--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Exactly Rory
>
> Although I admit none of us knows the precise answer.
>
> Could be either way.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haristas@a... [Haristas@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2002 22:53
> To: pota@y...
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] The Sequel to message #14952...
>
>
> In a message dated 3/6/02 11:01:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
>
> Rory, you're the one who seems to favor a PLANET-only outlook
> (dismissing BENEATH as a "mess" and so on)... so you tell me:
what
> ELSE could Zaius' line ("... you may not like what you'll
find...") be
> referring to?
>
>
>
> Well. . . . the fact that in the apes' pre-history the area that
would
> become know as the Forbidden Zone was highly radioactive and
therefore
> literally deadly might have A LOT to do with why it would be
declared
> Forbidden. It isn't necessary to believe something silly like that
apes
> know of The Statue of Liberty, and as far as Zaius' line, "You may
not like
> what you find," well that simply implies that he knows Taylor will
PROBABLY
> find evidence of his destroyed civilization, NOT that he literally
knows
> exactly what Taylor will see.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--- In pota@y..., "ThyPentacle" <agnosticdragon@y...> wrote:
> >>How many women really get into Sci-Fi??????????
>
> lol Well, more than you think. My aunt and my stepmother are heavy
into sci-fi shows, and they're both over 40. I dunno, it does seem
odd to me that someone that old, and female to boot, would like the
same things I do. They are sort of clandestine about it though. :o)
>
>
> ThyPentacle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eileen Rankin
> To: pota@y...
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:59 AM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
>
>
> I know... I have a box full of the comics... they were a favorite
of mine long before I got into POTA! As a comic, it would be
interesting... but I don't think it would go over too well as a movie.
>
> Eileen
>
> PS... Does that make me odd? How many women really get into Sci-
Fi??????????
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: veetus@e...
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:46 AM
> To: pota@y...
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
>
> Don't give them any ideas! POTA is still property of "Dark
Horse", king of
> the crossovers ("Aliens vs. Predator").
> - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "emr1623" <emr1623@m...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
>
>
> > I think they should get Scott in on it and let him bring his
aliens
> > (Giger's aliens, actually) and then we can see who Rules the
> > Planet... LOL
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "sand_hill_school" <sand_hill_school@y...>
wrote:
> > > I don't see how they'll fix the mess they made, but...
> > >
> > > Bruce Willis is good with guns. He should be a gorilla.
Ridley
> > > Scott would certainly bring in some women. A female
gorilla?
> > (YES!)
> > > Maybe Demi Moore?
> > >
> > > --Helen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > What took Willis so long? I swore off "Die Hard" a long
time
> > ago.
> > > Scott said he'd only do "Alien 5" if the script is right. A
man
> > after
> > > my own heart. He should do "Apes 2" (he's signed with
> > Fox). -
> > > - - Jeff
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Haristas@a...
> > > > To: pota@y...
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 11:10 AM
> > > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well, don't get too excited. It's just that there are
two
> > > stories on Cinescape.com today that Bruce Willis swears off
any
> > more
> > > DIE HARDs, and Ridley Scott has passed on ALIEN 5, so maybe
Fox
> > will
> > > HAVE to do an APES II now -- if that's anything to look
forward to.
> > > >
> > > > -- Rory
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> > > Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 6:25 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes

In a message dated 3/7/02 6:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, agnosticdragon@... writes:

>>How many women really get into Sci-Fi??????????

lol Well, more than you think. My aunt and my stepmother are heavy into sci-fi shows, and they're both over 40. I dunno, it does seem odd to me that someone that old, and female to boot, would like the same things I do. They are sort of clandestine about it though. :o)


ThyPentacle

What do you mean "that old"?   How much over 40 is "old" to you?  I'm going to be 43 soon, but I don't feel "that old."  Anyway, there's lots of woman into SF -- just not enough hot ones that want our Sci-Fi geeks bodies!

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

--- In pota@y..., "sand_hill_school" <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:
> OUCH!
>
> Has anyone here done a poll of ages represented in the group?
>
> --Helen
>
> --- In pota@y..., "ThyPentacle" <agnosticdragon@y...> wrote:
> > >>How many women really get into Sci-Fi??????????
> >
> > lol Well, more than you think. My aunt and my stepmother are
heavy
> into sci-fi shows, and they're both over 40. I dunno, it does seem
> odd to me that someone that old, and female to boot, would like the
> same things I do. They are sort of clandestine about it though. :o)
> >
> >
> > ThyPentacle
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Eileen Rankin
> > To: pota@y...
> > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:59 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
> >
> >
> > I know... I have a box full of the comics... they were a
favorite
> of mine long before I got into POTA! As a comic, it would be
> interesting... but I don't think it would go over too well as a
movie.
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> > PS... Does that make me odd? How many women really get into
Sci-
> Fi??????????
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: veetus@e...
> > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:46 AM
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
> >
> > Don't give them any ideas! POTA is still property of "Dark
> Horse", king of
> > the crossovers ("Aliens vs. Predator").
> > - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "emr1623" <emr1623@m...>
> > To: <pota@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:13 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
> >
> >
> > > I think they should get Scott in on it and let him bring
his
> aliens
> > > (Giger's aliens, actually) and then we can see who Rules the
> > > Planet... LOL
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., "sand_hill_school"
<sand_hill_school@y...>
> wrote:
> > > > I don't see how they'll fix the mess they made, but...
> > > >
> > > > Bruce Willis is good with guns. He should be a gorilla.
> Ridley
> > > > Scott would certainly bring in some women. A female
> gorilla?
> > > (YES!)
> > > > Maybe Demi Moore?
> > > >
> > > > --Helen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > > What took Willis so long? I swore off "Die Hard" a
long
> time
> > > ago.
> > > > Scott said he'd only do "Alien 5" if the script is right.
A
> man
> > > after
> > > > my own heart. He should do "Apes 2" (he's signed with
> > > Fox). -
> > > > - - Jeff
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Haristas@a...
> > > > > To: pota@y...
> > > > > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 11:10 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, don't get too excited. It's just that there
are
> two
> > > > stories on Cinescape.com today that Bruce Willis swears
off
> any
> > > more
> > > > DIE HARDs, and Ridley Scott has passed on ALIEN 5, so
maybe
> Fox
> > > will
> > > > HAVE to do an APES II now -- if that's anything to look
> forward to.
> > > > >
> > > > > -- Rory
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of
> > > > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.

>From: LordTZer0@...
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: POTA Music Video 2
>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 19:39:28 EST
>
>
> > A VCD is the same as a Audio CD, instead of you making an audio CD with
>a
> > regular CD, you make a "Video CD" that can be played on a DVD player.
>
>Hey Al,
>
>So, can my computer's CD burner make a copy a VCD, or would I need
>different
>software to do that?

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 5:29 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline


> Actually, FOX removed the scenes to shorten the film so theaters
> could fit in an extra showing a day.
>
> --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 3/6/02 10:56:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
> >
> >
> > > There is NO indication that that bomb is rendered
> > > incapable of doing what it was designed to do--destroy the entire
> > > planet, and THAT makes the circular timeline particularly
> compelling
> > > to me.
> > > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > > EARTH-TIME 3-06-2002
> >
> > You're just a damn nihilist, Patrick Michael Tilton! Now, let me
> ask you a
> > question: Why do you think Arthur P. Jacobs had those scenes with
> the bomb
> > removed from BATTLE?
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Eileen Rankin

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 7:59 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes

I know... I have a box full of the comics... they were a favorite of mine long before I got into POTA!  As a comic, it would be interesting... but I don't think it would go over too well as a movie.

 

Eileen  

 

PS...  Does that make me odd?  How many women really get into Sci-Fi?????????? 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:46 AM

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes

 

  Don't give them any ideas! POTA is still property of "Dark Horse", king of
the crossovers ("Aliens vs. Predator").
        - - - Jeff


----- Original Message -----
From: "emr1623" <emr1623@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes


> I think they should get Scott in on it and let him bring his aliens
> (Giger's aliens, actually) and then we can see who Rules the
> Planet... LOL
>
> Eileen
>
>
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "sand_hill_school" <sand_hill_school@y...> wrote:
> > I don't see how they'll fix the mess they made, but...
> >
> > Bruce Willis is good with guns.  He should be a gorilla.  Ridley
> > Scott would certainly bring in some women.  A female gorilla?
> (YES!)
> > Maybe Demi Moore?
> >
> > --Helen
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > >   What took Willis so long? I swore off "Die Hard" a long time
> ago.
> > Scott said he'd only do "Alien 5" if the script is right. A man
> after
> > my own heart. He should do "Apes 2" (he's signed with
> Fox).          -
> >  - - Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > >   From: Haristas@a...
> > >   To: pota@y...
> > >   Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 11:10 AM
> > >   Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes
> > >
> > >
> > >   Well, don't get too excited.  It's just that there are two
> > stories on Cinescape.com today that Bruce Willis swears off any
> more
> > DIE HARDs, and Ridley Scott has passed on ALIEN 5, so maybe Fox
> will
> > HAVE to do an APES II now -- if that's anything to look forward to.
> > >
> > >   -- Rory
> > >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >              
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:10 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline


> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>
> X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4.8
> Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 09:58:17 -0800
> Message-ID: <web-10566857@...>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> >
> >I'm afraid I can't agree with a number of things here, but most
>
> Thanks for bringing up all these issues.
>
>
> >especially the notion that the Lawgiver in BATTLE is meant to be the
> >same one that Zaius mentions in PLANET. Chronologically, they CAN'T be
> >the same "Lawgiver". Taylor asks Zaius, "When were those Sacred
> >Scrolls of yours written?" Zaius replies, "Twelve hundred years ago."
> >Let's take him at his word: IF the Lawgiver wrote the Sacred Scrolls
> >1,200 years before 3978 or 3955 (feel free to pick either year), then
> >the SS were written sometime around 2755-to-2778, and yet the Lawgiver
> >scene in BATTLE takes place--as the opening shot shows--in "North
> >America, 2670 A.D.", which is 85-to-108 years EARLIER. In fact, the
>
> In BATTLE we didn't see any evidence of the "period of primitive
barbarism"
> that Cornelius in PLANET said occured before the Sacred Scrolls were
> written. What we saw in the altered timeline, instead, were signs of an
> integrated liberal civilization still surviving and still honoring Caesar
> nearly 700 years after he granted equality to the humans. Having all that
> suddenly fall apart in the last few decades before the scrolls conflicts
> with the centuries of primitive barbarism in the original timeline.
>
> We have plenty of evidence that ALL of the dates from the original
timeline
> are approximate at best. They are simply too untrustworthy to put precise
> dates on things. Remember that Cornelius in ESCAPE says according to the
> Secret Scrolls that the original ape revolt takes centuries, even though
> BENEATH show ruins from the 20th century. What this tells us is that the
> apes were guessing about the time scales, like scholars guessing when the
> Iliad was written. Neither Zaius nor Cornelius had precise dates. It
> is very unlikely that the scrolls were written exactly 1200 years before
> Zaius spoke, that number is too round. Also, we had two different space
> ships give 2 different years that were decades apart. Maybe a 3rd ship
> would give a third year? Perhaps a computer on the ships guessed the year
> by comparing positions of stars at different intervals, since they had
> an unknown margin of error. Obviously the technology had never been
tested
> before. The only year we really know is the Lawgiver scene in BATTLE.
>
>
> "... and your methods of dating are crude to say the least."
> -Dr. Zaius
>
> The bottom line is that we don't know exact dates for ANYTHING in the
> original timeline, and that includes the date for the Zaius/Urses era,
> when the sacred scrolls were written, or when the revolution occurred.
> But we do have evidence showing that (1) the apes knowledge of the past
was
> not always accurate regarding time scales, and (2) the space ships were
not
> always accurate either.
>
>
> >"circularity" of the APES saga is suggested by the 2670-date, since
> >the first film opens up on the EARTH-TIME date 2673. At just about the
> >same (Earth) time that Taylor says, "You who are reading me now are a
> >different breed... I hope a better one" and asks "Does Man--that
> >marvel of the universe, that glorious paradox who sent me to the
> >stars--still make war against his brother?..." there is a talking
> >orangutan called "Lawgiver" preaching to a mixed-race/species group.
> >But some 85 years later or so, the human-hating Sacred Scrolls will be
> >written, by a different "Lawgiver", since the John Huston-portrayed
> >character (being an old person) will have long since died by that time
> >(i.e. 2755-ish).
>
> We know for certain there is only one Lawgiver. Because Dr. Zaius says
> "the greatest ape of all, our Lawgiver". He doesn't say "one of our
> lawgivers". In my view creating other apes called "Lawgiver" and
> putting them into the timeline is stretching things way beyond what the
> writers intended, kind of like saying Spock was gay in Star Trek. The
> Lawgiver in BATTLE was definitely intended to be the same ape as the one
> mentioned in the first movie. Otherwise putting that scene into the
> script would simply be pointless.
>
> Another crucial thing to realize is that the Lawgiver scene is not the
only
> major evidence we have that the timeline was altered. In ESCAPE Cornelius
> identifies Aldo -- instead of Caesar -- as the leader of the ape
revolution.
> That's because Caesar wasn't in the original timeline because his parents
> hadn't been born yet. We know that Aldo wanted to kill all of the humans,
> instead of making them equals like Caesar did. In the version of the
BATTLE
> script used in the Marvel adaptation, Caesar at first wonders what he
needs
> to do to alter the future. Then he suddenly understands what he needs to
do
> when he hears Cornelius mention Aldo's name.
>
>
>
> >Far from removing "any and all doubt", the BATTLE Lawgiver-scene only
> >further serves to point out the circularity of the APES saga. The
> >ending seems "edenic", but the last images we see are of CONFLICT (the
> >black human girl and the young chimp fighting) and of SORROW (the
>
> It looks like kids playing with each other to me. I don't doubt at all
> that individual prejudice continues to exist in the altered timeline. But
> whether the culture discourages or encourages prejudice makes all the
> difference in the world in the amount of individual prejudice. That is
why
> Palestine/Israel has a tad bit more religious violence than the USA does.
> In the original POTA timeline bigotry was not only tolerated, it was
> ingrained into the culture and solidified into religious dogma because of
> the Lawgiver's Sacred Scrolls. Again, the difference between a culture
> that discourages and encourages prejudice is the difference between
> Palestine/Israel and the USA. Individual prejudices cannot be eliminated
> entirely, but it is a culture's attitude towards it that is crucial.
>
> >statue of Caesar shedding a tear). Yes, Caesar wants/wanted to change
>
> Maybe that is a tear of joy. Personally, it sounds like a mutant illusion
> to me. We know that the mutants can (1) cause statues to have tears, and
> (2) "see" things over great distances. Maybe Caesar affected the mutant
> culture also. Paul Dehn tacked on that scene to the Corrington's BATTLE
> script. But since Dehn didn't remove the Lawgiver scene, the tear ends up
> reinforcing the non-circular timeline by hinting that Caesar may have
slowly
> affected the mutant culture too.
>
>
> >the future, defeating Aldo and freeing the humans; but does he
> >actually succeed in changing the "prophesied" future his parents
> >witnessed? Don't forget--the Mendez community has the Alpha Omega bomb
> >(in the "expanded" version of BATTLE), and the seeds of bomb-worship
> >are sown when Mendez convinces Alma to NOT detonate it, but rather to
> >revere it for making them what they are. If the "message" of BATTLE is
>
> Good point. I'm glad you brought this up because I agree it could be
> confusing. What we know is that all the events of BENEATH (and PLANET)
were
> erased completely, and so the world was saved from that apocalypse. Of
> course it is also true that the bomb was never destroyed, and there aren't
> any iron clad guarantees after BATTLE that the world will never be
destroyed
> (which left a small sequel possibility).
>
> "And then God sent the world a Saviour...."
> The Lawgiver (BATTLE)
>
> The BATTLE script was about Caesar's mission to alter the future and save
> the world. The Alpha Omega bomb scenes seen in the extended version
served
> a purpose in the Corrington's script, which was to constantly remind us
> exactly how high the stakes were in Caesar's goal to alter the future.
>
>
> >that the apocalyptic future CAN be changed, then the BEST way to
> >accomplish this would be for Mendez to DISMANTLE the Alpha Omega bomb,
> >so that it--the actual device which CAUSES the Earth to be destroyed--
> >cannot fulfill its destiny, its only purpose. Yet the script for
> >BATTLE comes full circle, setting up the Mutant community so that its
> >future development (i.e. what we see of it in BENEATH) follows as a
> >matter of course.
> >I'm sorry, but the "racial apocalypse" (as Eric Greene termed it in
> >his book) seen in BENEATH will always loom over the heads of the
> >inhabitants of the planet of the apes throughout its 20-century
> >timeline, as long as the "doomsday bomb" is still around and capable
> >of being triggered. There is NO indication that that bomb is rendered
> >incapable of doing what it was designed to do--destroy the entire
> >planet, and THAT makes the circular timeline particularly compelling
> >to me.
>
> No, it would have been illogical to have Mendez dismantle the Alpha Omega
> bomb in the altered timeline. Why? Because he didn't do so in the
original
> timeline. There is not a conflict between the extended BATTLE and the
> altered timeline. Remember that Caesar's effect on history was mainly on
> the ape city culture, and not the mutant culture. Caesar didn't need to
> affect the mutant culture in order to erase the Earth's destruction in
> BENEATH, because the mutant culture were already pacifists in the original
> timeline. It was the ape culture that launched the attack. The cause of
the
> war was the bigotry in the ape culture, and bigotry was ingrained into
> the ape culture because of the Sacred Scrolls. There was (1) no need
> for Mendez to destroy the bomb in BATTLE to stop the apocylapse in
BENEATH,
> nor (2) any logical reason that Caesar would cause Mendez to destroy it.
> Caesar never even met Mendez at any point in the movie.
>
>
> -Tom
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> LOL Didn't mean to word it like that. Sorry if anyone over 40 was
offended by
> that. I'm only 26 and don't know any better. :o)
>
> That's cool. You'll be 40 someday.
> Or, you won't.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 6:36 PM

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Fox needs Apes

 

In a message dated 3/7/02 6:21:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, agnosticdragon@... writes:

>>How many women really get into Sci-Fi??????????

lol Well, more than you think. My aunt and my stepmother are heavy into sci-fi shows, and they're both over 40. I dunno, it does seem odd to me that someone that old, and female to boot, would like the same things I do. They are sort of clandestine about it though. :o)


ThyPentacle

What do you mean "that old"?   How much over 40 is "old" to you?  I'm going to be 43 soon, but I don't feel "that old."  Anyway, there's lots of woman into SF -- just not enough hot ones that want our Sci-Fi geeks bodies!

