> Also, remember that the history from the 'secret scrolls' is wrong.
> Cornelius state it takes 500 years for apes to go from pets to slaves
> to overthrowing mankind. It in Beneath its evident that human
> civilization was destroyed in the 20th century not the 25th.

> Patrick - -
>

>

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 6:19 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name
>
>
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > Patrick - - -
> > The apes refer to "gods" throughout the TV show, not just in
> > "Tomorrow's Tide". Probably a way to sugar coat it. Can't have apes
> > referring to "God" on a kid's show. What would the Bible Belt think?
> > This way they could say, "See, Jimmy? Those apes don't read their
> > Bible. God has shunned them".
> > - - - Jeff
> >
> > Jeff - - -
> > You use the phrase "throughout the TV show"; as far as I can recall,
> > the topic of religion was rarely addressed in the show. The
> > "Tomorrow's Tide" episode has references to sharks being "the gods of
> > the sea", and in "The Liberator" there's reference (I think--I'll have
> > to double-check) to "gods", and that's about it for polytheism: two
> > podunk communities, each one relatively distant from the Central City
> > area, and dominated by superstitious folks. Urko, in "Escape From
> > Tomorrow" makes two references to religion: at Virdon & Burke's trial,
> > he says that Virdon's belief ["all intelligent creatures should live
> > together as equals"] is "sacrilege and heresy"--and from this there's
> > no indication as to the number of deities worshipped by the
> > "mainstream" simian community--and after Galen is arrested and caught
> > with Farrow's book, Urko refers to him as "a liar and a heretic"--
> > again, no indication given as to whether or not Urko (and his fellow
> > apes) believe in "One God" or in a pantheon of Gods.
> > I'll have to watch 'em all again, cataloguing every reference to
> > "God", "gods", "heresy", etc. in order to see whether or not it is
> > reasonable to conclude that ALL the people (apes and humans) in the
> > Central City-dominated area believe in a plurality of deities.
> > Frankly, I don't think it IS reasonable to conclude this based on the
> > evidence so far. The religion practiced by "The Liberator" is
> > purposely contrived (via an insider's knowledge of the petroleum fumes
> > present in the "cave"/"temple") in order to further an agenda and to
> > also provide a "smoke-screen" to keep curious people away from the
> > secrets kept in the cave; and this religion in no way resembles what
> > any mainstream simian religion would be--after all, would the
> > mainstream ape community allow a HUMAN to officiate at a religious
> > ceremony? No friggin' way. The apes allow this bizarre human-
> > officiated religion to be practiced as long as they get their quota of
> > slaves. Given the "look" of the mask the "high priest" wears, the
> > "gods" they worship don't look either human or simian; I'd bed that if
> > the apes thought these "gods" were anthropomorphic (and not
> > pithecomorphic, i.e. "ape-shaped"), they would make it a capital
> > offense to practice that religion.
> > Remember how Honorius (in Taylor's trial) refers to the "First Article
> > of Faith"... that "God created the APE in His own image... gave him a
> > soul and a mind... set him apart from the beasts of the jungle, and
> > made him the lord of the planet"? Virdon's advocacy of EQUALITY for
> > apes and humans goes against this doctrine--a doctrine that Galen had
> > believed all his life until then ("Apes have always ruled the world...
> > ALWAYS!"). This suggests that Galen believed the same "article of
> > Faith" that Honorius would mention 9 centuries later. Given that
> > almost everything about the simian civilization in 3085 is identical
> > to that in 3955 (same clothing designs, same level of technology--
> > excepting for photography and blood-transfusions, same type of rock-
> > hewn dwelling places, etc.), it is reasonable to conclude that the
> > mainstream ape society in 3085 follows the same religion as in 3955,
> > the one addendum being that humans have yet to be driven "back into
> > their jungle lair" (as is advocated/ordered by "the Lawgiver" in the
> > Sacred Scrolls, 29th scroll, 6th verse); in 3085, humans are used as
> > slave labor, allowed to dwell amongst the ruling apes. THE Lawgiver
> > (i.e. the one who writes "Beware the beast Man..."), the one later on
> > referred to as "the greatest ape of all" by Zaius, must have come
> > along AFTER 3085 (or, perhaps, he's "at work" in the Ape world during
> > the time that Virdon & Burke are there as fugitives). In other words,
> > though the oldest of the canonical "Sacred Scrolls" are dated "1200
> > years" prior to 3955 (c. 2755), the most recent canonical additions (a
> > sort of "New Testament" to the former "Old Testament") could have been
> > written LATER than 2755... even as late as the year 3085 and
> > following. Perhaps it was in order to counter the "interference" of
> > Virdon and Burke (who were imparting their "science" to benefit humans
> > and apes) that the last prophet of the simian God, "the greatest ape
> > of all, our Lawgiver" wrote what would end up being the last (and most
> > important) of their canonical scriptures (just as Mohammed is
> > considered by Muslims as the LAST of Allah's prophets); and, just like
> > Mohammed, he promulgates a severe, intolerant doctrine regarding those
> > who are considered NOT to be "God's chosen".
> > Just something to think about...
> >
> > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > EARTH-TIME 2-17-2002
> >
> > P.S. "There are monkeyboys in the facility..."
> >
> >
> > Regarding the "gods" mentioned in the TV show, it isn't a certainty
> > that the entire Ape civilization shared the polytheistic belief system
> > that the fishing community in "Tomorrow's Tide" held. I don't see the
> > main Simian society worshipping a "pantheon" of deities, like the
> > Egyptian/Greek/Roman civilizations did; in BATTLE, the "Lawgiver"
> > (whom I've named--after "The Cure" reference--"Ornan") reads from a
> > "history scroll" which by 3955 is no longer known save by Zaius, and
> > he says, "In the beginning, God created Beast and Man, so that both
> > might live in friendship and share dominion over a world at peace; but
> > in the fullness of time, evil men betrayed God's trust..." etc. It
> > seems evident that this monotheistic religion (which Caesar said--to
> > MacDonald in CONQUEST--the apes would create) represents the
> > 'mainstream' religion from the time of Caesar (1991-to-2018 and
> > following) until at least 2670. Something happens during the next 85
> > years to prompt another "Lawgiver" (whom I've named "Doswa", in
> > reference to Effinger's novelization of "The Surgeon") to re-write the
> > "sacred history" of the Apes, erasing any references to human
> > civilization/language/enslavement-of-apes/etc. If some isolated
> > communities (like the fishing village in "Tomorrow's Tide" or the
> > human tribe in "The Liberator") have their own less-sophisticated
> > polytheistic religions, that doesn't mean that the entire Ape "world"
> > shares those beliefs.
> > Just my two cents...
> >
> > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > EARTH-TIME 2-13-2002
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
Here's what Hassein had to say in "Escape", as written by Mr. Paul
Dehn:
"... time is like a freeway with an infinite number of lanes, all
leading from the past into the future; however, not into the same
future".
And Virgil says in "Battle", "I believe that time is like an endless
motorway with an infinite number of lanes all running from the past
into the future".
Doesn't sound like a circular point of view to me.
- - - Jeff
>
And Armando--in opposition to Hasslein (who wants to change the
future, though he doesn't know if God ["if there IS a god"] intends
for Man's future to be the one experienced by Cornelius and Zira or
not)--says "I hate those who try to alter destiny, which is the
unalterable Will of God..."
If the Future IS "unalterable", then nothing Hasslein does, nothing
Caesar attempts, nothing ANYBODY does, will change it. Just as Herod
tried to keep prophecies from coming true by murdering children 2-
years-old and younger, so too does Hasslein try to kill the Ape-onauts
and their unborn child. [Mind you, I don't believe that that Bible
story is actually historically true; there's no evidence outside of
that one "gospel" that Herod ever did such a thing--the Romans never
mention it, and Josephus never mentions it either; it was probably
invented to give Jesus a birth/childhood similar to Moses, who also
was targeted by the Pharaoh, yet was saved in a basket amongst the
bulrushes...]
Not only is the PLANET saga "circular" (I think), but it is the very
essence of the "vicious circle", a cycle of racial violence out of
which we seem to be doomed never to emerge. That's Eric Greene's take
on it, anyway (read his great book PLANET OF THE APES AS AMERICAN
MYTH). Caesar wants to "jump" the wagon-wheel of history out of its
"rut" by changing the world for the better ("I know what I want to
change," he says)... but his statue sheds tears at the end, after a
fight between a chimp and a human girl... a not-so-subtle hint that
interspecies conflict--racial conflict--would still erupt like warts
and pimples every so often, blemishing the face of the world. And that
ALPHA OMEGA bomb is still out there... waiting for somebody to
detonate it--Mendez doesn't dismantle it or disarm it; he suggests
that Alma (and the rest of the "mutants") begin to revere it... with
apocalyptic consequences (BENEATH).
Personally, from a philosophical point-of-view, I think that it is
right to "defy God" and try to change a Future intended for us that we
might not particularly prefer. I'm on the side of Caesar, and Hasslein
(in a less murderous way): I don't think that the Christian/Jewish/
Islamic notion of post-apocalyptic Eternity is a good one. Humanity is
to "submit itself" to the Will of God (according to all three of the
so-called "great religions")... but the God of the Bible (or the
Quran) is an unlikable tyrant who created the Human race to be slave
labor... and who (if "God" gets His way) will be returned to such a
state, giving "service" and "worship" to God for all Time... When Adam
& Eve made clothing for themselves, they were defying the will of the
gods (according to Sumerian myth--the antecedent of all the
monotheistic religions which followed--nakedness was a sign of
servility; animals, beasts of burden, were naked, as was the human
race, until they became aware of their servile status and rebelled.
Just as the "gods" were clothed, so too would Adapa (the Sumerian
"Adam") wear clothing, in essence declaring himself to be no slave of
the gods, but free.
I think that the prophecied future that Christians wish to come to
pass promises to be wretched. All the "end-time prophecies" declare
that God (or His angels) will commit mass murder, wiping out not only
most of the human life prior to Judgment Day, but also the animal and
plant life of this planet. What right does any being--even God--have,
to arbitrarily murder whole populations? As far as I'm concerned, not
even "God" has the right to violate His own commandment not to "kill/
commit murder" just because some people refuse to worship Him. Such a
"god" is just a "fuhrer" with way-too-much power.
Yeah, I tend to rant...

