----- Original Message -----

From: valwp

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:02 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Pics - POTA tv show episode: The Good Seeds

--- In pota@y..., "ThyPentacle" <agnosticdragon@y...> wrote:
> Thanks again Kassidy! :o)  I have added all those to my group and
website.
>
> ThyPentacle
>
>
>
>You are very welcome!  You still don't have Kira from "The Surgeon"
and Fauna from "The Deception".  I think you have everyone else from
the tv series now.
Kassidy

>
>I still find it hard to swallow that Paul Dehn (who made so many careless
>flubs) had the intention of making these great parallels to the
>characteristics of the great epics.
>
>Yes, there is evidence there but it is also believable that these
>characteristics were more coincidental than chosen.
>

>
>I had always assumed the Aldo metioned in the credits of Conquest was
>one of the gorillas. Which one of the chimps is he?
>
>--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
>> I believe the Corringtons also intended the BATTLE Aldo to be the
>same Aldo in
>> CONQUEST, not realizing when they wrote the script that Aldo was
>changed
>> from a gorilla in the script to a chimp in the movie and most of
>his scenes
>> were dropped. The Conquest script has a scene (dropped in the
>movie) where
>> a human shouts "No Aldo No!" at Aldo, and so when we hear the
>Teacher
>> in BATTLE saying the same thing to Aldo we were supposed to be
>reminded of
>> Aldo's treatment in CONQUEST, giving Aldo more background and depth.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> I agree that Dehn was sloppy in places. But I think that he
intentionally
> put a lot of Christ parallels into ESCAPE. I am less sure about
CONQUEST
> but Patrick is starting to convince me there too. I think the
Corringtons
> picked up on those earlier parallels and in BATTLE developed the
concept of
> Caesar as Christ like figure very well. I also think that Dehn
later dumbed
> down and made the Corrington's BATTLE script harder to understand
than it was
> supposed to be, although Dehn did polish up the dialog. I'm not
sure
> I agree that all of the parallels Patrick mentions earlier were
intentional,
> but he makes a good case. I am convinced there are lots of
intentional
> parallels of Caesar/Christ, put in by both the Corringtons and Dehn.
>
> -Tom
>
>

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> Aldo in CONQUEST is the chimp the Nazi policemen beat up before
Caesar
> shouts at them. In the script used in the Marvel adaptation Aldo
starts
> acting up because a striking waiter throws a rock at him. That
happens
> because the waiter mistakes Aldo for a scab slave waiter instead of
the
> messenger gorilla he was.

> --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > Actually, I think that one cross country migration is nonsensical,
> but
> > two migrations (mutants & ape city) starting AND ENDING at the same
> place
> > on the other side of the continent stretches things beyond all
> bounds
> > of credibility.
>
> True, its just not believable that the mutants treked cross country
> with a nuclear missile in tow. While I see the TV series as a totally
> seperate universe,if you do want to fit it in with the movies, I can
> believe that some ape pioneers and explorers journeyed from Ape City
> on the east coast to found Central City in the southwest. Maybe these
> were right-wing Apes that didn't like that humans were treated as
> equals in the city Caeser had founded. While I don't subscribe to
> this theory at least it's more credible.

> I think that IF THERE IS A VALID REASON, then it IS believable that
> the Mutants would trek across the North American continent

> instrument of their God" in tow. Quite possibly, their reasons for
> uprooting from Breck/Kolp's city (in California--my scenario) to go

> the New York area might very well be similar to the reasons given
> regarding the removal/disappearance of the Ark of the Covenant.

> the paucity of information regarding the doings of the Mendez
> community between BATTLE and BENEATH, then the nearly 2000 year-
> interim affords plenty of room for speculation as to what happened

> only to the Bomb but also to the community of deranged telepaths

> worship the damned thing.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 3-18-2002

> In a message dated 3/14/02 7:12:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:

> OK But why does the Breck/Kolp city have to be on the West Coast?
> What in either film leads you to that conclusion?
> Plus the distances in the bible regarding the Ark are only a few
> hundred mile not thousands. By that measure it would be like the
> mutants moving from Philly to New York.

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles


> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > Serials and "B" movies were the TV of their day. Just as TV has
> always been merchandised. But one-shot movies weren't merchandised as
> much as they started to be with "Dr. Dolittle". - - -
> Jeff
> >
> Yeah those lugheads at Disney didn't do any mechandising for Mary
> Poppins since that was a one-shot. What a missed opportunity!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 10:55 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] re: And now for something completely
different!


> >
> >Since we have some new members to the group, I was wondering if anyone
new
> >here is an APES collector? Others here know that I have many original
APES
> >posters, since I've been collecting since the '70s. I also have the
original
> >Topps cards from PLANET and the TV series, and I have the Inkworks cards
from
> >a few years ago and, yes, I even bought the Topps cards to the new piece
of
> >crap. I have stills and lobby cards from the films, lots of mags (Famous
> >Monsters, Castle of Frankenstein, Cinefantastic) that had features on the
> >movies. I have all the pressbooks and heralds. And in recent years I've
> >collect the Hasbro figures from the original series and most of the
Medicoms.
> > I also have a couple cool models of the Icarus spaceship.
> >
>
> My favorite apes collectables are the Marvel apes magazines. I only
started
> buying these half way through their run and didn't get a complete set
until the
> 1980's. The best thing about them is the huge set of articles and
interviews
> you can't find anywhere else. The next best thing are the marvel
adaptations
> of the movie scripts. By reading them you notice what was left out of the
> movies. e.g. In the PLANET script when Taylor claims to be from another
> planet Dr. Zaius asks "Then why do we both speak the same language?".
>
> My next favorite ape collectables are the Medicom Kubricks, and then
> the 6" Medicoms. The Kubricks have cool accessories, and you can swap
> heads to make new chars such as Astronaut Brent. Plus the Kubricks
> have 4 extra characters not in the 6" Medicoms. (Julius, Brent, mutant
> soldier, and Mendez 26). As for the 6" Medicoms, I've been waiting for
them
> my whole life. I spent a fortune collecting the whole set and the
Kubricks.
>
> I also have some of the comics, including the 1970 Gold Key Beneath
adaptation,
> and both sets of Hasbro figures.
>
> -Tom
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 10:32 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: TV show issues


>
> ><But Virden and Burke seem to carry this pacifism to an extreme. Not
only
> >do they not carry weapons, they have prevented both a coup (Up Above
> >the World So High) and a civil war (The Liberator ??) against the ape
regime.
> >In the short term it is clear that Zaius and Urko are better off having
> >Virden and Burke running around preventing coups and civil wars against
them.>
> >
> >Actually, in the Liberator they encouraged the humans to rebel against
> capturing
> > human slaves for the apes. They offered to help resist the apes.
> >
>
> It was hard to tell if Virden and Burke in the Liberator opposed any
> killing of apes or merely opposed the methods (poison gas bombs). But,
> why did they stop the chimp in Up Above the World So High from bombing
> the High Council and Urko's military headquarters? In fact they never
> considered not stopping her. Again that brings up the question: Were
> they right or were they too pacifistic?
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
It's actually the same thing. They don't want this civilization to
start down the long road of weapons of mass destruction. In "The
Liberator", Virdon makes a speech that connects the gas bombs to atom
bombs ("We've been there..when you use those, no one wins"). I guess a
better example is "The Tyrant", where they try to stop the
assasination of Urko. They inadvertently put it into motion but you
might wonder why they would save someone who wants them dead. I guess
they have a conscience. Taylor has the same decision at the end of
"Beneath" and chooses differently.
- - Jeff

*** Obviously, Urko is not exactly friendly toward the Fugitives, but
there's no indication that Urko acquired his position via
assassination, which is something that Aboro is NOT above doing.
Aboro--as an antagonist--would be even more ruthless than Urko; and,
given the fact that Urko was to be assassinated by a Human--who would
later be killed--the snowballing of violence against Humans would be
far more devastating not only to Virdon, Burke and Galen, but also to
the oppressed humans dwelling precariously amongst their Ape lords and
masters.
Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 3-19-2002

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 12:18 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Caesar the Saviour