-- Rory

----- Original Message -----
From: "Calima 5021" <calima5021com@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:44 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] EPIC MUSIC VIDEO!


>
> Okay Guys and Gals.
> Here's my first attempt at a Planet of the Apes Epic Music Video.
> RULE THE PLANET
>
> www.calima5021.com/rule.mpg
>
> A tribute to Arthur P. Jacobs, this is simply a rough cut trailer of what
is
> to come. Again it's a biggy 20 megs.
> This Epic will be based on Conquest of the Planet of the Apes. Rule the
> Planet, Arthur P. Jacobs Style. :o)
>
> Best and Enjoy.
> Al
>
>
>
> _____

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> I thought I heard Jacobs had those removed because he wanted a happier
> movie. The bomb stuff turned it into a downer. They were planning another
> sequel then at some point during "Battle" they decided to end it. Maybe it
> being the wrap-up they decided to go out positively. - - - Jeff
>

>From: <veetus@...>
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] EPIC MUSIC VIDEO!
>Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:29:25 -0800
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> There's a lot of women into sci-fi, of all ages. Maybe as many as
men. Check out the movies "Free Enterprise" and "Trekkies" on that
topic. - - Jeff

>From: Haristas@...
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: POTA Music Video 2
>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:58:47 EST
>
>In a message dated 3/7/02 11:15:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>calima5021com@... writes:
>
>
> > And for anyone wondering, I'm 35 myself going on 36 in 6/29.
> > Or make that 29th scroll 6 verse. :o)
> >
> > Best.
> > Al
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>Hey, we're both Cancers, Al. June 22nd for me.
>
>-- Rory

> -----Original Message-----
> From: JamesA1102@... [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Friday, 8 March 2002 23:23
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
>
>
> True they did want a more upbeat film but the final cut submitted
> by Jacob and Thompson included those scenes. One of the lobby
> cards is of that scene and there's even article in the
> promotional Herald about it. A friend of mine worked at FOX in
> the 80s. The story is the film was trimed at the last minute to
> fit in extra showing.
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > I thought I heard Jacobs had those removed because he wanted a happier
> > movie. The bomb stuff turned it into a downer. They were
> planning another
> > sequel then at some point during "Battle" they decided to end
> it. Maybe it
> > being the wrap-up they decided to go out positively.
> - - - Jeff
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Well sorry James but that does not make a lot of sense to me, but
only time
> will tell.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: JamesA1102@a... [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Friday, 8 March 2002 23:23
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
> >
> >
> > True they did want a more upbeat film but the final cut submitted
> > by Jacob and Thompson included those scenes. One of the lobby
> > cards is of that scene and there's even article in the
> > promotional Herald about it. A friend of mine worked at FOX in
> > the 80s. The story is the film was trimed at the last minute to
> > fit in extra showing.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > I thought I heard Jacobs had those removed because he wanted
a happier
> > > movie. The bomb stuff turned it into a downer. They were
> > planning another
> > > sequel then at some point during "Battle" they decided to end
> > it. Maybe it
> > > being the wrap-up they decided to go out positively.
> > - - - Jeff
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> James' story that the scenes with the bomb (and others) were cut
from BATTLE
> in order to fit in more playing times doesn't seem right to me.
They added
> the flashback sequence to the beginning of the film because Fox
thought the
> movie was too short! Why didn't Fox just cut that off if they then
wanted
> the film shorter. No, I think there's more to it. I just looked
in Russo's
> book for an answer, but can't find it. I'll have to ask him about
it the
> next time I talk to him, but this is still a matter very much up in
the air.
> I've read for years that Jacobs wanted a more upbeat film and that
was why
> the bomb scenes were removed -- that and the fact that there were
sound
> problems when they filmed it. If you listen to the dialogue in
those bomb
> scenes you can hear jet planes taking off at the nearby airport.
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/8/02 5:36:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > I guess you're not familiar with the ecnomics of the film industry
>
> If the only source for your story about BATTLE is "some guy you
once knew who
> worked at Fox in the 80's," then I think we should all take
whatever you say
> with a grain of salt. It's simply the mature thing to do.
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> I think they cut the scenes because they knew the Statue of Liberty
was out
> there.
>
> I know this because Jacobs also produced "Dolittle".
>
> So argue with that!
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Haristas@a... [Haristas@a...]
> Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 5:25
> To: pota@y...
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Battle enigma
>
>
> James' story that the scenes with the bomb (and others) were cut
from BATTLE
> in order to fit in more playing times doesn't seem right to me.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:25 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Battle enigma

James' story that the scenes with the bomb (and others) were cut from BATTLE in order to fit in more playing times doesn't seem right to me.  They added the flashback sequence to the beginning of the film because Fox thought the movie was too short!  Why didn't Fox just cut that off if they then wanted the film shorter.  No, I think there's more to it.  I just looked in Russo's book for an answer, but can't find it.  I'll have to ask him about it the next time I talk to him, but this is still a matter very much up in the air.  I've read for years that Jacobs wanted a more upbeat film and that was why the bomb scenes were removed -- that and the fact that there were sound problems when they filmed it.  If you listen to the dialogue in those bomb scenes you can hear jet planes taking off at the nearby airport.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:02 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] The Time Machine

Well, I'm hearing good things and bad things about this new "Time Machine" movie -- mostly bad, but Joel Siegel and Cinescape say there are things in it that'll remind you of PLANET OF THE APES, so I'll be going to see it tomorrow.  PLANET has always kind of reminded me of the 1960 "Time Machine."

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:34 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.


> I guess you're not familiar with the ecnomics of the film industry.
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Well sorry James but that does not make a lot of sense to me, but
> only time
> > will tell.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: JamesA1102@a... [JamesA1102@a...]
> > > Sent: Friday, 8 March 2002 23:23
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
> > >
> > >
> > > True they did want a more upbeat film but the final cut submitted
> > > by Jacob and Thompson included those scenes. One of the lobby
> > > cards is of that scene and there's even article in the
> > > promotional Herald about it. A friend of mine worked at FOX in
> > > the 80s. The story is the film was trimed at the last minute to
> > > fit in extra showing.
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > I thought I heard Jacobs had those removed because he wanted
> a happier
> > > > movie. The bomb stuff turned it into a downer. They were
> > > planning another
> > > > sequel then at some point during "Battle" they decided to end
> > > it. Maybe it
> > > > being the wrap-up they decided to go out positively.
> > > - - - Jeff
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> I don't think those scenes were shown even in Japan. What I
heard was they put them back in for network TV because they had to
fill out the time slot. That version was then put on the Japanese
laser disc. I've seen it, the added scenes aren't up to the quality
of the rest of the movie. Maybe Fox didn't want to restore that stuff
and just decided to put out the old version on
DVD. - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haristas@a...
> To: pota@y...
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:25 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Battle enigma
>
>
> James' story that the scenes with the bomb (and others) were cut
from BATTLE in order to fit in more playing times doesn't seem right
to me. They added the flashback sequence to the beginning of the
film because Fox thought the movie was too short! Why didn't Fox
just cut that off if they then wanted the film shorter. No, I think
there's more to it. I just looked in Russo's book for an answer, but
can't find it. I'll have to ask him about it the next time I talk to
him, but this is still a matter very much up in the air. I've read
for years that Jacobs wanted a more upbeat film and that was why the
bomb scenes were removed -- that and the fact that there were sound
problems when they filmed it. If you listen to the dialogue in those
bomb scenes you can hear jet planes taking off at the nearby airport.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> "Battle" is only 85 minutes, with the new stuff 95 min., about
the length
> of the other sequels. It's not "JFK" length. Cutting off ten
minutes isn't
> going to make an extra showing a day. - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:34 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.
>
>
> > I guess you're not familiar with the ecnomics of the film
industry.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > Well sorry James but that does not make a lot of sense to me,
but
> > only time
> > > will tell.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: JamesA1102@a... [JamesA1102@a...]
> > > > Sent: Friday, 8 March 2002 23:23
> > > > To: pota@y...
> > > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered
Timeline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > True they did want a more upbeat film but the final cut
submitted
> > > > by Jacob and Thompson included those scenes. One of the lobby
> > > > cards is of that scene and there's even article in the
> > > > promotional Herald about it. A friend of mine worked at FOX in
> > > > the 80s. The story is the film was trimed at the last minute
to
> > > > fit in extra showing.
> > > >
> > > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > > I thought I heard Jacobs had those removed because he
wanted
> > a happier
> > > > > movie. The bomb stuff turned it into a downer. They were
> > > > planning another
> > > > > sequel then at some point during "Battle" they decided to
end
> > > > it. Maybe it
> > > > > being the wrap-up they decided to go out positively.
> > > > - - - Jeff
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/8/02 8:04:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> veetus@e... writes:
>
>
> > . Maybe Fox didn't want to restore that stuff and just decided to
put out
> > the old version on DVD. - -
Jeff
> >
> >
>
> No, Toodles. . . . Remember this is Fox, the Fox of today, we're
talking
> about here: They didn't put those scenes in so they could do so
later in the
> Extra Special 5 Star Collector's Premium Platinum Ultra Edition of
the Epic
> Classic Saga "ESCAPE From BENEATH the BATTLE for the CONQUEST of
the PLANET
> OF THE APES."
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/8/02 8:54:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > I don't know about the DVD but my friend was at FOX when the VHS
was
> > put out for the first time. And you've surmised exactly what
happened
> > then.
> >
> >
>
> If you're talking about the August 1998 THX 30th Anniversary VHS
Edittions,
> yeah I'm sure you're right, they spent a lot on restoring film
elements on
> all of them, and remixing the sound for stereo, so they probably
weren't
> willing to spend more. What we got on DVD in August of 2000 was
simply these
> same tranfers, and non-anamorphic. When Fox gets around to doing
anamorphic
> transfers, they may tweak the transfers again and this time restore
BATTLE
> (and hopefully CONQUEST, but I doubt that) and, I hope, improve
PLANET's 5.1
> Dolby Digital.
>
> By the way, the latest Special Edition of Cinescape is "A Guide to
DVD," and
> they've got some good things to say about "The Evolution" Boxed
Set. "The
> transfers. . . are brand new and stunning. Some have grumbled
about this box
> set for its lack of anamorphic transfers or and abundance of
extras. We
> don't agree. The Apes films, from Taylor's opening monologue in
part one
> straight through to The Lawgiver's final words in Battle for...,
remain
> all-time favorites and this set is a must-have regardless of the
details."
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/8/02 9:37:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > Actually I'm talking about the editions that came out in the mid
to
> > late eighties from a FOX division I think was called Playhouse or
> > Playtime Video.
> >
> >
>
> Yeah, those came out in Mid 1985. I remember being crazy about
them when
> they first came out. I'd had the original 1979 Magnetic Video VHS
since it
> came out and had gotten completely sick of looking at it
(Transferred from a
> 16mm print, it had awful picture and sound.), but it wasn't long
before I got
> into LDs and discovered letterboxing that I get sick of those '85
tapes, too.
> And boy it didn't help the original's reputation that it was on
the
> "Playhouse Video" label. That really pissed me off. Of course
then came the
> dreadful Special Edition letterboxed LD. I really hated Fox in
those days --
> it seemed as if they had no respect for APES.
>
> -- Rory

