I dunno; I guess they'd look pretty much the same as the movie characters
but more cartoony. The underdwellers would be cool. Maybe the astronauts
Bill and Jeff? There's an ape commander in the last episode with a
moustache. That'd be kinda funny.
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:24 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Medicoms - Cartoon Series Characters


> Jeff
>
> Which of the Return characters would you like to see immortalised in
> Medicom format?
>
> What does the rest of the group think about including cartoon
> characters?
>
> Michael
>
> --- "whitty@..." <whitty@...> wrote:
> > >Exclusively Battle: 3
> > >
> >
> > Actually BATTLE only has two medicoms, Aldo and Caesar. And Caesar
> is
> > a variant. The distribution is:
> >
> >
> > AGREED ON BATTLE - WHAT WAS I THINKING?
> >
> > BUT I THINK THE REST SHOULD GO:
> >
> > PLANET (2): Astronaut Taylor, Lucius.
> >
> > BENEATH(2): Urses, ape soldier variant.
> >
> > BOTH PLANET AND BENEATH (8): Cornelius + Variant (you could argue
> > that this is a Roddy face so it is exclusive to Planet but I think
> > both is appropriate since Roddy appears in the beginning flashback
> > bit - however the variant should have been the Beneath actor),
> Zira,
> > Dr. Zaius, Ape Soldier, Savage Taylor, Nova, Lawgiver statue.
> >
> > ESCAPE(3): Cornelius, Zira, Milo Astro Apes
> >
> > CONQUEST(3): Caesar, gorilla slave, chimp slave variant
> >
> > BATTLE(2): Caesar variant, Aldo
> >
> > TV(2): Urko, Ape Soldier
> >
> > SO, TOP HEAVY WITH PREFERENCE SHOWN FOR FIGURES FROM BOTH THE FIRST
> > MOVIES WOULD SUM IT UP.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ ---------------------
> ~-->
> > Buy Stock for $4
> > and no minimums.
> > FREE Money 2002.
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -~->
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

There was Albina in "Beneath" (played by Natalie Trundy) and the Asian
mutant Alma in "Battle", played by Frances Nuyen (a friend of Natalie
Trundy). Playing "6 Degrees of Natalie Trundy" would be easy. Kevin Bacon
has nothing on her.
Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Identity Crisis


> Another question.
>
> Was Albina the female mutant in Battle?
>
> Did the female mutant in Battle/Beneath have a name?
>
> Michael
>
>
> --- "whitty@..." <whitty@...> wrote:
> > Thank you Mr Cougar.
> >
> > Were there any other orangs in that room?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- mlccougar@... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 5/23/2002 4:53:36 PM Central Standard Time,
> > > whitty@... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Who are the 3 wise monkeys (ie names) from Planet - is it
> > Honorious, Maximus
> > > > and President?
> > >
> > > They are: Maximus, The President of the Assembly, and Dr. Zaius
> > that did that
> > > "pose" in the scene.....
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ ---------------------
> ~-->
> > Buy Stock for $4
> > and no minimums.
> > FREE Money 2002.
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/9_IolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> -~->
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 5/23/2002 8:45:49 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Another question.

Was Albina the female mutant in Battle?

Yes, her name was Albina.

Did the female mutant in Battle/Beneath have a name?

The Mutant woman in "Battle" was named Alma.

<.html

>Walked over to the New York Public Library--it wasn't open yet, but I
>got to see the exterior, just like Brent and Nova when they exited the
>cylindrical airshaft in BENEATH.

I saw this last year for the first time. I was walking along 5th Avenue and
didn't know it was going to be there. When I first saw it I was thinking it
looked very familiar and yet I knew I had never seen it before. Then I realized
I saw it a million times on Beneath the Planet of the Apes. I sat down on the
steps and saw a Burger King across the street, and wondered if Brent and Nova
saw the Burger King ruins. I actually did go inside the library but it wasn't
the type of library with lots of books you could browse through.

-Tom

And now it's come full circle; my "Ape" stuff is at the local library so
it's a library where you can browse through "Apes".
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] New York Public Library


>
> >Walked over to the New York Public Library--it wasn't open yet, but I
> >got to see the exterior, just like Brent and Nova when they exited the
> >cylindrical airshaft in BENEATH.
>
> I saw this last year for the first time. I was walking along 5th Avenue
and
> didn't know it was going to be there. When I first saw it I was thinking
it
> looked very familiar and yet I knew I had never seen it before. Then I
realized
> I saw it a million times on Beneath the Planet of the Apes. I sat down on
the
> steps and saw a Burger King across the street, and wondered if Brent and
Nova
> saw the Burger King ruins. I actually did go inside the library but it
wasn't
> the type of library with lots of books you could browse through.
>
> -Tom
>

I have an old mask POTA mask I bought years ago. I think I
bought it around 1975 for a Halloween Party. (I am looking for an
old photo that would have a DATE on it to verify when I went to
that Party.
I am trying to AUTHENTICATE it as I believe it to be a SERIES 1
Don Post Mask of Cornelious.
IF you have one or KNOW HOW to IDENTIFY one please tell me
everything you know. IT IS NOT 'stamped' with any 'Don Post'
label but I believe the First Series mask was not.
I t has hair that is '"folded under" and has upper and lower teeth
that were molded SEPERATE and GLUED in. It does have some
'MARKINGS' on the neck but no clear label. It has been in a box
for years and seems in excellent shape. HOW MUCH IS THIS
WORTH ?
THANK ALL YOU HUMANS FOR YOUR KNOWLEDGE ON THIS
MATTER. email me : eddywood@...

--- In pota@y..., Darren Stockford <darren@s...> wrote:

>
> >I could tell you all the hows, whys and wherefors Pat, but

you're so smart

> >you figure it out.
>
> <Grin>
>
> I actually have a lot of time for Patrick and his mission to

'unflub' the

> 70s Apes - I find it quite entertaining and stimulating (I concede

that

> he's prone to over-egging the pudding, but hey, I don't have to

eat it

> all). Which is why I was surprised, and a little disappointed, to

see him

> giving up so easily on the ending of Burton's movie. I mean, if

he can

> dream up a scenario to explain the beginning of Escape From

The Planet Of

> The Apes (which isn't that different from the Thade scenario

when you think

> about it), then surely anything is possible.
>
> - Darren

*** If I have "given up so easily on the ending of Burton's movie",
it is because, quite frankly, I did NOT like Burton's movie. It
bothers me that his flick gets to carry the same name as the
magnificent flick that came out in 1968--Burton's movie does
NOT deserve it. Just as Will Smith's "Wild Wild West" movie is an
unwatchable travesty that bastardizes the classic Robert Conrad
TV show... and just as Ralph Fiennes' "The Avengers" movie is a
horrifically-begotten abortion based on a great 1960's
predecessor...so, too, is Burton's "Planet of the Apes" a huge
disappointment for me. Just about the only good thing about its
release is the subsequent release of the POTA TV series on
DVD, which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.

But, hey, what-the-f#@!, I'll give it a whirl and "concoct" a
semi-plausible explanation for the "Thade scenario". Just for
"shits and giggles," mind you.

1.) Leo takes off in the intact pod that his non-talking chimp pal
has just successfully landed, leaving that little astrochimp
behind with Ari & Gang.

2.) After he is somehow released from his confinement in the
"Calima" ship, Thade, who knows that Leo crashed in a similar
flying pod, somehow coerces some of the still-enslaved humans
in the "Ape City" area to retrieve Leo's pod (and its hatch, in case
it blew off like Taylor's did--I can't remember if Leo's pod HAD a
similar detachable hatch). The slaves tie together a huge net
and drag the small lake/big pond and fish up Leo's pod... as well
as the two dead gorillas (hmmm... what might the on-looking
gorillas think about THAT, one might wonder).

3.) Even though Leo's astrochimp can't speak a syllable of
English, Thade is somehow able to "communicate" nonverbally
with him, getting him to "fix" the defunct pod despite its having
been submerged for a week or so. If Astrochimp can fly the
damn things, it isn't much of a leap to figure that they can also do
routine maintenance, now, is it? Let's assume that there's a
tool-kit tucked away--perhaps under the seat. Astrochimp pulls
out the "monkey" wrench (har har har) and gets to work...

4.) Maybe... just maybe... the materials the pod (and, especially,
its COMPUTER) is made out of are exotic, "futuristic",
non-corrosive polymers; maybe there wouldn't be any iron (or
other rust-prone elements) involved in the manufacture of this
exotic vehicle.

5.) Thade--perhaps with the help of some other smart
monkey--finds out how to "talk" to the pod's computer
(presumably, the computer would be "user-friendly", taking voice
commands and talking back in a pleasant "Hal-9000"-like tone).
Through this "asking-and-answering" session, Thade finds out
that Leo's pod came through a Time warp from the Past...

6.) Thade, knowing (from after interrogating Ari & Limbo) that the
Apes on Leo's world are nearly extinct (except for those which
they've been using for experiments, etc.), gets in a hissy fit. He
wants to "save" the Apes on Leo's world, somehow... but How?

7.) Thade asks the intelligent computer if it is possible somehow
to fly the pod up into the sky... and go BACK through Time...
returning through the wormhole back the way Leo first came. The
computer innocently tells him "Yes" (presumably, the computer
would have a backlog library of theoretical physics from which to
conclude this).

8.) Thade, then, asks if it is possible to not only return to the Past
Time from where Leo first flew the pod... to an even EARLIER
Past Time. The computer crunches some numbers... and gives
a polite "Yes" to his query.

9.) Thade straps his hairy ass in the seat, buckles his buckles,
and tells the pod's computer to fly up into the sky... And
somehow the pod has the fuel (solar? cold fusion?) to not only
reach orbital velocity, but also to escape the pull of the Ape
Planet... and Thade orders the pod to find the spacewarps
through which it earlier flew... and it does so, and he zips through
the wormholes, ending up in near-Earth space in the Past... an
earlier Past than the beginning of the movie. Since Leo was only
going back to the "moment" when the movie began, Thade is in
the Past of that Time, and is somehow able to land (autopilot?)
on Earth...

10.) And, somehow, Thade keeps his cool when confronted with
the Humans running the show on Earth... he pretends to be
friendly with them, and gets treated to the same sort of welcome
that the pleasant Zira and Cornelius received (prior to Hasslein's
meddling). He surreptitiously begins a "fifth-column" movement
to overthrow the Humans, having somehow rallied the remaining
Apes in the same way that Caesar did in CONQUEST. Evidently,
Thade breeds with enough mute chimp chicks to father a line of
talking, intelligent apes... and their posterity later on
commemorates his achievement by replacing Abe Lincoln's
head with Thade's. How the gorillas and orangutans acquire
speech is a mystery... unless we figure that the "1st generation"
of talking, intelligent chimps learns how to inject "transgenic"
DNA from talking chimps (and/or humans) into the cells of gorilla
and orangutan donors, so that through artificial insemination
those other two species of apes can begin producing talking
monkeys.

How's that, Darren?

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-25-2002

*** All the same, it would be nice to see actual photos of the joint
(exterior and interior) from all angles (especially INSIDE ones,
looking down the subway tunnels--if, that is, there actually ARE
tunnels, and not only on-the-surface rail-lines).
Do you have any photos of Queensboro Plaza? If so, could you
post them in the "Photos" section of this site? I know you have
the wherewithal to upload photos, since you've done so a
number of times in regards to our debates over the Map and the
Scrolls. So... could you? Please?
Or are you holding out, just to rattle me? C'mon, James... be a
pal! Don't let our disagreements be a reason for you to be
"disagreeable". Go on and take some snapshots and post them
here... and I'll thank you profusely, sincerely, and
whole-heartedly. What d'ya say?

Patrick Michael Cougar Mellencamp Herbert Walker Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-25-2002

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> Queensboro Plaza is an elevated outdoor station that looks
nothing
> like the underground station seen in Beneath. You didn't miss
much
> by not going there.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton"
<patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> wrote:
> > Because it would have eaten up too much of our limited time,
I
> also
> > couldn't go over to see the Queensboro Plaza subway station
over
> in
> > Queens. Damn! Maybe somebody reading this, who either
lives in the
> NYC
> > area or can get there easily, can go to Queensboro Plaza and
take
> a
> > bunch of photos of it (exterior, interior, etc.) and post them on
> this
> > site... maybe? It would be interesting to compare the REAL
subway
> > station with the remnants of it seen in BENEATH. Please,
somebody,
> > take me up on this!

> They could then sell a conversion kit with 3 sitting astro apes

(from the deleted beginning - hey, how come they didn't go into
suspended animation?).

*** The ship from ESCAPE is not and could not possibly be the
same ship as the one from PLANET, for a number of reasons:

1.) There is no "escape hatch" on its near-nosecone area (where
Taylor and his crew crawled out of, when they abandoned their
ship).
2.) Taylor's ship (from PLANET) did not have a gull-wing door on
its port side, the way this ESCAPE ship does (as well as Virdon's
ship).
3.) The only surviving pics I've seen of the ESCAPE ship's interior
show 3 seats side-by-side, and NOT the 4 seats seen in the
beginning of PLANET (with 2 on the port side and 2 on the
starboard side, the two front seats being slightly higher up due to
the "topology" of the ship's interior).
4.) There is absolutely no room on the ESCAPE ship for any
hibernation chambers: it's just a cockpit with an aft bulkhead
(like Virdon's ship).

Ergo... it's not the same ship. Yet it WAS referred to as "the one
commanded by Colonel Taylor" (the President himself says
this). The only way that BOTH the ship from PLANET and the
ship from ESCAPE (as well as the ship from BENEATH) could
be "Taylor's ships" is if they were like the ships in the beginning
and ending of Boulle's novel: "launches", or SHUTTLECRAFT
which were part of a larger "mothership". Just as Captain Kirk's
ship, the U.S.S. ENTERPRISE has several smaller shuttlecraft
along for the ride (the GALILEO, the COPERNICUS, etc.), so too
does Taylor's MAIN ship have smaller shuttles attached to it: the
3 ships we see in PLANET, BENEATH and ESCAPE, all of which
have landed on the surface of the planet, having detached from a
still-orbiting mothership.
We know that the PLANET "shuttlecraft" sinks into Dead Lake,
and that the BENEATH shuttle crash lands on the ground in the
Forbidden Zone. We also know that the ship which Milo found
had to have been landed INTACT (since it's in working order, for
the Ape-onauts to later take off in). Where did Milo find it?
Cornelius tells the Commission that Milo found it "on our
seaboard". In BENEATH, Cornelius refers to the Ocean as "the
Sea" (differentiating it from "the Lake"). So, then, Milo found the
third shuttle from Taylor's orbiting mothership on the beach, on
the shore of the Ocean. "...on our Seaboard..." This can NOT be
referring to the same ship we saw sink in PLANET, in Dead
LAKE.

Just in case any of you out there haven't encountered my
"unflubbing" scenario yet...

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-25-2002

*** How about the Command Post from CONQUEST? I like
those cylindrical hallways connecting various places in Breck's
city (intended, doubtlessly, to be a "connection" to the ventilation
shafts through which Brent and Nova get from the subway
tunnels to the New York Public Library... which had to have been
added AFTER the Nuclear War). They could put in a phone on
the wall (like the one where MacDonald first hears Caesar talk)
of the tunnel/corridor.

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-25-2002

--- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Yes - the Cathedral with Bomb is another must have and the
ape
> management is a good idea.
>
> How about a treehouse from Battle?
>
> Forgot to mention a figure of young Cornelius - another must.
>
> Michael
>
>
> --- "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > How about the cathedral with the Alpha-Omega bomb and
Ape
> Management
> > with all the high tech torture chambers.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > Any other ideas for playsets?
> > >
> > > Michael

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:

> We paid our respects at the Dakotah, and at Strawberry Fields,

across

> the avenue in Central Park. "Imagine"... I often imagine there's

no

> religion--it's easy if you try...
>
> You did all that and didn't pay your respects to Kim Hunter?
> Shame on you!

*** 1.) I didn't know that Kim Hunter was in NYC.
2.) Even if I had known it, I was pressed for time as it was, and
my brother and our friend had places that they wanted to see. I
had to be compromising on which sites we all would go to.
3.) John Lennon's dead (the "Imagine" plaque on the ground at
Central Park's "Strawberry Fields" memorial). Unless I've been
kept in the dark, I believe Kim is still among the living (yeesh, I
sure as hell HOPE so!). Just because I'm working on a magnum
opus PLANET OF THE APES mega-novel doesn't mean that she
would be open for a visit from a fan. If she had been at a sci-fi
convention (or autograph signing event), and if I had lucked out
and gone to it, then, perhaps, I could've "paid my respects" to
her.

