope all my nonsense makes sense to you and that you can
see the point I'm trying to make here.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Okay, well no body wants to try answering my trivia question, so I'll just do
it myself.

Which ape character in the POTA series has the most outfits?

I would say Dr. Zaius. In PLANET he's first seen in his long-jacket outfit,
then in his office with the jacket off and just in his brown tunic (I would
count that as another outfit), then at the end of the film in his 'man hunt'
or expeditionary outfit. THEN in "Beneath" he's in the expeditionary outfit
again, only this time it has added "glyphs."

I count that as four different Dr. Zaius "looks." More than any other
character.

Okay, opinions anyone. Hey, I'm trying to keep the discussion going here.
Cut me some slack.

-- Rory

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 4:17 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Re: Roddy's POTA Project

In a message dated 5/27/01 6:11:56 PM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mez Downes" <mdownes@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 3:29 PM
Subject: [pota] Re: Roddy's POTA Project


> Please please please, Jeff!!
>
> And did Roddy ever share particulars about what direction the series
> might have taken? I always got the feeling from his interviews that
> there were some firm ideas about it -- before it was ripped off the
> airwaves. /Mez

Well,I know there must be something wrong with Yahoo! again,because I didn't
get this message from Mez when it first came out.I am just now reading it as
part of a reply to it from Williejoe.Are the rest of you not getting all the
messages either?I know that I sent a few others that never showed up (at
least not to me).


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Haven't seen "Silent Running". All I know about it that some accuse George
Lucas of stealing R2D2 from it. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <Haristas@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?


> In a message dated 05/27/2001 7:15:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> williejoe@... writes:
>
> << Really, how many science fiction films make
> you cry?
>
> - - - - -
> Jeff K. >>
>
> Oh, when I was a kid I also cried at the ending of "Silent Running."
> Remember that one? I also cried at "Battlefield Earth," but that was
> because I knew I'd wasted $4 renting it.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html Hey You forgot his "birthday suit" from the steamroom in BENEATH!  So that's 5!!!

But don't Cornelius or Zira have more in Escape?   "Ape-o-Nauts", regulars, human clothes, shopping sprees, etc.?

Haristas@... wrote:

Okay, well no body wants to try answering my trivia question, so I'll just do
it myself.

Which ape character in the POTA series has the most outfits?

I would say Dr. Zaius.  In PLANET he's first seen in his long-jacket outfit,
then in his office with the jacket off and just in his brown tunic (I would
count that as another outfit), then at the end of the film in his 'man hunt'
or expeditionary outfit.  THEN in "Beneath" he's in the expeditionary outfit
again, only this time it has added "glyphs."

I count that as four different Dr. Zaius "looks."  More than any other
character.

Okay, opinions anyone.  Hey, I'm trying to keep the discussion going here.
Cut me some slack.

-- Rory
 
 

<.html

In a message dated 05/27/2001 7:47:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

<< Haven't seen "Silent Running". All I know about it that some accuse George
Lucas of stealing R2D2 from it. - - - Jeff >>

Oh, it's a good movie. You should rent it. Probably the best movie Bruce
Dern ever starred in.

-- Rory

I think the discussion is going pretty well. Yes, you stumped me. I
couldn't think of any "Apes" costume changes except the "Escape" shopping
trip. What I think is cool is Caesar's outfit at the beginning of
"Conquest". All leather but it has the chimp insignia on it. Where's that
at, Brian? - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <Haristas@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 4:40 PM
Subject: [pota] POTA trivia question


> Okay, well no body wants to try answering my trivia question, so I'll just
do
> it myself.
>
> Which ape character in the POTA series has the most outfits?
>
> I would say Dr. Zaius. In PLANET he's first seen in his long-jacket
outfit,
> then in his office with the jacket off and just in his brown tunic (I
would
> count that as another outfit), then at the end of the film in his 'man
hunt'
> or expeditionary outfit. THEN in "Beneath" he's in the expeditionary
outfit
> again, only this time it has added "glyphs."
>
> I count that as four different Dr. Zaius "looks." More than any other
> character.
>
> Okay, opinions anyone. Hey, I'm trying to keep the discussion going here.
> Cut me some slack.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bruce Dern? Did you ever see the "Outer Limits" episode "The Zanti
Misfits"? Absolutely nothing in my childhood gave me more nightmares than
that (which I guess means it was a good
- - - - Jeff K.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Haristas@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?


> In a message dated 05/27/2001 7:47:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> williejoe@... writes:
>
> << Haven't seen "Silent Running". All I know about it that some accuse
George
> Lucas of stealing R2D2 from it. - - - Jeff >>
>
> Oh, it's a good movie. You should rent it. Probably the best movie Bruce
> Dern ever starred in.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>

Rory wrote:

> The apes didn't smoke tobacco, they smoked 'weed.' Couldn't you see it
> growing on the hills all around Ape City? Why else do you think they
> freaked out at talking men?!

LOL! Now that would have made a great 6th movie: "Stoned on The Planet of The
Apes"

Chad

In a message dated 05/27/2001 7:53:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
afryt4u@... writes:

<< Hey You forgot his "birthday suit" from the steamroom in BENEATH! So
that's
5!!!

But don't Cornelius or Zira have more in Escape? "Ape-o-Nauts", regulars,
human clothes, shopping sprees, etc.? >>


Well, I didn't forget it, I just didn't think of it as an outfit, but I guess
it is a "look."

In ESCAPE, I would say Zira and Cornelius had the spacesuits, they're clothes
from PLANET and BENEATH, then they each bought just one outfit at the store.
BUT, Cornelius was in that bathrobe, so I guess he's up to four. If you
count Zaius in his birthday suit, then he's still the leader.

In CONQUEST Caesar has his leather outfit in the beginning, then he's in his
birthday suit, then the green slave overall, then in BATTLE his old man's
clothes.

So, counting birthday suits, ZAIUS RULES!!! But then we all knew that.

-- Rory

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:

> > What I'm trying to get at here is this:Because he takes his works
> > seriously,and he seems hardcore as to what sci-fi is,then he
> > wouldn't change the apes appearances.I mean he would take
> > what exists already and then just change it up to a point.The
> > point in Apes being,ok apes have aquired speech and
> > intelligence.But their appearances don't have to change because
> > of it.He seems to be a "what if" type of writer.But I haven't
> > read any other books by him so I could be wrong.

Hm. I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure what kind of sci-fi
writer Pournelle would be if he expected sci-fi fans to believe apes
could evolve speech without evolving otherwise physically. I mean,
the two go hand-in-hand. If we still lived in forests and didn't have
to worry about much other than finding our next meal, we wouldn't
have the complex language abilities we do today. Likewise, Zira would
never be able to dissec -- examine humans as she did if her motor
skills weren't evolved beyond that of a contemporary chimpanzee.
Today's chimps are dexterious to be sure, but in ways that have not
been tried by hundreds of thousands of years of tool usage.

> > I'm trying to say that when I read the novel its easier to
> > picture their initial treatment because I do try to picture them
> > as regular looking chimps,not the evolved ones that they
> > are.Thats where the film's lower budget comes into being
> > criticized.I mean that if we are to believe that the 3
> > Ape-o-nauts were "real" apes,then shouldn't have the other apes
> > had the same look as them,for more realism?

You mean the gorilla in the cage next to them? Well, he wasn't
evolved. But as you say, their budget was >tight< -- plus I wouldn't
want to have played Milo if a real mountain gorilla had to pretend to
choke me.

> > Then by the time of Conquest they all have that look and at this
> > point in the game they couldn't have evolved that much,so they'd
> > have to be from the same genetic makeup as the dumb ones in
> > Escape.Their intelligence may have been on the rise in Conquest
> > but their look couldn't have changed that much "over night".

Oh, well HERE we're getting into plot inconsistencies that I don't
think anyone -- not even the writers at the time -- thought important
enough to address, and no one can answer them satisfactorily to this
day! But personally I put the evolution from the Escape gorilla to
the Conquest apes down to a kind of hyper-genetic mutation, origin
unknown. Neither their intelligence nor their anatomy could not have
changed that much in such a short span without *some* kind of
unnatural catalyst.

> > I know I rambled on too much here,but I hope you get what I'm
> > trying to say.

Not at all, thanks for replying! I get you completely, and now
understand where you're coming from. Please don't take my input here
as any sort of attack 'cause that isn't my intent at all. I really
enjoy this sort of dialogue...You can always tell because I won't
quit yammering. ;) /Mez

I don't know if you guys got my previous e-mail on this but I'd say the
"primitive apes" in both "Escape" and "Conquest" don't look much like the
apes we know ( Bill Blake told me Jacobs hired a brother team who were well
known for playing apes but who demanded they use their own costumes) so if
we accept it as an alternate timeline they may have developed longer and
also given a reason the apes can talk as early as
"Battle". - - - - Jeff K.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mez Downes" <mdownes@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 5:09 PM
Subject: [pota] ESCAPE novel -- was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?


