> I think EMPIRE is much better than the first one, however RETURN OF

> is boring. It's like a kiddy film or something. I didn't think

> was great, but it was entertaining. Basically though I like

> that makes you think, and the era of SF films that do that died

> WARS. POTA and 2001 were really the last great SF films.
>
> -- Rory

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 9:39
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Time Setting
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > James,
> >
> > How do you explain the date reading on the ship in Beneath? YOU
> DON'T!!!
>
> I never said I did. That was obviously a mistake. What does that have
> to do with anything anyway.
>
>
> > Yes, there was a dial phone, but at the time they may have had no
> idea how
> > technology would change and therefore the dial phone is just proof
> that
> > Beneath was sloppy, not that it was the 20th Century.
> >
> > Michael
>
> I still waiting to hear someone to point out something in the film
> that indicates its not the 20th century. The plot synopsis in the
> pressbook for Beneath states, "Astronaut Brent is sent by U.S. space
> authorities along the same trajectory through time and space followed
> by earlier earlier Astronaut Taylor. But shortly after Brent's
> departure, the U.S. is devastated by a series of nuclear attacks and
> New York City, among others is levelled". In the Russo book, Dehn is
> quoted as saying that "New York itself lay buried beneath what the
> Apes called the Forbidden Zone. It remained only to people the
> underground city with mutants descended from the survivors of a
> nuclear bomb dropped on New York 2,000 years earlier". So either way
> you slice it 2,000 years before 3978 or 3955 is still the 20th
> Century.
> Plus, I forgot to mention the 'New York is Summer Festival' sign.
> That was a real campaign to boost tourism in the '60s and '70s prior
> to the 'I Love NY' campaign.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 11:08
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Star Wars sucks!
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > I think EMPIRE is much better than the first one, however RETURN OF
> THE JEDI
> > is boring. It's like a kiddy film or something. I didn't think
> the last one
> > was great, but it was entertaining. Basically though I like
> Science Fiction
> > that makes you think, and the era of SF films that do that died
> with STAR
> > WARS. POTA and 2001 were really the last great SF films.
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
> Unfortunately, its the kiddies that buy all the toys. Someone's got
> to pay for Lucas' new Lear Jet.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CheeseGOTAS@... [CheeseGOTAS@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 14:15
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Star Wars: Muppet style
>
>
> In a message dated 3/22/02 6:07:44 PM Central Standard Time,
> Haristas@...
> writes:
>
> << I think EMPIRE is much better than the first one, however
> RETURN OF THE
> JEDI
> is boring. It's like a kiddy film or something. I didn't think
> the last
> one
> was great, but it was entertaining. Basically though I like
> Science Fiction
> that makes you think, and the era of SF films that do that died
> with STAR
> WARS. POTA and 2001 were really the last great SF films.
>
> -- Rory >>
>
> I think the second have of Jedi is just The Muppet Movie, huh?
>
> -Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles


> I never specifically said each Star Wars film got better. But, there
> are some who would argue that Empire was better than the original.
> While sequels like Godfather II, Star Trek II, Aliens and Batman
> Returns have been considered better than their originals. The point I
> was trying to make was that after Star Wars, the notion in Hollywood
> of making each sequel for cheaper than the original has been turned
> to where they spend more on a sequel to try to top the original.
>
> --- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > You're right, James. Each "Star Wars" movie gets better.
> >
> > The sarcasm detector's off the scale!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Ummm.....sorry James, but I think you will find all the big Star
Wars
> collectors have grey hair.
>
> Kids PLAY with toys, yes.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 11:08
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Star Wars sucks!
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > > I think EMPIRE is much better than the first one, however
RETURN OF
> > THE JEDI
> > > is boring. It's like a kiddy film or something. I didn't think
> > the last one
> > > was great, but it was entertaining. Basically though I like
> > Science Fiction
> > > that makes you think, and the era of SF films that do that died
> > with STAR
> > > WARS. POTA and 2001 were really the last great SF films.
> > >
> > > -- Rory
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately, its the kiddies that buy all the toys. Someone's
got
> > to pay for Lucas' new Lear Jet.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Time Setting


> James,
>
> How do you explain the date reading on the ship in Beneath? YOU DON'T!!!
> Yes, there was a dial phone, but at the time they may have had no idea how
> technology would change and therefore the dial phone is just proof that
> Beneath was sloppy, not that it was the 20th Century.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 3:13
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > The "Beneath" skyline looks different. I think they supposed
> > future changes. Despite James' theories I don't think they assumed a
> > 20th Century Fall of Man at that
> > point. - - Jeff
> >
> > Then how do you explain the dial phone in the subway station or the
> > bus or Heston's line about the bomb. What in the film suggests that
> > it was later than the 20th Century?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
I'd rather watch
> the worst "Ape" movie than the worst "Star Wars" movie. Mostly
because
> "Battle" is a lot shorter than "Episode 1"! Tee hee!
>
> - - -
Jeff

Well there I'd have to agree with you. But the Battle is not the
worst Apes movie. The one released last summer was.

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 3:38 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Time Setting


> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > James,
> >
> > How do you explain the date reading on the ship in Beneath? YOU
> DON'T!!!
>
> I never said I did. That was obviously a mistake. What does that have
> to do with anything anyway.
>
>
> > Yes, there was a dial phone, but at the time they may have had no
> idea how
> > technology would change and therefore the dial phone is just proof
> that
> > Beneath was sloppy, not that it was the 20th Century.
> >
> > Michael
>
> I still waiting to hear someone to point out something in the film
> that indicates its not the 20th century. The plot synopsis in the
> pressbook for Beneath states, "Astronaut Brent is sent by U.S. space
> authorities along the same trajectory through time and space followed
> by earlier earlier Astronaut Taylor. But shortly after Brent's
> departure, the U.S. is devastated by a series of nuclear attacks and
> New York City, among others is levelled". In the Russo book, Dehn is
> quoted as saying that "New York itself lay buried beneath what the
> Apes called the Forbidden Zone. It remained only to people the
> underground city with mutants descended from the survivors of a
> nuclear bomb dropped on New York 2,000 years earlier". So either way
> you slice it 2,000 years before 3978 or 3955 is still the 20th
> Century.
> Plus, I forgot to mention the 'New York is Summer Festival' sign.
> That was a real campaign to boost tourism in the '60s and '70s prior
> to the 'I Love NY' campaign.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 3:38 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Time Setting


> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > James,
> >
> > How do you explain the date reading on the ship in Beneath? YOU
> DON'T!!!
>
> I never said I did. That was obviously a mistake. What does that have
> to do with anything anyway.
>
>
> > Yes, there was a dial phone, but at the time they may have had no
> idea how
> > technology would change and therefore the dial phone is just proof
> that
> > Beneath was sloppy, not that it was the 20th Century.
> >
> > Michael
>
> I still waiting to hear someone to point out something in the film
> that indicates its not the 20th century. The plot synopsis in the
> pressbook for Beneath states, "Astronaut Brent is sent by U.S. space
> authorities along the same trajectory through time and space followed
> by earlier earlier Astronaut Taylor. But shortly after Brent's
> departure, the U.S. is devastated by a series of nuclear attacks and
> New York City, among others is levelled". In the Russo book, Dehn is
> quoted as saying that "New York itself lay buried beneath what the
> Apes called the Forbidden Zone. It remained only to people the
> underground city with mutants descended from the survivors of a
> nuclear bomb dropped on New York 2,000 years earlier". So either way
> you slice it 2,000 years before 3978 or 3955 is still the 20th
> Century.
> Plus, I forgot to mention the 'New York is Summer Festival' sign.
> That was a real campaign to boost tourism in the '60s and '70s prior
> to the 'I Love NY' campaign.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Don't get me wrong, I agree and my interpretation is that

> Zone" of Beneath is INDEED NYC. I am not, however, entirely sure

> strength of the "evidence". I would be particularly cautious of

> firm conclusions on what is released in the "pressbook".

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 3:57 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Star Wars sucks!

In a message dated 3/22/02 3:42:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

I never specifically said each Star Wars film got better. But, there
are some who would argue that Empire was better than the original.

I think EMPIRE is much better than the first one, however RETURN OF THE JEDI is boring.  It's like a kiddy film or something.  I didn't think the last one was great, but it was entertaining.  Basically though I like Science Fiction that makes you think, and the era of SF films that do that died with STAR WARS.  POTA and 2001 were really the last great SF films.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> I don't count publicity. That's not canon!
> - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Collectibles


> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> I'd rather watch
> > the worst "Ape" movie than the worst "Star Wars" movie. Mostly
> because
> > "Battle" is a lot shorter than "Episode 1"! Tee hee!
> >
> > - - -
> Jeff
>
> Well there I'd have to agree with you. But the Battle is not the
> worst Apes movie. The one released last summer was.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 9:35 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Time Setting


> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Don't get me wrong, I agree and my interpretation is that
> the "Forbidden
> > Zone" of Beneath is INDEED NYC. I am not, however, entirely sure
> about the
> > strength of the "evidence". I would be particularly cautious of
> basing any
> > firm conclusions on what is released in the "pressbook".
>
>
> Well what evidence is there to the contrary in 'Beneath' that NYC was
> supposed to be destroyed later than either the late 20th or early
> 21st Century? I've asked this several times and still haven't gotten
> an answer from anyone.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Because it says so in the TV show, silly. New York is still around

> Znack! - - - Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 15:36
>
> Well what evidence is there to the contrary in 'Beneath' that NYC was

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 15:28
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Star Wars sucks!
>
>
> Did they have grey hair in 1983 when Jedi was released?
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Ummm.....sorry James, but I think you will find all the big Star
> Wars
> > collectors have grey hair.
> >
> > Kids PLAY with toys, yes.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: james611102 [JamesA1102@a...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 11:08
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Star Wars sucks!
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > > > I think EMPIRE is much better than the first one, however
> RETURN OF
> > > THE JEDI
> > > > is boring. It's like a kiddy film or something. I didn't think
> > > the last one
> > > > was great, but it was entertaining. Basically though I like
> > > Science Fiction
> > > > that makes you think, and the era of SF films that do that died
> > > with STAR
> > > > WARS. POTA and 2001 were really the last great SF films.
> > > >
> > > > -- Rory
> > >
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, its the kiddies that buy all the toys. Someone's
> got
> > > to pay for Lucas' new Lear Jet.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Yes they did.
>
> A close friend of mine who worked at Hasbro told me this.
>
> Michael

>From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
>I never specifically said each Star Wars film got better. But, there
>are some who would argue that Empire was better than the original.
>While sequels like Godfather II, Star Trek II, Aliens and Batman
>Returns have been considered better than their originals.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: james611102 [JamesA1102@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 March 2002 20:39
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Star Wars sucks!
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Yes they did.
> >
> > A close friend of mine who worked at Hasbro told me this.
> >
> > Michael
>
> Touche LOL

> Batman Returns?? I've never known anyone to consider that better

> original. Most people I know (myself included) think it's poorly

> especially in regard to the Penguin.