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 2-23-2002

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 10:30 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Out of the mouths of babes


> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Here's what Hassein had to say in "Escape", as written by Mr. Paul
> Dehn:
> "... time is like a freeway with an infinite number of lanes, all
> leading from the past into the future; however, not into the same
> future".
> And Virgil says in "Battle", "I believe that time is like an endless
> motorway with an infinite number of lanes all running from the past
> into the future".
> Doesn't sound like a circular point of view to me.
> - - - Jeff
> >
> And Armando--in opposition to Hasslein (who wants to change the
> future, though he doesn't know if God ["if there IS a god"] intends
> for Man's future to be the one experienced by Cornelius and Zira or
> not)--says "I hate those who try to alter destiny, which is the
> unalterable Will of God..."
> If the Future IS "unalterable", then nothing Hasslein does, nothing
> Caesar attempts, nothing ANYBODY does, will change it. Just as Herod
> tried to keep prophecies from coming true by murdering children 2-
> years-old and younger, so too does Hasslein try to kill the Ape-onauts
> and their unborn child. [Mind you, I don't believe that that Bible
> story is actually historically true; there's no evidence outside of
> that one "gospel" that Herod ever did such a thing--the Romans never
> mention it, and Josephus never mentions it either; it was probably
> invented to give Jesus a birth/childhood similar to Moses, who also
> was targeted by the Pharaoh, yet was saved in a basket amongst the
> bulrushes...]
> Not only is the PLANET saga "circular" (I think), but it is the very
> essence of the "vicious circle", a cycle of racial violence out of
> which we seem to be doomed never to emerge. That's Eric Greene's take
> on it, anyway (read his great book PLANET OF THE APES AS AMERICAN
> MYTH). Caesar wants to "jump" the wagon-wheel of history out of its
> "rut" by changing the world for the better ("I know what I want to
> change," he says)... but his statue sheds tears at the end, after a
> fight between a chimp and a human girl... a not-so-subtle hint that
> interspecies conflict--racial conflict--would still erupt like warts
> and pimples every so often, blemishing the face of the world. And that
> ALPHA OMEGA bomb is still out there... waiting for somebody to
> detonate it--Mendez doesn't dismantle it or disarm it; he suggests
> that Alma (and the rest of the "mutants") begin to revere it... with
> apocalyptic consequences (BENEATH).
> Personally, from a philosophical point-of-view, I think that it is
> right to "defy God" and try to change a Future intended for us that we
> might not particularly prefer. I'm on the side of Caesar, and Hasslein
> (in a less murderous way): I don't think that the Christian/Jewish/
> Islamic notion of post-apocalyptic Eternity is a good one. Humanity is
> to "submit itself" to the Will of God (according to all three of the
> so-called "great religions")... but the God of the Bible (or the
> Quran) is an unlikable tyrant who created the Human race to be slave
> labor... and who (if "God" gets His way) will be returned to such a
> state, giving "service" and "worship" to God for all Time... When Adam
> & Eve made clothing for themselves, they were defying the will of the
> gods (according to Sumerian myth--the antecedent of all the
> monotheistic religions which followed--nakedness was a sign of
> servility; animals, beasts of burden, were naked, as was the human
> race, until they became aware of their servile status and rebelled.
> Just as the "gods" were clothed, so too would Adapa (the Sumerian
> "Adam") wear clothing, in essence declaring himself to be no slave of
> the gods, but free.
> I think that the prophecied future that Christians wish to come to
> pass promises to be wretched. All the "end-time prophecies" declare
> that God (or His angels) will commit mass murder, wiping out not only
> most of the human life prior to Judgment Day, but also the animal and
> plant life of this planet. What right does any being--even God--have,
> to arbitrarily murder whole populations? As far as I'm concerned, not
> even "God" has the right to violate His own commandment not to "kill/
> commit murder" just because some people refuse to worship Him. Such a
> "god" is just a "fuhrer" with way-too-much power.
> Yeah, I tend to rant...
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 2-23-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 9:23 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name


> --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > Also, remember that the history from the 'secret scrolls' is wrong.
> > Cornelius state it takes 500 years for apes to go from pets to slaves
> > to overthrowing mankind. It in Beneath its evident that human
> > civilization was destroyed in the 20th century not the 25th.
>
> In the scenario I'm using for my novel (which won't be 'finished' for
> a hell of a long time yet--sorry, those who are interested), when
> Cornelius is interrogated by Hasslein, he knows (because Lewis warned
> him of it) that their interrogators might have "lie detectors" (and so
> forth), so that they'll know when he's trying to tell a lie.
> However, when he tells about the "secret scrolls" and says that after
> "two centuries" such-and-such has happened, Cornelius is purposely
> saying "centuries" where the actual scroll said "years"--meaning that
> Cornelius knew that from the time when apes are first enslaved until
> the revolution that freed them, a total of 5 years would transpire...
> but so that Hasslein (and the CIA/NSA types with him) would acquire a
> false sense of security, Cornelius mixes a little lie in with the
> truth: we know that there will be a Dog-&-Cat Plague, and a talking
> ape named Aldo, etc., so THIS much of it is true... but Cornelius
> wants his human interrogators to believe that from the time when the
> Plague hits, there'll be 5 centuries left to them, instead of just 5
> years.
> Zira, knowing about the contents of those "secret scrolls" too,
> follows Cornelius' lead, and says, "...after 3 more centuries, turn
> the tables on their masters..." when the actual scroll mentions "three
> years".
> The Plague happens "eight years" prior to CONQUEST, in 1983 (according
> to Armando), in "less than a month". For about three years, humans
> turn to non-canine/feline animals as pets--including chimps and baby
> gorillas & orangutans. Then, around 1986, the pet apes are trained to
> do services. Five years later, in 1991, the events of CONQUEST take
> place (in May-to-June: the shipment Caesar snuck into was "5-07--I-
> for-Indonesia ex Borneo..." indicating that that shipment left
> Indonesia on the date 5-07 (i.e. 7 May 1991); it is the "Indonesia
> file from last month" that Kolp inquires about, concerning the lone
> chimp amongst the orangutans from Borneo).
> So, then... Cornelius almost proudly tells Hasslein about the fall of
> Humanity and the circumstances surrounding which Apes rose to power...
> but he doesn't want Hasslein to know that it will happen SOON. He
> purposely says "centuries" instead of "years", so that the overthrow
> of Man will take them by surprise ("I thought we had 500 years left,
> dammit!" some intel agent might say). Zira follows Cornelius' example,
> changing the word "years" to "centuries" (instinctively knowing what
> Cornelius is trying to do).
> That's my explanation of this "flub"; y'all are free to ignore it if
> you wish.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 2-23-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 9:59 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name


> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > Patrick - -
> >
> Urko's soldiers refer to "gods" as well. I don't remember where, I
> think the one with the compass ("The gods have pulled our horses'
> tails in a circle"). So it would be in Central City as well. - - -
> Jeff
> >
> We have no way of knowing where "The Good Seeds" takes place in
> reference to Central City--though I would guess it's sort of "in the
> boonies". The gorillas in the group chasing after the Trio in the
> beginning of the episode might be "rural" types, who don't practice
> the religion (or the same version of it) practiced in the "city".
>
> Also, the term "gods" might mean (to these particular gorillas) the
> same thing as "spirits"/"angels"/"demi-gods"/"powers", etc. I don't
> see any evidence of an intricate pantheon of the likes of the
> Egyptian, Greek, Hindu, Roman, etc. If sharks can be "gods"
> ("Tomorrow's Tide"), creatures that aren't necessarily worshipped, yet
> are given "respect" given their ability to eat a man alive, then the
> winds could be thought of as "spirits"--indeed, the word "spiritus"
> (Latin) actually means "wind" (just as do the Greek word "pneuma" and
> the Hebrew word "ruach").
>
> The distinction between "city" and "rural" religion is important: it
> is usually in the higher population centers that organized religion
> can be centered--on a "temple", with an active priesthood. Way out in
> the country, where farming families are scattered, too far away from
> any centralized place of worship, rustic forms of religion tend to
> flourish. The words "heathen" and "pagan" do not literally have
> anything to do with religious belief--they are terms which mean "of
> the heath/heather" and "of the hills" (the Greek word "pagos" means
> "hill", as in the Areopagos, the "hill of Mars/Ares"). In King
> Solomon's time, the worship of YHWH in Jerusalem was overseen by the
> High Priest (Cohen ha-Gadol), but throughout the country the
> Israelites still worshipped the goddess Ishtar/Ostara/Ashtaroth amidst
> the "holy forests" (the "Asherah trees", etc.), as part of the
> standard fertility religions typical of that part of the world, where
> agriculture depended upon the fructifying powers of the enamored God-
> and-Goddess (i.e. when the male and female deities copulated, the
> crops grew--so farmers would sacrifice to both genders of deities, and
> would practice "sympathetic magic": they'd have sex out in the field,
> hoping to "turn on" the gods, who would then "do it", which makes the
> crops grow; this sort of religion was considered licentious by the
> city-centered priesthood, which typically was male-only, and against
> any form of religion which empowered females).
> Perhaps a similar thing is going on in the Central City-dominated Ape
> world; a mainstream monotheistic religion practiced in the Cities/
> Towns, and rustic paganism in the rural areas (with vestiges of
> polytheism, or mere animism--the belief that things such as rocks and
> trees and the winds are "gods"/"spirits".
> Keep in mind, also, that the planets are named after "gods", and were
> actually thought of as gods way back when; the medieval Christians
> changed the planetary "gods" to "angels" (sort of lesser "gods" in a
> way: they're below "God" yet above Mankind, like demi-gods). The Apes
> might think of the visible planets (and the Moon and Sun, too) as
> "lesser gods" ruled over by the One God who created the Universe...
>
> Remember, too, that Urko makes accusations/allegations of "sacrilege"
> and "heresy", and historically it has been organized monotheistic
> religion that gets so dogmatic about doctrinal matters, labelling
> rival belief systems as "heresy" and "sacrilege"... habitually
> denouncing the rural "unsophisticated" animistic beliefs as "pagan"
> and "heathen". Urko's choice of words lends credence to the notion
> that the religion HE follows is the city-centered, monotheistic,
> intolerant type.
> But, hey, believe what you want to believe. I think it's telling that
> Zaius (in "The Surgeon") has a bust of the Lawgiver that Galen & Burke
> steal.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 2-23-2002
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> > To: <pota@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 6:19 AM
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name
> >
> >
> > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > Patrick - - -
> > > The apes refer to "gods" throughout the TV show, not just in
> > > "Tomorrow's Tide". Probably a way to sugar coat it. Can't have apes
> > > referring to "God" on a kid's show. What would the Bible Belt think?
> > > This way they could say, "See, Jimmy? Those apes don't read their
> > > Bible. God has shunned them".
> > > - - - Jeff
> > >
> > > Jeff - - -
> > > You use the phrase "throughout the TV show"; as far as I can recall,
> > > the topic of religion was rarely addressed in the show. The
> > > "Tomorrow's Tide" episode has references to sharks being "the gods of
> > > the sea", and in "The Liberator" there's reference (I think--I'll have
> > > to double-check) to "gods", and that's about it for polytheism: two
> > > podunk communities, each one relatively distant from the Central City
> > > area, and dominated by superstitious folks. Urko, in "Escape From
> > > Tomorrow" makes two references to religion: at Virdon & Burke's trial,
> > > he says that Virdon's belief ["all intelligent creatures should live
> > > together as equals"] is "sacrilege and heresy"--and from this there's
> > > no indication as to the number of deities worshipped by the
> > > "mainstream" simian community--and after Galen is arrested and caught
> > > with Farrow's book, Urko refers to him as "a liar and a heretic"--
> > > again, no indication given as to whether or not Urko (and his fellow
> > > apes) believe in "One God" or in a pantheon of Gods.
> > > I'll have to watch 'em all again, cataloguing every reference to
> > > "God", "gods", "heresy", etc. in order to see whether or not it is
> > > reasonable to conclude that ALL the people (apes and humans) in the
> > > Central City-dominated area believe in a plurality of deities.
> > > Frankly, I don't think it IS reasonable to conclude this based on the
> > > evidence so far. The religion practiced by "The Liberator" is
> > > purposely contrived (via an insider's knowledge of the petroleum fumes
> > > present in the "cave"/"temple") in order to further an agenda and to
> > > also provide a "smoke-screen" to keep curious people away from the
> > > secrets kept in the cave; and this religion in no way resembles what
> > > any mainstream simian religion would be--after all, would the
> > > mainstream ape community allow a HUMAN to officiate at a religious
> > > ceremony? No friggin' way. The apes allow this bizarre human-
> > > officiated religion to be practiced as long as they get their quota of
> > > slaves. Given the "look" of the mask the "high priest" wears, the
> > > "gods" they worship don't look either human or simian; I'd bed that if
> > > the apes thought these "gods" were anthropomorphic (and not
> > > pithecomorphic, i.e. "ape-shaped"), they would make it a capital
> > > offense to practice that religion.
> > > Remember how Honorius (in Taylor's trial) refers to the "First Article
> > > of Faith"... that "God created the APE in His own image... gave him a
> > > soul and a mind... set him apart from the beasts of the jungle, and
> > > made him the lord of the planet"? Virdon's advocacy of EQUALITY for
> > > apes and humans goes against this doctrine--a doctrine that Galen had
> > > believed all his life until then ("Apes have always ruled the world...
> > > ALWAYS!"). This suggests that Galen believed the same "article of
> > > Faith" that Honorius would mention 9 centuries later. Given that
> > > almost everything about the simian civilization in 3085 is identical
> > > to that in 3955 (same clothing designs, same level of technology--
> > > excepting for photography and blood-transfusions, same type of rock-
> > > hewn dwelling places, etc.), it is reasonable to conclude that the
> > > mainstream ape society in 3085 follows the same religion as in 3955,
> > > the one addendum being that humans have yet to be driven "back into
> > > their jungle lair" (as is advocated/ordered by "the Lawgiver" in the
> > > Sacred Scrolls, 29th scroll, 6th verse); in 3085, humans are used as
> > > slave labor, allowed to dwell amongst the ruling apes. THE Lawgiver
> > > (i.e. the one who writes "Beware the beast Man..."), the one later on
> > > referred to as "the greatest ape of all" by Zaius, must have come
> > > along AFTER 3085 (or, perhaps, he's "at work" in the Ape world during
> > > the time that Virdon & Burke are there as fugitives). In other words,
> > > though the oldest of the canonical "Sacred Scrolls" are dated "1200
> > > years" prior to 3955 (c. 2755), the most recent canonical additions (a
> > > sort of "New Testament" to the former "Old Testament") could have been
> > > written LATER than 2755... even as late as the year 3085 and
> > > following. Perhaps it was in order to counter the "interference" of
> > > Virdon and Burke (who were imparting their "science" to benefit humans
> > > and apes) that the last prophet of the simian God, "the greatest ape
> > > of all, our Lawgiver" wrote what would end up being the last (and most
> > > important) of their canonical scriptures (just as Mohammed is
> > > considered by Muslims as the LAST of Allah's prophets); and, just like
> > > Mohammed, he promulgates a severe, intolerant doctrine regarding those
> > > who are considered NOT to be "God's chosen".
> > > Just something to think about...
> > >
> > > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > > EARTH-TIME 2-17-2002
> > >
> > > P.S. "There are monkeyboys in the facility..."
> > >
> > >
> > > Regarding the "gods" mentioned in the TV show, it isn't a certainty
> > > that the entire Ape civilization shared the polytheistic belief system
> > > that the fishing community in "Tomorrow's Tide" held. I don't see the
> > > main Simian society worshipping a "pantheon" of deities, like the
> > > Egyptian/Greek/Roman civilizations did; in BATTLE, the "Lawgiver"
> > > (whom I've named--after "The Cure" reference--"Ornan") reads from a
> > > "history scroll" which by 3955 is no longer known save by Zaius, and
> > > he says, "In the beginning, God created Beast and Man, so that both
> > > might live in friendship and share dominion over a world at peace; but
> > > in the fullness of time, evil men betrayed God's trust..." etc. It
> > > seems evident that this monotheistic religion (which Caesar said--to
> > > MacDonald in CONQUEST--the apes would create) represents the
> > > 'mainstream' religion from the time of Caesar (1991-to-2018 and
> > > following) until at least 2670. Something happens during the next 85
> > > years to prompt another "Lawgiver" (whom I've named "Doswa", in
> > > reference to Effinger's novelization of "The Surgeon") to re-write the
> > > "sacred history" of the Apes, erasing any references to human
> > > civilization/language/enslavement-of-apes/etc. If some isolated
> > > communities (like the fishing village in "Tomorrow's Tide" or the
> > > human tribe in "The Liberator") have their own less-sophisticated
> > > polytheistic religions, that doesn't mean that the entire Ape "world"
> > > shares those beliefs.
> > > Just my two cents...
> > >
> > > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > > EARTH-TIME 2-13-2002
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 2:55 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name