But I sure as hell wouldn't bother her at her home. I have too
much respect for her privacy. So... "ixnay on the ame-shay"!

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-25-2002

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:

> Who are the 3 wise monkeys (ie names) from Planet - is it

Honorious, Maximus

> and President?
>
> Help me out here!!!
>
> Michael
>

*** The "3 wise monkeys" were (from their right-to-left) Dr.
Maximus, the President of the Academy, and Dr. Zaius. Honorius
was the prosecutor, and wasn't seated at the table (where the
three other orangutans were when they did their "See no evil,
Hear no evil, Speak no evil" bit).

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
wrote:

> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Who are the 3 wise monkeys (ie names) from Planet - is it
> Honorious, Maximus
> > and President?
> >
> > Help me out here!!!
> >
> > Michael
> >
>
> *** The "3 wise monkeys" were (from their right-to-left) Dr.
> Maximus, the President of the Academy, and Dr. Zaius.

Honorius

> was the prosecutor, and wasn't seated at the table (where the
> three other orangutans were when they did their "See no evil,
> Hear no evil, Speak no evil" bit).
>
> Patrick

*** Oops. I guess everybody else already answered before I
chimed in. Sorry for the redundancy.

Patrick

P.S. Unless... we re-interpret "wise" in its OTHER meaning (as
in "what are you... some kinda wise guy or somethin'?" "Wise" as
in "wise ass" or "wise acre". Who might the Three Wiseass
Monkeys be?
1.) Lucius ("What did you expect? An "ape's new suit"?" Sure
sounds like a wise-ass comment to me...)
2.) Julius ("You know what they say: 'Human-See, Human-Do'.")
3.) Zira ("Well... maybe they're not." By suggesting that the "Bible"
of the Apes might not be worth the paper it's printed on,
especially in the tone-of-voice she uses, and coupled with her
suggestion that Zaius try out the "toy [which] floats on the air",
Zira shows a propensity for being somewhat of a "wise-ass".
Check out her overly polite clapping during Ursus' speech, and
her audacious unlocking ("double-locking") of the door of the
wagon in which Brent & Nova are being carted off to the target
range... and her line "I must've had the hiccups!" when
Hasslein's goons were interrogating them. Not to mention the
"ballsy" move of substituting her baby chimp ("Milo") with
Heloise's baby chimp ("Salome").

Patrick

Sorry I don't have any photos of the station. And since it would be
an 2 hour subway ride to get there from were I live now; I don't
really plan on taking any anytime soon. Sorry.
Even if I did, you would find nothing recognizable. It's an elevated
outdoor station. There are no tunnels. The station is about two
stories above street level. It has no walls. It's just two open-air
platforms.
But as soon as I find the photos I took of Century City and the
Beverly Wilshire about 10 years ago; I'll post them for you.


--- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
wrote:

> *** All the same, it would be nice to see actual photos of the

joint

> (exterior and interior) from all angles (especially INSIDE ones,
> looking down the subway tunnels--if, that is, there actually ARE
> tunnels, and not only on-the-surface rail-lines).
> Do you have any photos of Queensboro Plaza? If so, could you
> post them in the "Photos" section of this site? I know you have
> the wherewithal to upload photos, since you've done so a
> number of times in regards to our debates over the Map and the
> Scrolls. So... could you? Please?
> Or are you holding out, just to rattle me? C'mon, James... be a
> pal! Don't let our disagreements be a reason for you to be
> "disagreeable". Go on and take some snapshots and post them
> here... and I'll thank you profusely, sincerely, and
> whole-heartedly. What d'ya say?
>
> Patrick Michael Cougar Mellencamp Herbert Walker Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 5-25-2002
>
> --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > Queensboro Plaza is an elevated outdoor station that looks
> nothing
> > like the underground station seen in Beneath. You didn't miss
> much
> > by not going there.
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton"
> <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Because it would have eaten up too much of our limited time,
> I
> > also
> > > couldn't go over to see the Queensboro Plaza subway station
> over
> > in
> > > Queens. Damn! Maybe somebody reading this, who either
> lives in the
> > NYC
> > > area or can get there easily, can go to Queensboro Plaza and
> take
> > a
> > > bunch of photos of it (exterior, interior, etc.) and post them

on

> > this
> > > site... maybe? It would be interesting to compare the REAL
> subway
> > > station with the remnants of it seen in BENEATH. Please,
> somebody,
> > > take me up on this!

.html

How's that, Darren?

I don't know yet what Darren though of it, but I thought it was complete and utter crap.  I'll say this for you Pat, you sure can write, but you don't read very well.  We gave you a plausible way for getting a brand new pod and your scenario still has Thade fishing Leo's out of the swamp. 

And if I were the Non-talking ape I'd rather be on a planet of talking apes then playing canary for talking humans.  Beats sleeping in a cage, though even the apes might have to keep him in one.  He'd be like a space ship flying caveman to them.

But back to Pat's original statements.  How does Hollywood take a good idea, put it through the "Hollywood Machine" and ruin it?  Run that for your computer for us Pat!

<.html

But I sure as hell wouldn't bother her at her home. I have too much respect
for her privacy.

Well, you never know. She so gracious she might even put with the way you
yammer on. But I'll tell you a story. One day she came down for lunch. And
everyone respected her privacy, including yours truly. She picked at a salad
looking awfully forlorn and went back to her room leaving most of the salad
behind. She might as well have stayed in her room. I'm sure since the death
of her husband she has more than ample opportunities for privacy. If I had
it to do over again I would have asked wheter or not she wanted some company.
How often do you get the chance to have lunch with Kim Hunter?

"The combination of Patrick Michael Tilton and "Planet of the Apes" just
spells magic to me."

- - - Richard D. Zanuck

You hear that, Patrick? You might just have a job.
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 7:38 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE


> --- In pota@y..., Darren Stockford <darren@s...> wrote:
> >
> > >I could tell you all the hows, whys and wherefors Pat, but
> you're so smart
> > >you figure it out.
> >
> > <Grin>
> >
> > I actually have a lot of time for Patrick and his mission to
> 'unflub' the
> > 70s Apes - I find it quite entertaining and stimulating (I concede
> that
> > he's prone to over-egging the pudding, but hey, I don't have to
> eat it
> > all). Which is why I was surprised, and a little disappointed, to
> see him
> > giving up so easily on the ending of Burton's movie. I mean, if
> he can
> > dream up a scenario to explain the beginning of Escape From
> The Planet Of
> > The Apes (which isn't that different from the Thade scenario
> when you think
> > about it), then surely anything is possible.
> >
> > - Darren
>
> *** If I have "given up so easily on the ending of Burton's movie",
> it is because, quite frankly, I did NOT like Burton's movie. It
> bothers me that his flick gets to carry the same name as the
> magnificent flick that came out in 1968--Burton's movie does
> NOT deserve it. Just as Will Smith's "Wild Wild West" movie is an
> unwatchable travesty that bastardizes the classic Robert Conrad
> TV show... and just as Ralph Fiennes' "The Avengers" movie is a
> horrifically-begotten abortion based on a great 1960's
> predecessor...so, too, is Burton's "Planet of the Apes" a huge
> disappointment for me. Just about the only good thing about its
> release is the subsequent release of the POTA TV series on
> DVD, which probably wouldn't have happened otherwise.
>
> But, hey, what-the-f#@!, I'll give it a whirl and "concoct" a
> semi-plausible explanation for the "Thade scenario". Just for
> "shits and giggles," mind you.
>
> 1.) Leo takes off in the intact pod that his non-talking chimp pal
> has just successfully landed, leaving that little astrochimp
> behind with Ari & Gang.
>
> 2.) After he is somehow released from his confinement in the
> "Calima" ship, Thade, who knows that Leo crashed in a similar
> flying pod, somehow coerces some of the still-enslaved humans
> in the "Ape City" area to retrieve Leo's pod (and its hatch, in case
> it blew off like Taylor's did--I can't remember if Leo's pod HAD a
> similar detachable hatch). The slaves tie together a huge net
> and drag the small lake/big pond and fish up Leo's pod... as well
> as the two dead gorillas (hmmm... what might the on-looking
> gorillas think about THAT, one might wonder).
>
> 3.) Even though Leo's astrochimp can't speak a syllable of
> English, Thade is somehow able to "communicate" nonverbally
> with him, getting him to "fix" the defunct pod despite its having
> been submerged for a week or so. If Astrochimp can fly the
> damn things, it isn't much of a leap to figure that they can also do
> routine maintenance, now, is it? Let's assume that there's a
> tool-kit tucked away--perhaps under the seat. Astrochimp pulls
> out the "monkey" wrench (har har har) and gets to work...
>
> 4.) Maybe... just maybe... the materials the pod (and, especially,
> its COMPUTER) is made out of are exotic, "futuristic",
> non-corrosive polymers; maybe there wouldn't be any iron (or
> other rust-prone elements) involved in the manufacture of this
> exotic vehicle.
>
> 5.) Thade--perhaps with the help of some other smart
> monkey--finds out how to "talk" to the pod's computer
> (presumably, the computer would be "user-friendly", taking voice
> commands and talking back in a pleasant "Hal-9000"-like tone).
> Through this "asking-and-answering" session, Thade finds out
> that Leo's pod came through a Time warp from the Past...
>
> 6.) Thade, knowing (from after interrogating Ari & Limbo) that the
> Apes on Leo's world are nearly extinct (except for those which
> they've been using for experiments, etc.), gets in a hissy fit. He
> wants to "save" the Apes on Leo's world, somehow... but How?
>
> 7.) Thade asks the intelligent computer if it is possible somehow
> to fly the pod up into the sky... and go BACK through Time...
> returning through the wormhole back the way Leo first came. The
> computer innocently tells him "Yes" (presumably, the computer
> would have a backlog library of theoretical physics from which to
> conclude this).
>
> 8.) Thade, then, asks if it is possible to not only return to the Past
> Time from where Leo first flew the pod... to an even EARLIER
> Past Time. The computer crunches some numbers... and gives
> a polite "Yes" to his query.
>
> 9.) Thade straps his hairy ass in the seat, buckles his buckles,
> and tells the pod's computer to fly up into the sky... And
> somehow the pod has the fuel (solar? cold fusion?) to not only
> reach orbital velocity, but also to escape the pull of the Ape
> Planet... and Thade orders the pod to find the spacewarps
> through which it earlier flew... and it does so, and he zips through
> the wormholes, ending up in near-Earth space in the Past... an
> earlier Past than the beginning of the movie. Since Leo was only
> going back to the "moment" when the movie began, Thade is in
> the Past of that Time, and is somehow able to land (autopilot?)
> on Earth...
>
> 10.) And, somehow, Thade keeps his cool when confronted with
> the Humans running the show on Earth... he pretends to be
> friendly with them, and gets treated to the same sort of welcome
> that the pleasant Zira and Cornelius received (prior to Hasslein's
> meddling). He surreptitiously begins a "fifth-column" movement
> to overthrow the Humans, having somehow rallied the remaining
> Apes in the same way that Caesar did in CONQUEST. Evidently,
> Thade breeds with enough mute chimp chicks to father a line of
> talking, intelligent apes... and their posterity later on
> commemorates his achievement by replacing Abe Lincoln's
> head with Thade's. How the gorillas and orangutans acquire
> speech is a mystery... unless we figure that the "1st generation"
> of talking, intelligent chimps learns how to inject "transgenic"
> DNA from talking chimps (and/or humans) into the cells of gorilla
> and orangutan donors, so that through artificial insemination
> those other two species of apes can begin producing talking
> monkeys.
>
> How's that, Darren?
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 5-25-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, Kim is very gracious and thoughtful. She always seems to make time for
the fans. I've written her a couple times and she's always replied. She
autographed my book at the 30th Anniversary party even though I could tell
she was eager to get the hell out of there. And it sounds like she's very
good at autographing photos through the mail (Heston too). The only problem
I had was she wouldn't do an interview through the mail. But she was very
accommodating to the "Apesfan" folks with an interview. One of the benefits
of being a New Yorker, "Hunter Country". Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <LordTZer0@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Vacation on the Planet of the Apes


> But I sure as hell wouldn't bother her at her home. I have too much
respect
> for her privacy.
>
> Well, you never know. She so gracious she might even put with the way you
> yammer on. But I'll tell you a story. One day she came down for lunch.
And
> everyone respected her privacy, including yours truly. She picked at a
salad
> looking awfully forlorn and went back to her room leaving most of the
salad
> behind. She might as well have stayed in her room. I'm sure since the
death
> of her husband she has more than ample opportunities for privacy. If I
had
> it to do over again I would have asked wheter or not she wanted some
company.
> How often do you get the chance to have lunch with Kim Hunter?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>How's that, Darren?

It was a noble attempt, if only for the fact that you spent time on it at
the request of li'l ol' me. :o)

I think that the simplest solutions are the most plausible, though. Perhaps
Leo was knocked unconscious during the pod's landing (or even during his
journey back through the wormhole), and the film's final scenes are a
stress-induced dream / nightmare (remember Carrie?).

It would've been nice if, right at the end, after the credits had stopped
rolling (so only a few people got to see it), Leo woke up with a start,
still in the pod (so that it was clear that only the end had been a dream),
and all was well on Earth. If any sequel feels the need to "explain" the
end of Burton's film, that would be one way to do it.

>quite frankly, I did NOT like Burton's movie

Ah, I did. It has its flaws, for sure, but I really like it.

- Darren

.html

The only problem I had was she wouldn't do an interview through the mail.

Hmmm...I interviewed her over the phone, no problem.  She is very good about replying to correspondence though.  Maybe that's just too much writing.

<.html

.html
The explanation is simple, but I'll let you guys suss it out.  I am glad the other pods rescue idea was thought of without me having to tell anyone.  Maybe someone else will get this without my help as well.  If not I'll send a few hints.  I hate dream explanations by the way.  That's a little to pat, some punt intended.  But for me that's just a cheap literary device they pull out of their ass after having written themselves into a corner!

I think that the simplest solutions are the most plausible, though. Perhaps
Leo was knocked unconscious during the pod's landing (or even during his
journey back through the wormhole), and the film's final scenes are a
stress-induced dream / nightmare (remember Carrie?).

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 4:13 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE

The explanation is simple, but I'll let you guys suss it out.  I am glad the other pods rescue idea was thought of without me having to tell anyone.  Maybe someone else will get this without my help as well.  If not I'll send a few hints.  I hate dream explanations by the way.  That's a little to pat, some punt intended.  But for me that's just a cheap literary device they pull out of their ass after having written themselves into a corner!

I think that the simplest solutions are the most plausible, though. Perhaps
Leo was knocked unconscious during the pod's landing (or even during his
journey back through the wormhole), and the film's final scenes are a
stress-induced dream / nightmare (remember Carrie?).

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 4:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Vacation on the Planet of the Apes

The only problem I had was she wouldn't do an interview through the mail.

Hmmm...I interviewed her over the phone, no problem.  She is very good about replying to correspondence though.  Maybe that's just too much writing.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Not sure if this information has been posted here or not.

The Fall (Prequel novel to Planet of the Apes 2001)
by William T. Quick

Publisher: Harper Entertainment
ISBN: 0060086203 (to be published June 2002)

Book Description:
The starship Oberon is searching for its AWOL pilot when it
crash-lands on an unknown planet, leaving all but a handful of
its crewmembers dead. And those who remain are not alone in
this strange, inhospitable world. A savage insectile race waits
just below the surface, massing to obliterate the unwanted
invaders. And the Oberon's last human survivors must look to
unlikely allies for help: the apes they carried onboard. Using
controversial gene technology, the starship's scientists hope to
transform the primates into a powerful army -- strong, agile,
subservient...and intelligent. But the consequences of playing
God promise to be more devastating than anyone could have
ever anticipated, ushering in a dark and terrifying future that will
pit slave against master, ape against Man.