Alan, somebody told me you'd written a fiction about the tv series.  Any chance of emailing it to me?  I'd love to read it.

Kassidy

> How about we skip this pointless speculation and instead speculate

> caused the nuclear war. Why did it happen? Was man trying to put

> world-wide ape revolt, or did it have nothing to do with the apes?

> man was trying to put down a world-wide ape revolt what good would

> I think the war must have been about something else. And while

> how did Caesar and his apes and the humans survive the war and not

> like the mutants?

>
>1) Were the non-movie-adapting records (i.e. Tree People, etc.) issued only
>as records, or did they have accompanying comics too? And what were they
>based on? The TV series, the movies, the comics? Or were they brand new
>adventures with brand new characters?
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Handley" <handleyr@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 4:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Digest Number 987


> >From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
> >I never specifically said each Star Wars film got better. But, there
> >are some who would argue that Empire was better than the original.
> >While sequels like Godfather II, Star Trek II, Aliens and Batman
> >Returns have been considered better than their originals.
>
> Batman Returns?? I've never known anyone to consider that better than the
> original. Most people I know (myself included) think it's poorly written,
> especially in regard to the Penguin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 8:05 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Star Wars sucks!

In a message dated 3/23/02 12:39:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  That's exactly right, Rory! That's what "Star Wars" gave us. Turned sci-fi into video games. But there are still sci-fi films with thought, like the remake of "The Fly".  bllling!                                       - - - Jeff

I'm not that big a fan of THE FLY remake.  I think that movie was all about gross-out SFX, just as the remake of THE THING was.  However, I like the remake of THE THING.  I think my big problem with the remake of THE FLY is I think the director sucks, but then Carpenter sucks too!  Oh, I'm confused.  Maybe I just like THE THING because I like movies with lots of snow.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 9:22 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Time Setting


> --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > How about we skip this pointless speculation and instead speculate
> on what
> > caused the nuclear war. Why did it happen? Was man trying to put
> down a
> > world-wide ape revolt, or did it have nothing to do with the apes?
> And if
> > man was trying to put down a world-wide ape revolt what good would
> nukes do?
>
> I've always assumed that either Russia or China tried to take
> advantage of the chaos in the US caused by the Ape revolt and that's
> what started the war. But its just an assumption.
>
> > I think the war must have been about something else. And while
> we're at it,
> > how did Caesar and his apes and the humans survive the war and not
> end up
> > like the mutants?
>
> Large doses of potassium?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> >fans; it works for me and for the project I'm working on, and it's
> >consistent with the details given in the "canon" of 5 films and 14 TV
> >episodes. And that's all it NEEDS to be, as far as I'm concerned.
> >

>
> -Tom

> Sorry I still don't think it makes any sense. Sounds like you made up
> your mind going in and have concocted a lot of conveluted theories to
> make it work.

> The TV series can easily mesh with the films with a simple westward
> migration of apes from Caeser's City rather than a Mutant and Ape
> migration eastward. The clothing styles for the apes in Planet and
> Beneath are the same as in Battle so that arguement is specious.

> The "San Simian Sentinal" was the Herald produced for Battle not
> Conquest. And unlike the Herald from the other films it doesn't
> pretend to be a Newspaper from within the world of the film. It is
> all promotional articles about the making of Battle with interviews
> of Arthur Jacobs and J. Lee Thompson.

> If you want to use the Heralds as an indication; look at the one for
> Conquest. It is called "Future News" and its masthead closely
> resembles the masthead of the 'Daily News' in New York.
> Also, rememeber Caeser's city in Battle as well as the city in Planet
> & Beneath was always refered to as "Ape City" while the city in the
> TV series was called "Central City". My assumuption is that the
> writers of the TV series moved the action to this west coast Ape
> settlement so as not to interfer with the timeline of the films.