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 9:27 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet Of The Apes] Battle enigma

In a message dated 3/8/02 8:54:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

I don't know about the DVD but my friend was at FOX when the VHS was
put out for the first time. And you've surmised exactly what happened
then.

If you're talking about the August 1998 THX 30th Anniversary VHS Edittions, yeah I'm sure you're right, they spent a lot on restoring film elements on all of them, and remixing the sound for stereo, so they probably weren't willing to spend more.  What we got on DVD in August of 2000 was simply these same tranfers, and non-anamorphic.  When Fox gets around to doing anamorphic transfers, they may tweak the transfers again and this time restore BATTLE (and hopefully CONQUEST, but I doubt that) and, I hope, improve PLANET's 5.1 Dolby Digital.

By the way, the latest Special Edition of Cinescape is "A Guide to DVD," and they've got some good things to say about "The Evolution" Boxed Set.  "The transfers. . . are brand new and stunning.  Some have grumbled about this box set for its lack of anamorphic transfers or and abundance of extras.  We don't agree.  The Apes films, from Taylor's opening monologue in part one straight through to The Lawgiver's final words in Battle for..., remain all-time favorites and this set is a must-have regardless of the details."

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 8:38
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle enigma
>
>
> The whole story of the wrap around being filmed to lenthen the film
> is a total myth. And if Jacobs wanted those scenes removed why did he
> publish the promotional herald that included pictures and text about
> the bomb?
>
> --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > James' story that the scenes with the bomb (and others) were cut
> from BATTLE
> > in order to fit in more playing times doesn't seem right to me.
> They added
> > the flashback sequence to the beginning of the film because Fox
> thought the
> > movie was too short! Why didn't Fox just cut that off if they then
> wanted
> > the film shorter. No, I think there's more to it. I just looked
> in Russo's
> > book for an answer, but can't find it. I'll have to ask him about
> it the
> > next time I talk to him, but this is still a matter very much up in
> the air.
> > I've read for years that Jacobs wanted a more upbeat film and that
> was why
> > the bomb scenes were removed -- that and the fact that there were
> sound
> > problems when they filmed it. If you listen to the dialogue in
> those bomb
> > scenes you can hear jet planes taking off at the nearby airport.
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 8:34
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.
>
>
> I guess you're not familiar with the ecnomics of the film industry.
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Well sorry James but that does not make a lot of sense to me, but
> only time
> > will tell.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: JamesA1102@a... [JamesA1102@a...]
> > > Sent: Friday, 8 March 2002 23:23
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
> > >
> > >
> > > True they did want a more upbeat film but the final cut submitted
> > > by Jacob and Thompson included those scenes. One of the lobby
> > > cards is of that scene and there's even article in the
> > > promotional Herald about it. A friend of mine worked at FOX in
> > > the 80s. The story is the film was trimed at the last minute to
> > > fit in extra showing.
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > I thought I heard Jacobs had those removed because he wanted
> a happier
> > > > movie. The bomb stuff turned it into a downer. They were
> > > planning another
> > > > sequel then at some point during "Battle" they decided to end
> > > it. Maybe it
> > > > being the wrap-up they decided to go out positively.
> > > - - - Jeff
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 5:51 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.

In a message dated 3/8/02 8:08:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  "Battle" is only 85 minutes, with the new stuff 95 min., about the length
of the other sequels. It's not "JFK" length. Cutting off ten minutes isn't
going to make an extra showing a day.                   - - Jeff

There's ten extra minutes of stuff in the Jap LD version?  From what I remember of seeing on TV, there's only about three or four extra minutes.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 10:16
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.
>
>
> Do what you want but I've been in the marketing and advertising
> business for over 10 years now and have friends that have worked at
> all the major studios here & in LA.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 3/8/02 5:36:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > JamesA1102@a... writes:
> >
> >
> > > I guess you're not familiar with the ecnomics of the film industry
> >
> > If the only source for your story about BATTLE is "some guy you
> once knew who
> > worked at Fox in the 80's," then I think we should all take
> whatever you say
> > with a grain of salt. It's simply the mature thing to do.
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 10:17
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Battle enigma
>
>
> I think you've had enough Foster's for one night. LOL
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > I think they cut the scenes because they knew the Statue of Liberty
> was out
> > there.
> >
> > I know this because Jacobs also produced "Dolittle".
> >
> > So argue with that!
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Haristas@a... [Haristas@a...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 5:25
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Battle enigma
> >
> >
> > James' story that the scenes with the bomb (and others) were cut
> from BATTLE
> > in order to fit in more playing times doesn't seem right to me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 6:27 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet Of The Apes] Battle enigma

In a message dated 3/8/02 8:54:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

I don't know about the DVD but my friend was at FOX when the VHS was
put out for the first time. And you've surmised exactly what happened
then.

If you're talking about the August 1998 THX 30th Anniversary VHS Edittions, yeah I'm sure you're right, they spent a lot on restoring film elements on all of them, and remixing the sound for stereo, so they probably weren't willing to spend more.  What we got on DVD in August of 2000 was simply these same tranfers, and non-anamorphic.  When Fox gets around to doing anamorphic transfers, they may tweak the transfers again and this time restore BATTLE (and hopefully CONQUEST, but I doubt that) and, I hope, improve PLANET's 5.1 Dolby Digital.

By the way, the latest Special Edition of Cinescape is "A Guide to DVD," and they've got some good things to say about "The Evolution" Boxed Set.  "The transfers. . . are brand new and stunning.  Some have grumbled about this box set for its lack of anamorphic transfers or and abundance of extras.  We don't agree.  The Apes films, from Taylor's opening monologue in part one straight through to The Lawgiver's final words in Battle for..., remain all-time favorites and this set is a must-have regardless of the details."

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet Of The Apes] Battle enigma


> Actually I'm talking about the editions that came out in the mid to
> late eighties from a FOX division I think was called Playhouse or
> Playtime Video.
>
> --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 3/8/02 8:54:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > JamesA1102@a... writes:
> >
> >
> > > I don't know about the DVD but my friend was at FOX when the VHS
> was
> > > put out for the first time. And you've surmised exactly what
> happened
> > > then.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > If you're talking about the August 1998 THX 30th Anniversary VHS
> Edittions,
> > yeah I'm sure you're right, they spent a lot on restoring film
> elements on
> > all of them, and remixing the sound for stereo, so they probably
> weren't
> > willing to spend more. What we got on DVD in August of 2000 was
> simply these
> > same tranfers, and non-anamorphic. When Fox gets around to doing
> anamorphic
> > transfers, they may tweak the transfers again and this time restore
> BATTLE
> > (and hopefully CONQUEST, but I doubt that) and, I hope, improve
> PLANET's 5.1
> > Dolby Digital.
> >
> > By the way, the latest Special Edition of Cinescape is "A Guide to
> DVD," and
> > they've got some good things to say about "The Evolution" Boxed
> Set. "The
> > transfers. . . are brand new and stunning. Some have grumbled
> about this box
> > set for its lack of anamorphic transfers or and abundance of
> extras. We
> > don't agree. The Apes films, from Taylor's opening monologue in
> part one
> > straight through to The Lawgiver's final words in Battle for...,
> remain
> > all-time favorites and this set is a must-have regardless of the
> details."
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 6:49 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet Of The Apes] Battle enigma

In a message dated 3/8/02 9:37:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Actually I'm talking about the editions that came out in the mid to
late eighties from a FOX division I think was called Playhouse or
Playtime Video.