>
> Great post Patrick! In the past I've always agreed with Rory instead of
> Patrick, but this time I agree (!!) with nearly everything Patrick says.
> I have said before that I think Caesar was meant to be a Christ like
figure
> who purpose was to save the earth. By saving us from Aldo's original sin
> he literally saves the earth itself and everyone on it. I see lots of
> parallels with Caesar and Christ, but Patrick has pointed out things
> I hadn't noticed before, like Caesars "death" and resurrection in
CONQUEST.
>
> One things I would like to point out in ESCAPE is that three of the
characters
> (Amando, Dr. Hasslein, and the President) openly wonder whether they are
> doing God's will or not in relation to Caesar. The President also wonders
> if history will compare him with Herod.
>
> I also see the apes movies as an "epic saga", and not just a film series
> like James Bond. That is, the story as a whole is much greater than the
> sum of the individual stories. There is a lot more going on in the five
> movies than the casual viewer realizes. Compare POTA to Gulliver's
Travels,
> Babylon 5, or Animal Farm, not Tarzan or Frankenstein.
>
> >movies are a film series just like the James Bond or Frankenstein or
> >Tarzan movies. They're not a serial, they're not a saga.
> >
> >-- Rory
> >
> >***I beg to differ. Paul Dehn was the primary architect of the post-
> >PLANET sequels. Granted, he hadn't thought to write ESCAPE when he was
> >writing PLANET OF THE APES REVISITED (i.e. BENEATH), but as he
> >continued on, writing ESCAPE and then CONQUEST and the early version
> >of BATTLE, he gave the "series" a connective thread that any student
> >of mythic literature should be able to appreciate--and that
> >"connective thread" is the character CAESAR.
> >The 4 film sequels--all told--contain the pattern of an epic saga of
> >the quintessential epic hero, the son of Zira and Cornelius. The
> >traits this pattern follows are easily compared with prior bearers of
> >the "heroic pattern".
> >1.) The Hero has a miraculous conception: Caesar/Baby Milo is
> >conceived in the Future (in 3955), chronologically AFTER his birth in
> >1973; the BATTLE Lawgiver preaches that he had been "sent by God" in
> >order to save his people; compare this to the "mission" given to
>
> Notice that the Lawgiver doesn't say God sent the "apes" a saviour.
> He says that God sent the "world" a saviour. Which was literally what
> he saved. Caesar's purpose was to save not just the apes but the
> humans too.
>
> -Tom
>
>
> >Jesus, the divine role Aeneas was to play (in Virgil's AENEID), etc.
> >We know that Zira was pregnant during BENEATH, because she
> >specifically mentions that "at least OUR CHILD, WHEN HE'S BORN, won't
> >be breast-fed on bile!"
> >2.) The Hero would have an endangered life before/during/after the
> >time of his birth: compare the attempts on his life by Dr. Hasslein,
> >etc. with those against Moses and Jesus, and against Zeus in Greek
> >myth.
> >3.) When the Hero "comes of age", he fulfils the purpose of his
> >"advent"--to be a "savior" to his people. EVERY epic hero accomplishes
> >this.
> >4.) The Hero undergoes a symbolic/literal "death"; Caesar is
> >"electrocuted" on Kolp's order... yet he lives. Also, Caesar makes a
> >Descent into the Underworld, into Hell, in BATTLE. "This is the "hell"
> >our forefathers told of..." says MacDonald prior to their entering
> >into the subterranean depths of the nuked-out city Breck once ruled.
> >5.) The Hero communes with the soul of his Father, or an important
> >Ancestor during his trip to the Underworld, in order to learn about
> >the Fate of his people; think of Aeneas seeing the soul of his father
> >Anchises in Book VI of the AENEID and seeing the procession of the
> >future Emperors of Rome (culminating in Augustus), or Jesus going to
> >"the right hand of the Father" after his Death. In BATTLE, Dehn has
> >Caesar ingeniously descending into a sci-fi version of "hell", and
> >learning about the fate of the world from the Voices of his deceased
> >Mother and Father (their "ghosts" can actually impart Knowledge to
> >him).
> >
> >Paul Dehn was not just a screenwriter. He was also a poet (I have yet
> >to read any of his poetry--his works are out of print, dammit!). As a
> >poet, Dehn knew enough about the ancient pattern of the Epic to enfuse
> >it into his PLANET sequels.
> >The PLANET OF THE APES movies IS a Saga. The Epic story of Caesar (re-
> >told some seven centuries after the fact by a "Lawgiver") is the glue
> >that holds it all together.
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 11:18 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline


> >
> >Umm, what about the dial telephone???
> >
> >--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't think we have to assume that New York City was destroyed in
> >the 20th
> >> century. Remember that when BENEATH was written and filmed, they
> >had no idea
> >> ESCAPE was going to be made, so we shouldn't let what was revealed
> >in ESCAPE
> >> dictate how we think about BENEATH. The only thing in NYC ruins in
> >BENEATH
> >> that possibly dates its destruction as in the 20th century is the
> >bus seen
>
>
> I have to agree. In particular, the dial telephone is proof positive that
> the ruins of NYC in BENEATH were from the 20th century. In addition to
that
> we also have clues in PLANET, and even in ESCAPE, that the destruction in
the
> original timeline was, like altered BATTLE timeline, also in the 20th
century.
> In PLANET Cornilius dates the human artifacts as being 2000 years old. In
> ESCAPE Cornilius contradicts himself, saying that the apes were slaves for
> centuries, but also saying they have spoken Engligh for 2000 years. Maybe
he
> just didn't have good information. Also, the Aldo in BATTLE was intended
by
> the writers to be the same original Aldo mentioned in ESCAPE, which is why
> the movie makes much more sense that way.
>
> -Tom
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 3:46 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] re: Aldo - the one who said "NO"


> >
> >What is your evidence that the Aldo in Battle was intended by the writers
to
> >be the same original Aldo mentioned in ESCAPE, and how would this make
more
> >sense?
> >
>
> In the version of the (Corrington) BATTLE script used in the Marvel
> adaptation, Caesar is listening to Cornelius talk. He realizes he needs
> to change the future to stop the apocalypse in BENEATH, but says he
doesn't
> have any idea exactly what he needs to change. Then he hears Cornelius
> explicitly mention Aldo, and suddenly realizes what he needs to change.
> i.e. He needs to stop Aldo from taking over and becoming the apes leader
> he was originally instead of Caesar. I checked this in my copy of the
final
> BATTLE script. Aldo's explicit mention was removed in a (post Corrington)
> revision (during Dec 20-27 1972), making BATTLE harder to understand. If
you
> look at the appropriate page in that version of the script there was an
> erasure/whiteout of mentioning Aldo's name.
>
> Aldo being the ape leader in the original timeline fits in perfectly with
> the altered timeline, why the Lawgiver morphed from conservative bigot in
> PLANET into enlightened liberal in BATTLE, and Caesar as a Christlike
figure
> saving the world from the destruction in BENEATH. It also ties into some
> political satire in BATTLE about revolutions. About 6 months ago I posted
> a 3 part essay of BATTLE that explains this much better.
>
> I believe the Corringtons also intended the BATTLE Aldo to be the same
Aldo in
> CONQUEST, not realizing when they wrote the script that Aldo was changed
> from a gorilla in the script to a chimp in the movie and most of his
scenes
> were dropped. The Conquest script has a scene (dropped in the movie)
where
> a human shouts "No Aldo No!" at Aldo, and so when we hear the Teacher
> in BATTLE saying the same thing to Aldo we were supposed to be reminded of
> Aldo's treatment in CONQUEST, giving Aldo more background and depth.
>
> -Tom
>

> It's actually the same thing. They don't want this civilization to start
>down the long road of weapons of mass destruction. In "The Liberator",
>Virdon makes a speech that connects the gas bombs to atom bombs ("We've been
>there..when you use those, no one wins").

>I guess a better example is "The
>Tyrant", where they try to stop the assasination of Urko. They inadvertently
>put it into motion but you might wonder why they would save someone who
>wants them dead. I guess they have a conscience. Taylor has the same

>
>I'm still confused, if Aldo was the chimp beaten up in the beginning
>of the film; who was the 'Ape with Chain' listed in the credits. I've
>included the cast list from the Internet Movie Database for
>reference.
>
>Cast (in credits order) verified as complete
>Roddy McDowall .... Caesar
>Don Murray .... Governor Breck
>Natalie Trundy .... Lisa
>Hari Rhodes .... MacDonald
>Severn Darden .... Kolp, State Security Chief Inspector
>Lou Wagner .... Busboy
>John Randolph .... Commission Chairman
>Asa Maynor .... Mrs. Riley
>H.M. Wynant .... Inspector Hoskyns
>David Chow .... Aldo
>Buck Kartalian .... Frank (Gorilla)
>John Dennis (I) .... Policeman
>Paul Comi .... 2nd Policeman
>Gordon Jump .... Auctioneer
>Dick Spangler .... Announcer
>Joyce Haber .... Zelda
>Hector Soucy .... Ape With Chain
>Ricardo Montalban .... Armando

>
>While you may be right about the parallels to Christ, remember Dehn
>is quoted as saying his saw the whole thing as one big time circle.

