Sorry about the incomplete e-mail.
I wouldn't call it a "good" review but interesting, and spot on for the most
part.
And it had me ROFLMAO with this . . .

"Wahlberg telling Bonham Carter "Show us the way out of here, and I'll show
you something that will change your world forever." referring to his
spaceship, but accidentally recalling his endowment in Boogie Nights"

I guess I wasn't the only one who had a Boogie Nights flashback at that line.

Eric Greene's review is in at www.africana.com . Good points. There's just
no pleasing some people. Can't we all just get ...an appreciation of
production design?

- -
- - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: [pota] Check out
http://www.africana.com/Utilities/Content.html&../cgi-b...


> Sorry about the incomplete e-mail.
> I wouldn't call it a "good" review but interesting, and spot on for the
most
> part.
> And it had me ROFLMAO with this . . .
>
> "Wahlberg telling Bonham Carter "Show us the way out of here, and I'll
show
> you something that will change your world forever." referring to his
> spaceship, but accidentally recalling his endowment in Boogie Nights"
>
> I guess I wasn't the only one who had a Boogie Nights flashback at that
line.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 8/28/01 1:45:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
LordTZer0@... writes:

Sorry about the incomplete e-mail.  
I wouldn't call it a "good" review but interesting, and spot on for the
most
part.
And it had me ROFLMAO with this . . .

"Wahlberg telling Bonham Carter "Show us the way out of here, and I'll show
you something that will change your world forever." referring to his
spaceship, but accidentally recalling his endowment in Boogie Nights"

I guess I wasn't the only one who had a Boogie Nights flashback at that
line.

Well, I meant it was a good review in that it was smart and, as you say, spot
on.

I especially like the "'authenticity' instead of allegory' line, and "Today's
summer movies and ideas are like Superman and kryptonite; the two just don't
mix."

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/28/01 9:50:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

 Out on DVD today is the 1977 version of "The Island of Dr. Moreau", with
makeup by John Chambers, somewhat reminiscent of his "Apes" work. This
movie scared me as a kid but it doesn't hold up as well as "Apes". History
almost repeated itself when it was remade again in '96. FX master Stan
Winston did that Marlon Brando version and at the time he was slated to
also do the "Apes" remake. "The Island of Lost Souls" from the '30's is
still considered the best cinematic telling of this tale.                   
              - - - - Jeff

You forgot to mention, Jeff, that "The Island of Dr. Moreau" was directed by
this dude named Don Taylor.  Anyone ever hear of him?   It's not a very good
film -- I think I read somewhere that Chambers told Taylor he thought it was
bad -- but it's okay.  However, I would highly recommend that you search out
1933's "Island of Lost Souls" instead.  The best horror films are black and
white.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlClick here: http://www.africana.com/Utilities/Content.html&
../cgi-bin/banner.pl?banner=Blackworld&../Column/bl_views_60.htm

Here's the link to Eric Greene's comments on the new movie.  In an e-mail he
sent me, he asked me to tell him what I thought of this piece.

If you would like to let him know what you think after reading it, write him
at:  eric.greene@...

I wish we could just get a message to Fox,  "Please make only smart APES
movies."

-- Rory <.html

<LordTZer0@...> wrote:

> << Did Miller do Thunderdome (worst movie ever - or close!)?
> If so, don't let him near Apes 3 >>
>
> I'm afraid so...
> He co-directed it with George Ogilvie,

I seem to recall reading somewhere that George Miller primarily directed the
action sequences.

Alan

SPOILERS AHOY!

Oh, you've all seen it by now.

Found this message on the rec.arts.sf.movies group and thought you folks
might appreciate it!

----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: POTA: Okay, the DEFINATIVE explanation for the ending


> Here it is at last, the DEFINATIVE explanation for the ending of Tim
Burton's
> "Planet of the Apes."
>
> Shortly after Leo disappears into the space-time storm, some friends back
on
> Earth (led by an astronaut played by Chartlon Heston) realize what must
have
> happened to him, so they mount a rescue. Unfortunately, they miscalculate
their
> trajectory and arrive AFTER the final conflict, and after Leo has left to
> return home to the past.
>
> By this time, apes and humans live in peace. Thade has undergone extensive
> counseling, and has reformed. He only wishes he had an opportunity to make
> things up to Leo. Leo's friends offer to take Thad and several others back
with
> them as ambassadors to Earth.
>
> On the way home, the would-be rescue astronauts receive a message
transmission
> saying that Leo's craft has been spotted, and is returning to Earth -- and
will
> soon land at Washington DC. Always the pranksters, Leo's astronaut pals
decide
> to use the time storm to arrive back home BEFORE Leo, and pull the
practical
> joke to end all practical jokes.
>
> First, they enlist the help of Thade and the ape ambassadors. Always up
for a
> good chuckle, the apes agree. The merry pranksters arrive before Leo, and
> explain everything to the local officials. Then, they make a light plaster
> "mask" for the Lincoln Memorial. Finally, they get the apes in position
while
> they hide, video camcorder at the ready, to catch Leo's surprised
reaction.
>
> Leo arrives, just as we saw in the film. Had the film continued past the
> credits, we would have seen that after the ape guards arrive, Leo's pals
leap
> out and yell, "Surprise!!! Gotcha!" Leo is furious, but finally manages to
> enjoy a good laugh at his own expense. All is well until...
>
> Later, Leo decides to get revenge. He travels BACK to the Planet of the
Apes,
> AFTER he left but BEFORE his friends arrive. To pay them back, he builds a
> light plaster mock up of the Statue of Liberty and leaves it where
Charlton
> Heston's character will find it....
>
> Hilarious hijinks ensue.
>
> Okay. That's MY explanation. Can anyone do better?

<LordTZer0@...> wrote:

> <<
> I thought "Thunderdome" was okay. I liked the kids. I have problems

with

> "Mad Max." Just too ugly a movie for me. >>
>
> Waaalker Waaaalker

Wasn't that Fozzy Bear?

Alan

Rory <Haristas@...> wrote:

> Well, I don't know about that -- It's a low-buget Italian horror flick

from

> the '60s. Some call the original POTA cheesy, but you haven't seen cheese
> until you see an old Italian Sci-Fi horror flick.

I actually saw the video of "Planet of the Vampires" in a sale recently and
almost bought it out of curiosity - in the end I decided against it. (Loved
the completely different "Planet of Vampires" comic though)

> PLANET has a 7.7 at IMDB. I wish more would go thre and give it a 10

rating.

So do I - I was at quiz on Sunday night and one of the questions involved
naming the top ten science fiction films according to IMDB. My stubborn
pride refused to let the question pass without naming PotA. Unfortunately it
wasn't there. My team scored six on that question and ended up missing out
on second place by a point. Bah.

Alan

<LordTZer0@...> wrote:

> Why is Lisa Marie's Nova listed in the credits on the IMDB as Senator

Nado's

> daughter? A. she's a chipette and he's an orangutan, and B. when Leo &

co.

> run through they're about to get down to some hot monkey love.

Never rely on the IMDB for 100% accurate information - a lot of it is
submitted by the general public and therefore often not totally correct.

Alan

"Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:

> Did anyone else get the similarity in the crane shot coming from behind

the

> "temple" to the Statue of Liberty shot?
>
> Even looked like Liberty's crown.

Absolutely. I assumed it was deliberate on Burton's part.

Alan

Attachments :

"Jeff Krueger" <williejoe@...> wrote:

> Is the POTA Chronicles an Australian book? I haven't seen it

British, I think.

Details, if they're of any use:
"The Planet of the Apes Chronicles"
by Paul A. Woods
ISBN 0-85965-312-9
Published by Plexus Publishing Limited
UK £9.99
US $15.95
CAN $25.95

It's another unauthorised effort, almost like a scrapbook of articles.
Features some new stuff and some reviews, interviews, etc. from elsewhere. I
own a copy (scanned the cover, attached) but haven't read it yet. I've been
informed that of this, The Unofficial Companion and Russo's book, Russo's is
the essential purchase.

Alan

I like this!!!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Maxwell [alan@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 29 August 2001 6:13
To: PotA
Subject: [pota] Fw: Okay, the DEFINATIVE explanation for the ending

SPOILERS AHOY!

Oh, you've all seen it by now.

Found this message on the rec.arts.sf.movies group and thought you folks
might appreciate it!

----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.movies
Subject: POTA: Okay, the DEFINATIVE explanation for the ending


> Here it is at last, the DEFINATIVE explanation for the ending of Tim
Burton's
> "Planet of the Apes."
>
> Shortly after Leo disappears into the space-time storm, some friends back
on Earth (led by an astronaut played by Chartlon Heston) realize what must
have happened to him, so they mount a rescue. Unfortunately, they
miscalculate their trajectory and arrive AFTER the final conflict, and after
Leo has left to return home to the past.
>
> By this time, apes and humans live in peace. Thade has undergone extensive
counseling, and has reformed. He only wishes he had an opportunity to make
things up to Leo. Leo's friends offer to take Thad and several others back
with them as ambassadors to Earth.
>
> On the way home, the would-be rescue astronauts receive a message
transmission saying that Leo's craft has been spotted, and is returning to
Earth - and will soon land at Washington DC. Always the pranksters, Leo's
astronaut pals decide to use the time storm to arrive back home BEFORE Leo,
and pull the practical joke to end all practical jokes.
>
> First, they enlist the help of Thade and the ape ambassadors. Always up
for a good chuckle, the apes agree. The merry pranksters arrive before Leo,
and explain everything to the local officials. Then, they make a light
plaster "mask" for the Lincoln Memorial. Finally, they get the apes in
position while they hide, video camcorder at the ready, to catch Leo's
surprised reaction.
>
> Leo arrives, just as we saw in the film. Had the film continued past the
credits, we would have seen that after the ape guards arrive, Leo's pals
leap out and yell, "Surprise!!! Gotcha!" Leo is furious, but finally manages
to enjoy a good laugh at his own expense. All is well until...
>
> Later, Leo decides to get revenge. He travels BACK to the Planet of the
Apes, AFTER he left but BEFORE his friends arrive. To pay them back, he
builds a light plaster mock up of the Statue of Liberty and leaves it where
Charlton Heston's character will find it....
>
> Hilarious hijinks ensue.
>
> Okay. That's MY explanation. Can anyone do better?