Yeah, those came out in Mid 1985.  I remember being crazy about them when they first came out.  I'd had the original 1979 Magnetic Video VHS since it came out and had gotten completely sick of looking at it (Transferred from a 16mm print, it had awful picture and sound.), but it wasn't long before I got into LDs and discovered letterboxing that I get sick of those '85 tapes, too.  And boy it didn't help the original's reputation that it was on the "Playhouse Video" label.  That really pissed me off.  Of course then came the dreadful Special Edition letterboxed LD.  I really hated Fox in those days -- it seemed as if they had no respect for APES.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----

From: ThyPentacle

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 2:19 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] miscellaneous

A little while back a few of you were linking different actors to each other with that 'six degrees of separation' thing and I thought this would help make it easier next time you feel the need waste some time. :o)

 

http://oracleofbacon.org/oracle/star_links.html"

 

 

Also, I fixed the problem with my Chimpette group at SmartGroups.com. If you tried to join and it didn't work, please try again here: http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/chimpettesofpota

 

 

Lastly, I have added a message board to my site. Feel free to stop by and vent anytime. ;o)

 

http://thypentacle.tripod.com/ari.html"

 

 

Nuff said,

 

ThyPentacle

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> About as familiar as you are with how to spell economics I'd say!
>
> Are we talking about the economics of the WORLD film industry or
just the
> USA?
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 8:34
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.
> >
> >
> > I guess you're not familiar with the ecnomics of the film
industry.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > Well sorry James but that does not make a lot of sense to me,
but
> > only time
> > > will tell.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: JamesA1102@a... [JamesA1102@a...]
> > > > Sent: Friday, 8 March 2002 23:23
> > > > To: pota@y...
> > > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered
Timeline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > True they did want a more upbeat film but the final cut
submitted
> > > > by Jacob and Thompson included those scenes. One of the lobby
> > > > cards is of that scene and there's even article in the
> > > > promotional Herald about it. A friend of mine worked at FOX in
> > > > the 80s. The story is the film was trimed at the last minute
to
> > > > fit in extra showing.
> > > >
> > > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > > I thought I heard Jacobs had those removed because he
wanted
> > a happier
> > > > > movie. The bomb stuff turned it into a downer. They were
> > > > planning another
> > > > > sequel then at some point during "Battle" they decided to
end
> > > > it. Maybe it
> > > > > being the wrap-up they decided to go out positively.
> > > > - - - Jeff
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> I'll bet they're all fucked up on coke and don't even remember what
happened
> yesterday!!!
>
> And they are probably almost as full of shit as you are James.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 10:16
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.
> >
> >
> > Do what you want but I've been in the marketing and advertising
> > business for over 10 years now and have friends that have worked
at
> > all the major studios here & in LA.
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 3/8/02 5:36:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > JamesA1102@a... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > I guess you're not familiar with the ecnomics of the film
industry
> > >
> > > If the only source for your story about BATTLE is "some guy you
> > once knew who
> > > worked at Fox in the 80's," then I think we should all take
> > whatever you say
> > > with a grain of salt. It's simply the mature thing to do.
> > >
> > > -- Rory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

> Don't poke sticks at Whitty through the bars of his cage, James.

> I'm bad, you should have been around for the great Michael/Alex

> months ago.
>
> -- Rory

> In a message dated 3/6/02 11:01:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:

----- Original Message -----

From: james611102

Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 6:11 AM

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.

USA of course. Remember it's America's world, you all just live in
it;-)


--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> About as familiar as you are with how to spell economics I'd say!
>
> Are we talking about the economics of the WORLD film industry or
just the
> USA?
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 9 March 2002 8:34
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Battle cut scenes.
> >
> >
> > I guess you're not familiar with the ecnomics of the film
industry.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > Well sorry James but that does not make a lot of sense to me,
but
> > only time
> > > will tell.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: JamesA1102@a... [JamesA1102@a...]
> > > > Sent: Friday, 8 March 2002 23:23
> > > > To: pota@y...
> > > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered
Timeline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > True they did want a more upbeat film but the final cut
submitted
> > > > by Jacob and Thompson included those scenes. One of the lobby
> > > > cards is of that scene and there's even article in the
> > > > promotional Herald about it. A friend of mine worked at FOX in
> > > > the 80s. The story is the film was trimed at the last minute
to
> > > > fit in extra showing.
> > > >
> > > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > >   I thought I heard Jacobs had those removed because he
wanted
> > a happier
> > > > > movie. The bomb stuff turned it into a downer. They were
> > > > planning another
> > > > > sequel then at some point during "Battle" they decided to
end
> > > > it. Maybe it
> > > > > being the wrap-up they decided to go out positively.
> > > >  - - - Jeff
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >

>From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] The Sequel to message #14952...
>Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 08:08:56 +1000
>
>Exactly Rory
>
>Although I admit none of us knows the precise answer.
>
>Could be either way.
>
>Michael
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Haristas@... [Haristas@...]
>Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2002 22:53
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] The Sequel to message #14952...
>
>
>In a message dated 3/6/02 11:01:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:
>
>
>
> Rory, you're the one who seems to favor a PLANET-only outlook
> (dismissing BENEATH as a "mess" and so on)... so you tell me: what
> ELSE could Zaius' line ("... you may not like what you'll find...") be
> referring to?
>
>
>
>Well. . . . the fact that in the apes' pre-history the area that would
>become know as the Forbidden Zone was highly radioactive and therefore
>literally deadly might have A LOT to do with why it would be declared
>Forbidden. It isn't necessary to believe something silly like that apes
>know of The Statue of Liberty, and as far as Zaius' line, "You may not like
>what you find," well that simply implies that he knows Taylor will PROBABLY
>find evidence of his destroyed civilization, NOT that he literally knows
>exactly what Taylor will see.
>
>-- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

> "The Forbidden Zone was once a Paradise; your breed made a desert

> it, ages ago!" says Zaius.

>
> I'm afraid I can't agree with a number of things here, but most...
>
> Thanks for bringing up all these issues.
>
> ...especially the notion that the Lawgiver in BATTLE is meant to be
> the same one that Zaius mentions in PLANET. Chronologically, they
> CAN'T be the same "Lawgiver". Taylor asks Zaius, "When were those
> Sacred Scrolls of yours written?" Zaius replies, "Twelve hundred

> ago." Let's take him at his word: IF the Lawgiver wrote the Sacred
> Scrolls 1,200 years before 3978 or 3955 (feel free to pick either
> year), then the SS were written sometime around 2755-to-2778, and

> the Lawgiver scene in BATTLE takes place--as the opening shot shows-

> in "North America, 2670 A.D.", which is 85-to-108 years EARLIER. In
> fact, the...
>
> In BATTLE we didn't see any evidence of the "period of primitive
> barbarism" that Cornelius in PLANET said occured before the Sacred
> Scrolls were written. What we saw in the altered timeline,

> were signs of an integrated liberal civilization still surviving

> still honoring Caesar nearly 700 years after he granted equality to
> the humans. Having all that suddenly fall apart in the last few
> decades before the scrolls conflicts with the centuries of

> barbarism in the original timeline.
>
> --No, it doesn't. First off, the "forbidden city" where Kolp rules
> over the "mutants" is not New York City--it is only later that the
> "Mendez community" brings their Alpha Omega Bomb there (nowhere in

> "extended BATTLE" is there any hint that they're in NYC, but in
> BENEATH it is obvious that the AO Bomb ends up in St. Patrick's
> Cathedral. My point is that Caesar led his "remnant" to a habitable
> area within a "three-days'-journey" there-and-back of the nuked

> Breck once governed; but this is NOT in the same geographical

> where Zaius/Cornelius/Zira dwell some 2000 years later. The NYC

> has dwelling near it (and "in" its cave-ruin) "carnivorous

> roughly 1300 years before PLANET (and about 100 years prior to the
> writing of the Sacred Scrolls, which were written 1200 years prior

> PLANET). Just because there are "carnivorous gorillas" dwelling in/
> near NYC c. 2655-ish, it doesn't mean that ELSEWHERE on the

> of "North America" there can't be the BATTLE "Lawgiver" and his
> peaceful Ape-and-Human-equals society. In my scenario, ESCAPE and
> CONQUEST and BATTLE (and the TV series) take place in California,

> at some point AFTER the TV series, the majority of the Ape society
> (perhaps because of a combination of natural disasters and race

> migrates FROM the California area TO the New York City area (an
> earlier "wave" of emigrants having traveled to that area earlier)--

> the Mendez community (either BEFORE this, or maybe DURING or

> AFTER this) also migrates away from Breck's ruined city in order to
> set up their Bomb god in the ruins of a buried St. Patrick's
> Cathedral. There are CENTURIES of time available in which to do

> think of the various theories regarding the migrations of peoples/
> artifacts in human history (such as the Ark of the Covenant, the

> Grail, the Shroud of Turin, the Treasures of the Temple, etc., the
> "lost tribes of Israel", the remnant of the Trojans who fled Ilium

> Latium [Virgil's AENEID], the diaspora of the Jews after the Romans
> destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D., the invasions of the British isles

> Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Normans... etc.

> It is not at all improbable that the "Caesar community" found

> having to flee one location after having dwelt there peacefully for
> centuries, because of the threats posed by a non-peaceful, violent
> movement (led by a "Lawgiver" who opposes Ape/Human equality,
> believing that Humans are "the devil's pawn").
>
> We have plenty of evidence that ALL of the dates from the original
> timeline are approximate at best. They are simply too untrustworthy

> put precise dates on things. Remember that Cornelius in ESCAPE

> according to the Secret Scrolls that the original ape revolt takes
> centuries, even though BENEATH show ruins from the 20th century.

