.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 9:55:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, apeman@... writes:

Isn't Zira's double chin more of a Beneath/Escape thing? B

You are RIGHT!!!    She never looked better than she did in PLANET!

PLANET Rules!!!

-- Rory<.html

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ari & Leeta

All the female apes looked good, with the exception of Thade's sister. 

I respectfully disagree!  Ari's friend Leeta looked terrible.  That was the point at which I knew Burton had lost his mind.  No respectable director would have let her anywhere near the set even if she was John Gotti's daughter and Dick Zanuck's mistress at the same time.  I present as evidence . . . Exhibit A...
(see pic below, courtesy of Pentacles' Chimpette Directory)  Look at the difference in their lower jaw lines.  Look at Ari's ... nice and smooth.  Leeta's....Looks like what she is...an actress with a mouthful of dentures.It's as plain as the jaw on her face! 
And I agree with the nose assessment.  Anatomically correct doesn't make it cute.  If you're going to anthropomorphize them by giving them hair styles and eyebrows, I don't see why giving them Zira's cute lil' nose would be such a stretch!

<.html

<LordTZer0@...> wrote:

> I've come to appreciate Chucks over the top performance, especially after
> Wahlberg's wooden man bit.

I think the fact that Heston really chews up the scenery is one of the best
things about the film. His over the top performance is perfectly suited to
Planet of the Apes, whereas it wouldn't have worked in so many of his other
films. Love him or hate him, Heston was a perfect piece of casting.

Alan

Rory <Haristas@...> wrote:

> Thanks, T. I think? Anyway, I just want someone to tell me I'm not

nuts

> for thinking this.

You're not nuts, certainly your map appears to be a rough match - it has to
be said however that the other map was a pretty good match too.

I have to say I'm probably the lucky one in this - being completely ignorant
of US geography, the various locations used are not something that I've ever
thought about in great detail. Personally, I've always just assumed that it
all took place near New York and that's been enough for me!

Alan

"emr1623" <emr1623@...> wrote:

> http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/mega_tsunami..html"

I watched this programme when it was on TV. I'm curious - how much would it
take for someone to manipulate this volcano in such a way as to cause the
conditions necessary for this mega-tsunami? Just wondering if some enemy of
the US could do it with a couple of well-placed explosions or if it really
needs a massive natural eruption to do it.

Alan

Hey folks,

This appeared on the less-used "Ape" list.

----- Original Message -----
From: "urko_unsworth" <RoyMitchell2@...>
To: <ape@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 6:15 PM
Subject: [ape] Simian Scrolls


> Hi
> Just wanted to mention Planet of the Apes fanzine Simian Scrolls. If
> you would like to get a copy or want some details email me at
> RoyMitchell2@...
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

Isn't Zira's double chin more of a Beneath/Escape thing?

They stopped using the hair on her neck after Planet, probably at her insistence.  Consensus has it as the most uncomfortable part of the makeup.  And by the time they got 'round to doing Beneath/Escape she was around fifty.

<.html

Well Kim is over 70 now

79...Can't get much more over 70 than that and not be 80.

.html

Yes, I'm insane. P.S.: Has anyone recreated Zira's double chin better?  

Let's have a side by side Medicom / Mego pic comparison.
Then you can extol the virtues of Megos to us.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 3:35:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@... writes:

<LordTZer0@...> wrote:
> I've come to appreciate Chucks over the top performance, especially after
> Wahlberg's wooden man bit.

I think the fact that Heston really chews up the scenery is one of the best
things about the film. His over the top performance is perfectly suited to
Planet of the Apes, whereas it wouldn't have worked in so many of his other
films. Love him or hate him, Heston was a perfect piece of casting.

Alan

Could you guys please explain what it is about Heston's performance in PLANET that's 'over the top'?   I think it's one of Heston's most nuanced performances, and coming after "Will Penny" Heston was really on an acting roll.  His next part after PLANET, 1969's "Number One," was good also, though the movie was rather bad.

Hey, I love making fun of Chuck too, but I think in PLANET he was dead on perfect.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 3:37:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@... writes:

"emr1623" <emr1623@...> wrote:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/mega_tsunami..htmlbr>
I watched this programme when it was on TV. I'm curious - how much would it
take for someone to manipulate this volcano in such a way as to cause the
conditions necessary for this mega-tsunami? Just wondering if some enemy of
the US could do it with a couple of well-placed explosions or if it really
needs a massive natural eruption to do it.

Alan

I saw a show not long ago that claimed our sun will grow to a super red giant and swallow the earth in a few billion years, but we'll all be dead by then so who cares?

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 3:40:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@... writes:

> Hi
> Just wanted to mention Planet of the Apes fanzine Simian Scrolls. If
> you would like to get a copy or want some details email me at
> RoyMitchell2@...
>
> Roy

Roy!  That's pretty close to Rory.  I'll bet he'd buy my map theory!<.html

.html

Hey, I love making fun of Chuck too, but I think in PLANET he was dead on perfect.

It's a Madhouse...A MADHOOOOUSE!  YOU'RE AFRAID OF ME DOOOOCTORRR!  YOU MAINIACS!  YOU BLEW IT UP! 

Okay, I'm sure after flying thousands of years through space and landing on a planet of apes anyone would get a little wacky.  But I certainly wouldn't call Heston's performance subtle or understated in any way.  I'm glad you think it's perfect.  Even Heston himself didn't think that!  And has said as much.  He felt everyone else's performances were flawless, with the exception of Linda's, but was happy with his own.  He always wanted one more take to get it right.  Then again he wasn't standing under those lights in a monkey suit.  But I must say, over the top works better for me than that... "I'm in such disbelief that I can't emote." thing Wahlberg was doing.

Just compare . . .
What is this place?  How did these monkeys get like this?  I'm from a planet called Earth, and I'm going back there. 

Just doesn't carry as much weigh, does it?<.html

The U.K. mag "Total DVD" has an interview with Mr. Zanuck in their Feb.
issue. I assume the interview is old, perhaps when "Apes" premiered there
last summer?

On attitudes: "We designed it so it paid respect to the era the first one
came out in. The audience is different today. In the '60's, audiences were
looking for message pictures dealing with race, nuclear war and so on.
Today's audience wants more escapism - not that they just want dumb films,
but they don't want to have to deal with philosophical questions of right
and wrong. I think we would have failed had we attempted to tackle very
serious issues. We touched on things that were not to be taken too seriously
or profoundly".
Listen to him... he said in the documentary he didn't get the social
implications of the original and now he's an expert on '60's audiences? He
misread the audience then and I believe he's doing so now. Yeah, people want
escapism but not all escapism is created equal.

On a sequel: "That's up to the studio! The way the movie is doing, I think
they will have it in mind - they have a 2-picture deal with Mark Wahlberg,
but we'll have to wait and see. Nobody's writing anything yet - or maybe
they are and they haven't told Tim or I".
Again, I think this interview was before the "Apes 2" announcement a while
back. - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Calima 5021" <calima5021com@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] SW's 4th Trailer on T.V. [OT]


> Here's one trailer I won't have to post on my site.
>
>
> Next on Fox: ''When Good Jedi Go Bad!'' On March 10, the latest
> two-and-a-half-minute tease for ''Attack of the Clones'' will hit
screens --
> but not the big silver kind. In a synergistic masterstroke, the Fox
network
> (sister to ''Star Wars'' distributor Twentieth Century Fox) will air the
> trailer just before 9 p.m. EST between slightly abbreviated episodes of
> ''Malcolm in the Middle'' and ''The X-Files,'' making it the first
''Wars''
> preview to debut on TV. ''We went to Fox [TV] with this and obviously they
> jumped at the idea,'' explains Lucasfilm VP of marketing Jim Ward. ''It's
a
> win-win situation for everyone.'' The strategy isn't all corporate
> back-scratching, insists Ward. ''TV hits a lot of eyeballs.'' And fans
will
> still be able to see the trailer in theaters -- exclusively attached to
> Fox's animated ''Ice Age,'' opening March 15, and likely in front of
> ''E.T.'' and others later in March.
>
> Best.
> Al
>
>
>
>
> _____

Next week is ShoWest, the big convention in Vegas where movie exhibitors
get together to hype the product. If there's going to be an "Apes" sequel in
'03 they'll announce it there. It was at ShoWest 2 years ago that it was
announced that "Minority Report" wouldn't arrive in 2001 and they were
bumping up "Apes". At ShoWest '99 they announced Bill Broyles was going to
write the script. But I think "Apes 2" won't arrive until 2004. And yes,
Rory, I think there will be an "Apes 2".

- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Calima 5021" <calima5021com@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] SW's 4th Trailer on T.V. [OT]


> Here's one trailer I won't have to post on my site.
>
>
> Next on Fox: ''When Good Jedi Go Bad!'' On March 10, the latest
> two-and-a-half-minute tease for ''Attack of the Clones'' will hit
screens --
> but not the big silver kind. In a synergistic masterstroke, the Fox
network
> (sister to ''Star Wars'' distributor Twentieth Century Fox) will air the
> trailer just before 9 p.m. EST between slightly abbreviated episodes of
> ''Malcolm in the Middle'' and ''The X-Files,'' making it the first
''Wars''
> preview to debut on TV. ''We went to Fox [TV] with this and obviously they
> jumped at the idea,'' explains Lucasfilm VP of marketing Jim Ward. ''It's
a
> win-win situation for everyone.'' The strategy isn't all corporate
> back-scratching, insists Ward. ''TV hits a lot of eyeballs.'' And fans
will
> still be able to see the trailer in theaters -- exclusively attached to
> Fox's animated ''Ice Age,'' opening March 15, and likely in front of
> ''E.T.'' and others later in March.
>
> Best.
> Al
>
>
>
>
> _____

Don't give them any ideas! Just 'cause you don't live
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] new theory


> "emr1623" <emr1623@...> wrote:
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/mega_tsunami..html"
>
> I watched this programme when it was on TV. I'm curious - how much would
it
> take for someone to manipulate this volcano in such a way as to cause the
> conditions necessary for this mega-tsunami? Just wondering if some enemy
of
> the US could do it with a couple of well-placed explosions or if it really
> needs a massive natural eruption to do it.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 3:13 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] MEDICOM's USA!!!

Yes, I'm insane. P.S.: Has anyone recreated Zira's double chin better?  

Let's have a side by side Medicom / Mego pic comparison.
Then you can extol the virtues of Megos to us.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 3:13 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Get off Chuck's back!