Thanks Alan

That's the only picture in the whole book, and it is and oil painting.

The book itself is, however, extremely informative. I'll scan some today
and send links.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Maxwell [alan@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 29 August 2001 6:38
To: PotA
Subject: Re: [pota] Research

<< File: potachrn.jpg >> "Jeff Krueger" <williejoe@...> wrote:

> Is the POTA Chronicles an Australian book? I haven't seen it

British, I think.

Details, if they're of any use:
"The Planet of the Apes Chronicles"
by Paul A. Woods
ISBN 0-85965-312-9
Published by Plexus Publishing Limited
UK £9.99
US $15.95
CAN $25.95

It's another unauthorised effort, almost like a scrapbook of articles.
Features some new stuff and some reviews, interviews, etc. from elsewhere. I
own a copy (scanned the cover, attached) but haven't read it yet. I've been
informed that of this, The Unofficial Companion and Russo's book, Russo's is
the essential purchase.

Alan

.htmlSince Fox usually announces a DVD release three months in advance, and it's
now August 28th, I'd say don't expect the new movie on November 27th.  More
likely now is a December release.

-- Rory<.html

.html Hey gang,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just learned that we lost John Chambers on Saturday.
His health had been failing for months and I guess it caught up with him last weekend.
I don't have all of the details yet, but I will forward them to those would care to know.

I shared many a great story with John every time we visited.
His life's work was an inspiration to me and the rest of the APEMANIA team.
I am proud to have known him and happy that we were able to show our appreciation
to him (and his influence) in the final years of his life.

Condolences can be sent to his wife Virgie "Joan" Chambers at:

Motion Picture & Television Fund
23388 Mulhulland Drive
Lodge Room 429
Woodland Hills, Calif. 91364-2733
 

God Bless you, John.

Brian Penikas
Apemania.com

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/28/01 7:08:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
apeman@... writes:

Hey gang, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just learned that we
lost John Chambers on Saturday.
His health had been failing for months and I guess it caught up with him
last weekend.
I don't have all of the details yet, but I will forward them to those would
care to know.

Thanks Brian.   Of course this news hits hard.   My condolence to his widow.  
He was a great man, and has left a wonderful legacy, not just of the work he
did, but to all those he helped get into the business and inspired.  

-- Rory<.html

Hi!

I read it. He makes some very good points!
He nails the Burton pretty good.

Best Wishes!
J.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> <A HREF="http://www.africana.com/Utilities/Content.html&../cgi-
bin/banner.pl?banner=Blackworld&../Column/bl_views_60.htm">Click
here: http://www.africana.com/Utilities/Content.html&
> ../cgi-bin/banner.pl?banner=Blackworld&../Column/bl_views_60.htm</A>
>
> Here's the link to Eric Greene's comments on the new movie. In an
e-mail he
> sent me, he asked me to tell him what I thought of this piece.

.html  
John Chambers'  Service will be held at

1:30PM Thursday, August 30th,  at the Lodge.

23388 Mulhulland Drive
Woodland Hills, Calif. 91364-2733
 

For those who would like to attend.

Brian

Haristas@... wrote:

In a message dated 8/28/01 7:08:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
apeman@... writes:
 
 

Hey gang, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just learned that we
lost John Chambers on Saturday.
His health had been failing for months and I guess it caught up with him
last weekend.
I don't have all of the details yet, but I will forward them to those would
care to know.

Thanks Brian.   Of course this news hits hard.   My condolence to his widow.
He was a great man, and has left a wonderful legacy, not just of the work he
did, but to all those he helped get into the business and inspired.

-- Rory
 

<.html

On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:38:50 -0700 "Jack Krueger"
<williejoe@...> writes:

> Speaking of George Miller, "Battle" reminds me a lot of "The Road
> Warrior" with the motley assemblage of vehicles (Class, can anyone tell

me

> what the school bus represents?)

A certain author reading WAAAAAYYYYYYYY too much into things.


Chris L.


PS- with all this talk about liking BATTLE, I may have to repost the bit
I wrote earlier in the year defending the film (presuming I can ever find
it again...).
____

.htmlI went to yahoo and looked up Return to the apes ,and many things came up.And
it mentions Filmation did the series.They went bankrupt in 89, and Hallmark
owns some of the series.They did star trek,But paramount owns that cartoon.I
think fox owns the apes animated series.so we cant write Filmation.If not we
need to Get a hold of Hallmark entetainment.Bryan<.html

.html I went to yahoo and looked up Return to the apes ,and many things came up.And
it mentions Filmation did the series.They went bankrupt in 89, and Hallmark
owns some of the series.They did star trek,But paramount owns that cartoon.I
think fox owns the apes animated series.so we cant write Filmation.If not we
need to Get a hold of Hallmark entetainment.Bryan
<.html

.html<.html

.html Thanks Brian. That is sad news. You were very lucky to have  known the man who impressed, amazed and influenced so many.
Best,
KEN

Brian wrote:

Hey gang,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just learned that we lost John Chambers on Saturday.
His health had been failing for months and I guess it caught up with him last weekend.
I don't have all of the details yet, but I will forward them to those would care to know.

I shared many a great story with John every time we visited.
His life's work was an inspiration to me and the rest of the APEMANIA team.
I am proud to have known him and happy that we were able to show our appreciation
to him (and his influence) in the final years of his life.

Condolences can be sent to his wife Virgie "Joan" Chambers at:

Motion Picture & Television Fund
23388 Mulhulland Drive
Lodge Room 429
Woodland Hills, Calif. 91364-2733

God Bless you, John.

Brian Penikas
Apemania.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html Yes they do. I made enquiries while I worked there as I was hoping to see it released after we did the TV series.
Best,
KEN

Michael Whitty wrote:

 I'm pretty sure Ken Taylor told me Fox does now own the rights to the cartoon.Ken?Michael 

-----Original Message-----
From: Kay53531@... [mailto:Kay53531@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 29 August 2001 14:37
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Return to Planet of the apes news
 

I went to yahoo and looked up Return to the apes ,and many things came up.And
it mentions Filmation did the series.They went bankrupt in 89, and Hallmark
owns some of the series.They did star trek,But paramount owns that cartoon.I
think fox owns the apes animated series.so we cant write Filmation.If not we
need to Get a hold of Hallmark entetainment.Bryan

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/29/01 7:57:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kentaylor@... writes:

Yes they do. I made enquiries while I worked there as I was hoping to see it
released after we did the TV series.
Best,
KEN Michael Whitty wrote:

I'm pretty sure Ken Taylor told me Fox does now own the rights to the
cartoon.Ken?Michael  


Yeah, I remember when the Sci-Fi Channel was showing it around eight years
ago (along with the cartoon series for "Fantastic Voyage," and "Journey to
the Center of the Earth").  The shows would end with the '20th Century-Fox
Television' logo.

-- Rory<.html

Gosh that's too bad. It is sad to see the great ones go, but I'm sure he is
going to a better place.

I'm sure he will get some sort of tribute at next year's Oscars. Hopefully if
Baker win's one for this year's POTA, he will dedicate it to John. He was
truly a legend in his field.

Matt

In a message dated 8/28/01 5:19:56 PM, alan@...
writes:

<< So do I - I was at quiz on Sunday night and one of the questions involved
naming the top ten science fiction films according to IMDB. My stubborn
pride refused to let the question pass without naming PotA. Unfortunately it
wasn't there. My team scored six on that question and ended up missing out
on second place by a point. Bah.

>>

So what were the top ten? I'm assuming Star Wars, Close Encounters, 2001,
Alien, and E.T. were there. What else?

Matt

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 4:08 PM

Subject: [pota] John Chambers joins Roddy, Maurice, ...

Hey gang,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just learned that we lost John Chambers on Saturday.
His health had been failing for months and I guess it caught up with him last weekend.
I don't have all of the details yet, but I will forward them to those would care to know.

I shared many a great story with John every time we visited.
His life's work was an inspiration to me and the rest of the APEMANIA team.
I am proud to have known him and happy that we were able to show our appreciation
to him (and his influence) in the final years of his life.

Condolences can be sent to his wife Virgie "Joan" Chambers at:

Motion Picture & Television Fund
23388 Mulhulland Drive
Lodge Room 429
Woodland Hills, Calif. 91364-2733
 

God Bless you, John.

Brian Penikas
Apemania.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 4:21 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] John Chambers joins Roddy, Maurice, ...

In a message dated 8/28/01 7:08:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
apeman@... writes:

Hey gang, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just learned that we
lost John Chambers on Saturday.
His health had been failing for months and I guess it caught up with him
last weekend.
I don't have all of the details yet, but I will forward them to those would
care to know.