> --- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:
> > > What I'm trying to get at here is this:Because he takes his works
> > > seriously,and he seems hardcore as to what sci-fi is,then he
> > > wouldn't change the apes appearances.I mean he would take
> > > what exists already and then just change it up to a point.The
> > > point in Apes being,ok apes have aquired speech and
> > > intelligence.But their appearances don't have to change because
> > > of it.He seems to be a "what if" type of writer.But I haven't
> > > read any other books by him so I could be wrong.
>
> Hm. I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure what kind of sci-fi
> writer Pournelle would be if he expected sci-fi fans to believe apes
> could evolve speech without evolving otherwise physically. I mean,
> the two go hand-in-hand. If we still lived in forests and didn't have
> to worry about much other than finding our next meal, we wouldn't
> have the complex language abilities we do today. Likewise, Zira would
> never be able to dissec -- examine humans as she did if her motor
> skills weren't evolved beyond that of a contemporary chimpanzee.
> Today's chimps are dexterious to be sure, but in ways that have not
> been tried by hundreds of thousands of years of tool usage.
>
> > > I'm trying to say that when I read the novel its easier to
> > > picture their initial treatment because I do try to picture them
> > > as regular looking chimps,not the evolved ones that they
> > > are.Thats where the film's lower budget comes into being
> > > criticized.I mean that if we are to believe that the 3
> > > Ape-o-nauts were "real" apes,then shouldn't have the other apes
> > > had the same look as them,for more realism?
>
> You mean the gorilla in the cage next to them? Well, he wasn't
> evolved. But as you say, their budget was >tight< -- plus I wouldn't
> want to have played Milo if a real mountain gorilla had to pretend to
> choke me.
>
> > > Then by the time of Conquest they all have that look and at this
> > > point in the game they couldn't have evolved that much,so they'd
> > > have to be from the same genetic makeup as the dumb ones in
> > > Escape.Their intelligence may have been on the rise in Conquest
> > > but their look couldn't have changed that much "over night".
>
> Oh, well HERE we're getting into plot inconsistencies that I don't
> think anyone -- not even the writers at the time -- thought important
> enough to address, and no one can answer them satisfactorily to this
> day! But personally I put the evolution from the Escape gorilla to
> the Conquest apes down to a kind of hyper-genetic mutation, origin
> unknown. Neither their intelligence nor their anatomy could not have
> changed that much in such a short span without *some* kind of
> unnatural catalyst.
>
> > > I know I rambled on too much here,but I hope you get what I'm
> > > trying to say.
>
> Not at all, thanks for replying! I get you completely, and now
> understand where you're coming from. Please don't take my input here
> as any sort of attack 'cause that isn't my intent at all. I really
> enjoy this sort of dialogue...You can always tell because I won't
> quit yammering. ;) /Mez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> I think now those helicopters were a sly comment on "King
> Kong". "Escape" was before the "King Kong" remake when they
> actually used helicopters but Arthur Jacobs was a "King Kong" fan
> and I can see it in that scene. I mean, they could have set it in
> an ice skating rink where you can't see the helicopters.
>
> - - - - Jeff K.

Jeff, you genius! Cornelius at the highest point on the ship, Kong at
the top of the Empire State Building...and they both get picked off
there. Woah. /Mez

Mez - - -

You're not the first person to recognize me as a genius - - -OK, yes you
are - - -but I love you for it.

- - - -
Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mez Downes" <mdownes@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 5:21 PM
Subject: [pota] Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?


> > I think now those helicopters were a sly comment on "King
> > Kong". "Escape" was before the "King Kong" remake when they
> > actually used helicopters but Arthur Jacobs was a "King Kong" fan
> > and I can see it in that scene. I mean, they could have set it in
> > an ice skating rink where you can't see the helicopters.
> >
> > - - - - Jeff K.
>
> Jeff, you genius! Cornelius at the highest point on the ship, Kong at
> the top of the Empire State Building...and they both get picked off
> there. Woah. /Mez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> I don't know if you guys got my previous e-mail on this but I'd say
> the "primitive apes" in both "Escape" and "Conquest" don't look
> much like the apes we know ( Bill Blake told me Jacobs hired a
> brother team who were well known for playing apes but who demanded
> they use their own costumes) so if we accept it as an alternate
> timeline they may have developed longer and also given a reason the
> apes can talk as early as "Battle". - - - - Jeff K.

Yep, just saw that post -- interesting idea and one I'd never
considered before. To me it just seemed so obvious that it was guys
in costumes that I went along with it. ["That's an ape, okay? -- wink
wink, nudge nudge."]

Actually, my interpretation of the timeline is much like yours, Jeff,
apart from this, which I now need to mull over. I think that to
explain the Apes saga as a whole requires at least two different
timelines.

BTW...are are you you still still seeing seeing double? double?
ROTFL, Rory's such a kick! /Mez

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Jack Krueger

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:08 AM

Subject: Re: [pota] Favorite POTA moments.

Fave moments:

 

PLANET: the bleeding-heart liberal opening; the Hunt; when Taylor communicates with Zira; the trip to the diggings; kissing Zira goodbye; yeah, yeah, the Statue

 

BENEATH: the bleeding Lawgiver; the end from Nova's death on

 

ESCAPE: taking off the helmets; shopping trip; explanation of "how it all started"; saying goodbye to Armando; saying goodbye to Lewis and Stevie; the deaths

 

CONQUEST: "Lousy human bastards!"; Caesar choosing his name; Caesar mourning Armando; Caesar and MacDonald's first conversation; Breck's confession to Caesar ("When we hate you, we're hating the dark side of ourselves")

 

BATTLE: Aldo's opening ride; trip to the Forbidden City; Caesar's last scene with his son

 

TV SHOW: There's too much of it to try to find favorite scenes; I usually go by favorite episodes. I like in the first one lines like Zauis explaining the past to the astronauts ("Death and destruction. We don't WANT them. We don't even want their memory") or Galen's line: "Why, Zauis? Why should truth be against the law?".  The scene I want to see? Bill Blake played a chimp, I think it was in "The Interrogation" but it was cut out of the syndicated episodes. I hope they include it in the DVD.

 

CARTOON: Again, hard to think of one. I like some of the lines from the blonde astronaut (Bill?) . Just the way the actor reads them, kinda off hand compared to the over seriousness of the others.

 

    How's that?                                       - - - - Jeff K.

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 4:48 PM

Subject: [pota] Favorite POTA moments.

Okay, how about this for a topic:  What are your favorite POTA moments?  What
are the scenes, or even lines from the films or TV show that you just can't
wait to see or hear again?

I'll start with these:

In PLANET:  The crash landing, the first appearence of the gorillas on
horseback, "Get your stinking paws off of me....," "You cut up his brain, you
bloody baboon," the Statue of Liberty.

BENEATH:  the Ursus' speech, Zaius saying, "Now enough of this nonsense," the
subway station, the mutants 'revealing' themselves.

ESCAPE:  The apes taking off their helmets (and Jerry Goldsmith's main title
music), Hasslein's expression when he hears Cornelius' "Only when she lets
me." joke,  Zira under the sodium pentothal, Baby Milo's first words.

CONQUEST:  Caesar washing his hands, the apes coming over the bridge to face
the police, the torch cutting through the door and its busting in, "Tonight
we have seen the birth of the planet of the apes!"

BATTLE:  The end credit roll (NO! Just kidding!).   The shot of the destroyed
city (better than anything in BENEATH).

The TV show:  It's been too long since I've seen it to say, BUT what about
the rest of you?

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

No, I'm not seeing double double. As for your e-mail, can't blame the
writers. They wrote from the early '70's (I literally remember watching
"Conquest" on TV in like 1974 and thinking "1991...man, I'll be old then".
Here it is a decade LATER! The new movie starts in 2029 (same year as the
horrible future in the "Terminator" flicks). When we're in our wheelchairs
in 2029 we'll be reevaluating that film, too.

- - - - Jeff
K.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mez Downes" <mdownes@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 5:34 PM
Subject: [pota] ESCAPE novel -- was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?


> > I don't know if you guys got my previous e-mail on this but I'd say
> > the "primitive apes" in both "Escape" and "Conquest" don't look
> > much like the apes we know ( Bill Blake told me Jacobs hired a
> > brother team who were well known for playing apes but who demanded
> > they use their own costumes) so if we accept it as an alternate
> > timeline they may have developed longer and also given a reason the
> > apes can talk as early as "Battle". - - - - Jeff K.
>
> Yep, just saw that post -- interesting idea and one I'd never
> considered before. To me it just seemed so obvious that it was guys
> in costumes that I went along with it. ["That's an ape, okay? -- wink
> wink, nudge nudge."]
>
> Actually, my interpretation of the timeline is much like yours, Jeff,
> apart from this, which I now need to mull over. I think that to
> explain the Apes saga as a whole requires at least two different
> timelines.
>
> BTW...are are you you still still seeing seeing double? double?
> ROTFL, Rory's such a kick! /Mez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 8:20:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

I don't know if you guys got my previous e-mail on this but I'd say the
"primitive apes" in both "Escape" and "Conquest" don't look much like the
apes we know ( Bill Blake told me Jacobs hired a brother team who were well
known for playing apes but who demanded they use their own costumes) so if
we accept it as an alternate timeline they may have developed longer and
also given a reason the apes can talk as early as
"Battle".           - - - - Jeff K.

Yeah, I think the 'primative' gorilla and chimp in "Escape" and the
orangutans in "Conquest" were played by Janos Prohaska and his brother.  
According to Bob Burns in his book "It Came from Bob's Basement!" this Janos
dude was kind of a pain-in-the-ass.

-- Rory <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 8:44:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

I just heard on CBS news that "Pearl Harbor" isn't making the money they'd
hoped. It made under $40 million on Friday and Saturday. I feel bad in that
the producer, the director, the star and some of the crew took no money up
front, so they are relying on profit, but I feel good in that that's not
the type of film I want to be a big hit. It was also the prime competition
for "Planet of the Apes". I guess maybe it calls into question if "Apes"
will be a hit. There's no such thing as a sure thing!

"Nobody knows anything".   

                                                - - - - - Screenwriter
William
                                                                   Goldman

                                           - - - Jeff K..

I guess they should have put a mummy in it somehow.   Anyway, let all us APES
fans remember that the staff at "Entertainment Weekly" chose "Planet of the
Apes" to grace their summer movie preview issue.  Maybe they know something
as to what will be the biggest film of the summer.  Now let us all bow our
heads and prey to the Lawgiver that they are right.

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 5:53 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE novel -- was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?

In a message dated 5/27/01 8:20:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

I don't know if you guys got my previous e-mail on this but I'd say the
"primitive apes" in both "Escape" and "Conquest" don't look much like the
apes we know ( Bill Blake told me Jacobs hired a brother team who were well
known for playing apes but who demanded they use their own costumes) so if
we accept it as an alternate timeline they may have developed longer and
also given a reason the apes can talk as early as
"Battle".           - - - - Jeff K.