In a message dated 3/1/02 3:35:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@... writes:

<LordTZer0@...> wrote:
> I've come to appreciate Chucks over the top performance, especially after
> Wahlberg's wooden man bit.

I think the fact that Heston really chews up the scenery is one of the best
things about the film. His over the top performance is perfectly suited to
Planet of the Apes, whereas it wouldn't have worked in so many of his other
films. Love him or hate him, Heston was a perfect piece of casting.

Alan

Could you guys please explain what it is about Heston's performance in PLANET that's 'over the top'?   I think it's one of Heston's most nuanced performances, and coming after "Will Penny" Heston was really on an acting roll.  His next part after PLANET, 1969's "Number One," was good also, though the movie was rather bad.

Hey, I love making fun of Chuck too, but I think in PLANET he was dead on perfect.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

His over the top performance is perfectly suited to
Planet of the Apes, whereas it wouldn't have worked in so many of his other
films. Love him or hate him, Heston was a perfect piece of casting.

See!  Just because it's over-the-top, doesn't make it perfect!
I couldn't see Paul Newman doing it.  Or other former Epic stars.
Oh there are a couple whom might have been able to do it some justice...
Richard Burton or Marlon Brando, maybe.
Kirk Douglas might have been good.
Though some of the other Sword & Sandal guys are as imposing phisically, they just don't have Heston's screen persona.  Can you imagine Victor Mature? 
YOU MANIACS!  YOU BLEW IT UP!.....Not the same, is it?
I've often tried to imagine what it would have been like with some of the early casting ideas. Rock Hudson, Natalie Wood, Eddy G, etc... Not the same, is it?

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 3:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] new theory

In a message dated 3/1/02 3:37:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, alan@... writes:

"emr1623" <emr1623@...> wrote:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/mega_tsunami..html"

I watched this programme when it was on TV. I'm curious - how much would it
take for someone to manipulate this volcano in such a way as to cause the
conditions necessary for this mega-tsunami? Just wondering if some enemy of
the US could do it with a couple of well-placed explosions or if it really
needs a massive natural eruption to do it.

Alan

I saw a show not long ago that claimed our sun will grow to a super red giant and swallow the earth in a few billion years, but we'll all be dead by then so who cares?

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

I meant to say "Just 'cause you don't live HERE". (sigh)
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <veetus@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] new theory


> Don't give them any ideas! Just 'cause you don't live
> - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 12:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] new theory
>
>
> > "emr1623" <emr1623@...> wrote:
> > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/mega_tsunami..html"
> >
> > I watched this programme when it was on TV. I'm curious - how much would
> it
> > take for someone to manipulate this volcano in such a way as to cause
the
> > conditions necessary for this mega-tsunami? Just wondering if some enemy
> of
> > the US could do it with a couple of well-placed explosions or if it
really
> > needs a massive natural eruption to do it.
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 7:02:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

It's a Madhouse...A MADHOOOOUSE!  YOU'RE AFRAID OF ME DOOOOCTORRR!  YOU MAINIACS!  YOU BLEW IT UP! 

You forgot the best:  YOU CUT UP HIS BRAIN, YOU BLOODY BABOON!  But, hey come on, this stuff is great.

Here's a question for everyone:  How would you 'act' if you landed on the planet of the apes?  You can pick either the planet of Boulle's book, the original movie, or the new piece of crap.

-- Rory<.html

.html

This appeared on the less-used "Ape" list.

Whenever I see posts pop up there I try and hip them to this group.
Of course I make them aware of the heavy email traffic and dislike for splitters who can't seem to unsubscribe themselves.  I just can't stand for Apes fans to be missing out on all these scintillating conversations.  Off topic political discussions and email loops aside.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 7:11:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

. And yes,
Rory, I think there will be an "Apes 2".

                                                              - - - Jeff

Does there have to be?  THEY CUT OUT ITS BRAINS, THOSE BLOODY BABOONS!  AND THAT'S WHAT THEY'LL DO WITH THE NEXT ONE!  Oh, sorry.  I was getting a little over the top there.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 7:13:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

I have them both. You're right, the Medicom looks better. I guess it was a nostalgia thing. But I still like the Mego better.                                    - - - Jeff

Mego get some Medicoms, okay Veetus?<.html

.html

or maybe they are and they haven't told Tim or I".

I do hope they'll consult me first.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 7:15:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

Don't give them any ideas! Just 'cause you don't live
      - - - Jeff

Toodles, Jeffery, Toodles!!<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 7:17:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

See!  Just because it's over-the-top, doesn't make it perfect!
I couldn't see Paul Newman doing it.  Or other former Epic stars.
Oh there are a couple whom might have been able to do it some justice...
Richard Burton or Marlon Brando, maybe.
Kirk Douglas might have been good.
Though some of the other Sword & Sandal guys are as imposing phisically, they just don't have Heston's screen persona.  Can you imagine Victor Mature? 
YOU MANIACS!  YOU BLEW IT UP!.....Not the same, is it?
I've often tried to imagine what it would have been like with some of the early casting ideas. Rock Hudson, Natalie Wood, Eddy G, etc... Not the same, is it?

How about Burt Lancaster?   He could have really given Dr. Zaius a good bite.  Oh, and Victor Mature was cool.  I love him in HEAD.

-- Rory<.html

.html

How would you 'act' if you landed on the planet of the apes?  You can pick either the planet of Boulle's book, the original movie, or the new piece of crap

I piiiiick...Beneath!  I know that wasn't on your list.
But as Bruce Lee said to James Fanciscus on the TV show Longstreet . . .
"Be like Brent, my friend...Be like Brent."<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 7:48:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

I piiiiick...Beneath!  I know that wasn't on your list.
But as Bruce Lee said to James Fanciscus on the TV show Longstreet . . .
"Be like Brent, my friend...Be like Brent."

Oh, talk about over the top!  "GET OUT OF MY HEAD!"

Good ol' Jimmy Franciscus.  Damn fool smoked himself to death.

-- Rory<.html

.html

How about Burt Lancaster?   He could have really given Dr. Zaius a good bite.  Oh, and Victor Mature was cool.  I love him in HEAD.

Yeah, I thought about Burt, but he and Kirk always seemed like a team and of the two he seemed the better choice.  Burt may be taller but Kirk's a better screamer.  Victure was cool in HEAD, but it was his performances in Samson & Dalila and The Robe that made me think of him.  "YOU KILLED HIM!  MURDERERS!"  Great Stuff.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 8:22:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Victor was cool in HEAD, but it was his performances in Samson & Dalila and The Robe that made me think of him.  "YOU KILLED HIM!  MURDERERS!"  Great Stuff.

Yeah, I got THE ROBE on DVD.  I should also get DEMETRIUS AND THE GLADIATORS and I wish Fox would hurry up and put out THE EGYPTIAN on DVD, but the best movie Victor Mature made at Fox was KISS OF DEATH.  That's not on DVD yet either.<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 01, 2002 4:35 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Get off Chuck's back!

In a message dated 3/1/02 7:02:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

It's a Madhouse...A MADHOOOOUSE!  YOU'RE AFRAID OF ME DOOOOCTORRR!  YOU MAINIACS!  YOU BLEW IT UP! 

You forgot the best:  YOU CUT UP HIS BRAIN, YOU BLOODY BABOON!  But, hey come on, this stuff is great.

Here's a question for everyone:  How would you 'act' if you landed on the planet of the apes?  You can pick either the planet of Boulle's book, the original movie, or the new piece of crap.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

True and there are so many other things about Chuck we can make fun
of like his bad toupee or that he's President of NRA.

>
> Could you guys please explain what it is about Heston's performance

in PLANET

> that's 'over the top'? I think it's one of Heston's most nuanced
> performances, and coming after "Will Penny" Heston was really on an

acting

> roll. His next part after PLANET, 1969's "Number One," was good

also, though

> the movie was rather bad.
>
> Hey, I love making fun of Chuck too, but I think in PLANET he was

dead on

> perfect.
>
> -- Rory

It seems that the Battle subtitles in Japanese will be removeded after all.
My dvd editor seems to be doing the trick nicely. But I still have to run
some more tests.

I'll keep you all posted on that venture.

Best.
Al



_____

Well, as much as it was possible to remove the subtitles, in turn the
quality of the re-capture drops. So while there will be no subtitles the
quality in picture drops to just above Video-CD quality (lower than video
tape), which in my opinion, sucks.

So subtitles will remain, and quality will remain at original laser disc
quality.

Best.
Al

P.S. hey, I tried.




_____

Attachments :

OK Since Rory brought up some interesting points the other day; I thought I thought I'd answer him with this map. This is how I see all this.
Feel free to flame me now. LOL

.html

Feel free to flame me now. LOL

Uhhhhhhhhh...okay.
The Statue of Livery is too far inland.
And You Dork Shitty looks like it's in Jersey there, Jerky.
Now let me anticipate the backdraft of flames on this.
The topography has changed after the bombs and thousands of years.
But you did ask...so....

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 12:41:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, calima5021com@... writes:

Well, as much as it was possible to remove the subtitles, in turn the
quality of the re-capture drops. So while there will be no subtitles the
quality in picture drops to just above Video-CD quality (lower than video
tape), which in my opinion, sucks.

So subtitles will remain, and quality will remain at original laser disc
quality.

Best.
Al

I agree, Al.  Keep the quality, I'll ignore the subtitles.  If it looked like a video-CD, I wouldn't be interested.  So, I look forward to when you've got this DVD ready.

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: JamesA1102@...

Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 10:28 AM

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Map

 

OK Since Rory brought up some interesting points the other day; I thought I thought I'd answer him with this map. This is how I see all this.
Feel free to flame me now. LOL

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/1/02 9:31:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

True and there are so many other things about Chuck we can make fun
of like his bad toupee or that he's President of NRA.

I love the movie star Charlton Heston of the fifties and sixties, but after the early seventies he became just a right-wing, rug-wearing pomposity.  I met him in 1978 and was less than impressed, still he made some great movies, too bad in real life he's, as BENEATH director Ted Post says, an egomaniac.  His whole involvement with the NRA is about stroking his ego and keeping himself in the limelight.

-- Rory

<.html

Is it true, based on his original deal with Jacobs, that he gets 5%
of the gross of any POTA film he appears in? Which would explain why
he did the cameo in the remake.

> I love the movie star Charlton Heston of the fifties and sixties,

but after

> the early seventies he became just a right-wing, rug-wearing

pomposity. I

> met him in 1978 and was less than impressed, still he made some

great movies,

> too bad in real life he's, as BENEATH director Ted Post says, an

egomaniac.