Thanks Brian.   Of course this news hits hard.   My condolence to his widow.  
He was a great man, and has left a wonderful legacy, not just of the work he
did, but to all those he helped get into the business and inspired.  

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/29/01 9:11:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

My local Tower video has a display showing their top ten sales for the
week. In DVDs the original "Apes" was #3 (behind "Hannibal" and "Crouching
Tiger") and at Virgin Megastore the "Apes" VHS was #5. I've never seen
"Apes" videos that popular, even during the hoopla over the 30th
anniversary. A good note for John to leave on.

     
                                                                           
- - - - Jeff


This is the best news I've heard in what has been for me a very depressing
last month.  Thanks, Jeff.

-- Rory<.html

I finished my notes on "Battle" and will be posting them right after this.
I wrote them in an article format because I will probably put it on a web site
later, and it is long for a posting so I split it into three parts. The
first part is kind of an introduction. The second and most important part
is still long for a posting but I didn't want to split it up because it makes
a series of interrelated points. The last part has some additional comments.

Enjoy.
-Tom

Battle for the Planet of the Apes Notes - Part 1

A common characteristic of science fiction is that it often mirrors the
attitudes of the times. Battlestar Galactica mirrored conservative fears
in the late 1970's of a Soviet sneak attack. Babylon 5 mirrored the
conspiracy paranoia popular in the 1990's. Star Trek mirrored the liberal
optimism of the 1960's. And the Planet of the Apes movies (and TV series)
mirrored the liberal pessimism of the 1960's and early 1970's -- that
is, anticonservatism. Anyone who watches these movies long enough will
eventually realize that the villains in POTA are neither the humans nor the
apes, they are consistently the conservatives of each. Essentially, POTA is
one big bash of conservatism as it was perceived in the 1960's. Not until
the end of the last movie BATTLE does the tone shift from a dark liberal
pessimism into a Star Trek style liberal optimism. The 5 POTA movies of the
1960's and 1970's can be viewed as an epic saga, with the last movie "Battle
for the Planet of the Apes" as the climax and conclusion of the story arc.

One of the reasons that the Marvel magazines from the 1970's are priceless
for Apes fans is because, as was common in those days before VCRs, the movie
adaptations in them were based on the shooting scripts, not the filmed movies,
and thus reveal interesting gaps left out of the final filmed versions of
the shooting scripts, especially in CONQUEST and BATTLE. Although these
comics don't match the scripts 100% they are pretty close.

For example, the actions of both Aldo and Kolp (Brent in the script)
make more sense in the shooting script of BATTLE than the final movie.
In the script, Caesar, McDonald, and Virgil are forced to shoot their
way out of Kolp's underground bunker and kill some of Kolp's men. Thus
in Kolp's mind Caesar has already started a war. As for Aldo, the scene
where the gorillas all leave the council meeting is much more significant.
In the script this is a meeting of a legislature, and when the gorillas
leave the council Caesar awards their positions in the council to the
humans. Thus the gorillas have permanently lost power to the humans,
giving Aldo a much more significant motive for his coup attempt. When he
launches his coup he immediately shuts down this legislature, a common
practice in actual military coups which were especially common in the
1960's and 1970's. Next I'll cover a more important gap in the film
from the script, which makes the main point in the movie more subtle than
it should be.

Battle for the Planet of the Apes Notes - Part 2


The most important thing from the BATTLE shooting script that didn't
make it to the final film was an explicit reminder of Aldo's role as the
leader of the ape revolution in the timeline of Zira and Cornelius. This
would have eliminated the need for us to recall that fact from the third
movie ESCAPE, and would have drew more attention to the first important
ramification of the fact that Caesar never existed in the original timeline.
The effect of leaving this out made some key points in understanding both
the movie and the satire more subtle.

The context is that Caesar, McDonald, and Virgil are listening to the voice
and image of Cornelius talking in the archives section of the city and they
have already heard Cornelius tell about the Earth's destruction...


Caesar: All right, if history can be changed, then we'll change it!
We must!
Virgil: But how can we change something when we don't even know
what has to be changed?
Cornelius: ...there came an ape called Aldo, who didn't bark!
He articulated! He spoke a word which had been spoken
to him time without number by humans! He said: "NO!"
Caesar: I think, Virgil, that I do know what to change!

[Taken from Marvel POTA #24, pp. 22-23]


Aldo was supposed to have been the leader of the ape revolution, and
Caesar never existed in the original timeline of the first two movies.
Caesars very existence alters the timeline in a significant way.
When Caesar learns about the future destruction of the earth, he explicitly
makes it his goal, in both the script and the film, to alter the future and
prevent the Earth's destruction. Part of the reason for showing the
Alpha-Omega doomsday bomb, included in the extended version of BATTLE,
was to remind us exactly what the stakes were in Caesar's later "battle"
with Aldo. The title of the film was meant to have a double meaning
because Caesar's battle with Aldo was just as important as his battle
with Kolp.

According to Dr. Hasslein's theory, which Virgil parrots word for word
in his first scene in BATTLE, the timeline can be altered. Does Caesar
accomplish his goal of preventing the Earth's destruction at the end of
BENEATH? We know that Aldo would have killed all of the humans, but
Caesar at the end of the movie grants them equal rights with the apes.
The very last scene of BATTLE is just like PLANET -- a huge shock that
still makes perfectly logical sense. At the beginning of BATTLE the
Lawgiver is talking about evil men and sounding like his same old bigoted
self from the first movie. But if you paid close attention to the POTA
story arc, then at the very end of the BATTLE when you see that the
Lawgiver is talking to human as well as ape children, you realize that
everything has changed completely. This comes as a shock even though
it is the logical outcome of the preceding scene, 670 years earlier, in
which Caesar grants humans equality with the apes.


"Beware of the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn..."
- The Lawgiver (PLANET)

Why do we know that everything has completely changed? Recall that in
PLANET, the Lawgiver's influence on the ape culture is so great that
he is comparable to Confucius if not Jesus. He is the founder of the
ape religion and to contradict him or his Sacred Scrolls is heresy, which
is a state crime. In the original timeline in which Aldo was the apes'
first leader it was the Lawgiver who codified into scripture the
anti-human bigotry of the apes. This is the same scripture which Dr. Zaius
finally admits to Taylor is the reason for his fear and prejudice of humans.
The statue of Caesar at the end of BATTLE is meant to remind us of the
statue of the Lawgiver in PLANET and BENEATH, and tells us that Caesar
had as much influence over the Lawgiver in the altered timeline that
the Lawgiver had over Dr. Zaius and the other apes in the first two movies.
But in the altered timeline the Lawgiver was obviously no bigot. Instead,
he no doubt preached equality and tolerance among the species. This is
such a profound alteration of history that it almost certainly erased all
of the events of the first two movies -- including the Earth's destruction
as it happened in BENEATH.


"Then God in His wrath sent the world a savior..."
- The Lawgiver (BATTLE)

There is something larger going on in BATTLE than just the altered
timeline. There are hints (but no proof) of a divine force at work
to save the Earth from destruction. According to the Lawgiver at the
beginning of the movie, Caesar was a savior sent by God. Caesar is meant
to be a Christ like figure whose entire purpose of existence is to literally
save the Earth from Aldo's original sin. In ESCAPE and BATTLE we see
characters (such as Armando and Dr. Hasslein) openly wondering if they
are doing God's will or not by helping or hurting Caesar. In ESCAPE we
also see the US President wondering if history will compare him to Herod.
Caesar was injected into the time stream at _precisely_ the right time
and place he needed to be in order to prevent the Earth's destruction.
The spacecraft could easily have landed centuries earlier or later than
it did, but if it had landed only 10-20 years or so either earlier or later
Caesar would not have had the influence to change things that he did.
According to Dr. Hasslein, the backwards time travel of Zira and Cornelius
was made possible only as a side effect of the Earth's destruction.
There was no real reason the spacecraft had to return to the Earth in
the same decade that it left. Also, a divine intervention would explain
Dr. Milo's miracle of repairing, launching, and piloting Taylor's ship.

Another point I want to bring up is that part of the political satire
in BATTLE cannot be understood without first understanding what actually
happened in the movie and in the rest of the POTA story arc. To sum
up, we know that Aldo, an anti-human hardliner, was the leader of the
ape revolution in the original timeline. We know that the bigotry
ingrained in the resulting ape culture eventually led to the warfare
in BENEATH and destroyed the whole planet. We know that, because of
the evidence of the change in the Lawgiver, Caesar's existence altered
the timeline and prevented the destruction of the Earth as it happened
in BENEATH. We also have some clues that a divine force may have been
responsible for this, making Caesar into a Christ like figure whose
purpose was to save the earth.

Now the great irony of the story arc is that Dr. Hasslein and Governor
Breck tried so hard to kill Caesar, believing that by doing so they would
prevent an ape revolution from ever occurring. They never realized
the obvious, that in Zira and Cornelius' timeline the apes took over
without any help from Caesar. But we know that the revolution would
not have been prevented by killing Caesar. What would have happened
instead is that a hardliner, Aldo, would have led the revolution instead
of the more moderate Caesar, and the humans would have been a lot worse
off afterwards. Instead of things eventually working out all right
after the revolution, the humans would have had their worse case scenario
come true. The satire says that revolutions cannot be prevented by
killing off its leaders, revolutions can only be survived. If you kill
off the moderate leaders, the revolution will be led by hardliners instead,
and the aftermath will be a lot worse. As an example, if the South African
government had killed Mandela then the transition to black rule might not
have gone so smoothly for the whites.