.htmlIn a message dated 5/21/02 1:10:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  Since Rory isn't here to tell us these things, I thought I'd mention that
May 21 is the 35th Anniversary of the first day of filming the original
POTA. They filmed that day in Paige, Arizona, filming the actors in the
desert; Dodge passed out from the heat. 33 years later, Burton's POTA also
filmed in  Paige, Arizona their first day. Etc. - - - Jeff

Oh, I'm still around.

-- Rory<.html

In a message dated 5/26/02 5:44:09 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
writes:

<< Oh, I'm still around.

-- Rory >>

Welcome back, pal.

-Joe

Well.......SAY something!

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CheeseGOTAS@... [CheeseGOTAS@...]
> Sent: Monday, 27 May 2002 8:44
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Back in the Day
>
>
> In a message dated 5/26/02 5:44:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
> Haristas@...
> writes:
>
> << Oh, I'm still around.
>
> -- Rory >>
>
> Welcome back, pal.
>
> -Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Vic. Sounds like a latter day "Conquest"...But an "insectile
race"?? Etc. - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "tracer_vic" <tracer_vic@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 1:18 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] The Fall - PotA2001 prequel novel


> Not sure if this information has been posted here or not.
>
> The Fall (Prequel novel to Planet of the Apes 2001)
> by William T. Quick
>
> Publisher: Harper Entertainment
> ISBN: 0060086203 (to be published June 2002)
>
> Book Description:
> The starship Oberon is searching for its AWOL pilot when it
> crash-lands on an unknown planet, leaving all but a handful of
> its crewmembers dead. And those who remain are not alone in
> this strange, inhospitable world. A savage insectile race waits
> just below the surface, massing to obliterate the unwanted
> invaders. And the Oberon's last human survivors must look to
> unlikely allies for help: the apes they carried onboard. Using
> controversial gene technology, the starship's scientists hope to
> transform the primates into a powerful army -- strong, agile,
> subservient...and intelligent. But the consequences of playing
> God promise to be more devastating than anyone could have
> ever anticipated, ushering in a dark and terrifying future that will
> pit slave against master, ape against Man.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Back in the Day

In a message dated 5/21/02 1:10:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  Since Rory isn't here to tell us these things, I thought I'd mention that
May 21 is the 35th Anniversary of the first day of filming the original
POTA. They filmed that day in Paige, Arizona, filming the actors in the
desert; Dodge passed out from the heat. 33 years later, Burton's POTA also
filmed in  Paige, Arizona their first day. Etc. - - - Jeff

Oh, I'm still around.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

They should make Burton sit in a corner and he can't leave until he comes up with a PLAUSIBLE explanation.

I have a plausible explanation, Jeff.<.html

.html

I always figured eventually she'd come out here to LA and I could do a proper one.

She doesn't care much for LA.  She did have some friends out there to say with to make it more bearable.  But she only goes there if she has work.  I belive the last time she was there was for an episode of The Education of Max Bickford.<.html

.html

  Five words after a month? That's not Rory. Gentlemen, we have a spy in our midst! Etc. - - - Jeff

If it is Rory he can tell us about the discs!

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/26/02 9:34:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

If it is Rory he can tell us about the discs!

What discs?<.html

In a message dated 5/26/02 9:51:54 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@...
writes:

<< > If it is Rory he can tell us about the discs!

>

What discs?

>>

Hmm...

-Joe

.html

What discs?

You're right!
It is an imposter!
The real Rory would remember the DVDs.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/02 12:36:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

What discs?

You're right!
It is an imposter!
The real Rory would remember the DVDs.


What are you guys talking about?  That there are Five-Star DVDs of APES on the way?   Not that I've heard or read.

-- Rory<.html

.html 

What are you guys talking about?  That there are Five-Star DVDs   

of APES on the way?

Oh right, that was Alex. Nevermind then.
<.html

.html  

What are you guys talking about?  That there are Five-Star DVDs   

of APES on the way?

Oh right, that was Alex. Nevermind then.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
<.html

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:

> Sorry I don't have any photos of the station. And since it would

be

> an 2 hour subway ride to get there from were I live now; I don't
> really plan on taking any anytime soon. Sorry.
> Even if I did, you would find nothing recognizable. It's an

elevated

> outdoor station. There are no tunnels. The station is about two
> stories above street level. It has no walls. It's just two open-air
> platforms.
> But as soon as I find the photos I took of Century City and the
> Beverly Wilshire about 10 years ago; I'll post them for you.

*** That would be great.

Given your description of Queensboro Plaza, one must wonder
why the guys who decided to include it (as a remnant of our era
still somewhat existing in 3955) did so at all. I know
that--according to Bill Creber (in "BEHIND THE POTA")--the folks
at 20th Century Fox (California) had their "New York people" take
a bunch of photos which were then cut apart with x-acto knives
and pasted back together (with extra airbrushing done to
embellish the "ruin" look)... pictures of various famous
landmarks, like the New York Stock Exchange, the New York
Public Library, Radio City Music Hall, etc. But why--if Queensboro
Plaza never did have tunnels--did Fox portray it as if it DID? You'd
think that somebody who had actually BEEN to New York City
would have clued them in on this prior to their building the
subway station set.
Just out of curiosity, if one were to take the subway from
Queensboro Plaza to Grand Central Station (or the nearest
station to it), where exactly does the actual tunnel begin? After all,
the subway line goes under the East River (and under Roosevelt
Island, which is in East River), so at some point the subway line
must descend underground. Whereabouts does it do this?
Anybody know?
As far as reconciling this curious situation, we should perhaps
assume that the Queensboro Plaza in "the POTA universe" at
some point was rebuilt (when?) so as to have actual tunnels
extending towards Manhattan and elsewhere. I'm gonna have to
make another trip to NYC, and insist on getting over to Queens to
check out the details.

Might there be anybody else out there besides James who can
get to the Queensboro Plaza area and take some pictures, and
post them on this site? Inquiring minds want to know...

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002

>The Fall (Prequel novel to Planet of the Apes 2001) by William T. Quick

A couple of kids' Apes books have just been released, too. I bought them
last week but haven't got round to reading them yet. They're also prequel
stories - both by John Whitman, who wrote the kids' novelisation of POTA 2001.

Here are the back cover blurbs.

#1: Force: It's twelve years before Captain Leo Davidson of the space
station Oberon crash-landed on the planet of the apes. Attar is a teen just
coming up in the military, and Ari is his good friend - sympathetic to the
human cause, yet loyal to her simian friends as well. Ari embarks upon an
investigation into a puzzling gap in ape history - a period known as the
Dark Age - only to uncover the deadly virus that caused it and bring it to
life again. Can humans and apes learn to work together against this common
enemy? Or will this devastating force of nature threaten to wreak a new
dark period on the planet?

#2: Resistance: It's twelve years before Captain Leo Davidson of the space
station Oberon crash-landed on the planet of the apes. Border patrols are
growing more aggressive, with hundreds of humans from the tribes near Ape
City being taken captive. Despite this, Daena's mother, Sarai, is
determined to reach a truce. Realising this can only happen if humans and
apes stand on equal footing, she resolves to free the human slaves to work
on building a human city to rival the brilliance of Ape City. Sarai already
has one powerful ape ally, Ari, but will this be enough to free the humans
and establish a lasting peace between apes and humans?

Amazon have a couple more books in the series listed for release in August
- #3: Rule and #4: Extinction.

The books come with pull-out character cards in the middle. Force features
Attar and Ari, while Resistance features Daena and Colonel (yep, Colonel)
Thade.

Best wishes -

Darren

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:

>
> > How's that, Darren?
> >
>
> I don't know yet what Darren though of it, but I thought it was

complete and

> utter crap. I'll say this for you Pat, you sure can write, but you

don't

> read very well. We gave you a plausible way for getting a brand

new pod and

> your scenario still has Thade fishing Leo's out of the swamp.
>
> And if I were the Non-talking ape I'd rather be on a planet of

talking apes

> then playing canary for talking humans. Beats sleeping in a

cage, though

> even the apes might have to keep him in one. He'd be like a

space ship

> flying caveman to them.
>
> But back to Pat's original statements. How does Hollywood

take a good idea,

> put it through the "Hollywood Machine" and ruin it? Run that for

your

> computer for us Pat!

*** Mr. (? Mrs.? Ms.?) LordTZer0 (...what IS your real first
name?!), I posted my "Burton scenario" prior to reading through
all the intervening postings--amongst which were the ones
mentioning the "other 2 pods" that are ASSUMED to still be
around (are they actually visibly there on the crashed Oberon? I
don't recall seeing them; they MIGHT still be there... they might
NOT be. Your scenario assumes that at least one of them IS still
there; I guess that mine assumes they AREN'T there, and that
Thade, then, requires a fix-up of Leo's submerged pod).
Is this "pod fishing" bit the only thing you think is "complete and
utter crap"? Or is the ENTIRE scenario I cooked up on the quick
"crappy" in your estimation? Don't worry about hurting my
feelings--insofar as this "Burton scenario" goes, I don't have any
emotional investment in it, since I did not really care for the flick
in question, regardless of its hard-to-swallow ending.

Regarding the "Hollywood Machine" ruining good ideas, I'd have
to agree that for the MOST part, that is how it works: unoriginal
non-talents green-light projects based on past successes... and
end up producing lesser product. Although I liked the design of
the actual time machine in the "remake" that's out in theaters
now, the movie itself is so flawed from a logistical perspective
that I found myself disappointed yet again.
One "remake" that actually DID pleasantly surprise me was
"Ocean's 11". As fun as the original one was, it was not a very
good movie: it was fun because it was Sinatra, Dino, Sammy
(and the rest) doing their thing in Vegas. Sort of like how "HELP!"
was not a very great movie... but was supremely entertaining
because it was the Beatles having a rollicking adventure: the
adventure didn't really matter all that much--it was the BEATLES
having it that made it fun. The newer version of "Ocean's 11" was
a much better film, with a better plot, better characters, and better
motivations driving them. Clooney and Pitt (and the rest) were
perhaps not quite as much of a presence as Sinatra and his
Pack were, but they were more than adequate portraying their
characters. I liked it; the only thing that could have improved the
movie for me would be... some music (even if only in the end
credits) from Frank, Dean, & Sammy, as a tribute to them. After
all, nobody would've ever thought of remaking their movie in the
first place had it not starred those guys.

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002

.html

But why--if Queensboro Plaza never did have tunnels--did Fox portray it as if it DID?

Perhaps they wanted to show that even above ground and elevated stations were buried by the bomb.

<.html

A couple of kids' Apes books have just been released, too.

I'm reading one now. It's okay for a kids book. But I hope The Fall is
better. Judging by Billy The Quick's novelization, it won't be.

--- In pota@y..., Darren Stockford <darren@s...> wrote:

>
> >How's that, Darren?
>
> It was a noble attempt, if only for the fact that you spent time on

it at the request of li'l ol' me. :o)

*** I'm glad you sorta liked it. :o)

>
>I think that the simplest solutions are the most plausible,

though. Perhaps Leo was knocked unconscious during the
pod's landing (or even during his journey back through the
wormhole), and the film's final scenes are a stress-induced
dream / nightmare (remember Carrie?).

>
>It would've been nice if, right at the end, after the credits had

stopped rolling (so only a few people got to see it), Leo woke up
with a start, still in the pod (so that it was clear that only the end
had been a dream), and all was well on Earth. If any sequel feels
the need to "explain" the end of Burton's film, that would be one
way to do it.

>
> >quite frankly, I did NOT like Burton's movie
>
> Ah, I did. It has its flaws, for sure, but I really like it.
>
> - Darren

*** I'm glad you were able to like it. I sure as hell wish that I, too,
could've like it... but it just feels like a wasted effort. Derivative
and irrelevant. At least the 1968 film was different from Boulle's
book for all the right reasons... and was supremely relevant for
its time. Burton's flick just doesn't have the "pulse" of our time,
the way Schaffner's film had the "pulse" of the late-60's.

Speaking of "stress-induced dreams/nightmares"... how's this
for an "explanation" for the events of the 1968 POTA?
1.) Taylor gives his "final report" and then goes into hibernation.
2.) The image of the sleeping Taylor fades to black, to the
oblivion of artificially-induced hibernation sleep...
3.) ... and everything that happens AFTER the opening credits is
all one big hibernation drug-induced HALLUCINATION. The ship
doesn't splash down into a lake... Stewart isn't a dried-up
cadaver... there are no bestial humans foraging on crops of
corn... there are no horse-riding gorillas chasing them... no real
apes actually speak English to each other... Dodge isn't really
shot dead... Landon isn't really lobotomized... the Statue of
Liberty isn't really buried up to its waist on the shore... the was no
nuclear war which supposedly wiped out human civilization on
Earth after his departure in 1972 (it was only his own
subconscious fear of such an Event that caused his own Mind to
IMAGINE that that had indeed happened!)...

Think about it: might not Taylor speculate (at some point) that
every bizarre thing he experiences after he "wakes up" from
hibernation is best explained as a weird friggin' DREAM? Isn't it
more plausible to assume that Taylor's own subconscious mind
cooked up these supposed experiences, addressing his own
state-of-mind in the process?
Taylor, perhaps, has a subconscious fear of the potential for
human inhumanity... so his own mind portrays Stewart as
DEAD--incapable of bearing any more human children to either
him or the other two astronauts.
Taylor had felt nothing but contempt for Landon... so his own
mind cooks up an "argument" between him and Landon, an
argument that Taylor, of course, will "win". And Landon will end
up being defeated in a worse way, when Taylor's mind imagines
him lobotomized.
It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for there to be intelligent
apes anywhere... especially ones that can impossibly speak not
only the English language, but also know terms like "ad hoc" and
know what a "Hopkins Manual Dexterity Test" is.

In other words... every "character" Taylor meets--from Nova (his
"ideal" woman, who can't talk and who probably ruts like a dog in
heat), to Zaius (who represents all the authority figures whom
Taylor had despised... as well as, perhaps, Himself-as-an-
authority-figure-to-others), to Lucius (who represents the
dissatisfied Youth Movement of his own time... as well as
Himself-as-a-rebellious-teenager)--are Freudian figments of
Taylor's own imagination.
When Taylor screams out, "It's a Madhouse! A MADHOUSE!!!", he
could have easily seconded that with, "... or else it's a very very
BAD DREAM that I'm having..." How does he know, beyond any
doubt, that it ISN'T a nightmare brought on by his dose of that
hibernation-inducing drug? Neither he nor Landon nor Dodge
ever asks each other whether or not they dreamed during the 12
months of hibernation, or describes any hiber-dreams.

And you all thought that "The Matrix" was a great "mind-f*ck"...!

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002

.html Mrs. Lady Patricia Roberta Tilton, or whatever the rest of your name is, once again you prove my previous statement.  You write a hellaofa lot better than you read.  My scenario does NOT assume that at least one pod is still there!  YOU assumed that it did!  I won't even do the ASSUME joke, as I'm sure we've all heard it before, but it sure does apply here.  Go back and read the posts if need be.  Or read on here.  My scenario has someone taking one of the remaining pods to rescue Leo.  If there's an Alpha pod, and there's a Delta pod, then it should be safe to ASSUME that there is at the very least a Beta pod, to say nothing of a Gamma pod.  There may even be Epsilon pod all the way up to an Omega pod for all we know.  But we do know there's an Alpha and a Delta, so there are at least two pods between them.  I'LL WRITE THIS IN CAPS SO YOU CAN READ PAST THE RAGE IN YOUR EYES FROM MY RETORT TO YOUR INSULTS.  THE POD WAS SENT OUT BEFORE THE CRASH OF THE OBERON, TO RESCUE LEO!  Now that that is established, may we move on?  As for my real name, U make one up for ME and I'll do the same for you.  From now on I'll be referring to you as JackASS.

"other 2 pods" that are ASSUMED to still be
around (are they actually visibly there on the crashed Oberon? I
don't recall seeing them; they MIGHT still be there... they might
NOT be. Your scenario assumes that at least one of them IS still
there;

<.html

OK It's just a movie not reality. I'm sure that they looked on a
Subway map, liked the name and used it. Since it's not a big
recognizable NYC landmark they took dramatic licence when designing
the set. Many films and TV series shot in New York (or sometimes
elsewhere to double for New York) do the same. There are countless
examples of characters walking down a street, turning a corner and
winding up blocks or miles away in an instant. Other than people
that live in New York no one else would realize the discrepancy. The
same is true of films shot in LA or any other big city. In the end
what real differnce does it make to the storyline; it's just a movie.


--- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
wrote:

> Given your description of Queensboro Plaza, one must wonder
> why the guys who decided to include it (as a remnant of our era
> still somewhat existing in 3955) did so at all. I know
> that--according to Bill Creber (in "BEHIND THE POTA")--the folks
> at 20th Century Fox (California) had their "New York people" take
> a bunch of photos which were then cut apart with x-acto knives
> and pasted back together (with extra airbrushing done to
> embellish the "ruin" look)... pictures of various famous
> landmarks, like the New York Stock Exchange, the New York
> Public Library, Radio City Music Hall, etc. But why--if Queensboro
> Plaza never did have tunnels--did Fox portray it as if it DID?

You'd

> think that somebody who had actually BEEN to New York City
> would have clued them in on this prior to their building the
> subway station set.
> Just out of curiosity, if one were to take the subway from
> Queensboro Plaza to Grand Central Station (or the nearest
> station to it), where exactly does the actual tunnel begin? After

all,

> the subway line goes under the East River (and under Roosevelt
> Island, which is in East River), so at some point the subway line
> must descend underground. Whereabouts does it do this?
> Anybody know?
> As far as reconciling this curious situation, we should perhaps
> assume that the Queensboro Plaza in "the POTA universe" at
> some point was rebuilt (when?) so as to have actual tunnels
> extending towards Manhattan and elsewhere. I'm gonna have to
> make another trip to NYC, and insist on getting over to Queens to
> check out the details.
>
> Might there be anybody else out there besides James who can
> get to the Queensboro Plaza area and take some pictures, and
> post them on this site? Inquiring minds want to know...
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002

Yes he did. I'm still looking forward to the uncut version of Battle
he was putting on DVD.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Yeah, didn't Alex promise us all we could buy copies of the DVDs
he was
> working on?
>
> What happened there?
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LordTZer0@A... [LordTZer0@A...]
> Sent: Monday, 27 May 2002 16:43
> To: pota@y...
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Back in the Day
>
>
>
> What are you guys talking about? That there are Five-Star DVDs
> of APES on the way?
>
> Oh right, that was Alex. Nevermind then.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/2002 9:04:20 AM Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Yes he did. I'm still looking forward to the uncut version of Battle
he was putting on DVD.

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Yeah, didn't Alex promise us all we could buy copies of the DVDs
he was
> working on?

I thought he nixed the idea because he decided it wasn't right of him to "profit" from doing so (selling dvds).

<.html

You should be able to find some pictures on the internet or in a book.
Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 5:11 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Vacation on the Planet of the Apes


> --- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > Sorry I don't have any photos of the station. And since it would
> be
> > an 2 hour subway ride to get there from were I live now; I don't
> > really plan on taking any anytime soon. Sorry.
> > Even if I did, you would find nothing recognizable. It's an
> elevated
> > outdoor station. There are no tunnels. The station is about two
> > stories above street level. It has no walls. It's just two open-air
> > platforms.
> > But as soon as I find the photos I took of Century City and the
> > Beverly Wilshire about 10 years ago; I'll post them for you.
>
> *** That would be great.
>
> Given your description of Queensboro Plaza, one must wonder
> why the guys who decided to include it (as a remnant of our era
> still somewhat existing in 3955) did so at all. I know
> that--according to Bill Creber (in "BEHIND THE POTA")--the folks
> at 20th Century Fox (California) had their "New York people" take
> a bunch of photos which were then cut apart with x-acto knives
> and pasted back together (with extra airbrushing done to
> embellish the "ruin" look)... pictures of various famous
> landmarks, like the New York Stock Exchange, the New York
> Public Library, Radio City Music Hall, etc. But why--if Queensboro
> Plaza never did have tunnels--did Fox portray it as if it DID? You'd
> think that somebody who had actually BEEN to New York City
> would have clued them in on this prior to their building the
> subway station set.
> Just out of curiosity, if one were to take the subway from
> Queensboro Plaza to Grand Central Station (or the nearest
> station to it), where exactly does the actual tunnel begin? After all,
> the subway line goes under the East River (and under Roosevelt
> Island, which is in East River), so at some point the subway line
> must descend underground. Whereabouts does it do this?
> Anybody know?
> As far as reconciling this curious situation, we should perhaps
> assume that the Queensboro Plaza in "the POTA universe" at
> some point was rebuilt (when?) so as to have actual tunnels
> extending towards Manhattan and elsewhere. I'm gonna have to
> make another trip to NYC, and insist on getting over to Queens to
> check out the details.
>
> Might there be anybody else out there besides James who can
> get to the Queensboro Plaza area and take some pictures, and
> post them on this site? Inquiring minds want to know...
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I think T (his first name is "my", as in "my Lord") believes that one of
the pods went on a search mission before the oberon crashed and will arrive
to save poor Thadie Wadie. I guess we could look for clues in Quick's new
novel, since it's about the Oberon's crash (but "insectile race"??). Steven
Soderbergh directed the new "Ocean's 11" and is currently remaking "Solaris"
for Fox; the first movie he remembers seeing was POTA.Etc. - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 5:37 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE


> --- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> >
> > > How's that, Darren?
> > >
> >
> > I don't know yet what Darren though of it, but I thought it was
> complete and
> > utter crap. I'll say this for you Pat, you sure can write, but you
> don't
> > read very well. We gave you a plausible way for getting a brand
> new pod and
> > your scenario still has Thade fishing Leo's out of the swamp.
> >
> > And if I were the Non-talking ape I'd rather be on a planet of
> talking apes
> > then playing canary for talking humans. Beats sleeping in a
> cage, though
> > even the apes might have to keep him in one. He'd be like a
> space ship
> > flying caveman to them.
> >
> > But back to Pat's original statements. How does Hollywood
> take a good idea,
> > put it through the "Hollywood Machine" and ruin it? Run that for
> your
> > computer for us Pat!
>
> *** Mr. (? Mrs.? Ms.?) LordTZer0 (...what IS your real first
> name?!), I posted my "Burton scenario" prior to reading through
> all the intervening postings--amongst which were the ones
> mentioning the "other 2 pods" that are ASSUMED to still be
> around (are they actually visibly there on the crashed Oberon? I
> don't recall seeing them; they MIGHT still be there... they might
> NOT be. Your scenario assumes that at least one of them IS still
> there; I guess that mine assumes they AREN'T there, and that
> Thade, then, requires a fix-up of Leo's submerged pod).
> Is this "pod fishing" bit the only thing you think is "complete and
> utter crap"? Or is the ENTIRE scenario I cooked up on the quick
> "crappy" in your estimation? Don't worry about hurting my
> feelings--insofar as this "Burton scenario" goes, I don't have any
> emotional investment in it, since I did not really care for the flick
> in question, regardless of its hard-to-swallow ending.
>
> Regarding the "Hollywood Machine" ruining good ideas, I'd have
> to agree that for the MOST part, that is how it works: unoriginal
> non-talents green-light projects based on past successes... and
> end up producing lesser product. Although I liked the design of
> the actual time machine in the "remake" that's out in theaters
> now, the movie itself is so flawed from a logistical perspective
> that I found myself disappointed yet again.
> One "remake" that actually DID pleasantly surprise me was
> "Ocean's 11". As fun as the original one was, it was not a very
> good movie: it was fun because it was Sinatra, Dino, Sammy
> (and the rest) doing their thing in Vegas. Sort of like how "HELP!"
> was not a very great movie... but was supremely entertaining
> because it was the Beatles having a rollicking adventure: the
> adventure didn't really matter all that much--it was the BEATLES
> having it that made it fun. The newer version of "Ocean's 11" was
> a much better film, with a better plot, better characters, and better
> motivations driving them. Clooney and Pitt (and the rest) were
> perhaps not quite as much of a presence as Sinatra and his
> Pack were, but they were more than adequate portraying their
> characters. I liked it; the only thing that could have improved the
> movie for me would be... some music (even if only in the end
> credits) from Frank, Dean, & Sammy, as a tribute to them. After
> all, nobody would've ever thought of remaking their movie in the
> first place had it not starred those guys.
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/02 9:19:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

When Taylor screams out, "It's a Madhouse! A MADHOUSE!!!", he
could have easily seconded that with, "... or else it's a very very
BAD DREAM that I'm having..." How does he know, beyond any
doubt, that it ISN'T a nightmare brought on by his dose of that
hibernation-inducing drug? Neither he nor Landon nor Dodge
ever asks each other whether or not they dreamed during the 12
months of hibernation, or describes any hiber-dreams.

And you all thought that "The Matrix" was a great "mind-f*ck"...!

Patrick Michael Tilton

Funny.  When I first viewed PLANET as an eight-year-old in '68 I can remember wondering during the running of the movie "How is this going to end?"  Since I saw Taylor go to sleep, I kind of figured it would end with him waking up (possibly to find it story starting all over again).  When the movie ended with the Statue of Liberty I was all that more shocked.

-- Rory<.html

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:

> Mrs. Lady Patricia Roberta Tilton, or whatever the rest of your

name is, once again you prove my previous statement. You write
a hellaofa lot better than you read. My scenario [*** which I have
NOT read, because I don't know where to read it: PMT] does NOT
assume that at least one pod is still there! YOU assumed that it
did! I won't even do the ASSUME joke, as I'm sure we've all
heard it before, but it sure does apply here. Go back and read
the posts if need be [***WHICH POSTS? Give me a number!
PMT]. Or read on here. My scenario has someone taking one of
the remaining pods to rescue Leo [Oh! Between Leo's
pod-stealing and disappearance and the Crash of the Oberon...
Now I get it. PMT]. If there's an Alpha pod, and there's a Delta
pod, then it should be safe to ASSUME that there is at the very
least a Beta pod, to say nothing of a Gamma pod. There may
even be Epsilon pod all the way up to an Omega pod for all we
know. But we do know there's an Alpha and a Delta, so there are
at least two pods between them. I'LL WRITE THIS IN CAPS SO
YOU CAN READ PAST THE RAGE IN YOUR EYES FROM MY
RETORT TO YOUR INSULTS [*** 1.) Your "retort" has not
enraged me, and 2.) My comments were not "insults" aimed at
you. PMT]. THE POD WAS SENT OUT BEFORE THE CRASH OF
THE OBERON, TO RESCUE LEO!

> Now that that is established, may we move on? As for my real

name, U make one up for ME and I'll do the same for you. From
now on I'll be referring to you as JackASS.

>
> > "other 2 pods" that are ASSUMED to still be
> > around (are they actually visibly there on the crashed

Oberon? I don't recall seeing them; they MIGHT still be there...
they might NOT be. Your scenario [*** I apologize: I assumed
that your scenario involved Thade taking a pod from the
wreckage of the Oberon; not having read your actual scenario, I
didn't know about your "other astronaut" taking a pod prior to the
Crash of Oberon; my assumption was false, a best-guess as to
where you got your Thade-pod from. PMT] assumes that at least
one of them IS still there;

*** Hey, LardTZilch0 (you DID invite a made-up moniker), you're
the one who can't read right. I never said that there weren't any
"Beta" and "Gamma" pods as part of the Oberon (admittedly, the
naming of "Alpha" and "Delta" implies them). I said that I didn't
recall seeing that those two particular pods are STILL THERE in
the wreckage of the Oberon. Are they? Couldn't they have been
flown out of the Oberon PRIOR to its crash-landing on the
planet? and wouldn't it make more sense to fly the pods AWAY
from the wormhole storm rather than INTO it, following after Leo?
If the human scientists on the Oberon knew that their station was
going to crash land on a planet, wouldn't at least 2 of them jump
into these 2 pods (one person, of course, per pod... unless
they're really friendly...) and skedaddle, jump ship, fly away using
the pods as "lifeboats"? I've only sat through the movie twice
(once in the theater, once on DVD at home), so I'm not up on
EXACTLY what is visible in every single frame of film... but I'll ask
it again: IS either "Beta pod" or "Gamma pod" visible on even one
frame of film in the crashed-Oberon set? Just because the
Oberon HAD other pods way back when doesn't mean that the
crashed Oberon STILL has them [THAT was my point]; they may
very well have been used by other astronauts as "get-away"
vehicles prior to the Crash. After all, it wasn't all that difficult for
Leo to make off with the pod he used, was it? He didn't get
permission to fly it away, he just took the damn thing. So, too,
could any other astronaut on the Oberon take ANOTHER pod...
and ANOTHER and ANOTHER and ANOTHER (however many
pods there are).

If you were on a space station that was about to crashland onto
the surface of an alien planet, would YOU just sit back and wait
for the >crunch< or would you high-tail it to the pod bay (as I
would) and grab yourself one of those convenient pods and
escape to relative safety? How many pods were there? How
many astronauts were on the about-to-crash Oberon? How
many astronauts would be left on the Oberon after all the pods
had been taken by skedaddling fellow astronauts?

I'll ask it again: in the movie, on the Oberon-"Calima" crashed
derelict space station set, are any of the other pods (Beta,
Gamma, Epsilon, Zeta, etc.) actually VISIBLE? If so, then
fine--that means that the astronauts who were aboard the
Oberon prior to its crash landing were too stupid to jump in a
pod and high-tail it outta there... and that Thade can then make
use of the left-behind pod (in what I had thought--mistakenly--
was your scenario), provided it isn't busted in the crash.

As for your suggestion that some other astronaut flew one of the
other pods out and went to "rescue Leo", that would mean that
he would have had to know Leo's pod's trajectory through the
wormhole storm (etc.). It would also mean that SOMETIME
during Thade's lifetime, this unknown astronaut landed his pod
near the same location that the submerged pod landed (and not
on the other side of the planet). Did he home in on the Oberon
wreckage? Since I haven't read your scenario (why not tell me
which Message # it's in, so I can then do so?), I can only
assume that you have this all figured out.
But I'll ask a question: Why would anybody be sent out to rescue
Leo at all? Leo disobeyed an order, stealing his pod in order to
rescue Pericles. He then disappeared into Nothingness. Does it
make sense to send ANYBODY along the same trajectory, when
such a rescuer should be expected to ALSO disappear into
Nothingness? Would you volunteer for such a task? "Hey,
Lieutenant LardTZilch0... we want you to take one of the other
pods and fly out into that electromagnetic storm... you know, the
one in which Leo flew and vanished... get your suit on and go
find Leo!" I don't know about you, but I for one would tell 'em to
take a hike--I wouldn't risk my neck for anybody, if it meant flying
out into a violent miasma of wormholes and intense radiation
just to find somebody who has vanished into Nothingness.

But, hey, if your scenario works for you, then fine. Write it in
screenplay format, ship it to Zanuck, wait for his glowing praise,
and spend the paycheck they give you on hooch and
hookers--you have my best wishes for success.

As of this writing, there are over 17 thousand messages posted
on this site. Which one of those has your detailed scenario on it?
I don't recall seeing it, but I'd be more than happy to read it. But
I'd rather "jump" to it than surf painstakingly through all 17,000 of
them just to find that single needle in the haystack.

Oh, and as far as the Internet pseudonyms go, I would prefer to
refer to you by your first name; this site is rather informal, and I
thought we were all on a first-name basis here. If you have an
aversion to using your real first name, fine. The only reason I
included (? Mrs.? Ms.?) was because your very anonymity
prevents me from knowing beyond any doubt your actual gender.
For all I know, you could be male... or female... or transgendered,
even. If I had to guess, I'd guess that you are male [the "Lord-"
part of your pseudonym suggests masculine gender] ... but I'd
rather not assume that, just in case you aren't.
As far as I have seen, to date, I'm the only one here who uses my
full name (first, middle, last) to identify myself here. Some folks
use first-&-last, some use only their first name; some use Net
pseudonyms that SUGGEST the gender (i.e. "james11677" or
whatever it is--meaning that the user is actually named "James"
in real life?). You, however, call yourself "LordTZer0" for reasons
that satisfy you, no doubt... yet leave it difficult for guys like me to
refer to you in a familiar context. Why not cough up a first name
for us (or even just for ME) to use? If you don't like your first
name, then why not lie to us and tell us your name is "Butch" or
"Dmitri" (or whatever first name you might WISH you had)? I'll be
glad to call you whatever name you prefer to be called... and I'd
prefer it if you referred to me as "Patrick". Can we not be civil,
here?