>Thus, whether Ceaser is a Christ figure or not, he doesn't save the
>world from blowing up in the 40th Century.

>fans; it works for me and for the project I'm working on, and it's
>consistent with the details given in the "canon" of 5 films and 14 TV
>episodes. And that's all it NEEDS to be, as far as I'm concerned.
>

>
> Yeah, I'm kinda bored with the Medicoms, but the Kubricks are great. And
>they've got vehicles like the wagon, horses. And now American companies are
>copying them, doing licenses that way. There's going to be KISS, Austin
>Powers and Simpsons non-Kubricks soon. - -
>Jeff
>

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> Don't know. Maybe his scene was cut? BATTLE still listed a credit
> for "Doctor".
>
>
> >
> >I'm still confused, if Aldo was the chimp beaten up in the
beginning
> >of the film; who was the 'Ape with Chain' listed in the credits.
I've
> >included the cast list from the Internet Movie Database for
> >reference.
> >
> >Cast (in credits order) verified as complete
> >Roddy McDowall .... Caesar
> >Don Murray .... Governor Breck
> >Natalie Trundy .... Lisa
> >Hari Rhodes .... MacDonald
> >Severn Darden .... Kolp, State Security Chief Inspector
> >Lou Wagner .... Busboy
> >John Randolph .... Commission Chairman
> >Asa Maynor .... Mrs. Riley
> >H.M. Wynant .... Inspector Hoskyns
> >David Chow .... Aldo
> >Buck Kartalian .... Frank (Gorilla)
> >John Dennis (I) .... Policeman
> >Paul Comi .... 2nd Policeman
> >Gordon Jump .... Auctioneer
> >Dick Spangler .... Announcer
> >Joyce Haber .... Zelda
> >Hector Soucy .... Ape With Chain
> >Ricardo Montalban .... Armando
>
>
>

> I think Dehn had different intentions at different times.

> He does if BATTLE was the Corringtons story. Which it was,

> the Writers Guild and the Greene and Russo books.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> I think during the riot there must have been an ape with a chain,
using it as
> a weapon. I'm sure it got cut.
>
> -- Rory

> *** Breck's city doesn't HAVE to be on the West Coast, or the East
> Coast. Hell, it COULD be in the Gulf of Mexico, or even in Hudson

> In the film CONQUEST we are only told that it is "North America,

> and it sure would've been nice of them to narrow that down a tad!
>
> The reason that I--for the sake of the novel I'm working on--have
> chosen southern California for the location of Breck's city, has to

> with the fact that the "saga" I'm trying to (re-)tell (with extra
> added original material developed by me) comprises the 5 films AND

> 14 TV episodes. In order to make the TV show data "mesh" with the

> series' data, I have to come up with an intermediate history

> the events of BATTLE (both the main story and the Lawgiver "frame"
> sequence) and the events of the TV show in 3085, and that history
> should delve into the continuity of the initially peaceful post-

> ape-and-human society and its degeneration into the Ape-dominant
> society we see on the TV show. The ape culture in BATTLE has

> styles that are carried over into the 3085 time, which indicates

> despite the 1000+ years separating the time of Caesar and the time

> Urko, that there is a "cultural conservatism" factor involved.
> Frankly, I don't buy the idea that a Caesar-community on the OTHER
> side of the continent could develop specific clothing styles that
> another entirely isolated community (on the West coast, the TV

> just "coincidentally" happened also to develop--not just the color-
> coding (i.e. Green-and-Brown for Chimpanzees, Orange-and-Brown for
> Orangutans, and Purple-and-Black for Gorillas) but also the GLYPH
> symbols, which clearly represent some form of language--if not an
> alphabetic one, perhaps a syllabary or pictographic one.
> If the same clothing styles exist in southern California in 3085,

> it is more probable than not that the society there inherited it

> ancestors who dwelt in the same area. Sure, descendants of Caesar's
> community COULD have migrated westwards, traveling from an East

> area towards California. Sure, it's possible--I'll not deny it. But

> we accept the TV show as "canon" (i.e. as "mesh-able" with the film
> series--which some out there DON'T agree with, despite my

> for it), then we should figure that it's more likely that the Chief
> Councillor Zaius of 3085 (in southern California) is a direct

> of Dr. Zaius from PLANET/BENEATH (in the NY/NJ area), since BOTH of
> them are political authority figures who possess the hidden truth
> about the pre-Simian superior culture of Humans who destroyed
> themselves in a devastating war. The PLANET Zaius had to have been
> "initiated" into the hidden/"occult" Knowledge of Man's earlier
> civilization; that Knowledge HAD to have been handed down secretly,
> from either Father-to-Son or from "Grand Master"-to-"Acolyte" (as

> secret society, like the Freemasons, or the Odd Fellows, or "Skull

> Bones"). Most probably, the "secret society" keeping this Knowledge
> hidden from the Masses would be kept "in family" (just as all the
> "Bush" clan seem to be privileged members, sort of a political

> with non-standard affiliations--the Bushes (George, George W., and

> too, I believe) are all "Skull & Bones" Society members).
> If the TV Zaius is in California (which he IS), and the PLANET

> is near NY/NJ (which he IS), then at some point AFTER 3085 and

> 3955, there had to be a migration EASTWARD, from California to

> If you don't want to consider the TV show "canon" with the movies,
> well, fine; I don't care what anyone else prefers; for the sake of

> novel-in-progress, the TV show IS "canon", and this necessitates a
> California/3085-to-NY/3955 migration of the "House of Zaius".
> What sorts of things might prompt a California-based society to

> and migrate Eastward? Any number of things:
> 1.) A meteor/comet/asteroid strike in the Pacific: it wipes out
> everything near the coast. Zaius--in Central City (some distance

> from the Ocean)--survives, and perhaps leads the mass-migration

> from the monstrous Sea...
> 2.) A race war breaks out, pitting Ape against Human--and, perhaps,
> either or both against the subterranean Mendez community of

> telepaths/"mind-f*ckers"...
> 3.) A plague, perhaps brought on by a mutated virus from vermin
> dwelling near one of the many nuked-out locales on the borders of

> inhabited areas dominated by Central City, quickly spreads and

> off not just humans and horses, but also apes; just as the Black
> Plague depopulated large areas of Europe during the Middle Ages,
> causing not only large-scale migrations but also pogroms against

> and Gypsies (thought to have been purposely spreading Disease,
> according to some people back then who didn't know any better);
> similarly, a massive outbreak of "the Plague" would probably be yet
> another catalyst for bigoted Apes to blame Humans.
> Those are just 3 possible reasons for a mass-migration of the Zaius-
> led community of Apes; the same reasons could ALSO explain, in

> the migration of the Mendez community away from their "southern
> California" locale--so that they end up in a "Forbidden Zone"

> to the area that Zaius' group establishes itself in.
>
> In addition, there is one other element in particular that makes me
> choose southern California as the location of Breck's city: in the
> promotional material that Fox cooked up for CONQUEST, they produced

> mock-newspaper called the "San Simian Sentinel" (in part, I

> because there was a premier of the film at the Hearst Castle [I

> but I'm not absolutely certain], which is called "San Simeon"--as

> nearby town on the Pacific coast, about halfway between San

> and Los Angeles. As a tribute to this little-known "factoid"

> CONQUEST, I've decided to place "my" location for

> city on the site of the two towns SAN SIMEON and CAMBRIA,

> city subsuming the other two (which then lie within the "city

> of Breck's arcopolis). Rather than give this arcopolis a different
> name, I've elected to have it named "San Simeon" (and it's local
> newspaper will be the "San Simeon Sentinel").
> This "arcopolis"/"arcology" will be designed for a similar purpose

> that given in the novel OATH OF FEALTY (by Larry Niven and ESCAPE-
> novelizer Jerry Pournelle): there are those in Government and

> who know that Humanity must--one day--go to the Stars, and a

> precursor to such a Voyage is the CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT of a self-
> sufficient Habitat. The arcopolis of "Todos Santos" in the Niven/
> Pournelle novel is designed to be maximally efficient, a sort of
> blueprint for a huge "generation-ship" which would be needed to
> transfer a sizable population across Space; the U.S. Government--in
> post-ESCAPE, post-Pet Plague, America--sets aside certain areas for
> "wealthy industrialists" to develop, with the same long-term goal
> (i.e. Space Colonization), and Breck is one of those wealthy Trump-
> like "movers and shakers". It is believed--due to the CIA/NSA
> interrogation of Cornelius and Zira--that after the 1983 Plague

> will be some 500 years left for America to develop its "long term"
> project (i.e. "arcopolis"-to-"orbital/lunar/Mars/asteroid belt
> colonies"-to-"interstellar generation ship"-to-"Star colonies")...

