.html

Hello Tony, Want the last hint for Autumn? Get the Autumm Hint! GO TO: http://www.CrushLink.com/autumnhint.php3 Have fun! Sincerely, The Crush Master --- PS. We thought you'd like this opportunity since you're a CrushLink user; you can block further messages @ http://www.CrushLink.com/block.php3

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/2001 3:53:20 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

I usually attempt to:

(1) edit the text I am responding to so it consists of the part of that text I am referring to

(2) change the title so it makes sense ( most of the time this group can go for weeks with the heading "POTA 2001" while the topic has changed more than once!!!).

In reference to what you said above,that is true. I mean I have noticed that you do that, and I have always liked that fact. It makes following the postings SO much easier, and it makes the postings actually make sense.
Obviously, there will be times I am too tired or busy to do this but I agree it is something we should all attempt to do.
And yes, there are times that it will not be done for the reasons you stated. But I am glad to know you will try to do so, and like I said, I'm sure going to try to as well.

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----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 10:50 AM

Subject: Re: [pota] POTA Chronicles

In a message dated 11/24/2001 10:25:35 AM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes

Half the book is a

straight reprint of "Cinefantastique" (which is good if you don't have that

issue but not exactly inventive). And what little writing the author does is
bland and uninvolving. At least "Unofficial" is actually by the author and
he shows some enthusiasm for the subject.

I cannot agree. To me "Unofficial" is just a slapped together attempt to cash in and make a quick buck (I'm getting the feeling you feel that way about "POTA Chronicles", and I can't say I'd disagree with you on that one.) However, if you think reading about "Magilla Gorilla" or "Lancelot Link" is better than reading McDowall's (reprinted) interview, more power to you. And as far as enthusiasm by Hofstede, I certainly don't see it. To me the book reads as if he were given an assignment in school, and this is what he came up with. It's a cash in on the hype book all the way. There are some mistakes but they
all have those, including Russo's. "Unofficial" is well organized,
comprehensive and fun. Well, it's not anything earth shattering, and it sure doesn't say anything that hasn't been written before. I know you'll say "Neither does 'Chronicles' ", and I did give you that point already. Both books are what they are, and neither is anything great. By the way, you mentioned that "At least 'Unofficial' had pictures in it..." Are you so enthused by those pictures because you're featured in some of them??J/K!!! Russo's is the best, then "Unoficial", then "Chronicles". I'd switch "Chronicles" and "Unofficial" around, but yeah, I'll agree with you that of the lot, Russo's is the best.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

That's one thing I will say, "Unofficial Companion" is overpriced. For a
couple of bucks more you can get Russo's book. To date I would say the
Russo, Greene and Sauseville trio make up a fine collection and the others
are a judgement call.

- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken & Heather Taylor" <kentaylor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] POTA Chronicles


> Yeah, I'm STILL waiting for my copy to show up from Amazon. But I do have
the
> other books. I agree with most of the comments posted already. I think
> overall, Russo's book is the most professional of the bunch so far,
obviously
> a labour of love and some amazing pictures. The Unofficial companion
brought
> to you by the author of 'The Dukes of Hazard Unofficial companion"..and
that
> should be your first warning ) is O.K but there are too many mistakes and
> using a shot of Heston between takes on Ben Hur and saying it was from
POTA is
> just inexcusable. Also, the type is spread out as to make the book
thicker. It
> probably could have been half that size. I guess they have to make it a
> certain amount of pages to justify the cover price? I can't complain too
much,
> as the author did send me a complimentary copy as I responded to his
questions
> in the fandom section. Ape Chronicles has a nice illustrated cover but
really
> doesn't offer anything new.
> Best,
> KEN
>
> Alan Maxwell wrote:
>
> > The book Rory liked was neither Chronicles or Unofficial Companion, it
was
> > "Legend of the Planet of the Apes - or How Hollywood Turned Darwin
Upside
> > Down".
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/2001 5:39:59 PM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 "Unofficial Companion" has pictures, "Chronicles" does not. Pictures like the publicity shot of "Escape" and the first EVER picture I've seen of an "Apes" voice actor make it a more rounded presentation. Well, in my mind, the pictures don't neccessarily make the book. (Although I will give you the point of it showing the Return voice actress.) To an extent, it is interesting to see what some of the behind the scenes people look like. And by the way, if you want to see another of the Return voice actors, check out a tv show mentioned in "Unofficial Companion's" 9th chapter. The show:"The Monkees", the actor: Henry Corden. He played the Monkees landlord Mr. Babbett in several episodes....As I said, if you don't have "Cinefantastique" then "Chronicles" is worth it. Otherwise, I'd prefer "Unofficial's little tidbits. Well, I spent some of this evening looking over "Chronicles" and for my money, the few tid bits in it far outweigh those in "Unofficial". By that I mean the "Note on the Mutants'" chapter, by Paul Dehn stands out as a good example. The info in there as to what he envisioned for the Beneath mutants is actually something not covered in other books that I know of. Yes, the other books do tell about the early stages of what they (might) have been in the film, but here we get to see the script writers original ideas. Yes, I know they were lifted from a draft of a script, but for those of us that don't have a copy of the Revisited script, this is something new to see. And I also liked reading the other bits from scripts, etc...even though it's not all unfamiliar stuff, and again, a lot of it has been printed before. It's things like that that make "Chronicles" a good book to me. While you're right in the sense that Woods really didn't do much authoring of his own, he did do a good compilation book. I'll compare it to what you said the other day..."Chronicles" is what could be called a 'greatest hits', A lot of good info all put into one place...Where as I see "Unofficial Companion's" content as something of a "one hit wonder". Has  it's moments, but really has no staying power.... Neither book is perfect, and I have quibbles with Russo too (like no bibliography). But I prefer "Unofficial" and I think it's a good choice to introduce someone to POTA, it's an easy read. Well to each his own as they say, but you're right, "Unofficial" is an easy read. While I don't hate  "Unofficial", it certainly leaves something to be desired.  
 But I say the definitive "Apes" book has yet to be written. You might be right on this one. And one more thing before I end my talk on these books, I think the cover on "Chronicles" is a lot cooler than the one on "Unofficial."

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/01 11:36:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 Yes, originally I was thinking, "Well, unless he's totally isolated (probably not considering the comments he made against Fox) he knows the criticisms and will correct in the sequel. Give him another shot". But listening to his commentary I don't think he CAN do it differently. The point of the first one was to see what a Burton "Apes" would look like, and we've seen that. Let them segue with Burton as producer and get a guy in there who can do sci-fi. Of course, there's the possibility the next guy will be worse (or Joel Shumacher). Judging from the commentary it doesn't sound like Burton even wants to do the sequel. They don't even need Wahlberg. Give him a cameo in the beginning as we establish the New Earth and the "surprise ending" finishes his story arc. Focus on new characters and do Boulle's novel for the 40th anniversary.

                                                           - - - - Jeff



I just got through listening to all of Burton's commentary, and I'd say he has no interest in doing a sequel.  He explains one of the reasons he won't explain the ending is so not to limit what Fox and the next guy who might direct want to do with another story.  I also don't think Burton knows what else to do with the material.  He's really not to deep in his appreciation of the POTA concept.  He seems to understand most of what makes it interesting, but chose, mistakenly I think, to move in less interesting directions, like the apes behaving more like real apes, simply in order to be different.  What I find disturbing and depressing is what little impact the Boulle novel seems to have on most of the people involved.  Burton obviously read it, but doesn't seem to get much out of it.  I think the book is far more interesting than even the original film.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/01 2:23:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@... writes:

One thing that struck me about the film was that it
would probably improve slightly (though still be extremely flawed) on repeat
viewings. Of course, the ending still won't make any sense...

The ending makes total sense to me now.  It's as improbable as Zira, Cornelius and Milo returning to earth in 1973, but I think I understand how the end fits into the film.   From looking at the time clocks in freeze-frame you can see that Davidson returns to earth over a hundred years AFTER he left.  Thade obviously got back to earth too (Krull warns Davidson in the movie that Thade will never give up coming after him), BUT he must have arrived decades earlier.  Now, as to how Thade took over the world. . . . well, that's why they make sequels -- other than for more money.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/01 6:44:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  That's one thing I will say, "Unofficial Companion" is overpriced. For a
couple of bucks more you can get Russo's book. To date I would say the
Russo, Greene and Sauseville trio make up a fine collection and the others
are a judgement call.

                                                            - - - Jeff

As I've said, Brian Pendreigh's "The Legend of the Planet of the Apes: or How Hollywood turned Darwin Upside Down" is also very good, a must have.  It has info Russo's book doesn't have, though not a great deal, and it's more professionally written.  It does have one weird chapter, though, Chapter Fifteen "Hommage" where the author writes this short story.  I have no idea why that was included.

-- Rory <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/01 10:01:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

The show:"The Monkees", the actor: Henry Corden. He played the Monkees landlord Mr. Babbett in several episodes.

Corden was the voice of Fred Flintstone for years after the original Fred, Alan Reed, died.

-- Rory


<.html

The show:"The Monkees", the actor: Henry Corden. He played the Monkees landlord Mr. Babbett in several episodes.


Corden was the voice of Fred Flintstone for years after the original Fred, Alan Reed, died.

-- Rory

While that is true, I mentioned him being in The Monkees to say that if you want to know what he looks like, you can see him on there. That, and a lot of Apes writings that mention Corden mention his work with the Flintstones, but they don't always mention his actual screen appearances.

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:03 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] New Movie Reaccessed

In a message dated 11/24/01 11:36:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 Yes, originally I was thinking, "Well, unless he's totally isolated (probably not considering the comments he made against Fox) he knows the criticisms and will correct in the sequel. Give him another shot". But listening to his commentary I don't think he CAN do it differently. The point of the first one was to see what a Burton "Apes" would look like, and we've seen that. Let them segue with Burton as producer and get a guy in there who can do sci-fi. Of course, there's the possibility the next guy will be worse (or Joel Shumacher). Judging from the commentary it doesn't sound like Burton even wants to do the sequel. They don't even need Wahlberg. Give him a cameo in the beginning as we establish the New Earth and the "surprise ending" finishes his story arc. Focus on new characters and do Boulle's novel for the 40th anniversary.

                                                           - - - - Jeff

I just got through listening to all of Burton's commentary, and I'd say he has no interest in doing a sequel.  He explains one of the reasons he won't explain the ending is so not to limit what Fox and the next guy who might direct want to do with another story.  I also don't think Burton knows what else to do with the material.  He's really not to deep in his appreciation of the POTA concept.  He seems to understand most of what makes it interesting, but chose, mistakenly I think, to move in less interesting directions, like the apes behaving more like real apes, simply in order to be different.  What I find disturbing and depressing is what little impact the Boulle novel seems to have on most of the people involved.  Burton obviously read it, but doesn't seem to get much out of it.  I think the book is far more interesting than even the original film.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:17 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] POTA Chronicles

In a message dated 11/24/01 6:44:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  That's one thing I will say, "Unofficial Companion" is overpriced. For a
couple of bucks more you can get Russo's book. To date I would say the
Russo, Greene and Sauseville trio make up a fine collection and the others
are a judgement call.