In a message dated 2/23/02 5:41:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  Patrick, I don't see how a circular chronology can exist if you include
the TV show. It's a different back story than the films. And Cornelius
seemed pretty sincere when he recalled the history. I don't think there's
any way to justify that he thought the apes would take over in the next
decade. You can blame faulty record keeping though, maybe they THOUGHT it
was centuries but it's actually years.
                                                           - - - Jeff

You realize, of course, that in actuality it would take present day great apes TENS OF THOUSANDS of years to evolve into the creatures seen in the series -- maybe even millions.   That's why the failure of the original series and even Boulle to explain it all as the result of genetic re-engineering of apes by man is one of the great 'gaps' in the concept.  The new movie finally introduced it, but rather ineptly.  Too bad a good Science Fiction writer didn't work on the script.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Patrick, I don't see how a circular chronology can exist if you
include
> the TV show. It's a different back story than the films. And
Cornelius
> seemed pretty sincere when he recalled the history. I don't think
there's
> any way to justify that he thought the apes would take over in the
next
> decade. You can blame faulty record keeping though, maybe they
THOUGHT it
> was centuries but it's actually years.
> - - -
Jeff

> I think that the contention that the series of five APES films

> and is a 'cycle' is something that was started long ago by people

> didn't know what they were talking about, and has unfortunately

> by some -- including Fox -- as the only way to look at the series.

> pisses me off because it limits the scope of the films and is kind

> 'silly.' Think about it.
>
> -- Rory

> > I guess you count Paul Dehn as someone who really didn't know

> > was talking about.
> > "The whole thing has become a very logical development in the

> > a circle", explained Paul Dehn, "I have a complete chronology of

> > time circle mapped out". From 'Evolution=MC2' by Paul A. Woods in

> > Planet of the Apes Chronicles.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yes, I do! Dehn was no Arthur C. Clarke.
>
> -- Rory

>From: "sand_hill_school" <sand_hill_school@...>
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!
>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 14:51:06 -0000
>

----- Original Message -----

From: james611102

Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 8:34 PM

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name

 

I agree. The TV series doesn't fit with the films in a number of
ways. Central City was located in Southern California while all the
films, except Escape, took place in or near New York City. The
Lawgiver and the Sacred Scrolls are never mentioned or even the
law 'Ape Shall Never Kill Ape'. Virdon & Burke have no memory of
Cornelius & Zira or even Taylor. It even contradicts itself in many
ways. While a picture of New York in the 25th Century is shown in the
first episode, the ruins of San Francisco indicate it was destroyed
in the 20th. Virdon even able to explain the subway ads to Urko. And
one of the ads shows apes in a zoo, not as slaves. But maybe ape
slavery only was a fad on the east coast and never caught on in
California.
I think like many TV series based on movies at the time, like MASH
and the Odd Couple, the POTA TV was based on the films but not meant
to be a contiuation of the films storylines.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
>   Patrick, I don't see how a circular chronology can exist if you
include
> the TV show. It's a different back story than the films. And
Cornelius
> seemed pretty sincere when he recalled the history. I don't think
there's
> any way to justify that he thought the apes would take over in the
next
> decade. You can blame faulty record keeping though, maybe they
THOUGHT it
> was centuries but it's actually years.
>                                                            - - -
Jeff

> And accept that just cause someone doesn't share your opinion it
> doesn't make them wrong or silly. It just means they have a different
> opinion.

>Helen, there's a famous Ray Bradbury short story (that I can't remember the
>title of, and can barely remember the details) that has a group of hunters
>going back in time to kill a dinosaur that was going to die anyway when a
>tree fell on it or something.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:29 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 9:52:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sand_hill_school@... writes:

It is unlikely that one spontaneous change would seriously change the
course of the future.  It seems to me it would take an INTENTIONAL
intervention by well-educated historians (from the future) and
strategic planners (past and present) to make enough of an impression
to change the future significantly.  Even then, the result could be
virtually unchanged.

In this way it remains a lane-changing line – with the appearance of
a "circle."

Helen /a? 

Helen, there's a famous Ray Bradbury short story (that I can't remember the title of, and can barely remember the details) that has a group of hunters going back in time to kill a dinosaur that was going to die anyway when a tree fell on it or something.  These hunters had to stay on a specially made platform so they wouldn't affect anything else in the past.  However, one of them steps on a butterfly and kills it.  Because of that tiny thing when they return to the future they find it completely changed beyond recognition.

Imagine you were able to go back in time and prevent the events of 9-11.  How much of what has happened in the last six months do you think would still happen?  Now, imagine how different the future would be if all those people who have died since 9-11 were still alive doing things and eventually having offspring that would themselves have further offspring, and on and on.  I think the little things matter a lot.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> In a message dated 2/24/02 11:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> writes:
>
>
> > Hello! I am new to this group and have been reading the mail for

> > week or so. Forgive me if I seem to be ignorant or if I seem to

> > But I have just a small question. Were any of you around to see

> > movies or TV shows when they originally aired? I am trying to

> > where your opinions come from.
> >
> >
>
> Well, I was eight yeas old when I saw the original in 1968, so that

> a lot of where I'm coming from. I saw everything when it

> or aired. What's your story? (And do you have a name?)
>
> -- Rory

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:33 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name

In a message dated 2/24/02 11:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, emr1623@... writes:

Hello!  I am new to this group and have been reading the mail for the past week or so.  Forgive me if I seem to be ignorant or if I seem to intrude... But I have just a small question.  Were any of you around to see any of the movies or TV shows when they originally aired?  I am trying to understand where your opinions come from.

Well, I was eight yeas old when I saw the original in 1968, so that explains a lot of where I'm coming from.  I saw everything when it originally came out or aired.  What's your story?  (And do you have a name?)

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 9:04 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

   The one that comes to my mind is Hitler was trying to get into architechture school. I f he hadn't have been turned down he'd have been an architect instead of a politician. No World War II, probably no Cold War, maybe no arms race, etc. Or maybe if Hitler got laid once in a while.                                     - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:29 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 9:52:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sand_hill_school@... writes:

It is unlikely that one spontaneous change would seriously change the
course of the future.  It seems to me it would take an INTENTIONAL
intervention by well-educated historians (from the future) and
strategic planners (past and present) to make enough of an impression
to change the future significantly.  Even then, the result could be
virtually unchanged.

In this way it remains a lane-changing line – with the appearance of
a "circle."

Helen /a? 

Helen, there's a famous Ray Bradbury short story (that I can't remember the title of, and can barely remember the details) that has a group of hunters going back in time to kill a dinosaur that was going to die anyway when a tree fell on it or something.  These hunters had to stay on a specially made platform so they wouldn't affect anything else in the past.  However, one of them steps on a butterfly and kills it.  Because of that tiny thing when they return to the future they find it completely changed beyond recognition.

Imagine you were able to go back in time and prevent the events of 9-11.  How much of what has happened in the last six months do you think would still happen?  Now, imagine how different the future would be if all those people who have died since 9-11 were still alive doing things and eventually having offspring that would themselves have further offspring, and on and on.  I think the little things matter a lot.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> I never saw the movies in the original theatrical run but I saw
the TV show during the original airings (and yes, "The Liberator" was
shown). But someone could've seen them for the first time last night
and have an opinion. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haristas@a...
> To: pota@y...
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name
>
>
> In a message dated 2/24/02 11:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
emr1623@m... writes:
>
>
>
> Hello! I am new to this group and have been reading the mail
for the past week or so. Forgive me if I seem to be ignorant or if I
seem to intrude... But I have just a small question. Were any of you
around to see any of the movies or TV shows when they originally
aired? I am trying to understand where your opinions come from.
>
>
>
>
> Well, I was eight yeas old when I saw the original in 1968, so
that explains a lot of where I'm coming from. I saw everything when
it originally came out or aired. What's your story? (And do you
have a name?)
>
> -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/24/02 12:36:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
emr1623@m...
> writes:
>
>
> > Anyway, I think you could pick the movies and series apart till
> > there's nothing left but a carcass, and in my opinion it still
comes
> > back to being merely a reflection of the times.
> >
> > Eileen
> >
>
> Very true. Movies are nearly inseparable from the times in which
they are
> produced and released. It's very interesting to discuss the APES
films in
> the context of the times when they came out -- anyway that what
Eric Greene
> tells me!
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
I agree. The TV series doesn't fit with the films in a number of
ways. Central City was located in Southern California while all the
films, except Escape, took place in or near New York City. The
Lawgiver and the Sacred Scrolls are never mentioned or even the
law 'Ape Shall Never Kill Ape'. Virdon & Burke have no memory of
Cornelius & Zira or even Taylor. It even contradicts itself in many
ways. While a picture of New York in the 25th Century is shown in the
first episode, the ruins of San Francisco indicate it was destroyed
in the 20th. Virdon even able to explain the subway ads to Urko. And
one of the ads shows apes in a zoo, not as slaves. But maybe ape
slavery only was a fad on the east coast and never caught on in
California.
I think like many TV series based on movies at the time, like MASH
and the Odd Couple, the POTA TV was based on the films but not meant
to be a contiuation of the films storylines.
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
Patrick, I don't see how a circular chronology can exist if you
include the TV show. It's a different back story than the films. And
Cornelius seemed pretty sincere when he recalled the history. I don't
think there's any way to justify that he thought the apes would take
over in the next decade. You can blame faulty record keeping though,
maybe they THOUGHT it was centuries but it's actually years.
- - Jeff