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002

Maybe the 1968 film is all a dream of Leo's. He's on the Oberon and dreams
it, a kind of premonition. Thus the original can be explained as a figment
of Leo's imagination and POTA2001 is the real deal. By the way, I dreamed of
two blondes and a brunette. Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 6:19 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: I Dream of POTA...


> --- In pota@y..., Darren Stockford <darren@s...> wrote:
> >
> > >How's that, Darren?
> >
> > It was a noble attempt, if only for the fact that you spent time on
> it at the request of li'l ol' me. :o)
>
> *** I'm glad you sorta liked it. :o)
>
> >
> >I think that the simplest solutions are the most plausible,
> though. Perhaps Leo was knocked unconscious during the
> pod's landing (or even during his journey back through the
> wormhole), and the film's final scenes are a stress-induced
> dream / nightmare (remember Carrie?).
> >
> >It would've been nice if, right at the end, after the credits had
> stopped rolling (so only a few people got to see it), Leo woke up
> with a start, still in the pod (so that it was clear that only the end
> had been a dream), and all was well on Earth. If any sequel feels
> the need to "explain" the end of Burton's film, that would be one
> way to do it.
> >
> > >quite frankly, I did NOT like Burton's movie
> >
> > Ah, I did. It has its flaws, for sure, but I really like it.
> >
> > - Darren
>
> *** I'm glad you were able to like it. I sure as hell wish that I, too,
> could've like it... but it just feels like a wasted effort. Derivative
> and irrelevant. At least the 1968 film was different from Boulle's
> book for all the right reasons... and was supremely relevant for
> its time. Burton's flick just doesn't have the "pulse" of our time,
> the way Schaffner's film had the "pulse" of the late-60's.
>
> Speaking of "stress-induced dreams/nightmares"... how's this
> for an "explanation" for the events of the 1968 POTA?
> 1.) Taylor gives his "final report" and then goes into hibernation.
> 2.) The image of the sleeping Taylor fades to black, to the
> oblivion of artificially-induced hibernation sleep...
> 3.) ... and everything that happens AFTER the opening credits is
> all one big hibernation drug-induced HALLUCINATION. The ship
> doesn't splash down into a lake... Stewart isn't a dried-up
> cadaver... there are no bestial humans foraging on crops of
> corn... there are no horse-riding gorillas chasing them... no real
> apes actually speak English to each other... Dodge isn't really
> shot dead... Landon isn't really lobotomized... the Statue of
> Liberty isn't really buried up to its waist on the shore... the was no
> nuclear war which supposedly wiped out human civilization on
> Earth after his departure in 1972 (it was only his own
> subconscious fear of such an Event that caused his own Mind to
> IMAGINE that that had indeed happened!)...
>
> Think about it: might not Taylor speculate (at some point) that
> every bizarre thing he experiences after he "wakes up" from
> hibernation is best explained as a weird friggin' DREAM? Isn't it
> more plausible to assume that Taylor's own subconscious mind
> cooked up these supposed experiences, addressing his own
> state-of-mind in the process?
> Taylor, perhaps, has a subconscious fear of the potential for
> human inhumanity... so his own mind portrays Stewart as
> DEAD--incapable of bearing any more human children to either
> him or the other two astronauts.
> Taylor had felt nothing but contempt for Landon... so his own
> mind cooks up an "argument" between him and Landon, an
> argument that Taylor, of course, will "win". And Landon will end
> up being defeated in a worse way, when Taylor's mind imagines
> him lobotomized.
> It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for there to be intelligent
> apes anywhere... especially ones that can impossibly speak not
> only the English language, but also know terms like "ad hoc" and
> know what a "Hopkins Manual Dexterity Test" is.
>
> In other words... every "character" Taylor meets--from Nova (his
> "ideal" woman, who can't talk and who probably ruts like a dog in
> heat), to Zaius (who represents all the authority figures whom
> Taylor had despised... as well as, perhaps, Himself-as-an-
> authority-figure-to-others), to Lucius (who represents the
> dissatisfied Youth Movement of his own time... as well as
> Himself-as-a-rebellious-teenager)--are Freudian figments of
> Taylor's own imagination.
> When Taylor screams out, "It's a Madhouse! A MADHOUSE!!!", he
> could have easily seconded that with, "... or else it's a very very
> BAD DREAM that I'm having..." How does he know, beyond any
> doubt, that it ISN'T a nightmare brought on by his dose of that
> hibernation-inducing drug? Neither he nor Landon nor Dodge
> ever asks each other whether or not they dreamed during the 12
> months of hibernation, or describes any hiber-dreams.
>
> And you all thought that "The Matrix" was a great "mind-f*ck"...!
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:

> You should be able to find some pictures [of Queensboro

Plaza] on the internet or in a book.

> Etc. - - - Jeff
>

*** I've searched a bunch of times on the Net, and looked in
every NYC book I've ever encountered, and not seen a single
photo of Queensboro Plaza. Do you know of any internet address
(i.e. www.therealqueensboroplaza.com, or something like that)
or actual book title that I might find what I "should be able to
find"?

Patrick

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/2002 8:01:00 AM Central Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

But why--if Queensboro Plaza never did have tunnels--did Fox portray it as if it DID?

Perhaps they wanted to show that even above ground and elevated stations were buried by the bomb.

I'd agree with T's supposition. Plus it is somewhat said that the mutants city was built within the ruins of the old, so it's more than likely they built these tunnels after the holocaust.

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 6:24 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE

Mrs. Lady Patricia Roberta Tilton, or whatever the rest of your name is, once again you prove my previous statement.  You write a hellaofa lot better than you read.  My scenario does NOT assume that at least one pod is still there!  YOU assumed that it did!  I won't even do the ASSUME joke, as I'm sure we've all heard it before, but it sure does apply here.  Go back and read the posts if need be.  Or read on here.  My scenario has someone taking one of the remaining pods to rescue Leo.  If there's an Alpha pod, and there's a Delta pod, then it should be safe to ASSUME that there is at the very least a Beta pod, to say nothing of a Gamma pod.  There may even be Epsilon pod all the way up to an Omega pod for all we know.  But we do know there's an Alpha and a Delta, so there are at least two pods between them.  I'LL WRITE THIS IN CAPS SO YOU CAN READ PAST THE RAGE IN YOUR EYES FROM MY RETORT TO YOUR INSULTS.  THE POD WAS SENT OUT BEFORE THE CRASH OF THE OBERON, TO RESCUE LEO!  Now that that is established, may we move on?  As for my real name, U make one up for ME and I'll do the same for you.  From now on I'll be referring to you as JackASS.

"other 2 pods" that are ASSUMED to still be
around (are they actually visibly there on the crashed Oberon? I
don't recall seeing them; they MIGHT still be there... they might
NOT be. Your scenario assumes that at least one of them IS still
there;

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

I thought he nixed the idea because he decided it wasn't right of him to "profit" from doing so (selling dvds).

He could sell them at a loss if it'll make him feel better.<.html

.html

Couldn't they have been flown out of the Oberon PRIOR to its crash-landing on the
planet?

That's what I said, Jackass.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/2002 9:34:15 AM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

When Taylor screams out, "It's a Madhouse! A MADHOUSE!!!", he
could have easily seconded that with, "... or else it's a very very
BAD DREAM that I'm having..." How does he know, beyond any
doubt, that it ISN'T a nightmare brought on by his dose of that
hibernation-inducing drug? Neither he nor Landon nor Dodge
ever asks each other whether or not they dreamed during the 12
months of hibernation, or describes any hiber-dreams.

And you all thought that "The Matrix" was a great "mind-f*ck"...!

Patrick Michael Tilton

If you're really suggesting that the first movie is /was a "dream", then wouldn't that kind of make all of your theories moot points? And whose "dreams" would let's say "Conquest" be? The tv series?

<.html

Whoa, now hold on there, James! Have you ever stopped to consider that
POTA is the reality and all THIS is just a dream/nightmare? Maybe you're
sleeping in a cornfield after a hard day being chased by apes and dreaming
what it would be like if men were in charge. Any minute now you're going to
wake up and say,"Computers? Cars? Jim Carrey? Ridiculous! Oh s**t, here come
the apes again!" How DARE you assume that you own reality! Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 7:01 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Vacation on the Planet of the Apes


> OK It's just a movie not reality. I'm sure that they looked on a
> Subway map, liked the name and used it. Since it's not a big
> recognizable NYC landmark they took dramatic licence when designing
> the set. Many films and TV series shot in New York (or sometimes
> elsewhere to double for New York) do the same. There are countless
> examples of characters walking down a street, turning a corner and
> winding up blocks or miles away in an instant. Other than people
> that live in New York no one else would realize the discrepancy. The
> same is true of films shot in LA or any other big city. In the end
> what real differnce does it make to the storyline; it's just a movie.
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> wrote:
> > Given your description of Queensboro Plaza, one must wonder
> > why the guys who decided to include it (as a remnant of our era
> > still somewhat existing in 3955) did so at all. I know
> > that--according to Bill Creber (in "BEHIND THE POTA")--the folks
> > at 20th Century Fox (California) had their "New York people" take
> > a bunch of photos which were then cut apart with x-acto knives
> > and pasted back together (with extra airbrushing done to
> > embellish the "ruin" look)... pictures of various famous
> > landmarks, like the New York Stock Exchange, the New York
> > Public Library, Radio City Music Hall, etc. But why--if Queensboro
> > Plaza never did have tunnels--did Fox portray it as if it DID?
> You'd
> > think that somebody who had actually BEEN to New York City
> > would have clued them in on this prior to their building the
> > subway station set.
> > Just out of curiosity, if one were to take the subway from
> > Queensboro Plaza to Grand Central Station (or the nearest
> > station to it), where exactly does the actual tunnel begin? After
> all,
> > the subway line goes under the East River (and under Roosevelt
> > Island, which is in East River), so at some point the subway line
> > must descend underground. Whereabouts does it do this?
> > Anybody know?
> > As far as reconciling this curious situation, we should perhaps
> > assume that the Queensboro Plaza in "the POTA universe" at
> > some point was rebuilt (when?) so as to have actual tunnels
> > extending towards Manhattan and elsewhere. I'm gonna have to
> > make another trip to NYC, and insist on getting over to Queens to
> > check out the details.
> >
> > Might there be anybody else out there besides James who can
> > get to the Queensboro Plaza area and take some pictures, and
> > post them on this site? Inquiring minds want to know...
> >
> > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Mr. Ruiz informed us a while back that he won't be putting those out
because he has the utmost respect for copyright issues. Etc. - - -
Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Back in the Day


> Yes he did. I'm still looking forward to the uncut version of Battle
> he was putting on DVD.
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Yeah, didn't Alex promise us all we could buy copies of the DVDs
> he was
> > working on?
> >
> > What happened there?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: LordTZer0@A... [LordTZer0@A...]
> > Sent: Monday, 27 May 2002 16:43
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Back in the Day
> >
> >
> >
> > What are you guys talking about? That there are Five-Star DVDs
> > of APES on the way?
> >
> > Oh right, that was Alex. Nevermind then.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:

> I think T (his first name is "my", as in "my Lord") believes that

one of the pods went on a search mission before the oberon
crashed and will arrive to save poor Thadie Wadie. I guess we
could look for clues in Quick's new novel, since it's about the
Oberon's crash (but "insectile race"??). Steven Soderbergh
directed the new "Ocean's 11" and is currently remaking
"Solaris" for Fox; the first movie he remembers seeing was
POTA.Etc. - - Jeff

*** I thought that James Cameron was the guy remaking the
horrid "Solaris". I've not read Stanislaw Lem's book, but if it IS
worth another cinematic try, I hope that Soderbergh (if it is him)
does as good a job as he did on "Ocean's 11".

Feel free to refer to "LordTZer0" as "My Lord" (if you like), but I
don't call ANYBODY my "Lord". Even if Jesus H. Christ himself
were to Descend onto my front yard and knock on my door, I
wouldn't call him "Lord"--I'd be glad to chat with him and ask him
a million questions or so, but the burden would be on him to
explain how he deserves to be reckoned anybody's "Lord" (with a
capital "L"). I don't believe that I deserve the Death Penalty for not
obeying the totalitarian dictates of Jehovah, and I don't believe
that I then require the "atoning Blood" of Jesus to "pay the Price"
for my so-called "Sins". How many babies died when Jehovah
sent the Flood? If THAT doesn't make Jehovah Himself a
murderer--a violator of the Commandment against committing
Murder--then I'm a monkey's uncle. Jehovah allegedly
slaughtered the ENTIRE human race (all but 8 people!) in a
single act of mass genocide... so who is He to sit as a judge
over me? I've never killed a single person, let alone the ENTIRE
HUMAN RACE (all, that is, but 8 persons), so I think that
Jehovah's superiority complex is a tad unwarranted.

Maybe I should just call our "Thade-pod scenario concocter"
something like "TZer0" and leave out the "Lord" part. I dunno.

I, like you seem to, also have a doubt about this "insectile race"
stuff. But, since I don't really care all that much about the Burton
fiasco--let alone OTHER adventures in its "universe"--I'll have to
just "pass" on it all. Fans of the Burton flick, go ahead and enjoy
it and try to enjoy all its offshoots, if you can. I wish I could, but I
can't, so I won't. >Sigh.<

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/27/2002 8:01:00 AM Central Standard

Time,

> LordTZer0@A... writes:
>
>
> >
> > >> But why--if Queensboro Plaza never did have tunnels--did

Fox portray it

> >>
> >
> > Perhaps they wanted to show that even above ground and

elevated stations

> >
>
>
> I'd agree with T's supposition. Plus it is somewhat said that the

mutants city was built within the ruins of the old, so it's more than
likely they built these tunnels after the holocaust.

*** The cylindrical tunnels through which Brent and Nova
travelled from the subway tunnels to the NY Public Library, yes.
The mutants must have constructed those AFTER the Nuke War,
since they certainly could not have been there before the War.
Their purpose, as Brent mentions, is to draw in air from the
surface down into the subterranean City ("...there's an
intelligence at work here... whatever it is, they BREATHE AIR...").
But the SUBWAY tunnels through which Brent and Nova first
begin their journey (after they first hear the "hummmmm..." and
up to the place where they leave behind the subway tunnel and
get to the cavern where the rung-ladder goes up into the circular
opening) are depicted as if they are UNDERGROUND
TUNNELS, and not on-the-surface rail-lines. Since the real
Queensboro Plaza (according to James) does NOT have any
actual subway tunnels, then this is a mistake on the part of the
film-makers (unless we assume that the Queensboro Plaza
subway station was re-vamped sometime AFTER Brent left Earth
and BEFORE the Nuke War relegated it to a dismal ruin).