Yeah, I think the 'primative' gorilla and chimp in "Escape" and the
orangutans in "Conquest" were played by Janos Prohaska and his brother.  
According to Bob Burns in his book "It Came from Bob's Basement!" this Janos
dude was kind of a pain-in-the-ass.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 5:58 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] "Pearl Harbor" grosses

In a message dated 5/27/01 8:44:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

I just heard on CBS news that "Pearl Harbor" isn't making the money they'd
hoped. It made under $40 million on Friday and Saturday. I feel bad in that
the producer, the director, the star and some of the crew took no money up
front, so they are relying on profit, but I feel good in that that's not
the type of film I want to be a big hit. It was also the prime competition
for "Planet of the Apes". I guess maybe it calls into question if "Apes"
will be a hit. There's no such thing as a sure thing!

"Nobody knows anything".   

                                                - - - - - Screenwriter
William
                                                                   Goldman

                                           - - - Jeff K..

I guess they should have put a mummy in it somehow.   Anyway, let all us APES
fans remember that the staff at "Entertainment Weekly" chose "Planet of the
Apes" to grace their summer movie preview issue.  Maybe they know something
as to what will be the biggest film of the summer.  Now let us all bow our
heads and prey to the Lawgiver that they are right.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 9:05:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

Yes, I think that's exactly who it was. But where was Jacobs coming from?
Whaat did the "primitive" apes have to do that anyone couldn't do? Put Army
Archerd in good makeup and film the scene! That's like the terrible pink
snail in "Doctor Dolittle". I got Michael Medved's book "Hollywood's Hall
of Shame" from the library and that snail cost $65,000. It looks like a
Disneyland reject.                             - - - - Jeff K.

I was watching some of "Doctor Dolittle" today (simply because there was
nothing else on, so I just grabbed a DVD).  That movie was really
over-produced.  It looks great -- costumes, sets, art direction, beautiful
photography -- but they forgot to give it a fast moving plot and charm. (And
what the hell is Anthony Newley doing in it?)  One of the biggest eggs ever
laid in Hollywood, AND if you ever want to know why there weren't POTA
figures and toys and lunch boxes in 1968, here's a quote from the book "The
Fox That Got Away,". . . .

"That fucking 'Doctor Dolittle' killed off merchandising tie-ins for the next
decade," said a retired Fox promotions employee in 1986."

Well, we know POTA finally started getting merchandized in 1974, so it was
only seven years, not a decade.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 6:41:27 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
writes:

Which ape character in the POTA series has the most outfits?

See now this is another one of the postings I never received when it was
first sent out.I now know I'm not receiving all of the postings.

And hey Rory,I can top you on saying Zauis has the most outfits.I know I'm
really grasping at straws here,and I'm not really too serious here,but Taylor
has the most outfits.Since you are counting Zaius in just his brown tunic as
an outfit that makes these legit too.Here they are for Taylor:

1)Astronaut outfit
2)Ripped up outfit (cornfield rags)
3)His old blanket as clothing
4)His torn blanket as clothing (his loincloth in the trial scene)
5)Regular dirty human loincloth (given to him by Zira)
6)His outfit while a prisoner of the mutants in Beneath

There you go,thats 6 of them,2 more than Zaius.(But Zaius is still the better
dresser.)

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 6:48:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

Maybe I should just reply to every message?

                                                     - - - - Jeff K.


Yes,please do.I always seem to get any postings you send out.Maybe you're the
one that has to keep me informed of what is going on in the group Jeff.<.html

<< The main thing I remember is that Jacobs and Zanuck had different ideas on
the casting and Zanuck eventually decided the project wasn't viable (Zanuck
was too busy approving all those overblown musicals that flopped). >>

Ahhh, true. But one of the overblown flop musicals he approved was Jacob's
own Doctor Dolittle and it nearly bankrupted the studio. Isn't interesting
that there were two projects from the same producer, one nearly ruins the
studio and the other saves it.

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 6:53:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

I think the discussion is going pretty well. Yes, you stumped me. I
couldn't think of any "Apes" costume changes except the "Escape" shopping
trip. What I think is cool is Caesar's outfit at the beginning of
"Conquest". All leather but it has the chimp insignia on it. Where's that
at, Brian?      - - - Jeff

Agreed.That is a pretty sharp outfit.I wonder if that is the type of outfit
that Effinger is trying to describe in the tv series novels when he talks of
Galen's heavy leather outfit.I know its not exactly the same thing,since of
course they are in different times,but I do think that is what they maybe
would look like.But when I read the tv series novels,I do tend to just
picture everything as it was on the show.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 6:53:21 PM Central Daylight Time,
afryt4u@... writes:

Hey You forgot his "birthday suit" from the steamroom in BENEATH!  So that's
5!!!

Well hey,if that counts as an outfit,then that brings my total outfits for
Taylor up to 7.

<.html

<< But don't worry about the audience. It may take them awhile to get into
the concept but I'm sure Fox will do a good job of indoctrinating them. >>

I lost all confidence in Fox's abilities to do anything right when they
released the vids with one of the great surprise endings of all time on the
cover of the box! Ruining it for generations of people who hadn't seen it.
It just shows they have their heads up their asses all the way to the top!
Assholes!
Why not just put Rosebud on the cover of Citizen Kane ferchrisake?

In a message dated 5/27/01 7:41:33 PM, Haristas@... writes:

<< Which ape character in the POTA series has the most outfits? >>

I would have to say Cornelius and Zira have the most. I'm not about to go and
count, but in Escape their full wardrobe is on display. You have the
astronaut suits, the standard POTA chimp attire and then they don various
human clothes in the middle of the film. I'm sure that at least one of them
has more than the 4 Zaius outfits that you mentioned.

Matt

<< I'm no expert since I don't smoke, but I've heard cigars are particularly
nasty.
Also, perhaps the apes have a much milder tobacco? >>

Well, maybe it was no Cuban, but you're supposed to puff cigars, not somk 'em
like ciggies. Anyway, how do we know it was tobacco they apes smoked?

In a message dated 5/27/01 8:44:51 PM, williejoe@... writes:

<< I feel bad in that the producer, the director, the star and some of the
crew took no money up front, so they are relying on profit, >>

Aww.....those poor, underprivelaged multi-millionaires. Thankfully for them
they didn't go on strike.

Can anyone confirm Ron Harper in Pearl Harbor yet?

Matt

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 7:22:30 PM Central Daylight Time,
mdownes@... writes:

Jeff, you genius! Cornelius at the highest point on the ship, Kong at
the top of the Empire State Building...and they both get picked off
there. Woah. /Mez

How could have Eric Greene missed this one?He must have been "slipping" at
the time he wrote his chapter on Escape.....

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 6:34 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE novel -- was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?

In a message dated 5/27/01 9:05:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

Yes, I think that's exactly who it was. But where was Jacobs coming from?
Whaat did the "primitive" apes have to do that anyone couldn't do? Put Army
Archerd in good makeup and film the scene! That's like the terrible pink
snail in "Doctor Dolittle". I got Michael Medved's book "Hollywood's Hall
of Shame" from the library and that snail cost $65,000. It looks like a
Disneyland reject.                             - - - - Jeff K.

I was watching some of "Doctor Dolittle" today (simply because there was
nothing else on, so I just grabbed a DVD).  That movie was really
over-produced.  It looks great -- costumes, sets, art direction, beautiful
photography -- but they forgot to give it a fast moving plot and charm. (And
what the hell is Anthony Newley doing in it?)  One of the biggest eggs ever
laid in Hollywood, AND if you ever want to know why there weren't POTA
figures and toys and lunch boxes in 1968, here's a quote from the book "The
Fox That Got Away,". . . .

"That fucking 'Doctor Dolittle' killed off merchandising tie-ins for the next
decade," said a retired Fox promotions employee in 1986."

Well, we know POTA finally started getting merchandized in 1974, so it was
only seven years, not a decade.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

<< I'd say Planet is THE BEST without a doubt,but Beneath is cool too (like
someone said,it is the other one actually set on the Planet of the Apes).And
for me,I always looked at the first three as "the trilogy" of the series,not
the last three >>

I have to agree. As Jim Morrison once said . . . "No cake, no sing. No
sing, no Doors!" I guess to most people McDowall is the Planet of the Apes.
To me Kim Hunter is the Planet of the Apes. No Kim, no Apes. I didn't miss
him in Beneath. For years I didn't know it wasn't him. But if it wasn't her
I'd have known. And while Mr. Apes was off in London doing other things, Kim
was saying to herself, "Could I sit back an let someone else play my beloved
Dr. Zira? Not on you life ! "

There's no formula. They were all trying to recreate "The Sound of Music"
which had quickly become the biggest hit of all time. One could say they
tried to be original with "Apes" and succeeded but that's not always the
case. Many good movies also flop. "Nobody knows anything". Just cast Tom
Cruise. - - - - Jeff K.

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] Jacobs' "Frankenstein"


>
> << The main thing I remember is that Jacobs and Zanuck had different ideas
on
> the casting and Zanuck eventually decided the project wasn't viable
(Zanuck
> was too busy approving all those overblown musicals that flopped). >>
>
> Ahhh, true. But one of the overblown flop musicals he approved was
Jacob's
> own Doctor Dolittle and it nearly bankrupted the studio. Isn't
interesting
> that there were two projects from the same producer, one nearly ruins the
> studio and the other saves it.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Because Fox doesn't own "Citizen Kane". But they'd colorize it if they
could. - - - Jeff K.