> this tells us is that the apes were guessing about the time scales,
> like scholars guessing when the Iliad was written. Neither Zaius

> Cornelius had precise dates. It is very unlikely that the scrolls
> were written exactly 1200 years before Zaius spoke, that number is

> round. Also, we had two different space ships give 2 different

> that were decades apart. Maybe a 3rd ship would give a third

> Perhaps a computer on the ships guessed the year by comparing
> positions of stars at different intervals, since they had an

> margin of error. Obviously the technology had never been tested
> before. The only year we really know is the Lawgiver scene in

>
> --We don't have "plenty of evidence", only our respective
> interpretations, which differ. Prior to Cornelius and Zira telling
> Hasslein of the 'five centuries' between the Plague and the
> Revolution, Cornelius told the Presidential Commission that the
> English language had been the language of the Apes for "two

> years" roughly. Since "microscopic scrutiny" by NASA scientists had
> affirmed that the EARTH-TIME date when the "Ape-onauts" left their

> time was 3955, then "roughly" 2000 years earlier would put Simian
> vocal english-language use in the late 20th century. At the time,
> Cornelius and Zira were being QUESTIONED, but not GRILLED by CIA
> interrogators, so with the exception of telling a lie about not
> knowing "Colonel Taylor" ("Is he a soldier?") Cornelius tells the
> truth to the Chairman and Hasslein and the Cardinal (etc.). But

> after Zira had gotten drunk and told Hasslein something they had

> intended to reveal (the destruction of the Earth), they are taken

> "Camp Eleven" to be interrogated... and it should have been OBVIOUS

> them that Hasslein (and others) were NOT entirely satisfied with

> answers to the Commission--and that they could expect to be

> to "inquisitional" tactics. Their interrogators use bright lights
> (shone into their dark-adjusted eyes), derogatory terms ("...you're
> all monkeys..."), etc., in order to rattle the Apes. Cornelius

> about the Plague, about Apes-as-pets, about Apes-as-slaves, and

> an ape named "Aldo" who verbally indicated his refusal to be a

> by saying "No" to a human. If Hasslein had been paying attention
> earlier, he might have said something like, "But, Cornelius, how

> this 'Aldo' have been the first ape to speak--some five centuries
> after this mysterious plague--when you yourself told the Commission
> that your ancestors have been speaking our language for roughly two
> thousand years? We know that the spaceship your friend Milo found

> backwards through Time from your era--the year 3955--to our

> which is the year 1973. How can there be a five-century gap in the
> time when Apes first spoke?" In other words, the ONLY way that the
> later reference to "five centuries" can be meshed with the earlier
> testimony is if it is purposely "fudged" by both Cornelius and

> They are proud of their ancestors, who defied Man's cruelty and

> a war of revolution to free themselves... and they are exultant

> glad that Hasslein and the others will KNOW that their days are
> numbered... but rather than tell the WHOLE truth, and clue them in
> that the Plague is only 10 years away (i.e. in 1983, "eight years

> from 1991), they purposely mis-inform them regarding this interval,

> order to give Hasslein a false sense of security regarding the
> longevity of human civilization. Hasslein will think that humanity
> still has some 500 years left to it in order to further its own

> and he might well expect humanity to have long since gone to the

> within the next several centuries... but ONLY if he swallows the

> timeline Cornelius and Zira tell him during their grilling.
> Unfortunately for Hasslein (and fortunately for Cornelius and

> the earlier testimony (2000 years speaking English) has been
> forgotten...
> Were the Sacred Scrolls written EXACTLY 1200 years before PLANET?

> course not! But they WERE written at a time that could be "rounded
> off" to 1200, just as Taylor tells Landon first that they are 320
> lightyears away from Earth... and then later says, "You're three
> hundred lightyears from your precious planet..." (i.e. rounding off
> 320 to the nearest hundred: "300")
> Check out my other postings regarding how my scenario reconciles

> of the chronometer dates in the POTA saga; for now, let me just say
> that we can KNOW that Milo and his pals leave the doomed Earth in

> and travel back-in-time to 1973, because the chronometer readings

> the computer tapes) were witnessed (by Zira) and inspected with
> "microscopic scrutiny"... and we KNOW that ESCAPE takes place in

> (the last EARTH-TIME reading seen by Zira), since the Chairman of

> Presidential Commission of Inquiry declares it "dissolved" in "the
> year of our Lord Nineteen-hundred Seventy-Three". If the ANSA ship
> could tell the EARTH-TIME accurately at the end of that journey
> (1973), then it MUST have been telling the time accurately at the
> start of that journey (3955).
>
> "... and your methods of dating [the past] are crude to say the
> least." -Dr. Zaius
>
> --"But there's the DOLL...!" -Dr. Zira (So there!)
>
> The bottom line is that we don't know exact dates for ANYTHING in

> original timeline, and that includes the date for the Zaius/Ursus

> when the sacred scrolls were written, or when the revolution

> But we do have evidence showing that (1) the apes knowledge of the
> past was not always accurate regarding time scales, and (2) the

> ships were not always accurate either.
>
> --I disagree. Read past postings of mine for an explanation (mine)

> how Taylor's ship can have an EARTH-TIME reading of 11-25-3978 in

> actual year 3955. It would take too long to regurgitate it here,

> it extrapolates with PLANET and BENEATH using the EARTH-TIME data

> the TV show's opening credit sequence and the "day-after-landing"
> reading: both Taylor's ship and Virdon's ship end up back on Earth
> after A.) a too-close approach to a black hole, B.) the activation

> an "automatic homing device", C.) the activation of their ships'
> "hyperdrive engines" and acceleration into "overdrive" in order to
> escape the black holes trapping the respective ships, D.) and the
> backwards-through-Time travel from their respective destinations

> LY away in Orion and 4.34 LY away at Alpha Centauri, respectively]

> a proportional rate of "retro-temporal Time per Distance in
> lightyears"--Virdon's ship goes back through Time 115 days [from

> EARTH-TIME date 7-14-3085 (opening credits) to 3-21-3085 (the day
> Virdon landed, Prefect Veska's gorillas smashed up the computers,
> "freezing" the date 3-21-3085 onto the EARTH-TIME clock], whereas
> Taylor's ship goes back through Time an equivalent amount of

> Time-per-Lightyear [from the EARTH-TIME date 11-25-3978 (PLANET) to
> sometime in the summer of 3955 (BENEATH and ESCAPE). Compare the
> Distances in Lightyears (320 and 4.34) to the "retro-temporal"

> (just over 23 years [Taylor] and 115 days [Virdon]--they're
> equivalent.
>
> "circularity" of the APES saga is suggested by the 2670-date, since
> the first film opens up on the EARTH-TIME date 2673. At just about

> same (Earth) time that Taylor says, "You who are reading me now are

> different breed... I hope a better one" and asks "Does Man--that
> marvel of the universe, that glorious paradox who sent me to the
> stars--still make war against his brother?..." there is a talking
> orangutan called "Lawgiver" preaching to a mixed-race/species group.
> But some 85 years later or so, the human-hating Sacred Scrolls will

> written, by a different "Lawgiver", since the John Huston-portrayed
> character (being an old person) will have long since died by that

> (i.e. 2755-ish).
>
> We know for certain there is only one Lawgiver. Because Dr. Zaius
> says "the greatest ape of all, our Lawgiver". He doesn't say "one

> our lawgivers". In my view creating other apes called "Lawgiver"

> putting them into the timeline is stretching things way beyond what
> the writers intended, kind of like saying Spock was gay in Star

> The Lawgiver in BATTLE was definitely intended to be the same ape

> the one mentioned in the first movie. Otherwise putting that scene
> into the script would simply be pointless.
>
> --Nonsense! The very first "lawgiver" is CAESAR--it was HE who
> "forbade" journeying to the "forbidden city", and who established

> "first [civil] law" ("A human may never say "No" to an Ape"), as

> as the "most sacred [i.e. ecclesiastical] law" ("Ape shall never

> Ape"). Who else could have "given" these "laws" if NOT Caesar,

> King? Remember when Virgil reminds Aldo--who said that "to go to

> City is forbidden!"--that Caesar can wear a crown which is

> to others ("Caesar is Caesar")? The first laws were established by

> Apes' king--Caesar--whose word is Law (as in all true monarchies).
> The term "Lawgiver" can be compared to the term "Messiah": just
> because Christians consider Jesus to be THE Messiah doesn't mean

> the term ONLY applies/applied to him; in fact, ANY person who had

> "anointed" qualified for "messiahship"--including every king of the
> line of David, every acknowledged prophet, every priest in the line

> Aaron and Zadok, etc. There were MANY persons who could be called
> "Messiah", but Christians call Jesus THE Messiah, just as Zaius

> to one particular "lawgiver" as "the greatest Ape of all, our
> Lawgiver" (i.e. the most important "lawgiver" of the bunch). Think

> how Muslims agree that there were many prophets throughout history,
> but that the LAST (and greatest) of the prophets was Muhammed. When

> Muslim speaks of "the Prophet", you can bet he's talking about
> Muhammed... but that doesn't mean that he was the ONLY prophet who
> ever lived.
> The "Spock is gay" idea IS ridiculous, however... but it has

> to do with this debate, my friend.
>
> Another crucial thing to realize is that the Lawgiver scene is not

> only major evidence we have that the timeline was altered. In

> Cornelius identifies Aldo -- instead of Caesar -- as the leader of

> ape revolution. That's because Caesar wasn't in the original

> because his parents hadn't been born yet. We know that Aldo wanted

> kill all of the humans, instead of making them equals like Caesar

> In the version of the BATTLE script used in the Marvel adaptation,
> Caesar at first wonders what he needs to do to alter the future.