Battle for the Planet of the Apes Notes - Part 3



[The Ape Races in BATTLE]

One thing that would have been very easy for the writers to screw up
in BATTLE was the behavior of the three ape "races". But they got
it down perfectly, in BATTLE and CONQUEST, and the writers deserve a
lot of credit for that. At first glance things seem wrong, the scientists
are orangutans and the chimpanzees are the leaders -- the reverse
situation of the first two movies. And why did the orangutans morph from
conservatives into liberals in BATTLE?

Actually the ape races in BATTLE are perfectly in character with the
other movies. The gorillas are good at physical action. The orangutans
are good at memorizing and absorbing information. Note that the
organutans are philosophers in BATTLE as well as PLANET and BENEATH.
Even in PLANET Dr. Zaius has the title "Minister of Science". The chimps,
lastly, are good at making discoveries and are less afraid of change than
the other apes.

Caesar, of course, is the leader of the apes because he led the revolution.
As a chimp it was easier for him to change the political status of humans
and grant them equal rights The scientists in BATTLE are orangutans instead
of chimps because the orangutans were good at learning human knowledge.
They didn't do original scientific research, what they did was absorb the
existing set of human scientific, cultural, and philosophical knowledge.
Thus in his very first scene we find that Virgil is parroting word for word
Dr. Hasslein's theory (from ESCAPE) about altering the future, without
giving him any credit for it. It is the orangutans who are most responsible
for the apes "aping" the human culture that we see in the first movie, and
BATTLE shows us some insight into this process.

In BATTLE the orangutans are liberals instead of conservatives because they
had absorbed more of humanity's knowledge than the other apes, were more
sympathetic towards humans, and had more respect for the prior human culture.
It's worth noting that even in the first movie Dr. Zaius, who knew about
the earlier human culture, said that humans had "wisdom" and had created
a "paradise". At the end of PLANET Dr. Zaius starts to develop a respect
for Taylor and allows Taylor to go free even though the soldiers could
have easily recaptured him and still had plenty of time to blow the cave.
When he realizes that Taylor doesn't know what happened he even gives Taylor
advice: "Don't look for it".


[War In BATTLE and BENEATH]

In some interesting ways BATTLE is the mirror image of BENEATH. The warring
parties in BATTLE are infant versions of the same two cultures that went
to war in BENEATH, but with the attacker/defender roles reversed. Also
interesting is that both movies have two characters arguing about war.
In BENEATH we see two conservatives, Urses and Zaius, arguing about war and
in BATTLE we see two liberals, Mandemus and Virgil, arguing about war.
Urses wants to launch an immediate attack, while the cautious Zaius wants
to hold off until they can learn more about what they are up against.
Mandemus is in favor of unilateral disarmament, while Virgil wants to
keep their weapons for self defense. The bombed out city reminds us that
Caesar's armory symbolizes America's nuclear arsenal. Virgil's argument
here is one of my favorite lines of the movie.

Mandemus: Now that the danger is over, I want to see these weapons
destroyed.
Virgil: The greatest danger of all is that the danger is never over.

Here Virgil is saying that America's military industrial complex, a common
term in 1973, is both necessary and dangerous. It is dangerous in the
sense that the more time that passes, the more this military industrial
complex tends to make us become like the enemy we are supposed to be
protected against. This was considered a major problem by liberals at
that time during the Nixon administration because of frequent disclosures
of abuses by police, military, and government officials. e.g. the CIA's
M-K Ultra project.

Unless you have seen all the movies many times over like I have, it is
likely you have missed the significance of Virgil's argument. It is the one
and only instance where POTA rejects a more liberal argument in favor of a
less liberal argument. Virgil is still a liberal but not an extreme liberal
like Mandemus. In other words, this is the one single instance in all
of the POTA films which admits that liberalism can go too far, as in
the case of advocating unilateral disarmament. In Mandemus' defense, he
had just witnessed a coup attempt made possible by their weapons. Strangely,
I think it was around 1973 that Costa Rica abolished its military in order
to prevent coups.



[Final]

As the final "chapter" in the POTA story arc, BATTLE does a good job
with continuity in that almost all of the character names originate from
the earlier POTA movies. Thus we have the Lawgiver and Cornelius from
PLANET, Mendez from BENEATH, Aldo from ESCAPE, and McDonald, Caesar, Kolp,
and Lisa from CONQUEST. Only the names Alma, Virgil, and Mandemus actually
originate with BATTLE.

One last interesting thing about BATTLE is that it has liberals and
conservatives on both sides -- humans and apes. We have Kolp and Aldo
as the warmongering racist conservatives, with Mendez, Caesar, McDonald,
Virgil, and Mandemus as the liberals. No other POTA movie has this
complexity except in a weaker sense the first movie, where Taylor holds
liberal views and Landon holds conservative views (until he gets
lobotomized). The effect of this is to reinforce the fact that since
there aren't really any differences between the humans and the apes on
the whole, there was never any justification for the prejudices we saw
through out the story arc. This is made especially clear when Aldo kills
Cornelius and commits the original sin of ape killing ape.

2001:A Space Oddysey was total.... how you say crap? Yeah, the begining is
interesting, but overall, it's quite possibly the most overrated film ever...

I'd laugh if 'Plan 9 From Outer Space' was in the top 10.

-Joe.

.html <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/29/01 4:22:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
CheeseGOTAS@... writes:

2001:A Space Oddysey was total.... how you say crap?  Yeah, the begining is
interesting, but overall, it's quite possibly the most overrated film
ever...

I'd laugh if 'Plan 9 From Outer Space' was in the top 10.

-Joe.

2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY  total crap?!!!!   Kid, you don't know what you're
talking about.

-- Rory<.html

Oh, but I do know what I'm talking about. Maybe it wasn't total crap, but it
wasn't so good to say the least. Maybe all the 'hype' I've been told it had
ruined it for me. It's not my type of movie. Infact, I think I could go the
rest of my life without seeing it. I form my own opinions about movies I've
seen.

HAL was interesting, though...

Also, Loc told me to read the first 40 pages of the book, so that might be
interesting too...

Whatever, I'll stick with Planet of the Apes, and I'll stick with my opinion
on 2001, thank you very much. ;)

Oh, I like how you used 'Kid' in context to my age. Or was it because I
don't like a movie that you find enjoyable? Have a nice day. ;)

-Joe.

.htmlIn a message dated 8/29/01 6:36:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
CheeseGOTAS@... writes:

Whatever, I'll stick with Planet of the Apes, and I'll stick with my opinion
on 2001, thank you very much.  ;)

Oh, I like how you used 'Kid' in context to my age.  Or was it because I
don't like a movie that you find enjoyable?  Have a nice day.  ;)

-Joe.

Yeah, it's all a matter of opinion.  People say "Gone With The Wind" is a
great film, but I don't care for it much.   "2001" is one of those movies
people either love or hate.  I love it.

And since I believe you're only fifteen, that makes you a kid, KID!

Take it easy,

Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexander Ruiz

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 2:55 PM

Subject: [pota] Re: DVD?

Since Fox usually announces a DVD release three months in advance, and it's
now August 28th, I'd say don't expect the new movie on November 27th.  More
likely now is a December release.

That's okay. I already have it.

John Chambers....Long live the King.

 

Best,

Al

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 3:53 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Going on the wagon

In a message dated 8/29/01 6:36:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
CheeseGOTAS@... writes:

Whatever, I'll stick with Planet of the Apes, and I'll stick with my opinion
on 2001, thank you very much.  ;)

Oh, I like how you used 'Kid' in context to my age.  Or was it because I
don't like a movie that you find enjoyable?  Have a nice day.  ;)

-Joe.

Yeah, it's all a matter of opinion.  People say "Gone With The Wind" is a
great film, but I don't care for it much.   "2001" is one of those movies
people either love or hate.  I love it.

And since I believe you're only fifteen, that makes you a kid, KID!

Take it easy,

Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/29/01 8:06:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

 "2001" is the perfect pace for people Rory's age. He likes to sit in the
rocker on the porch and watch it. "In my day they had characters, by
cracky!"

Just kidding.



Actually that's "lie on the couch and fall asleep until the stargate trip."   
LOL!!!<.html

.htmlWell, that was a pretty good, in fact a VERY good, argument for the worth of
BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE APES.  I can't argue with much of it because
you've spent a whole lot more time thinking about the movie than I've been
willing to.

However, for me I can't get past what's there in the film itself.  The movie
is a low-budget, somewhat shoody affair and when Roddy McDowall said in his
interview on the BEHIND DVD that he can't even remember it, I felt validated
for all my years of dismissing this 'final chapter.'  But, the fact that you
think so much of it doesn't bother me.  I actually think it shows just how
great the whole APES thing just is.  It's SF for those who like to think.

One thing I don't believe you commented on is why the statue weeps at the
end.  What's your explination of that?  I have to go along with Eric Greene's
ideas on that one.

Also, doesn't it bother you while watching BATTLE that the apes are wearing
the same outfits they wear in PLANET and BENEATH?   In 2000 years the apes
never change their style of clothing?