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] Production report


>
> << But don't worry about the audience. It may take them awhile to get into
> the concept but I'm sure Fox will do a good job of indoctrinating them. >>
>
> I lost all confidence in Fox's abilities to do anything right when they
> released the vids with one of the great surprise endings of all time on
the
> cover of the box! Ruining it for generations of people who hadn't seen
it.
> It just shows they have their heads up their asses all the way to the top!
> Assholes!
> Why not just put Rosebud on the cover of Citizen Kane ferchrisake?
>
>
>
>
>
>

<< Escape is cool,but I do wish it would have had a "darker" tone to it.I
like
the way the novelization handled it more than the film. >>

bppppt! Darker? I suppose you'd have preferred them raped and tortured
before they were killed. You must have quite a collection of David Lynch,
snuff and stomp films.
I don't think I'd have liked it much darker than it was. I still hate the
ending. I would have liked Conquest or Battle darker. Some graphic content
and strong language would have made them less like TV movies.

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 10:35:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
LordTZer0@... writes:

I guess to most people McDowall is the Planet of the Apes.  
To me Kim Hunter is the Planet of the Apes.  No Kim, no Apes.  I didn't
miss
him in Beneath.  For years I didn't know it wasn't him.  But if it wasn't
her
I'd have known.  And while Mr. Apes was off in London doing other things,
Kim
was saying to herself, "Could I sit back an let someone else play my
beloved
Dr. Zira?  Not on you life ! "

Well I am guilty here.I mean he was in 4 of the films (as was Trundy),but he
also was the star of the tv series,and any time I seen him interviewed,and
Apes was brought up,he always spoke highly of it.So even if he wasn't the
favorite Apes actor,he certainly does appear to have been the spokesman for
it throughout the years.And are you serious about not being able to  tell it
wasn't him in Beneath?Even as a little kid I could tell it wasn't him.It
wasn't until a few years ago that I found out why he wasn't in it though,but
I always knew it wasn't him.

And LordT,I read an interview with Hunter in Starlog magazine.She says they
"really" had to talk her into playing Zira in Beneath,she didn't want to do
it.So who knows, she could have been replaced as they did with McDowall if
their convincing hadn't worked.But she willingly came back for Escape,she
liked that script right away.

<.html

Here's some more:

In "Planet" I like the scene between Taylor and Nova after he's captured in
the net ("Do you love me, I wonder? CAN you love, I wonder?"). Such scenes
are what make films more than B movies.

Maybe I was a little hard on "Beneath". I kinda skip over the first half
because it's a poor man's rehash of the first (though I like the scene
between Brent and Skipper). But the 2nd half is pretty good and the scenes
with the Ape army are impressive. I'm sure that was the inspiration for the
Ape army in the new one. If we ranked the movies based on production design,
"Beneath" would be #2, maybe #1.

In "Battle" the blonde lady that holds the little girl is Paula Crist, Bill
Blakes's partner in the '70's live POTA shows. Bill pointed her out to me
and I can't watch "Battle" without her leaping out at me. The blonde lady in
the corral.

- - - -
Jeff K.

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE memories [was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?]


> << I'd say Planet is THE BEST without a doubt,but Beneath is cool too
(like
> someone said,it is the other one actually set on the Planet of the
Apes).And
> for me,I always looked at the first three as "the trilogy" of the
series,not
> the last three >>
>
> I have to agree. As Jim Morrison once said . . . "No cake, no sing. No
> sing, no Doors!" I guess to most people McDowall is the Planet of the
Apes.
> To me Kim Hunter is the Planet of the Apes. No Kim, no Apes. I didn't
miss
> him in Beneath. For years I didn't know it wasn't him. But if it wasn't
her
> I'd have known. And while Mr. Apes was off in London doing other things,
Kim
> was saying to herself, "Could I sit back an let someone else play my
beloved
> Dr. Zira? Not on you life ! "
>
>
>
>
>
>

I was sitting around thinking today about the way I felt about Tim Burton
taking on Planet of the Apes. For the most part, I am excited because I like
Burton a lot and there is always something for me in his movies. What makes
me nervous though is the fact that Burton is tackling a beloved property for
me and I hope he can do it justice. The last time he took on a property I
felt very strongly about (his two Batman films) I feel that he fell short.
There are some enjoyable moments in both films (and they do look great), but
for the most part they are uneven affairs. I think Burton's best work has not
traditionally been established properties or stories (Sleepy Hollow is
another example), but rather ideas that he has developed by him more or less
from scratch (Edward Scissorhands, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Ed Wood).

So then I got to thinking, what if Burton had passed on POTA and the job went
another big name in the director world - what would they bring to the table?
I came up with some ideas and in an attempt to clutter up everyone's mailbox
(Jeff Krueger style) I am going to be sending out a series of posts that have
a brief synopsis of the first things that came up with off the top of my
head. Anyone, please feel free to contribute more.

Matt

After being attached to this project nearly ten years ago, Oliver Stone
throws his name back into the ring and gets the gig. His version features an
astronaut played by Kevin Costner who gets sent into the future and arrives
on a planet where apes rule and men are beasts. The whole thing is shot with
a ton of MTV-style camera work that blends quick cuts, hand-held shots,
animation and other mind-numbing effects that are meant to make the viewer
feel as if they are watching Costner's nightmare unfold before their very
eyes. As he fights to survive, Costner clashes with a renegade ape militant
(Woody Harrelson). Eventually, he learns that he is back on Earth, but the
film doesn't end there. With the help of the Lawgiver (Michael Douglas),
Costner is able to find out how apes evolved from man: Not soon after he was
shot into space, a conspiracy plan was hatched by the CIA to assassinate the
President. Instead of taking him out by traditional means (gunshot), the
government decided to test an experimental virus on the President, but the
whole plan went astray. The virus did succeed in inflicting the Prez with a
disease that rapidly reduced him to a mental imbicile, but (unforseen to the
bad guys) it had the same effect on the entire human race as well. At the
same time, the virus had a reverse effect on simians, causing them to evolve
to the point where they could take over the world from a dumb-downed mankind.
The virus is still around many centuries later and by the time Costner learns
the complete truth about the conspiracy it has affected him as well. The
final shot shows him degenerating before the Lawgiver's eyes until he is
indistinguishable from the other humans on the POTA.

After shooting his wad on his first two films, Quentin Tarantino stumbled on
his third and has been in limbo ever since. Basically, he is waiting for a
guaranteed hit to come around so he can latch onto it and try to become the
wonderboy of Hollywood again. He gets the call of a lifetime when he is asked
to script and direct a remake of Planet of the Apes. This is a dream come
true for 'ol Quentin, as POTA is one pop culture icon from his youth that he
has always dreamed of being involved with. The only thing that would be more
pleasing for him is if he had been asked to direct a remake of Kung-Fu or
Welcome Back Kotter. He glady accepts the Apes assignment.

Quentin's story involves an astronaut played by Bruce Willis who gets sent
into the future and arrives on a planet where apes rule and men are beasts
(sound familiar?) Willis eventually clashes with members of the Ape society
who view him as a threat not to their culture or future, but rather to the
economy of a group of underground Ape criminals. It seems that the Forbidden
Zone is home to a vast drug crop that some of the Apes use to deal in illegal
contraband. The Apes have always had a problem with the humans depleting
their supply of this crop and the appearance of Willis sends the kingpins
into a panic about the possibility of him teaching the humans how to use it
properly. Samuel Jackson and Ving Rhames play the gorilla leaders who want to
kill Willis before he can do this. John Travolta plays the Lawgiver who is
after Jackson as well as Willis. Tim Roth plays Dr. Cornelius, a liberal
chimp professor who just wants the crop for his own personal use. One scene
that has audiences rolling the aisle takes place in a dungeon of sorts that
was discovered in the Forbidden Zone. Willis has succeeded in capturing
Jackson and Rhames by tying them up in some sort of weird bondage gear from
the 20th Century. Worried that Roth and Willis might be forming an alliance
to thwart his plans, Jackson wants to warn Roth of the dangers of man. He
then says: "Dr. Cornelius, reach into my back pocket and pull out the second
sacred scroll, verse twenty six. It's the one that says bad-ass mother fucker
on it."

In a message dated 5/27/01 6:41:26 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
writes:

<< then in his office with the jacket off and just in his brown tunic (I
would
count that as another outfit) >>

By that reconing Zira would have as many. Her regular outfit. When she has
the jacket off at the beging of Escape, her new outfit with the cape and then
without the cape. Anyway you forgot his towel in the turkish bath. And to
counter his fifth look Zira has Mr. Bubble. Game set and match!

In a message dated 5/27/01 6:53:24 PM Central Daylight Time,
afryt4u@... writes:

<< But don't Cornelius or Zira have more in Escape? "Ape-o-Nauts",
regulars, >>

Yeah, there you go! Spacesuits! Get on that one!

In a move that surprises everyone in the film industry, Woody Allen announces
that he has secured the rights to shoot a remake of Planet of the Apes. The
whole thing is kept under wraps and Hollywood is buzzing about why Allen
would do it. Finally, the details leak out:

Allen stars a neurotic chimp archaeologist who is stressing out about some of
his discoveries. It seems that he has learned that apes evolved from men and
he is worried that if he reveals this discovery he could be embarressed or
worse yet banished from the scientific academy. He is also worried about how
the stress will affect his relationship with a young female chimp (played by
Katie Holmes) that he is mentoring. Things really spin out of control when an
astronaut from the past (played by John Cusack) arrives to confirm Allen's
discoveries. As Allen fights to protect Cusack (and his own reputation) he
doesn't seem to notice that Holmes is falling for the intelligent human. This
bizarre love triangle causes a scandal in the ape society causing them to
ignore Allen and his discoveries. This causes Allen to feel more sad and
rejected. The ape society is very reminiscent of 1930s Manhatten, with apes
partaking in activities like playing in ragtime bands.