                                                            - - - Jeff

As I've said, Brian Pendreigh's "The Legend of the Planet of the Apes: or How Hollywood turned Darwin Upside Down" is also very good, a must have.  It has info Russo's book doesn't have, though not a great deal, and it's more professionally written.  It does have one weird chapter, though, Chapter Fifteen "Hommage" where the author writes this short story.  I have no idea why that was included.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:00 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] POTA Chronicles

In a message dated 11/24/2001 5:39:59 PM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 "Unofficial Companion" has pictures, "Chronicles" does not. Pictures like the publicity shot of "Escape" and the first EVER picture I've seen of an "Apes" voice actor make it a more rounded presentation. Well, in my mind, the pictures don't neccessarily make the book. (Although I will give you the point of it showing the Return voice actress.) To an extent, it is interesting to see what some of the behind the scenes people look like. And by the way, if you want to see another of the Return voice actors, check out a tv show mentioned in "Unofficial Companion's" 9th chapter. The show:"The Monkees", the actor: Henry Corden. He played the Monkees landlord Mr. Babbett in several episodes....As I said, if you don't have "Cinefantastique" then "Chronicles" is worth it. Otherwise, I'd prefer "Unofficial's little tidbits. Well, I spent some of this evening looking over "Chronicles" and for my money, the few tid bits in it far outweigh those in "Unofficial". By that I mean the "Note on the Mutants'" chapter, by Paul Dehn stands out as a good example. The info in there as to what he envisioned for the Beneath mutants is actually something not covered in other books that I know of. Yes, the other books do tell about the early stages of what they (might) have been in the film, but here we get to see the script writers original ideas. Yes, I know they were lifted from a draft of a script, but for those of us that don't have a copy of the Revisited script, this is something new to see. And I also liked reading the other bits from scripts, etc...even though it's not all unfamiliar stuff, and again, a lot of it has been printed before. It's things like that that make "Chronicles" a good book to me. While you're right in the sense that Woods really didn't do much authoring of his own, he did do a good compilation book. I'll compare it to what you said the other day..."Chronicles" is what could be called a 'greatest hits', A lot of good info all put into one place...Where as I see "Unofficial Companion's" content as something of a "one hit wonder". Has  it's moments, but really has no staying power.... Neither book is perfect, and I have quibbles with Russo too (like no bibliography). But I prefer "Unofficial" and I think it's a good choice to introduce someone to POTA, it's an easy read. Well to each his own as they say, but you're right, "Unofficial" is an easy read. While I don't hate  "Unofficial", it certainly leaves something to be desired.  
 But I say the definitive "Apes" book has yet to be written. You might be right on this one. And one more thing before I end my talk on these books, I think the cover on "Chronicles" is a lot cooler than the one on "Unofficial."

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Yes, both of those books smack of bandwagon jumping and don't have the history that Russo's does, but I'm glad they were published. After two decades of enough "Star Wars" and "Star trek" books to gag on, at last POTA books are starting to fill a shelf. I just can't believe publishers had no faith in the topic until now. - - - Jeff

Now this is something I TOTALLY agree with you on. I have had quite enough of the others (SW and ST) getting more than their share of credit, and Apes being swept under the rug. I am also glad they did release these "documentary" books on Apes, but now we need to get Fox to grant permission to some good authors to write novels based on classic Apes material.(Maybe the continuing story of the tv series characters for starters.) How many novels are out there based on classic Trek? I mean to this day they are still grinding out stories based on those characters
/situations... There is no reason why there aren't good Apes novels out there, other than Fox not granting permission to would be authors. And as for SW, I don't read those books either, but I know there are more damn books based on the SW universe than you could shake a stick at. And a lot of those books don't even use SW canon as source material, not that I can tell anyway, like I said, I don't read 'em. But from the little I do know, it's like they are granted permission to write any old story, and slap SW references (i.e. the terms Jedi, the Imperials, etc...)in it, and watch the SW fans snatch them up.

And, for the fans of the 2001 POTA, they should have novels written on their Apes as well. I know I'd never read them, but we might as well give them their's too. I mean if there can be novels based on both the classic Trek, and all the other Trek entities, there should be room enough on the shelves for two different selections of Apes books.

In a message dated 11/24/01 6:39:49 PM, veetus@... writes:

<< "Unofficial Companion" has pictures, "Chronicles" does not. Pictures
like the publicity shot of "Escape" and the first EVER picture I've seen of
an "Apes" voice actor make it a more rounded presentation. >>

Oh get off it Jeff. We all know the only reason you are jonesing over
"Unofficial Companion" is because it has a picture of you in it ;)

Matt

P.S. For the record, I picked up "Unoffical Companion," took it home, thumbed
through it a bit and then returned it. It didn't do much for me.

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/2001 2:53:03 PM Central Standard Time, kentaylor@... writes:

" I'll save you Skip-perrrrr!" If Daena was Ginger and Ari was Mary Anne, who
was Lovey?

Nova of course!  She was married to that rich guy.
The little gold digger!

<.html

.htmlI watched the first episode of the TV show last night and a little bit of the second.  I think I'll stretch this out and just watch one episode a weekend.   I like the picture quality is fine, or rather about as good as you can expect.  One thing that bothers me is that the show was too brightly lit in the interiors and you can see every detail of the makeup; where the appliances begin and end, the insides of the mouths, and the shine of bits of glue here and there.  And who was responsible for the 'look' of Booth Colman's Dr. Zaius?   What's with the hair?  It looks terrible.

You might want to check out the beginning of the second episode, "The Galdiators."   When Galen, Burke and Alan are eating the 'oper' fruit, it's shot in front of the pool the astronauts swam in in PLANET.
It'll be fun to watch the rest of the show and spot little things like this.

-- Rory<.html

--- In pota@y..., "Alexander Ruiz" <prophecysite@h...> wrote:

> I was studying the official site and I realized that all the info about the ending is not true. Notice that the whole research is called TRI: Temporal.Research.Institute.
> Notice that it is Temporal or TEMPORARY. It all says that everything that has happened has just been controversy.
>
> Also, while in the main part, every thing has a Hypothesis. Would they put all of that for no reason? I 100% doubt it.
>
> And also, why would they ruin part of the sequel? This whole website is just giving us something to talk about until the sequel or further info.
>
>Sorry to burst your bubble, but the word "temporal" comes from the Latin TEMPUS, "time" (as in TEMPUS FUGIT: "time flies"). 'Temporal' does NOT mean temporary; it is an adjective describing the nature of the "research" being conducted. 'Temporary' also derives from TEMPUS, but means not "time" in general, but implies a "limited amount of time" (temporary as opposed to "permanent").

I'm happy you enjoyed Burton's movie. I wanted to like it... I wanted
desperately not to hate it... but, jeez, it stunk. Sure, the special
effects were (for the most part) par for the course given the
abilities of modern day SFX houses, but Chambers' make-ups for Zira in
the original POTA were superior to Rick Baker's Ari & Nova make-ups
(all his other ape-make-ups were fantastic).
Why is it that we STILL didn't get to see any female orangutans &
gorillas? The original movie & TV series was lacking in this regard,
and I was wondering how the new movie would deal with it--but they
didn't!
And why didn't Thade ever express an emotion other than sneering
hatred? Was Roth restricted by the make-ups and/or the script?
Couldn't they have given him one moment to express, say, laughter?
Amusement? Befuddlement? Inquisitiveness? Nope... just sneer, snarl,
pissed-off every damn second...
Ugh. I wanted to not hate it. I hate to say I hated it.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:

> I must say, the word Joe used is VERY tame compared to some of the language
> we let fly from time to time in this group.
>
> Sometimes obscenities best describe things (the new movie for example).
>
> This is a fairly democratic group and you are the only one who has
> complained about the use of the word "dick".
>
> If anyone else is offended please speak up and we shall analyse the results.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Artessatwork@a... [Artessatwork@a...]
> Sent: Saturday, 17 November 2001 17:45
> To: pota@y...
> Subject: Re: [pota] DVD Commercial
>
>
> In a message dated 11/16/2001 10:42:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> CheeseGOTAS@a... writes:
>
>
>
> << Oh, come on. Have respect for your readers. And that goes for
> everyone!
> >>
>
> I never said I didn't. Readers - You rock!
>
> -Joe
>
>
>
> You say it only by what you write. I'm not one of these sentives, but I
> do have a big thing about language, grammer as well. But, that's my
> problem.

By "sentives" do you mean "sensitives"?
And "grammer"... do you mean "grammar"? Sorry to be a nitpicker here,
but, c'mon! So-called "profanity" doesn't bother ME as much as bad
spelling. I have a "big thing about language", too; it's just that I
cringe when surfing the internet and see spelling that would shame a
second-grader!
I blame the "rap" artist community. They go out of their way to mis-
spell (the > "da"; 'players' > "playaz"; etc.). It's no wonder our
schools churn out generations of nearly illiterate kids, with their
favorite 'music' style's practitioners destroying the English
language.
If you think I'm over-reacting... go ahead, call ME a "dick"--though
I'd prefer "richard", since that word is 7/4ths longer than the
former!

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:

> That was the best reiew - well researched and intelligently articulated.
>
> Michael
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haristas@a... [Haristas@a...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2001 6:20
> To: pota@y...
> Subject: [pota] Check out The DVD Journal: Planet of the Apes: The
> Complete TV Series
>
>
> Click here: The DVD Journal: Planet of the Apes: The Complete TV Series
>
> Here's probably the most you'll ever see written about the POTA TV show
> on the web.
>
> -- Rory
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