> he suddenly understands what he needs to do when he hears Cornelius
> mention Aldo's name.
>
> --In the actual movie, Caesar never hears the name "Aldo" spoken by
> his father on the tapes. Besides, there were TWO apes named "Aldo"

> the POTA saga--in CONQUEST, Caesar shouts out "Lousy human

> after seeing the brutal beating of a CHIMPANZEE messenger at the

> of the labor demonstration... a chimp referred to as "Aldo" (in the
> script, the novelization, AND in the movie). In my scenario, this
> chimp named Aldo dies within a day or so (as a consequence of his
> beating), and the name is "freed up" for use by someone else (the

> names being registered by Ape Management). The next day, after

> has infiltrated the shipment of orangutans from Borneo, he is led
> through Ape Management, and he sees a gorilla being "electrically
> conditioned" to respond to the "NO!" command--in my scenario, THIS
> gorilla is later given the name "Aldo" that the now-dead chimp had

> up until the day before. Cornelius NEVER "identifies" Aldo as the
> leader of the Ape Revolution--he merely informs Hasslein that "an

> named Aldo" was the first ape to say "No" to a human, in defiance

> subjugation under humans. In the BATTLE prologue, the "Lawgiver"

> names Caesar's parents as "Zira and Cornelius"--which WOULD have

> Cornelius in, regarding the content of the "secret scrolls": he

> have known that HE HIMSELF was the father of the ape whose story

> "Lawgiver" tells to his pupils in 2670. "...then God sent the world

> Savior, miraculously born of TWO APES who descended to Earth from
> Earth's own future..." When Cornelius travels back through Time,

> THEN could he possibly suspect that he and Zira were the "two apes"
> spoken of in that old "secret scroll". The actual scroll never

> the names of those "two apes" (as far as we know).
>
> Far from removing "any and all doubt", the BATTLE Lawgiver-scene

> further serves to point out the circularity of the APES saga. The
> ending seems "edenic", but the last images we see are of CONFLICT

> black human girl and the young chimp fighting) and of SORROW (the
> It looks like kids playing with each other to me. I don't doubt at
> all that individual prejudice continues to exist in the altered
> timeline. But whether the culture discourages or encourages

> makes all the difference in the world in the amount of individual
> prejudice. That is why Palestine/Israel has a tad bit more

> violence than the USA does. In the original POTA timeline bigotry

> not only tolerated, it was ingrained into the culture and

> into religious dogma because of the Lawgiver's Sacred Scrolls.

> the difference between a culture that discourages and encourages
> prejudice is the difference between Palestine/Israel and the USA.
> Individual prejudices cannot be eliminated entirely, but it is a
> culture's attitude towards it that is crucial.
>
> statue of Caesar shedding a tear). Yes, Caesar wants/wanted to

>
> Maybe that is a tear of joy. Personally, it sounds like a mutant
> illusion to me. We know that the mutants can (1) cause statues to
> have tears, and (2) "see" things over great distances. Maybe Caesar
> affected the mutant culture also. Paul Dehn tacked on that scene

> the Corrington's BATTLE script. But since Dehn didn't remove the
> Lawgiver scene, the tear ends up reinforcing the non-circular

> by hinting that Caesar may have slowly affected the mutant culture
> too.
>
> --A tear of joy? I doubt it. Before we fast-forward to the Lawgiver
> again, we are left with Caesar telling Mandemus that they must
> maintain the Armory (i.e. there will always be Guns around, just in
> case they have to deal with another attack from the Mutants), and

> can bet that any further travel into the "forbidden" city/cities is
> discouraged, in order to avoid any more conflicts such as the one

> survived from Kolp's forces. The "Caesar community" keeps its

> the "Mendez community" keeps its Bomb... and each group avoids the
> other... but it's out of Caesar's hands what the DESCENDANTS of his
> people do. Caesar HOPES that armed conflict will be avoided, but he
> cannot prevent it IF it should happen hundreds of years down the

> "Who knows about the Future?" the little girl asks... and the

> doesn't know the Truth, answering, "Perhaps only the Dead"... and

> we pan over to Caesar's statue, which is weeping.
>
> the future, defeating Aldo and freeing the humans; but does he
> actually succeed in changing the "prophesied" future his parents
> witnessed? Don't forget--the Mendez community has the Alpha Omega
> bomb (in the "expanded" version of BATTLE), and the seeds of bomb-
> worship are sown when Mendez convinces Alma to NOT detonate it, but
> rather to revere it for making them what they are. If the "message"

> BATTLE is
>
> Good point. I'm glad you brought this up because I agree it could be
> confusing. What we know is that all the events of BENEATH (and
> PLANET) were erased completely, and so the world was saved from

> apocalypse. Of course it is also true that the bomb was never
> destroyed, and there aren't any iron clad guarantees after BATTLE

> the world will never be destroyed (which left a small sequel
> possibility).
>
> --We do not "know" that "all the events of BENEATH... were erased"!
> You are free to INTERPRET the saga as such, but the continued

> of that world-destroying Bomb will always leave open the

> even the probability, that the Earth WILL be wiped out. All it

> is one ape with the power to violate the "ancient taboo" (as Ursus
> does), re-naming the Mutants' territory as "the once-Forbidden

> on a mission to "expand the boundaries" of his society--which is in
> danger of starving to death, in need of "new, improved feeding
> grounds". As long as Mendez' group keeps the Bomb around (hey, they
> WORSHIP the damn thing!), the threat of annihilation will always be
> there.
>
> "And then God sent the world a Saviour...."
> The Lawgiver (BATTLE)
>
> The BATTLE script was about Caesar's mission to alter the future

> save the world. The Alpha Omega bomb scenes seen in the extended
> version served a purpose in the Corrington's script, which was to
> constantly remind us exactly how high the stakes were in Caesar's

> to alter the future.
>
> --Caesar's mission is to TRY to alter the future and save the

> So, too, was Hasslein's mission... and how successful was HE?

> believes that the Future from which Cornelius and Zira came is
> "destiny... the UNALTERABLE WILL OF GOD"--and Hasslein FAILED to
> change it. Armando must have believed that the detonation of the

> ALSO is "unalterable", destined, fated, inevitable. So, is it?

> free to disagree, of course; I think that the existence of the

> with which to accomplish the destruction of the planet is the trump
> card in this particular poker hand.
>
> that the apocalyptic future CAN be changed, then the BEST way to
> accomplish this would be for Mendez to DISMANTLE the Alpha Omega

> so that it--the actual device which CAUSES the Earth to be

> cannot fulfill its destiny, its only purpose. Yet the script for
> BATTLE comes full circle, setting up the Mutant community so that

> future development (i.e. what we see of it in BENEATH) follows as a
> matter of course.
> I'm sorry, but the "racial apocalypse" (as Eric Greene termed it in
> his book) seen in BENEATH will always loom over the heads of the
> inhabitants of the planet of the apes throughout its 20-century
> timeline, as long as the "doomsday bomb" is still around and capable
> of being triggered. There is NO indication that that bomb is

> incapable of doing what it was designed to do--destroy the entire
> planet, and THAT makes the circular timeline particularly compelling
> to me.
>
> No, it would have been illogical to have Mendez dismantle the Alpha
> Omega bomb in the altered timeline. Why? Because he didn't do so

> the original timeline. There is not a conflict between the

> BATTLE and the altered timeline. Remember that Caesar's effect on
> history was mainly on the ape city culture, and not the mutant
> culture. Caesar didn't need to affect the mutant culture in order

> erase the Earth's destruction in BENEATH, because the mutant

> were already pacifists in the original timeline. It was the ape
> culture that launched the attack. The cause of the war was the
> bigotry in the ape culture, and bigotry was ingrained into the ape
> culture because of the Sacred Scrolls. There was (1) no need for
> Mendez to destroy the bomb in BATTLE to stop the apocalypse in
> BENEATH, nor (2) any logical reason that Caesar would cause Mendez

> destroy it.
> Caesar never even met Mendez at any point in the movie.
>
> --The "peaceful people" (Mendez' group) is hardly that! They claim

> be peaceful, to be people who do not harm others... but they use

> mental powers ("visual deterrent", "sonic deterrent", the closed-

> pain-jolts, etc.) to get their enemies to kill each other--against
> their will. They call a Bomb which can destroy an entire planet "a
> holy weapon of peace". We are meant to be flabbergasted by such an
> appelation--it's a SATIRE, for Pete's sake! They have no guns

> they haven't NEEDED any guns, ever since their mental powers of
> illusion surfaced and were honed. After Zaius breaks through their
> illusions--using his own religious convictions as a "shield"

> the "vision"/"lie"--the Mutants are susceptible to attack.
> Does the "bigotry" of the ape culture ENTIRELY disappear by the

> 2670? Maybe in this one small community shepherded by the old
> "Lawgiver" played by John Huston, but not necessarily throughout

> ENTIRE length and breadth of the habitable remnants of North

> What if a dozen miles away there's a different group... an "apes-

> group... which not only remembers that the devastated "forbidden
> zones" were once beautiful and habitable, but that Man had defiled
> them with his technology and his warlike ways? What if they have
> records of the human-hating Aldo... and sympathize with HIS views,
> thinking that he got the "shaft" from the Caesar-loving historians
> down the road? Sure, they would agree that it was wrong for Aldo to
> kill another ape... but he had been driven to do so only because
> Caesar had become a "human-lover"--a disgrace to Apekind. Perhaps
> there were gorillas who didn't appreciate the fact that other apes
> look down on gorillas, just because the first (and only?) ape-on-

> murder was committed by a gorilla. Perhaps the ample evidence of

> inferiority (the nuke-blasted "forbidden zones") makes SOME apes--
> probably gorillas--think that the death of young Cornelius, though
> tragic, was NECESSARY, in that it ended the "dynasty" of Caesar,

> they felt had betrayed the "will of God" which demanded that Apes

> over Humans ("...there will be no place for humans, except to serve
> our ends..." Caesar had said, in his rant at the end of CONQUEST):
> "Destiny is the Will of God... and if it is Man's destiny to be
> dominated... then it is God's will that he be dominated with
> compassion... and understanding..."
> What happened to the "domination" Caesar had spoken about? Wasn't

> "the Will of God"? Why should Caesar CHANGE things? his later

> might argue.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 3-09-2002

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
The whole story of the wrap around being filmed to lengthen the film
is a total myth. And if Jacobs wanted those scenes removed why did he
publish the promotional herald that included pictures and text about
the bomb?