--- In pota@y..., "Eileen Rankin" <emr1623@m...> wrote:
> Hello! I am new to this group and have been reading the mail for
the past week or so. Forgive me if I seem to be ignorant or if I
seem to intrude... But I have just a small question. Were any of you
around to see any of the movies or TV shows when they originally
aired? I am trying to understand where your opinions come from.
>

> "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > And accept that just cause someone doesn't share your opinion it
> > doesn't make them wrong or silly. It just means they have a

> > opinion.
>
> Amen to that.
>
> Alan

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Another thing I heard was that Marx had a medical condition and
had to write the Communist Manifesto standing up. Thus it was written
by a not very happy man. Not the best conditions to think clearly.
Plus he had those bushy eyebrows and that cigar so everybody thought
he looked funny, especially his brother
Harpo. - - - Jeff

>
> Anyway, I think you could pick the movies and series apart till
> there's nothing left but a carcass, and in my opinion it still

> back to being merely a reflection of the times.
>
> Eileen

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> I was 7 years old when I saw the original in 1968 and have been an
> avid fan ever since, seeing each film as it came to the local
> theater, going to the Go Ape festivals in '73 & '74. I watched
every
> episode of the series when it was on TV as well as all the movies
on
> CBS in Prime time and on a local station when they ran them in the
> afternoons. I've rewatched all the films hundreds of times on video
> and now on DVD. I've read every issue of the Marvel Magazine in the
> 70s and most of the recent background or making of books. A few
years
> ago when a screenwriter friend was pitching a sixth sequel to FOX,
> during one of the periods the remake was in turnaround, he
consulted
> me as an expert on the original films.
> Anything else you'd like to know?
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Eileen Rankin" <emr1623@m...> wrote:
> > Hello! I am new to this group and have been reading the mail for
> the past week or so. Forgive me if I seem to be ignorant or if I
> seem to intrude... But I have just a small question. Were any of
you
> around to see any of the movies or TV shows when they originally
> aired? I am trying to understand where your opinions come from.
> >

--- In pota@y..., "Calima 5021" <calima5021com@m...> wrote:
> The one that comes to my mind is Hitler was trying to get into
architechture
> school. I f he hadn't have been turned down he'd have been an
architect
> instead of a politician. No World War II, probably no Cold War,
maybe no
> arms race, etc. Or maybe if Hitler got laid once in a
while.

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 12:04 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

   The one that comes to my mind is Hitler was trying to get into architechture school. I f he hadn't have been turned down he'd have been an architect instead of a politician. No World War II, probably no Cold War, maybe no arms race, etc. Or maybe if Hitler got laid once in a while.                                     - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:29 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 9:52:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sand_hill_school@... writes:

It is unlikely that one spontaneous change would seriously change the
course of the future.  It seems to me it would take an INTENTIONAL
intervention by well-educated historians (from the future) and
strategic planners (past and present) to make enough of an impression
to change the future significantly.  Even then, the result could be
virtually unchanged.

In this way it remains a lane-changing line – with the appearance of
a "circle."

Helen /a? 

Helen, there's a famous Ray Bradbury short story (that I can't remember the title of, and can barely remember the details) that has a group of hunters going back in time to kill a dinosaur that was going to die anyway when a tree fell on it or something.  These hunters had to stay on a specially made platform so they wouldn't affect anything else in the past.  However, one of them steps on a butterfly and kills it.  Because of that tiny thing when they return to the future they find it completely changed beyond recognition.

Imagine you were able to go back in time and prevent the events of 9-11.  How much of what has happened in the last six months do you think would still happen?  Now, imagine how different the future would be if all those people who have died since 9-11 were still alive doing things and eventually having offspring that would themselves have further offspring, and on and on.  I think the little things matter a lot.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> Actually, CONQUEST, too (and BATTLE), take place on the West Coast,

> you take John Jakes' novelization into account

> Did I offend thee?

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> --- In pota@y..., "emr1623" <emr1623@m...> wrote:
> > Did I offend thee?
> Not at all. Why would you think so?

In a message dated 2/24/02 1:11:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, GAPNews writes:

Equality Beyond Humanity

GAPNews
*********

This event is also posted at our GAP - USA website at: http://hometown.aol.com/gapnews/events.html"


A Planet Without the Apes?

In the real world, chimpanzees are under siege. Will these extraordinary animals survive? Join eight leading primate defenders -- including Jane Goodall -- who are fighting to protect the lives and establish legal rights of chimpanzees.

Friday, March 22, 2002
7:00-9:00 pm
Town Hall, 1119 8th Avenue, downtown Seattle
Book signing following event

Free tickets
University Book Store: Bellevue, Downtown and University District locations
Distribution starts March 1, 2002
Ticket info: (206) 634-3400

Featured speakers are members of The Chimpanzee Collaboratory, a group of attorneys, scientists and public policy experts working to make significant and measurable progress in protecting the lives and establishing the legal of chimpanzees.

Steve Ann Chambers, Animal Legal Defense Fund
Deborah and Roger Fouts, Friend of Washoe
Jane Goodall, Jane Goodall Institute
Holly Hazard, Doris Day Animal League
Carole Noon, Center for Captive Chimpanzee Care
Paul Waldau, Great Ape Project
Steve Wise, Center for the Expansion of Fundamental Rights
Richard Wrangham, Harvard University

Presented by The Glaser Foundation, The Forum at the Evans School, University Book Store and Town Hall, with thanks to The Humane Society of the United States.

Event information: (206) 526-0949, HSUS, Pacific Northwest Regional Office
This rescheduled event was originally planned for September, 2001
 



<.html

> --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > --- In pota@y..., "emr1623" <emr1623@m...> wrote:
> > > Did I offend thee?
> > Not at all. Why would you think so?

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 9:16 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 12:00:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

The one that comes to my mind is Hitler was trying to get into architechture school. I f he hadn't have been turned down he'd have been an architect instead of a politician. No World War II, probably no Cold War, maybe no arms race, etc. Or maybe if Hitler got laid once in a while.                                     - - - Jeff

I read once that Hitler was into having sex with very young women, almost girls, and that he liked having them crap on his head.  I'm not kidding!  Hitler was a load of laughs.  I also read that his favorite film was KING KONG!

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "emr1623" <emr1623@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 9:34 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name


> Of course anyone can have an opinion! I am just curious because
> (forgive me if I seem somewhat ignorant) I am of the mind that movies
> and tv reflect the moods (fears,politics,etc.) of the times when they
> are produced. If you were around when the originals were made, it
> would be easier to understand the context. We were in an era of Love
> and Peace, yet people were rebelling against the "establishment".
> There was Vietnam. Space exploration was new and held infinite
> possibilities. Desegregation was a concept that many people still
> had a hard time swallowing. There was alot of unrest and people were
> basically still "innocent" yet there were so many technological
> advances being thrown at them.
>
> Anyway, I think you could pick the movies and series apart till
> there's nothing left but a carcass, and in my opinion it still comes
> back to being merely a reflection of the times.
>
> Eileen
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > I never saw the movies in the original theatrical run but I saw
> the TV show during the original airings (and yes, "The Liberator" was
> shown). But someone could've seen them for the first time last night
> and have an opinion. - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Haristas@a...
> > To: pota@y...
> > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:33 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 2/24/02 11:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> emr1623@m... writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello! I am new to this group and have been reading the mail
> for the past week or so. Forgive me if I seem to be ignorant or if I
> seem to intrude... But I have just a small question. Were any of you
> around to see any of the movies or TV shows when they originally
> aired? I am trying to understand where your opinions come from.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, I was eight yeas old when I saw the original in 1968, so
> that explains a lot of where I'm coming from. I saw everything when
> it originally came out or aired. What's your story? (And do you
> have a name?)
> >
> > -- Rory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 9:54 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name