Another reason why I tend to dislike the sequels is because they do change
the world as it's presented in PLANET.   BENEATH altered the ape society
right away.  In the first film there was no gorilla army.  Just as in the
Boulle book, the apes only had a police force, that also had 'hunt clubs.'   
I like that.  If you think about it, why would the apes need an army?  It's
sort of silly.  And, yes, what happens in ESCAPE changes the future so that
you wouldn't get to where you were in PLANET.   The APES saga isn't a cycle
as some say, but open ended.   But, for me, I find pondering the past as it
was alluded to in PLANET much more interesting that than the future as it's
altered by ESCAPE.

One of the many things I wish Fox had done instead of the lousy thing they
gave us this year, would be to have done a prequel to PLANET, forgetting all
the sequels of the past.   Remember Cornelius mentioning 'carnivorous
gorillas' in the cave?  Man, what things must have happened during those 2000
years before PLANET.

-- Rory
<.html

Sad news indeed. A truly talented man and I offer my sympathy to his
wife.

I will keep John and Virgie in my prayers.

Thanks for letting us know Brian.

Andy

--- In pota@y..., Brian <apeman@a...> wrote:
> Hey gang,
>
> I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just learned that we lost
> John Chambers on Saturday.
> His health had been failing for months and I guess it caught up
with him
> last weekend.
> I don't have all of the details yet, but I will forward them to
those
> would care to know.
>
> I shared many a great story with John every time we visited.
> His life's work was an inspiration to me and the rest of the
APEMANIA
> team.
> I am proud to have known him and happy that we were able to show our
> appreciation
> to him (and his influence) in the final years of his life.
>
> Condolences can be sent to his wife Virgie "Joan" Chambers at:
>
> Motion Picture & Television Fund
> 23388 Mulhulland Drive
> Lodge Room 429
> Woodland Hills, Calif. 91364-2733
>
>
> God Bless you, John.
>
> Brian Penikas
> Apemania.com

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:08 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Going on the wagon

In a message dated 8/29/01 8:06:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

 "2001" is the perfect pace for people Rory's age. He likes to sit in the
rocker on the porch and watch it. "In my day they had characters, by
cracky!"

Just kidding.

Actually that's "lie on the couch and fall asleep until the stargate trip."   
LOL!!!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/29/01 8:48:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

I read in "Variety" that Fox predicts "Apes" will make $200 million
overseas once it hits France and Germany. Meanwhile, "Pearl Harbor" is
ready for a major assault in 500 theatres. It has to hit $200 million here
or someone must die! The beat goes on.

                                                                          
- - - - Jeff



Oh, those optimistic fools at Fox!    Well, here's mud in their eye!

Oh, I was just thinking of a good epitaph for Alex (when he's gone, of
course!  :))

How's this:   He never met an APES he didn't like
       
or, I guess, a bootleg DVD

-- Rory<.html

.htmlI am ready to send my letter.Bryan<.html

.html <.html

<<And since I believe you're only fifteen, that makes you a kid, KID!>>

I am 15, but please don't use my age to judge my character. I'm a very
optimistic 'kid' (Argh, you got me to use that word) so I'm open to all sorts
of ideas and concepts. I'm very sharp - Just ask MLC or Loc if you really
need to know, heh.

Thanks. ;)

-Joe.

Yes, Joe's a real cool guy. I don't believe in some of his views on movies
like 2001 which I am a huge fan of and Arthur C. Clarke and Kubrick but
everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I accept it.

Loc


In a message dated 8/29/01 9:26:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
CheeseGOTAS@... writes:

<< <<And since I believe you're only fifteen, that makes you a kid, KID!>>

I am 15, but please don't use my age to judge my character. I'm a very
optimistic 'kid' (Argh, you got me to use that word) so I'm open to all
sorts
of ideas and concepts. I'm very sharp - Just ask MLC or Loc if you really
need to know, heh.

Thanks. ;)

-Joe.

>>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:26 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Battle for the POTA (part 3)

Well, that was a pretty good, in fact a VERY good, argument for the worth of
BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE APES.  I can't argue with much of it because
you've spent a whole lot more time thinking about the movie than I've been
willing to.

However, for me I can't get past what's there in the film itself.  The movie
is a low-budget, somewhat shoody affair and when Roddy McDowall said in his
interview on the BEHIND DVD that he can't even remember it, I felt validated
for all my years of dismissing this 'final chapter.'  But, the fact that you
think so much of it doesn't bother me.  I actually think it shows just how
great the whole APES thing just is.  It's SF for those who like to think.

One thing I don't believe you commented on is why the statue weeps at the
end.  What's your explination of that?  I have to go along with Eric Greene's
ideas on that one.

Also, doesn't it bother you while watching BATTLE that the apes are wearing
the same outfits they wear in PLANET and BENEATH?   In 2000 years the apes
never change their style of clothing?

Another reason why I tend to dislike the sequels is because they do change
the world as it's presented in PLANET.   BENEATH altered the ape society
right away.  In the first film there was no gorilla army.  Just as in the
Boulle book, the apes only had a police force, that also had 'hunt clubs.'   
I like that.  If you think about it, why would the apes need an army?  It's
sort of silly.  And, yes, what happens in ESCAPE changes the future so that
you wouldn't get to where you were in PLANET.   The APES saga isn't a cycle
as some say, but open ended.   But, for me, I find pondering the past as it
was alluded to in PLANET much more interesting that than the future as it's
altered by ESCAPE.

One of the many things I wish Fox had done instead of the lousy thing they
gave us this year, would be to have done a prequel to PLANET, forgetting all
the sequels of the past.   Remember Cornelius mentioning 'carnivorous
gorillas' in the cave?  Man, what things must have happened during those 2000
years before PLANET.

-- Rory


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Alexander Ruiz

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 7:28 PM

Subject: [pota] Any coverage on Chambers on the Internet????

No story on Chambers from Makeup Artist Magaine on line. (the net)

I can't believe Makeup Artist Magazine doesn't have a cover story on Chambers.

I guess they worship the living....ASSHOLES!

 

Al

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Nice JFK lines in there! LMAO!!

Loc


In a message dated 8/29/01 9:36:55 PM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

<< You've gotta start thinking on a different level like the CIA does! We're
through the looking glass here, people. >>

.html <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/29/01 10:26:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
CheeseGOTAS@... writes:

I am 15, but please don't use my age to judge my character.  I'm a very
optimistic 'kid' (Argh, you got me to use that word) so I'm open to all
sorts
of ideas and concepts.  I'm very sharp - Just ask MLC or Loc if you really
need to know, heh.

Thanks.  ;)

-Joe.

Well, maybe when you're thirty you'll like "2001"<.html

<< Maybe it wasn't total crap, but it wasn't so good to say the least.
Maybe all the 'hype' I've been told it had ruined it for me. It's not my
type of movie. Infact, I think I could go the rest of my life without seeing
it. I form my own opinions about movies I've seen. >>

It wasn't crap, but it could be boring. The long drawn out scenes. That
endless trip down the tunnel. Maybe that was cool in '68 if you were a teen
on mushrooms. But I was seven, and it put me to sleep. It tends to do that
now. I thought 2010 was better. But neither one was as good as Apes.
Movies should make you want to pass the Cracker Jacks, not pass out!

In a message dated 8/29/01 5:54:47 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
writes:

<< Yeah, it's all a matter of opinion. People say "Gone With The Wind" is a
great film, but I don't care for it much. >>

Now that was a real bore!

In a message dated 8/29/01 7:31:00 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
writes:

<< One thing I don't believe you commented on is why the statue weeps at the
end. What's your explination of that? >>

It weeps because the series is over, and ending on such a lame film too.

In a message dated 8/29/01 7:48:46 PM Central Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

<< I read in "Variety" that Fox predicts "Apes" will make $200 million
overseas once it hits France and Germany. >>

American Cinematogrpher has a couple of good articles on Apes. One with a
really good full page close up of Rick Backer in makeup.

.html Alex, Did you write and ask the editor what's in the works?  Don't throw stones before you do your homework.
 
 

Alexander Ruiz wrote:

 No story on Chambers from Makeup Artist Magaine on line. (the net)I can't believe Makeup Artist Magazine doesn't have a cover story on Chambers.I guess they worship the living....ASSHOLES! Al
 
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html Yeah Alex,
No need to be so judgmental or aggressive. A fitting tribute should be expected, but it has only been a few days.

Brian wrote:

Alex, Did you write and ask the editor what's in the works?  Don't throw stones before you do your homework.
 
 

Alexander Ruiz wrote:

 No story on Chambers from Makeup Artist Magaine on line. (the net)I can't believe Makeup Artist Magazine doesn't have a cover story on Chambers.I guess they worship the living....ASSHOLES! Al
 
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html

Well, maybe when you're thirty you'll like "2001"

<.html

Hi!

--- In pota@y..., "Jack Krueger" <williejoe@e...> wrote:
[snip]
> I think Rory's right, the timeline is open ended, not circular. .
As for "Beneath", it could be a volunteer army to fend off the mutant
crisis. 'Nuff said?

I like the "open ended" timeline, as well.

I always thought that the hunt where Taylor and Langdon are captured
in the original film was a 'military operation' by the gorilla army.

Several posts recently have mentioned the school bus in BATTLE and
its 'meaning'. At the risk of sounding dopey, could someone please
explain that one? I've always thought that came from the so-
called "budget constraints".