>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> wrote:
> > *** Breck's city doesn't HAVE to be on the West Coast, or the East
> > Coast. Hell, it COULD be in the Gulf of Mexico, or even in Hudson
> Bay!
> > In the film CONQUEST we are only told that it is "North America,
> 1991"
> > and it sure would've been nice of them to narrow that down a tad!
> >
> > The reason that I--for the sake of the novel I'm working on--have
> > chosen southern California for the location of Breck's city, has to
> do
> > with the fact that the "saga" I'm trying to (re-)tell (with extra
> > added original material developed by me) comprises the 5 films AND
> the
> > 14 TV episodes. In order to make the TV show data "mesh" with the
> film
> > series' data, I have to come up with an intermediate history
> between
> > the events of BATTLE (both the main story and the Lawgiver "frame"
> > sequence) and the events of the TV show in 3085, and that history
> > should delve into the continuity of the initially peaceful post-
> BATTLE
> > ape-and-human society and its degeneration into the Ape-dominant
> > society we see on the TV show. The ape culture in BATTLE has
> clothing
> > styles that are carried over into the 3085 time, which indicates
> that
> > despite the 1000+ years separating the time of Caesar and the time
> of
> > Urko, that there is a "cultural conservatism" factor involved.
> > Frankly, I don't buy the idea that a Caesar-community on the OTHER
> > side of the continent could develop specific clothing styles that
> > another entirely isolated community (on the West coast, the TV
> show)
> > just "coincidentally" happened also to develop--not just the color-
> > coding (i.e. Green-and-Brown for Chimpanzees, Orange-and-Brown for
> > Orangutans, and Purple-and-Black for Gorillas) but also the GLYPH
> > symbols, which clearly represent some form of language--if not an
> > alphabetic one, perhaps a syllabary or pictographic one.
> > If the same clothing styles exist in southern California in 3085,
> then
> > it is more probable than not that the society there inherited it
> from
> > ancestors who dwelt in the same area. Sure, descendants of Caesar's
> > community COULD have migrated westwards, traveling from an East
> coast
> > area towards California. Sure, it's possible--I'll not deny it. But
> if
> > we accept the TV show as "canon" (i.e. as "mesh-able" with the film
> > series--which some out there DON'T agree with, despite my
> predilection
> > for it), then we should figure that it's more likely that the Chief
> > Councillor Zaius of 3085 (in southern California) is a direct
> ancestor
> > of Dr. Zaius from PLANET/BENEATH (in the NY/NJ area), since BOTH of
> > them are political authority figures who possess the hidden truth
> > about the pre-Simian superior culture of Humans who destroyed
> > themselves in a devastating war. The PLANET Zaius had to have been
> > "initiated" into the hidden/"occult" Knowledge of Man's earlier
> > civilization; that Knowledge HAD to have been handed down secretly,
> > from either Father-to-Son or from "Grand Master"-to-"Acolyte" (as
> in a
> > secret society, like the Freemasons, or the Odd Fellows, or "Skull
> &
> > Bones"). Most probably, the "secret society" keeping this Knowledge
> > hidden from the Masses would be kept "in family" (just as all the
> > "Bush" clan seem to be privileged members, sort of a political
> dynasty
> > with non-standard affiliations--the Bushes (George, George W., and
> Jeb
> > too, I believe) are all "Skull & Bones" Society members).
> > If the TV Zaius is in California (which he IS), and the PLANET
> Zaius
> > is near NY/NJ (which he IS), then at some point AFTER 3085 and
> BEFORE
> > 3955, there had to be a migration EASTWARD, from California to
> NY/NJ.
> > If you don't want to consider the TV show "canon" with the movies,
> > well, fine; I don't care what anyone else prefers; for the sake of
> MY
> > novel-in-progress, the TV show IS "canon", and this necessitates a
> > California/3085-to-NY/3955 migration of the "House of Zaius".
> > What sorts of things might prompt a California-based society to
> uproot
> > and migrate Eastward? Any number of things:
> > 1.) A meteor/comet/asteroid strike in the Pacific: it wipes out
> > everything near the coast. Zaius--in Central City (some distance
> away
> > from the Ocean)--survives, and perhaps leads the mass-migration
> away
> > from the monstrous Sea...
> > 2.) A race war breaks out, pitting Ape against Human--and, perhaps,
> > either or both against the subterranean Mendez community of
> burgeoning
> > telepaths/"mind-f*ckers"...
> > 3.) A plague, perhaps brought on by a mutated virus from vermin
> > dwelling near one of the many nuked-out locales on the borders of
> the
> > inhabited areas dominated by Central City, quickly spreads and
> kills
> > off not just humans and horses, but also apes; just as the Black
> > Plague depopulated large areas of Europe during the Middle Ages,
> > causing not only large-scale migrations but also pogroms against
> Jews
> > and Gypsies (thought to have been purposely spreading Disease,
> > according to some people back then who didn't know any better);
> > similarly, a massive outbreak of "the Plague" would probably be yet
> > another catalyst for bigoted Apes to blame Humans.
> > Those are just 3 possible reasons for a mass-migration of the Zaius-
> > led community of Apes; the same reasons could ALSO explain, in
> part,
> > the migration of the Mendez community away from their "southern
> > California" locale--so that they end up in a "Forbidden Zone"
> adjacent
> > to the area that Zaius' group establishes itself in.
> >
> > In addition, there is one other element in particular that makes me
> > choose southern California as the location of Breck's city: in the
> > promotional material that Fox cooked up for CONQUEST, they produced
> a
> > mock-newspaper called the "San Simian Sentinel" (in part, I
> believe,
> > because there was a premier of the film at the Hearst Castle [I
> think,
> > but I'm not absolutely certain], which is called "San Simeon"--as
> is a
> > nearby town on the Pacific coast, about halfway between San
> Francisco
> > and Los Angeles. As a tribute to this little-known "factoid"
> regarding
> > CONQUEST, I've decided to place "my" location for
> Breck's "arcopolis"
> > city on the site of the two towns SAN SIMEON and CAMBRIA,
> his "newer"
> > city subsuming the other two (which then lie within the "city
> limits"
> > of Breck's arcopolis). Rather than give this arcopolis a different
> > name, I've elected to have it named "San Simeon" (and it's local
> > newspaper will be the "San Simeon Sentinel").
> > This "arcopolis"/"arcology" will be designed for a similar purpose
> to
> > that given in the novel OATH OF FEALTY (by Larry Niven and ESCAPE-
> > novelizer Jerry Pournelle): there are those in Government and
> Industry
> > who know that Humanity must--one day--go to the Stars, and a
> necessary
> > precursor to such a Voyage is the CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT of a self-
> > sufficient Habitat. The arcopolis of "Todos Santos" in the Niven/
> > Pournelle novel is designed to be maximally efficient, a sort of
> > blueprint for a huge "generation-ship" which would be needed to
> > transfer a sizable population across Space; the U.S. Government--in
> > post-ESCAPE, post-Pet Plague, America--sets aside certain areas for
> > "wealthy industrialists" to develop, with the same long-term goal
> > (i.e. Space Colonization), and Breck is one of those wealthy Trump-
> > like "movers and shakers". It is believed--due to the CIA/NSA
> > interrogation of Cornelius and Zira--that after the 1983 Plague
> there
> > will be some 500 years left for America to develop its "long term"
> > project (i.e. "arcopolis"-to-"orbital/lunar/Mars/asteroid belt
> > colonies"-to-"interstellar generation ship"-to-"Star colonies")...
> but
> > they were purposely misled by Cornelius' (and Zira's) intentional
> > changing of "years" to "centuries" (which contradicts his earlier
> > testimony regarding his people speaking English for 2000 years).
> So,
> > instead of investing trillions of dollars into Space colonization
> > (post-1983), the U.S. takes its time, under the mistaken belief
> that
> > they have 500 years or so in which to extend their influence beyond
> > the bounds of the Solar System.
> > One other reason for choosing to have the
> CONQUEST/BATTLE "arcopolis"
> > at San Simeon has to do with the NAME. "San Simeon" means "Saint
> > Simeon/Simon" and the apostle Peter was also called "Simon Peter"--
> the
> > "Rock" upon which Christ built his Church (Peter's
> nickname, "Cephas",
> > literally means "Rock"). Remembering the location of the ALPHA-
> OMEGA
> > bomb in BENEATH (in St. Patrick's Cathedral), and knowing that Kolp
> > did NOT keep it in that later location, it seemed reasonable to me
> > that from a symbolic standpoint the Bomb should first have been set
> up
> > in a place that is reminiscent of the "Rock"/foundation of the
> > Christian church (i.e. Simon Peter = St. Simeon = San Simeon),
> given
> > that the religious ceremonies used by Mendez' descendants will be a
> > grotesque parody of the Roman Catholic Mass. Keep in mind, also,
> that
> > in Vatican City--the center of Roman Catholicism--there is St.
> Peter's
> > Basilica (it is "prophesied" in the Prophecies of Malachy that the
> > bones of St. Peter himself will be found sometime soon in the
> > Catacombs under Rome), and it is a particular dogma of Catholicism
> > that Christ made Peter the first "pope", the source of their
> > "authority" in ecclesiastical matters. So it makes sense, at least
> > allegorically, for the Bomb God to first be established in a place
> > that has some sort of connection with the Christ-Peter-Rome
> > establishment in the religion from which Mendez' group takes its
> > "form".
> > Rory might not dig my scenario, or my reasonings for it, but that's
> > okay with me. I'm not declaring my scenario to be a MUST for all
> POTA
> > fans; it works for me and for the project I'm working on, and it's
> > consistent with the details given in the "canon" of 5 films and 14
> TV
> > episodes. And that's all it NEEDS to be, as far as I'm concerned.
> >
> > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > EARTH-TIME 3-19-2002

> Not compared to others he doesn't. And while I don't always agree
> with Rory, at least there is a logic to his arguments. Some of the
> theories here are way to conveluted.

--- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
>
> I have that on LP record. It didn't have comics and the stories
are based
> on the TV series stories. My impression is that these stories were
from
> either unused or rejected TV series scripts, but some of them were
> interesting. In "Volcano" Urko plans a coup against Zaius, and of
> course Virden and Burke stop him.
>
> Months ago I converted them to both CD and mp3 format but they are
a little
> scratchy. I don't have a web site and haven't used a file sharing
program
> since napster, but if I knew a way to make the mp3s available to
the group I
> would.
>
> 14302145 Oct 3 2000 Planet_Of_The_Apes-Battle_Of_Two_Worlds.mp3
> 11233488 Oct 3 2000 Planet_Of_The_Apes-Dawn_Of_The_Tree_People.mp3
> 11962827 Oct 3 2000 Planet_Of_The_Apes-Mountain_Of_The_Delphi.mp3
> 9143806 Oct 3 2000 Planet_Of_The_Apes-Volcano.mp3
>

> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > I don't count publicity. That's not canon!
> > - - - Jeff
>
> Well what is canon is what is in the film. And everything seen in the
> film leads to the conclusion that the nuclear war took place in the
> late 20th or early 21th century. If there is something in 'Beneath'
> that I'm overlooking that indicates the war was centuries later; let
> me know.

> *** Hey, quantum mechanics is convoluted too, but it happens to

> "sense" of the bizarre experimental data that Planck, Einstein,

> and others compiled--more sense than Newton's theory at any rate. I
> "made up my mind" only after deciding that I was going to tell an
> overarching story that included all 5 films AND the 14 TV episodes.
> Had I not elected to include the TV show, then I probably WOULD opt
> for an East coast CONQUEST/BATTLE... but WITH the TV show, we HAVE

> deal with the California setting circa 3085.
>
> *** You're forgetting about the two Zaiuses--the former was in the
> "Central City" area (California), and the latter was in the "Ape

> area (NYC). This necessitates a West-to-East migration sometime

> 3085. If CONQUEST/BATTLE were on the East coast, then we'd be stuck
> with TWO migrations: the First one being from East-to-West [BATTLE-

> TV] and the Second one being the above-stated West-to-East one [TV-

> PLANET]. But ONLY if the TV show is considered "canon" (which I--

> the sake of my epic--do). So the argument is NOT specious at all.

> *** I never said that the "San Simian Sentinel" was anything BUT a
> promotional article; I merely pointed out that the actual town of

> Simeon is on the West coast (between San Francisco and Los Angeles)
> and that the promo stuff was for CONQUEST. If I'm mistaken about it
> being for CONQUEST (as you say), that still doesn't make any
> difference: both CONQUEST and BATTLE take place in the same area,

> if that promo item was for BATTLE instead, it still denotes that

> of the country. I had other reasons for connecting San Simeon to
> Breck's city (i.e. the "Simeon"/"Simon Peter"/"Rome" religious
> allegorical angle), which connect with the Bomb-worship origin of

> Mendez crowd.

>
> *** Unless I'm mistaken, in BATTLE (the movie) the tree-fort

> ruled by Caesar is never named; it is only in the novelization that
> David Gerrold refers to it as "Ape City"--with Aldo intending to re-
> name it "Gorilla City" after he kills Kolp. The PLANET/BENEATH city

> called "Ape City" only by Brent ("... to break out of Ape

> never in those two movies is it actually referred to by anybody by
> name, and you'll recall that when Brent chats with Zira and

> the name of their city is never stated. Brent calls it "Ape City"

> describing how he got to the Mutants' underground realm--and what

> was he supposed to call it? Simia? Pithecopolis? Monkeyville? The

> is, given only what is presented in the actual films, we do not

> the actual name of the city of the Apes in PLANET/BENEATH. We only
> know what Brent calls it.
> Incidentally, the "city" founded by Caesar was a "tree-fort" motif--
> and NOT the "carved stone" type. If we are meant to think that the
> city in PLANET is the same as the site from BATTLE, then where did

> that carved rock come from?

> The "desert approaches" to Caesar's
> village don't look like the Forbidden Zone seen in PLANET; in

> it's all pretty much just a desert-dune landscape prior to the

> of Breck's wiped-out city--which does NOT look anything like the
> remains of New York City seen by Ursus' army.