Patrick

Since when did that movie make sense, Pat? If Leo can go on a rescue
mission of his chimp (by his own choice), someone could've gone after Leo (a
friend, perhaps). Also, everybody who goes through the storm seems to wind
up more or less in the same spot (Oberon, Leo, Pericles). We can assume this
rescue party arrives around the same time Leo does (since they seem to
arrive by weight), maybe tinkered with their pod, then took off and met up
with Thade somehow after the fact. By the way, do the apes help Thade or do
they just leave him there? But it's interesting. The combination of Lord T
and POTA just spells magic to me! Etc. - - -
Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 7:33 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE


> --- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> > Mrs. Lady Patricia Roberta Tilton, or whatever the rest of your
> name is, once again you prove my previous statement. You write
> a hellaofa lot better than you read. My scenario [*** which I have
> NOT read, because I don't know where to read it: PMT] does NOT
> assume that at least one pod is still there! YOU assumed that it
> did! I won't even do the ASSUME joke, as I'm sure we've all
> heard it before, but it sure does apply here. Go back and read
> the posts if need be [***WHICH POSTS? Give me a number!
> PMT]. Or read on here. My scenario has someone taking one of
> the remaining pods to rescue Leo [Oh! Between Leo's
> pod-stealing and disappearance and the Crash of the Oberon...
> Now I get it. PMT]. If there's an Alpha pod, and there's a Delta
> pod, then it should be safe to ASSUME that there is at the very
> least a Beta pod, to say nothing of a Gamma pod. There may
> even be Epsilon pod all the way up to an Omega pod for all we
> know. But we do know there's an Alpha and a Delta, so there are
> at least two pods between them. I'LL WRITE THIS IN CAPS SO
> YOU CAN READ PAST THE RAGE IN YOUR EYES FROM MY
> RETORT TO YOUR INSULTS [*** 1.) Your "retort" has not
> enraged me, and 2.) My comments were not "insults" aimed at
> you. PMT]. THE POD WAS SENT OUT BEFORE THE CRASH OF
> THE OBERON, TO RESCUE LEO!
> > Now that that is established, may we move on? As for my real
> name, U make one up for ME and I'll do the same for you. From
> now on I'll be referring to you as JackASS.
> >
> > > "other 2 pods" that are ASSUMED to still be
> > > around (are they actually visibly there on the crashed
> Oberon? I don't recall seeing them; they MIGHT still be there...
> they might NOT be. Your scenario [*** I apologize: I assumed
> that your scenario involved Thade taking a pod from the
> wreckage of the Oberon; not having read your actual scenario, I
> didn't know about your "other astronaut" taking a pod prior to the
> Crash of Oberon; my assumption was false, a best-guess as to
> where you got your Thade-pod from. PMT] assumes that at least
> one of them IS still there;
>
> *** Hey, LardTZilch0 (you DID invite a made-up moniker), you're
> the one who can't read right. I never said that there weren't any
> "Beta" and "Gamma" pods as part of the Oberon (admittedly, the
> naming of "Alpha" and "Delta" implies them). I said that I didn't
> recall seeing that those two particular pods are STILL THERE in
> the wreckage of the Oberon. Are they? Couldn't they have been
> flown out of the Oberon PRIOR to its crash-landing on the
> planet? and wouldn't it make more sense to fly the pods AWAY
> from the wormhole storm rather than INTO it, following after Leo?
> If the human scientists on the Oberon knew that their station was
> going to crash land on a planet, wouldn't at least 2 of them jump
> into these 2 pods (one person, of course, per pod... unless
> they're really friendly...) and skedaddle, jump ship, fly away using
> the pods as "lifeboats"? I've only sat through the movie twice
> (once in the theater, once on DVD at home), so I'm not up on
> EXACTLY what is visible in every single frame of film... but I'll ask
> it again: IS either "Beta pod" or "Gamma pod" visible on even one
> frame of film in the crashed-Oberon set? Just because the
> Oberon HAD other pods way back when doesn't mean that the
> crashed Oberon STILL has them [THAT was my point]; they may
> very well have been used by other astronauts as "get-away"
> vehicles prior to the Crash. After all, it wasn't all that difficult for
> Leo to make off with the pod he used, was it? He didn't get
> permission to fly it away, he just took the damn thing. So, too,
> could any other astronaut on the Oberon take ANOTHER pod...
> and ANOTHER and ANOTHER and ANOTHER (however many
> pods there are).
>
> If you were on a space station that was about to crashland onto
> the surface of an alien planet, would YOU just sit back and wait
> for the >crunch< or would you high-tail it to the pod bay (as I
> would) and grab yourself one of those convenient pods and
> escape to relative safety? How many pods were there? How
> many astronauts were on the about-to-crash Oberon? How
> many astronauts would be left on the Oberon after all the pods
> had been taken by skedaddling fellow astronauts?
>
> I'll ask it again: in the movie, on the Oberon-"Calima" crashed
> derelict space station set, are any of the other pods (Beta,
> Gamma, Epsilon, Zeta, etc.) actually VISIBLE? If so, then
> fine--that means that the astronauts who were aboard the
> Oberon prior to its crash landing were too stupid to jump in a
> pod and high-tail it outta there... and that Thade can then make
> use of the left-behind pod (in what I had thought--mistakenly--
> was your scenario), provided it isn't busted in the crash.
>
> As for your suggestion that some other astronaut flew one of the
> other pods out and went to "rescue Leo", that would mean that
> he would have had to know Leo's pod's trajectory through the
> wormhole storm (etc.). It would also mean that SOMETIME
> during Thade's lifetime, this unknown astronaut landed his pod
> near the same location that the submerged pod landed (and not
> on the other side of the planet). Did he home in on the Oberon
> wreckage? Since I haven't read your scenario (why not tell me
> which Message # it's in, so I can then do so?), I can only
> assume that you have this all figured out.
> But I'll ask a question: Why would anybody be sent out to rescue
> Leo at all? Leo disobeyed an order, stealing his pod in order to
> rescue Pericles. He then disappeared into Nothingness. Does it
> make sense to send ANYBODY along the same trajectory, when
> such a rescuer should be expected to ALSO disappear into
> Nothingness? Would you volunteer for such a task? "Hey,
> Lieutenant LardTZilch0... we want you to take one of the other
> pods and fly out into that electromagnetic storm... you know, the
> one in which Leo flew and vanished... get your suit on and go
> find Leo!" I don't know about you, but I for one would tell 'em to
> take a hike--I wouldn't risk my neck for anybody, if it meant flying
> out into a violent miasma of wormholes and intense radiation
> just to find somebody who has vanished into Nothingness.
>
> But, hey, if your scenario works for you, then fine. Write it in
> screenplay format, ship it to Zanuck, wait for his glowing praise,
> and spend the paycheck they give you on hooch and
> hookers--you have my best wishes for success.
>
> As of this writing, there are over 17 thousand messages posted
> on this site. Which one of those has your detailed scenario on it?
> I don't recall seeing it, but I'd be more than happy to read it. But
> I'd rather "jump" to it than surf painstakingly through all 17,000 of
> them just to find that single needle in the haystack.
>
> Oh, and as far as the Internet pseudonyms go, I would prefer to
> refer to you by your first name; this site is rather informal, and I
> thought we were all on a first-name basis here. If you have an
> aversion to using your real first name, fine. The only reason I
> included (? Mrs.? Ms.?) was because your very anonymity
> prevents me from knowing beyond any doubt your actual gender.
> For all I know, you could be male... or female... or transgendered,
> even. If I had to guess, I'd guess that you are male [the "Lord-"
> part of your pseudonym suggests masculine gender] ... but I'd
> rather not assume that, just in case you aren't.
> As far as I have seen, to date, I'm the only one here who uses my
> full name (first, middle, last) to identify myself here. Some folks
> use first-&-last, some use only their first name; some use Net
> pseudonyms that SUGGEST the gender (i.e. "james11677" or
> whatever it is--meaning that the user is actually named "James"
> in real life?). You, however, call yourself "LordTZer0" for reasons
> that satisfy you, no doubt... yet leave it difficult for guys like me to
> refer to you in a familiar context. Why not cough up a first name
> for us (or even just for ME) to use? If you don't like your first
> name, then why not lie to us and tell us your name is "Butch" or
> "Dmitri" (or whatever first name you might WISH you had)? I'll be
> glad to call you whatever name you prefer to be called... and I'd
> prefer it if you referred to me as "Patrick". Can we not be civil,
> here?
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/27/2002 9:34:15 AM Central Standard

Time,

> Haristas@a... writes:
>
>
> >
> > >> When Taylor screams out, "It's a Madhouse! A

MADHOUSE!!!", he

> >> could have easily seconded that with, "... or else it's a very

very

> >> BAD DREAM that I'm having..." How does he know, beyond

any

> >> doubt, that it ISN'T a nightmare brought on by his dose of

that

> >> hibernation-inducing drug? Neither he nor Landon nor

Dodge

> >> ever asks each other whether or not they dreamed during

the 12

> >> months of hibernation, or describes any hiber-dreams.
> >>
> >> And you all thought that "The Matrix" was a great

"mind-f*ck"...!

> >>
> >>
> >
>
> If you're really suggesting that the first movie is /was a "dream",

then

> wouldn't that kind of make all of your theories moot points? And

whose

> "dreams" would let's say "Conquest" be? The tv series?

*** Don't mistake me here, please! I was offering up an
alternative explanation for a PLANET-only scenario. Hell, the
entire saga (PLANET, BENEATH, ... BATTLE, the TV show) could
also be part of Taylor's hibernation hallucination, IF this is what's
going on.
But, no, I'm not seriously suggesting any of this; it was more in
line with a comparison to the "Leo dream" scenario offered up
beforehand. I'm not abandoning my earlier-given mega-scenario
in favor of the "Taylor dream" notion. However, I might have
Taylor think to himself (at some point in his adventures among
the monkeys) that it all MIGHT be a hibernation dream... until
some shocking experience knocks it out of his mind (as when
Julius hoses him down, perhaps).

Patrick

Does it make sense to send ANYBODY along the same trajectory, when
such a rescuer should be expected to ALSO disappear into
Nothingness? Would you volunteer for such a task? "Hey,
Lieutenant LardTZilch0

Yes, I would, as long as I wasn't going to save you, Jackass. As for names,
you'll find mine in the Special Thanks To section of Brian Penreigh's book,
Legend Of The Planet Of The Apes . . . twice. You figure out which, genius.
I didn't see your names in there, but I'm sure it was just an oversight,
since no one knows more than you. As for being civil. I'm all for that.
Actually I have enjoyed some of your posts. Usually the less longwinded
ones. Call me T. That's what my parents call me. Do excuse my
Snapperheadedness. Being a punk rocker, I follow the Mick Jones motto.
"And if I get aggression,
I give it two times back!
Every day, it's just the same.
with HATE & WAR on my back!"

Psst! Lord T's real name is Doug. But don't tell him I said so. He'd KILL
me!Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 7:33 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE


> --- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> > Mrs. Lady Patricia Roberta Tilton, or whatever the rest of your
> name is, once again you prove my previous statement. You write
> a hellaofa lot better than you read. My scenario [*** which I have
> NOT read, because I don't know where to read it: PMT] does NOT
> assume that at least one pod is still there! YOU assumed that it
> did! I won't even do the ASSUME joke, as I'm sure we've all
> heard it before, but it sure does apply here. Go back and read
> the posts if need be [***WHICH POSTS? Give me a number!
> PMT]. Or read on here. My scenario has someone taking one of
> the remaining pods to rescue Leo [Oh! Between Leo's
> pod-stealing and disappearance and the Crash of the Oberon...
> Now I get it. PMT]. If there's an Alpha pod, and there's a Delta
> pod, then it should be safe to ASSUME that there is at the very
> least a Beta pod, to say nothing of a Gamma pod. There may
> even be Epsilon pod all the way up to an Omega pod for all we
> know. But we do know there's an Alpha and a Delta, so there are
> at least two pods between them. I'LL WRITE THIS IN CAPS SO
> YOU CAN READ PAST THE RAGE IN YOUR EYES FROM MY
> RETORT TO YOUR INSULTS [*** 1.) Your "retort" has not
> enraged me, and 2.) My comments were not "insults" aimed at
> you. PMT]. THE POD WAS SENT OUT BEFORE THE CRASH OF
> THE OBERON, TO RESCUE LEO!
> > Now that that is established, may we move on? As for my real
> name, U make one up for ME and I'll do the same for you. From
> now on I'll be referring to you as JackASS.
> >
> > > "other 2 pods" that are ASSUMED to still be
> > > around (are they actually visibly there on the crashed
> Oberon? I don't recall seeing them; they MIGHT still be there...
> they might NOT be. Your scenario [*** I apologize: I assumed
> that your scenario involved Thade taking a pod from the
> wreckage of the Oberon; not having read your actual scenario, I
> didn't know about your "other astronaut" taking a pod prior to the
> Crash of Oberon; my assumption was false, a best-guess as to
> where you got your Thade-pod from. PMT] assumes that at least
> one of them IS still there;
>
> *** Hey, LardTZilch0 (you DID invite a made-up moniker), you're
> the one who can't read right. I never said that there weren't any
> "Beta" and "Gamma" pods as part of the Oberon (admittedly, the
> naming of "Alpha" and "Delta" implies them). I said that I didn't
> recall seeing that those two particular pods are STILL THERE in
> the wreckage of the Oberon. Are they? Couldn't they have been
> flown out of the Oberon PRIOR to its crash-landing on the
> planet? and wouldn't it make more sense to fly the pods AWAY
> from the wormhole storm rather than INTO it, following after Leo?
> If the human scientists on the Oberon knew that their station was
> going to crash land on a planet, wouldn't at least 2 of them jump
> into these 2 pods (one person, of course, per pod... unless
> they're really friendly...) and skedaddle, jump ship, fly away using
> the pods as "lifeboats"? I've only sat through the movie twice
> (once in the theater, once on DVD at home), so I'm not up on
> EXACTLY what is visible in every single frame of film... but I'll ask
> it again: IS either "Beta pod" or "Gamma pod" visible on even one
> frame of film in the crashed-Oberon set? Just because the
> Oberon HAD other pods way back when doesn't mean that the
> crashed Oberon STILL has them [THAT was my point]; they may
> very well have been used by other astronauts as "get-away"
> vehicles prior to the Crash. After all, it wasn't all that difficult for
> Leo to make off with the pod he used, was it? He didn't get
> permission to fly it away, he just took the damn thing. So, too,
> could any other astronaut on the Oberon take ANOTHER pod...
> and ANOTHER and ANOTHER and ANOTHER (however many
> pods there are).
>
> If you were on a space station that was about to crashland onto
> the surface of an alien planet, would YOU just sit back and wait
> for the >crunch< or would you high-tail it to the pod bay (as I
> would) and grab yourself one of those convenient pods and
> escape to relative safety? How many pods were there? How
> many astronauts were on the about-to-crash Oberon? How
> many astronauts would be left on the Oberon after all the pods
> had been taken by skedaddling fellow astronauts?
>
> I'll ask it again: in the movie, on the Oberon-"Calima" crashed
> derelict space station set, are any of the other pods (Beta,
> Gamma, Epsilon, Zeta, etc.) actually VISIBLE? If so, then
> fine--that means that the astronauts who were aboard the
> Oberon prior to its crash landing were too stupid to jump in a
> pod and high-tail it outta there... and that Thade can then make
> use of the left-behind pod (in what I had thought--mistakenly--
> was your scenario), provided it isn't busted in the crash.
>
> As for your suggestion that some other astronaut flew one of the
> other pods out and went to "rescue Leo", that would mean that
> he would have had to know Leo's pod's trajectory through the
> wormhole storm (etc.). It would also mean that SOMETIME
> during Thade's lifetime, this unknown astronaut landed his pod
> near the same location that the submerged pod landed (and not
> on the other side of the planet). Did he home in on the Oberon
> wreckage? Since I haven't read your scenario (why not tell me
> which Message # it's in, so I can then do so?), I can only
> assume that you have this all figured out.
> But I'll ask a question: Why would anybody be sent out to rescue
> Leo at all? Leo disobeyed an order, stealing his pod in order to
> rescue Pericles. He then disappeared into Nothingness. Does it
> make sense to send ANYBODY along the same trajectory, when
> such a rescuer should be expected to ALSO disappear into
> Nothingness? Would you volunteer for such a task? "Hey,
> Lieutenant LardTZilch0... we want you to take one of the other
> pods and fly out into that electromagnetic storm... you know, the
> one in which Leo flew and vanished... get your suit on and go
> find Leo!" I don't know about you, but I for one would tell 'em to
> take a hike--I wouldn't risk my neck for anybody, if it meant flying
> out into a violent miasma of wormholes and intense radiation
> just to find somebody who has vanished into Nothingness.
>
> But, hey, if your scenario works for you, then fine. Write it in
> screenplay format, ship it to Zanuck, wait for his glowing praise,
> and spend the paycheck they give you on hooch and
> hookers--you have my best wishes for success.
>
> As of this writing, there are over 17 thousand messages posted
> on this site. Which one of those has your detailed scenario on it?
> I don't recall seeing it, but I'd be more than happy to read it. But
> I'd rather "jump" to it than surf painstakingly through all 17,000 of
> them just to find that single needle in the haystack.
>
> Oh, and as far as the Internet pseudonyms go, I would prefer to
> refer to you by your first name; this site is rather informal, and I
> thought we were all on a first-name basis here. If you have an
> aversion to using your real first name, fine. The only reason I
> included (? Mrs.? Ms.?) was because your very anonymity
> prevents me from knowing beyond any doubt your actual gender.
> For all I know, you could be male... or female... or transgendered,
> even. If I had to guess, I'd guess that you are male [the "Lord-"
> part of your pseudonym suggests masculine gender] ... but I'd
> rather not assume that, just in case you aren't.
> As far as I have seen, to date, I'm the only one here who uses my
> full name (first, middle, last) to identify myself here. Some folks
> use first-&-last, some use only their first name; some use Net
> pseudonyms that SUGGEST the gender (i.e. "james11677" or
> whatever it is--meaning that the user is actually named "James"
> in real life?). You, however, call yourself "LordTZer0" for reasons
> that satisfy you, no doubt... yet leave it difficult for guys like me to
> refer to you in a familiar context. Why not cough up a first name
> for us (or even just for ME) to use? If you don't like your first
> name, then why not lie to us and tell us your name is "Butch" or
> "Dmitri" (or whatever first name you might WISH you had)? I'll be
> glad to call you whatever name you prefer to be called... and I'd
> prefer it if you referred to me as "Patrick". Can we not be civil,
> here?
>
> Patrick Michael Tilton
> EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Cameron is producing, Soderbergh is directing "Solaris" (that'd be a nice
name for a car). I guess the "insectile creatures" is Quick's "reinvention"
of "Beneath", the new mutants? Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 7:52 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE


> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > I think T (his first name is "my", as in "my Lord") believes that
> one of the pods went on a search mission before the oberon
> crashed and will arrive to save poor Thadie Wadie. I guess we
> could look for clues in Quick's new novel, since it's about the
> Oberon's crash (but "insectile race"??). Steven Soderbergh
> directed the new "Ocean's 11" and is currently remaking
> "Solaris" for Fox; the first movie he remembers seeing was
> POTA.Etc. - - Jeff
>
> *** I thought that James Cameron was the guy remaking the
> horrid "Solaris". I've not read Stanislaw Lem's book, but if it IS
> worth another cinematic try, I hope that Soderbergh (if it is him)
> does as good a job as he did on "Ocean's 11".
>
> Feel free to refer to "LordTZer0" as "My Lord" (if you like), but I
> don't call ANYBODY my "Lord". Even if Jesus H. Christ himself
> were to Descend onto my front yard and knock on my door, I
> wouldn't call him "Lord"--I'd be glad to chat with him and ask him
> a million questions or so, but the burden would be on him to
> explain how he deserves to be reckoned anybody's "Lord" (with a
> capital "L"). I don't believe that I deserve the Death Penalty for not
> obeying the totalitarian dictates of Jehovah, and I don't believe
> that I then require the "atoning Blood" of Jesus to "pay the Price"
> for my so-called "Sins". How many babies died when Jehovah
> sent the Flood? If THAT doesn't make Jehovah Himself a
> murderer--a violator of the Commandment against committing
> Murder--then I'm a monkey's uncle. Jehovah allegedly
> slaughtered the ENTIRE human race (all but 8 people!) in a
> single act of mass genocide... so who is He to sit as a judge
> over me? I've never killed a single person, let alone the ENTIRE
> HUMAN RACE (all, that is, but 8 persons), so I think that
> Jehovah's superiority complex is a tad unwarranted.
>
> Maybe I should just call our "Thade-pod scenario concocter"
> something like "TZer0" and leave out the "Lord" part. I dunno.
>
> I, like you seem to, also have a doubt about this "insectile race"
> stuff. But, since I don't really care all that much about the Burton
> fiasco--let alone OTHER adventures in its "universe"--I'll have to
> just "pass" on it all. Fans of the Burton flick, go ahead and enjoy
> it and try to enjoy all its offshoots, if you can. I wish I could, but I
> can't, so I won't. >Sigh.<
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:

> Does it make sense to send ANYBODY along the same

trajectory, when

> such a rescuer should be expected to ALSO disappear into
> Nothingness? Would you volunteer for such a task? "Hey,
> Lieutenant LardTZilch0
>
> Yes, I would, as long as I wasn't going to save you, Jackass.

As for names,

> you'll find mine in the Special Thanks To section of Brian

Penreigh's book,

> Legend Of The Planet Of The Apes . . . twice. You figure out

which, genius.

> I didn't see your names in there, but I'm sure it was just an

oversight,

> since no one knows more than you. As for being civil. I'm all for

that.

> Actually I have enjoyed some of your posts. Usually the less

longwinded

> ones. Call me T. That's what my parents call me. Do excuse

my

> Snapperheadedness. Being a punk rocker, I follow the Mick

Jones motto.

> "And if I get aggression,
> I give it two times back!
> Every day, it's just the same.
> with HATE & WAR on my back!"

*** Okay, I'll call you "T". Would it be too much for you to call me
"Patrick", rather than "Jackass"? I have a few punk rocker friends,
and it's never a problem for them to call me by my preferred
name, so could you too, please, follow suit?

I'm still waiting on the Message # where your scenario is all laid
out. I, too, enjoy some of YOUR posts, and I'd LIKE to read the
post in question, but you'll have to provide a Message # to
narrow it down some.

As for the "aggression" quoted above, I don't recall ever giving
you any, let alone deserving twice an amount in return, but just
remember the immortal lyrics: "Despite all my rage, I'm still just
an ape in a cage..."

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:

> Psst! Lord T's real name is Doug. But don't tell him I said so.

He'd KILL

> me! Etc. - - - Jeff

*** Remember that "Far Side" cartoon with the "Beware of Doug"
sign posted in somebody's yard... with a spooky-looking guy
(presumably named "Doug") hiding behind a tree nearby?

I don't know if T's real name actually is Doug (as you say), but
regardless, he said to call him "T", so that's a-what I'm a-gonna
do.

Oh, and T (if you're reading this), please don't kill Jeff. He seems
like a nice guy. So, no monkeying around now.

Patrick

That's Mr. T to you.I pity the fool that calls him Doug.
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 8:25 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE


> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > Psst! Lord T's real name is Doug. But don't tell him I said so.
> He'd KILL
> > me! Etc. - - - Jeff
>
> *** Remember that "Far Side" cartoon with the "Beware of Doug"
> sign posted in somebody's yard... with a spooky-looking guy
> (presumably named "Doug") hiding behind a tree nearby?
>
> I don't know if T's real name actually is Doug (as you say), but
> regardless, he said to call him "T", so that's a-what I'm a-gonna
> do.
>
> Oh, and T (if you're reading this), please don't kill Jeff. He seems
> like a nice guy. So, no monkeying around now.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I searched www.Google.com (click on the images tab) "Queensboro
Plaza" and found 78 images. I would post some, but I am not from the
area and don't know which ones are helpful. You can try this ink:
http://images.google.com/images?
q=Queensboro+Plaza&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search . Hope
it works for you. Enjoy.

--Helen

Maybe someone else has suggested this. I haven't waded through all
the posts yet.



--- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
wrote:

> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > You should be able to find some pictures [of Queensboro
> Plaza] on the internet or in a book.
> > Etc. - - - Jeff
> >
>
> *** I've searched a bunch of times on the Net, and looked in
> every NYC book I've ever encountered, and not seen a single
> photo of Queensboro Plaza. Do you know of any internet address
> (i.e. www.therealqueensboroplaza.com, or something like that)
> or actual book title that I might find what I "should be able to
> find"?
>
> Patrick

Just saw "Insomnia" yesterday, and it's terrific. The same guy
who directed "Memento" has delivered another great film. This is
the first film I've seen that specifically takes place in a setting
where the Sun never sets during the plot, due to it being at/near
the Arctic Circle. John Carpenter's version of "THE THING"
(which I liked, generally) goofed on this, by having alternating
"days and nights" during the course of the action: at a facility
located in Antarctica (hence, within the Antarctic Circle), there
would be about 6 months of Day and 6 months of Night.

I've always liked the idea that for 5 to 6 months of the year each
polar zone has an unending Day (or Night, depending on which
hemisphere you're in during those months). I once had an idea
for a vampire story, where some town (perhaps in Scandinavia)
north of the Arctic Circle is invaded by a gang of vampires who
never need to get their undead asses back to a coffin during the
"daytime", since the Sun never rises during those 5 or 6 months.
I ditched the idea after I read Bram Stoker's novel, though, since
that whole "Sunlight-kills-vampires" notion is not a true element
of the Dracula story. In Stoker's novel, Dracula CAN walk around
in the daytime, but he merely loses his supernatural powers
when exposed to sunlight--i.e. he can't turn into a Mist, or a Wolf,
or a Bat when the sunlight has robbed him of the ability. Although
he CAN'T be killed just by sunlight, he can--of course--be killed
by getting his head chopped off during his sunlight-induced
"weakened state" (as happens in the novel). Until I read the
actual book, I never knew that it was the American--the
Texan--who killed Dracula. None of the movies I had seen ever
faithfully depicted the novel (come to think of it, none of the
versions I've seen since have been strictly faithful, either).

"Insomnia"... go see it. It's great.

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., "sand_hill_school" <sand_hill_school@y...>
wrote:

> I searched www.Google.com (click on the images tab)

"Queensboro

> Plaza" and found 78 images. I would post some, but I am not

from the

> area and don't know which ones are helpful. You can try this

ink:

> http://images.google.com/images?
>

q=Queensboro+Plaza&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&hl=en&btnG=Googl
e+Search . Hope

> it works for you. Enjoy.
>
> --Helen
>
> Maybe someone else has suggested this. I haven't waded

through all

> the posts yet.

*** Helen, thanks a googleplex! I haven't surfed there yet, but I
wanted to thank you first. I usually surf through LYCOS, but never
found anything--thanks for the tip about GOOGLE. I'll start giving
those guys my "business".

Patrick

Names names names . . .

Okay, I think I did this once before, but for the benefit of our newer
members, one more time. When on the punk rock scene having a 'Nom De Guerre'
is common practice esp. for band members. T Zero was my name long before
joining The Caffiends. T being short for my name and Zero from the proposed
B&W road film by Jim Morrison, among other things. It's also the point at
which a countdown becomes a count-up, as it were. In The Caffiends we all
had Caff names. Count Cafula The Prince of Dark Roast, Captain Jolt The
Lightning Bolt, Abigal Folger The Undead . . . I was Lord T Bagg The
Destroyer. The Lord T Bagg part because when it comes to punk rock, I prefer
the British sound to the Californian sound. I know lots of folks in
Californian bands. I have nothing against them, I like them a lot. It's
just that I grew up listening to British and NY bands, as did they. And The
Destroyer because . . . well, that's another story and this has gotten too
long already. Anyway, AOL has a lot of people on it, and I couldn't get one
name or the other, so I just combined them. Any questions?

.html  

I, like you seem to, also have a doubt about this "insectile race"
stuff.

I may have to sue, but that's another story.

<.html

No way!!! POTA2001 is a bad dream Caeser had after having Mexican
food for dinner.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Maybe the 1968 film is all a dream of Leo's. He's on the Oberon
and dreams
> it, a kind of premonition. Thus the original can be explained as a
figment
> of Leo's imagination and POTA2001 is the real deal. By the way, I
dreamed of
> two blondes and a brunette. Etc. - - -
Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 6:19 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: I Dream of POTA...
>
>
> > --- In pota@y..., Darren Stockford <darren@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >How's that, Darren?
> > >
> > > It was a noble attempt, if only for the fact that you spent
time on
> > it at the request of li'l ol' me. :o)
> >
> > *** I'm glad you sorta liked it. :o)
> >
> > >
> > >I think that the simplest solutions are the most plausible,
> > though. Perhaps Leo was knocked unconscious during the
> > pod's landing (or even during his journey back through the
> > wormhole), and the film's final scenes are a stress-induced
> > dream / nightmare (remember Carrie?).
> > >
> > >It would've been nice if, right at the end, after the credits
had
> > stopped rolling (so only a few people got to see it), Leo woke up
> > with a start, still in the pod (so that it was clear that only
the end
> > had been a dream), and all was well on Earth. If any sequel feels
> > the need to "explain" the end of Burton's film, that would be one
> > way to do it.
> > >
> > > >quite frankly, I did NOT like Burton's movie
> > >
> > > Ah, I did. It has its flaws, for sure, but I really like it.
> > >
> > > - Darren
> >
> > *** I'm glad you were able to like it. I sure as hell wish that
I, too,
> > could've like it... but it just feels like a wasted effort.
Derivative
> > and irrelevant. At least the 1968 film was different from
Boulle's
> > book for all the right reasons... and was supremely relevant for
> > its time. Burton's flick just doesn't have the "pulse" of our
time,
> > the way Schaffner's film had the "pulse" of the late-60's.
> >
> > Speaking of "stress-induced dreams/nightmares"... how's this
> > for an "explanation" for the events of the 1968 POTA?
> > 1.) Taylor gives his "final report" and then goes into
hibernation.
> > 2.) The image of the sleeping Taylor fades to black, to the
> > oblivion of artificially-induced hibernation sleep...
> > 3.) ... and everything that happens AFTER the opening credits is
> > all one big hibernation drug-induced HALLUCINATION. The ship
> > doesn't splash down into a lake... Stewart isn't a dried-up
> > cadaver... there are no bestial humans foraging on crops of
> > corn... there are no horse-riding gorillas chasing them... no
real
> > apes actually speak English to each other... Dodge isn't really
> > shot dead... Landon isn't really lobotomized... the Statue of
> > Liberty isn't really buried up to its waist on the shore... the
was no
> > nuclear war which supposedly wiped out human civilization on
> > Earth after his departure in 1972 (it was only his own
> > subconscious fear of such an Event that caused his own Mind to
> > IMAGINE that that had indeed happened!)...
> >
> > Think about it: might not Taylor speculate (at some point) that
> > every bizarre thing he experiences after he "wakes up" from
> > hibernation is best explained as a weird friggin' DREAM? Isn't it
> > more plausible to assume that Taylor's own subconscious mind
> > cooked up these supposed experiences, addressing his own
> > state-of-mind in the process?
> > Taylor, perhaps, has a subconscious fear of the potential for
> > human inhumanity... so his own mind portrays Stewart as
> > DEAD--incapable of bearing any more human children to either
> > him or the other two astronauts.
> > Taylor had felt nothing but contempt for Landon... so his own
> > mind cooks up an "argument" between him and Landon, an
> > argument that Taylor, of course, will "win". And Landon will end
> > up being defeated in a worse way, when Taylor's mind imagines
> > him lobotomized.
> > It doesn't make any sense whatsoever for there to be intelligent
> > apes anywhere... especially ones that can impossibly speak not
> > only the English language, but also know terms like "ad hoc" and
> > know what a "Hopkins Manual Dexterity Test" is.
> >
> > In other words... every "character" Taylor meets--from Nova (his
> > "ideal" woman, who can't talk and who probably ruts like a dog in
> > heat), to Zaius (who represents all the authority figures whom
> > Taylor had despised... as well as, perhaps, Himself-as-an-
> > authority-figure-to-others), to Lucius (who represents the
> > dissatisfied Youth Movement of his own time... as well as
> > Himself-as-a-rebellious-teenager)--are Freudian figments of
> > Taylor's own imagination.
> > When Taylor screams out, "It's a Madhouse! A MADHOUSE!!!", he
> > could have easily seconded that with, "... or else it's a very
very
> > BAD DREAM that I'm having..." How does he know, beyond any
> > doubt, that it ISN'T a nightmare brought on by his dose of that
> > hibernation-inducing drug? Neither he nor Landon nor Dodge
> > ever asks each other whether or not they dreamed during the 12
> > months of hibernation, or describes any hiber-dreams.
> >
> > And you all thought that "The Matrix" was a great "mind-f*ck"...!
> >
> > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
> >

.html

The combination of Lord T and POTA just spells magic to me! Etc.

Thanks Jeff.  I'd like to amend one thing though.  I want to change the ship arrival by weight, to ship arrival by MASS.  Sounds more scientical like, don't it?

<.html

That's because it's really a very minor station. It's only claim to
fame is being used in Beneath.

--- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
wrote:

> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > You should be able to find some pictures [of Queensboro
> Plaza] on the internet or in a book.
> > Etc. - - - Jeff
> >
>
> *** I've searched a bunch of times on the Net, and looked in
> every NYC book I've ever encountered, and not seen a single
> photo of Queensboro Plaza. Do you know of any internet address
> (i.e. www.therealqueensboroplaza.com, or something like that)
> or actual book title that I might find what I "should be able to
> find"?
>
> Patrick

.html

Psst! Lord T's real name is Doug. But don't tell him I said so. He'd KILL me! Etc.

Doug.  LOL!!!!!!  You're killin' me!

<.html

Sorry but that just makes no sense. Remember it's just a movie.
Since it's not a famous landmark they just lifted the name. There is
no way to reconcile the real place with the one in the movie. There
is no tile wall with the station's name. There are no stairs leading
down to the platform. Someone (perhaps Paul Dehn) just pulled the
name off a NYC Subway map, liked the name and used it.