I just read Alexandra DuPont's review of the POTA TV series (on DVD).
Quite frankly, I think she missed the point.
Remember the "Unabomber", Ted Kaszinski (hope I spelled his name
right)? His 'raison d'etre' for sending explosive packages in the mail
centered around his "luddite" mentality, his hatred of scientific
progress. The PotA TV series, in retrospect, seems to have been
specifically targeted at Kaszinski's warped anti-technology worldview.
The POTA series establishes that Chief Councillor Zaius--who is one of
the "few" who know the truth about the Fall of Mankind ("...your
science... we don't want them! We don't even want their memory!") and
is the most powerful person (politically) in the Apes' world, is
deathly afraid of "higher" technology. He hates humans because their
kind once used destructive technology to wipe out their own
civilization. He urges Urko (at the end of "The Legacy") to destroy
the "vault" of human knowledge Burke & Galen had discovered in
Oakland's ruins, because EVEN APES (specifically, Urko's gorillas)
might take advantage of the "human knowledge" and destroy the world.
"Would you risk that?" Zaius asks Urko. Urko, who at first tried to
talk Zaius into exploiting the knowledge for Apekind (whom Urko
considers morally superior to Mankind--"We're not like them... it
would be safe with us..."), is convinced by Zaius that one of his own
underlings could use the knowledge to, perhaps, overthrow his own
power (as leader of the gorilla faction).
DuPont decries, episode after episode, the "utterly preposterous
expertise demonstrated by astronauts". But that's the POINT. These two
men are not your average idiot--they're SCIENTISTS, trained by years
of superior education in college and/or military academies. Virdon's
expertise (in "The Good Seeds" and "The Horse Race") is explained in
the shows as being due to his having grown up on a farm. What's so
preposterous about that? Virdon & Burke know how to construct a
working power unit ("battery") to re-start the holographic projector
in "The Legacy". Hell, if they'd have had a grapefruit and a couple
pieces of conductive wire, they could have gotten the electrons
flowing--even I (and I'm not an astronaut!) was able to do that in
elementary school! Preposterous? Not at all.
In "The Trap", is it preposterous that Virdon knows how to set up a
"rudimentary pulley system"? A man who grows up on a farm and later on
becomes an astronaut for the United States government? Jeezus, I had a
set of Tinkertoys (TM) when I was a kid; even I could have figured out
the "lever"/"fulcrum" set-up that Virdon rigs. Remember Burke's line
to Urko about "basic engineering"? What part of the word "basic"
doesn't DuPont understand?
Is it preposterous that Burke would know the difference between the
various blood-types and how to transfuse blood? If he had a high
school education he could know the former, and if he had ever been a
blood donor (or had blood transfused into himself, or seen the
procedure done on another) he could know the latter.
In "Up Above...", the Astronauts know how to build a glider. Imagine
that! Astronauts (who fly spaceships capable of traveling to Alpha
Centauri) who "preposterously" know how to build a simple glider! And
the know-how to grind down a crystal into a lens--how is that
preposterous? If you can find a rock that is harder than the minerals
in the crystal and know that a lens-shape is possible to make out of
that raw material, even a CAVE MAN could rub the stones together!

There's a scene in a 1st-season episode of "Babylon 5", where Sinclair
gives a speech relevant to this whole "technology"-vs.-"luddite"
argument. Sinclair says that eventually the Sun will run out of
hydrogen and die out... and if Humanity doesn't go to the Stars (which
can ONLY be done via the exploitation of "true science" & technology),
he will CEASE TO EXIST. Eventually. Sure, it might be a long way off,
the death of the Sun... but if we don't strive in that direction, we
will die--we will have killed off our own long-term survivability.
THIS is the purpose, the point, of the TV "Planet of the Apes" series.
Regardless of whether or not there's an "Alpha Omega" doomsday bomb in
St. Patrick's Cathedral in 3955 for Taylor to detonate, the death of
the Sun will be the death of us ALL, human or ape or any other
species, if Science and Technology are NOT exploited.
The POTA series also deals with the theme of Government; our
government (i.e. the US government) was established on the principles
set forth in the Preamble to the Constitution which states, in part:
"...to secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves AND OUR
POSTERITY" (my emphasis). It should be needless to say--yet, alas, it
seems it DOES NEED to be said--but there CAN BE NO POSTERITY if we sit
around resting on our technological laurels (or, worse, backtrack to a
horse-and-buggy level that Kaszinski would prefer) while the Sun
continues to use up its limited supply of hydrogen, and the ultimate
death of the human race inexorably approaches. Those who don't like
governmental involvement in the Space program should think for a
moment: if the Constitution addresses the concerns of a remote
"posterity", and if the only means of perpetuating human posterity in
the remote future is through the development of interstellar space
travel, then why SHOULDN'T there be a role for the US government in
exploring/traveling in/colonizing outer space?
The Ape civilization of 3085 is the ultimate in "luddite" philosophy.
Technology is feared by those in charge. Civilization itself is in a
rut out of which it MUST be freed, lest the intelligent beings
dwelling in it die out in the long term future. Virdon & Burke (and
the mysterious "as-tro-nauts" Zaius & Urko tell Galen about in "Escape
From Tomorrow" who landed "more than ten years ago...") represent,
philosophically, the ONLY HOPE that ANY species has for long term
survivability. Ultimately, Zaius' fear of the destructive capability
of technology must be overcome by the surety that CONSTRUCTIVE
technology is the only hope for any future. Religions can promise all
they want that an incorporeal part of us will survive our literal
deaths--but they can't prove it. And the perpetuation of our lives and
our intelligence must not be left to chance--which is, ultimately,
what a religion-based society does: gamble with "dice" of dogmas &
doctrines on the fate of the human (and simian) race.
For all its flaws, the "Planet of the Apes" TV series,
philosophically, is IMPORTANT. The infusion of "know-how" into a
backward culture may seem (to some) to border on cultural racism, but
look at it this way: if the bearded white-skinned "god" from across
the water (Quetzalcoatl) had NOT "reformed" the "barbarous" culture he
discovered in Mesoamerica (replete with human sacrifice), would the
current residents of Mexico be better off? Raise your hand if you
think the re-establishment of LITERAL (and NOT merely symbolic)
cannibalism and human sacrifice would be a good thing.
Virdon & Burke (who represent the ideals of a technological society
founded on the principles of the US Constitution's Preamble) are a
"gift" from "heaven" (i.e. their re-entry from outer space) to a
stagnant, doomed society whose leaders are racist and afraid of the
lesser evil of Technological War, when the greater evil (eventual
annihilation of all intelligent life) can be overcome ONLY through the
application of peaceful technologies.

There were only 14 episodes completed of this show which, for its
time, was quite expensive. The CBS network didn't try shuffling their
schedule around to see if it could have flourished in another time-
spot, instead of opposite ratings giants "Chico and the Man" and
"Sanford and Son". Compare the first 14 episodes of the original STAR
TREK, and I think POTA compares favorably. Who knows how much BETTER
the POTA TV series could have gotten had they had the chance to let it
get its "legs". Alas, we'll never know. Granted, it was not a superb
show. It was an entertaining diversion with a supremely important
foundation philosophy. And it was geared for a "family" audience;
remember, the 5 movies were rated G, and "BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE
APES" was specifically toned-down in the violence department. They
weren't about to "up" the violence level in the TV show, given that
trend. Yet we do see death in this depressing simian future: the "old
man" Farrow is shot to death by a gorilla ("[apes] are always killing
humans"); Galen accidentally kills a would-be assassin gorilla; Zaius
is to have "poor Galen killed", using the murder charge as an official
excuse--yet the real reason being his exposure to the ideas in a
banned human book ("Do you realize that the mere possession of such a
book is punishable by death?" Zaius asks Galen), the "infection" of
Knowledge "carried" by the Astronauts being "fatal".
And that's just the first episode.
Yes, compared to the original movie, the TV POTA show was "watered-
down". Name me one TV spin-off of a movie that ISN'T watered down from
its originator/predecessor. So what? Given the constraints the
creative producers/directors/actors/etc. had to work with, it's a
wonder the show was as good as it was. The poor quality of the Tim
Burton "re-imagining" (I'm talking in terms of thematic content, not
special effects & make-ups) is due not to a strait-jacket of censor-
enforced constraints but to sheer incompetence, especially in the
script department. Whoever green-lighted the script Burton filmed
should be given the lion's share of the raspberries that project so
richly deserved. Talk about wasted opportunities!
The POTA TV series was not superb, but it was a bit better than just
"okay". Thematically, it was important, and today its message is
extremely relevant. In the wake of the World Trade Center incident
(the mis-use of constructive technology--airplanes--for destructive
ends), we would all do well to examine the mentalities of those who
perpetrated those horrific acts--and the causes of those mind-sets.
Religious fanaticism. How does the Earth become destroyed in the
PLANET OF THE APES scenario of the future? Two opposing groups (Apes
and "mutant" Humans) each fueled by a sense of religious superiority
(think of the Orangutan priest giving ecclesiastical sanction for
Ursus' "holy war" undertaken for God's sake, and of his "holiness"
Mendez XXVI's societal worship of the "doomsday bomb") duke it out in
a "racial apocalypse" (as Eric Greene terms it)... and the ultimate in
misanthropy ("hatred of Humanity"), Colonel Taylor, triggers the final
world-destroying bomb in an act of dying madness. This is the same guy
who collapsed before the half-buried Statue of Liberty (!) and called
upon God to "damn" the human race to Hell. Literally.
The protagonist of PLANET, Taylor, is the moral equivalent of Osama
bin Laden. The philosophy of Virdon ("I believe that all intelligent
creatures should live together as equals"--"Maybe he was right," Galen
suggests to Zaius) is the solution to the moral conundrum set forth in
the first scene of the movie PLANET (Taylor's soliloquy) and re-
phrased throughout the movie sequels and the television series.
So shrug off the TV show's short-comings. It's worth watching--and,
more importantly, PONDERING.

P.S. The supposed "double entendre" in "The Horse Race" DuPont cites
is incorrect; Gregar responds to the line "Galen's our friend" with
the line, "I'd like him to be MINE" (my emphasis). He wants to be
friends with Galen--as Burke and Virdon are. He doesn't say "I'd like
him to be MORE". I think DuPont is starting to hear things that aren't
really there. It's too bad she wasn't able (it seems) to see things
that really WERE there, under the surface.
--Patrick Michael Tilton, 25 November 2001 (exactly 1,977 years prior
to the EARTH-TIME date Chuck Heston glimpses in his sinking ship!)

Agreed! But I guess that would depend on how well the books that are out
now sell. Supply and demand. I would guess if a big publisher wanted to
publish "Apes" books Fox would be happy to take their money but they might
be holding back the license to the originals.

From what I understand, "Star Wars" books have to be approved by Lucas'
company and supposedly are part of continuity but aren't allowed to enter
the time frame he uses for the movies.

- - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <mlccougar@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: [pota] POTA Chronicles and Complaining about the "STARS"


> Yes, both of those books smack of bandwagon jumping and don't have the
history that Russo's does, but I'm glad they were published. After two
decades of enough "Star Wars" and "Star trek" books to gag on, at last POTA
books are starting to fill a shelf. I just can't believe publishers had no
faith in the topic until now. - - - Jeff
>
> Now this is something I TOTALLY agree with you on. I have had quite enough
of the others (SW and ST) getting more than their share of credit, and Apes
being swept under the rug. I am also glad they did release these
"documentary" books on Apes, but now we need to get Fox to grant permission
to some good authors to write novels based on classic Apes material.(Maybe
the continuing story of the tv series characters for starters.) How many
novels are out there based on classic Trek? I mean to this day they are
still grinding out stories based on those characters
> /situations... There is no reason why there aren't good Apes novels out
there, other than Fox not granting permission to would be authors. And as
for SW, I don't read those books either, but I know there are more damn
books based on the SW universe than you could shake a stick at. And a lot of
those books don't even use SW canon as source material, not that I can tell
anyway, like I said, I don't read 'em. But from the little I do know, it's
like they are granted permission to write any old story, and slap SW
references (i.e. the terms Jedi, the Imperials, etc...)in it, and watch the
SW fans snatch them up.
>
> And, for the fans of the 2001 POTA, they should have novels written on
their Apes as well. I know I'd never read them, but we might as well give
them their's too. I mean if there can be novels based on both the classic
Trek, and all the other Trek entities, there should be room enough on the
shelves for two different selections of Apes books.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hey, I call 'em as I see them. Even if there weren't pictures of me,
"Unofficial" obviously is a fine publication. But what can I do? I can't
wish those pictures away. I'm trapped. Some authors just have
incomprehensible good taste. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 4:48 AM
Subject: Re: [pota] POTA Chronicles


>
> In a message dated 11/24/01 6:39:49 PM, veetus@... writes:
>
> << "Unofficial Companion" has pictures, "Chronicles" does not. Pictures
> like the publicity shot of "Escape" and the first EVER picture I've seen
of
> an "Apes" voice actor make it a more rounded presentation. >>
>
> Oh get off it Jeff. We all know the only reason you are jonesing over
> "Unofficial Companion" is because it has a picture of you in it ;)
>
> Matt
>
> P.S. For the record, I picked up "Unoffical Companion," took it home,
thumbed
> through it a bit and then returned it. It didn't do much for me.
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 5:18 AM

Subject: [pota] TV Show DVDs

I watched the first episode of the TV show last night and a little bit of the second.  I think I'll stretch this out and just watch one episode a weekend.   I like the picture quality is fine, or rather about as good as you can expect.  One thing that bothers me is that the show was too brightly lit in the interiors and you can see every detail of the makeup; where the appliances begin and end, the insides of the mouths, and the shine of bits of glue here and there.  And who was responsible for the 'look' of Booth Colman's Dr. Zaius?   What's with the hair?  It looks terrible.

You might want to check out the beginning of the second episode, "The Galdiators."   When Galen, Burke and Alan are eating the 'oper' fruit, it's shot in front of the pool the astronauts swam in in PLANET.
It'll be fun to watch the rest of the show and spot little things like this.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Interviews with Rick Baker give some clues. He wanted to do baboons and
even monkeys but time was so strained they decide to stick with the 3
principles. The script is such an "unimagination" that they seemed to follow
the basic blueprint of the originals, thus no females of the other species.
Thade's makeup was basically created with a built-in scowl. If there's one
thing you don't ask of Tim Burton, it's a subtle villian. I think the scene
where the child is given to the Thade's niece would be OK, but Roth's
overacting ruins it. The Heston scene would be OK but Burton throws in the
lines from the original at the most dramatic moment and RUINS it. I just
don't think he had the time to step back and take a good look. For the
record, Baker didn't like the female makeup but was required to do it, and
for no other reason I can tell but Burton's
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 6:18 AM
Subject: [pota] Re: Official Site Hypothesis


> --- In pota@y..., "Alexander Ruiz" <prophecysite@h...> wrote:
> > I was studying the official site and I realized that all the info about
the ending is not true. Notice that the whole research is called TRI:
Temporal.Research.Institute.
> > Notice that it is Temporal or TEMPORARY. It all says that everything
that has happened has just been controversy.
> >
> > Also, while in the main part, every thing has a Hypothesis. Would they
put all of that for no reason? I 100% doubt it.
> >
> > And also, why would they ruin part of the sequel? This whole website is
just giving us something to talk about until the sequel or further info.
> >
> >Sorry to burst your bubble, but the word "temporal" comes from the Latin
TEMPUS, "time" (as in TEMPUS FUGIT: "time flies"). 'Temporal' does NOT mean
temporary; it is an adjective describing the nature of the "research" being
conducted. 'Temporary' also derives from TEMPUS, but means not "time" in
general, but implies a "limited amount of time" (temporary as opposed to
"permanent").
> I'm happy you enjoyed Burton's movie. I wanted to like it... I wanted
> desperately not to hate it... but, jeez, it stunk. Sure, the special
> effects were (for the most part) par for the course given the
> abilities of modern day SFX houses, but Chambers' make-ups for Zira in
> the original POTA were superior to Rick Baker's Ari & Nova make-ups
> (all his other ape-make-ups were fantastic).
> Why is it that we STILL didn't get to see any female orangutans &
> gorillas? The original movie & TV series was lacking in this regard,
> and I was wondering how the new movie would deal with it--but they
> didn't!
> And why didn't Thade ever express an emotion other than sneering
> hatred? Was Roth restricted by the make-ups and/or the script?
> Couldn't they have given him one moment to express, say, laughter?
> Amusement? Befuddlement? Inquisitiveness? Nope... just sneer, snarl,
> pissed-off every damn second...
> Ugh. I wanted to not hate it. I hate to say I hated it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Wow! Some good points, Patrick, especially in these times when
backward-thinking folks like the Taliban think they know what's best for
everybody.

- - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 8:33 AM
Subject: [pota] Re: DVD Journal: Planet of the Apes: The Complete TV Series


> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > That was the best reiew - well researched and intelligently articulated.
> >
> > Michael
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Haristas@a... [Haristas@a...]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2001 6:20
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [pota] Check out The DVD Journal: Planet of the Apes: The
> > Complete TV Series
> >
> >
> > Click here: The DVD Journal: Planet of the Apes: The Complete TV
Series
> >
> > Here's probably the most you'll ever see written about the POTA TV
show
> > on the web.
> >
> > -- Rory
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> I just read Alexandra DuPont's review of the POTA TV series (on DVD).
> Quite frankly, I think she missed the point.
> Remember the "Unabomber", Ted Kaszinski (hope I spelled his name
> right)? His 'raison d'etre' for sending explosive packages in the mail
> centered around his "luddite" mentality, his hatred of scientific
> progress. The PotA TV series, in retrospect, seems to have been
> specifically targeted at Kaszinski's warped anti-technology worldview.
> The POTA series establishes that Chief Councillor Zaius--who is one of
> the "few" who know the truth about the Fall of Mankind ("...your
> science... we don't want them! We don't even want their memory!") and
> is the most powerful person (politically) in the Apes' world, is
> deathly afraid of "higher" technology. He hates humans because their
> kind once used destructive technology to wipe out their own
> civilization. He urges Urko (at the end of "The Legacy") to destroy
> the "vault" of human knowledge Burke & Galen had discovered in
> Oakland's ruins, because EVEN APES (specifically, Urko's gorillas)
> might take advantage of the "human knowledge" and destroy the world.
> "Would you risk that?" Zaius asks Urko. Urko, who at first tried to
> talk Zaius into exploiting the knowledge for Apekind (whom Urko
> considers morally superior to Mankind--"We're not like them... it
> would be safe with us..."), is convinced by Zaius that one of his own
> underlings could use the knowledge to, perhaps, overthrow his own
> power (as leader of the gorilla faction).
> DuPont decries, episode after episode, the "utterly preposterous
> expertise demonstrated by astronauts". But that's the POINT. These two
> men are not your average idiot--they're SCIENTISTS, trained by years
> of superior education in college and/or military academies. Virdon's
> expertise (in "The Good Seeds" and "The Horse Race") is explained in
> the shows as being due to his having grown up on a farm. What's so
> preposterous about that? Virdon & Burke know how to construct a
> working power unit ("battery") to re-start the holographic projector
> in "The Legacy". Hell, if they'd have had a grapefruit and a couple
> pieces of conductive wire, they could have gotten the electrons
> flowing--even I (and I'm not an astronaut!) was able to do that in
> elementary school! Preposterous? Not at all.
> In "The Trap", is it preposterous that Virdon knows how to set up a
> "rudimentary pulley system"? A man who grows up on a farm and later on
> becomes an astronaut for the United States government? Jeezus, I had a
> set of Tinkertoys (TM) when I was a kid; even I could have figured out
> the "lever"/"fulcrum" set-up that Virdon rigs. Remember Burke's line
> to Urko about "basic engineering"? What part of the word "basic"
> doesn't DuPont understand?
> Is it preposterous that Burke would know the difference between the
> various blood-types and how to transfuse blood? If he had a high
> school education he could know the former, and if he had ever been a
> blood donor (or had blood transfused into himself, or seen the
> procedure done on another) he could know the latter.
> In "Up Above...", the Astronauts know how to build a glider. Imagine
> that! Astronauts (who fly spaceships capable of traveling to Alpha
> Centauri) who "preposterously" know how to build a simple glider! And
> the know-how to grind down a crystal into a lens--how is that
> preposterous? If you can find a rock that is harder than the minerals
> in the crystal and know that a lens-shape is possible to make out of
> that raw material, even a CAVE MAN could rub the stones together!
>
> There's a scene in a 1st-season episode of "Babylon 5", where Sinclair
> gives a speech relevant to this whole "technology"-vs.-"luddite"
> argument. Sinclair says that eventually the Sun will run out of
> hydrogen and die out... and if Humanity doesn't go to the Stars (which
> can ONLY be done via the exploitation of "true science" & technology),
> he will CEASE TO EXIST. Eventually. Sure, it might be a long way off,
> the death of the Sun... but if we don't strive in that direction, we
> will die--we will have killed off our own long-term survivability.
> THIS is the purpose, the point, of the TV "Planet of the Apes" series.
> Regardless of whether or not there's an "Alpha Omega" doomsday bomb in
> St. Patrick's Cathedral in 3955 for Taylor to detonate, the death of
> the Sun will be the death of us ALL, human or ape or any other
> species, if Science and Technology are NOT exploited.
> The POTA series also deals with the theme of Government; our
> government (i.e. the US government) was established on the principles
> set forth in the Preamble to the Constitution which states, in part:
> "...to secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves AND OUR
> POSTERITY" (my emphasis). It should be needless to say--yet, alas, it
> seems it DOES NEED to be said--but there CAN BE NO POSTERITY if we sit
> around resting on our technological laurels (or, worse, backtrack to a
> horse-and-buggy level that Kaszinski would prefer) while the Sun
> continues to use up its limited supply of hydrogen, and the ultimate
> death of the human race inexorably approaches. Those who don't like
> governmental involvement in the Space program should think for a
> moment: if the Constitution addresses the concerns of a remote
> "posterity", and if the only means of perpetuating human posterity in
> the remote future is through the development of interstellar space
> travel, then why SHOULDN'T there be a role for the US government in
> exploring/traveling in/colonizing outer space?
> The Ape civilization of 3085 is the ultimate in "luddite" philosophy.
> Technology is feared by those in charge. Civilization itself is in a
> rut out of which it MUST be freed, lest the intelligent beings
> dwelling in it die out in the long term future. Virdon & Burke (and
> the mysterious "as-tro-nauts" Zaius & Urko tell Galen about in "Escape
> From Tomorrow" who landed "more than ten years ago...") represent,
> philosophically, the ONLY HOPE that ANY species has for long term
> survivability. Ultimately, Zaius' fear of the destructive capability
> of technology must be overcome by the surety that CONSTRUCTIVE
> technology is the only hope for any future. Religions can promise all
> they want that an incorporeal part of us will survive our literal
> deaths--but they can't prove it. And the perpetuation of our lives and
> our intelligence must not be left to chance--which is, ultimately,
> what a religion-based society does: gamble with "dice" of dogmas &
> doctrines on the fate of the human (and simian) race.
> For all its flaws, the "Planet of the Apes" TV series,
> philosophically, is IMPORTANT. The infusion of "know-how" into a
> backward culture may seem (to some) to border on cultural racism, but
> look at it this way: if the bearded white-skinned "god" from across
> the water (Quetzalcoatl) had NOT "reformed" the "barbarous" culture he
> discovered in Mesoamerica (replete with human sacrifice), would the
> current residents of Mexico be better off? Raise your hand if you
> think the re-establishment of LITERAL (and NOT merely symbolic)
> cannibalism and human sacrifice would be a good thing.
> Virdon & Burke (who represent the ideals of a technological society
> founded on the principles of the US Constitution's Preamble) are a
> "gift" from "heaven" (i.e. their re-entry from outer space) to a
> stagnant, doomed society whose leaders are racist and afraid of the
> lesser evil of Technological War, when the greater evil (eventual
> annihilation of all intelligent life) can be overcome ONLY through the
> application of peaceful technologies.
>
> There were only 14 episodes completed of this show which, for its
> time, was quite expensive. The CBS network didn't try shuffling their
> schedule around to see if it could have flourished in another time-
> spot, instead of opposite ratings giants "Chico and the Man" and
> "Sanford and Son". Compare the first 14 episodes of the original STAR
> TREK, and I think POTA compares favorably. Who knows how much BETTER
> the POTA TV series could have gotten had they had the chance to let it
> get its "legs". Alas, we'll never know. Granted, it was not a superb
> show. It was an entertaining diversion with a supremely important
> foundation philosophy. And it was geared for a "family" audience;
> remember, the 5 movies were rated G, and "BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE
> APES" was specifically toned-down in the violence department. They
> weren't about to "up" the violence level in the TV show, given that
> trend. Yet we do see death in this depressing simian future: the "old
> man" Farrow is shot to death by a gorilla ("[apes] are always killing
> humans"); Galen accidentally kills a would-be assassin gorilla; Zaius
> is to have "poor Galen killed", using the murder charge as an official
> excuse--yet the real reason being his exposure to the ideas in a
> banned human book ("Do you realize that the mere possession of such a
> book is punishable by death?" Zaius asks Galen), the "infection" of
> Knowledge "carried" by the Astronauts being "fatal".
> And that's just the first episode.
> Yes, compared to the original movie, the TV POTA show was "watered-
> down". Name me one TV spin-off of a movie that ISN'T watered down from
> its originator/predecessor. So what? Given the constraints the
> creative producers/directors/actors/etc. had to work with, it's a
> wonder the show was as good as it was. The poor quality of the Tim
> Burton "re-imagining" (I'm talking in terms of thematic content, not
> special effects & make-ups) is due not to a strait-jacket of censor-
> enforced constraints but to sheer incompetence, especially in the
> script department. Whoever green-lighted the script Burton filmed
> should be given the lion's share of the raspberries that project so
> richly deserved. Talk about wasted opportunities!
> The POTA TV series was not superb, but it was a bit better than just
> "okay". Thematically, it was important, and today its message is
> extremely relevant. In the wake of the World Trade Center incident
> (the mis-use of constructive technology--airplanes--for destructive
> ends), we would all do well to examine the mentalities of those who
> perpetrated those horrific acts--and the causes of those mind-sets.
> Religious fanaticism. How does the Earth become destroyed in the
> PLANET OF THE APES scenario of the future? Two opposing groups (Apes
> and "mutant" Humans) each fueled by a sense of religious superiority
> (think of the Orangutan priest giving ecclesiastical sanction for
> Ursus' "holy war" undertaken for God's sake, and of his "holiness"
> Mendez XXVI's societal worship of the "doomsday bomb") duke it out in
> a "racial apocalypse" (as Eric Greene terms it)... and the ultimate in
> misanthropy ("hatred of Humanity"), Colonel Taylor, triggers the final
> world-destroying bomb in an act of dying madness. This is the same guy
> who collapsed before the half-buried Statue of Liberty (!) and called
> upon God to "damn" the human race to Hell. Literally.
> The protagonist of PLANET, Taylor, is the moral equivalent of Osama
> bin Laden. The philosophy of Virdon ("I believe that all intelligent
> creatures should live together as equals"--"Maybe he was right," Galen
> suggests to Zaius) is the solution to the moral conundrum set forth in
> the first scene of the movie PLANET (Taylor's soliloquy) and re-
> phrased throughout the movie sequels and the television series.
> So shrug off the TV show's short-comings. It's worth watching--and,
> more importantly, PONDERING.
>
> P.S. The supposed "double entendre" in "The Horse Race" DuPont cites
> is incorrect; Gregar responds to the line "Galen's our friend" with
> the line, "I'd like him to be MINE" (my emphasis). He wants to be
> friends with Galen--as Burke and Virdon are. He doesn't say "I'd like
> him to be MORE". I think DuPont is starting to hear things that aren't
> really there. It's too bad she wasn't able (it seems) to see things
> that really WERE there, under the surface.
> --Patrick Michael Tilton, 25 November 2001 (exactly 1,977 years prior
> to the EARTH-TIME date Chuck Heston glimpses in his sinking ship!)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/01 9:19:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Ugh. I wanted to not hate it. I hate to say I hated it.