> Actually, CONQUEST, too (and BATTLE), take place on the West Coast, if
> you take John Jakes' novelization into account; he mentions the
> decline in air pollution due to "air scrubber" facilities in the
> mountains off to the east (I think), which would place it in
> California (the mountains in question being the Sierras). Remember,
> CONQUEST takes place in a "new" city somewhere on the coast, since
> transoceanic shipments of apes arrive (i.e. it's a port city). Since
> Breck's city is revisited in BATTLE, then we have Caesar's adventures
> taking place on the West Coast, somewhere in California (in my novel,
> Breck's city is an "arcopolis" subsuming the coastal towns of San
> Simeon and Cambria (remember the "San Simian Sentinel" that Fox put
> out as part of their publicity for CONQUEST?). This "arcopolis"
> (named, in my novel, 'San Simeon'--taking the name of one of the towns
> incorporated into it) is roughly halfway in between San Francisco and
> Los Angeles.
> This means, then, that somehow the ape civilization that flourishes
> within a 3-day journey of Breck's arcopolis (in BATTLE, and later on
> in the TV era) must branch out, sending out colonies eastward to end
> up in the New York area. So too must the "mutant" community travel
> with their beloved Bomb-god towards NYC. In Marvel's chronology of
> POTA (in one of their 29 issues), they suggest that the Mendez
> community migrates through transcontinental tunnels, sometime in the
> 2200's, I think (I might be off by a century or so).
> I've argued elsewhere that the Lawgiver ("the greatest ape of all")
> who wrote the last of the canonical Sacred Scrolls had to have been
> around no earlier than the time of the TV era, since apes had not yet
> driven humanity "back into his jungle lair" (making use of them as
> slaves instead). Clearly, something drastic happens at or just after
> the year 3085, prompting the last of the Lawgivers to write his last
> scriptures, which prompt the Ape civilization to further subjugate
> Humanity down below slave status to that of an animal. This Lawgiver
> will also (in my novel's scenario) lead his followers to the NYC area,
> and since he knows that the desert area near it is deadly (and that
> there's a Statue of Liberty there), he declares it to be a "forbidden
> zone". The "something drastic" (in my novel) is a simian response
> (i.e. a "race war" against humans) to the technological influence of
> Virdon and Burke, who have given the humans they've come into contact
> with reasons to fight for their rights against the Apes who have (and
> would continue) subjugated them.
> I agree that the TV series "doesn't fit with the films in a number of
> ways"--but they can be "made" to fit with a little bit (make that a
> LOT) of mental "elbow grease". The reason Virdon & Burke don't know
> about Zira & Cornelius is because their ship left Earth in 1971, and
> arrived at Alpha Centauri in 1980 (just as Taylor's ship left in 1972
> and arrived at its Orion destination in 3978), both Virdon and Taylor
> zipping back to Earth (and back through Time) a proportional amount in
> relation to the number of lightyears they have to cross in their
> "homing trajectory" (read my other postings for more on this):
> Virdon's ship zips 4.34 LY back (from Alpha Centauri to Earth) on
> EARTH-TIME 7-14-3085 yet land near Chalo on 3-21-3085 (115 EARTH-TIME
> days before!), and Taylor's ship zips 320 LY back (from its
> destination out in Orion to Earth) on EARTH-TIME 11-25-3978 yet
> splashes down in 3955 (23 EARTH-TIME years before)--the ratios are the
> same: 4.34 LY is to 320 LY as 115 "retrodays" is to 23+ "retroyears".
> In order to "unflub" the "New York City: 2503" picture, I've had to
> concoct a scenario that can explain how there can actually be two
> different places named "New York City"; if you're interested, here
> goes...
> A group of scientists (the same group who made the holograph projector
> seen in "The Legacy") knows there'll be a nuclear war, so they
> establish "caches" of human knowledge all around the world, and they
> "ride out" the actual Nuke War (which, in my timeline, is in 2006, 12
> years before BATTLE, which was 27 years after CONQUEST) in an orbiting
> scientific research station. After a time, they descend down to the
> surface, which has been ravaged primarily in the northern hemisphere
> (North America, Europe, Asia, Middle East, etc.). The southern
> hemisphere is relatively okay, though (although civilization has
> collapsed), so they decide to land in Australia.
> They gather a remnant of people around them and found a country they
> call "New America" (since they are "Jeffersonian" rationalists who
> think that the ideals upon which the USA was established--and which
> were abandoned after 1973 when the USA turned totalitarian--represent
> the best chance Humanity has to recover from the War). They establish
> a new "Washington D.C." (the "D.C." being the "District of Canberra",
> the capital of what was once Australia), a new "Philadelphia", a new
> "Chicago", etc., and a new "New York City" (on the "Cape York
> Peninsula"--an obvious choice given the name). So... this "New
> America" is founded in 2013, calendrically on the day following the
> 86,400th "day of the Republic" (counting 4 July 1776 as the "first
> day". The 86,400-day duration of "Old America" is compared to a "day"
> which has 86,400 seconds. New America thrives over the next hemi-
> millennium, and a photograph of the Cape York Peninsula "New York
> City" is snapped in the year 2503... and it is THIS New York City
> which Virdon and Burke see in the old book (which somehow ends up in a
> "bomb shelter" in Old America hundreds of years later)
>
> Rats, I gotta go to work! I'll continue this later on...
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 2-24-2002
>
> --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> I agree. The TV series doesn't fit with the films in a number of
> ways. Central City was located in Southern California while all the
> films, except Escape, took place in or near New York City. The
> Lawgiver and the Sacred Scrolls are never mentioned or even the
> law 'Ape Shall Never Kill Ape'. Virdon & Burke have no memory of
> Cornelius & Zira or even Taylor. It even contradicts itself in many
> ways. While a picture of New York in the 25th Century is shown in the
> first episode, the ruins of San Francisco indicate it was destroyed
> in the 20th. Virdon even able to explain the subway ads to Urko. And
> one of the ads shows apes in a zoo, not as slaves. But maybe ape
> slavery only was a fad on the east coast and never caught on in
> California.
> I think like many TV series based on movies at the time, like MASH
> and the Odd Couple, the POTA TV was based on the films but not meant
> to be a contiuation of the films storylines.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Patrick, I don't see how a circular chronology can exist if you
> include the TV show. It's a different back story than the films. And
> Cornelius seemed pretty sincere when he recalled the history. I don't
> think there's any way to justify that he thought the apes would take
> over in the next decade. You can blame faulty record keeping though,
> maybe they THOUGHT it was centuries but it's actually years.
> - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:15 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 1:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, agnosticdragon@... writes:

I thought Hitler tried to get into an art school???  He was a great painter, but a fucked up human being.

Hitler was a great painter?!!!  That's a new one on me.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 9:54 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name