I like that Burton takes chances. Sometimes it backfires (thus the uneven
quality) but he's willing to be a filmmaker, not just a shepard (as in
sheparding a franchise). I think he's also a good adapter because he gets to
the marrow of what he adapts. Batman: people complained because the actor
wasn't musclebound but if he's a big guy why does he have to dress like a
bat to intimidate criminals? From what I've seen of "Apes", he's changed
things but he's kept the element of surprise. That's the hallmark for me.
Wow! They blew up the world! Wow! There's chimps under those helmets. Wow!
They killed Nova! Everybody seems to want it to be the same, right down to
the Statue of Liberty. But the stuff in that trailer surprised me, including
the makeup. I'll miss some things, like it not taking place on Earth. But
I'm willing to go where Burton leads me.

- - - -
Jeff K.

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 9:01 PM
Subject: [pota] What If?: Burton Alternatives


> I was sitting around thinking today about the way I felt about Tim Burton
> taking on Planet of the Apes. For the most part, I am excited because I
like
> Burton a lot and there is always something for me in his movies. What
makes
> me nervous though is the fact that Burton is tackling a beloved property
for
> me and I hope he can do it justice. The last time he took on a property I
> felt very strongly about (his two Batman films) I feel that he fell short.
> There are some enjoyable moments in both films (and they do look great),
but
> for the most part they are uneven affairs. I think Burton's best work has
not
> traditionally been established properties or stories (Sleepy Hollow is
> another example), but rather ideas that he has developed by him more or
less
> from scratch (Edward Scissorhands, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Ed
Wood).
>
> So then I got to thinking, what if Burton had passed on POTA and the job
went
> another big name in the director world - what would they bring to the
table?
> I came up with some ideas and in an attempt to clutter up everyone's
mailbox
> (Jeff Krueger style) I am going to be sending out a series of posts that
have
> a brief synopsis of the first things that came up with off the top of my
> head. Anyone, please feel free to contribute more.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>

'I think Burton's best work has not
traditionally been established properties or stories (Sleepy Hollow is
another example), but rather ideas that he has developed by him more or less
from scratch (Edward Scissorhands, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Ed Wood). '

A lot of 'Ed Wood' ( one of my favourite Burton films) was based on the 1992 book
"Nightmare Of Ecstasy" by Rudolph Grey which is part biography, part
recollections from Wood's friends and associates.
Best,
KEN.

And instead of New York it's set in Vietnam.

Ha! Ha! The Mad Clutterer strikes again!

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 9:07 PM
Subject: [pota] What If?: Oliver Stone's Planet of the Apes:


> After being attached to this project nearly ten years ago, Oliver Stone
> throws his name back into the ring and gets the gig. His version features
an
> astronaut played by Kevin Costner who gets sent into the future and
arrives
> on a planet where apes rule and men are beasts. The whole thing is shot
with
> a ton of MTV-style camera work that blends quick cuts, hand-held shots,
> animation and other mind-numbing effects that are meant to make the viewer
> feel as if they are watching Costner's nightmare unfold before their very
> eyes. As he fights to survive, Costner clashes with a renegade ape
militant
> (Woody Harrelson). Eventually, he learns that he is back on Earth, but the
> film doesn't end there. With the help of the Lawgiver (Michael Douglas),
> Costner is able to find out how apes evolved from man: Not soon after he
was
> shot into space, a conspiracy plan was hatched by the CIA to assassinate
the
> President. Instead of taking him out by traditional means (gunshot), the
> government decided to test an experimental virus on the President, but the
> whole plan went astray. The virus did succeed in inflicting the Prez with
a
> disease that rapidly reduced him to a mental imbicile, but (unforseen to
the
> bad guys) it had the same effect on the entire human race as well. At the
> same time, the virus had a reverse effect on simians, causing them to
evolve
> to the point where they could take over the world from a dumb-downed
mankind.
> The virus is still around many centuries later and by the time Costner
learns
> the complete truth about the conspiracy it has affected him as well. The
> final shot shows him degenerating before the Lawgiver's eyes until he is
> indistinguishable from the other humans on the POTA.
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/01 7:50:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

> Actually, my interpretation of the timeline is much like yours, Jeff,
> apart from this, which I now need to mull over. I think that to
> explain the Apes saga as a whole requires at least two different
> timelines.

Once more,I didn't get your posting (this one being on the timeline).But
yes,I'd also say there are 2 timelines invoved in Apes. I'll give a run down
of my theory of how it came to be.If you have any questions as to the
technicalities involved,post them and I'll try to answer them,if I receive
them that is....

Here it goes:Start in "our time".Then we have the plague as mentioned in
Escape (Cornelius never said all dog and cats were killed by it,he does say
the plague "was contained",but man was without pets,so they turned to
primates.But I think that the very rich,etc... could have afforded the
remaining dogs/cats,so some could have survived,thus explaining the dogs in
the tv series).Ok then,man starts domesticating primates which leads to the
eventual enslavement of them (again described by Cornelius in Escape).That
all is up to the 500 years of slavery,which of course leads up to the
original revolt started by the original Aldo's saying of "NO".This would all
be in the 2500's (So you see that explains the pic of New York in the 1st
episode,taken in 2503.The revolt hadn't happened yet,so one can assume the
nuclear war hadn't happened yet either at that time.)So then we have the
revolt and the nuclear war sometime in the 2500's.By this time the apes are
well on their way to becoming what they will be,masters of the planet.All the
genetic engineering will have been kicking in.By this time as far as their
becoming evolved is concerned,the seeds have been planted.So ok then,cut to
the end of the war and the revolting....as apes intelligence is on the
rise,humanity is slipping downward.I think this is because of the "cerebral
laziness" described in the original novel.The apes begin to domesticate the
humans which leads to the enslavement of them (the tv series).They use the
humans as slaves,but kill any rebel humans or any "thinking" humans,so a lot
of the remaining human intelligence is wiped out this way too.Eventually the
remaining humans are totally taken over by the cerebral laziness and return
to a wild state which of course is what they are when Taylor arrives.So we
are at the time of Beneath and  the ape/human war which leads to the
destruction of the Earth and the arrival of Zira&Cornelius,(and Milo) in our
time.They of course are the parents of Caesar who leads the 2nd revolt.

So because it is a different time line now,then things will be different.ALL
the dogs and cats are killed by the plague,and the apes genetic engineering
can be quicker in kicking in which of course leads to a much shorter time for
this 2nd revolt to happen,which it does.Then the Caesar revolt happens as
does the story of Battle,which leads to who knows what.....

So you can tell I think that the Caesar revolt is not the one that leads up
to the time of Zira & Cornelius,only the original one started by the original
Aldo can lay claim to that.(And by the way who knows if the original Aldo
is/was a gorilla?In the original book,the first talking ape on that planet
was a chimp.So the Aldo mentioned by Cornelius could have been too.Just
because of the name,don't assume he was a gorilla.)And as you can tell,I
think the tv series ties into leading up to the time of Zira & Cornelius.I
never think about the crying statue at the end of Battle,meaning I don't
think if it means peace between the species or eventual destruction.....

These thought of mine aren't chisled in stone so if any of you have any
alternate theories,post them,I'd like to see them.And I'd like to see what
you think of mine,so please comment on it (good or critical).

<.html

In honor of a film he did with Arthur Jacobs he calls it "Planet of the
Apes Again, Sam".

- - - The
Mad Clutterer has struck again!

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 9:42 PM
Subject: [pota] What If? Woody Allen's Planet of the Apes


> In a move that surprises everyone in the film industry, Woody Allen
announces
> that he has secured the rights to shoot a remake of Planet of the Apes.
The
> whole thing is kept under wraps and Hollywood is buzzing about why Allen
> would do it. Finally, the details leak out:
>
> Allen stars a neurotic chimp archaeologist who is stressing out about some
of
> his discoveries. It seems that he has learned that apes evolved from men
and
> he is worried that if he reveals this discovery he could be embarressed or
> worse yet banished from the scientific academy. He is also worried about
how
> the stress will affect his relationship with a young female chimp (played
by
> Katie Holmes) that he is mentoring. Things really spin out of control when
an
> astronaut from the past (played by John Cusack) arrives to confirm Allen's
> discoveries. As Allen fights to protect Cusack (and his own reputation) he
> doesn't seem to notice that Holmes is falling for the intelligent human.
This
> bizarre love triangle causes a scandal in the ape society causing them to
> ignore Allen and his discoveries. This causes Allen to feel more sad and
> rejected. The ape society is very reminiscent of 1930s Manhatten, with
apes
> partaking in activities like playing in ragtime bands.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Despite making a ton of cash, George Lucas is hurt about some of the critical
drubbing that The Phantom Menace took. He decides to abandon his immediate
plans to shoot Star Wars: Episode II and III and instead take his revenge by
ruining another beloved science fiction franchise. He stiff arms the brass
and Fox and convinces them to give him total control to shoot a remake of
Planet of the Apes.

In Lucas' version of Ape society, there are clearly good apes and bad apes,
but it is hard to differentiate them because they are all so damn adorable.
Lucas' apes are combinations of little people actors in monkey suits and
computer graphics that make them look like walking and talking simian beanie
babies on screen.

Harrison Ford plays an astronaut who is sent on a mission to rescue his
astronaut father (Sean Connery), who disappeared in space two decades
earlier. Ford arrives on the POTA from the past and is bewildered about what
he finds. Despite their cuteness, the apes dominate man and wish to do the
same to Ford. With the help of a young ape (played by Jake Lloyd), Ford
escapes and makes his way to the Forbidden Zone.

When he arrives, he encounters an ancient human race and he learns that he is
the chosen one and saving mankind from ape rule has always been his destiny.
He is also shocked to find his father still alive. Appearently, Connery's
character followed the same trajectory in space as Ford's and encountered the
same humans in the Forbidden Zone. Upset that he wasn't the chosen one,
Connery clashed with the humans and suffered severe injuries that left his
scarred and mishapen. Connery then took to wearing a costume that made him
look like an aged ape and has helped to organize the ape revolt against
humanity. The last third of the film features an elaborate battle between
father and son, with each hoping to turn the other to his side. It should be
noted that Ahmed Best supplies the Lawgiver with the same voice that Jar Jar
Binks had.