Hey, join the club, though I've given up hating it and have just settled into profound disappointment.  It is what it is -- a product of the present 20th Century-Fox.  Look at the other dumb movies they produce now.  Burton's POTA's destiny is to be eclipsed by the classic it only paid half-hearted homage to.  The original still rules.
Maybe Fox will decide to do a sequel, and maybe it will be better.  Who knows?

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/01 11:34:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

--Patrick Michael Tilton, 25 November 2001 (exactly 1,977 years prior
to the EARTH-TIME date Chuck Heston glimpses in his sinking ship!)

Holy Ape Shit, Patrick!!!   Was that a long-winded email!   But you defended the TV show well.   And HEY!  It is November 25th, isn't it?  I wonder what the world will be like in 3978?   Do you think anyone will know of "Planet of the Apes"?

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/01 12:16:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 Interviews with Rick Baker give some clues. He wanted to do baboons and
even monkeys but time was so strained they decide to stick with the 3
principles. The script is such an "unimagination" that they seemed to follow
the basic blueprint of the originals, thus no females of the other species.
Thade's makeup was basically created with a built-in scowl. If there's one
thing you don't ask of Tim Burton, it's a subtle villian. I think the scene
where the child is given to the Thade's niece would be OK, but Roth's
overacting ruins it. The Heston scene would be OK but Burton throws in the
lines from the original at the most dramatic moment and RUINS it. I just
don't think he had the time to step back and take a good look. For the
record, Baker didn't like the female makeup but was required to do it, and
for no other reason I can tell but Burton's
    - - - Jeff

Yeah, you know we 'Super-APES fans' who hate the new movie feel so sorry for ourselves that we have to now live in a world that includes this new movie, but try to imagine the folks who made it -- they've got to see it for what it is, and I feel sorry for Baker.  Will he ever do the makeup for a classic like the original POTA?  

-- Rory<.html

In a message dated 11/23/01 11:36:18 PM Central Standard Time,
prophecysite@... writes:

<< I'll be back towards the end of 2002 for an all new POTA site, and
countdown. I really do need the break.
See ya all soon. >>

Well, have fun then. ;)

-Joe

In a message dated 11/25/01 11:46:54 AM Central Standard Time,
Haristas@... writes:

<< Do you think anyone will know of "Planet of
the Apes"?

-- Rory >>

Well, I think we'll be gone, probably. We haven't had a war lately, atleast
one that takes a lot of lives.... and we are WAY overdue for a nasty disease
outbreak...

-Joe

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/2001 10:51:02 AM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 From what I understand, "Star Wars" books have to be approved by Lucas'
company and supposedly are part of continuity but aren't allowed to enter
the time frame he uses for the movies.

                                                     - - - - Jeff

Like I said, I never read those books, so I really don't know how close they are to what was in the movies in terms of continuity. I will say this though: When that Episode One was being hyped, and Lucas was interviewed, someone asked him what SW canon is. He replied (something like) "Only the movies, the novelizations of the films, and the radio adaptions are canon." He did not include the other novels, or the comics either.

Now I could be wrong here, but by him not including the other SW books in there, that says to me that he just liscensed the SW name out to keep the interest up. He had no real input as to what the content of the stories are, and as to how they'd fit in with the established story lines. I think Lucasfilm's main objective is to keep the SW name out there in the public's conciousness (sp?) And if that their reason for allowing off story line books and merchandise to be made, I can see why they'd do it. Keep the name out there, and let the void be filled until the next "big" project comes along. Then not only do you have your devotees all primed up to support it, but you also get new followers of it along the way. If that is the reason he allows that type of merchandising, I can't blame him at all. I think it's pretty smart myself. Just think, George is getting his wallet lined on an ongoing basis allowing SW to be constantly merchandised, and like I said, it also creates an ongoing interest in his franchise, so then when his "actual" product is being released it already has a built in audience. There's no need to hype it, its basically sold before it even hit the theater. Yeah there are press things, etc..but they're not really a neccessity, they seem to be done as just extra PR. But anyway, my point is that since about '95 (?) when they reissued the classic SW action figures, it seems that SW merchandise has been out on an ongoing basis. And there is no doubt to me that by having the stuff out, it helped kids who may have seen the movies on video to become fans. They may not have had a new movie to see until Ep.1 was released, but they had toys, and they had other product to buy and read.

I know SW interest was down for quite awhile there, but look, they brought it back to the public even before the new movie was out, and if I'm thinking right, it was being marketed before SW's 20th anniversary. They got their money making machine back in action, and all are satisfied. The SW fan's cuz they get new product and movies, and they Lucasfilm, who gets more money.

I'll end this by saying that everything they did for SW should have been done for Apes. They should have kept the name out there all these years. I know Apes was "down" for quite awhile there, but it could have, and should have, been brought back a long time ago. But it seems Fox just likes to make a quick buck (POTA 2001) to get there money rather than having an ongoing, well marketed/merchandised franchise which would make them a lot more money in the long run.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/2001 7:19:43 AM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

And who was responsible for the 'look' of Booth Colman's Dr. Zaius?   What's with the hair?  It looks terrible.

What's wrong with the look of Counciler Zaius? I always thought his makeup looked pretty cool. But if you're talking about a few scenes in that episode, like at the end when he orders them to "Take care of the ship", then yeah, I'd agree, he looks a little ragged. But for the most part, I always liked the Zaius makeup.

Speaking of tv shows makeups, and I know I've mentioned it in here before, while I like "The Cure" episode, I don't like Dr. Zoran's makeup. "Why?", well because it is so inconsistant, its not even funny. He looks like 3 different apes in that episode. 3 examples: at the council meeting, when he goes to the village, and when they're out looking for the cinchona tree. He looks different in all 3 scenes. And all around worse makeup episode in my opinion goes to "The Good Seeds". I think the Anto and Zantes makeups are horrible.