> Actually, CONQUEST, too (and BATTLE), take place on the West Coast, if
> you take John Jakes' novelization into account; he mentions the
> decline in air pollution due to "air scrubber" facilities in the
> mountains off to the east (I think), which would place it in
> California (the mountains in question being the Sierras). Remember,
> CONQUEST takes place in a "new" city somewhere on the coast, since
> transoceanic shipments of apes arrive (i.e. it's a port city). Since
> Breck's city is revisited in BATTLE, then we have Caesar's adventures
> taking place on the West Coast, somewhere in California (in my novel,
> Breck's city is an "arcopolis" subsuming the coastal towns of San
> Simeon and Cambria (remember the "San Simian Sentinel" that Fox put
> out as part of their publicity for CONQUEST?). This "arcopolis"
> (named, in my novel, 'San Simeon'--taking the name of one of the towns
> incorporated into it) is roughly halfway in between San Francisco and
> Los Angeles.
> This means, then, that somehow the ape civilization that flourishes
> within a 3-day journey of Breck's arcopolis (in BATTLE, and later on
> in the TV era) must branch out, sending out colonies eastward to end
> up in the New York area. So too must the "mutant" community travel
> with their beloved Bomb-god towards NYC. In Marvel's chronology of
> POTA (in one of their 29 issues), they suggest that the Mendez
> community migrates through transcontinental tunnels, sometime in the
> 2200's, I think (I might be off by a century or so).
> I've argued elsewhere that the Lawgiver ("the greatest ape of all")
> who wrote the last of the canonical Sacred Scrolls had to have been
> around no earlier than the time of the TV era, since apes had not yet
> driven humanity "back into his jungle lair" (making use of them as
> slaves instead). Clearly, something drastic happens at or just after
> the year 3085, prompting the last of the Lawgivers to write his last
> scriptures, which prompt the Ape civilization to further subjugate
> Humanity down below slave status to that of an animal. This Lawgiver
> will also (in my novel's scenario) lead his followers to the NYC area,
> and since he knows that the desert area near it is deadly (and that
> there's a Statue of Liberty there), he declares it to be a "forbidden
> zone". The "something drastic" (in my novel) is a simian response
> (i.e. a "race war" against humans) to the technological influence of
> Virdon and Burke, who have given the humans they've come into contact
> with reasons to fight for their rights against the Apes who have (and
> would continue) subjugated them.
> I agree that the TV series "doesn't fit with the films in a number of
> ways"--but they can be "made" to fit with a little bit (make that a
> LOT) of mental "elbow grease". The reason Virdon & Burke don't know
> about Zira & Cornelius is because their ship left Earth in 1971, and
> arrived at Alpha Centauri in 1980 (just as Taylor's ship left in 1972
> and arrived at its Orion destination in 3978), both Virdon and Taylor
> zipping back to Earth (and back through Time) a proportional amount in
> relation to the number of lightyears they have to cross in their
> "homing trajectory" (read my other postings for more on this):
> Virdon's ship zips 4.34 LY back (from Alpha Centauri to Earth) on
> EARTH-TIME 7-14-3085 yet land near Chalo on 3-21-3085 (115 EARTH-TIME
> days before!), and Taylor's ship zips 320 LY back (from its
> destination out in Orion to Earth) on EARTH-TIME 11-25-3978 yet
> splashes down in 3955 (23 EARTH-TIME years before)--the ratios are the
> same: 4.34 LY is to 320 LY as 115 "retrodays" is to 23+ "retroyears".
> In order to "unflub" the "New York City: 2503" picture, I've had to
> concoct a scenario that can explain how there can actually be two
> different places named "New York City"; if you're interested, here
> goes...
> A group of scientists (the same group who made the holograph projector
> seen in "The Legacy") knows there'll be a nuclear war, so they
> establish "caches" of human knowledge all around the world, and they
> "ride out" the actual Nuke War (which, in my timeline, is in 2006, 12
> years before BATTLE, which was 27 years after CONQUEST) in an orbiting
> scientific research station. After a time, they descend down to the
> surface, which has been ravaged primarily in the northern hemisphere
> (North America, Europe, Asia, Middle East, etc.). The southern
> hemisphere is relatively okay, though (although civilization has
> collapsed), so they decide to land in Australia.
> They gather a remnant of people around them and found a country they
> call "New America" (since they are "Jeffersonian" rationalists who
> think that the ideals upon which the USA was established--and which
> were abandoned after 1973 when the USA turned totalitarian--represent
> the best chance Humanity has to recover from the War). They establish
> a new "Washington D.C." (the "D.C." being the "District of Canberra",
> the capital of what was once Australia), a new "Philadelphia", a new
> "Chicago", etc., and a new "New York City" (on the "Cape York
> Peninsula"--an obvious choice given the name). So... this "New
> America" is founded in 2013, calendrically on the day following the
> 86,400th "day of the Republic" (counting 4 July 1776 as the "first
> day". The 86,400-day duration of "Old America" is compared to a "day"
> which has 86,400 seconds. New America thrives over the next hemi-
> millennium, and a photograph of the Cape York Peninsula "New York
> City" is snapped in the year 2503... and it is THIS New York City
> which Virdon and Burke see in the old book (which somehow ends up in a
> "bomb shelter" in Old America hundreds of years later)
>
> Rats, I gotta go to work! I'll continue this later on...
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 2-24-2002
>
> --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> I agree. The TV series doesn't fit with the films in a number of
> ways. Central City was located in Southern California while all the
> films, except Escape, took place in or near New York City. The
> Lawgiver and the Sacred Scrolls are never mentioned or even the
> law 'Ape Shall Never Kill Ape'. Virdon & Burke have no memory of
> Cornelius & Zira or even Taylor. It even contradicts itself in many
> ways. While a picture of New York in the 25th Century is shown in the
> first episode, the ruins of San Francisco indicate it was destroyed
> in the 20th. Virdon even able to explain the subway ads to Urko. And
> one of the ads shows apes in a zoo, not as slaves. But maybe ape
> slavery only was a fad on the east coast and never caught on in
> California.
> I think like many TV series based on movies at the time, like MASH
> and the Odd Couple, the POTA TV was based on the films but not meant
> to be a contiuation of the films storylines.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Patrick, I don't see how a circular chronology can exist if you
> include the TV show. It's a different back story than the films. And
> Cornelius seemed pretty sincere when he recalled the history. I don't
> think there's any way to justify that he thought the apes would take
> over in the next decade. You can blame faulty record keeping though,
> maybe they THOUGHT it was centuries but it's actually years.
> - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 10:00 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Movies in time

In a message dated 2/24/02 12:52:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, emr1623@... writes:

Who is Eric Greene?  Like I said, I'm a newby... LOL

Eric Greene is a guy who lives in California and was, I think, a child actor for a time.  Anyway, his brother took him to see BATTLE FOR THE PLANET OF THE APES when he was five back in 1973.  He ended up writing this book called "PLANET OF THE APES AS AMERICAN MYTH: Race, Politics, and Popular Culture."  It sounds to me, Eileen, as if you'd enjoy reading it very much.  You shouldn't have any trouble finding it, if you know where to look.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 10:15 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!


> Castro also tried out for the Washington Senators baseball team in
> the 50s. Imagine if he had made it. Imagine if they didn't use the
> butterfly ballot in West Palm Beach in the 2000 election.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > Another thing I heard was that Marx had a medical condition and
> had to write the Communist Manifesto standing up. Thus it was written
> by a not very happy man. Not the best conditions to think clearly.
> Plus he had those bushy eyebrows and that cigar so everybody thought
> he looked funny, especially his brother
> Harpo. - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: ThyPentacle

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 10:32 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

I thought Hitler tried to get into an art school???  He was a great painter, but a fucked up human being.

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 12:04 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

   The one that comes to my mind is Hitler was trying to get into architechture school. I f he hadn't have been turned down he'd have been an architect instead of a politician. No World War II, probably no Cold War, maybe no arms race, etc. Or maybe if Hitler got laid once in a while.                                     - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:29 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 9:52:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sand_hill_school@... writes:

It is unlikely that one spontaneous change would seriously change the
course of the future.  It seems to me it would take an INTENTIONAL
intervention by well-educated historians (from the future) and
strategic planners (past and present) to make enough of an impression
to change the future significantly.  Even then, the result could be
virtually unchanged.

In this way it remains a lane-changing line – with the appearance of
a "circle."

Helen /a? 

Helen, there's a famous Ray Bradbury short story (that I can't remember the title of, and can barely remember the details) that has a group of hunters going back in time to kill a dinosaur that was going to die anyway when a tree fell on it or something.  These hunters had to stay on a specially made platform so they wouldn't affect anything else in the past.  However, one of them steps on a butterfly and kills it.  Because of that tiny thing when they return to the future they find it completely changed beyond recognition.

Imagine you were able to go back in time and prevent the events of 9-11.  How much of what has happened in the last six months do you think would still happen?  Now, imagine how different the future would be if all those people who have died since 9-11 were still alive doing things and eventually having offspring that would themselves have further offspring, and on and on.  I think the little things matter a lot.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 10:47 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name


> No offense but I really don't take any movie novelization Apes or
> otherwise into account. Usually, these are done seperately with speck
> writers working from a shooting script without consultantion of the
> screenwriter or director. The speck writer usually has a very tight
> deadline and must flesh out a story in novel form very quickly to
> coincide with the films release date. Many times they don't even have
> a chance to see the finished film before writing the novel. In many
> cases, last minute editing changes or even reshoots can drastically
> change the tone and direction of a film and they are not reflected in
> the novelization. There are exceptions like George Lucas'
> novelization of the original Star Wars.
> But in terms of the Apes films, if and only if you subscribe to the
> temporal loop theory, Conquest and Battle could of only taken place
> in New York. Even though this has been postulated in one chronology,
> I just can't buy the the Mutants in Battle would travel cross
> country, with a nuclear missle in tow, to live underneath the
> radioactive rubble of another destroyed city. And FYI there is a
> small mountain range called the Berkshires which is Northeast of New
> York city.
>
> --- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> wrote:
> > Actually, CONQUEST, too (and BATTLE), take place on the West Coast,
> if
> > you take John Jakes' novelization into account
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 10:58 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!


> Or maybe if Hitler got laid once in a
> while. - - - Jeff
>
> Wow the same can be said about certain posters on this board.
> (Sorry but when you feed me a straight line like that one I can't
> resist.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: ThyPentacle

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:35 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

Here's a few of his works:

 

http://www.tightrope.cc/hitlerart.htm

 

Don't get me wrong, I think he was a very evil man, but he drew better than I'll ever be able to.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:15 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 1:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, agnosticdragon@... writes:

I thought Hitler tried to get into an art school???  He was a great painter, but a fucked up human being.

Hitler was a great painter?!!!  That's a new one on me.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 3:16 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

  I wish he was a better artist, he would've got accepted to art school. What I heard was people found his work cold and lacking in humanity. Little surprise.                                                 - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: ThyPentacle

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:35 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

Here's a few of his works:

 

http://www.tightrope.cc/hitlerart.htm

 

Don't get me wrong, I think he was a very evil man, but he drew better than I'll ever be able to.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:15 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 1:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, agnosticdragon@... writes:

I thought Hitler tried to get into an art school???  He was a great painter, but a fucked up human being.