> His whole involvement with the NRA is about stroking his ego and

keeping

> himself in the limelight.
>
> -- Rory

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 10:27:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

OK Since Rory brought up some interesting points the other day; I thought I thought I'd answer him with this map. This is how I see all this.
Feel free to flame me now. LOL

I wish I knew how to do this same sort of thing, but I'm pretty bad with computers.  Anyway, James, I'll be kind.  I think it's pretty obvious in PLANET and BENEATH that the cave and the Statue of Liberty are on the ocean shore, not the inland sea as you have it.  Also, I can't see the ruins of Manhattan being so close to where the apes live, so even if I agreed with you that this map showed an area close to New York City, I still would place the city just off the right of the map.  In any event, I don't think Cornelius' map in PLANET works for BENEATH and that's probably why they didn't show it again in BENEATH.  I really believe that it's wrong to try and bend the events of PLANET to try and make it fit with what comes in BENEATH.  They had know idea there'd be a sequel when they made PLANET.  There simply are continuity errors that I find it's better to just ignore.  The Planet of the Apes series is very much like the Universal Frankenstein series.  You just look at each film as a separate entity that's merely based on what happened in the film before -- EXCEPT for the original, which justly should stand alone.

I have to say that I really feel sorry for you APES fans that have this mad fixation that all the films have to fit together as a greater saga.  It's not how these films were made and if you look at them without the childhood nostalgia it's not how they work today.  It's an illusion, "mere illusion."

Anyway, that's my opinion.  It's been fun.

-- Rory<.html

All I can say that if they made the Nove figure in a lifesize
version, I would marry it. LOL

Damn. You're in a good mood today.

> I wish I knew how to do this same sort of thing, but I'm pretty bad

with

> computers. Anyway, James, I'll be kind. I think it's pretty

obvious in

> PLANET and BENEATH that the cave and the Statue of Liberty are on

the ocean

> shore, not the inland sea as you have it. Also, I can't see the

ruins of

> Manhattan being so close to where the apes live, so even if I

agreed with you

> that this map showed an area close to New York City, I still would

place the

> city just off the right of the map. In any event, I don't think

Cornelius'

> map in PLANET works for BENEATH and that's probably why they didn't

show it

> again in BENEATH. I really believe that it's wrong to try and bend

the

> events of PLANET to try and make it fit with what comes in

BENEATH. They had

> know idea there'd be a sequel when they made PLANET. There simply

are

> continuity errors that I find it's better to just ignore. The

Planet of the

> Apes series is very much like the Universal Frankenstein series.

You just

> look at each film as a separate entity that's merely based on what

happened

> in the film before -- EXCEPT for the original, which justly should

stand

> alone.
>
> I have to say that I really feel sorry for you APES fans that have

this mad

> fixation that all the films have to fit together as a greater

saga. It's not

> how these films were made and if you look at them without the

childhood

> nostalgia it's not how they work today. It's an illusion, "mere

illusion."

>
> Anyway, that's my opinion. It's been fun.
>
> -- Rory

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 11:18:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Damn. You're in a good mood today.

Yes, I am.  Also. . . I think you've missed, James, with all your viewings of PLANET that when Zira and Lucius with the wagon meet Cornelius with the horses and supplies that they are on the site of the hunt.  That's why Taylor says to the apes about Nova that "She's close to home.  She knows it."  Also, the party then rides past where the scarecrows are, and there was some dialogue cut that indicated that Taylor wanted to return to the spot where the raft and U.S. flag was, but that Cornelius was against it.

James, you keep at, and remember, "Never trust an APES fan over thirty."

-- Rory<.html

Jesus H. Christ, but it takes a hell of a long time to wade through 6
days' worth of postings! Those of you who indicated that you missed my
input here, gosh thanks. Yesterday was my 37th birthday, BTW (as
Dennis said in MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL, "I'm thirty-seven, I'm
not old!").

Before I get to continuing on with what I had been yakking about, let
me weigh in on the topics y'all have been posting about.

1. I live in Fargo (now West Fargo), North Dakota, and the Red River
of the North does indeed flow northward. Rivers are made of water, and
water is subject to gravity, and gravity pulls DOWNWARD, not
SOUTHWARD, people! Just because most of our maps have NORTH on top
doesn't mean that SOUTH equals 'DOWN'!

2. Rory's right about my opinion regarding the location of PLANET:
since I take the 5 films and the 14 episodes as canon (for the sake of
my novel-in-progress), the Forbidden Zone next to the simian-inhabited
areas is the remains of New York City. To me, it doesn't matter if you
can (or cannot) match up modern-day maps to Cornelius' map, since
drastic topological changes have obviously altered the coastlines.
Instead of being on a small island, the Statue of Liberty ends up on
the shoreline of a major landmass (Taylor and Nova don't ride the back
of their swimming horse from New Jersey to Liberty Island!)--the water
separating New Jersey and Manhattan from Liberty Island somehow gets
"filled in" with land. In my novel's scenario, I'm going to have there
be not just a Nuclear War (which would do a hell of a lot of damage
alone), but also a Nuke-War-triggered "earth crust displacement"/"pole
shift". The entire crust of the planet will move relative to the Core
and Mantle beneath it, "lubricated" by the magma at the "Moho
discontinuity" between the Crust and the Mantle, sending North America
southward, Australia and Antarctica northward, and the new
geographical coordinate grid will be such that the new Equator will
pass through North America, South America, Antarctica, western
Australia, eastern China... with the new North Pole occupied by the
obliterated city of Jerusalem. Why am I doing this? For symbolic
reasons, partly; I'm a "student" of Dante's "Commedia" (it would take
too long here to explain how this matters, but if you take into
account the notion that Dante wrote with intensive allegorical
purposes, and the POTA series is replete with its own allegories--
including a "dantean" detail: Virgil is named after the Roman poet who
guided Dante through the Inferno (just as Virgil accompanies Caesar
and MacDonald through the "hell" of the Forbidden City)--then the way
that I am "re-fashioning" the face of the planet (cartographically) is
in order to draw parallels to cartographical concepts that "mattered"
to guys like Dante.
The massive vulcanism that would happen if the earth's crust were to
"flow" over the sublayers would help to destroy surface details that
would tend to give away the fact that the near-Ape City locale was
once a teeming metropolis. Remember in BEHIND THE POTA, when Bill
Creber says that the inspiration for the design of Ape City was the
troglodyte cave-city in Turkey (Cappodocia)? I suggest that Ape City
was formed via a similar process: the lava that buries New York City
(after the Pole Shift which was after the Nuke War) eventually cools,
and its rocky material (called "tufa") is less hard than, say,
granite; in other words, it can be hollowed-out and sculpted into the
shapes we see in "downtown" Ape City.
The surface of the Forbidden Zone is almost entirely unrecognizable,
consisting of stretches of flatness (i.e. when the astronauts begin
seeing plantlife sporadically) and buttes, mesas, crags, mountains,
etc. The shot of skyscrapers in BENEATH shows a part of what I would
guess is lower Manhattan jutting above the rest (and obviously not
visible during the routes taken by the astronauts from Dead Lake to
the "hunt" area and from Ape City to the river valley (Taylor asking
Cornelius "Where does this river lead to?") and on to the coast. How
can the Mutant community live in a lava-filled subsurface New York?
Answer: after the lava flows ceased, the polar ice sheets (now being
located in the tropical zones, due to the Pole Shift) melt... and
melt... and melt... and all that water helps to raise the sea levels
hundreds of feet. A huge amount of ice water from the Greenland/
northern Canada area flows towards the New York area and washes out a
few skyscraper stories' worth of tufa, down to the bedrock and
throughout the subway tunnels. Eventually, the tropical temperatures
have completely melted away the ice sheets and the water ceases to
flow... and the underwater ruins of New York are now devoid of
hardened lava and the water that washed it away.
How's that for a mind-fuck? (Pardon, please, my harsh language!)

3. Sorry, Rory, but the Statue of Liberty can't be too far down the
coastline, since Zaius knows it's out there to be found: (ZAIUS:
"Don't look for it, Taylor... you may not like what you'll find.";
ZIRA: "What will he find out there, Doctor?" ZAIUS: "His destiny.") I
can't see Zaius (years earlier) having trekked out over a hundred
miles along the coast, away from Ape City, in order to find this
ancient artifact. But, hey, you're free to think it, if it floats your
boat.

4. Is BENEATH a "mess"? I'll admit that Paul Dehn flubbed royally a
number of times (chronologically, and so on)... but the "modus
operandi" I'm going by in order to concoct my novel's scenario
involves "unflubbing" Dehn's "flubs". It takes effort, natch, to get
his mistakes turned into non-mistakes (after the fact, of course), but
it CAN be done. The same goes for the "mistakes" introduced by the TV
series...

... which brings me back to the stuff I was talking about in posting
#14952 (please re-read it before continuing on).