Best Wishes!
J

.html <.html

I always thought the school bus was a nice touch. Anyway, Eric Greene
noted it in his allegory-hunting book and said represented desegregation (I
think?). Some have accused him of "reading things" into the material,
including "Entertainment Weekly". Personally, I like his theories and his
insights and think it adds to the canon. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <happyfortune@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:46 AM
Subject: [pota] Re: Half the "Battle"


> Hi!
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Jack Krueger" <williejoe@e...> wrote:
> [snip]
> > I think Rory's right, the timeline is open ended, not circular. .
> As for "Beneath", it could be a volunteer army to fend off the mutant
> crisis. 'Nuff said?
>
> I like the "open ended" timeline, as well.
>
> I always thought that the hunt where Taylor and Langdon are captured
> in the original film was a 'military operation' by the gorilla army.
>
> Several posts recently have mentioned the school bus in BATTLE and
> its 'meaning'. At the risk of sounding dopey, could someone please
> explain that one? I've always thought that came from the so-
> called "budget constraints".
>
> Best Wishes!
> J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 8/30/01 9:48:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
happyfortune@... writes:

I always thought that the hunt where Taylor and Langdon are captured
in the original film was a 'military operation' by the gorilla army.

Since PLANET is based on Boulle's novel, and BENEATH hadn't yet been made,
then if you read Boulle's book you'll find that the apes lived in a one world
government, had no armies only a police force, and that the hunting of humans
was sport.

And that's what I like about POTA!!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/30/01 12:47:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

 I always thought the school bus was a nice touch. Anyway, Eric Greene
noted it in his allegory-hunting book and said represented desegregation (I
think?). Some have accused him of "reading things" into the material,
including "Entertainment Weekly". Personally, I like his theories and his
insights and think it adds to the canon.        - - - Jeff

A lot of APES fans would like to fire his book out of a cannon.



-- Rory<.html

<MTotsky@...> wrote:

> So what were the top ten? I'm assuming Star Wars, Close Encounters, 2001,
> Alien, and E.T. were there. What else?

I can't remember exactly - most were pretty famous (I remember that "Blade
Runner" was one, because I don't like it, and I remember that "Metropolis"
was another, because I've never seen it). The ones that nobody guessed were
"Doctor Strangelove" and "The Iron Giant".

And to avoid having several off-topic conversations going on at once, I'll
just keep this question in the same email - what happened to the 2001 70mm
re-release? Is it cancelled or just postponed?

Alan

"Melkor" <melkor@...> wrote:

> Another point I want to bring up is that part of the political satire
> in BATTLE cannot be understood without first understanding what actually
> happened in the movie and in the rest of the POTA story arc. To sum
> up, we know that Aldo, an anti-human hardliner, was the leader of the
> ape revolution in the original timeline.

You know, people often forget that there was another Aldo before our gorilla
general chum... there was a chimp named Aldo in Conquest - the one that gets
beaten up in front of the protesters. I recall writing a story a few years
back that tied him in to the history put forth by Cornelius in "Escape"!

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to relate your thoughts on "Battle" - I
found this a very interesting read.

Alan

<Haristas@...> wrote:

> One thing I don't believe you commented on is why the statue weeps at the
> end. What's your explination of that? I have to go along with Eric

Greene's

> ideas on that one.

I can't remember what Eric's ideas were, but I'm of the opinion that it
weeps because the future is set, and the optimism shown is ultimately
futile.

The reason? I just love downbeat endings! The main thing that "Battle" did
wrong was to attempt a happy ending - bring back the bomb footage!

> Also, doesn't it bother you while watching BATTLE that the apes are

wearing

> the same outfits they wear in PLANET and BENEATH? In 2000 years the apes
> never change their style of clothing?

What do you expect? An ape's new suit?

> Another reason why I tend to dislike the sequels is because they do change
> the world as it's presented in PLANET. BENEATH altered the ape society
> right away. In the first film there was no gorilla army.

The story didn't require it, ergo it wasn't shown, but who's to say that
there wasn't an army, or at least a reserve of volunteers similar to Jeff's
suggestion?

Alan

Alan

Where is this chimp referred to as "Aldo"? In the script? The credits?
The novel??

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Maxwell [alan@...]
Sent: Friday, 31 August 2001 5:44
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [pota] Battle for the POTA (part 2)

"Melkor" <melkor@...> wrote:

> Another point I want to bring up is that part of the political satire
> in BATTLE cannot be understood without first understanding what actually
> happened in the movie and in the rest of the POTA story arc. To sum
> up, we know that Aldo, an anti-human hardliner, was the leader of the
> ape revolution in the original timeline.

You know, people often forget that there was another Aldo before our gorilla
general chum... there was a chimp named Aldo in Conquest - the one that gets
beaten up in front of the protesters. I recall writing a story a few years
back that tied him in to the history put forth by Cornelius in "Escape"!

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to relate your thoughts on "Battle" - I
found this a very interesting read.

Alan

"Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:

> Where is this chimp referred to as "Aldo"? In the script? The credits?
> The novel??

If I remember correctly...

I *think* he is named in the end titles, and I am also pretty sure that the
policemen can be heard to call him "Aldo" during that scene. Both of these
may need to be rechecked however... it's been a while!

I can't remember if it was in the novel or the comic adaptation or anything
like that, as it's ages since I read them.

Alan

In a message dated 11:44:45 Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

<< Well, maybe when you're thirty you'll like "2001" >>


I doubt it.

-Joe.

Found it. (Would have been quicker if I owned the DVDs instead of good old
VHS, mind you)

In the end titles, "Aldo" is listed as being played by David Chow. In the
scene I mentioned, the policemen repeatedly call him Aldo while they were
trying to get him under control.

Aldo
...er, I mean Alan

Here's the PotA special edition of SFX that I mentioned, especially for
Jeff:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1460774374

Note that I'm not endorsing this auction in anyway, I just happened to find
it on the UK e-Bay site and noticed that it gives a fairly detailed
description of the contents.

Alan

.htmlWell,i mailed my letter for the Return to planet of apes .And have friends
writing also we can do this if enough people write.it will happen Fox will
squeeze everything out on apes Just to cash in!Are letters will get the ball
rolling.When we mentioned the apes Tv series they totally forgot about it
until fans reminded them.We can ask Ken if they will do it.after all the
letters are sent.Bryan<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/30/01 4:12:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
alan@... writes:

And to avoid having several off-topic conversations going on at once, I'll
just keep this question in the same email - what happened to the 2001 70mm
re-release? Is it cancelled or just postponed?

Alan

It was cancelled!!!  GOD DAMN IT ALL TO HELL!!!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/30/01 5:51:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
alan@... writes:

I *think* he is named in the end titles, and I am also pretty sure that the
policemen can be heard to call him "Aldo" during that scene. Both of these
may need to be rechecked however... it's been a while!

I can't remember if it was in the novel or the comic adaptation or anything
like that, as it's ages since I read them.

Yeah, I think the cops yell, "No, Aldo, no!"

-- Rory<.html

To: pota@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.2
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:53:01 -0700
Message-ID: <web-8602622@...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

>Well, that was a pretty good, in fact a VERY good, argument for the worth of
>BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE APES. I can't argue with much of it because
>you've spent a whole lot more time thinking about the movie than I've been
>willing to.

It is simply a case of liking the POTA movies so much that I've watched
them all over and over and over. And when you see a movie for the 10th
or 12th time you notice things about it that you probably missed the 2nd
or 3rd time. You notice more things with each repeat viewing.

>One thing I don't believe you commented on is why the statue weeps at the
>end. What's your explination of that? I have to go along with Eric Greene's
>ideas on that one.

It is a single tear and it turns out that is a complicated question because
you can actually have three questions. (1) What is causing this? (2) Is
this a tear of joy or sorrow? (3) What was the writer's intention? Eric
Greene kind of implies that the statue was crying because Caesar's
supernatural spirit was showing his emotion through the statue, and I guess
that would fit in with my description of Caesar as a Christ like figure.
But I have a different explanation that makes better sense. BATTLE is
not the first movie where we saw a tear come from a statue. It happened
in BENEATH also, when we saw an illusion created by the mutants of a
Lawgiver statue crying a tear of blood. The mutants could perceive events
and create illusions over large distances. They did basically the exact
same thing in BENEATH, so they could easily have created this illusion
in BATTLE. I.e, The mutants, the possessors of the alpha-omega bomb, had
also developed a respect for Caesar by that time.

Was this a tear of joy or sorrow? Eric Greene says this is ambiguous
in the film but I think it is a tear of joy because there is overwelming
evidence in the film that the altered timeline was a radical improvment
over the original timeline.

At the end of BATTLE there are surely still individual prejudices, and
there is still no ironclad guarantee that the alpha-omega bomb will
never be used. But there is also little doubt of a monumental improvement,
because in the first timeline the apes' prejudice against humans was
permanently ingrained in the culture and religious dogma. No one except
Dr. Zaius and probably a few others knew what the humans had done, and
their view of humananity as the "Devil's pawn", came from the sacred scrolls
written by the lawgiver. To contradict the sacred scrolls and its
view of humans as pawns of the devil was literally a state crime.

The writers of the script, the Corringtons, meant to show an unambiguous
improvement in the timeline. The scene with the statue shedding a tear
was tacked on by the director in a failed attempt at creating some
ambiguity, but it simply didn't fit work because the rest of the film
was entirely (and intentionally) unambiguious. The effect, unfortunately,
was merely to obscure the message the writers intended to convey in the film.
In order to introduce real ambiguity into the movie the director as
a minimum would have had to rip out the Lawgiver character altogether.
When I read the Marvel adaptation of BATTLE I realized that the Corringtons
created an excellent script, but it was butchered in a lot of ways by
the director.