Hitler was a great painter?!!!  That's a new one on me.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

>From: <veetus@...>
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name
>Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 12:01:46 -0800
>

>Go ahead and PLEASE continue talking about how 'brilliant' or
>whatever you find the circular aspect of the series to be, but don't
>be surprised if every so often you hear me say, "Bullshit!"
>
>-- Rory

> Also, Paul Dehn didn't write the original film and so there's the

> made continuity errors with the original right off the bat, such as

> being 3955 and Ape City being east of New York on long Island or

> BENEATH. He screwed it up as far as I'm concerned, AND he even

> bring the films full circle. What's so great about Paul Dehn? I

> he was the one we're all supposed to bow our heads to. What about

> Wilson or even Boulle?
>
> -- Rory

>
> But Patrick, you just keep doing your thing. I think your ideas

> sometimes, but interesting.
>
> -- Rory

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Monday, 25 February 2002 4:57
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Intolerance
>
>
> Hey buddy you really need to take a chill pill. When you're older and
> more mature you'll realize there are more important things to get
> upset about. And there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with ideas
> as long as you disagree with them respectfully. Just cause you don't
> agree with something doesn't make the logic or intellectual basis for
> it invalid. Calling them silly or stupid just makes your arguements
> weaker.
> Paul Dehn wrote the Apes film as a circle, or temporal loop, and many
> of the audience sees it that way. For those that don't, fine. You
> simply have a different interpetation that is no less valid. But at
> least show some respect for those that don't agree with you without
> all the childish name calling and nasty remarks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> That's where the makers of the new "Apes" got it wrong. They
were so busy
> saying "Oh, the originals were a reflection of their time" they
forgot to
> ask why they are still so popular today. It's not just people who
grew up
> with them. Kids are still finding them today. It dealt with eternal
themes.
> Certainly there's no more racism, war, questions about the
universe. We
> solved all that stuff in the '60's. But it has great makeup that
people
> still kinda like.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> What's with Virdon and Burke's mindset? They don't seem to
realize it's a
> one-way trip like Taylor did. Virdon keeps wanting to see his
family again
> (then why did he sign on?). They act like it was supposed to be a
leasurely
> jaunt (to Alpha
> Centauri?). - - - Jeff

> CONQUEST takes places in a megalopolis that stretches from

> Boston. Governor Breck mentions 'the provinces,' so some sort of

> have been made to the U.S. BATTLES takes place WEST of where

> is now. I like to think that the Ape City in PLANET was located

> around what is now the Blue Ridge mountains in either Virginia or

> Carolina, and that the 'dead sea' that Taylor crashes into is

> Chesapeake Bay. (Remember, Taylor was riding north when he finds

> of Liberty, so take a look at Cornelius' map in PLANET and see if

> agree with me.) Of course, the great and infallible Paul Dehn

> all up when he had Brent find the Queensborough Plaza just out side

> City in BENEATH.
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> So what about the book in the TV show showing human civilization
in 2503.
> I think the end of human civie happened after that date, leading to
the TV
> show, "Planet" and "Beneath", then Cornelius and Zira changed
history for
> "Escape", "Conquest" and "Battle". I say that 2nd timeline ends
with the
> cartoon show (which takes place after 3955). But you can leave the
latter
> off if you want. - - - Jeff

> Just for that I'm going to start World War III. You asked for
> - - - Jeff
>

> As for Michael, he the one who started it all.
> Having sex with his pet monkey.
>
> Best.
> Al

> The movie has Brent ride out of Ape City, cross a few hills and

> discover Oueensborough Plaza. That's on Long Island. That doesn't

> the first film, and that's no BULLSHIT!
>
> -- Rory

> Hey Buddy, Rory's not the only one who needs a chill pill so back

>
> You'd be surprised how old he is, so stop making assumptions and

> ass of yourself.
>
> If you want people to disagree respectfully, then set an example.
>
> Two wrongs don't make a right and if you want a bitch fight with

> it privately and to his email address.
>
> Face it, whatever Dehn intended, he did not give the timeline the

> the cerebral commitment it deserved. Either that or he was doing

> made it all appear to make sense. What we are left with is

> fetched as Patrick's to explain all the inconsistensies and these

> somewhat unsatisfied.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Monday, 25 February 2002 4:57
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Intolerance
> >
> >
> > Hey buddy you really need to take a chill pill. When you're older

> > more mature you'll realize there are more important things to get
> > upset about. And there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with

> > as long as you disagree with them respectfully. Just cause you

> > agree with something doesn't make the logic or intellectual basis

> > it invalid. Calling them silly or stupid just makes your

> > weaker.
> > Paul Dehn wrote the Apes film as a circle, or temporal loop, and

> > of the audience sees it that way. For those that don't, fine. You
> > simply have a different interpetation that is no less valid. But

> > least show some respect for those that don't agree with you

> > all the childish name calling and nasty remarks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
>
> I know about that Queensboro Plaza thing, and I'm originally from

> and lived on Long Island when I first saw PLANET in April '68, but

> Taylor indicate he crash landed in Long Island Sound? Where would

> Ape City?
>
> I think that in the first film Cornelius is holding the map

> because he doesn't now the earth's compass points -- and that the

> the bottom of his map is actually the Atlantic in the east.
>
> Remember, even in BENEATH Cornelius says that the last place he and

> Taylor was 'riding north.' Which I guess would mean that Cornelius

> his compass points, but would also indicate that the cave was south

> Statue of Liberty and that the 'dead sea' Taylor crashed into was

> cave. Also, in PLANET you see when Taylor, Nova and the apes reach

> and that area is shown on Cornelius' map. So, when they reached

> they had to have turned north to ride up the shore to the cave.
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> That's where the makers of the new "Apes" got it wrong. They
were so busy
> saying "Oh, the originals were a reflection of their time" they
forgot to
> ask why they are still so popular today. It's not just people who
grew up
> with them. Kids are still finding them today. It dealt with eternal
themes.
> Certainly there's no more racism, war, questions about the
universe. We
> solved all that stuff in the '60's. But it has great makeup that
people
> still kinda like.
> - - -
Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "emr1623" <emr1623@m...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 9:34 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name
>
>
> > Of course anyone can have an opinion! I am just curious because
> > (forgive me if I seem somewhat ignorant) I am of the mind that
movies
> > and tv reflect the moods (fears,politics,etc.) of the times when
they
> > are produced. If you were around when the originals were made, it
> > would be easier to understand the context. We were in an era of
Love
> > and Peace, yet people were rebelling against the "establishment".
> > There was Vietnam. Space exploration was new and held infinite
> > possibilities. Desegregation was a concept that many people still
> > had a hard time swallowing. There was alot of unrest and people
were
> > basically still "innocent" yet there were so many technological
> > advances being thrown at them.
> >
> > Anyway, I think you could pick the movies and series apart till
> > there's nothing left but a carcass, and in my opinion it still
comes
> > back to being merely a reflection of the times.
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > I never saw the movies in the original theatrical run but I
saw
> > the TV show during the original airings (and yes, "The Liberator"
was
> > shown). But someone could've seen them for the first time last
night
> > and have an opinion. - - -
Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Haristas@a...
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 8:33 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Lawgiver's name
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 2/24/02 11:26:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > emr1623@m... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello! I am new to this group and have been reading the
mail
> > for the past week or so. Forgive me if I seem to be ignorant or
if I
> > seem to intrude... But I have just a small question. Were any of
you
> > around to see any of the movies or TV shows when they originally
> > aired? I am trying to understand where your opinions come from.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, I was eight yeas old when I saw the original in 1968, so
> > that explains a lot of where I'm coming from. I saw everything
when
> > it originally came out or aired. What's your story? (And do you
> > have a name?)
> > >
> > > -- Rory
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., "emr1623" <emr1623@m...> wrote:
> Can I live where you live? No more racism? No more war? All of
our
> questions concerning the universe have been answered? The african-
> americans living in the projects a few miles away from me might
> disagree. And if there is no war, why is my brother-in-law sitting
> on an air-craft carrier in the Persian Gulf right now? The 2001
POTA
> is still a reflection of the times. We are learning how to better
> deal with differences in races. From what I got from the new
movie,
> there was much emphasis on the interaction between ape and human
(Ari
> and Leo) and after the battle, a coming together of species. We
are
> becoming more tolerant. The battle at Calima did not appear to be,
> to me, a win-lose situation, but more of an acceptance in spite of
> difference, a giving up of past beliefs that were based on the
> ignorance of their ancestors. It was the beginning of
> enlightenment... the place we now find ourselves.
>
> My daughter watched the movie with me several times before I asked
> her why she enjoyed it. Her response: "Mark Wahlberg is sooooo
hot!"
> LOL

----- Original Message -----

From: ThyPentacle

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 12:16 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

Found a short news snippit here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_387000/387295.stm

 

Here's a quote from it.

 

---------------

Even Hitler appeared embarrassed by the paintings when they became collectors' items at the height of his power.

He said: "I didn't want to become an artist. I painted that stuff only to make a living."

Hitler, born into a family of peasants and modest civil servants, twice failed entry examinations for the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna.

--------------

 

So it seems even if he did make it into that art school, his hunger for power would've most likely still brought him to kill all those people.

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 3:16 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

  I wish he was a better artist, he would've got accepted to art school. What I heard was people found his work cold and lacking in humanity. Little surprise.                                                 - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: ThyPentacle

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:35 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

Here's a few of his works:

 

http://www.tightrope.cc/hitlerart.htm

 

Don't get me wrong, I think he was a very evil man, but he drew better than I'll ever be able to.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:15 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Round and Round We Go!

In a message dated 2/24/02 1:35:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, agnosticdragon@... writes:

I thought Hitler tried to get into an art school???  He was a great painter, but a fucked up human being.

Hitler was a great painter?!!!  That's a new one on me.

-- Rory

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