As I was saying, the "scientists" who left the holograph projector in
the Oakland Science Institute building ("The Legacy") wanted not only
to preserve human knowledge for the poor schmucks who had to endure
living in post-apocalypse USA, but they also try to set up a "New
America" elsewhere on the planet, somewhere that doesn't get wiped out
as devastatingly as North America, Europe, Asia, etc. They create a
"New America" on the Pole-Shifted continent of Australia... which,
since it is no longer strictly in the southern ("australis")
hemisphere, needs a new name. These "jeffersonian rationalist"
scientists believe that the devastated world needs "true Americanism"
in order to get past the awful setback that wipes out most of
civilization in 2006 A.D. (a catastrophe that had happened, in part,
because the USA--in the POTA universe--had "lost its way", becoming a
totalitarian country). Since "old America" (i.e. "North America") is
for the most part a radioactive wasteland, and what-was-once-Australia
is NOT overly radioactive (yet IS geologically marred by the Pole
Shift, and civilization did collapse there), they descend from their
orbiting science research station at L-5 (in my book, some people call
it the "elf-hive" due to the homophony: "L-five"/"elf-hive") to the
surface, and re-name Australia "New America"... and their descendants
eventually build new cities named after famous cities from "old
America", including a new "New York City" on the Cape York Peninsula.
The photograph Virdon & Burke see (in Farrow's old book) of "New York
City, 2503" is NOT the North American city (it doesn't resemble it in
any way--it's all "futuristic", with no recognizable landmarks), but
rather a new city named in honor of the former.
Why does this book end up in the California area of "old America", in
what Burke calls an ancient "bomb shelter"? In my novel's scenario, it
takes several generations for the "New Americans" to build up their
civilization; by 2500, they've gotten to the point where they're
building futuristic cities, having decided to create a "utopia" of
sorts on their own continent, having also declared the rest of the
planet "off-limits" for several centuries, in order to let it heal
from the nuclear devastation. Every so often, historical "away teams"
venture out to recover bits and pieces for their museums. Their
artificial satellites constantly scan the surface of the other
continents, looking for signs that survivors (if there are any) have
begun to make use of higher technology... but they eventually despair
of this throughout the first "hemi-millennium" of their history (i.e.
from 2013 through to the end of the 25th century).
In my scenario, the high-tech civilization of "New America" becomes a
spacefaring culture, sending out ships piloted by astronauts into
space. 'New American' astronauts from one of these missions eventually
land back on Earth in 3073... and they end up being captured and
killed by Urko and Zaius; these "as-tro-nauts" (as Urko remembers they
called themselves) came from "another time period" (as Zaius says),
but they couldn't have been ANSA astronauts (like Taylor and Virdon),
since Virdon didn't recognize the little hand-grenades Zaius had kept
after confiscating them from those "different" humans.
The "book" in Farrow's cave? How did it get there? During the time
between the departure of the New American spaceship (in 2500 A.D.--in
a nod to Boulle's original novel) and the time period "between the
Lawgivers" (i.e. 2670-to-2755), New Americans find out about the
primitive culture of Apes and Humans living in habitable areas of Old
America, and they send "missionaries" over there, to try to help guide
them along the path that has worked so well for New America...
...but there are "ape-supremacist" types who fear the high-tech
humans, and their influence on the humans they've dwelt with... and
the anti-technology group of apes (the "Zaius" of the 27th century,
ancestor to the TV Zaius, who was an ancestor to the PLANET/BENEATH
Zaius) fights back against them. The New American "missionaries" are
killed by human-hating gorilla militias, and those few who survive
"hole up" in out-of-the-way caves, etc. [think "underground railroad"
here] One location where the missionaries hides out is the "cave" near
Chalo, and books from New America ("history books" dealing primarily
with pre-Catastrophe times, math textbooks, physics/chemistry/etc.
textbooks... most of which don't have pictures--leading to Farrow's
use of them as fuel for campfires) were stored there... and forgotten
when the last people who knew they were there were slaughtered during
the Ape-vs-Human race war following the "Ornan period" (c. 2755 and
following). Farrow ends up finding the "secret cave", burning most of
the books (save those which had pictures in them), and dragging two
unconscious ANSA astronauts (Virdon and Burke) there in 3085.
So, then... Farrow's book ("New York City, 2503"), and the high-tech
grenades Zaius confiscated from the "as-tro-nauts", and the holo-
projector ("The Legacy") are all connected (in my scenario)... and it
is Virdon's mission to find surviving traces of this perhaps still-
surviving culture, hoping that they have a computer he can use to
analyze the magnetic flight recorder disc in order to reverse the
process that got them there...
There's more to it, of course, including that goddamned dog that Arno
somehow has! I don't want to give away ALL of my scenario here, folks,
but let me just say that Arno's dog can exist... if you buy into the
notion that canine genetic material (perhaps kept in New America labs)
can be used to "re-create" an extinct species... as in JURASSIC PARK,
for the dinosaurs. The proximity of Arno's dog to the "cave" near
Chalo helps to suggest a connection...

By the way, I think it's worth mentioning the parallel between "The
Legacy" and Isaac Asimov's FOUNDATION series. The holographic
projection of a spokesman for "the Scientists" bears an uncanny
resemblance to the "psychohistorian" Hari Seldon, who would re-appear
after each "Seldon crisis" to clue the First Foundationers on Terminus
in on how the "Seldon plan" is unfolding...
The First Foundation, remember, is set up by "encyclopedists", who are
preserving all the scientific knowledge of the Galactic Empire, hoping
that it will survive the collapse of that empire, and give an "edge"
to the Foundation in its struggles throughout the Future...
This sounds a lot like the scenario from that TV episode: the
"scientists" knew that their world would be wiped out soon, but they
left behind "caches" of knowledge in various cities throughout the
world (including the one in the train station at Oakland), as well as
holo-projectors telling where the nearest cache is located.
Could it be that "the Scientists" are also science fiction
afficionados? After all, they could have gotten the idea to preserve
scientific knowledge from an Asimov fan... or even from Asimov himself
(that is, if--in the POTA universe--Isaac lived a longer life than he
actually did... and was a member of the "group" who wanted Humanity to
have a way to survive the impending Ape Revolution and Nuclear War).
Something to think about, isn't it? What would be the reaction of the
great SF writers (Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Niven, Bova, etc.) to the
arrival of the "Ape-onauts" from the Future, from the "end of the
world"? These guys are futurists, concerned about mankind's long-term
survival... what would they do if they KNEW that there would soon be a
nuclear war, and that human-dominating intelligent apes are
"prophesied" to subjugate the human race (in at least SOME areas of
the world)? Wouldn't it be likely that they would try to DO something
along the lines of Hari Seldon's "foundationers"?

Incidentally, given the chat earlier about how Time/History would be
changed if, say, Hitler's art/architectural interests had been
encouraged (giving him a non-political purpose to his life), look at
it through the "lens" of an Asimovian psychohistorian: although there
ARE individuals who can and do have pivotal influences on the course
of history, for the most part it is in GROUP behavior that the trends
of history tend to lead to conditions of society along any "timeline".
Would the absense of a megalomaniacal Adolf Hitler have led to a less
war-torn world in the 1930's and 1940's? What about the prevalence of
German anti-semitism? Hitler didn't instill that "race-hatred" where
it hadn't been initially--the German people (generally, not all-
inclusively, of course) tended to have low opinions of Jews throughout
most of European history since the Middle Ages (at least). Whether led
by a Hitler or by someone else, this societal factor (race hatred)
would probably have festered and burst out inevitably. So, too, would
the responses of the Allied nations to Germanic militarism.
Lately, there are those who "thank God" that the Supreme Court handed
George W. Bush the presidency, thinking that Al Gore would have
somehow botched it had HE been granted the office of President. Quite
frankly, after 9/11, I think that ANY man (or even woman) who happened
to be in office during this crisis would have HAD to do pretty much
what Bush has done--the "will of the people" would have demanded as
much. And Bush--like any other politician--tends to do what he knows
the public demands, in the wake of this horrendous attack. Hell, even
if this had happened a year earlier, when Clinton was in office, even
Bill Clinton would have responded along the lines that Bush is doing;
none of the prior Al-Qaeda attacks (on embassies, on the USS Cole,
etc.) come even remotely close to the severity of the WTC/Pentagon
attack. The American people would not have given their backing to an
anti-terrorism all-out war prior to 9/11 (not even after the Cole
bombing); the assault on US soil galvanized not just the current
president but the populace as well.
It's too bad that the CIA (and other DOD intel agencies) don't have a
team of "psychohistorians" on the payroll, to anticipate the anti-
American trends festering all over the Muslim world, and the outbreaks
of violence that those trends lead to.
It's also too bad that so much retarded effort was expended over a
semen-stained dress in a blatantly partisan attempt to "void" the
results of the 1996 election (which was NOT a close one, like the 2000
election was). Imagine if all the effort expended to impeach and try
President Clinton (and the EXPENSE!) were to have been channeled to,
say, counter-terrorism forces in our Defense department. Maybe the
WTC/Pentagon tragedy could have been prevented. Maybe not. The CIA, I
think it must be admitted, was NOT on the ball. 19 jerks known to be
affiliated with Osama... clustered onto 4 different airplanes at the
same time... am I the only one who thinks that there were enough red
flags going up, and that SOMEONE in our intel agencies should have
been able to connect the dots? I sure hope they're doing a better job
NOW, after the damage has been done (or just begun)...

One other item, this time regarding the POTA chronology (especially in
regards to Cornelius in ESCAPE mentioning the "centuries" between the
Pet Plague and simian enslavement). Remember when he is asked by the
Presidential Commission about his use of the "English" language?
Cornelius replies, "What is 'english'? I speak the language taught to
me by my father, who was taught by his father before him. It has been
the language of my people for roughly TWO THOUSAND YEARS..."
(this is from memory, mind you, so it's not EXACTLY verbatim, but it's
close enough to what Roddy said).
How, if "an ape named Aldo" didn't grunt, but "said 'No!'" some 500
years AFTER the plague which kills off all the dogs and cats, HOW (I
ask you) can the English language be spoken for 2000 years from the
time of the plague to the time of the first 2 films (3955)? Why didn't
Cornelius say that English "has been the language of my people for
roughly FIFTEEN HUNDRED YEARS" instead of for 2000 years (i.e. from c.
2483-ish to 3955)? This is an important clue which bolsters my
hypothesis that Cornelius (and Zira, following his lead) purposely
misleads Hasslein about the chronology of Humanity's downfall and
Simian ascendancy, saying "centuries" where the actual "hidden/secret
scrolls" say "years", giving a false sense of security. Cornelius, I
think, is hoping that his earlier testimony ("English" language for
2000 years) would be forgotten, in favor of this CIA/NSA "inquisition"
information--which Cornelius had every reason to feel would lead to
dire consequences for him and Zira and their unborn child.

I'll check in tomorrow, to see whatever responses y'all might have.
C'iao, G'bye, Toodles, Hasta la vista baby!

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 3-02-2002

Of course you're assuming that Nova's home was close to the site of
the hunt. Hey, One field look like another to this city boy. And the
Apes would only put the scarecrows at one place and not have them
dotted at various points on the border with the forbidden zone. Also,
the line that was in the film has Cornelius saying its a long detour
to the dead lake which wouldn't be true if they started at the area
of the hunt. I based the route on the map on the film showing them
following a river to the coast.

>
> Yes, I am. Also. . . I think you've missed, James, with all your

viewings of

> PLANET that when Zira and Lucius with the wagon meet Cornelius with

the

> horses and supplies that they are on the site of the hunt. That's

why Taylor

> says to the apes about Nova that "She's close to home. She knows

it." Also,

> the party then rides past where the scarecrows are, and there was

some

> dialogue cut that indicated that Taylor wanted to return to the

spot where

> the raft and U.S. flag was, but that Cornelius was against it.
>
> James, you keep at, and remember, "Never trust an APES fan over

thirty."

>
> -- Rory

>The ruins of New York in Beneath are all from the 20th Century.
>Unless you think they'd still have dial telephones, buses and subways
>in the 25th century.