> Besides, nowhere in New
> York City is there an "Archives" building on "the corner of Breck

> Ackerman"--there ARE no streets in NYC with those names. Breck's

> had a street/avenue named after him--which suggests that it was a
> NEWLY CONSTRUCTED CITY in 1991, and that Breck had the

> to have a street named after him. That doesn't sound like the Big
> Apple to me.

> Cornelius dates the "more ancient culture" (i.e. "the more

> one) to the 20th century--going back from the 40th century (pick
> either 3978 or 3955), add up "thirteen hundred years, roughly" and
> "another seven hundred years": 1300 + 700 = 2000. Subtract 2000

> either 3978 or 3955 and you get either 1978 or 1955... but remember
> the "roughly". It has to be AFTER Taylor leaves in January of 1972;

> you count the film sequels, then it has to be AFTER 1991 (CONQUEST)
> and before BATTLE, which I've shown is most probably in 2018, due

> Mandemus' line about guarding Caesar's armory for 27 years (1991 +

> = 2018).
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 3-24-2002

> Okay, let's try this as a topic: Say you were given an assignment

> to wrap up the original series of APES movies and the TV series.

> them both as part of the same storyline and they want to just tie

> loose ends and conclude the 'epic' so they can move on with 'new'

> help us all!). I'm not talking about 'unflubbing all the flubs,'

> talking about coming up with a logical conclusion to where we were

> how things appeared at the very end of BATTLE and with what we saw

> show. This is how I would tie it all together and conclude

>
> The story would begin in 2670 A.D. at the very end of BATTLE with

> Lawgiver talking to the children of Caesar's society. In this

> and humans have learned to live together. Then a group of mutants

> coming out of the Forbidden Zone, only these mutants aren't the

> appeared in BENEATH or BATTLE.
> Centuries before, after the 'battle for the planet of the apes,'

> those mutants that were captured in the battle go and return to

> This act of 'kindness' on the part of Caesar made an impression on

> Mendez. Instead of devoting his group of survivors to just

> bomb and hating the apes (as happened in the original timeline), he

> everyone to work trying to cure their illnesses and restore their

> Working in isolation for centuries they eventually returned to the

> to live and rebuilt a semblance of what our culture was atop the

> York City. In battey-powered cars and with other futuristic

> they go to make contact with the descendants of Caesar's society,

> conquers but as friends. Since humans are already living

> apes, the two societies easily meld as one.
>
> Jump to 3085 A.D. The events of the TV show have led to an all

> of the humans against their simian oppressors on the western region

> was the United States. A huge battle ensues between Urko and his

> forces and the humans led by Virdon and Burke and a few renegade

> including Galen. Just when it looks like the two sides are about

> each other, the expeditionary force from the peaceful Ape/Human

> the east coast appears. They have made a peaceful civilization in

> and have finally started to explore the rest of the continent.

> Burke are elated, Galen is seen by most of the apes as having been

> about living as equals with humans, and the forces of Urko see the

> making any further efforts to subjugate man (especially after Urko

> in a fire fight). A world half ape, have man can survive after all.
>
> Jump ahead to 3978 A.D. Taylor's spaceship appears streaking

> sky. It crashlands in a lake in an arid desert. But as the ship

> Taylor and his surviving crew are aided by boaters in the lake,

> families of both apes and humans.
>
> Well, that's how I'd do it. Of course some of you would rather see

> lead AGAIN to an Alpha/Omega bomb destroying the world. . . . . but

> that's your insanity.
>
> -- Rory

> *** Your spelling of "convoluted" ["conveluted"] is rather

> Same goes for the word "too" ["to"]
> At least you didn't write "weigh two conveluted"...

> Yikes! Patrick, your ideas are so far 'out there' that this just doesn't seem like Planet of the Apes to me at all. It's just Planet of Patrick's Imagination, and it's crazy.

> If North America is so ravaged by nuclear radiation that your orbiting scientists wouldn't land there, how is anybody else supposed to survive there?

> I don't understand this fetish to 'unflub the flubs' to this extreme. When being a fan of something leads to what you're doing, Patrick, well. . . I don't know, I just don't know. It's weirdness. I don't want to go there.
>
> -- Rory

>
>
> In a message dated 3/24/02 9:59:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > In regards to the "NEW YORK CITY: 2503" picture from "Escape From
> > Tomorrow", no, I'm not choosing to ignore it, and I DO consider it
> > "canon"; if you'll check out some of my prior postings, you'll find
> > that the way I'm going to explain that particular detail dovetails
> > with a number of other details in the TV show (the grenades Zaius got
> > from the "as-tro-nauts" who landed more than 10 years before 3085, the
> > holographic projector & computer caches stashed away by "the
> > Scientists" just before the Nuclear War, etc.). In a nutshell, my
> > scenario has it that "the Scientists" acquire a fairly accurate
> > forewarning of the impending Nuke War--since they have enough time to
> > set up various computerized collections of "the sum of all human
> > knowledge" in a number of vaults in cities throughout the world
> > (including in Oakland). These "Scientists" are able to survive the
> > Nuke War in an orbiting scientific research station orbiting the
> > planet--they witness the devastation from orbit. Eventually, they
> > descend to the surface (some 6 or 7 years later), but NOT in North
> > America--which is so ravaged by nuclear radiation that survivability
> > there would be ten times harder; rather, they land on the less-
> > devastated continent of Australia which--due to an "earth crust
> > displacement" event (i.e. a "pole shift")--is no longer strictly in
> > the southern ("australis") hemisphere... so they re-name that
> > continent "New America". They establish a "jeffersonian" republic
> > there, and seek to build a society that has all the pluses of "old
> > America" and none of (what THEY perceive to have been) the minuses
> > that helped lead to the destruction of human civilization.
> > Over the course of the next five centuries (i.e. from 2013 onwards),
> > they build up and improve upon their "utopia", which--because they
> > were citizens of the United States--they've named "New America": they
> > build "futuristic" cities--urban environments that are planned much
> > better than the sprawls we're accustomed to--and name these cities
> > after the great cities of "old America". Their capitol is called
> > Washington D.C. (but the "D.C." stands for "District of Canberra",
> > since it is built on/near the site of the rubble of the city that once
> > was Australia's capitol). They also build a "New York City" on the
> > Cape York Peninsula (the northeastern peninsula of Australia), with
> > the "York" part being an obvious connection to the Australian past and
> > their idealized American counterpart. A photograph of this "New
> > America" city--also called NEW YORK CITY--taken in 2503 A.D. is what
> > Virdon and Burke see in that old book Farrow had in his "secret cave".
> > Furthermore, the "as-tro-nauts" that Zaius had had killed--and whose
> > small grenades he had kept--are from that era, from the 26th century,
> > having returned to Earth in 3073 to find that their home planet and
> > home country had changed radically during their 5 centuries of
> > relativistic travels... and they end up dying after they make their
> > way to the Central City area--killed by Urko's troops.
> > I don't want to give away the ENTIRE plotline I've developed to
> > "explain away" the inconsistencies, but I think this gives you an idea
> > of one way (i.e. MY way) that there can be the original New York City
> > wiped out in 2006 A.D. by a Nuclear War (that which is seen in
> > BENEATH) and ALSO a completely different city existing five centuries
> > later with the exact same name--it having been founded by Americans
> > who survived the 2006 Nuke War and wished to re-create America
> > according to their own idealistic philosophy. You'll notice that in
> > that "photo" of NYC in 2503, there isn't even one familiar landmark
> > that can be correlated to the REAL city we know. Think of a movie like
> > "The Fifth Element", which has a great CGI shot of NYC in the future--
> > it's OUR NYC, but with additions: you still can see familiar buildings
> > amongst the "new" stuff built in between our present and the future
> > date when that flick takes place. But in the TV show photo that Virdon
> > and Burke see there isn't even one familiar looking building; is it
> > likely that the entire city of New York would be torn down and then
> > rebuilt from the ground up? or isn't it more likely that if it WERE
> > the same North American NYC we would see parts of the old city there,
> > surrounded by newer additions?
> > I hope that answers some of your questions; thanks for asking them!
> >
> > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > EARTH-TIME 3-24-2002
> >
> >
> >
> >

>You're forgetting about the two Zaiuses--the former was in the

>
> It is specious. Assuming that the two 'Zaiuses' are related, to which there is no supporting evidence, then why couldn't a small group have moved back at some point. Maybe there was trade and commerce between the two communities. That's still easier to believe than the mutants going 3000 miles with a nuclear missile.
>

>

> >
> > *** Unless I'm mistaken, in BATTLE (the movie) the tree-fort
> village
> > ruled by Caesar is never named; it is only in the novelization that
> > David Gerrold refers to it as "Ape City"--with Aldo intending to re-
> > name it "Gorilla City" after he kills Kolp. The PLANET/BENEATH city
> is
> > called "Ape City" only by Brent ("... to break out of Ape
> City...");
> > never in those two movies is it actually referred to by anybody by
> > name, and you'll recall that when Brent chats with Zira and
> Cornelius
> > the name of their city is never stated. Brent calls it "Ape City"
> when
> > describing how he got to the Mutants' underground realm--and what
> ELSE
> > was he supposed to call it? Simia? Pithecopolis? Monkeyville? The
> fact
> > is, given only what is presented in the actual films, we do not
> know
> > the actual name of the city of the Apes in PLANET/BENEATH. We only
> > know what Brent calls it.
> > Incidentally, the "city" founded by Caesar was a "tree-fort" motif--
> > and NOT the "carved stone" type. If we are meant to think that the
> > city in PLANET is the same as the site from BATTLE, then where did
> all
> > that carved rock come from?
>
> If "Central City" is the same as Caeser's city then where did all the
> carved rock there come from??
>
> > The "desert approaches" to Caesar's
> > village don't look like the Forbidden Zone seen in PLANET; in
> BATTLE,
> > it's all pretty much just a desert-dune landscape prior to the
> ruins
> > of Breck's wiped-out city--which does NOT look anything like the
> > remains of New York City seen by Ursus' army.
>
> You really don't see that much of the landspace in 'Battle' and your
> forgeting about 2000 years of landscape shifts. Plus, New York is a
> big place. They may have simply been approaching it from a different
> angle.
> If the 'Fordibben City' was on the west coast; how come it was never
> mentioned in the TV series?
>