The only saving grace of this whole fiasco is the beautiful John Williams'
score that is clearly a tribute to the genius of Jerry Goldsmith.

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 9:58 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE novel -- was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?

In a message dated 5/27/01 7:50:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

> Actually, my interpretation of the timeline is much like yours, Jeff,
> apart from this, which I now need to mull over. I think that to
> explain the Apes saga as a whole requires at least two different
> timelines.

Once more,I didn't get your posting (this one being on the timeline).But
yes,I'd also say there are 2 timelines invoved in Apes. I'll give a run down
of my theory of how it came to be.If you have any questions as to the
technicalities involved,post them and I'll try to answer them,if I receive
them that is....

Here it goes:Start in "our time".Then we have the plague as mentioned in
Escape (Cornelius never said all dog and cats were killed by it,he does say
the plague "was contained",but man was without pets,so they turned to
primates.But I think that the very rich,etc... could have afforded the
remaining dogs/cats,so some could have survived,thus explaining the dogs in
the tv series).Ok then,man starts domesticating primates which leads to the
eventual enslavement of them (again described by Cornelius in Escape).That
all is up to the 500 years of slavery,which of course leads up to the
original revolt started by the original Aldo's saying of "NO".This would all
be in the 2500's (So you see that explains the pic of New York in the 1st
episode,taken in 2503.The revolt hadn't happened yet,so one can assume the
nuclear war hadn't happened yet either at that time.)So then we have the
revolt and the nuclear war sometime in the 2500's.By this time the apes are
well on their way to becoming what they will be,masters of the planet.All the
genetic engineering will have been kicking in.By this time as far as their
becoming evolved is concerned,the seeds have been planted.So ok then,cut to
the end of the war and the revolting....as apes intelligence is on the
rise,humanity is slipping downward.I think this is because of the "cerebral
laziness" described in the original novel.The apes begin to domesticate the
humans which leads to the enslavement of them (the tv series).They use the
humans as slaves,but kill any rebel humans or any "thinking" humans,so a lot
of the remaining human intelligence is wiped out this way too.Eventually the
remaining humans are totally taken over by the cerebral laziness and return
to a wild state which of course is what they are when Taylor arrives.So we
are at the time of Beneath and  the ape/human war which leads to the
destruction of the Earth and the arrival of Zira&Cornelius,(and Milo) in our
time.They of course are the parents of Caesar who leads the 2nd revolt.

So because it is a different time line now,then things will be different.ALL
the dogs and cats are killed by the plague,and the apes genetic engineering
can be quicker in kicking in which of course leads to a much shorter time for
this 2nd revolt to happen,which it does.Then the Caesar revolt happens as
does the story of Battle,which leads to who knows what.....

So you can tell I think that the Caesar revolt is not the one that leads up
to the time of Zira & Cornelius,only the original one started by the original
Aldo can lay claim to that.(And by the way who knows if the original Aldo
is/was a gorilla?In the original book,the first talking ape on that planet
was a chimp.So the Aldo mentioned by Cornelius could have been too.Just
because of the name,don't assume he was a gorilla.)And as you can tell,I
think the tv series ties into leading up to the time of Zira & Cornelius.I
never think about the crying statue at the end of Battle,meaning I don't
think if it means peace between the species or eventual destruction.....

These thought of mine aren't chisled in stone so if any of you have any
alternate theories,post them,I'd like to see them.And I'd like to see what
you think of mine,so please comment on it (good or critical).

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

In a message dated 5/27/01 7:55:15 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
writes:

<< Janos Prohaska and his brother.
According to Bob Burns in his book "It Came from Bob's Basement!" this Janos
dude was kind of a pain-in-the-ass. >>

Well, I don't know how the Prohaska bros. go the gig, but you can tell Janos
for me to fuck off back to Gilligan's Island!

Fox is thinking big box office bucks when the sign up the comedy directing
team of Bobby and Peter Farrelly to shoot a remake of Planet of the Apes. The
casting coup here is getting Jim Carrey to play a duel role in the film.

First, Carrey plays Commander Taylor, an astronaut whose solo mission in
space goes wrong, forcing him to make a landing on a strange remote planet.
Taylor then encounters an society where apes rule and man is a beast. The
apes are surprised that Taylor can talk, but rather than considering him a
menace, they treat him as a curiosity and relish his zany antics. He soon
emerges as a celebrity in the ape society. The whole thing turns dark when
Minister of Science Dr. Zaius (also played by Carrey, who apparently did not
tire of the elaborate makeup he had to endure as the Grinch) wants to capture
Taylor and put him in a circus where his "definate gift of mimicry" can be
exploited for financial gain. With the the help of two sympathetic
chimpanzees (Ben Stiller and Cameron Diaz), Taylor escapes and the trio
embark on a slapstick race to the Forbidden Zone where Taylor wishes to find
clues about to escape from the POTA.

A bit late to be crying over spilled coconut milk ...lil' buddy.

LordTZer0@... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/27/01 7:55:15 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
> writes:
>
> << Janos Prohaska and his brother.
> According to Bob Burns in his book "It Came from Bob's Basement!" this Janos
> dude was kind of a pain-in-the-ass. >>
>
> Well, I don't know how the Prohaska bros. go the gig, but you can tell Janos
> for me to fuck off back to Gilligan's Island!
>
>
>
>

Hey Matt,
No mention of semen, snot , faeces or any other body functions?
The 'kids' won't go for it.
Best,
KEN

Gee, Ben Stiller was a fan of Dr. Zauis in "Reality Bites". What changed
his mind?

Aren't the Farrelly Brothers a racing team?

- - - - - X

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2001 10:22 PM
Subject: [pota] What If?: The Farrelly Brother's Planet of the Apes


> Fox is thinking big box office bucks when the sign up the comedy directing
> team of Bobby and Peter Farrelly to shoot a remake of Planet of the Apes.
The
> casting coup here is getting Jim Carrey to play a duel role in the film.
>
> First, Carrey plays Commander Taylor, an astronaut whose solo mission in
> space goes wrong, forcing him to make a landing on a strange remote
planet.
> Taylor then encounters an society where apes rule and man is a beast. The
> apes are surprised that Taylor can talk, but rather than considering him a
> menace, they treat him as a curiosity and relish his zany antics. He soon
> emerges as a celebrity in the ape society. The whole thing turns dark when
> Minister of Science Dr. Zaius (also played by Carrey, who apparently did
not
> tire of the elaborate makeup he had to endure as the Grinch) wants to
capture
> Taylor and put him in a circus where his "definate gift of mimicry" can be
> exploited for financial gain. With the the help of two sympathetic
> chimpanzees (Ben Stiller and Cameron Diaz), Taylor escapes and the trio
> embark on a slapstick race to the Forbidden Zone where Taylor wishes to
find
> clues about to escape from the POTA.
>
>
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 5/27/01 10:54:40 PM Central Daylight Time,
mlccougar@... writes:

<< And LordT,I read an interview with Hunter in Starlog magazine.She says
they
"really" had to talk her into playing Zira in Beneath >>

I was quoting from her book. She said her arm was twisted for the second
film. That her character only figured in it briefly, mostly for continuity
and it did seem like poor sportsmanship no to accommodate them.

In a message dated 5/27/01 11:10:55 PM Central Daylight Time, MTotsky@...
writes:

<< but rather ideas that he has developed by him more or less
from scratch (Edward Scissorhands, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Ed Wood).

>>

I'd say in the case of Ed Wood it was less since it was a true story.

.htmlIn a message dated 5/28/01 12:13:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

Your timelines are pretty similar to what I wrote in "Ape Chronicles" back
in '93.

 Well I hadn't ever read the Apes Chronicles article that you wrote,so I'll
just say that I guess we have similar thoughts on this subject.And speaking
of Apes Chronicles,do you have any idea of when the next issue will be
sent?I'm getting a little ticked off at the delays.When I last emailed Terry
about this he said it was going to be out in February,which if course it
wasn't.(That was after he told me it was going to be out in December,which
was in response to a different email).
After "Battle" I have the comic books (most of which take place after
"Battle"

anyway) and the cartoon series.
Well if you mean the Jason & Alexander stories or the ones from the 90's
then I guess thats where we will differ.As I stated in these postings
before,personally I don't consider those to be Ape at all,so I wouldn't
include them in my timeline.But of course you did so I'll just have to say
we differ here.

This leaves most of the cartoon stuff in one large chunk, to be amputated by

those who don't care for it.

I don't really consider Return to be Apes either,so I wouldn't include it
either.
<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/28/01 12:46:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
LordTZer0@... writes:

I was quoting from her book.  She said her arm was twisted for the second
film.  That her character only figured in it briefly, mostly for continuity
and it did seem like poor sportsmanship no to accommodate them.

Oh,ok.I didn't know she even had a book.Does she have a lot on Apes in it?Is
it an older book?

<.html

Yes, and they transmitted the virus in a joint (smoked by Bill Clinton). He
did inhale this time.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: MTotsky@... [MTotsky@...]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 14:08
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] What If?: Oliver Stone's Planet of the Apes:

After being attached to this project nearly ten years ago, Oliver Stone
throws his name back into the ring and gets the gig. His version features an
astronaut played by Kevin Costner who gets sent into the future and arrives
on a planet where apes rule and men are beasts. The whole thing is shot with
a ton of MTV-style camera work that blends quick cuts, hand-held shots,
animation and other mind-numbing effects that are meant to make the viewer
feel as if they are watching Costner's nightmare unfold before their very
eyes. As he fights to survive, Costner clashes with a renegade ape militant
(Woody Harrelson). Eventually, he learns that he is back on Earth, but the
film doesn't end there. With the help of the Lawgiver (Michael Douglas),
Costner is able to find out how apes evolved from man: Not soon after he was
shot into space, a conspiracy plan was hatched by the CIA to assassinate the
President. Instead of taking him out by traditional means (gunshot), the
government decided to test an experimental virus on the President, but the
whole plan went astray. The virus did succeed in inflicting the Prez with a
disease that rapidly reduced him to a mental imbicile, but (unforseen to the
bad guys) it had the same effect on the entire human race as well. At the
same time, the virus had a reverse effect on simians, causing them to evolve
to the point where they could take over the world from a dumb-downed
mankind.
The virus is still around many centuries later and by the time Costner
learns
the complete truth about the conspiracy it has affected him as well. The
final shot shows him degenerating before the Lawgiver's eyes until he is
indistinguishable from the other humans on the POTA.