Good point. I don't think anyone's brought up that before. One
of the nice things about the POTA list is that we point out things
people hadn't considered before. The Secret Scrolls got the name of
the revolution's leader right "Aldo", but Cornelius probably just made
a guess on the timing based on his knowledge of archeology.

>And to quote Mr. Dehn on the subject:
>"The whole thing has become a very logical development in the form of
>a circle", explained Paul Dehn, "I have a complete chronology of the

Paul Dehn didn't write the last movie BATTLE, so whether he ever said
that is irrelevent. All of the evidence consistently points against a
circular timeline.

>time circle mapped out". From 'Evolution=MC2' by Paul A. Woods in The
>Planet of the Apes Chronicles.

If that's the same timeline use by Marvel the consensus here is that it
is a joke.

>
>> Of course there is equal evidence to support 2 timelines. But both
>> points of view are valid.

No, Rory's point about the non-circular timeline is supported completely
by the evidence in the movies. From what I see it is just impossible
for PLANET and BENEATH to have occured in the same timeline as BATTLE.
A lot of people don't understand what is going on in BATTLE. The entire
point of that movie is that Caesar is on a mission to save the the world
from being destroyed. When he defeats Aldo and grants humans equality near
the end we already have a clue that things have changed drastically. But
what removes any and all doubt is the Lawgiver scene, which is why that
scene was added even though at first glance it contributes nothing to the plot.

"...and I still live by it's injunction".
Dr. Zaius

The Lawgiver's influence on the apes culture is comparable to that of
Confucius if not Jesus in medieval times. His ideas have the status of
religious dogma, and to contradict him or his Sacred Scrolls is heresy,
which is a state crime. When Taylor asks Dr. Zaius why he fears and
hates him, Zaius reveals that the Sacred Scrolls are the reason for
his and his culture's bigotry. But in the BATTLE timeline when you
see the Lawgiver talking to human as well as ape children you realize
that the Lawgiver's attitude has been changed into the opposite of his
original bigotry as the result of Caesar's actions and existence. No
doubt the (very old) Lawgiver in the altered timeline preaches tolerance
and coexistence among the species.

Ask yourself the question, if Jesus had nearly the exact opposite views
he did in our history would everything still be the same as it is now?
Of course, we all know it would be ridiculous to suppose so. The same
thing applies to the POTA world.

And please don't say there is more than one Lawgiver. The Lawgiver in
BATTLE was definitely meant to be the same ape spoken of in PLANET. He's
the same one that Zaius calls "The greatest ape of all", otherwise it
would be pointless including that last scene in BATTLE.

When you watch the apes movies the first or second time and don't pay
close attention a circular timeline seems plausible. But when you watch
the movies the 5th, 10th or 25th time you notice things you may have missed
the 2nd time.

>would always be capable of it. And I still believe there had to be an
>original timeline (or history) that lead to the world Taylor lands in (in
>3978!) that would then allow the chimps to return to the past IN ORDER TO
>SAVE THE WORLD! Besides, the apes being made into slaves happens independent
>of the chimp-o-nauts arriving in 1973 anyway, in fact have you ever thought
>how strange it is that Cornelius tells the government that apes being made
>into slaves will lead to man's overthrow, and yet the government lets it
>happen anyway? This is one of the many flaws in logic that makes it kind of
>silly to try to correct it all as one perfectly round egg. This
>Humpty-Dumpty just don't fit together.
>
>
>-- Rory

Dehn wrote the first and finally drafts of Battle. Check Joe Russo's
book if you want.
And no its not the same timeline from Marvel. You're right that one
was a joke.

> Paul Dehn didn't write the last movie BATTLE, so whether he ever

said

> that is irrelevent.

.html<.html

.html<.html

You make a very good case, but I still think it good go either way.
It's just up to personal interpetation with no right or wrong answer.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> >
> >> Of course there is equal evidence to support 2 timelines. But
both
> >> points of view are valid.
>
> No, Rory's point about the non-circular timeline is supported
completely
> by the evidence in the movies. From what I see it is just
impossible
> for PLANET and BENEATH to have occured in the same timeline as
BATTLE.
> A lot of people don't understand what is going on in BATTLE. The
entire
> point of that movie is that Caesar is on a mission to save the the
world
> from being destroyed. When he defeats Aldo and grants humans
equality near
> the end we already have a clue that things have changed
drastically. But
> what removes any and all doubt is the Lawgiver scene, which is why
that
> scene was added even though at first glance it contributes nothing
to the plot.
>
> "...and I still live by it's injunction".
> Dr. Zaius
>
> The Lawgiver's influence on the apes culture is comparable to that
of
> Confucius if not Jesus in medieval times. His ideas have the
status of
> religious dogma, and to contradict him or his Sacred Scrolls is
heresy,
> which is a state crime. When Taylor asks Dr. Zaius why he fears and
> hates him, Zaius reveals that the Sacred Scrolls are the reason for
> his and his culture's bigotry. But in the BATTLE timeline when you
> see the Lawgiver talking to human as well as ape children you
realize
> that the Lawgiver's attitude has been changed into the opposite of
his
> original bigotry as the result of Caesar's actions and existence.
No
> doubt the (very old) Lawgiver in the altered timeline preaches
tolerance
> and coexistence among the species.
>
> Ask yourself the question, if Jesus had nearly the exact opposite
views
> he did in our history would everything still be the same as it is
now?
> Of course, we all know it would be ridiculous to suppose so. The
same
> thing applies to the POTA world.
>
> And please don't say there is more than one Lawgiver. The Lawgiver
in
> BATTLE was definitely meant to be the same ape spoken of in
PLANET. He's
> the same one that Zaius calls "The greatest ape of all", otherwise
it
> would be pointless including that last scene in BATTLE.
>
> When you watch the apes movies the first or second time and don't
pay
> close attention a circular timeline seems plausible. But when you
watch
> the movies the 5th, 10th or 25th time you notice things you may
have missed
> the 2nd time.
>
>
>
> >would always be capable of it. And I still believe there had to
be an
> >original timeline (or history) that lead to the world Taylor lands
in (in
> >3978!) that would then allow the chimps to return to the past IN
ORDER TO
> >SAVE THE WORLD! Besides, the apes being made into slaves happens
independent
> >of the chimp-o-nauts arriving in 1973 anyway, in fact have you
ever thought
> >how strange it is that Cornelius tells the government that apes
being made
> >into slaves will lead to man's overthrow, and yet the government
lets it
> >happen anyway? This is one of the many flaws in logic that makes
it kind of
> >silly to try to correct it all as one perfectly round egg. This
> >Humpty-Dumpty just don't fit together.
> >
> >
> >-- Rory
>
>
>
>

X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.8
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 13:10:37 -0800
Message-ID: <web-10491986@...>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

>
>Dehn wrote the first and finally drafts of Battle. Check Joe Russo's
>book if you want.
>And no its not the same timeline from Marvel. You're right that one
>was a joke.
>
>> Paul Dehn didn't write the last movie BATTLE, so whether he ever
>said
>> that is irrelevent.
>

Dehn's original story (described in Eric Greene's book) has almost nothing
in common with the final story. The BATTLE story was almost entirely
written by Joyce and John Corrington . Dehn's story for BATTLE didn't work
so it was essentially thrown out. To quote Greene: "Dehn's storyline
was not used".

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 7:42 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Battle Subtitles final cut

In a message dated 3/2/02 12:41:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, calima5021com@... writes:

Well, as much as it was possible to remove the subtitles, in turn the
quality of the re-capture drops. So while there will be no subtitles the
quality in picture drops to just above Video-CD quality (lower than video
tape), which in my opinion, sucks.

So subtitles will remain, and quality will remain at original laser disc
quality.

Best.
Al

I agree, Al.  Keep the quality, I'll ignore the subtitles.  If it looked like a video-CD, I wouldn't be interested.  So, I look forward to when you've got this DVD ready.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html In a message dated 3/2/02 10:27:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

OK Since Rory brought up some interesting points the other day; I thought I thought I'd answer him with this map. This is how I see all this.
Feel free to flame me now. LOL

I wish I knew how to do this same sort of thing, but I'm pretty bad with computers.  Anyway, James, I'll be kind.  I think it's pretty obvious in PLANET and BENEATH that the cave and the Statue of Liberty are on the ocean shore, not the inland sea as you have it.  Also, I can't see the ruins of Manhattan being so close to where the apes live, so even if I agreed with you that this map showed an area close to New York City, I still would place the city just off the right of the map.  In any event, I don't think Cornelius' map in PLANET works for BENEATH and that's probably why they didn't show it again in BENEATH.  I really believe that it's wrong to try and bend the events of PLANET to try and make it fit with what comes in BENEATH.  They had know idea there'd be a sequel when they made PLANET.  There simply are continuity errors that I find it's better to just ignore.  The Planet of the Apes series is very much like the Universal Frankenstein series.  You just lo
I have to say that I really feel sorry for you APES fans that have this mad fixation that all the films have to fit together as a greater saga.  It's not how these films were made and if you look at them without the childhood nostalgia it's not how they work today.  It's an illusion, "mere illusion."

Anyway, that's my opinion.  It's been fun.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
<.html

No, Heston only gets a participation in the original. And I don't think
even that any more. His percentage came from Jacobs' share. But it was
probably the best film deal Heston ever made, since the studio didn't expect
it to be a hit. - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 8:09 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Get off Chuck's back!


> Is it true, based on his original deal with Jacobs, that he gets 5%
> of the gross of any POTA film he appears in? Which would explain why
> he did the cameo in the remake.
>
> > I love the movie star Charlton Heston of the fifties and sixties,
> but after
> > the early seventies he became just a right-wing, rug-wearing
> pomposity. I
> > met him in 1978 and was less than impressed, still he made some
> great movies,
> > too bad in real life he's, as BENEATH director Ted Post says, an
> egomaniac.
> > His whole involvement with the NRA is about stroking his ego and
> keeping
> > himself in the limelight.
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Anyone know what Dehn's ideas were for Battle?