And, again, I know I've said it in here before...but the Urko makeup is really well done, and so is Zaius (well most of the time.) And as far as "guest" apes, I think Aboro from "The Tyrant" is easily one of the best.<.html

For anyone who wants to reach me in the future.
My new e-mail address is calima5021com@...

Best and see you all later.

Al

_____

.html One thing that bothers me is that the show was too brightly lit in the interiors and you can see every detail of the makeup; where the appliances begin and end, the insides of the mouths, and the shine of bits of glue here and there.

-- Rory
<.html

I say we call him Patrick (because Patdick is borderline offensive!).

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton@...
[patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Monday, 26 November 2001 1:31
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Richard (call me Dick)


If you think I'm over-reacting... go ahead, call ME a "dick"--though I'd
prefer "richard", since that word is 7/4ths longer than the former!

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Alan Maxwell

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 2:06 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] New Movie Reaccessed

Rory <Haristas@...> wrote:
> Okay, so I've now watched POTA 2001 for a second time on DVD, this time
alone
> in my apartment with my surround sound and 32" TV.  You guys probably
aren't
> going to believe this, but I find this movie improving each time I see it.

I believe you, Rory! One thing that struck me about the film was that it
would probably improve slightly (though still be extremely flawed) on repeat
viewings. Of course, the ending still won't make any sense...

> I'm noticing subtleties of performance and
> picking up lines dialogue I missed the first couple of times that make it
> play much better.

I can't say I spotted any subtleties of performance the one time that I did
see it, but as I've said on this list before - one of the things that the
ending has in its favour is that for the first time in the whole film
Wahlberg actually looks genuinely shocked and scared. Shame it took until
the final scene to do so, most people probably didn't care by then.

>  I also think Burton did as good a job of directing it as
> the script would allow.  The script was the problem here, AND the female
> chimp look.

That's my opinion too. Script was the biggest flaw, female make-up was poor
(but then I wasn't that impressed with any of the make-up to be honest) and
as was just pointed out, the soundstage sets looked like exactly that -
soundstages.

There was definitely too much interference - seems that the bigwigs wanted
Burton to make their film, but not make a Burton film. Pointless.

Alan



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html <.html

.html

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 11:48 AM

Subject: [pota] ( OT ) Complaining about the "STARS"

In a message dated 11/25/2001 10:51:02 AM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 From what I understand, "Star Wars" books have to be approved by Lucas'
company and supposedly are part of continuity but aren't allowed to enter
the time frame he uses for the movies.

                                                     - - - - Jeff

Like I said, I never read those books, so I really don't know how close they are to what was in the movies in terms of continuity. I will say this though: When that Episode One was being hyped, and Lucas was interviewed, someone asked him what SW canon is. He replied (something like) "Only the movies, the novelizations of the films, and the radio adaptions are canon." He did not include the other novels, or the comics either.

Now I could be wrong here, but by him not including the other SW books in there, that says to me that he just liscensed the SW name out to keep the interest up. He had no real input as to what the content of the stories are, and as to how they'd fit in with the established story lines. I think Lucasfilm's main objective is to keep the SW name out there in the public's conciousness (sp?) And if that their reason for allowing off story line books and merchandise to be made, I can see why they'd do it. Keep the name out there, and let the void be filled until the next "big" project comes along. Then not only do you have your devotees all primed up to support it, but you also get new followers of it along the way. If that is the reason he allows that type of merchandising, I can't blame him at all. I think it's pretty smart myself. Just think, George is getting his wallet lined on an ongoing basis allowing SW to be constantly merchandised, and like I said, it also creates an ongoing interest in his franchise, so then when his "actual" product is being released it already has a built in audience. There's no need to hype it, its basically sold before it even hit the theater. Yeah there are press things, etc..but they're not really a neccessity, they seem to be done as just extra PR. But anyway, my point is that since about '95 (?) when they reissued the classic SW action figures, it seems that SW merchandise has been out on an ongoing basis. And there is no doubt to me that by having the stuff out, it helped kids who may have seen the movies on video to become fans. They may not have had a new movie to see until Ep.1 was released, but they had toys, and they had other product to buy and read.

I know SW interest was down for quite awhile there, but look, they brought it back to the public even before the new movie was out, and if I'm thinking right, it was being marketed before SW's 20th anniversary. They got their money making machine back in action, and all are satisfied. The SW fan's cuz they get new product and movies, and they Lucasfilm, who gets more money.

I'll end this by saying that everything they did for SW should have been done for Apes. They should have kept the name out there all these years. I know Apes was "down" for quite awhile there, but it could have, and should have, been brought back a long time ago. But it seems Fox just likes to make a quick buck (POTA 2001) to get there money rather than having an ongoing, well marketed/merchandised franchise which would make them a lot more money in the long run.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] TV Show DVDs

In a message dated 11/25/2001 7:19:43 AM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

And who was responsible for the 'look' of Booth Colman's Dr. Zaius?   What's with the hair?  It looks terrible.

What's wrong with the look of Counciler Zaius? I always thought his makeup looked pretty cool. But if you're talking about a few scenes in that episode, like at the end when he orders them to "Take care of the ship", then yeah, I'd agree, he looks a little ragged. But for the most part, I always liked the Zaius makeup.

Speaking of tv shows makeups, and I know I've mentioned it in here before, while I like "The Cure" episode, I don't like Dr. Zoran's makeup. "Why?", well because it is so inconsistant, its not even funny. He looks like 3 different apes in that episode. 3 examples: at the council meeting, when he goes to the village, and when they're out looking for the cinchona tree. He looks different in all 3 scenes. And all around worse makeup episode in my opinion goes to "The Good Seeds". I think the Anto and Zantes makeups are horrible.

And, again, I know I've said it in here before...but the Urko makeup is really well done, and so is Zaius (well most of the time.) And as far as "guest" apes, I think Aboro from "The Tyrant" is easily one of the best.

<.html

Alex doesn't live here anymore.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Calima 5021" <calima5021com@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:19 PM
Subject: [pota] Alex's New E-mail address


> For anyone who wants to reach me in the future.
> My new e-mail address is calima5021com@...
>
> Best and see you all later.
>
> Al
>
> _____

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Le Master

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:44 PM

Subject: [pota] 1968 rare PLANET OF THE APES Newspaper

I just wanted to post this link b/c this is really rare and I thought I would give you guys a heads up.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1487887171

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike Le Master

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:44 PM

Subject: [pota] 1968 rare PLANET OF THE APES Newspaper

I just wanted to post this link b/c this is really rare and I thought I would give you guys a heads up.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1487887171

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Easy there, Tolstoy!

Maybe you should put out a book, so I don't have to read it.

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/01 3:47:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, mslpel5@... writes:

I just wanted to post this link b/c this is really rare and I thought I would give you guys a heads up.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1487887171



I guess these things are rare now.  Maybe not.  I remember back in the seventies that whenever you bought a POTA pressbook you got one of these things.  I think I collected two of them from PLANET, but I only have one now.  I have one from each movie.

-- Rory<.html

.html

The script is such an "unimagination" that they seemed to follow
the basic blueprint of the originals, thus no females of the other species.

Maybe because they were so damned ugly.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/01 5:50:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 Hollywood Reporter says Fox has signed producer Ralph Winter for 2 more years. He was the company man on "X-Men" and POTA and is currently at work on "X-Men 2". Is there any doubt POTA 2 is in his future?               

                                                       - - - Jeff



Don't speak to me in absolutes!!  Everything is doubtful.<.html

Attachments :

.htmlWith all the talk here of what the new film made on its opening weekend, I thought you might be interested to look at this ad from Billboard Magazine in February 1968.  It's what PLANET made for the first five days of its release in just two theatres in NYC, from Feb. 8 -- 12, 1968.  Now remember in '68 these were big bucks!

See Attachment.

-- Rory<.html

.html

They did EXACTLY what they needed to do with the movie.

I agree on one point. If they had mad a film that eclipsed the original we'd be endanger of forgetting the original al together.  And I'm glad that didn't happen.

<<I don't know how anyone can complain about the make-up (except for maybe 2 of the lady apes).  Ari's makeup was just fine.>>

One you get over the eyebrows she is.  But I agree hers was one of the better ones.  Certainly the most expressive.  In the early scenes Roth has the British stiff upper lip thing going.  And both Duncan and Giamatti had trouble with their teeth.  Cary's did a great job with Krull in the facial department.  But his not really a bury guy so he looks like he's in football shoulder pads and he works the Ape School walk a bit too hard.  Whereas Duncan hardly does at all. 

<<This movie wasn't slapped together just to make money.  They were really serious about it and made it the best it could be.>>

I don't think even Burton would agree with that.  Best it could be given the script, the budget, the poor relationship between him and the studio, etc . . .etc . . .


<.html

In a message dated 11/25/01 2:46:45 PM Central Standard Time,
mslpel5@... writes:

<< But anyways, off that topic, I won the TV Series in a contest
yesterday!!! So I get to save a few bucks :)

>>

Congratulations.

I agree with you about the new movie, although some others might not.

-Joe

In a message dated 11/25/01 4:50:53 PM Central Standard Time,
veetus@... writes:

<< He was the company man on "X-Men" and POTA and is currently at work on
"X-Men 2". >>

Uh - (OT) I guess - Good, I liked the first X-MEN, so I'm glad they're
atleast at work on the second.

-Joe

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/2001 4:53:08 PM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

The new "Toyfare" says the new "Apes" figures were "poorly received" and the last 3 (Pericles, Krull and Ape Commander) are in lower quantities and higher production value. They say sets on e-bay are selling for $90. Does this mean they won't be at Toys R Us?

                                                     - - - - Jeff

Well, I have also seen these 3 going over well on eBay. Out of curiousity, (and yes, thinking I could buy them and eBay them myself,) I did look at Toys R Us and they didn't have any of them. As a matter of fact, the first run figures are all on closeout. While I'm no collector of the new stuff, my feeling is that these last three you mentioned will end up being like the last three of the 12" Classic Apes figures by Hasbro in the sense that they really won't hit the stores, and will basically be sold by secondary sellers.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/01 7:14:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

I agree on one point. If they had made a film that eclipsed the original we'd be endanger of forgetting the original all together.  And I'm glad that didn't happen.

Excuse me, but that seems a pretty stupid thing to say.  How I wish they'd made a film that eclipsed the original, then we'd have an excellent movie we APES fans could be proud of.  But nothing would eclipse the original with me -- it ain't 1968 and I'm not eight years old anymore.  The movies you see as a kid are magical, and there's no getting that back.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/01 7:20:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, CheeseGOTAS@... writes:

In a message dated 11/25/01 4:50:53 PM Central Standard Time,
veetus@... writes:

<< He was the company man on "X-Men" and POTA and is currently at work on
"X-Men 2". >>

Uh - (OT) I guess - Good, I liked the first X-MEN, so I'm glad they're
atleast at work on the second.

-Joe

I hear X-MEN 2 is having problems, script problems I think.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/2001 5:39:14 PM Central Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Easy there, Tolstoy!

Maybe you should put out a book, so I don't have to read it.