--The Lawgiver "frame-scenes" were scripted (check out SCRIPTCITY for
your copy, fellow Apesfans), so they were NOT mere "after-thoughts"
tagged-on to give it more time. The movie WAS trimmed for time, since
there were OTHER scenes scripted which didn't make the final edit--
including the "rabbit dinner" sequence, where MacDonald tells
"Teacher" and "Doctor" about his up-coming trip to the "forbidden
city" with Caesar and Virgil. If they had needed more scenes to "fill
up" the time, why not include that scene, then, too? Unfortunately,
they opted to make BATTLE the shortest of the APES flicks, to its
detriment. Thank Godzilla that the Japanese laserdisc has some extra
footage (if not ALL the extra footage out there)!

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 3-09-2002

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
James' story that the scenes with the bomb (and others) were cut from
BATTLE in order to fit in more playing times doesn't seem right to me.
They added the flashback sequence to the beginning of the film because
Fox thought the movie was too short! Why didn't Fox just cut that off
if they then wanted the film shorter. No, I think there's more to it.
I just looked in Russo's book for an answer, but can't find it. I'll
have to ask him about it the next time I talk to him, but this is
still a matter very much up in the air.
I've read for years that Jacobs wanted a more upbeat film and that
was why the bomb scenes were removed -- that and the fact that there
were sound problems when they filmed it. If you listen to the
dialogue in those bomb scenes you can hear jet planes taking off at
the nearby airport.

-- Rory

> In a message dated 3/8/02 8:54:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
> > I don't know about the DVD but my friend was at FOX when the VHS was
> > put out for the first time. And you've surmised exactly what happened
> > then.
> >
> >
>
> If you're talking about the August 1998 THX 30th Anniversary VHS Edittions,
> yeah I'm sure you're right, they spent a lot on restoring film elements on
> all of them, and remixing the sound for stereo, so they probably weren't
> willing to spend more. What we got on DVD in August of 2000 was simply these
> same tranfers, and non-anamorphic. When Fox gets around to doing anamorphic
> transfers, they may tweak the transfers again and this time restore BATTLE
> (and hopefully CONQUEST, but I doubt that) and, I hope, improve PLANET's 5.1
> Dolby Digital.
>
> By the way, the latest Special Edition of Cinescape is "A Guide to DVD," and
> they've got some good things to say about "The Evolution" Boxed Set. "The
> transfers. . . are brand new and stunning. Some have grumbled about this box
> set for its lack of anamorphic transfers or and abundance of extras. We
> don't agree. The Apes films, from Taylor's opening monologue in part one
> straight through to The Lawgiver's final words in Battle for..., remain
> all-time favorites and this set is a must-have regardless of the details."
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
If [they're] not in NYC then where are they? Why would they move from
the radioactive underground ruins of one city and settle in the
radioactive underground ruins of another? That just doesn't make any
sense. Of course, they are not in NYC maybe it is an altered timeline
as Rory states.

--Is there ANY visible detail of Breck's city that even remotely
suggests that it is New York City? Absolutely not! Look above the
horizon--do you see any recognizable NYC skyscrapers throughout
CONQUEST? Nope.
Why would the "mutants" move from the "radioactive underground ruins
of one city" etc.? This begs the question: Why does Kolp's group stay
in the ruins of Breck's city? Why doesn't he lead his radiation-
scarred people out to some habitable area unblasted by nukes?
Kolp's group must have sources for food and water, otherwise they
would have died of starvation long before Caesar goes snooping around
their Archives section. Somehow, Kolp's people are able to survive in
that underground ruin, with Kolp keeping them busy with tasks
(scavenging, repairing, guarding, etc.). Somehow, between CONQUEST
(1991) and BATTLE (c. 2018, "27 years" after Mandemus became the
Keeper of Caesar's Armory), Kolp acquires the Alpha Omega Bomb--
perhaps he doesn't want to move his people elsewhere because moving
the Bomb would be logistically difficult.
After BATTLE, the odds of Mendez' group being interfered with by apes
diminishes, since Caesar doesn't want to antagonize them anymore,
allowing the defeated "mutants" to return to their home.

It hasn't been addressed yet (as far as I can recall), but one
wonders: How do the "mutants" acquire their telepathic abilities? Is
it the result of radiation exposure? Could it be that exposure to
radiation is only ONE factor in the emergence of that mentalic
"mutation"?
How about living UNDERGROUND? Might that have an effect on the
cognitive abilities of a population of people?
Let us suppose that it is--in part--the lack of exposure to sunlight
which affects the Mendez group, generation after generation, so that
their brains have to "cook up" neuro-chemicals to compensate for the
lack of sunlight. Perhaps the "illusion"-casting ability evolves
sometime in the mid-to-late 21st century, and can only be diminished
when the "mutant" goes out into the sunlight... just as vampires can
only use their paranormal powers either at night or out of sunlight
(in Bram Stoker's novel, DRACULA, the Count is not killed by sunlight;
he merely loses his supernatural abilities when exposed to it; there's
a scene in the novel where Van Helsing and his pals await Dracula's
return to one of his secret London properties, hoping to kill him
during the day, when he can't turn into a bat or a wolf or a mist;
they nearly succeed. It is only in movie versions which are unfaithful
to Stoker's novel--and in other vampire movies & books--where exposure
to sunlight actually kills the Undead; it ain't that way in the
original book).
Let us suppose, then, that the Mendez group doesn't wish to lose their
telepathic powers--which exposure to sunlight diminishes--so that they
MUST stay underground in order to keep those abilities.
What would happen, then, if they were somehow forced to abandon the
ruins of Breck's city (perhaps a couple centuries later)? What if
tectonic activity (earthquakes and volcanoes) were to become so harsh
that their very survival depended upon them leaving the CONQUEST/
BATTLE location... and finding some other subterranean location
suitable for their telepathic needs?
In my scenario, this is what prompts one of the line of Mendez to lead
his people out across country--their Holy Bomb with them--perhaps
through subsurface, cross-country military-built tunnels (through
which--prior to the Nuke War--the U.S. military transferred nuclear
weapons and other materiel, away from the prying eyes of enemy
satellites). When they get to the hollow caverns beneath the surface
of the "New York area Forbidden Zone", they find that it "fits the
bill", and set up shop, so to speak.
It's just their luck that the Lawgiver will end up leading an "exodus"
of apes to occupy their "next door" territory...

You don't have to agree with my scenario, mind you. All I'm saying is
that it IS consistent with the details given in the filmed saga, and
it DOES make sense. At least to me, anyway.

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 3-09-2002

----- Original Message -----

From: Sammo Law

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:54 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: POTA Music Video 2

is there a way to burn vcds onto a R-cd with my cd burner?

-Sammo_of_Borg

 

>From: "Calima 5021"

>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com

>To: pota@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: POTA Music Video 2

>Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 16:38:45 -0500

>

>A VCD is the same as a Audio CD, instead of you making an audio CD with a

>regular CD, you make a "Video CD" that can be played on a DVD player.

>And so there is software out there that can do this.

>

>Burns just the same as you would an audio CD. That's why my videos are so

>big in size. Simply for those who can download and burn themselves. Although

>nothing beats DVD, VCD or SVCD is the next best thing. "Super Video CD".

>(clearer picture but even bigger in size when it comes to the file itself)

>

>Best.

>Al

>

>

>

> >From: "Eileen Rankin"

> >Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com

> >To:

> >Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: POTA Music Video 2

> >Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:28:49 -0500

> >

> >What's a vcd????

> >

> >Eileen

> >

> >----- Original Message -----

> >From: Calima 5021

> >Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 4:27 PM

> >To: pota@yahoogroups.com

> >Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: POTA Music Video 2

> >

> >Anytime Helen.

> >There will be more in the future.

> >There's a software called: Easy CD Creator 5 PLATINUM.

> >This not only records CD music and data discs but also VCD's that can play

> >on your DVD player.

> >

> >Best and thanks.

> >Al

> >

> >

> >

> > >From: "sand_hill_school"

> > >Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com

> > >To: pota@yahoogroups.com

> > >Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: POTA Music Video 2

> > >Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 16:52:50 -0000

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >_________________________________________________________________

> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

>

>

>

>

>_________________________________________________________________

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