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 3 March 2002 7:19
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Lawgiver's name
>
>
> X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.8
> Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 13:10:37 -0800
> Message-ID: <web-10491986@...>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> >
> >Dehn wrote the first and finally drafts of Battle. Check Joe Russo's
> >book if you want.
> >And no its not the same timeline from Marvel. You're right that one
> >was a joke.
> >
> >> Paul Dehn didn't write the last movie BATTLE, so whether he ever
> >said
> >> that is irrelevent.
> >
>
> Dehn's original story (described in Eric Greene's book) has almost nothing
> in common with the final story. The BATTLE story was almost entirely
> written by Joyce and John Corrington . Dehn's story for BATTLE
> didn't work
> so it was essentially thrown out. To quote Greene: "Dehn's storyline
> was not used".
>
>
>

.html In a message dated 3/2/02 10:27:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

OK Since Rory brought up some interesting points the other day; I thought I thought I'd answer him with this map. This is how I see all this.
Feel free to flame me now. LOL

I wish I knew how to do this same sort of thing, but I'm pretty bad with computers.  Anyway, James, I'll be kind.  I think it's pretty obvious in PLANET and BENEATH that the cave and the Statue of Liberty are on the ocean shore, not the inland sea as you have it.  Also, I can't see the ruins of Manhattan being so close to where the apes live, so even if I agreed with you that this map showed an area close to New York City, I still would place the city just off the right of the map.  In any event, I don't think Cornelius' map in PLANET works for BENEATH and that's probably why they didn't show it again in BENEATH.  I really believe that it's wrong to try and bend the events of PLANET to try and make it fit with what comes in BENEATH.  They had know idea there'd be a sequel when they made PLANET.  There simply are continuity errors that I find it's better to just ignore.  The Planet of the Apes series is very much like the Universal Frankenstein series.  You just lo
I have to say that I really feel sorry for you APES fans that have this mad fixation that all the films have to fit together as a greater saga.  It's not how these films were made and if you look at them without the childhood nostalgia it's not how they work today.  It's an illusion, "mere illusion."

Anyway, that's my opinion.  It's been fun.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
<.html

Never mind, James. When Rory was 5, he told his parents, "There's no Santa
Claus, and here's why...".
Toodles! - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Map


> Of course you're assuming that Nova's home was close to the site of
> the hunt. Hey, One field look like another to this city boy. And the
> Apes would only put the scarecrows at one place and not have them
> dotted at various points on the border with the forbidden zone. Also,
> the line that was in the film has Cornelius saying its a long detour
> to the dead lake which wouldn't be true if they started at the area
> of the hunt. I based the route on the map on the film showing them
> following a river to the coast.
> >
> > Yes, I am. Also. . . I think you've missed, James, with all your
> viewings of
> > PLANET that when Zira and Lucius with the wagon meet Cornelius with
> the
> > horses and supplies that they are on the site of the hunt. That's
> why Taylor
> > says to the apes about Nova that "She's close to home. She knows
> it." Also,
> > the party then rides past where the scarecrows are, and there was
> some
> > dialogue cut that indicated that Taylor wanted to return to the
> spot where
> > the raft and U.S. flag was, but that Cornelius was against it.
> >
> > James, you keep at, and remember, "Never trust an APES fan over
> thirty."
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Attachments :

I have a deadline for the 25th of this month that I'm just trying to keep up
with now. ( right now I feel like FoX trying to release POTA 2001 on time)
The price, no more than $10 + shipping.

Best.
Al

>From: "Sammo Law" <sammo_of_borg@...>
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Battle Subtitles final cut
>Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 14:01:14 -0600
>

_____

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Whitty

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 2:40 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Atill the Map

Rory

 

I'm glad you were kind because it is good to see people feeling free to express an opinion and ask for input without fear of attack.  I recall not knowing who Tim Burton was and when I asked, I was shot down in flames.  Now I think you would all be happy for me if I didn't know who he was!

 

James, I can see why you put most of these things here.  The only thing that I believe is probably wrong is the Statue because I am sure there are waves crashing in the background and I don't think that could happen on an inland river.

 

But may I also so that you can explain a lot of POTA with the post-nuclear setting, so who the hell can say what will be happening in 395something when the earth has had a nuclear holocaust.  What POTA is all about is that exciting imaginative way in which it is shown that things are scarey and unfamiliar.  They didn't worry too much about topography - it was intended for people to see it once, not hundreds of times and then write books about it.

 

The map to me is just a prop and none of the "evidence" people have shown would suggest any different.  I find it very hard to believe that the creator of the map thought beyond "We need a shore line and an inland river".  I doubt it was based on anything much and I think the use of New York City and Liberty were not to give us a geography lesson, but to show familiar things that the astronauts/audience (or at least the American audience) would see and know it was earth.

 

I'm over it.

 

Michael

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Haristas@... [Haristas@...]
Sent: Sunday, 3 March 2002 2:10
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Map

In a message dated 3/2/02 10:27:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

OK Since Rory brought up some interesting points the other day; I thought I thought I'd answer him with this map. This is how I see all this.
Feel free to flame me now. LOL

I wish I knew how to do this same sort of thing, but I'm pretty bad with computers.  Anyway, James, I'll be kind.  I think it's pretty obvious in PLANET and BENEATH that the cave and the Statue of Liberty are on the ocean shore, not the inland sea as you have it.  Also, I can't see the ruins of Manhattan being so close to where the apes live, so even if I agreed with you that this map showed an area close to New York City, I still would place the city just off the right of the map.  In any event, I don't think Cornelius' map in PLANET works for BENEATH and that's probably why they didn't show it again in BENEATH.  I really believe that it's wrong to try and bend the events of PLANET to try and make it fit with what comes in BENEATH.  They had know idea there'd be a sequel when they made PLANET.  There simply are continuity errors that I find it's better to just ignore.  The Planet of the Apes series is very much like the Universal Frankenstein series.  You just lo
I have to say that I really feel sorry for you APES fans that have this mad fixation that all the films have to fit together as a greater saga.  It's not how these films were made and if you look at them without the childhood nostalgia it's not how they work today.  It's an illusion, "mere illusion."

Anyway, that's my opinion.  It's been fun.

-- Rory




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

On the video front, there's an ad in the new "Entertainment Weekly" for
the 'special edition' VHS of POTA2001. I've seen the 2 -disc DVD marked down
to $15 at Target and Tower. Not a bad
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Calima 5021" <calima5021com@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Battle Subtitles final cut


> I have a deadline for the 25th of this month that I'm just trying to keep
up
> with now. ( right now I feel like FoX trying to release POTA 2001 on time)
> The price, no more than $10 + shipping.
>
> Best.
> Al
>
>
>
> >From: "Sammo Law" <sammo_of_borg@...>
> >Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> >To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Battle Subtitles final cut
> >Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 14:01:14 -0600
> >
>
>
>
>
> _____

Dehn's outline was the basis for Battle. Many of the details were
changed by the Coringtons. Dehn was then brought back to do final
rewrite at J Lee Thompson's insistance. You should read Joe Russo's
book "Planet of the Apes Revisited", much better and more accurate
than Green's book.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.8
> Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 13:10:37 -0800
> Message-ID: <web-10491986@m...>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> >
> >Dehn wrote the first and finally drafts of Battle. Check Joe
Russo's
> >book if you want.
> >And no its not the same timeline from Marvel. You're right that one
> >was a joke.
> >
> >> Paul Dehn didn't write the last movie BATTLE, so whether he ever
> >said
> >> that is irrelevent.
> >
>
> Dehn's original story (described in Eric Greene's book) has almost
nothing
> in common with the final story. The BATTLE story was almost
entirely
> written by Joyce and John Corrington . Dehn's story for BATTLE
didn't work
> so it was essentially thrown out. To quote Greene: "Dehn's
storyline
> was not used".
>
>
>

Couldn't of said it better myself.

> The map to me is just a prop and none of the "evidence" people have

shown

> would suggest any different. I find it very hard to believe that

the

> creator of the map thought beyond "We need a shore line and an

inland

> river". I doubt it was based on anything much and I think the use

of New

> York City and Liberty were not to give us a geography lesson, but

to show

> familiar things that the astronauts/audience (or at least the

American

> audience) would see and know it was earth.

The first draft had Ceaser and the Apes still living in the city from
Conquest. Most of the world was destroyed and some mutants with a
nuclear missle threaten the city. Also, it has Aldo winning the fight
at the end. But other than details like these the plot is generally
similar to the final film.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Anyone know what Dehn's ideas were for Battle?
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Melkor [melkor@m...]
> > Sent: Sunday, 3 March 2002 7:19
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Lawgiver's name
> >
> >
> > X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.8
> > Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 13:10:37 -0800
> > Message-ID: <web-10491986@m...>
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >
> > >
> > >Dehn wrote the first and finally drafts of Battle. Check Joe
Russo's
> > >book if you want.
> > >And no its not the same timeline from Marvel. You're right that
one
> > >was a joke.
> > >
> > >> Paul Dehn didn't write the last movie BATTLE, so whether he
ever
> > >said
> > >> that is irrelevent.
> > >
> >
> > Dehn's original story (described in Eric Greene's book) has
almost nothing
> > in common with the final story. The BATTLE story was almost
entirely
> > written by Joyce and John Corrington . Dehn's story for BATTLE
> > didn't work
> > so it was essentially thrown out. To quote Greene: "Dehn's
storyline
> > was not used".
> >
> >
> >

I keep waiting for him to start arguing that the earth is flat. LOL

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Never mind, James. When Rory was 5, he told his parents, "There's
no Santa
> Claus, and here's why...".
> Toodles! - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Map
>
>
> > Of course you're assuming that Nova's home was close to the site
of
> > the hunt. Hey, One field look like another to this city boy. And
the
> > Apes would only put the scarecrows at one place and not have them
> > dotted at various points on the border with the forbidden zone.
Also,
> > the line that was in the film has Cornelius saying its a long
detour
> > to the dead lake which wouldn't be true if they started at the
area
> > of the hunt. I based the route on the map on the film showing them
> > following a river to the coast.
> > >
> > > Yes, I am. Also. . . I think you've missed, James, with all
your
> > viewings of
> > > PLANET that when Zira and Lucius with the wagon meet Cornelius
with
> > the
> > > horses and supplies that they are on the site of the hunt.
That's
> > why Taylor
> > > says to the apes about Nova that "She's close to home. She
knows
> > it." Also,
> > > the party then rides past where the scarecrows are, and there
was
> > some
> > > dialogue cut that indicated that Taylor wanted to return to the
> > spot where
> > > the raft and U.S. flag was, but that Cornelius was against it.
> > >
> > > James, you keep at, and remember, "Never trust an APES fan over
> > thirty."
> > >
> > > -- Rory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

Care to name the ones you'd like to tear apart?