>
> > Besides, nowhere in New
> > York City is there an "Archives" building on "the corner of Breck
> and
> > Ackerman"--there ARE no streets in NYC with those names. Breck's
> city
> > had a street/avenue named after him--which suggests that it was a
> > NEWLY CONSTRUCTED CITY in 1991, and that Breck had the
> power/influence
> > to have a street named after him. That doesn't sound like the Big
> > Apple to me.
>
> Now you're getting specious again. The Ackerman street was a tribute
> to Forest Arkerman of Famous Monsters [***So what? It's still a detail in the movie.] and there is an Ackerman street
> in New York City, as well as in dozens of cities all over the
> country. There are also many Breck streets & avenues as well. But no
> Breck or Ackerman intersect anywhere. (I just looked it up on
> Microsoft Streets & Trips.) Plus, you didn't mention 11th Avenue,
> there is one in New York as well as San Francisco and many other
> cities. So I hardly think this is conclusive proof.

>*** No supporting evidence? It's just a coincidence >that the
>orangutans in charge of their respective societies' >governments just
>HAPPEN to have the same name, that they just HAPPEN to >have the same
>secret knowledge which is kept from the masses? Even >if the TV
>orangutan had been given a different name, it would be >PROBABLE that
>he had some kind of connection with the PLANET Zaius, >given that they
>both knew the same things about Man, and feared humans >as a result of
>that knowledge. The fact that their names are >identical makes the
>probability that much greater.

>And "trade and commerce between the two communities"? >For Pete's sake,
>they're restricted to HORSE-AND-BUGGY levels of >transportation! You
>think it's likely that two pre-industrial societies >could trade with
>each other across the length of the continent? You see >caravans hiking
>back and forth from the near-NYC area to the >California coast, each
>group trading with the other? What the hell would they >trade? Their
>civilizations are stuck in a techno-phobic rut, each >Zaius eschewing
>the advances of "dangerous" technology (Zaius has Urko >burn down the
>treasure trove in "The Legacy"). Do they trade >clothing goods? Exotic
>animals? Rare food stuffs? Across California-Nevada->Kansas-Missouri-
>Kentucky-Virginia-Delaware-etc etc? Pick the shortest >route from
>California to New York--it's STILL thousands of >miles... by HORSE. You
>think this is "easier to believe"? To each their own.

>The "desert approaches" to Kolp's city of ruins >doesn't look anything
>like what Taylor & the Gang trek through on their 3->days-journey (or
>so) through the Forbidden Zone. Remember all those >buttes, mesas,
>cavernous valleys?

>Remember the vista seen of the destroyed NYC
>skyline in BENEATH? It begs the question: why can't >you see any
>familiar NYC skyscrapers looming in the distance in >the outdoor scenes
>in CONQUEST?

>New York City is replete with major automobile
>thoroughfares (i.e. streets and avenues used by cars, >trucks, buses,
>etc.). There isn't ONE damned car in CONQUEST (except >for the truck
>that carts the ape shipments from the dockyards to Ape >Management).
>Nobody drives cars in Breck's city (in CONQUEST); you >can't hear any
>background noises of car engines humming along, or >horns honking,
>nothing. Why not? Can you escape that background noise >in NYC? Sure,
>Kolp's invasion force utilizes old cars and jeeps and >a bus, but you
>never saw these vehicles in use in the actual city. >Sometime after the
>Nuke War the "mutants" salvaged any and everything >they could get
>their mitts on, probably from outlying areas >outside "city limits".

>*** Is there a "Breck and Ackerman" intersection in >any of the 5
>boroughs of NYC? No. That's conclusive enough for me <that it ISN'T in New York City.

----- Original Message -----

From: JamesA1102@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 2:24 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline

OK After going frame by frame through Battle, I have postive proof the Forbidden City was New York.
Please note the mutant in the left hand forground.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> Sent: Monday, 25 March 2002 0:58
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Melkor" <melkor@m...> wrote:
> > >fans; it works for me and for the project I'm working on, and it's
> > >consistent with the details given in the "canon" of 5 films and 14 TV
> > >episodes. And that's all it NEEDS to be, as far as I'm concerned.
> > >
> By saying that your story needs to be "consistent with the details
> given in the canon of 5 films and 14 TV episodes", aren't you inviting
> people on the list to point out problems they see in the consistency?
> Do you accept the picture of New York City 500 years from now seen in
> the TV pilot as "canon", or do you choose to ignore that?
> >
> > -Tom
>
> *** Am I inviting people on the list to point out problems they see in
> the consistency? Sure; I myself see the problems in the consistency
> between the TV show and the movies (and from movie-to-movie). As I've
> said a bunch of times before, the "modus operandi" I'm using--a method
> that some of you out there might think is nuts, but whatthef*ck--is to
> "unflub the flubs" as much as is humanly possible. In other words, I
> fully ADMIT that there are a number of blatant mistakes in the
> "details"--but I'm treating those "mistakes" as ACCURATE DETAILS which
> CAN be reconciled... as long as I can get inventive enough. Read my
> past lengthy postings regarding the 3978-vs-3955 chronometer readings,
> and you'll get an idea of how I'm taking two seemingly irreconcilable
> details and coming up with an explanation as to how they BOTH can be
> accurate. Unfortunately, there are a few details that are absolutely
> impossible to "correct"/unflub, such as the already-blown-off hatch on
> Taylor's ship (prior to Dodge pushing the button which causes said
> hatch to blow off said ship).
> In regards to the "NEW YORK CITY: 2503" picture from "Escape From
> Tomorrow", no, I'm not choosing to ignore it, and I DO consider it
> "canon"; if you'll check out some of my prior postings, you'll find
> that the way I'm going to explain that particular detail dovetails
> with a number of other details in the TV show (the grenades Zaius got
> from the "as-tro-nauts" who landed more than 10 years before 3085, the
> holographic projector & computer caches stashed away by "the
> Scientists" just before the Nuclear War, etc.). In a nutshell, my
> scenario has it that "the Scientists" acquire a fairly accurate
> forewarning of the impending Nuke War--since they have enough time to
> set up various computerized collections of "the sum of all human
> knowledge" in a number of vaults in cities throughout the world
> (including in Oakland). These "Scientists" are able to survive the
> Nuke War in an orbiting scientific research station orbiting the
> planet--they witness the devastation from orbit. Eventually, they
> descend to the surface (some 6 or 7 years later), but NOT in North
> America--which is so ravaged by nuclear radiation that survivability
> there would be ten times harder; rather, they land on the less-
> devastated continent of Australia which--due to an "earth crust
> displacement" event (i.e. a "pole shift")--is no longer strictly in
> the southern ("australis") hemisphere... so they re-name that
> continent "New America". They establish a "jeffersonian" republic
> there, and seek to build a society that has all the pluses of "old
> America" and none of (what THEY perceive to have been) the minuses
> that helped lead to the destruction of human civilization.
> Over the course of the next five centuries (i.e. from 2013 onwards),
> they build up and improve upon their "utopia", which--because they
> were citizens of the United States--they've named "New America": they
> build "futuristic" cities--urban environments that are planned much
> better than the sprawls we're accustomed to--and name these cities
> after the great cities of "old America". Their capitol is called
> Washington D.C. (but the "D.C." stands for "District of Canberra",
> since it is built on/near the site of the rubble of the city that once
> was Australia's capitol). They also build a "New York City" on the
> Cape York Peninsula (the northeastern peninsula of Australia), with
> the "York" part being an obvious connection to the Australian past and
> their idealized American counterpart. A photograph of this "New
> America" city--also called NEW YORK CITY--taken in 2503 A.D. is what
> Virdon and Burke see in that old book Farrow had in his "secret cave".
> Furthermore, the "as-tro-nauts" that Zaius had had killed--and whose
> small grenades he had kept--are from that era, from the 26th century,
> having returned to Earth in 3073 to find that their home planet and
> home country had changed radically during their 5 centuries of
> relativistic travels... and they end up dying after they make their
> way to the Central City area--killed by Urko's troops.
> I don't want to give away the ENTIRE plotline I've developed to
> "explain away" the inconsistencies, but I think this gives you an idea
> of one way (i.e. MY way) that there can be the original New York City
> wiped out in 2006 A.D. by a Nuclear War (that which is seen in
> BENEATH) and ALSO a completely different city existing five centuries
> later with the exact same name--it having been founded by Americans
> who survived the 2006 Nuke War and wished to re-create America
> according to their own idealistic philosophy. You'll notice that in
> that "photo" of NYC in 2503, there isn't even one familiar landmark
> that can be correlated to the REAL city we know. Think of a movie like
> "The Fifth Element", which has a great CGI shot of NYC in the future--
> it's OUR NYC, but with additions: you still can see familiar buildings
> amongst the "new" stuff built in between our present and the future
> date when that flick takes place. But in the TV show photo that Virdon
> and Burke see there isn't even one familiar looking building; is it
> likely that the entire city of New York would be torn down and then
> rebuilt from the ground up? or isn't it more likely that if it WERE
> the same North American NYC we would see parts of the old city there,
> surrounded by newer additions?
> I hope that answers some of your questions; thanks for asking them!
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 3-24-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> Sent: Monday, 25 March 2002 1:49
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > Not compared to others he doesn't. And while I don't always agree
> > with Rory, at least there is a logic to his arguments. Some of the
> > theories here are way to conveluted.
>
> *** Your spelling of "convoluted" ["conveluted"] is rather convoluted.
> Same goes for the word "too" ["to"]
> At least you didn't write "weigh two conveluted"...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 9:36 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Patrick's musings.