Luckily I had read the Curtis comic before I saw the movie but I was
shattered - my dad had to explain why Zira dumped the baby over the side. I
was shattered.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken & Heather Taylor [kentaylor@...]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 8:31
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [pota] Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?

Anyway, I was twelve when I first saw "ESCAPE" and I cried at the end.
Anybody else cry when they first saw it?

-- Rory

I was also 12 when I first saw 'Escape' on TV ( sometime in '75). Cry? I
was traumatized by the ending. I just couldn't believe that they kill
off my two favourite characters. You're right Jeff, they'd never get
that ending past the test audiences these days.
Best,
KEN

How about Zira's costumes in Escape - there were a few there I think.....

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Haristas@... [Haristas@...]
Sent: Monday, 28 May 2001 9:41
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] POTA trivia question

Okay, well no body wants to try answering my trivia question, so I'll just
do
it myself.

Which ape character in the POTA series has the most outfits?

I would say Dr. Zaius. In PLANET he's first seen in his long-jacket outfit,
then in his office with the jacket off and just in his brown tunic (I would
count that as another outfit), then at the end of the film in his 'man hunt'
or expeditionary outfit. THEN in "Beneath" he's in the expeditionary outfit
again, only this time it has added "glyphs."

I count that as four different Dr. Zaius "looks." More than any other
character.

Okay, opinions anyone. Hey, I'm trying to keep the discussion going here.
Cut me some slack.

-- Rory

In a message dated 5/27/01 7:22:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
mdownes@... writes:

<<
Jeff, you genius! Cornelius at the highest point on the ship, Kong at
the top of the Empire State Building...and they both get picked off
there. Woah. /Mez >>

And both were obviously dummies
brilliant

<< I like that Burton takes chances. >>

Yeah great. But I ask ya -- what is the good of having a director that takes
chances when the studio won't give him a free hand? The simple fact that
Burton doesn't believe in 'director's cuts' proves to me that he is a studio
boy. And as Don Corlione says . . . "That I do not forgive!"

<< Oh,ok.I didn't know she even had a book.Does she have a lot on Apes in
it?Is
it an older book? >>

It's an autobiographical cook book called, Loose In The Kitchen, Domina Books
1975.It has a couple chapters regarding Apes and several nice pictures of her
as Zira, which include her transformation in the make-up chair. And the
stories of the many recipes she has collected over the years, with a section
of the recipes n the back. Though long out of print I have managed to find a
few copies. And as well as a good read, it can be quite helpful when you're
stuck for an idea for cooking up something special.

In a message dated 5/28/01 2:48:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
whitty@... writes:

<< How about Zira's costumes in Escape - there were a few there I think.....

>>

There's a white outfit we didn't get to see. It may not be a costume. It's
under her cape in the museum, and can only be seen in stills. Since she
wasn't wearing when she was back in her hotel room I'm guessing it wasn't
part of her wardrobe and wouldn't count.

.html Kim Hunter's book is called "Loose In The Kitchen" and is billed as an 'Autobiographical Cookbook'.
Yes, you read that right.
It was published in 1975 and is 395 pages of Kim's career and favourite recipes ( including one for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches....her tip is to make it especially goopy).
There's a fair bit on 'Apes' w/ a few pictures ( only a couple I hadn't seen before).
I haven't tried any of the recipes yet. There's a couple that require bananas, so unlike Zira, Kim doesn't 'loathe' them.
Best,
KEN

mlccougar@... wrote:

In a message dated 5/28/01 12:46:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
LordTZer0@... writes:
 
 

I was quoting from her book.  She said her arm was twisted for the second
film.  That her character only figured in it briefly, mostly for continuity
and it did seem like poor sportsmanship no to accommodate them.

Oh,ok.I didn't know she even had a book.Does she have a lot on Apes in it?Is
it an older book?

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Hi Jeff! Everyone!

--- In pota@y..., "Jack Krueger" <williejoe@e...> wrote:
> Thanks, that was interesting. I don't think we've heard from you

Yes, I'm sure that was my first post to 'pota'. I love the Apes films
like the rest of you [yes, all five! It is hard to to say which is my
favorite beyond PLANET]. I joined up a couple of months back and have
been lurking, reading along.

I have been a big fan of Tim Burton over the years and was excited by
the annoucement of his POTA project. BUT....

It is going to take a huge leap of faith for me to see his film now,
especially after seeing the new trailer this weekend and having
watched all 5 original films on DVD these recent weeks. I think I'd
rather see Marky Ramone in the lead than that silly Marky Mark
Wahlberg.

Best Wishes!
J. Crawford

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/27/01 8:31:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> happyfortune@y... writes:

[snip]

> > local theatre. Back then, for you young readers, movies opened on
> > Wednesday, and the theatre was very busy from the first night

[snip]

> See my attached PLANET posters again to see how movies used to open

on

> Wednesday.

Oh, man! Those are very cool and, no doubt, very rare!
Thanks for sharing!

Best Wishes!
J. Crawford

.htmlIn a message dated 5/28/01 1:26:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MTotsky@...
writes:

Fox is thinking big box office bucks when the sign up the comedy directing
team of Bobby and Peter Farrelly to shoot a remake of Planet of the Apes.
The
casting coup here is getting Jim Carrey to play a duel role in the film.

First, Carrey plays Commander Taylor, an astronaut whose solo mission in
space goes wrong, forcing him to make a landing on a strange remote planet.
Taylor then encounters an society where apes rule and man is a beast. The
apes are surprised that Taylor can talk, but rather than considering him a
menace, they treat him as a curiosity and relish his zany antics. He soon
emerges as a celebrity in the ape society. The whole thing turns dark when
Minister of Science Dr. Zaius (also played by Carrey, who apparently did
not
tire of the elaborate makeup he had to endure as the Grinch) wants to
capture
Taylor and put him in a circus where his "definate gift of mimicry" can be
exploited for financial gain. With the the help of two sympathetic
chimpanzees (Ben Stiller and Cameron Diaz), Taylor escapes and the trio
embark on a slapstick race to the Forbidden Zone where Taylor wishes to
find
clues about to escape from the POTA.

You know they made an animated Saturday morning show of the Carrey film "The
Mask," and one morning I'm flipping around the channels and there is this
cartoon doing a take-off on "Planet of the Apes" with the cartoon Carrey
doing Charlton Heston.  It was great!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlMatt,

I haven't had the time to read and comment on all your "What if"s, but I've
often wondered what if other directors had tackled the original film.

Imagine PLANET if it had been directed by Alfred Hitchcock with a score by
Bernard Herrmann.  It would have been the second film he'd made with a Statue
of Liberty final (the first being 1942's "Saboteur"  Anyone here ever seen
it?)

How about PLANET as directed by Orson Welles?  I know they wanted him for
General Ursus in BENEATH, but what if he'd made PLANET and cast himself as
Zaius?  I think Heston would have liked working with Welles again, but then
imagine Welles leaving the picture and it ends up getting edited by the
studio and ruined.  Then thirty years later we get the original Welles
director's cut of PLANET.

I could go on with other old-time directors, like Ford or Hawks, but I gotta
go right now.  Later.

-- Rory<.html

What do you expect? They're apes, not rocket scientists. They weren't the
smartest folks in the world but they were
- - - - Jeff K.

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [pota] Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?


> In a message dated 5/27/01 7:22:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
> mdownes@... writes:
>
> <<
> Jeff, you genius! Cornelius at the highest point on the ship, Kong at
> the top of the Empire State Building...and they both get picked off
> there. Woah. /Mez >>
>
> And both were obviously dummies
> brilliant
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yeah? Well, where's Thompson's "director's cut" for "Conquest"? Some
directors just don't like 'em. For example, Bryan Singer ("X-Men" sucked but
he also did "The Usual Suspects") says he doesn't like the idea of too many
versions of movies around. It's just as legit a choice not to do one, unless
artistically you have to.

In fact, you could look at it another way: Burton gets final cut. If he was
a studio boy he would make it the way they want it then correct things later
a la "The Abyss". Maybe Burton gets it right the first time.

- - -
Tim's Mother

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 12:58 AM
Subject: Re: [pota] What If?: Burton Alternatives


>
> << I like that Burton takes chances. >>
>
> Yeah great. But I ask ya -- what is the good of having a director that
takes
> chances when the studio won't give him a free hand? The simple fact that
> Burton doesn't believe in 'director's cuts' proves to me that he is a
studio
> boy. And as Don Corlione says . . . "That I do not forgive!"
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Ken & Heather Taylor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 1:22 AM

Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE memories [was Re: Who Doesn't Prefer PLANET?]

Kim Hunter's book is called "Loose In The Kitchen" and is billed as an 'Autobiographical Cookbook'.
Yes, you read that right.
It was published in 1975 and is 395 pages of Kim's career and favourite recipes ( including one for peanut butter and jelly sandwiches....her tip is to make it especially goopy).
There's a fair bit on 'Apes' w/ a few pictures ( only a couple I hadn't seen before).
I haven't tried any of the recipes yet. There's a couple that require bananas, so unlike Zira, Kim doesn't 'loathe' them.
Best,
KEN

mlccougar@... wrote:

In a message dated 5/28/01 12:46:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
LordTZer0@... writes:
 
 

I was quoting from her book.  She said her arm was twisted for the second
film.  That her character only figured in it briefly, mostly for continuity
and it did seem like poor sportsmanship no to accommodate them.