In my view Eric Greene has the most interesting of all the POTA books, but
the sheer amount of information in it means it is likely that he makes
occasional mistakes. Sometimes he gets things wrong, sometimes he gets
things only partly right, sometimes he gets only part of the picture, and
sometimes he goes too far. The fact that he's not perfect doesn't stop me
from thinking his book on the whole is pretty good. And if I had only one
POTA book I would want to have his book.

>Also, doesn't it bother you while watching BATTLE that the apes are wearing
>the same outfits they wear in PLANET and BENEATH? In 2000 years the apes
>never change their style of clothing?

Not exactly. The apes in BATTLE didn't have the (status?) markings on their
suits that they did in the first two movies. Maybe the apes had some
conservative quirk when it came to fashion? I have to admit this didn't
make a lot of sense, but still I liked the fact that the gorillas and the
other apes in BATTLE wore the same outfits from the first two movies because
I like those outfits.

But when you are criticizing these movies you also have to recognize that
the first movie had its share of problems like the rest. Why did all the
apes in PLANET wear the same racial sets of clothes? How could a civilization
with such primitive houses manufacture rifles and do brain surgery? How
come their dialect of English didn't change after 2000 years? I don't
think any of us would even recognize 2000 year old English, it would still
be a foreign language. e.g. If they went through periods of primitive
barbarism how come they still have the same 2000 year old word for "gun".
But these issues probably don't affect your enjoyment of the movie.

As for the budget on BATTLE, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it close
to the budget for CONQUEST, $1.5 billion vs. $1.8 billion?

>Another reason why I tend to dislike the sequels is because they do change
>the world as it's presented in PLANET. BENEATH altered the ape society
>right away. In the first film there was no gorilla army. Just as in the
>Boulle book, the apes only had a police force, that also had 'hunt clubs.'
>I like that. If you think about it, why would the apes need an army? It's
>sort of silly. And, yes, what happens in ESCAPE changes the future so that
>you wouldn't get to where you were in PLANET. The APES saga isn't a cycle
>as some say, but open ended. But, for me, I find pondering the past as it
>was alluded to in PLANET much more interesting that than the future as it's
>altered by ESCAPE.

I can understand why you like PLANET the most. It's a great movie, both
the story line and the satire.

>One of the many things I wish Fox had done instead of the lousy thing they
>gave us this year, would be to have done a prequel to PLANET, forgetting all
>the sequels of the past. Remember Cornelius mentioning 'carnivorous
>gorillas' in the cave? Man, what things must have happened during those 2000
>years before PLANET.

An anthology series set in the POTA movie universe might be pretty cool.
Prequels to both PLANET and CONQUEST would be interesting. The down side
is that you also run the risk of screwing up the Apes movie universe with
crap.

-Tom

.htmlIn a message dated 8/30/01 7:59:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
melkor@... writes:

As for the budget on BATTLE, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it close
to the budget for CONQUEST, $1.5 billion vs. $1.8 billion?

I'm sure you meant 'million,' but imagine what they could have done with a
billion!!!

-- Rory<.html

In a message dated 8/30/01 8:08:13 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
writes:

<< As for the budget on BATTLE, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it close

> to the budget for CONQUEST, $1.5 billion vs. $1.8 billion? >>

Even correcting to million the difference is negligible.
I really don't think a little over a quater million would make the movie much
better.

>> I *think* he is named in the end titles, and I am also pretty sure that the
>> policemen can be heard to call him "Aldo" during that scene. Both of these
>> may need to be rechecked however... it's been a while!
>>
>> I can't remember if it was in the novel or the comic adaptation or anything
>> like that, as it's ages since I read them.
>>
>>
>
>Yeah, I think the cops yell, "No, Aldo, no!"
>
>-- Rory

This is a case where the writer's script was screwed up by the directors
again. In the Marvel adaptation, and the script, and the book, Aldo
is a gorilla in CONQUEST, not a chimp. He was meant to be an important
character in the movie, and is the first ape Caesar meets. But some of his
scenes were cut or given to other characters. He is indeed the same
character in the film that the policemen beat and you can hear them
shout "No Aldo No" at him. That incident started when a human waiter
on strike throws a rock at him, mistaking Aldo for a slave scab waiter
instead of the messenger ape he was. In the script he is also present in
the restaurant and his owner shouts "No Aldo No!" at him there.

When the Corringtons wrote the script for BATTLE they presumably had the
scripts for CONQUEST and ESCAPE for reference. They didn't know that
Aldo was turned from a gorilla into a chimp in the CONQUEST film, so that
when the teacher says "No Aldo No!" in BATTLE, we are supposed to be reminded
of Aldo's treatment in CONQUEST.

-Tom

.html <.html

Attachments :

Here's some of the pics from Memphis.

Yeah what's the address for letters to Fox.
I'd like to write.

I really enjoyed this essay!

Thanks Alan, that looks like a must have. - - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: "PotA" <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: [pota] SFX Special Edition


> Here's the PotA special edition of SFX that I mentioned, especially for
> Jeff:
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1460774374
>
> Note that I'm not endorsing this auction in anyway, I just happened to
find
> it on the UK e-Bay site and noticed that it gives a fairly detailed
> description of the contents.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, they call him Aldo by name in that "Conquest" scene. He's also a
collaborator with Caesar in the "Conquest" novel. Come to think of it, Lou
Wagner told me he was supposed to have a big role in "Conquest" as Caesar's
collaborator, basically a second lead. But that got eliminated. Maybe he was
going to play Aldo. Wouldn't that be cool? Lucius as Aldo?

- - -
- Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] Aldo


> "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:
> > Where is this chimp referred to as "Aldo"? In the script? The credits?
> > The novel??
>
> If I remember correctly...
>
> I *think* he is named in the end titles, and I am also pretty sure that
the
> policemen can be heard to call him "Aldo" during that scene. Both of these
> may need to be rechecked however... it's been a while!
>
> I can't remember if it was in the novel or the comic adaptation or
anything
> like that, as it's ages since I read them.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I've always assumed the end of "Battle" is a tear of sorrow because the
other movies end downbeat. I don't think a statue would bother with a tear
of joy. But the Lawgiver is more benevolent than in "Planet" and "Beneath".
Is he like Darth Vader and will turn to the dark side? Wasn't there a comic
book that dealt with the Lawgiver? Or is the John Huston Lawgiver just one
of many? - - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] Battle for the POTA (part 3)


> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.2
> Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 16:53:01 -0700
> Message-ID: <web-8602622@...>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> >Well, that was a pretty good, in fact a VERY good, argument for the worth
of
> >BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE APES. I can't argue with much of it because
> >you've spent a whole lot more time thinking about the movie than I've
been
> >willing to.
>
> It is simply a case of liking the POTA movies so much that I've watched
> them all over and over and over. And when you see a movie for the 10th
> or 12th time you notice things about it that you probably missed the 2nd
> or 3rd time. You notice more things with each repeat viewing.
>
>
> >One thing I don't believe you commented on is why the statue weeps at the
> >end. What's your explination of that? I have to go along with Eric
Greene's
> >ideas on that one.
>
> It is a single tear and it turns out that is a complicated question
because
> you can actually have three questions. (1) What is causing this? (2) Is
> this a tear of joy or sorrow? (3) What was the writer's intention? Eric
> Greene kind of implies that the statue was crying because Caesar's
> supernatural spirit was showing his emotion through the statue, and I
guess
> that would fit in with my description of Caesar as a Christ like figure.
> But I have a different explanation that makes better sense. BATTLE is
> not the first movie where we saw a tear come from a statue. It happened
> in BENEATH also, when we saw an illusion created by the mutants of a
> Lawgiver statue crying a tear of blood. The mutants could perceive events
> and create illusions over large distances. They did basically the exact
> same thing in BENEATH, so they could easily have created this illusion
> in BATTLE. I.e, The mutants, the possessors of the alpha-omega bomb, had
> also developed a respect for Caesar by that time.
>
> Was this a tear of joy or sorrow? Eric Greene says this is ambiguous
> in the film but I think it is a tear of joy because there is overwelming
> evidence in the film that the altered timeline was a radical improvment
> over the original timeline.
>
> At the end of BATTLE there are surely still individual prejudices, and
> there is still no ironclad guarantee that the alpha-omega bomb will
> never be used. But there is also little doubt of a monumental
improvement,
> because in the first timeline the apes' prejudice against humans was
> permanently ingrained in the culture and religious dogma. No one except
> Dr. Zaius and probably a few others knew what the humans had done, and
> their view of humananity as the "Devil's pawn", came from the sacred
scrolls
> written by the lawgiver. To contradict the sacred scrolls and its
> view of humans as pawns of the devil was literally a state crime.
>
> The writers of the script, the Corringtons, meant to show an unambiguous
> improvement in the timeline. The scene with the statue shedding a tear
> was tacked on by the director in a failed attempt at creating some
> ambiguity, but it simply didn't fit work because the rest of the film
> was entirely (and intentionally) unambiguious. The effect, unfortunately,
> was merely to obscure the message the writers intended to convey in the
film.
> In order to introduce real ambiguity into the movie the director as
> a minimum would have had to rip out the Lawgiver character altogether.
> When I read the Marvel adaptation of BATTLE I realized that the
Corringtons
> created an excellent script, but it was butchered in a lot of ways by
> the director.
>
> In my view Eric Greene has the most interesting of all the POTA books, but
> the sheer amount of information in it means it is likely that he makes
> occasional mistakes. Sometimes he gets things wrong, sometimes he gets
> things only partly right, sometimes he gets only part of the picture, and
> sometimes he goes too far. The fact that he's not perfect doesn't stop me
> from thinking his book on the whole is pretty good. And if I had only one
> POTA book I would want to have his book.
>
>
>
> >Also, doesn't it bother you while watching BATTLE that the apes are
wearing
> >the same outfits they wear in PLANET and BENEATH? In 2000 years the
apes
> >never change their style of clothing?
>
> Not exactly. The apes in BATTLE didn't have the (status?) markings on
their
> suits that they did in the first two movies. Maybe the apes had some
> conservative quirk when it came to fashion? I have to admit this didn't
> make a lot of sense, but still I liked the fact that the gorillas and the
> other apes in BATTLE wore the same outfits from the first two movies
because
> I like those outfits.
>
> But when you are criticizing these movies you also have to recognize that
> the first movie had its share of problems like the rest. Why did all the
> apes in PLANET wear the same racial sets of clothes? How could a
civilization
> with such primitive houses manufacture rifles and do brain surgery? How
> come their dialect of English didn't change after 2000 years? I don't
> think any of us would even recognize 2000 year old English, it would still
> be a foreign language. e.g. If they went through periods of primitive
> barbarism how come they still have the same 2000 year old word for "gun".
> But these issues probably don't affect your enjoyment of the movie.
>
> As for the budget on BATTLE, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it close
> to the budget for CONQUEST, $1.5 billion vs. $1.8 billion?
>
>
> >Another reason why I tend to dislike the sequels is because they do
change
> >the world as it's presented in PLANET. BENEATH altered the ape society
> >right away. In the first film there was no gorilla army. Just as in the
> >Boulle book, the apes only had a police force, that also had 'hunt
clubs.'
> >I like that. If you think about it, why would the apes need an army?
It's
> >sort of silly. And, yes, what happens in ESCAPE changes the future so
that
> >you wouldn't get to where you were in PLANET. The APES saga isn't a
cycle
> >as some say, but open ended. But, for me, I find pondering the past as
it
> >was alluded to in PLANET much more interesting that than the future as
it's
> >altered by ESCAPE.
>
> I can understand why you like PLANET the most. It's a great movie, both
> the story line and the satire.
>
>
> >One of the many things I wish Fox had done instead of the lousy thing
they
> >gave us this year, would be to have done a prequel to PLANET, forgetting
all
> >the sequels of the past. Remember Cornelius mentioning 'carnivorous
> >gorillas' in the cave? Man, what things must have happened during those
2000
> >years before PLANET.
>
> An anthology series set in the POTA movie universe might be pretty cool.
> Prequels to both PLANET and CONQUEST would be interesting. The down side
> is that you also run the risk of screwing up the Apes movie universe with
> crap.
>
> -Tom
>