In a message dated 3/24/02 12:04:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

I don't think of my "method" as a fetish

I don't know about your 'method,' but what you're doing is very much a fetish.  It's fan fetish, like going to conventions all the time or having collections that take up all your life and eat up your money, or wearing Spock ears to work.  It's a mental fixation, perhaps even an illness.  Hey, it takes one to know one, and I think you need help, Patrick.

-- Rory


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 1:44 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Aaron (Error In) Spelling


> Now hang on a second here, this is a POTA website, not a spelling bee.
>
> You Americans can't spell colour anyway, so you can't talk.
>
> You should all migrate to Australia, but please don't name it New America
> (and I live in Canberra (D.C) so I could put you up here for a while).
>
> Patrick, well done by not thinking the Capital City is Sydney!
>
> Now where is that girl who you all insulted for her spelling ability? Did
> you know she had cerebral palsey, you insensitive pricks?
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> > Sent: Monday, 25 March 2002 1:49
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > > Not compared to others he doesn't. And while I don't always agree
> > > with Rory, at least there is a logic to his arguments. Some of the
> > > theories here are way to conveluted.
> >
> > *** Your spelling of "convoluted" ["conveluted"] is rather convoluted.
> > Same goes for the word "too" ["to"]
> > At least you didn't write "weigh two conveluted"...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> It's official. "Apes" didn't win any Oscars. Yeah, yeah, it wasn't
> nominated but I kinda hoped the Governor would call or something
and they'd
> announce, "There's been a mistake! "Planet of the Apes" is Best
Picture".
> Then Burton and Zanuck could drive up in a special limo and Zanuck
could
> say, "The combination of Tim Burton and "Planet of the Apes" just
spells
> "Oscar" to me". But it didn't happen.
> Well, there's always 2005, when "Apes 2", directed by Ron Howard,
wins Best
> Picture. Can't
wait! - -
> Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 1:44 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Aaron (Error In) Spelling
>
>
> > Now hang on a second here, this is a POTA website, not a spelling
bee.
> >
> > You Americans can't spell colour anyway, so you can't talk.
> >
> > You should all migrate to Australia, but please don't name it New
America
> > (and I live in Canberra (D.C) so I could put you up here for a
while).
> >
> > Patrick, well done by not thinking the Capital City is Sydney!
> >
> > Now where is that girl who you all insulted for her spelling
ability? Did
> > you know she had cerebral palsey, you insensitive pricks?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> > > Sent: Monday, 25 March 2002 1:49
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > > > Not compared to others he doesn't. And while I don't always
agree
> > > > with Rory, at least there is a logic to his arguments. Some
of the
> > > > theories here are way to conveluted.
> > >
> > > *** Your spelling of "convoluted" ["conveluted"] is rather
convoluted.
> > > Same goes for the word "too" ["to"]
> > > At least you didn't write "weigh two conveluted"...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

I thought the direction of last nights awards was pretty shoddy as well.  When John Williams was doing his medly, the camera work cheated the home audience from seeing the credits for the song clips being played.  Some sub-titling would have been nice there folks.

It was very nice to seem an old friend nab two trophies for his first trip to the awards.  Rich Taylor (from NZ) has to be one of the nicest, most talented people I've ever met and worked with in my worldy travels.  Kongrats to him, his WETA team (dozens of which transplanted from LA to help make the film), and the entire Lord Of The Rings cast and crew for their much deserved Oscars.

And, "in Memorium", thank you to Mr. John Chambers for all of his contributions to film and television.

Brian Penikas

MTotsky@... wrote:

Did I blink? Did I miss something on tonight's Academy Awards show? How could
they, during their annual "In Memorium" segment, fail to mention John
Chambers' passing? Someone screwed up there.

For me it was a big year for Hollywood deaths. One of my favorite actors
(Jack Lemmon), my favorite TV actor (Carroll O'Conner), my favorite animation
director (Chuck Jones), and one of my musical heroes (George Harrison) all
passed away and all got a mention on tonight's Oscars. How could my favorite
movie makeup man not?

Matt

------------------------ ---------------------~-->
Access Your PC from Anywhere
It's Easy. It's Fast. - Free Download
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---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 10:03 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] John Chambers Gets Screwed


> Did I blink? Did I miss something on tonight's Academy Awards show? How
could
> they, during their annual "In Memorium" segment, fail to mention John
> Chambers' passing? Someone screwed up there.
>
> For me it was a big year for Hollywood deaths. One of my favorite actors
> (Jack Lemmon), my favorite TV actor (Carroll O'Conner), my favorite
animation
> director (Chuck Jones), and one of my musical heroes (George Harrison) all
> passed away and all got a mention on tonight's Oscars. How could my
favorite
> movie makeup man not?
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 11:30 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] John Chambers Gets Screwed

How could
they, during their annual "In Memorium" segment, fail to mention John
Chambers' passing? Someone screwed up there.

Did Charles Shultz die after Jan. 1st?
I hope so.  Sure it was TV but they had a movie or two.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 4:58 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Check out FAVORITE CHARLTON HESTON MOVIES

PLANET OF THE APES needs your votes!!!!


Click here: FAVORITE CHARLTON HESTON MOVIES

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

--- In pota@y..., MTotsky@a... wrote:
> Did I blink? Did I miss something on tonight's Academy Awards show?
How could
> they, during their annual "In Memorium" segment, fail to mention
John
> Chambers' passing? Someone screwed up there.
>
> For me it was a big year for Hollywood deaths. One of my favorite
actors
> (Jack Lemmon), my favorite TV actor (Carroll O'Conner), my favorite
animation
> director (Chuck Jones), and one of my musical heroes (George
Harrison) all
> passed away and all got a mention on tonight's Oscars. How could my
favorite
> movie makeup man not?
>
> Matt

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> <A HREF="http://www.bigapplecon.com/unflash.htmlquot;>Click here: Big
Apple Comic Conventions</A>
>
> Hey, I just want to give this heads up to anyone living in NYC here
(hint,
> hint, James) but at the Big Apple Comic Convention this weekend
will be Linda
> Harrison, and she'll be in the company of Joe Russo who'll be
signing (what
> else?) his book. Maybe if James' lungs are all cleaned out he can
go.
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Patrick
>
> Do ANYTHING, but don't call Australia "New America", please! Are
you
> punishing me for something?
>
> Michael
>

--- In pota@y..., Brian <apeman@a...> wrote:
> Yeah, didn't it seem a bit "thin" on the memorial stuff? Almost as
if it was
> only half-finished. It definately lacked the emotionally moving
editing that
> the memoriums of the past have had. The one that they had in 99
that ended with
> Roddy's young image was amazing.
>
> I thought the direction of last nights awards was pretty shoddy as
well. When
> John Williams was doing his medly, the camera work cheated the home
audience
> from seeing the credits for the song clips being played. Some sub-
titling would
> have been nice there folks.
>
> It was very nice to seem an old friend nab two trophies for his
first trip to
> the awards. Rich Taylor (from NZ) has to be one of the nicest,
most talented
> people I've ever met and worked with in my worldy travels.
Kongrats to him, his
> WETA team (dozens of which transplanted from LA to help make the
film), and the
> entire Lord Of The Rings cast and crew for their much deserved
Oscars.
>
> And, "in Memorium", thank you to Mr. John Chambers for all of his
contributions
> to film and television.
>
> Brian Penikas
>
> MTotsky@a... wrote:
>
> > Did I blink? Did I miss something on tonight's Academy Awards
show? How could
> > they, during their annual "In Memorium" segment, fail to mention
John
> > Chambers' passing? Someone screwed up there.
> >
> > For me it was a big year for Hollywood deaths. One of my favorite
actors
> > (Jack Lemmon), my favorite TV actor (Carroll O'Conner), my
favorite animation
> > director (Chuck Jones), and one of my musical heroes (George
Harrison) all
> > passed away and all got a mention on tonight's Oscars. How could
my favorite
> > movie makeup man not?
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Patrick
>
> Do ANYTHING, but don't call Australia "New America", please! Are
you
> punishing me for something?
>
> Michael

--- In pota@y..., MTotsky@a... wrote:
> Did I blink? Did I miss something on tonight's Academy Awards show?
How could
> they, during their annual "In Memorium" segment, fail to mention
John
> Chambers' passing? Someone screwed up there.
>
> For me it was a big year for Hollywood deaths. One of my favorite
actors
> (Jack Lemmon), my favorite TV actor (Carroll O'Conner), my favorite
animation
> director (Chuck Jones), and one of my musical heroes (George
Harrison) all
> passed away and all got a mention on tonight's Oscars. How could my
favorite
> movie makeup man not?
>
> Matt

>
> In a message dated 3/21/02 5:24:24 PM, LordTZer0@A... writes:
>
> << Or Armando could have taken Poloroids of the proud parents, but here's my
> theory...some lazy coustume designer got zero budget. >>
>
> Brilliant T...I think we can all agree that's the real reason why the
> costumes are the same, the fun is trying to think of a way work it in the
> story.
>
> Matt

> In a message dated 3/24/02 12:04:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > I don't think of my "method" as a fetish
> I don't know about your 'method,' but what you're doing is very much a fetish. It's fan fetish, like going to conventions all the time or having collections that take up all your life and eat up your money, or wearing Spock ears to work. It's a mental fixation, perhaps even an illness. Hey, it takes one to know one, and I think you need help, Patrick.
> -- Rory