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Remember too, the idea was to hide that it was Earth until the
end. So whoever drew the map had to make it look different enough but
still similar. But you could tear apart any sci-fi movie you choose
to name. It depends if you want to do that. I can watch the movie and
suspend my belief. - - - Jeff
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 11:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

. Sorry, Rory, but the Statue of Liberty can't be too far down the
coastline, since Zaius knows it's out there to be found: (ZAIUS:
"Don't look for it, Taylor... you may not like what you'll find.";
ZIRA: "What will he find out there, Doctor?" ZAIUS: "His destiny.") I
can't see Zaius (years earlier) having trekked out over a hundred
miles along the coast, away from Ape City, in order to find this
ancient artifact. But, hey, you're free to think it, if it floats your
boat.

I don't know how you get from that line in the movie that Zaius knows of The Statue of Liberty.  He simply knows that what Taylor will find is that he's been on his home world all along and that man destroyed his civilization.  In no way do I believe Dr. Zaius knows a thing about The Statue of Liberty.  Where did you get that idea?

-- Rory<.html

I agree with you on this one Rory. But maps aside, since it only
Taylor a few minutes, maybe hours to reach the statue; they have to
be close to New York. There is nothing in the way the film was cut to
indicate they were riding for the weeks it would of taken to get
there from Virginia.

> I don't know how you get from that line in the movie that Zaius

knows of The

> Statue of Liberty. He simply knows that what Taylor will find is

that he's

> been on his home world all along and that man destroyed his

civilization. In

> no way do I believe Dr. Zaius knows a thing about The Statue of

Liberty.

> Where did you get that idea?
>
> -- Rory

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 11:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

This is an important clue which bolsters my
hypothesis that Cornelius (and Zira, following his lead) purposely
misleads Hasslein about the chronology of Humanity's downfall and
Simian ascendancy, saying "centuries" where the actual "hidden/secret
scrolls" say "years", giving a false sense of security. Cornelius, I
think, is hoping that his earlier testimony ("English" language for
2000 years) would be forgotten.

Phooey to this!  If you study the performance of McDowall during that scene you can see that Cornelius is taking great delight in telling the man just how it came down.  Even Zira throws a "how's them apples, human?" expression at Hasslein.   No, Patrick, they're telling the truth as they know it.  But, you think what you want, and write what you want -- it's your novel (but remember it's Fox's property!)

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 11:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

1. I live in Fargo (now West Fargo), North Dakota, and the Red River
of the North does indeed flow northward. Rivers are made of water, and
water is subject to gravity, and gravity pulls DOWNWARD, not
SOUTHWARD, people! Just because most of our maps have NORTH on top
doesn't mean that SOUTH equals 'DOWN'!

I live in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla.  and I could see the Red River of the North flows north just looking at my atlas, but then James doesn't think I know how to read maps too well.  And, I also told James that rivers run 'downhill' and that it has nothing to do with compass directions.  So there, James!!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 11:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

The entire crust of the planet will move relative to the Core
and Mantle beneath it, "lubricated" by the magma at the "Moho
discontinuity" between the Crust and the Mantle, sending North America
southward, Australia and Antarctica northward, and the new
geographical coordinate grid will be such that the new Equator will
pass through North America, South America, Antarctica, western
Australia, eastern China... with the new North Pole occupied by the
obliterated city of Jerusalem. 

Come on, Patrick!!!  All this happens in less than two thousands years?!!!  Oh my god!!  You're novel is going to require such suspension of disbelief on the part of the reader that a frontal lobotomy from Dr. Galen himself will be prerequisite to enjoying it!!

I coming to believe Lord T was right about you, Patrick.  You need to be stopped.  Do you like role-playing games?  Well, guess what, Patrick?  I'm Dr. Hasslein -- and you're the baby chimp!!!  Watch out!  "Somebody has to begin to care!"

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 5:28 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] The Sequel to message #14952...

In a message dated 3/2/02 11:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

. Sorry, Rory, but the Statue of Liberty can't be too far down the
coastline, since Zaius knows it's out there to be found: (ZAIUS:
"Don't look for it, Taylor... you may not like what you'll find.";
ZIRA: "What will he find out there, Doctor?" ZAIUS: "His destiny.") I
can't see Zaius (years earlier) having trekked out over a hundred
miles along the coast, away from Ape City, in order to find this
ancient artifact. But, hey, you're free to think it, if it floats your
boat.

I don't know how you get from that line in the movie that Zaius knows of The Statue of Liberty.  He simply knows that what Taylor will find is that he's been on his home world all along and that man destroyed his civilization.  In no way do I believe Dr. Zaius knows a thing about The Statue of Liberty.  Where did you get that idea?

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 2:11:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

No, Rory's point about the non-circular timeline is supported completely
by the evidence in the movies.  From what I see it is just impossible
for PLANET and BENEATH to have occured in the same timeline as BATTLE.
A lot of people don't understand what is going on in BATTLE.  The entire
point of that movie is that Caesar is on a mission to save the the world
from being destroyed.  When he defeats Aldo and grants humans equality near
the end we already have a clue that things have changed drastically. 

RIGHT ON, WHOEVER YOU ARE!!!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 3:35:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

You make a very good case, but I still think it could go either way.
It's just up to personal interpretation with no right or wrong answer.

James, I think there are some ways to look at the APES films that are 'right' and 'wrong.'  If all films were to be viewed with just 'personal interpretation' as a guide to what's going on in them, why bother having plots at all?

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 4:18:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

Dehn's original story (described in Eric Greene's book) has almost nothing
in common with the final story.  The BATTLE story was almost entirely
written by Joyce and John Corrington .  Dehn's story for BATTLE didn't work  
so it was essentially thrown out.  To quote Greene: "Dehn's storyline
was not used".

Dehn did come back and write a script polish.  From what I understand nearly all the dialogue in BATTLE is Dehn's.

But the timelime is still NOT a circle!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 4:39:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

   What?! Rory and "Battle", sittin' in a tree, K-I-...

                                                           - - - Jeff



You are a menace!  A walking toodles!<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 4:40:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

The map to me is just a prop and none of the "evidence" people have shown would suggest any different.  I find it very hard to believe that the creator of the map thought beyond "We need a shore line and an inland river".  I doubt it was based on anything much and I think the use of New York City and Liberty were not to give us a geography lesson, but to show familiar things that the astronauts/audience (or at least the American audience) would see and know it was earth.

I'm over it.

Michael



Why do I now want to attack you?  Good thing you're thousands of miles away -- at least from what I can tell from my maps.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 5:01:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

Remember too, the idea was to hide that it was Earth until the end. So whoever drew the map had to make it look different enough but still similar.        - - - Jeff

That's why I say McDowall is holding it sideways in PLANET.  It's being done on purpose to hide that it's the east coast.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 5:05:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

On the video front, there's an ad in the new "Entertainment Weekly" for
the 'special edition' VHS of POTA2001. I've seen the 2 -disc DVD marked down
to $15 at Target and Tower. Not a bad
       - - - Jeff

Deal?  TOODLES, JEFFERY, TOODLES!!!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 5:16:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Dehn's outline was the basis for Battle. Many of the details were
changed by the Coringtons. Dehn was then brought back to do final
rewrite at J Lee Thompson's insistance. You should read Joe Russo's
book "Planet of the Apes Revisited", much better and more accurate
than Green's book.

James, I'm going to forward this to my old penpal from when we were kids, Joe Russo.

-- Rory<.html

To: pota@yahoogroups.com
X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.8
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:13:13 -0800
Message-ID: <web-10497799@...>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


I have both Greene and Russo's books, and they both are very clear that
Dehn's story was not used. Both of these books also describe Dehn's
story and it was not at all the story that made it to film. Dehn did want
BATTLE to have a circular timeline. But the Corrington's story was used
instead, which was all about altering the timeline and saving the Earth
from destruction.


Before the [Corringtons] began to map out their scenario, they were
given Dehn's original treatment, which they quickly discarded.
[Joe Russo p. 209]

...we just totally ignored [Dehn's script], because it was irrelevent
to what the audience wanted to see.
[Russo quoting Joyce Corrington p. 209]

...Dehn's story was not used.
[Eric Greene p115]

Russo's book later describes a couple of small changes Dehn made to
the Corrington story, and then goes on to say [p. 211] that the Writer's Guild
denied Dehn credit for both the original and final story.

The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter what Dehn wanted, because
it wasn't his story. To introduce the likelyhood of a circular timeline
Paul Dehn would have had to change the Corrington's story to make Aldo kill
Caesar, and then kill all the humans. And to even allow for the possibility
of a circular timeline Dehn would have had to rip out the entire Lawgiver
sequence or at the least take out the human children from the ending.

Another thing to realize is that Dehn wasn't consistent about wanting a
circular timeline anyway, or in ESCAPE he would have had Cornelius mention
Caesar (or Milo), instead of Aldo. And in the script for CONQUEST he would
not have included Aldo as Caesar's chief lieutenant.

One way to look at the Apes films is that Mike Wilson did the beginning
of the story (with help from Rod Serling), Paul Dehn did the middle part
of the story, and the Corringtons did the ending. Somehow the final result
was an epic masterpiece.

>Dehn's outline was the basis for Battle. Many of the details were
>changed by the Coringtons. Dehn was then brought back to do final
>rewrite at J Lee Thompson's insistance. You should read Joe Russo's
>book "Planet of the Apes Revisited", much better and more accurate
>than Green's book.
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 5:24:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

I keep waiting for him to start arguing that the earth is flat. LOL

Oh, you are the witty one, James!<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 8:38:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

I agree with you on this one Rory. But maps aside, since it only
Taylor a few minutes, maybe hours to reach the statue; they have to
be close to New York. There is nothing in the way the film was cut to
indicate they were riding for the weeks it would of taken to get
there from Virginia.

Well, I wish in PLANET there were scenes that showed all the treks taking longer.  That way the movie would be longer and I could spend more time enjoying it.  112 minutes is just too short.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 8:57:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  I know it doesn't carry much weight, but FYI there was a comic book called "Sins of the Father" where Zauis' dad shows him the Statue.             - - - Jeff

NOW LET'S NOT BRING THE COMICS INTO THIS!!!!   I'm going to show you something, Jeff -- my middle finger!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 9:19:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

One way to look at the Apes films is that Mike Wilson did the beginning
of the story (with help from Rod Serling), Paul Dehn did the middle part
of the story, and the Corringtons did the ending.  Somehow the final result
was an epic masterpiece.
       

You're forgetting the uncredited John T. Kelley.  And, "an epic masterpiece"?!!!   Not if you include that 'kiddy movie' BATTLE!

Oh, how they should have just ended it with CONQUEST!  Oh, the pain, the pain!

-- Rory<.html

OK you have a point. And since Paul Dehn the SCREENWRITER says its a
circular timeline then that must be right and all other opinions
WRONG!!!!!!