Oh,ok.I didn't know she even had a book.Does she have a lot on Apes in it?Is
it an older book?

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

Welcome! And you don't have to like the new movie to
- - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <happyfortune@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 4:04 AM
Subject: [pota] ESCAPE memories & Burton project thoughts


> Hi Jeff! Everyone!
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Jack Krueger" <williejoe@e...> wrote:
> > Thanks, that was interesting. I don't think we've heard from you
>
> Yes, I'm sure that was my first post to 'pota'. I love the Apes films
> like the rest of you [yes, all five! It is hard to to say which is my
> favorite beyond PLANET]. I joined up a couple of months back and have
> been lurking, reading along.
>
> I have been a big fan of Tim Burton over the years and was excited by
> the annoucement of his POTA project. BUT....
>
> It is going to take a huge leap of faith for me to see his film now,
> especially after seeing the new trailer this weekend and having
> watched all 5 original films on DVD these recent weeks. I think I'd
> rather see Marky Ramone in the lead than that silly Marky Mark
> Wahlberg.
>
> Best Wishes!
> J. Crawford
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 5:10 AM

Subject: [pota] What if: POTA by different directors

Matt,

I haven't had the time to read and comment on all your "What if"s, but I've
often wondered what if other directors had tackled the original film.

Imagine PLANET if it had been directed by Alfred Hitchcock with a score by
Bernard Herrmann.  It would have been the second film he'd made with a Statue
of Liberty final (the first being 1942's "Saboteur"  Anyone here ever seen
it?)

How about PLANET as directed by Orson Welles?  I know they wanted him for
General Ursus in BENEATH, but what if he'd made PLANET and cast himself as
Zaius?  I think Heston would have liked working with Welles again, but then
imagine Welles leaving the picture and it ends up getting edited by the
studio and ruined.  Then thirty years later we get the original Welles
director's cut of PLANET.

I could go on with other old-time directors, like Ford or Hawks, but I gotta
go right now.  Later.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/28/01 8:58:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

> I have been a big fan of Tim Burton over the years and was excited by
> the annoucement of his POTA project. BUT....
>
> It is going to take a huge leap of faith for me to see his film now,
> especially after seeing the new trailer this weekend and having
> watched all 5 original films on DVD these recent weeks. I think I'd
> rather see Marky Ramone in the lead than that silly Marky Mark
> Wahlberg.
>
> Best Wishes!
> J. Crawford

Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot in this Burton film to leap over.  
Mark Wahlberg bothers me, too.  He doesn't seem to have much weight, but then
he's just beginning his career.  Twenty years fron now, POTA may be seen as
his breakout role or something.

After having seen the trailer many times, I'm starting to get really bugged
by that bald guy.  What's he supposed to be, a homage to that bald guy from
that "Star Trek" episode with the chick who tested for Nova?  I think the
episode was called "The Gamesters of... something."

And I'm still really worried the Baker make-up isn't gonna look so hot with
the actors using their real bottom lips instead of appliances.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/28/01 9:00:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

I heard that Fritz Lang was in the running to direct the original, director
of classics like "Metropolis" and one of Roddy's first movies ( I forget
the name).                          - - - - Jeff

Yeah, Fritz Lang directed "Master" Roddy McDowall in his first film in the
States, 1941's "Man Hunt."  McDowall did that film first because of delays
getting "How Green Was My Valley" rolling.  "Man Hunt" also stars Walter
Pidgeon and is about a guy who tries to kill Hitler and is then hunted by
German agents.  It is excellent.  I highly recommend it.  The end is
incredibly suspenseful.  McDowall only has a bit part in it as a cabin boy
who helps Pidgeon get back into England.  I wish I had it in my video
collection, I'd like to watch again now.

As for different directors doing PLANET, John Ford would have been
interesting.  We'd have probably gotten a lot more sky in those Forbidden
Zone scenes.  Ford knew the area well, and he might have gotten some of
Monument Valley in there.  Also, he directed McDowall in "How Green Was My
Valley" at the Fox Ranch, and there they would have been at the ranch doing
APES.  I often wonder what thoughts went through McDowall's mind as he stood
in that makeup during that hot summer in '67 and looked around at the ranch
he's acted in so long ago as a boy with Ford directing him.

If Howard Hawks had made PLANET we'd probably have a much tighter film with
over-lapping dialogue and the shootout at the end may have been built up
more.  I also think the Zira character would have been fierier.

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexander Ruiz

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:26 PM

Subject: [pota] POTA WALLPAPER!

http://www.moviemalls.com/moviewallpapers.htm

 

Planet of the Apes PC Wallpaper.

 

Very nice.

 

All the best and have a great weekend.

 

Alex

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

>Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot in this Burton film to leap over.
>Mark Wahlberg bothers me, too. He doesn't seem to have much weight, but

then

>he's just beginning his career. Twenty years fron now, POTA may be seen as
>his breakout role or something.

I recently saw him in "The Corruptor" with Chow Yun-Fat and I think he's
going to do a good job, now if he was going to be bouncing around in his
calvin's rapping the theme song THEN I would be worried... :)

Chad

Attachments :

À=!"# $ .

> The "Beneath" ending was a consiracy between Heston and Richard Zanuck.
> Apparently director Ted Post didn't know that until he saw the "Behind the
> pOTA" documentary. He expressed his outrage that Heston would selfishly
> champion that ending in "Apesfan" #2. Post hated that ending! (What

happened

> to the auteur theory?) - - - Jeff K.

That doesn't surprise me, the ending was just a let down... I have one
Apesfan issue, it's a special tribute issue with Roddy, also has a great
interview with Kim Hunter. Anybody know where I can get my paws on other
issues? I was REALLY inpressed with the one that I have.

Oooo also I was watching MTV yesterday and they did a commercial for some MTV
special called "The A-Z guide to Summer" or something like that (It is on
next weekend) and P is for Planet of the Apes... so I am wondering if they
are going to be showing us some new stuff from the movie.

Chad

He's a good actor and picks good roles, but I think he talks too fast in the
"Apes" trailer. - - - J.K.

----- Original Message -----
From: <DrZira3978@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 6:53 AM
Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE memories & Burton project thoughts


> >Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot in this Burton film to leap over.
> >Mark Wahlberg bothers me, too. He doesn't seem to have much weight, but
> then
> >he's just beginning his career. Twenty years fron now, POTA may be seen
as
> >his breakout role or something.
>
> I recently saw him in "The Corruptor" with Chow Yun-Fat and I think he's
> going to do a good job, now if he was going to be bouncing around in his
> calvin's rapping the theme song THEN I would be worried... :)
>
> Chad
>
>
>
>
>
>

Don't open any attachments from me as it could be a virus!!!!!!!!!

Lewis Pierson

----- Original Message -----
From: <DrZira3978@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] ESCAPE memories & Burton project thoughts


> >Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot in this Burton film to leap over.
> >Mark Wahlberg bothers me, too. He doesn't seem to have much weight, but
> then
> >he's just beginning his career. Twenty years fron now, POTA may be seen
as
> >his breakout role or something.
>
> I recently saw him in "The Corruptor" with Chow Yun-Fat and I think he's
> going to do a good job, now if he was going to be bouncing around in his
> calvin's rapping the theme song THEN I would be worried... :)
>
> Chad
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 5/28/01 10:07:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
DrZira3978@... writes:

That doesn't surprise me, the ending was just a let down... I have one
Apesfan issue, it's a special tribute issue with Roddy, also has a great
interview with Kim Hunter. Anybody know where I can get my paws on other
issues? I was REALLY inpressed with the one that I have.

They only put out two issues.  The last time I talked to one of the two guys
who put it out, he said the next issue will probably be on the internet only.

-- Rory<.html

Attachments :

Desired: Welder Education: Graduated from Des Moines Tech High School in Des Moines, Iowa in 1966. Work History: Employed at American Athletic, Inc. in Jefferson, Iowa as welder from 7/9/66 to 8/18/2000. Became certified through Iowa Central Community College in Fort Dodge, Iowa in 1997. References: 1) Rick Coover 913 W. Lincolnway Jefferson, Iowa 50129 (515) 386-8450 2) Pat Kurth 501 W.

--- In pota@y..., Lewis Pierson <lpierson@n...> wrote:

> À=!"# $ .

And &*ñƒÅ to you too.

Sorry, but smart folks don't run .exe files from strangers. /Mez

Lewis, sorry for calling you a 'stranger'! I thought you were a mad
bomber! :) /Mez

what happened was that I opened an attachement I got from someone I work
with. I thought it was a joke or something but i found myself in a real
mess.

Lewis

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mez Downes" <mdownes@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 2:21 PM
Subject: [pota] Re: virus warning!!!!!!!!


> Lewis, sorry for calling you a 'stranger'! I thought you were a mad
> bomber! :) /Mez
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 5/28/01 10:43:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

He's a good actor and picks good roles, but I think he talks too fast in the
"Apes" trailer.                           - - - J.K.

I think the APES trailer in general is too fast.

-- Rory<.html

.html <.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexander Ruiz

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 3:22 PM

Subject: [pota] Re: virus warning!!!!!!!!

Don't open any attachments from me as it could be a virus!!!!!!!!!

Lewis Pierson

Funny you would say that because some little smart butt tryed to send me a virus just a few minutes ago.

 

Long live Prohecysite.com...

And get get use to it..whoever it was.

 

Never try to send a virus to a computer genius.

 

Best,

Alex

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html <.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexander Ruiz

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 8:48 AM

Subject: [pota] Re: Re: virus warning!!!!!!!!

Believe me, it was not intentional!!!

 

Not intentional?

First you send it to the e-group, THEN you send it to me.

 

That's being unintentioanl TWICE.

 

I'm I missing something?

 

Alex

 

 

 

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html