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2002 8:11 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Original vs. Altered Timeline


> --- In pota@y..., MTotsky@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 3/21/02 5:24:24 PM, LordTZer0@A... writes:
> >
> > << Or Armando could have taken Poloroids of the proud parents, but
here's my
> > theory...some lazy coustume designer got zero budget. >>
> >
> > Brilliant T...I think we can all agree that's the real reason why the
> > costumes are the same, the fun is trying to think of a way work it in
the
> > story.
> >
> > Matt
>
> *** There's just one problem (well, probably more than one, but here's
> THIS particular one): when Breck first questions Armando about his
> runaway chimp and Armando denies any connection with Zira and
> Cornelius, Armando says, "You can question my Circus hands!" (i.e. the
> grunts who help put on an "old-time circus" show). Then Breck replies,
> "Oh, we will."
> If Breck's goons, Kolp and Hoskyns, had access to Armando's circus
> personnel, they also would have had access to all his property--and he
> probably could have gotten some federal judge to issue a warrant to
> search any and all of Armando's belongings, wherever they might be
> (say, in his winter quarters near the Everglades, etc.). If Armando
> had drawings or polaroids of Ape costume designs drawn by Cornelius,
> that would look rather suspicious; WHY would he have them unless he
> had some sort of connection with Cornelius? Since Armando himself
> suggests that Breck have his circus hands investigated--knowing that
> any search would probably not end there--it's safe to say that he
> wouldn't have any incriminating "fashion designs" lying around for
> investigators to latch onto.
> Unless, perhaps, Armando destroyed all such incriminating pictures
> prior to taking his starring attraction into the "city" to roust up
> some business for his old-hat circus, perhaps in anticipation of any
> possible suspicions that the Authorities might begin to have for
> whatever reason...
> But I doubt it.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 3-24-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
You illustrate a good point. Where are all the inhabitants of
Australia when these space people come to take over. Did the space
people exterminate & enslave them? If they were all killed off in the
war, while inhabitants in North America survived, how could Australia
be a better place to colonize?
This is the problem with overly complex explanations to continuity
errors. The best thing to do is ignore them. If you must try to
explain them, keep it simple. Say that the picture was just an artist
conception of what New York might look like in the 26th century. A
one-line answer that dismisses the problem and is less easy to poke
holes through.

*** What happens between the Nuke War (in 2006) and the "descent" of
the American scientists from their orbital space station in 2013 A.D.?
During this interval of 6 to 7 years, human civilization has been
wiped out. How many people would survive the collapse of industry, of
agriculture, of commerce, etc.? It's been said that we're all just
three meals away from anarchy or revolution; how long would any
stored-away food supplies last? Let's say some survivalist types
stored away a couple YEARS' worth of non-perishable food, had a
cistern full of 1000 liters of water, all tucked away in a well-built
bomb shelter. Let's say he survives the Cataclysm--what then? Does he
plant crops? Does he know HOW to farm? Does the average "joe" know how
to plant crops and harvest them?
We in the modern world are ill-suited to survival of a major nuclear
war, primarily because those who specialize in the actual production
of the most important necessity (food) are an extremely small
percentage of society. When the supermarkets and convenience stores
are raided by the Survivors, when all the pre-packaged goods are used
up, what are they supposed to eat THEN? Do they hunt? When they're out
hunting, what's to prevent their desperate neighbors from pilfering
whatever's left behind at the bomb shelter?
In all probability, even IF a place like Australia were to suffer
minimal damage from nuclear bombing, the survivors would be in such
fierce competition for whatever food is left that it would be "every
man for himself". And when they run out of food, in all likelihood
they would resort to cannibalism. (Read Niven and Pournelle's novel
"Lucifer's Hammer" for an interesting take on the "post-Catastrophe"
scenario--the cannibalism aspect is particularly compelling in it).

So, after some 6 years of ever-worsening conditions, the "survivors"
in Australia would be few indeed, and those few would probably be in a
state of savagery. The de-orbiting American scientists would have to
either fight off attacking savages or convince those savages that
their presence is NOT competition for them but, rather, a "godsend" of
sorts, since their expertise will help to produce more food for ALL
the people there. They would not endeavor to enslave the native
Aussies because their political ideology is--as I mentioned earlier--
that of "Jeffersonian republicanism". In other words, the ideals upon
which the United States of America was founded are the guiding
principles for their policy-making decisions. They would NOT re-
institute slavery (which would be a step backward), but they WOULD use
force (even deadly force) in order to defend themselves.

You ask, "How could Australia be a better place to colonize?", and the
answer should be evident: if Australia suffers relatively little
exposure to nuclear explosions and the resultant fallout and
irradiation of the environment, then it would be a preferred location
on which to land from their space station. Having been in orbit during
the all-out War, they would have seen the explosions--they would
probably have filmed it from orbit (from multiple news-satellites, to
cover the entire surface, and not just the hemisphere over which they
were); they are scientists, and they'd know what happens at "ground
zero" and in neighboring proximities because of the past 50+ years of
nuclear testing. Even if they were to know that, say, 18% of the
continent of North America were relatively unscathed, they might also
suspect that the few survivors would flock to those "safe" zones, and
probably deplete them of edible animals and plants. And wind-borne
fallout might make even those green areas uninhabitable, since fallout
is invisible and would act as a poison when breathed in.

I don't think of my scenario here as "overly complex explanations"
(your term), since any explanation should be grounded in plausible
details--complexity is unavoidable. And it begs the question: why is
there an advanced technological society flourishing into the 26th
century (in the TV pilot), when we know that modern civilization is
destroyed between CONQUEST and BATTLE? Where DO those "as-tro-nauts"
come from, with their little grenades and whatnot? They aren't
Russians (else they'd call themselves "cosmonauts", if they spoke
English at all). They aren't ANSA astronauts, since neither Virdon nor
Burke recognizes the grenades--knowing only that whoever made them
represented a technological civilization that Virdon hoped he could
make use of in order to "reverse the process" and get back home to
Sally and Chris. SOMEHOW, a human civilization survives the nuclear
war, and somehow they prosper for at least 500 years, since a picture
of their "New York City" (which is not and cannot be the REAL,
destroyed NYC) exists in 2503. The technological civilization which
printed the book that Farrow kept from the fire was advanced enough to
build futuristic skyscrapers, etc.; chances are that they, too, had
the ability to develop a space program in time. I think that by
placing them on the Pole-Shifted continent of Australia (renamed "New
America"), it opens the door to an essential contrast-and-comparison
with the "old America" that New America's founders remembered; the
"Scientists" who saw their country (and most of the rest of the world)
blasted by nuclear warfare couldn't help but think about WHY such a
war happened. What was America like prior to the War? After ESCAPE,
the USA descends into an authoritarian, totalitarian police state. In
1983 there's a plague which wipes out all the dogs and cats on Earth
(those wondering about Arno's dog in "Escape From Tomorrow" might ask
themselves--as I did--if there could have been dogs and cats up in an
orbiting space station, or even a covert military Moon base, which
survived and would not be risked back on the plague-infested planet);
the death of the pets would have a dire effect psychologically on the
human psyche. It's been said that when mankind domesticated the dog
and cat (from wild ancestral species), the symbiotic relationship that
developed helped to spur on the civilizing impetus in the
psychological make-up of the human race--when we created pets, their
presence helped to civilize us. The loss of that "master/pet"
relationship--and the unconditional love that pets give to humans--
would have helped to further the transformation of the human mind into
a harsher, more embittered state. After the beginning of the Slave
revolt in 1991, with the human race faced with a burgeoning population
of simian competitors, there would be last-ditch efforts by the
governmental authorities to maintain the status of human culture, in
the face of the on-going threat that the apes will "plot and plan for
the inevitable day of Man's downfall".
With the USA in a state of Martial Law, with the Constitution being
suspended by the "emergency powers" of an authoritarian government,
with increasing violence in the streets (what amounts to a "race war",
even though the "races" in question are actually different species),
the "Jeffersonian republican" Scientists up in their orbiting station
would lament the transformation of their country--a land that once
stood for Freedom, for the idea of "inalienable rights", for the
virtues of a society with limited government--NOT a "big brother"
exerting total control over everything and everyone. When these
Scientists see the end result of the Orwellian transformation of
America--the culminating nuclear war--they wouldn't be able to help
but conclude that the Result was caused by the abandonment of the
principles that allowed America to prosper prior to the time when
things started to go downhill.
The "as-tro-nauts" whom Zaius has killed (in my scenario, New American
astronauts from the 26th century) were "different from our humans" as
Zaius tells Galen; they were killed because they had "feelings of
independence" and would have encouraged other humans (i.e. the natives
under simian domination) to be "unlawful" in their desire/demand for
equality. The "as-tro-nauts" represented the same ideals that America
was founded on--but which were buried when the USA got nuked into
oblivion; there had to have been those who "carried the torch" of
those ideals beyond the War. The picture of a "New York City" in 2503,
in an advanced technological society, coupled with the mysterious
"scientists" from "The Legacy" who prepared for (and, hence, could
survive) the nuclear war that they knew was inevitable, gives us
(well, gives ME) a foundation on which to build a hypothetical
"utopian" society--what I think OUR society should make itself into,
going down a path preferable to the path that "old America" went down
(which led to devastation).