I thought his piece regarding all of what that reviewer said was pretty much right on. It's too bad more people didn't take things a little more seriously. I mean he actually sat down, and put some thought into what was written and posted. That's my peeve here sometimes. It seems like no one wants to seriously discuss Apes. Half the time it's a bunch of "one liners" and way off topic postings. Those aren't always bad, and are to be expected anywhere, but still, I think it  gets off topic too much at times.

Now I'm sure a lot of you are thinking, "If you don't like it, leave." Well, I don't hate the group postings, and have no plans to leave the group now, but I would like the talk to be more Apes oriented than it  is at times. And writings like he posted are a good start as to what should be posted more often.<.html

.html <.html

Maybe I've been reading the script too much, but I could have sworn I saw in
theatres a scene in Burton's POTA where after Thade leaves Ari (after the
dinner), it is Attar who tells Thade his soldiers have something to tell him
instead of the soliders approaching Thade directly. This scene isn't in the
bootleg DVD or the official release.
Anyone else remember this scene?

Dan


I don't know about that. But the other day I had to exchange my POTA 2001
DVD for another. (some kind of defect occured in the disc) Well anyhow, the
new DVD I picked up had 3 DISKS instead of 2.

2 DVD DISCS AND 1 CD-ROM.
Outstanding! This disc has everything from the official Wed Site as far as
media files PLUS A WHOLE LOT MORE!
Charton Heston Spot and interview clip, Images (never seen before)
Wallpapers (never seen before) TONS OF FUN AND OUTSTANDING MENUS!

SEMOS LIKES ME, HE REALLY REALLY LIKES HE!! :o)
YEEEEEE HAAAAAA!!!

Next time you go to your DVD retail store, check out the new labels on the
POTA DVD covers. (CD-ROM INSIDE!)

Happy Holidays everyone.
And may Semos smile on you all as well!!

Best.
Al



_____

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/01 8:05:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

I thought his piece regarding all of what that reviewer said was pretty much right on. It's too bad more people didn't take things a little more seriously. I mean he actually sat down, and put some thought into what was written and posted. That's my peeve here sometimes. It seems like no one wants to seriously discuss Apes. Half the time it's a bunch of "one liners" and way off topic postings. Those aren't always bad, and are to be expected anywhere, but still, I think it  gets off topic too much at times.

I can discuss APES for hours and in depth, but I gave up trying to do it here a long time ago.  It seems what most everyone cares about most is where can I find this, or do you have that, can I get it cheaper here or there?  To me what's interesting about POTA is not the latest Medicom figure or Apes Band-Aids, it's the ideas in the book and movies.  BUT, people being just human. . . well there you have it.

-- Rory<.html

I thought "X-Men" was like "Apes", rushed and coulda been better. It's
become the Ralph Winter School of filmmaking: take a poular franchise, add a
personable young filmmaker, rush the hell out of it and make sure the ads
look cold and metallic. Big opening and a quick falloff.

- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <CheeseGOTAS@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: [pota] Winter of our discontent


> In a message dated 11/25/01 4:50:53 PM Central Standard Time,
> veetus@... writes:
>
> << He was the company man on "X-Men" and POTA and is currently at work on
> "X-Men 2". >>
>
> Uh - (OT) I guess - Good, I liked the first X-MEN, so I'm glad they're
> atleast at work on the second.
>
> -Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 5:03 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Re: DVD Journal: Planet of the Apes: The Complete TV Series

In a message dated 11/25/2001 5:39:14 PM Central Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Easy there, Tolstoy!

Maybe you should put out a book, so I don't have to read it.

I thought his piece regarding all of what that reviewer said was pretty much right on. It's too bad more people didn't take things a little more seriously. I mean he actually sat down, and put some thought into what was written and posted. That's my peeve here sometimes. It seems like no one wants to seriously discuss Apes. Half the time it's a bunch of "one liners" and way off topic postings. Those aren't always bad, and are to be expected anywhere, but still, I think it  gets off topic too much at times.

Now I'm sure a lot of you are thinking, "If you don't like it, leave." Well, I don't hate the group postings, and have no plans to leave the group now, but I would like the talk to be more Apes oriented than it  is at times. And writings like he posted are a good start as to what should be posted more often.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Calima 5021

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 8:59 PM

Subject: [pota] Re: Missing scene?

Maybe I've been reading the script too much, but I could have sworn I saw in
theatres a scene in Burton's POTA where after Thade leaves Ari (after the
dinner), it is Attar who tells Thade his soldiers have something to tell him
instead of the soliders approaching Thade directly.  This scene isn't in the
bootleg DVD or the official release.
Anyone else remember this scene?

Dan


I don't know about that. But the other day I had to exchange my POTA 2001
DVD for another. (some kind of defect occured in the disc) Well anyhow, the
new DVD I picked up had 3 DISKS instead of 2.

2 DVD DISCS AND 1 CD-ROM.
Outstanding! This disc has everything from the official Wed Site as far as
media files PLUS A WHOLE LOT MORE!
Charton Heston Spot and interview clip, Images (never seen before)
Wallpapers (never seen before) TONS OF FUN AND OUTSTANDING MENUS!

SEMOS LIKES ME, HE REALLY REALLY LIKES HE!! :o)
YEEEEEE HAAAAAA!!!

Next time you go to your DVD retail store, check out the new labels on the
POTA DVD covers. (CD-ROM INSIDE!)

Happy Holidays everyone.
And may Semos smile on you all as well!!

Best.
Al



_____Get

.htmlClick here: The DVD Journal: Planet of the Apes: The Evolution (complete series)

Here's the review that chick who wrote about the TV series did last year on the original series.  Some of you may never have seen this.  She's a little rough on the films and she calls Roddy a bad name, but it's interesting.

-- Rory<.html

.html

<< He was the company man on "X-Men" and POTA and is currently at work on
"X-Men 2". >>

Uh - (OT) I guess - Good, I liked the first X-MEN, so I'm glad they're
atleast at work on the second.

Yeah, I saw it on cable this Thanksgiving.  I enjoyed it.  I don't see the POTA sequel costing any more than an X Men movie now that it's in a modern setting.
<.html

.html

Excuse me, but that seems a pretty stupid thing to say.

Intelligence often seems stupid to the ignorant.
You are not excused.<.html

In a message dated 11/25/01 5:52:58 PM, veetus@... writes:

<< The new "Toyfare" says the new "Apes" figures were "poorly received" and
the last 3 (Pericles, Krull and Ape Commander) are in lower quantities and
higher production value. They say sets on e-bay are selling for $90. Does
this mean they won't be at Toys R Us? >>

I got mine for around $30 on eBay. I think the buy was pissed that he got
such a low bid and tried to screw me over by jacking up the shipping price. I
chastised him for it and he relented. Hooray for me.

Matt

.html

I thought his piece regarding all of what that reviewer said was pretty much right on. It's too bad more people didn't take things a little more seriously.

Easy there Tiger, er uh Cougar.

I just meant to say that when going through the posts I haven't time to read War & Peace, and I prefer long posts broken up into a few parts as others have done in the past.  Or I guess I could print them and take the to the reading room (aka the crapper)<.html

.html

I could have sworn I saw in
theatres a scene in Burton's POTA where after Thade leaves Ari (after the
dinner), it is Attar who tells Thade his soldiers have something to tell him
instead of the soliders approaching Thade directly.

Never happened.  If it did the line, "A moment Sir." would be superfluous.  And I distinctly remember that line since the first viewing.  Someone else said they remember when Ari said, "I have so many questions." Leo replying, "Get in line." instead of, Me too.  It's been my experience that peoples memories are faulty.  Even my own at times.  I think that's the case here unless Burton rushed unfinished prints to theaters for the openings and then replaced the a day or two later.  A possibility I find highly unlikely.

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 7:18 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Winter of our discontent

<< He was the company man on "X-Men" and POTA and is currently at work on
"X-Men 2". >>

Uh - (OT) I guess - Good, I liked the first X-MEN, so I'm glad they're
atleast at work on the second.

Yeah, I saw it on cable this Thanksgiving.  I enjoyed it.  I don't see the POTA sequel costing any more than an X Men movie now that it's in a modern setting.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html <.html

.html
<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/26/2001 3:07:36 AM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

So would Apes sell toys if they had done it right

You'd not only have to do the movie right, but the toys as well.  In this age of scanning there is no excuse for figures that don't look like who they're supposed to be, in exacting detail.  It's just cheapness.  They don't respect the consumer.<.html

In a message dated 11/25/01 8:21:20 PM Central Standard Time,
veetus@... writes:

<< I thought "X-Men" was like "Apes", rushed and coulda been better. >>

It would've helped if it was a bit longer, but I thought it was fine
all-around.

-Joe

In a message dated 11/25/01 9:04:47 PM Central Standard Time,
Haristas@... writes:

<< She's a little
rough on the films and she calls Roddy a bad name, but it's interesting. >>

Insulting Roddy?! Who would do that to a great guy?

-Joe

.htmlOk, since no one bothered to post anything today (if they did, I didn't receive it,) I guess I will be the one to do it...

When I questioned if it was indeed Ron Stein who was Mc Dowall's Galen double, and I said that I couldn't think of the name, but heard it was somebody else doing the doubling, Jeff said this to me:

Look sir, Bill used to hang around on the set and he SAW Ron do the Galen dirty work.

Well ok, if this is true, and Ron was always the Galen double, tell me this: How can he be both Galen AND a gorilla cart guard in "The Surgeon" episode, at the same time? Give it a look, the scene where Pete and Galen hijack the cart, it is Ron who is playing the gorilla, and it is Ron who gets kicked in the back by Galen.

Don't believe me? Get out your dvd and in chapter 4 have your remote ready.  (Be ready to slow forward, and pause.) Look at it at 09:07 when Galen appears, and 09:08 when you freeze frame advance it, you can clearly see that is Ron Stein as the gorilla, and that isn't him as Galen.





<.html

Hey someone may have mentioned this before.
The POTA poster on That 70's Show . . .
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that particular poster wasn't available in the
70's.

.htmlIn a message dated 11/27/01 10:50:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Hey someone may have mentioned this before.
The POTA poster on That 70's Show . . .
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that particular poster wasn't available in the

Yeah, I mentioned this before, and yes that poster is a reprint of the British Quad for PLANET.  Somebody started printing them a few years ago.  I bought one and it's a terrible reproduction, the images are really blurry, and the poster says "Introducing Linda Harrison as 'Nora'."   You'll see them for sale on eBay all the time.  Avoid them.

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:24 PM

Subject: [pota] Stein as Galen (part 2)

Ok, since no one bothered to post anything today (if they did, I didn't receive it,) I guess I will be the one to do it...

When I questioned if it was indeed Ron Stein who was Mc Dowall's Galen double, and I said that I couldn't think of the name, but heard it was somebody else doing the doubling, Jeff said this to me:

Look sir, Bill used to hang around on the set and he SAW Ron do the Galen dirty work.