> they were purposely misled by Cornelius' (and Zira's) intentional
> changing of "years" to "centuries" (which contradicts his earlier
> testimony regarding his people speaking English for 2000 years).

> instead of investing trillions of dollars into Space colonization
> (post-1983), the U.S. takes its time, under the mistaken belief

> they have 500 years or so in which to extend their influence beyond
> the bounds of the Solar System.
> One other reason for choosing to have the

> at San Simeon has to do with the NAME. "San Simeon" means "Saint
> Simeon/Simon" and the apostle Peter was also called "Simon Peter"--

> "Rock" upon which Christ built his Church (Peter's

> literally means "Rock"). Remembering the location of the ALPHA-

> bomb in BENEATH (in St. Patrick's Cathedral), and knowing that Kolp
> did NOT keep it in that later location, it seemed reasonable to me
> that from a symbolic standpoint the Bomb should first have been set

> in a place that is reminiscent of the "Rock"/foundation of the
> Christian church (i.e. Simon Peter = St. Simeon = San Simeon),

> that the religious ceremonies used by Mendez' descendants will be a
> grotesque parody of the Roman Catholic Mass. Keep in mind, also,

> in Vatican City--the center of Roman Catholicism--there is St.

> Basilica (it is "prophesied" in the Prophecies of Malachy that the
> bones of St. Peter himself will be found sometime soon in the
> Catacombs under Rome), and it is a particular dogma of Catholicism
> that Christ made Peter the first "pope", the source of their
> "authority" in ecclesiastical matters. So it makes sense, at least
> allegorically, for the Bomb God to first be established in a place
> that has some sort of connection with the Christ-Peter-Rome
> establishment in the religion from which Mendez' group takes its
> "form".
> Rory might not dig my scenario, or my reasonings for it, but that's
> okay with me. I'm not declaring my scenario to be a MUST for all

> fans; it works for me and for the project I'm working on, and it's
> consistent with the details given in the "canon" of 5 films and 14

> episodes. And that's all it NEEDS to be, as far as I'm concerned.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 3-19-2002

> Maybe they were genetically altered and could speak English when

> slaves. That makes more sense then them just starting to talk in
> - - - Jeff

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> a) Disney is different; they'd merchandise their uncles if they
could. I'm
> talking about the real world. Plus Disney movies are never really
one-shots;
> they've got theme parks and continuing shows on TV to keep interest
in their
> movies
>
> b) exactly how much "Poppins" merch was there the year it came
out? Not
> since, but that year. I bet "Dolittle" beat
> - - - Jeff

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> My assumption is that it's that way because those who developed the
TV series
> -- were dummies!!
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> When Caesar says, "I know what it is I want to change" I think of
Aldo,
> because he's obviously the roadblock to peace. So it still kinda
works.
> Maybe they took it out to be more ambiguous, like taking out the
bomb.
> Letting people decide for themselves what needs to be
> - - - Jeff

>From: "Sammo Law" <sammo_of_borg@...>
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] DVDs in April
>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 16:20:42 -0600
>

>From: Haristas@...
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] DVDs in April
>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:22:39 EST
>
>In a message dated 3/19/02 5:23:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>sammo_of_borg@... writes:
>
>
> > Just passing the info on that my DVDs won't be ready until April 30th.
>While
> >
> > the POTA 2001 Exclusives are ready and the UNcut Battle for the Planet
>of
> > the Apes is ready as well. Labeling, Shipping and the POTA DVD toons are
> > not. So we're looking at another 30 days before I'll be ready.
>
>I really don't care all that much about labels, Al. Any possibly of a
>bare-bones version?
>
>-- Rory

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:33 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar the Saviour


> >
> >While you may be right about the parallels to Christ, remember Dehn
> >is quoted as saying his saw the whole thing as one big time circle.
>
> He said that about BATTLE but ESCAPE certainly doesn't point to a circle
> because Cornelius mentions "Aldo", not "Milo" or "Caesar". I think Dehn
> had different intentions at different times.
>
>
> >Thus, whether Ceaser is a Christ figure or not, he doesn't save the
> >world from blowing up in the 40th Century.
>
> He does if BATTLE was the Corringtons story. Which it was, according to
> the Writers Guild and the Greene and Russo books. The Corringtons wrote
> BATTLE as the story of Caesar as a christ like figure saving the world.
> The Corringtons also did an excellent job of BATTLE building upon the
> continuity of the earlier movies. In order for Dehn to credibly change
> their story into a circular timeline he would had to make Aldo kill
> Caesar, and more importantly, rip out the Lawgiver scene entirely. For
> whatever reason Dehn didn't or couldn't make those changes.
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:44 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Kubricks


> >
> > Yeah, I'm kinda bored with the Medicoms, but the Kubricks are great.
And
> >they've got vehicles like the wagon, horses. And now American companies
are
> >copying them, doing licenses that way. There's going to be KISS, Austin
> >Powers and Simpsons non-Kubricks
soon. - -
> >Jeff
> >
>
> Are they going to be in scale with the 2" Kubicks? I liked the POTA
Kubricks
> so much I also bought the Singapore bootleg Star Wars Kubricks too. At
one
> time I had a whole village of POTA Kubricks set up complete with Ape City,
> Forbidden Zone, and Mutant area. The Kubricks are cool! I especially
> like the little Icarus that comes with the ESCAPE set.
>
> -Tom
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:02 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline


> Sorry I still don't think it makes any sense. Sounds like you made up
> your mind going in and have concocted a lot of conveluted theories to
> make it work.
> The TV series can easily mesh with the films with a simple westward
> migration of apes from Caeser's City rather than a Mutant and Ape
> migration eastward. The clothing styles for the apes in Planet and
> Beneath are the same as in Battle so that arguement is specious.
> The "San Simian Sentinal" was the Herald produced for Battle not
> Conquest. And unlike the Herald from the other films it doesn't
> pretend to be a Newspaper from within the world of the film. It is
> all promotional articles about the making of Battle with interviews
> of Arthur Jacobs and J. Lee Thompson.
> If you want to use the Heralds as an indication; look at the on for
> Conquest. It is called "Future News" and its masthead closely
> resembles the masthead of the 'Daily News' in New York.
> Also, rememeber Caeser's city in Battle as well as the city in Planet
> & Beneath was always refered to as "Ape City" while the city in the
> TV series was called "Central City". My assumuption is that the
> writers of the TV series moved the action to this west coast Ape
> settlement so as not to interfer with the timeline of the films.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> wrote:
> > *** Breck's city doesn't HAVE to be on the West Coast, or the East
> > Coast. Hell, it COULD be in the Gulf of Mexico, or even in Hudson
> Bay!
> > In the film CONQUEST we are only told that it is "North America,
> 1991"
> > and it sure would've been nice of them to narrow that down a tad!
> >
> > The reason that I--for the sake of the novel I'm working on--have
> > chosen southern California for the location of Breck's city, has to
> do
> > with the fact that the "saga" I'm trying to (re-)tell (with extra
> > added original material developed by me) comprises the 5 films AND
> the
> > 14 TV episodes. In order to make the TV show data "mesh" with the
> film
> > series' data, I have to come up with an intermediate history
> between
> > the events of BATTLE (both the main story and the Lawgiver "frame"
> > sequence) and the events of the TV show in 3085, and that history
> > should delve into the continuity of the initially peaceful post-
> BATTLE
> > ape-and-human society and its degeneration into the Ape-dominant
> > society we see on the TV show. The ape culture in BATTLE has
> clothing
> > styles that are carried over into the 3085 time, which indicates
> that
> > despite the 1000+ years separating the time of Caesar and the time
> of
> > Urko, that there is a "cultural conservatism" factor involved.
> > Frankly, I don't buy the idea that a Caesar-community on the OTHER
> > side of the continent could develop specific clothing styles that
> > another entirely isolated community (on the West coast, the TV
> show)
> > just "coincidentally" happened also to develop--not just the color-
> > coding (i.e. Green-and-Brown for Chimpanzees, Orange-and-Brown for
> > Orangutans, and Purple-and-Black for Gorillas) but also the GLYPH
> > symbols, which clearly represent some form of language--if not an
> > alphabetic one, perhaps a syllabary or pictographic one.
> > If the same clothing styles exist in southern California in 3085,
> then
> > it is more probable than not that the society there inherited it
> from
> > ancestors who dwelt in the same area. Sure, descendants of Caesar's
> > community COULD have migrated westwards, traveling from an East
> coast
> > area towards California. Sure, it's possible--I'll not deny it. But
> if
> > we accept the TV show as "canon" (i.e. as "mesh-able" with the film
> > series--which some out there DON'T agree with, despite my
> predilection
> > for it), then we should figure that it's more likely that the Chief
> > Councillor Zaius of 3085 (in southern California) is a direct
> ancestor
> > of Dr. Zaius from PLANET/BENEATH (in the NY/NJ area), since BOTH of
> > them are political authority figures who possess the hidden truth
> > about the pre-Simian superior culture of Humans who destroyed
> > themselves in a devastating war. The PLANET Zaius had to have been
> > "initiated" into the hidden/"occult" Knowledge of Man's earlier
> > civilization; that Knowledge HAD to have been handed down secretly,
> > from either Father-to-Son or from "Grand Master"-to-"Acolyte" (as
> in a
> > secret society, like the Freemasons, or the Odd Fellows, or "Skull
> &
> > Bones"). Most probably, the "secret society" keeping this Knowledge
> > hidden from the Masses would be kept "in family" (just as all the
> > "Bush" clan seem to be privileged members, sort of a political
> dynasty
> > with non-standard affiliations--the Bushes (George, George W., and
> Jeb
> > too, I believe) are all "Skull & Bones" Society members).
> > If the TV Zaius is in California (which he IS), and the PLANET
> Zaius
> > is near NY/NJ (which he IS), then at some point AFTER 3085 and
> BEFORE
> > 3955, there had to be a migration EASTWARD, from California to
> NY/NJ.
> > If you don't want to consider the TV show "canon" with the movies,
> > well, fine; I don't care what anyone else prefers; for the sake of
> MY
> > novel-in-progress, the TV show IS "canon", and this necessitates a
> > California/3085-to-NY/3955 migration of the "House of Zaius".
> > What sorts of things might prompt a California-based society to
> uproot
> > and migrate Eastward? Any number of things:
> > 1.) A meteor/comet/asteroid strike in the Pacific: it wipes out
> > everything near the coast. Zaius--in Central City (some distance
> away
> > from the Ocean)--survives, and perhaps leads the mass-migration
> away
> > from the monstrous Sea...
> > 2.) A race war breaks out, pitting Ape against Human--and, perhaps,
> > either or both against the subterranean Mendez community of
> burgeoning
> > telepaths/"mind-f*ckers"...
> > 3.) A plague, perhaps brought on by a mutated virus from vermin
> > dwelling near one of the many nuked-out locales on the borders of
> the
> > inhabited areas dominated by Central City, quickly spreads and
> kills
> > off not just humans and horses, but also apes; just as the Black
> > Plague depopulated large areas of Europe during the Middle Ages,
> > causing not only large-scale migrations but also pogroms against
> Jews
> > and Gypsies (thought to have been purposely spreading Disease,
> > according to some people back then who didn't know any better);
> > similarly, a massive outbreak of "the Plague" would probably be yet
> > another catalyst for bigoted Apes to blame Humans.
> > Those are just 3 possible reasons for a mass-migration of the Zaius-
> > led community of Apes; the same reasons could ALSO explain, in
> part,
> > the migration of the Mendez community away from their "southern
> > California" locale--so that they end up in a "Forbidden Zone"
> adjacent
> > to the area that Zaius' group establishes itself in.
> >
> > In addition, there is one other element in particular that makes me
> > choose southern California as the location of Breck's city: in the
> > promotional material that Fox cooked up for CONQUEST, they produced
> a
> > mock-newspaper called the "San Simian Sentinel" (in part, I
> believe,
> > because there was a premier of the film at the Hearst Castle [I
> think,
> > but I'm not absolutely certain], which is called "San Simeon"--as
> is a
> > nearby town on the Pacific coast, about halfway between San
> Francisco
> > and Los Angeles. As a tribute to this little-known "factoid"
> regarding
> > CONQUEST, I've decided to place "my" location for
> Breck's "arcopolis"
> > city on the site of the two towns SAN SIMEON and CAMBRIA,
> his "newer"
> > city subsuming the other two (which then lie within the "city
> limits"
> > of Breck's arcopolis). Rather than give this arcopolis a different
> > name, I've elected to have it named "San Simeon" (and it's local
> > newspaper will be the "San Simeon Sentinel").
> > This "arcopolis"/"arcology" will be designed for a similar purpose
> to
> > that given in the novel OATH OF FEALTY (by Larry Niven and ESCAPE-
> > novelizer Jerry Pournelle): there are those in Government and
> Industry
> > who know that Humanity must--one day--go to the Stars, and a
> necessary
> > precursor to such a Voyage is the CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT of a self-
> > sufficient Habitat. The arcopolis of "Todos Santos" in the Niven/
> > Pournelle novel is designed to be maximally efficient, a sort of
> > blueprint for a huge "generation-ship" which would be needed to
> > transfer a sizable population across Space; the U.S. Government--in
> > post-ESCAPE, post-Pet Plague, America--sets aside certain areas for
> > "wealthy industrialists" to develop, with the same long-term goal
> > (i.e. Space Colonization), and Breck is one of those wealthy Trump-
> > like "movers and shakers". It is believed--due to the CIA/NSA
> > interrogation of Cornelius and Zira--that after the 1983 Plague
> there
> > will be some 500 years left for America to develop its "long term"
> > project (i.e. "arcopolis"-to-"orbital/lunar/Mars/asteroid belt
> > colonies"-to-"interstellar generation ship"-to-"Star colonies")...
> but
> > they were purposely misled by Cornelius' (and Zira's) intentional
> > changing of "years" to "centuries" (which contradicts his earlier
> > testimony regarding his people speaking English for 2000 years).
> So,
> > instead of investing trillions of dollars into Space colonization
> > (post-1983), the U.S. takes its time, under the mistaken belief
> that
> > they have 500 years or so in which to extend their influence beyond
> > the bounds of the Solar System.
> > One other reason for choosing to have the
> CONQUEST/BATTLE "arcopolis"
> > at San Simeon has to do with the NAME. "San Simeon" means "Saint
> > Simeon/Simon" and the apostle Peter was also called "Simon Peter"--
> the
> > "Rock" upon which Christ built his Church (Peter's
> nickname, "Cephas",
> > literally means "Rock"). Remembering the location of the ALPHA-
> OMEGA
> > bomb in BENEATH (in St. Patrick's Cathedral), and knowing that Kolp
> > did NOT keep it in that later location, it seemed reasonable to me
> > that from a symbolic standpoint the Bomb should first have been set
> up
> > in a place that is reminiscent of the "Rock"/foundation of the
> > Christian church (i.e. Simon Peter = St. Simeon = San Simeon),
> given
> > that the religious ceremonies used by Mendez' descendants will be a
> > grotesque parody of the Roman Catholic Mass. Keep in mind, also,
> that
> > in Vatican City--the center of Roman Catholicism--there is St.
> Peter's
> > Basilica (it is "prophesied" in the Prophecies of Malachy that the
> > bones of St. Peter himself will be found sometime soon in the
> > Catacombs under Rome), and it is a particular dogma of Catholicism
> > that Christ made Peter the first "pope", the source of their
> > "authority" in ecclesiastical matters. So it makes sense, at least
> > allegorically, for the Bomb God to first be established in a place
> > that has some sort of connection with the Christ-Peter-Rome
> > establishment in the religion from which Mendez' group takes its
> > "form".
> > Rory might not dig my scenario, or my reasonings for it, but that's
> > okay with me. I'm not declaring my scenario to be a MUST for all
> POTA
> > fans; it works for me and for the project I'm working on, and it's
> > consistent with the details given in the "canon" of 5 films and 14
> TV
> > episodes. And that's all it NEEDS to be, as far as I'm concerned.
> >
> > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > EARTH-TIME 3-19-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Sammo Law

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 4:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline

why would the humans do that if they were afraid of being conquered?

-Sammo_of_Borg

>From: "james611102"

>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com

>To: pota@yahoogroups.com

>Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline

>Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:20:46 -0000

>

>--- In pota@y..., wrote:

> > Maybe they were genetically altered and could speak English when

>they were

> > slaves. That makes more sense then them just starting to talk in

> > - - - Jeff

>That makes a lot of sense to me.