Aside from considerations stated previously (i.e. "Cape York
Peninsula" being re-created into the "New York City" of New America,
etc.), there are other reasons I have for concocting this particular
scenario. One of them is as an homage of sorts to Huxley's novel "Ape
and Essence", which involves a team of Scientists from the unscathed
haven of New Zealand traveling to California years after a nuclear war
has wiped out the rest of civilization. For those of you who haven't
read it, "Ape and Essence" is as much--perhaps even MORE--of a
"source" for the 1968 film of PLANET OF THE APES as Boulle's novel
was. The story told by Serling and Wilson is ostensibly based on
Boulle's source novel, yet the theme of "Man's failings leading to
nuclear destruction" is NOT from Boulle--yet is the primary theme of
Huxley's novel. Serling and Wilson had to have read "Ape and Essence",
I'm sure, before the final script was written, because there are
"fingerprints" of Huxley's book all over the POTA movie.
My former-Australia "New America" scenario is intended, in part, to be
reminiscent of Huxley's book; it's also an opportunity to design (like
"Sim-Civilization") what I think would be an Ideal society--obviously,
a prospect that will provoke a lot of people, especially those who
have diametrically opposite opinions regarding what constitutes an
"ideal" society. Arthur C. Clarke's last Odyssey-novel ("3001: The
Final Odyssey") represents his "utopian" viewpoint, which several
reviewers took issue with. I invite controversy as well--that's where
arguments begin... exchanges of ideas and philosophies that others can
weigh in the balances of their own minds. My own philosophies of
"Americanism" are what I think represent the best hope for building an
optimal future for all humankind (not just Americans)--and I don't
expect everyone to agree with me, naturally. But we live in a time of
Crisis the likes of which make even the struggle against Nazism pale
in comparison... because of the potential devastation our enemies
might unleash, whether Nuclear, Chemical, or Biological. Defeating the
Nazis (and the kamikaze Japanese) was no walk-in-the-park; the
prospect of an all-out war waged by fanatical Muslims against the
"decadent Satan" they see us as is unsettling to say the least--and it
may indeed come down to that. I, for one, do not want to see the
spread of regimes like those that have devastated Nigeria, Somalia,
Morocco, Iran, etc. There are fanatical Muslims out there who want to
establish "islamic law" (!) all over the globe--and ESPECIALLY in the
USA. Their religion seems to call for the forced conversion of
"infidels"--which, if not successful, will only end in their settling
for our death; hell, their crowds chant "Death to America!" and they
burn our flags... what are we SUPPOSED to think of them?
I tend to be pessimistic regarding human nature, and I would like to
believe that the current state of affairs will just "blow over"
sometime soon... but I suspect that there are historical forces at
work which will lead (perhaps inevitably) to an all-out confrontation
with the forces of fanatical Islam... and I doubt if we'll get through
it without the use of nuclear weapons. I think it will come down to
that, and the news of the past couple of weeks seems to bear me out on
this (i.e. our military's decisions regarding upgrading our nuclear
weaponry, etc.).
Our problems should have solutions out there somewhere. I philosophize
about it constantly, and in all sorts of ways I'm trying to convince
people I come into contact with that my philosophies (regarding
Government, Religion, Society, etc.) are a sound basis for solutions
to the "doom and gloom" problems our country and the world itself
face. My fictional utopia, "New America", will exemplify those
philosophies, and THAT is the main reason I'm going down that road.
The "details" presented in the POTA episodes "Escape From Tomorrow"
and "The Legacy" are the "foot-in-the-door" for pursuing this idea. I
don't expect every POTA fan out there to "agree" with my scenario, or
with my philosophical reasons for developing it. But a man's gotta do
what a man's gotta do--even when others get "a bug up their ass" in
response to it.

Incidentally, the Mac cluster where I do all my Net surfing can't get
the "download" of the BATTLE scene which allegedly proves that Breck's
city is in New York. Could somebody out there tell me what scene this
supposed "proof" is in, and describe this piece of evidence, so that I
can check it out myself? Quite frankly, I doubt if the one "in charge"
of this city (if it IS New York) would be a "Governor" (the capitol of
the state of New York is Albany--that's where the Governor should be).
It would be "Mayor Breck" instead. But it ain't.

> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Patrick
> Do ANYTHING, but don't call Australia "New America", please! Are > you punishing me for something?
> Michael

*** Hey, Michael--there are guys in the tourism bureau of the state of
North Dakota (where I happen to live) who want to change the name of
the state to "Dakota", thinking that it will somehow convince people
who live elsewhere in the country that this part of the country is NOT
some sort of wasteland tundra! It doesn't help that the Coen brothers'
film "FARGO" was set in the winter--I suspect that most people get
their idea of what North Dakota is like from that movie.

As I said before, the change-of-name from "Australia" to "New America"
is done--in part--because of an "Earth-crust-displacement" event (i.e.
a "Pole shift") which causes the continent of Australia to shift
northward, so that the westernmost portion (including Perth) will end
up being north of the new Equator--most of the rest of the continent
being in the southern tropical band (hold a globe with one finger on
Jerusalem and the other on its antipodes--imagining that the new axis
goes through those two points--and then imagine an Equator sweeping
through North America, South America, Antarctica, Australia, western
China, etc.). Since Australia won't specifically be in the southern
hemisphere anymore, then it wouldn't make sense to continue to call it
by a name which means "south" in Latin ("australis"). And since the
"Scientists" who stash the holographic projector in Oakland belong to
a "think-tank" with offices in the Oakland Science Institute
(according to Virdon), then wouldn't it make sense that members of
that group (who are Americans) would want to "re-shape" their new home
into an "image" of their lost home country? I particularly dig the
idea of Cape York Peninsula being transformed into a high-tech
megalopolis called "New York City" due in part to the word "York"
which they have in common. And "Washington, District of Canberra" was
kind of clever, if I do say so myself. Hey, Mike, I dig it; I'm sorry
if you don't, but please don't think that I'm doing it to punish you
in some way. Hell, the ties our two countries have should make both of
us feel some sort of kinship: we're both offshoots of Great Britain
(Australia's still part of the Commonwealth, but it's not a "colony"
anymore), we both fought against Fascism in WWII, we both have
countries noted for their rugged wilderness regions (and the types of
people who make a life in such locales), and we're both currently (and
unfortunately) suffering widespread wildfires. Yow! And don't forget
that post-Apocalypse movies seem to be a predilection for the USA
(i.e. PLANET OF THE APES, DAMNATION ALLEY, LOGAN'S RUN, TERMINATOR,
etc.) and for Australia, too (MAD MAX, THE ROAD WARRIOR, etc.) How
many other countries have made "after-the-nuclear-war" movies that can
hold a candle to what our two nations have produced?

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 3-26-2002

> Armando could be bluffing, thinking they'd just let him go. When he's told, "Meanwhile, you'll remain in custody" he's got quite a hangdog look.
> Maybe he forgot about them. Maybe he found them among Caesar's things and had them put in a safe place. By the way, Polarroids wouldn't be an explanation of why Caesar got the gorilla and orang costumes right. If you want to take that line further, why would Armando say to question his circus hands. Is he 100% sure no one will talk? He's bluffing, man, and they called him on it. So, what's your explanation for why "Battle's" costumes are so dead on? And don't say budget or "fate"! Blooing! - - Jeff

> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 March 2002 3:37
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: New America
>
> And "Washington, District of Canberra" was kind of clever, if I do say so

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 3:15 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] chimpette officially a word, kinda

I disagree with your definition Pentaclese!  Zira is every bit as cute as Ari
is!
When Taylor went looking for something better than Man, he found her.  The
wonderful, intelligent and lovely, self sacrificing, execution for heresy and
treason risking, Zira!  No wonder you are an agnostic dragon!  You have not
learned what every Japanese running from a giant fire-breathing radioactive
lizard knows and screams! 

GOD'S ZIRA! 


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> --- In pota@y..., MTotsky@a... wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 3/21/02 5:24:24 PM, LordTZer0@A... writes:
>>
>> << Or Armando could have taken Poloroids of the proud parents, but here's my
>> theory...some lazy coustume designer got zero budget. >>
>>
>> Brilliant T...I think we can all agree that's the real reason why the
>> costumes are the same, the fun is trying to think of a way work it in the
>> story.
>>
>> Matt
>
> *** There's just one problem (well, probably more than one, but here's
> THIS particular one): when Breck first questions Armando about his
> runaway chimp and Armando denies any connection with Zira and
> Cornelius, Armando says, "You can question my Circus hands!" (i.e. the
> grunts who help put on an "old-time circus" show). Then Breck replies,
> "Oh, we will."
> If Breck's goons, Kolp and Hoskyns, had access to Armando's circus
> personnel, they also would have had access to all his property--and he
> probably could have gotten some federal judge to issue a warrant to
> search any and all of Armando's belongings, wherever they might be
> (say, in his winter quarters near the Everglades, etc.). If Armando
> had drawings or polaroids of Ape costume designs drawn by Cornelius,
> that would look rather suspicious; WHY would he have them unless he
> had some sort of connection with Cornelius? Since Armando himself
> suggests that Breck have his circus hands investigated--knowing that
> any search would probably not end there--it's safe to say that he
> wouldn't have any incriminating "fashion designs" lying around for
> investigators to latch onto.
> Unless, perhaps, Armando destroyed all such incriminating pictures
> prior to taking his starring attraction into the "city" to roust up
> some business for his old-hat circus, perhaps in anticipation of any
> possible suspicions that the Authorities might begin to have for
> whatever reason...
> But I doubt it.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 3-24-2002

>>

I switched my email address and I'm testing the new account with these groups. No reply needed.

Blah blah blah yackitty smackitty...

>Quite frankly, I doubt if the one "in charge"
> of this city (if it IS New York) would be a "Governor" (the capitol

> the state of New York is Albany--that's where the Governor should

> It would be "Mayor Breck" instead. But it ain't.