Well ok, if this is true, and Ron was always the Galen double, tell me this: How can he be both Galen AND a gorilla cart guard in "The Surgeon" episode, at the same time? Give it a look, the scene where Pete and Galen hijack the cart, it is Ron who is playing the gorilla, and it is Ron who gets kicked in the back by Galen.

Don't believe me? Get out your dvd and in chapter 4 have your remote ready.  (Be ready to slow forward, and pause.) Look at it at 09:07 when Galen appears, and 09:08 when you freeze frame advance it, you can clearly see that is Ron Stein as the gorilla, and that isn't him as Galen.







Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

In a message dated 11/27/01 7:26:02 PM Central Standard Time,
mlccougar@... writes:

<< Ok, since no one bothered to post anything today (if they did, I didn't
receive it,) I guess I will be the one to do it...

>>

Maybe Alex really has left?

-Joe

.html<.html

Maybe Alex really has left?

-Joe


No, I'm still here Joe.
I'm just taking it easy for a while as far as posting and web hosting.
I'll have my site back up in late 2002, I just had to remove the contents
beacuse knowing myself I'll continue getting involved, Starting up a Star
Wars Episode II section was clear evidence of that.
So now this way if there's nothing there, there's nothing to keep working
on.

I'm just chilling and keeping up with comments here on the group from time
to time.

Best.
Al


_____

In a message dated 11/28/01 4:39:41 PM Central Standard Time,
calima5021com@... writes:

<< No, I'm still here Joe.
I'm just taking it easy for a while as far as posting and web hosting.
I'll have my site back up in late 2002, I just had to remove the contents
beacuse knowing myself I'll continue getting involved, Starting up a Star
Wars Episode II section was clear evidence of that.
So now this way if there's nothing there, there's nothing to keep working
on.

I'm just chilling and keeping up with comments here on the group from time
to time.

Best.
Al >>

That's good to hear. I was worried for a second, but I'm glad to see that
you're still checking the messages. Good deal. :)

-Joe

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 6:45 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Stein as Galen (part 2)

  Bill says that for the most part it was Ron Stein doubling for Galen, but sometimes they had to use another. Bill believes this might have been R.A. Rondell on occasion. Presumably they wanted Ron Stein to play gorillas when push came to shove. Quit splitting hairs. There are such things as "utility" stuntmen on call sheets who are plugged into roles as required and that's why they're there. Stunts have been Bill's business (in part) and he spent much time on the set. 

 

                                                           - - - Jeff

 

 

 

                                  

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:24 PM

Subject: [pota] Stein as Galen (part 2)

Ok, since no one bothered to post anything today (if they did, I didn't receive it,) I guess I will be the one to do it...

When I questioned if it was indeed Ron Stein who was Mc Dowall's Galen double, and I said that I couldn't think of the name, but heard it was somebody else doing the doubling, Jeff said this to me:

Look sir, Bill used to hang around on the set and he SAW Ron do the Galen dirty work.

Well ok, if this is true, and Ron was always the Galen double, tell me this: How can he be both Galen AND a gorilla cart guard in "The Surgeon" episode, at the same time? Give it a look, the scene where Pete and Galen hijack the cart, it is Ron who is playing the gorilla, and it is Ron who gets kicked in the back by Galen.

Don't believe me? Get out your dvd and in chapter 4 have your remote ready.  (Be ready to slow forward, and pause.) Look at it at 09:07 when Galen appears, and 09:08 when you freeze frame advance it, you can clearly see that is Ron Stein as the gorilla, and that isn't him as Galen.







Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 6:45 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Stein as Galen (part 2)

  Bill says that for the most part it was Ron Stein doubling for Galen, but sometimes they had to use another. Bill believes this might have been R.A. Rondell on occasion. Presumably they wanted Ron Stein to play gorillas when push came to shove. Quit splitting hairs. There are such things as "utility" stuntmen on call sheets who are plugged into roles as required and that's why they're there. Stunts have been Bill's business (in part) and he spent much time on the set. 

 

                                                           - - - Jeff

 

 

 

                                  

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 5:24 PM

Subject: [pota] Stein as Galen (part 2)

Ok, since no one bothered to post anything today (if they did, I didn't receive it,) I guess I will be the one to do it...

When I questioned if it was indeed Ron Stein who was Mc Dowall's Galen double, and I said that I couldn't think of the name, but heard it was somebody else doing the doubling, Jeff said this to me:

Look sir, Bill used to hang around on the set and he SAW Ron do the Galen dirty work.

Well ok, if this is true, and Ron was always the Galen double, tell me this: How can he be both Galen AND a gorilla cart guard in "The Surgeon" episode, at the same time? Give it a look, the scene where Pete and Galen hijack the cart, it is Ron who is playing the gorilla, and it is Ron who gets kicked in the back by Galen.

Don't believe me? Get out your dvd and in chapter 4 have your remote ready.  (Be ready to slow forward, and pause.) Look at it at 09:07 when Galen appears, and 09:08 when you freeze frame advance it, you can clearly see that is Ron Stein as the gorilla, and that isn't him as Galen.







Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

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What the Flocking Christmas trees is this!

That's good to hear. I was worried for a second, but I'm glad to see that
you're still checking the messages. Good deal. :)

-Joe


Thanks Joe.

Here's a little POTA T.V. trivia.
In the POTA T.V. Episode "The Gladiators" Roddy McDowall seems to be doubled
in some scenes. (non related stunt scenes) Can anyone find the scenes? And
for those who are well informed with the episodes, can you explain why this
happened?

Find the scenes.
It makes for a cool POTA trivia game.

Best.
Al


_____

Ask Jeff.

Got the DVD yet Veetus?

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
> Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2001 15:52
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [pota] Cash Rewards Program
>
>
>
>
> What the Flocking Christmas trees is this!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes because it was in Roddy's contract that his face would be allowed to
"rest". So they shot his dialogue first and the double took up the slack. I
think we already went through this.

- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Calima 5021" <calima5021com@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:27 PM
Subject: [pota] POTA T.V. Trivia


> That's good to hear. I was worried for a second, but I'm glad to see that
> you're still checking the messages. Good deal. :)
>
> -Joe
>
>
> Thanks Joe.
>
> Here's a little POTA T.V. trivia.
> In the POTA T.V. Episode "The Gladiators" Roddy McDowall seems to be
doubled
> in some scenes. (non related stunt scenes) Can anyone find the scenes? And
> for those who are well informed with the episodes, can you explain why
this
> happened?
>
> Find the scenes.
> It makes for a cool POTA trivia game.
>
> Best.
> Al
>
>
> _____

No sir, I didn't. So I bought my own the other day and if they send me one
I will take that one back to the store. Meanwhile, I wanted to make sure I
got that CD-Rom, which isn't in all of them.

- - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 12:15 AM
Subject: [pota] Cash Rewards Program


> Ask Jeff.
>
> Got the DVD yet Veetus?
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2001 15:52
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [pota] Cash Rewards Program
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > What the Flocking Christmas trees is this!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

No sir, I didn't. So I bought my own the other day and if they send me one
I will take that one back to the store. Meanwhile, I wanted to make sure I
got that CD-Rom, which isn't in all of them.


Hey Jeff,

How can I be sure I'm getting one with a CD-ROM?
Are they marked with a sticker or something.

.html

Michael,

POTA Soapers on the way.
When they get here, I'll pass them along.
Please resend your info.

For those interested, follow this link . . .
Scivolutions.com Online Store: Planet Of the Apes Soaper
http://scivolutions.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SOS&Product_Code=POTAS <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/29/01 1:46:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Michael,

POTA Soapers on the way.
When they get here, I'll pass them along.
Please resend your info.

For those interested, follow this link . . .
Scivolutions.com Online Store: Planet Of the Apes Soaper

http://scivolutions.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SOS&Product_Code=POTAS


Hey, that looks like a turd I made once!

-- Rory the turd maker<.html

.htmlHey Jeff, where did you find that info about how APES has been selling on Video?  I've been trying to find stuff on it on the web, but no can do.  $80 million is not bad.  I'll bet they'll make a lot more when the price of the VHS is reduced.  I guess this means that POTA 2001 has made over $400 Million world-wide so far.  That may be enough to greenlight a sequel.

I can't believe so many have bought that "Grinch" movie.  I guess people think they're getting something as charming as the classic 1966 cartoon -- which I've bought on DVD -- but that movie is dreadful, truly dreadful.

-- Rory<.html

In a message dated 11/29/01 12:56:12 PM Central Standard Time,
Haristas@... writes:

<< Hey, that looks like a turd I made once!

-- Rory the turd maker >>


...Ugh...

....

....Right...

-Joe

In a message dated 11/29/01 1:23:30 PM Central Standard Time,
Haristas@... writes:

<< I can't believe so many have bought that "Grinch" movie. I guess people
think they're getting something as charming as the classic 1966 cartoon --
which I've bought on DVD -- but that movie is dreadful, truly dreadful.

-- Rory

>>

Yeah, it wasn't too great, but I do have a 5 foot tall Grinch cardboard
cut-out with glowing eyes in my room! I got it for a present, and It's
pretty cool.

-Joe

I can't believe so many have bought that "Grinch" movie. I guess people
think they're getting something as charming as the classic 1966 cartoon --
which I've bought on DVD -- but that movie is dreadful, truly dreadful.

-- Rory


"Oh No! The gifts, they'll be destroyed!"
"And I care!"

"WHAT IT THE DEAL?!" :o)

I love it!
It gets better everytime.

Best.
Al


_____

Yes because it was in Roddy's contract that his face would be allowed to
"rest". So they shot his dialogue first and the double took up the slack. I
think we already went through this.

- - - Jeff


Thanks Jeff.
I must have missed that.

Best.
Al

_____

How can I be sure I'm getting one with a CD-ROM?
Are they marked with a sticker or something.


Just open the pack when no one is looking! :o)
Or just check for the label on the cover like I did.

Best.
Al

_____

Good Lord,

The ones with the CD-Rom have a sticker that say "CD Rom enclosed". The
cardboard holder inside says it's a "limited edition". I guess we're still
trying to figure out how limited it is. Looks pretty
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [pota] Cash Rewards Program


> No sir, I didn't. So I bought my own the other day and if they send me
one
> I will take that one back to the store. Meanwhile, I wanted to make sure I
> got that CD-Rom, which isn't in all of them.
>
>
> Hey Jeff,
>
> How can I be sure I'm getting one with a CD-ROM?
> Are they marked with a sticker or something.
>
>
>
>
>
>

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----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:19 AM

Subject: [pota] POTA DVD sales

Hey Jeff, where did you find that info about how APES has been selling on Video?  I've been trying to find stuff on it on the web, but no can do.  $80 million is not bad.  I'll bet they'll make a lot more when the price of the VHS is reduced.  I guess this means that POTA 2001 has made over $400 Million world-wide so far.  That may be enough to greenlight a sequel.

I can't believe so many have bought that "Grinch" movie.  I guess people think they're getting something as charming as the classic 1966 cartoon -- which I've bought on DVD -- but that movie is dreadful, truly dreadful.

-- Rory

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