>

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles


> I really don't remember exact items but I remember my sister
> collecting stuff. I don't really remember any items for Dolittle
> either. I do remember a lot of stuff for Chitty Chitty Bang Bang,
> which came out in 1968, including a really cool dye cast model of the
> car with retractable wings.
> The truth is merchandising of movies and TV shows has been around as
> long as they have been. It didn't start with Dolittle and Apes. Nor
> did they take it to a new level as you suggest. It was done with
> radio shows, comics and serials in the 30s & 40s and TV shows in the
> 50s & 60s. Look at everything that has been produced for properties
> like Flash Gordon to Star Trek to James Bond and others.
> The film that is considered to have really revolutionized
> mechandising is Star Wars. Because for the first time the merchandise
> made more money than the film did.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > a) Disney is different; they'd merchandise their uncles if they
> could. I'm
> > talking about the real world. Plus Disney movies are never really
> one-shots;
> > they've got theme parks and continuing shows on TV to keep interest
> in their
> > movies
> >
> > b) exactly how much "Poppins" merch was there the year it came
> out? Not
> > since, but that year. I bet "Dolittle" beat
> > - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:38 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline

In a message dated 3/19/02 6:52:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

The clothing styles for the apes in Planet and
Beneath are the same as in Battle so that arguement is specious

Oh, come on, everybody!  The costumes are the same in BATTLE because they couldn't afford a new costume design.  I think it's ridiculous to think that the apes costumes wouldn't evolve from BATTLE to PLANET, which is just another reason why I find BATTLE hard to take seriously.

-- Rory

----- Original Message -----
From: <veetus@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar the Saviour


> That's a good point. Why wasn't Caesar called Aldo in "Conquest" is Dehn
> was so big on a circular timeline? They still used the plague but I think
> that's supposed to mean something that Aldo is sedated and perhaps stopped
> from speaking (didn't get to say "No" like Cornelius said).I still say
> Caesar and his parents changed things. But Jesus loves you,
> - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:33 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar the Saviour
>
>
> > >
> > >While you may be right about the parallels to Christ, remember Dehn
> > >is quoted as saying his saw the whole thing as one big time circle.
> >
> > He said that about BATTLE but ESCAPE certainly doesn't point to a circle
> > because Cornelius mentions "Aldo", not "Milo" or "Caesar". I think Dehn
> > had different intentions at different times.
> >
> >
> > >Thus, whether Ceaser is a Christ figure or not, he doesn't save the
> > >world from blowing up in the 40th Century.
> >
> > He does if BATTLE was the Corringtons story. Which it was, according to
> > the Writers Guild and the Greene and Russo books. The Corringtons wrote
> > BATTLE as the story of Caesar as a christ like figure saving the world.
> > The Corringtons also did an excellent job of BATTLE building upon the
> > continuity of the earlier movies. In order for Dehn to credibly change
> > their story into a circular timeline he would had to make Aldo kill
> > Caesar, and more importantly, rip out the Lawgiver scene entirely. For
> > whatever reason Dehn didn't or couldn't make those changes.
> >
> >
> >

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Kubricks


> Hey Jeff,
>
> I'm glad you like that site. Did you sign up for the updates? Michael does
at least a couple of reviews a week and will email you when a new one goes
up.
>
> Personally I think those Simpsons Blockos are terrible looking. They would
look such much better if the faces were sculpted a la the Apes Kubricks
(which I still haven't gotten yet, but will once they hit the US)
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> "Apes" merch made more money than the films did . It made $100
million
> during the mid-70's (by contrast, "Star Wars" merch made $100
million just
> in 1978!). But like I said, serials, comic books, TV shows are
different;
> that's continuing exposure. And that's over a period of time. It's
different
> than rolling the merch dice on one unproven film. Fox did that
with "Dr. D'
> and lost big time. By the way, the reason Kenner was so hot to
do "Star
> Wars" toys is because they thought it would eventually wind up as a
TV show.
> Fox though so little of the merchandising that they gave the rights
to Lucas
> if he cut his fee. And the sequel rights. Fox gets nothing
for "Star Wars"
> now except a distribution fee. He he
> - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles
>
>
> > I really don't remember exact items but I remember my sister
> > collecting stuff. I don't really remember any items for Dolittle
> > either. I do remember a lot of stuff for Chitty Chitty Bang Bang,
> > which came out in 1968, including a really cool dye cast model of
the
> > car with retractable wings.
> > The truth is merchandising of movies and TV shows has been around
as
> > long as they have been. It didn't start with Dolittle and Apes.
Nor
> > did they take it to a new level as you suggest. It was done with
> > radio shows, comics and serials in the 30s & 40s and TV shows in
the
> > 50s & 60s. Look at everything that has been produced for
properties
> > like Flash Gordon to Star Trek to James Bond and others.
> > The film that is considered to have really revolutionized
> > mechandising is Star Wars. Because for the first time the
merchandise
> > made more money than the film did.
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > a) Disney is different; they'd merchandise their uncles if
they
> > could. I'm
> > > talking about the real world. Plus Disney movies are never
really
> > one-shots;
> > > they've got theme parks and continuing shows on TV to keep
interest
> > in their
> > > movies
> > >
> > > b) exactly how much "Poppins" merch was there the year it came
> > out? Not
> > > since, but that year. I bet "Dolittle" beat
> > > - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> As I've said before, my answer is that Cornelius did some
sketches of their civilization for Armando and Caesar later
remembered and incorporated them into "Battle". That's the only way
to get the same costumes. Works for me. - -
Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haristas@a...
> To: pota@y...
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered
Timeline
>
>
> In a message dated 3/19/02 6:52:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JamesA1102@a... writes:
>
>
>
> The clothing styles for the apes in Planet and
> Beneath are the same as in Battle so that arguement is specious
>
>
> Oh, come on, everybody! The costumes are the same in BATTLE
because they couldn't afford a new costume design. I think it's
ridiculous to think that the apes costumes wouldn't evolve from
BATTLE to PLANET, which is just another reason why I find BATTLE hard
to take seriously.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> That's a good point. Why wasn't Caesar called Aldo in "Conquest"
is Dehn
> was so big on a circular timeline? They still used the plague but I
think
> that's supposed to mean something that Aldo is sedated and perhaps
stopped
> from speaking (didn't get to say "No" like Cornelius said).I still
say
> Caesar and his parents changed things. But Jesus loves you,
> - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Melkor" <melkor@m...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:33 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar the Saviour
>
>
> > >
> > >While you may be right about the parallels to Christ, remember
Dehn
> > >is quoted as saying his saw the whole thing as one big time
circle.
> >
> > He said that about BATTLE but ESCAPE certainly doesn't point to a
circle
> > because Cornelius mentions "Aldo", not "Milo" or "Caesar". I
think Dehn
> > had different intentions at different times.
> >
> >
> > >Thus, whether Ceaser is a Christ figure or not, he doesn't save
the
> > >world from blowing up in the 40th Century.
> >
> > He does if BATTLE was the Corringtons story. Which it was,
according to
> > the Writers Guild and the Greene and Russo books. The
Corringtons wrote
> > BATTLE as the story of Caesar as a christ like figure saving the
world.
> > The Corringtons also did an excellent job of BATTLE building upon
the
> > continuity of the earlier movies. In order for Dehn to credibly
change
> > their story into a circular timeline he would had to make Aldo
kill
> > Caesar, and more importantly, rip out the Lawgiver scene
entirely. For
> > whatever reason Dehn didn't or couldn't make those changes.
> >
> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> We're talking about the history before "Planet" and "Beneath" and
I see it as a separate timeline from "Escape". So the human culture
(which is still around as of 2503, per the TV show) wouldn't have
Cornelius' warning. - -
- Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sammo Law
> To: pota@y...
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 4:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered
Timeline
>
>
>
> why would the humans do that if they were afraid of being
conquered?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Sammo_of_Borg
> >From: "james611102"
> >Reply-To: pota@y...
> >To: pota@y...
> >Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
> >Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 23:20:46 -0000
> >
> >--- In pota@y..., wrote:
> > > Maybe they were genetically altered and could speak English
when
> >they were
> > > slaves. That makes more sense then them just starting to talk
in
> > > - - - Jeff
> >That makes a lot of sense to me.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> In a message dated 3/19/02 8:14:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> sammo_of_borg@h... writes:
>
>
> > why would the humans do that if they were afraid of being

> >
>
> Because man is always messing with things that would best be left

> Remember all that trouble Dr. Frankenstein caused? And how about

> that thought it would be "cool" to split the atom? Sometimes I

> only capable of destruction. I wonder where I get these ideas?
>
> -- Rory

> I never got that one, but I still have my Corgi "Yellow Submarine."
>
> -- Rory

> Mr. R has told me that David Chow was a very arrogant person when

> to him, wanting to take credit for many things. (Although I can't

> what they were.) Anyway, Chow is, we believe, the Asian person who

> chimp makeup put on in the PLANET featurette, he also appears in

> the chimp on the left of the screen when the apes first hear Taylor

> "Get your stinking paws...." He's the chimp making all the facial
> movements. As far as I know he's always been a chimp.
>
> Hari Rhodes was in BATTLE because he was doing something else at

> and Don Murray had had enough monkeying around with CONQUEST.
>
> -- Rory

> Yes, but what does this have to do with David Chow?