I think Aldo was made a gorilla in "Conquest" after the fact. Both the
comic and the novelization were done after "Battle" was produced and Aldo
was established as a gorilla in "Battle". I think it was intentional that
Aldo is beaten up and silenced in "Conquest" as a sly way of playing with
the history as established in "Escape" (for those who picked up on it. I'm
not sure why they decided to make Aldo a gorilla in "Battle".


- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:45 PM
Subject: [pota] Aldo in CONQUEST


>
> >> I *think* he is named in the end titles, and I am also pretty sure that
the
> >> policemen can be heard to call him "Aldo" during that scene. Both of
these
> >> may need to be rechecked however... it's been a while!
> >>
> >> I can't remember if it was in the novel or the comic adaptation or
anything
> >> like that, as it's ages since I read them.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Yeah, I think the cops yell, "No, Aldo, no!"
> >
> >-- Rory
>
>
> This is a case where the writer's script was screwed up by the directors
> again. In the Marvel adaptation, and the script, and the book, Aldo
> is a gorilla in CONQUEST, not a chimp. He was meant to be an important
> character in the movie, and is the first ape Caesar meets. But some of his
> scenes were cut or given to other characters. He is indeed the same
> character in the film that the policemen beat and you can hear them
> shout "No Aldo No" at him. That incident started when a human waiter
> on strike throws a rock at him, mistaking Aldo for a slave scab waiter
> instead of the messenger ape he was. In the script he is also present in
> the restaurant and his owner shouts "No Aldo No!" at him there.
>
> When the Corringtons wrote the script for BATTLE they presumably had the
> scripts for CONQUEST and ESCAPE for reference. They didn't know that
> Aldo was turned from a gorilla into a chimp in the CONQUEST film, so that
> when the teacher says "No Aldo No!" in BATTLE, we are supposed to be
reminded
> of Aldo's treatment in CONQUEST.
>
> -Tom
>
>
>

Paul Dehn was the sole writer on "Conquest" and was good friends with
Arthur Jacobs (staying at his house when he was in L.A. to write the
scripts) so I'm sure he made his intentions known to Jacobs. There were a
lot of changes made on "Conquest" that I don't think have been fully
addressed in interviews. - - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:45 PM
Subject: [pota] Aldo in CONQUEST


>
> >> I *think* he is named in the end titles, and I am also pretty sure that
the
> >> policemen can be heard to call him "Aldo" during that scene. Both of
these
> >> may need to be rechecked however... it's been a while!
> >>
> >> I can't remember if it was in the novel or the comic adaptation or
anything
> >> like that, as it's ages since I read them.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Yeah, I think the cops yell, "No, Aldo, no!"
> >
> >-- Rory
>
>
> This is a case where the writer's script was screwed up by the directors
> again. In the Marvel adaptation, and the script, and the book, Aldo
> is a gorilla in CONQUEST, not a chimp. He was meant to be an important
> character in the movie, and is the first ape Caesar meets. But some of his
> scenes were cut or given to other characters. He is indeed the same
> character in the film that the policemen beat and you can hear them
> shout "No Aldo No" at him. That incident started when a human waiter
> on strike throws a rock at him, mistaking Aldo for a slave scab waiter
> instead of the messenger ape he was. In the script he is also present in
> the restaurant and his owner shouts "No Aldo No!" at him there.
>
> When the Corringtons wrote the script for BATTLE they presumably had the
> scripts for CONQUEST and ESCAPE for reference. They didn't know that
> Aldo was turned from a gorilla into a chimp in the CONQUEST film, so that
> when the teacher says "No Aldo No!" in BATTLE, we are supposed to be
reminded
> of Aldo's treatment in CONQUEST.
>
> -Tom
>
>
>

At movieheadlines.net Wahlberg reiterates he won't do a sequel without
Burton and sites what happened to the "Batman" movies post-Burton. However,
the site calls a sequel "inevitable".

- -
- - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:38 AM
Subject: [pota] fest pics


>
> Here's some of the pics from Memphis.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

POTA still in the top ten, at # 10. And at 6th for the year, which is not
too shabby. Just 10.8 Mil behind # 5 JPIII. This is the last big weekend of
the Summer season. Let's pull the teeth on that monster. If you've even
considered seeing POTA again, this is the weekend to do it! If the sequel
doesn't happen, it may be the last time you ever as a POTA movie on the big
screen. Let's face it, Fox is dense. Show them a clear message that Apes
can be a big draw. Okay that's all the pep talk I'm going to give a mediocre
big budget B blockbuster. But I'm still going again anyway.

.htmlIn a message dated 8/31/01 4:44:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LordTZer0@... writes:

Yeah what's the address for letters to Fox.  
I'd like to write.

I have been sent this e-mail address from Fox Broadcasting:

foxmovies@...

Now, I haven't sent anything yet, and I don't know if this is the studio or
the home video division.

BUT. . . it's worth a try.  Let the e-mail requests commence.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/31/01 1:49:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

At movieheadlines.net Wahlberg reiterates he won't do a sequel without
Burton and sites what happened to the "Batman" movies post-Burton. However,
the site calls a sequel "inevitable".

                                                                       - -
- - Jeff

Oh, what do they know?!!

-- Rory

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/31/01 1:23:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
williejoe@... writes:

 I think Aldo was made a gorilla in "Conquest" after the fact. Both the
comic and the novelization were done after "Battle" was produced and Aldo
was established as a gorilla in "Battle". I think it was intentional that
Aldo is beaten up and silenced in "Conquest" as a sly way of playing with
the history as established in "Escape" (for those who picked up on it. I'm
not sure why they decided to make Aldo a gorilla in "Battle".

                                                                           
     - - - Jeff

Who has a copy of the first or second drafts of the CONQUEST script?

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 8/31/01 2:04:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
LordTZer0@... writes:

POTA still in the top ten, at # 10.  And at 6th for the year, which is not
too shabby.  Just 10.8 Mil behind # 5 JPIII.  This is the last big weekend
of
the Summer season.  Let's pull the teeth on that monster.  If you've even
considered seeing POTA again, this is the weekend to do it!  If the sequel
doesn't happen, it may be the last time you ever as a POTA movie on the big
screen.  Let's face it, Fox is dense.  Show them a clear message that Apes
can be a big draw.  Okay that's all the pep talk I'm going to give a
mediocre
big budget B blockbuster.  But I'm still going again anyway.

POTA was #9 on Wednesday, T!      I just don't want to go see it again -- I'd
rather wait for the DVD.  Fox will get more money from me then.

-- Rory<.html