> James, I think there are some ways to look at the APES films that

are 'right'

> and 'wrong.' If all films were to be viewed with just 'personal
> interpretation' as a guide to what's going on in them, why bother

having

> plots at all?
>
> -- Rory

Look at the crdits of Conquest. Aldo was one of Ceaser's chief
lieutenants. And Dehn's story wasn't completely thrown out, the
Corrington's just did a massive rewrite.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> To: pota@y...
> X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.8
> Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 18:13:13 -0800
> Message-ID: <web-10497799@m...>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>
> I have both Greene and Russo's books, and they both are very clear
that
> Dehn's story was not used. Both of these books also describe
Dehn's
> story and it was not at all the story that made it to film. Dehn
did want
> BATTLE to have a circular timeline. But the Corrington's story was
used
> instead, which was all about altering the timeline and saving the
Earth
> from destruction.
>
>
> Before the [Corringtons] began to map out their scenario, they were
> given Dehn's original treatment, which they quickly discarded.
> [Joe Russo p. 209]
>
> ...we just totally ignored [Dehn's script], because it was
irrelevent
> to what the audience wanted to see.
> [Russo quoting Joyce Corrington p. 209]
>
> ...Dehn's story was not used.
> [Eric Greene p115]
>
> Russo's book later describes a couple of small changes Dehn made to
> the Corrington story, and then goes on to say [p. 211] that the
Writer's Guild
> denied Dehn credit for both the original and final story.
>
> The bottom line is that it really doesn't matter what Dehn wanted,
because
> it wasn't his story. To introduce the likelyhood of a circular
timeline
> Paul Dehn would have had to change the Corrington's story to make
Aldo kill
> Caesar, and then kill all the humans. And to even allow for the
possibility
> of a circular timeline Dehn would have had to rip out the entire
Lawgiver
> sequence or at the least take out the human children from the
ending.
>
> Another thing to realize is that Dehn wasn't consistent about
wanting a
> circular timeline anyway, or in ESCAPE he would have had Cornelius
mention
> Caesar (or Milo), instead of Aldo. And in the script for CONQUEST
he would
> not have included Aldo as Caesar's chief lieutenant.
>
> One way to look at the Apes films is that Mike Wilson did the
beginning
> of the story (with help from Rod Serling), Paul Dehn did the middle
part
> of the story, and the Corringtons did the ending. Somehow the
final result
> was an epic masterpiece.
>
>
>
> >Dehn's outline was the basis for Battle. Many of the details were
> >changed by the Coringtons. Dehn was then brought back to do final
> >rewrite at J Lee Thompson's insistance. You should read Joe Russo's
> >book "Planet of the Apes Revisited", much better and more accurate
> >than Green's book.
> >
> >
>

Yes but in the openning trek of the astronauts they show sunsets and
different times of day to let you know this is taking a long time.
Nothing like that is done at the ending. Hence a very short ride not
a long one to the Statue.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/2/02 8:38:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > I agree with you on this one Rory. But maps aside, since it only
> > Taylor a few minutes, maybe hours to reach the statue; they have
to
> > be close to New York. There is nothing in the way the film was
cut to
> > indicate they were riding for the weeks it would of taken to get
> > there from Virginia.
> >
> >
>
> Well, I wish in PLANET there were scenes that showed all the treks
taking
> longer. That way the movie would be longer and I could spend more
time
> enjoying it. 112 minutes is just too short.
>
> -- Rory

.htmlIn a message dated 3/2/02 9:33:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

OK you have a point. And since Paul Dehn the SCREENWRITER says its a
circular timeline then that must be right and all other opinions
WRONG!!!!!!

Since Dehn is dead, I'm not sure we can be sure of what he was trying to do anymore.  I think he wanted to try to create a circular timeline, but he failed.  He just didn't get it done, James!  It's not there in the final product!  Look at it with grown-up eyes!

Now, this is it for me tonight, gang.  It's been loads of fun.  I love fighting with James, God how I love it so, but I just rented the DVD of "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" and now I'm going to smoke some of the herb and go watch it.

Toodles everybody!  See you tomorrow!  Kiss, kiss goodnight, James!

-- Rory<.html

Why can't you just accept that some people have different perspective
and see things differently than you. This additude of 'my way and no
other' just childish. I think you're the one that needs to look at
things with grown-up eyes.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/2/02 9:33:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > OK you have a point. And since Paul Dehn the SCREENWRITER says
its a
> > circular timeline then that must be right and all other opinions
> > WRONG!!!!!!
> >
> >
>
> Since Dehn is dead, I'm not sure we can be sure of what he was
trying to do
> anymore. I think he wanted to try to create a circular timeline,
but he
> failed. He just didn't get it done, James! It's not there in the
final
> product! Look at it with grown-up eyes!
>
> Now, this is it for me tonight, gang. It's been loads of fun. I
love
> fighting with James, God how I love it so, but I just rented the
DVD of "Jay
> and Silent Bob Strike Back" and now I'm going to smoke some of the
herb and
> go watch it.
>
> Toodles everybody! See you tomorrow! Kiss, kiss goodnight, James!
>
> -- Rory

Estuarys and brooks can run north to south and some are so large they
are thought of as rivers, but the only river in the northern
hemisphere that runs south to north is the Nile in Egypt.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/2/02 11:49:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > 1. I live in Fargo (now West Fargo), North Dakota, and the Red
River
> > of the North does indeed flow northward. Rivers are made of
water, and
> > water is subject to gravity, and gravity pulls DOWNWARD, not
> > SOUTHWARD, people! Just because most of our maps have NORTH on
top
> > doesn't mean that SOUTH equals 'DOWN'!
> >
> >
>
> I live in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla. and I could see the Red River of
the North
> flows north just looking at my atlas, but then James doesn't think
I know how
> to read maps too well. And, I also told James that rivers
run 'downhill' and
> that it has nothing to do with compass directions. So there,
James!!
>
> -- Rory

In a message dated 3/1/02 5:17:41 PM Central Standard Time, Haristas@...
writes:

<< Hey, I love making fun of Chuck too, but I think in PLANET he was dead on
perfect.

-- Rory >>

Very.

I mean, come on. He was stuck on a planet of Apes! If you were being poked
and prodded in a cage, you'd be a little shifty too.

-Joe

.html <.html

James,

You just can't take Rory too seriously.

Or yourself. Or me.

But I guess you can if you choose to.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 3 March 2002 13:22
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
>
>
> Why can't you just accept that some people have different perspective
> and see things differently than you. This additude of 'my way and no
> other' just childish. I think you're the one that needs to look at
> things with grown-up eyes.
>
> --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 3/2/02 9:33:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > JamesA1102@a... writes:
> >
> >
> > > OK you have a point. And since Paul Dehn the SCREENWRITER says
> its a
> > > circular timeline then that must be right and all other opinions
> > > WRONG!!!!!!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Since Dehn is dead, I'm not sure we can be sure of what he was
> trying to do
> > anymore. I think he wanted to try to create a circular timeline,
> but he
> > failed. He just didn't get it done, James! It's not there in the
> final
> > product! Look at it with grown-up eyes!
> >
> > Now, this is it for me tonight, gang. It's been loads of fun. I
> love
> > fighting with James, God how I love it so, but I just rented the
> DVD of "Jay
> > and Silent Bob Strike Back" and now I'm going to smoke some of the
> herb and
> > go watch it.
> >
> > Toodles everybody! See you tomorrow! Kiss, kiss goodnight, James!
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well I just spent several months in the hospital because some people
in this world are intolerant of the ideas of others. So forgive me if
I have a problem with anyone taking the additude 'My way is the right
and only way'.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> James,
>
> You just can't take Rory too seriously.
>
> Or yourself. Or me.
>
> But I guess you can if you choose to.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Sunday, 3 March 2002 13:22
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
> >
> >
> > Why can't you just accept that some people have different
perspective
> > and see things differently than you. This additude of 'my way and
no
> > other' just childish. I think you're the one that needs to look at
> > things with grown-up eyes.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 3/2/02 9:33:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > JamesA1102@a... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > OK you have a point. And since Paul Dehn the SCREENWRITER says
> > its a
> > > > circular timeline then that must be right and all other
opinions
> > > > WRONG!!!!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Since Dehn is dead, I'm not sure we can be sure of what he was
> > trying to do
> > > anymore. I think he wanted to try to create a circular
timeline,
> > but he
> > > failed. He just didn't get it done, James! It's not there in
the
> > final
> > > product! Look at it with grown-up eyes!
> > >
> > > Now, this is it for me tonight, gang. It's been loads of fun.
I
> > love
> > > fighting with James, God how I love it so, but I just rented the
> > DVD of "Jay
> > > and Silent Bob Strike Back" and now I'm going to smoke some of
the
> > herb and
> > > go watch it.
> > >
> > > Toodles everybody! See you tomorrow! Kiss, kiss goodnight,
James!
> > >
> > > -- Rory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

Well, it seems to me you never saw the original filmed version of Battle.
Because the original filmed version shows us just the opposite.
And as for the title, Battle for the Planet of the Apes, it seems to me that
it was tilted that because of it's tie in with Beneath 2000 years later.
Same mutants, same bomb, same battle.

Battle for the Planet of the Apes is where it all begins.

Best.
Al

P.S. Sorry about that, Rory. :o)

>From: Haristas@...
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Original vs. Altered Timeline
>Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 20:55:47 EST
>
>In a message dated 3/2/02 2:11:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>melkor@... writes:
>
>
> > No, Rory's point about the non-circular timeline is supported completely
> > by the evidence in the movies. From what I see it is just impossible
> > for PLANET and BENEATH to have occured in the same timeline as BATTLE.
> > A lot of people don't understand what is going on in BATTLE. The entire
> > point of that movie is that Caesar is on a mission to save the the world
> > from being destroyed. When he defeats Aldo and grants humans equality
>near
> > the end we already have a clue that things have changed drastically.
> >
>
>RIGHT ON, WHOEVER YOU ARE!!!
>
>-- Rory

_____

Here's a sneak peek of what will be on the Battle for the Planet of the Apes
DVD. A music video: KRYPTONITE

www.calima5021.com/kryptonite.mpg

The file is 40 megs and in VCD excellent quality.
If you have the software to create a VCD to play on your DVD player, your
more than welcome to download and burn for your entertainment.

Otherwise it will be on the DVD in DVD format.

Best and enjoy.
Al.

P.S. Brian, once I get your apemania videos, I'm also planning to making you
guys a music video as well. An Apemania Tribute on DVD. Not a bad idea.




_____