>From: LordTZer0@...
>Reply-To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] DVDs in April
>Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 00:10:19 EST
>
>
> > Like everyone else
> > here, I have a fulltime job.
>
>Job? What's that?

> Almost-elected? Isn't it George W. who wants to do that?
>
> Matt

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles


> Apes mechandise made $100MM?!?! Where are you getting your figures,
> Arther Anderson.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > "Apes" merch made more money than the films did . It made $100
> million
> > during the mid-70's (by contrast, "Star Wars" merch made $100
> million just
> > in 1978!). But like I said, serials, comic books, TV shows are
> different;
> > that's continuing exposure. And that's over a period of time. It's
> different
> > than rolling the merch dice on one unproven film. Fox did that
> with "Dr. D'
> > and lost big time. By the way, the reason Kenner was so hot to
> do "Star
> > Wars" toys is because they thought it would eventually wind up as a
> TV show.
> > Fox though so little of the merchandising that they gave the rights
> to Lucas
> > if he cut his fee. And the sequel rights. Fox gets nothing
> for "Star Wars"
> > now except a distribution fee. He he
> > - - Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> > To: <pota@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles
> >
> >
> > > I really don't remember exact items but I remember my sister
> > > collecting stuff. I don't really remember any items for Dolittle
> > > either. I do remember a lot of stuff for Chitty Chitty Bang Bang,
> > > which came out in 1968, including a really cool dye cast model of
> the
> > > car with retractable wings.
> > > The truth is merchandising of movies and TV shows has been around
> as
> > > long as they have been. It didn't start with Dolittle and Apes.
> Nor
> > > did they take it to a new level as you suggest. It was done with
> > > radio shows, comics and serials in the 30s & 40s and TV shows in
> the
> > > 50s & 60s. Look at everything that has been produced for
> properties
> > > like Flash Gordon to Star Trek to James Bond and others.
> > > The film that is considered to have really revolutionized
> > > mechandising is Star Wars. Because for the first time the
> merchandise
> > > made more money than the film did.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > a) Disney is different; they'd merchandise their uncles if
> they
> > > could. I'm
> > > > talking about the real world. Plus Disney movies are never
> really
> > > one-shots;
> > > > they've got theme parks and continuing shows on TV to keep
> interest
> > > in their
> > > > movies
> > > >
> > > > b) exactly how much "Poppins" merch was there the year it came
> > > out? Not
> > > > since, but that year. I bet "Dolittle" beat
> > > > - - - Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:34 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline


> Yes Every fugitive takes out time to do sketches of clothing styles.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > As I've said before, my answer is that Cornelius did some
> sketches of their civilization for Armando and Caesar later
> remembered and incorporated them into "Battle". That's the only way
> to get the same costumes. Works for me. - -
> Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Haristas@a...
> > To: pota@y...
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered
> Timeline
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 3/19/02 6:52:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@a... writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > The clothing styles for the apes in Planet and
> > Beneath are the same as in Battle so that arguement is specious
> >
> >
> > Oh, come on, everybody! The costumes are the same in BATTLE
> because they couldn't afford a new costume design. I think it's
> ridiculous to think that the apes costumes wouldn't evolve from
> BATTLE to PLANET, which is just another reason why I find BATTLE hard
> to take seriously.
> >
> > -- Rory
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 4:47 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline

In a message dated 3/20/02 12:46:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  As I've said before, my answer is that Cornelius did some sketches of their civilization for Armando and Caesar later remembered and incorporated them into "Battle". That's the only way to get the same costumes. Works for me.                        - - Jeff

Now did Cornelius do those sketches while he was wandering around the ship looking for some place cleaner for Zira to nurse baby Milo, or after attending the 'beastly' boxing match, or maybe whilst Zira was having her bath?

-- Rory

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Fox crowed about the $100 million when they were lining up
merchandisers
> for the new one. Here's a direct quote from the cardboard ad they
handed out
> last year at Toy Fair: "A Franchise Reborn...In it's original 1968
> incarnation, POTA spawned four sequels, two television series and
over US $
> 100 Million in merchandise sales". That's straight from the
horse's, er,
> fox's mouth. See? The new "Apes" WAS an artistic endeavor. Toodles!
> - - -
Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles
>
>
> > Apes mechandise made $100MM?!?! Where are you getting your
figures,
> > Arther Anderson.
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > "Apes" merch made more money than the films did . It made $100
> > million
> > > during the mid-70's (by contrast, "Star Wars" merch made $100
> > million just
> > > in 1978!). But like I said, serials, comic books, TV shows are
> > different;
> > > that's continuing exposure. And that's over a period of time.
It's
> > different
> > > than rolling the merch dice on one unproven film. Fox did that
> > with "Dr. D'
> > > and lost big time. By the way, the reason Kenner was so hot to
> > do "Star
> > > Wars" toys is because they thought it would eventually wind up
as a
> > TV show.
> > > Fox though so little of the merchandising that they gave the
rights
> > to Lucas
> > > if he cut his fee. And the sequel rights. Fox gets nothing
> > for "Star Wars"
> > > now except a distribution fee. He he
> > > - - Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> > > To: <pota@y...>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:18 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles
> > >
> > >
> > > > I really don't remember exact items but I remember my sister
> > > > collecting stuff. I don't really remember any items for
Dolittle
> > > > either. I do remember a lot of stuff for Chitty Chitty Bang
Bang,
> > > > which came out in 1968, including a really cool dye cast
model of
> > the
> > > > car with retractable wings.
> > > > The truth is merchandising of movies and TV shows has been
around
> > as
> > > > long as they have been. It didn't start with Dolittle and
Apes.
> > Nor
> > > > did they take it to a new level as you suggest. It was done
with
> > > > radio shows, comics and serials in the 30s & 40s and TV shows
in
> > the
> > > > 50s & 60s. Look at everything that has been produced for
> > properties
> > > > like Flash Gordon to Star Trek to James Bond and others.
> > > > The film that is considered to have really revolutionized
> > > > mechandising is Star Wars. Because for the first time the
> > merchandise
> > > > made more money than the film did.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > > > a) Disney is different; they'd merchandise their uncles if
> > they
> > > > could. I'm
> > > > > talking about the real world. Plus Disney movies are never
> > really
> > > > one-shots;
> > > > > they've got theme parks and continuing shows on TV to keep
> > interest
> > > > in their
> > > > > movies
> > > > >
> > > > > b) exactly how much "Poppins" merch was there the year it
came
> > > > out? Not
> > > > > since, but that year. I bet "Dolittle" beat
> > > > > - - - Jeff
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Face it, they had a lot of down time hiding. Armando (and Lewis
and Stevie)
> would be curious about their society. And Cornelius is an
archeologist, he
> can even draw one. - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 11:34 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
>
>
> > Yes Every fugitive takes out time to do sketches of clothing
styles.
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > As I've said before, my answer is that Cornelius did some
> > sketches of their civilization for Armando and Caesar later
> > remembered and incorporated them into "Battle". That's the only
way
> > to get the same costumes. Works for me. - -
> > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Haristas@a...
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 5:38 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered
> > Timeline
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 3/19/02 6:52:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > JamesA1102@a... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The clothing styles for the apes in Planet and
> > > Beneath are the same as in Battle so that arguement is
specious
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh, come on, everybody! The costumes are the same in BATTLE
> > because they couldn't afford a new costume design. I think it's
> > ridiculous to think that the apes costumes wouldn't evolve from
> > BATTLE to PLANET, which is just another reason why I find BATTLE
hard
> > to take seriously.
> > >
> > > -- Rory
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

>
>> He does if BATTLE was the Corringtons story. Which it was,
>according to
>> the Writers Guild and the Greene and Russo books.
>
>Well according to the Writer's Guild the Corrington's script was
>based on Dehn's original story outline which is credited in the film.
>According to the Russo book, Dehn also did the final rewrite of the
>film. So its really more his story than the Corrington's.
>Frankly, I think Battle leaves things pretty open ended. If man and
>ape can get along the earth is saved. If not then BOOM!!!!!
>

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:

> I reread the summary of Dehn's BATTLE story (the one that was
discarded)
> in the Russo book and Dehn intentions are much more clear to me
now. Dehn's
> BATTLE story mades perfect sense as a circular timelime, and his
story had the
> same exact ending I said it needed to have for a circular timeline:
Dehn
> made Aldo kill Caesar, without a Lawgiver scene.
>
> The thing to note is that it wasn't just the Corringtons who
intended
> that the BATTLE Aldo be the same character as the ESCAPE Aldo (and
the
> CONQUEST Aldo) Dehn ALSO intended for the BATTLE Aldo to be the
> same Aldo which Dehn himself set up in ESCAPE (and in the CONQUEST
script).
> That explains why Dehn didn't call Caesar "Aldo" in CONQUEST or
ESCAPE.
> In Dehn's story, Caesar's existence does NOT cause a circular
timeline.
> Instead Caesar is made historically irrelevent by Aldo, who begins
> history down the same path he did before.
>
> The Russo book [p208] says that Jacobs didn't like Dehn's ending,
> and Joyce Corrington says that Dehn's story was "completely
discarded".
> The Corringtons wrote a story where Caesar kills Aldo and frees the
humans.
> Note that this was the exact opposite of the ending Dehn wanted to
have.
> But the Corringtons script didn't stop there, they confirmed beyond
all
> doubt the altered timeline in the Lawgiver scene. There they show
> that the integrated liberal civilization created by Caesar is still
around
> 700 years later, instead of the primitive barbarism and
carniverious
> gorillas. Even more important is that Caesar's actions morphed the
Lawgiver,
> a figure whose dogmatic influence was comparible to Jesus,
Mohammed, or
> Confucious, from conservative bigot into tolerant liberal. In
other
> words, Caesar's influence on history couldn't possibly have been
any greater.
>
> -Tom
>
>

> Of course, of course. . . Now, SHUT UP, YOU FREAK!

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/20/02 1:21:13 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> melkor@m... writes:
>
>
> > The Russo book [p208] says that Jacobs didn't like Dehn's ending,
> > and Joyce Corrington says that Dehn's story was "completely
discarded".
> > The Corringtons wrote a story where Caesar kills Aldo and frees
the humans.
> > Note that this was the exact opposite of the ending Dehn wanted
to have.
> > But the Corringtons script didn't stop there, they confirmed
beyond all
> > doubt the altered timeline in the Lawgiver scene. There they show
> > that the integrated liberal civilization created by Caesar is
still around
> > 700 years later, instead of the primitive barbarism and
carniverious
> > gorillas. Even more important is that Caesar's actions morphed
the
> > Lawgiver,
> > a figure whose dogmatic influence was comparible to Jesus,
Mohammed, or
> > Confucious, from conservative bigot into tolerant liberal. In
other
> > words, Caesar's influence on history couldn't possibly have been
any
> > greater.
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> >
>
> That's it, Tom, you've settled this whole circular timeline/altered
timeline
> thing once and for all. That's it! End of argument. When Zira
and
> Cornelius arrive in 1973, the original fabric of time has been
ripped and the
> history of events are changed.
>
> By the way, I asked Joe Russo himself he thought of some fans'
opinion that
> the APES films form a circular timeline in which the same events
just keep
> happening over and over without end, and he said, "What?!! Where
do they get
> that?"
>
> Eat that all you circular timeline bloody baboons!
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> You've been playing with your toodles too long, Jeff. Cornelius
doesn't tell
> Dixon that he can draw (and then that's only maps -- and we know
how good
> Cornelius is at that!) until they're about to send the apes out to
the
> derelict ship. If Dixon already knew he could draw why would
Cornelius tell
> him again? And besides this is silly! These drawings of apes'
outfits are
> supposed to have survived the nuclear war and been kept by Caesar
through all
> he goes through?!!!! Then from that he creates patterns by which
the
> costumes could be exactly duplicated just as they were 2000 years
in the
> future!!!!
>
> Jeff, go back to playing with your toodles, and leave the nutty
stuff to
> Patrick Tilton Michael Over!
>
> -- Rory

>
>The Writer's Guild doesn't hand out screen credits like candy. They
>must have thought that there was enough similarity between Dehn's
>original story and the Corrington's script to determine that Dehn's
>story was not completely disgarded, giving him the story credit in
>the film.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> >
> >The Writer's Guild doesn't hand out screen credits like candy. They
> >must have thought that there was enough similarity between Dehn's
> >original story and the Corrington's script to determine that Dehn's
> >story was not completely disgarded, giving him the story credit in
> >the film.
>
> The Writer's Guild refused to give Dehn any credits for BATTLE. A
Writer's
> Guild credit is not the same thing as getting your name in the
movie, it comes
> afterwards. According to the Russo book [p211] Dehn asked for the
credit
> "Original story and dialogue by Paul Dehn". Dehn also said if he
couldn't
> get both credits then he just wanted credit for the original
story. To
> quote Russo: "In the end, the Writer's Guild would award him
neither credit".
> Seems pretty clear to me.
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 20 March 2002 9:03

>
>Look at the film it clearly credits "Story by Paul Dehn"

>they
>couldn't of done that if the Writer's Guild hadn't approved it.

>--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
>> >
>> >The Writer's Guild doesn't hand out screen credits like candy. They
>> >must have thought that there was enough similarity between Dehn's
>> >original story and the Corrington's script to determine that Dehn's
>> >story was not completely disgarded, giving him the story credit in
>> >the film.
>>
>> The Writer's Guild refused to give Dehn any credits for BATTLE. A
>Writer's
>> Guild credit is not the same thing as getting your name in the
>movie, it comes
>> afterwards. According to the Russo book [p211] Dehn asked for the
>credit
>> "Original story and dialogue by Paul Dehn". Dehn also said if he
>couldn't
>> get both credits then he just wanted credit for the original
>story. To
>> quote Russo: "In the end, the Writer's Guild would award him
>neither credit".
>> Seems pretty clear to me.
>

>
>Nah, he'll try to explain it all right!!!!
>
>Michael
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Melkor [melkor@...]
>Sent: Wednesday, 20 March 2002 6:43
>
>Do you accept the picture of New York City 500 years from now seen in the TV
>pilot as "canon", or do you choose to ignore that?
>
>-Tom
>

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> >
> >Look at the film it clearly credits "Story by Paul Dehn"
>
> I'm sure Jacobs didn't mind having Dehn's name included in the film
> knowing that it would bring in more box office receipts.
>
> >they
> >couldn't of done that if the Writer's Guild hadn't approved it.
>
> Of course they could. Are you calling Joe Russo a liar? The
Writer's
> Guild denied Dehn the credit after the film came out. The way they
> work is that they examine all versions of the scripts to see who
wrote
> what.
>
>
>
> >--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >The Writer's Guild doesn't hand out screen credits like candy.
They
> >> >must have thought that there was enough similarity between
Dehn's
> >> >original story and the Corrington's script to determine that
Dehn's
> >> >story was not completely disgarded, giving him the story credit
in
> >> >the film.
> >>
> >> The Writer's Guild refused to give Dehn any credits for BATTLE.
A
> >Writer's
> >> Guild credit is not the same thing as getting your name in the
> >movie, it comes
> >> afterwards. According to the Russo book [p211] Dehn asked for
the
> >credit
> >> "Original story and dialogue by Paul Dehn". Dehn also said if he
> >couldn't
> >> get both credits then he just wanted credit for the original
> >story. To
> >> quote Russo: "In the end, the Writer's Guild would award him
> >neither credit".
> >> Seems pretty clear to me.
> >
>

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
>
> Then how is he going to explain the 20th century ruins of NYC seen
> in BENEATH? That the city was nuked and then rebuilt again?
>
> -Tom
>
>
> >
> >Nah, he'll try to explain it all right!!!!
> >
> >Michael
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Melkor [melkor@m...]
> >Sent: Wednesday, 20 March 2002 6:43
> >
> >Do you accept the picture of New York City 500 years from now seen
in the TV
> >pilot as "canon", or do you choose to ignore that?
> >
> >-Tom
> >
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/20/02 11:04:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
MTotsky@a...
> writes:
>
>
> > << Hey, folks, this thing is out! Does anyone here dare to order
it? >>
> >
> > Go for it Rory! I want to borrow it after you've viewed it.
> >
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
>
> I may just have to do that!

>I'm not saying that Russo is a liar but according to Rory, he was
>unaware that people saw the series as a time loop; so maybe there are
>some flaws in his research. Russo was interviewing people 20 to 30
>years after the fact. Possibly the memories of those people was not
>totally accurate.