--- In pota@y..., mlccougar@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/27/2002 8:01:00 AM Central Standard Time,
> LordTZer0@A... writes:
>
>
> >
> > >> But why--if Queensboro Plaza never did have tunnels--did Fox
portray it
> >>
> >
> > Perhaps they wanted to show that even above ground and elevated
stations
> >
>
>
> I'd agree with T's supposition. Plus it is somewhat said that the
mutants
> city was built within the ruins of the old, so it's more than
likely they
> built these tunnels after the holocaust.

Cameron is producing, Soderbergh is directing "Solaris" (that'd be a nice
name for a car). I guess the "insectile creatures" is Quick's "reinvention"
of "Beneath", the new mutants?

If Fox has a lock on Apes then I've had a lock on that one for years.

I don't own reality but at least I have a grip on it.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Whoa, now hold on there, James! Have you ever stopped to
consider that
> POTA is the reality and all THIS is just a dream/nightmare? Maybe
you're
> sleeping in a cornfield after a hard day being chased by apes and
dreaming
> what it would be like if men were in charge. Any minute now you're
going to
> wake up and say,"Computers? Cars? Jim Carrey? Ridiculous! Oh s**t,
here come
> the apes again!" How DARE you assume that you own reality! Etc. -
- - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 7:01 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Vacation on the Planet of the
Apes
>
>
> > OK It's just a movie not reality. I'm sure that they looked on a
> > Subway map, liked the name and used it. Since it's not a big
> > recognizable NYC landmark they took dramatic licence when
designing
> > the set. Many films and TV series shot in New York (or sometimes
> > elsewhere to double for New York) do the same. There are
countless
> > examples of characters walking down a street, turning a corner
and
> > winding up blocks or miles away in an instant. Other than people
> > that live in New York no one else would realize the discrepancy.
The
> > same is true of films shot in LA or any other big city. In the
end
> > what real differnce does it make to the storyline; it's just a
movie.
> >
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton"
<patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Given your description of Queensboro Plaza, one must wonder
> > > why the guys who decided to include it (as a remnant of our era
> > > still somewhat existing in 3955) did so at all. I know
> > > that--according to Bill Creber (in "BEHIND THE POTA")--the
folks
> > > at 20th Century Fox (California) had their "New York people"
take
> > > a bunch of photos which were then cut apart with x-acto knives
> > > and pasted back together (with extra airbrushing done to
> > > embellish the "ruin" look)... pictures of various famous
> > > landmarks, like the New York Stock Exchange, the New York
> > > Public Library, Radio City Music Hall, etc. But why--if
Queensboro
> > > Plaza never did have tunnels--did Fox portray it as if it DID?
> > You'd
> > > think that somebody who had actually BEEN to New York City
> > > would have clued them in on this prior to their building the
> > > subway station set.
> > > Just out of curiosity, if one were to take the subway from
> > > Queensboro Plaza to Grand Central Station (or the nearest
> > > station to it), where exactly does the actual tunnel begin?
After
> > all,
> > > the subway line goes under the East River (and under Roosevelt
> > > Island, which is in East River), so at some point the subway
line
> > > must descend underground. Whereabouts does it do this?
> > > Anybody know?
> > > As far as reconciling this curious situation, we should perhaps
> > > assume that the Queensboro Plaza in "the POTA universe" at
> > > some point was rebuilt (when?) so as to have actual tunnels
> > > extending towards Manhattan and elsewhere. I'm gonna have to
> > > make another trip to NYC, and insist on getting over to Queens
to
> > > check out the details.
> > >
> > > Might there be anybody else out there besides James who can
> > > get to the Queensboro Plaza area and take some pictures, and
> > > post them on this site? Inquiring minds want to know...
> > >
> > > Patrick Michael Tilton
> > > EARTH-TIME 5-27-2002
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

.html

I'm still waiting on the Message #

Wait no longer Patrick.  It was message # 17377

<.html

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:

>
> > I'm still waiting on the Message #
>
> Wait no longer Patrick. It was message # 17377

*** Thanks, T.
After reading through it, I've got to say that your scenario is about
as plausible as Burton's flick's plot... which is about all it needs
to be, I guess. Granted, Leo MIGHT be "worth another pod" (as
you suggest), but is he worth another human astronaut?
Somebody would still have to fly that oversized spermatozoan
through a wicked bit of space that makes the Mutara Nebula
from "Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan" look like a cake-walk. I find
it hard to believe that ANY astronaut would risk his yarbles flying
after Leo into Nothingness. But, hell, maybe Leo left a lover
behind who would do ANYTHING for him (especially if he was as
hung as his Dirk Diggler alter ego), including flying after his
stupid ass into a miasma of wormholes.

As to how Thade picks up the know-how on piloting the pod not
only into orbit but beyond it, into the wormholes, and all the way
to Earth... I dunno. Maybe the astronaut who lands it could've
pre-programmed it to follow after Leo's trajectory (provided Leo
left enough bread crumbs behind for ANY pod to track), and so
Thade just sits back and lets the computer do all the hard work.

T, you should go ahead and write it--don't wait for Zanuck to
approach you with the offer: just do it. He probably doesn't have
time to surf any of the Net, let alone this POTA site, so he doesn't
know that you're ready, willing, and able to pen/type the Sequel.
But whatever you do, make sure to get William Macy cast in it
somewhere--after all, he's the "M. Emmet Walsh" of this
generation. Walsh has been in almost EVERYTHING for over 30
years... and Macy's got the same type of track record of film
appearances. Somebody's got ta give Thade his oranges when
he shows up in "modern-day America"!

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:

>
> Names names names . . .
>
> Okay, I think I did this once before, but for the benefit of our

newer

> members, one more time. When on the punk rock scene

having a 'Nom De Guerre'

> is common practice esp. for band members. T Zero was my

name long before

> joining The Caffiends. T being short for my name and Zero

from the proposed

> B&W road film by Jim Morrison, among other things. It's also

the point at

> which a countdown becomes a count-up, as it were. In The

Caffiends we all

> had Caff names. Count Cafula The Prince of Dark Roast,

Captain Jolt The

> Lightning Bolt, Abigal Folger The Undead . . . I was Lord T

Bagg The

> Destroyer. The Lord T Bagg part because when it comes to

punk rock, I prefer

> the British sound to the Californian sound. I know lots of folks

in

> Californian bands. I have nothing against them, I like them a

lot. It's

> just that I grew up listening to British and NY bands, as did

they. And The

> Destroyer because . . . well, that's another story and this has

gotten too

> long already. Anyway, AOL has a lot of people on it, and I

couldn't get one

> name or the other, so I just combined them. Any questions?

*** Were you the guy that Spock neck-pinched on the bus in "Star
Trek IV: The Voyage Home"?
In "Jay and Silent Bob Strikes Back", Jay goes into a hilarious
rap-like monologue outside a convenience store and mentions
"tea-bagging". Is THAT the sort of thing that "T Bagg" was meant
to refer to? If so, then I'd hate to know that "The Destroyer" might
connote!
Inquiring minds want to know...

Patrick

Christ... what's with all the hostility here lately? Chill out, guys.

--- In pota@y..., "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
wrote:

> --- In pota@y..., "sand_hill_school" <sand_hill_school@y...>
> wrote:
> > I searched www.Google.com (click on the images tab)
> "Queensboro
> > Plaza" and found 78 images. I would post some, but I am

not

> from the
> > area and don't know which ones are helpful. You can try this
> ink:
> > http://images.google.com/images?
> >
>

q=Queensboro+Plaza&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&hl=en&btnG=Googl

> e+Search . Hope
> > it works for you. Enjoy.
> >
> > --Helen
> >
> > Maybe someone else has suggested this. I haven't waded
> through all
> > the posts yet.
>
> *** Helen, thanks a googleplex! I haven't surfed there yet, but I
> wanted to thank you first. I usually surf through LYCOS, but

never

> found anything--thanks for the tip about GOOGLE. I'll start

giving

> those guys my "business".
>
> Patrick

*** Just got through surfing that site. Printed off a bunch of pics.
All of it very informative. Curiously, there was absolutely no
mention of the (mis-)use of Queensboro Plaza in "BENEATH
THE PLANET OF THE APES" on any of the links there. Hmmm... I
wonder why not?
Thanks again for the tip. Like that other Helen, your face could
launch a thousand ships, too, I'd bet.

Patrick

Since you brought up 'Dracula", there was a newspaper article in the
5/9/02 O.C. Register . This guy John McLaughlin, who ran the store Book Sail
in Orange, CA bought Bram Stoker's actual "Dracula" manuscript in 1984 (it
had been in a barn in the East Coast for 80 years, presumed lost). He
decided to sell it and retire, so Christie's put it up for auction .
Understandably, there was a lot of interest; it was reported on CNN,etc.
McLaughlin thought he was going to get $2-3 million for it; but at the April
17 (2002) auction, reportedly no bids were placed. OK, so he thought he'd
get it back, right? Two weeks later he learned Christie's had sold it for
$941,000, giving him his minimum price of $850,000. They can sell items
without letting the seller know? Apparently there was a clause that they are
allowed to sell items after an auction. Anyway, McLaughlin smells a rat.
It's unlikely there would be no bids for such an item. So, whoever has
Pierre Boulle's "Apes" manuscript, watch it! Etc. - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 8:39 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] OT: "Insomnia" is a great flick


> Just saw "Insomnia" yesterday, and it's terrific. The same guy
> who directed "Memento" has delivered another great film. This is
> the first film I've seen that specifically takes place in a setting
> where the Sun never sets during the plot, due to it being at/near
> the Arctic Circle. John Carpenter's version of "THE THING"
> (which I liked, generally) goofed on this, by having alternating
> "days and nights" during the course of the action: at a facility
> located in Antarctica (hence, within the Antarctic Circle), there
> would be about 6 months of Day and 6 months of Night.
>
> I've always liked the idea that for 5 to 6 months of the year each
> polar zone has an unending Day (or Night, depending on which
> hemisphere you're in during those months). I once had an idea
> for a vampire story, where some town (perhaps in Scandinavia)
> north of the Arctic Circle is invaded by a gang of vampires who
> never need to get their undead asses back to a coffin during the
> "daytime", since the Sun never rises during those 5 or 6 months.
> I ditched the idea after I read Bram Stoker's novel, though, since
> that whole "Sunlight-kills-vampires" notion is not a true element
> of the Dracula story. In Stoker's novel, Dracula CAN walk around
> in the daytime, but he merely loses his supernatural powers
> when exposed to sunlight--i.e. he can't turn into a Mist, or a Wolf,
> or a Bat when the sunlight has robbed him of the ability. Although
> he CAN'T be killed just by sunlight, he can--of course--be killed
> by getting his head chopped off during his sunlight-induced
> "weakened state" (as happens in the novel). Until I read the
> actual book, I never knew that it was the American--the
> Texan--who killed Dracula. None of the movies I had seen ever
> faithfully depicted the novel (come to think of it, none of the
> versions I've seen since have been strictly faithful, either).
>
> "Insomnia"... go see it. It's great.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 8:54 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: LOVE/HATE

  

I, like you seem to, also have a doubt about this "insectile race"
stuff.

I may have to sue, but that's another story.

<.html

In the movie it's said that the whole Oberon went searching for Leo
(that's why they crashed), so why not send out a pod first. They are a
caring bunch of people who would rather all perish than leave a man (or
chimp) behind. If everyone was like them...well, we'd all be dead.
I'm sure T knows that he needs an agent; they wouldn't read his script
"unsolicited" (Fox worries about being sued too- - they're human). Usually
the way to go is write an outline or a treatment; if they don't want it you
can't sell it to anyone else because it's their property. Besides, they
probably have Zanuck's grandson working on it right now (his style? he likes
the purple crayons).Etc. - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 9:40 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: T's scenario of the Apes


> --- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> >
> > > I'm still waiting on the Message #
> >
> > Wait no longer Patrick. It was message # 17377
>
> *** Thanks, T.
> After reading through it, I've got to say that your scenario is about
> as plausible as Burton's flick's plot... which is about all it needs
> to be, I guess. Granted, Leo MIGHT be "worth another pod" (as
> you suggest), but is he worth another human astronaut?
> Somebody would still have to fly that oversized spermatozoan
> through a wicked bit of space that makes the Mutara Nebula
> from "Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan" look like a cake-walk. I find
> it hard to believe that ANY astronaut would risk his yarbles flying
> after Leo into Nothingness. But, hell, maybe Leo left a lover
> behind who would do ANYTHING for him (especially if he was as
> hung as his Dirk Diggler alter ego), including flying after his
> stupid ass into a miasma of wormholes.
>
> As to how Thade picks up the know-how on piloting the pod not
> only into orbit but beyond it, into the wormholes, and all the way
> to Earth... I dunno. Maybe the astronaut who lands it could've
> pre-programmed it to follow after Leo's trajectory (provided Leo
> left enough bread crumbs behind for ANY pod to track), and so
> Thade just sits back and lets the computer do all the hard work.
>
> T, you should go ahead and write it--don't wait for Zanuck to
> approach you with the offer: just do it. He probably doesn't have
> time to surf any of the Net, let alone this POTA site, so he doesn't
> know that you're ready, willing, and able to pen/type the Sequel.
> But whatever you do, make sure to get William Macy cast in it
> somewhere--after all, he's the "M. Emmet Walsh" of this
> generation. Walsh has been in almost EVERYTHING for over 30
> years... and Macy's got the same type of track record of film
> appearances. Somebody's got ta give Thade his oranges when
> he shows up in "modern-day America"!
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well, if his piloting skills are any indication, I'd say that the chimp was
more worth a pod than him. And judging from the cool response he got from
the gal on the Oberon I doubt she'd go after him. From what I understand it
took more prosthetics to make Whalberg into Dirk Diggler than it did to
Apeify Tim Roth's nose. Though when he told Ari he'd 'show her something
that would change her world', there wasn't an un smirked mug in the house!
Great Bolshi Yarblockos!

<<but is he worth another human astronaut? Somebody would still have to fly
that oversized spermatozoan through a wicked bit of space that makes the
Mutara Nebula from "Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan" look like a cake-walk. I
find
it hard to believe that ANY astronaut would risk his yarbles flying after Leo
into Nothingness.>>

.html  

Is THAT the sort of thing that "T Bagg" was meant
to refer to? If so, then I'd hate to know that "The Destroyer" might
connote!

There you go again, jackass.

<.html

--- In pota@y..., "sand_hill_school" <sand_hill_school@y...>
wrote:

> I searched www.Google.com (click on the images tab)

"Queensboro

> Plaza" and found 78 images. I would post some, but I am not

from the

> area and don't know which ones are helpful. You can try this

ink:

> http://images.google.com/images?
>

q=Queensboro+Plaza&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&hl=en&btnG=Googl
e+Search . Hope

> it works for you. Enjoy.
>
> --Helen
>
> Maybe someone else has suggested this. I haven't waded

through all

> the posts yet.

*** Helen, thanks a googleplex! I haven't surfed there yet, but I
wanted to thank you first. I usually surf through LYCOS, but never
found anything--thanks for the tip about GOOGLE. I'll start giving
those guys my "business".

Patrick

Attachments :

.htmlOk as promised, here are pics of the Beverly Wilshire and the Plaza at Century City.
While searching for these I came across pics of other famous (or maybe infamous) locations. For fun I included them too. Can anyone identify the films and/or TV series they were used? <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 5/27/02 11:41:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

. In Stoker's novel, Dracula CAN walk around
in the daytime, but he merely loses his supernatural powers
when exposed to sunlight--i.e. he can't turn into a Mist, or a Wolf,
or a Bat when the sunlight has robbed him of the ability. Although
he CAN'T be killed just by sunlight, he can--of course--be killed
by getting his head chopped off during his sunlight-induced
"weakened state" (as happens in the novel). Until I read the
actual book, I never knew that it was the American--the
Texan--who killed Dracula. None of the movies I had seen ever
faithfully depicted the novel (come to think of it, none of the
versions I've seen since have been strictly faithful, either).

Dracula is one of my favorite books.  I had hope that the Francis Ford Coppola version would be very faithful to the book, but alas it wasn't.  It's a mistake to make Dracula a romantic figure.  He's a walking pestilence!  There was a British made-for-TV version with Louis Jordan as the Count that was pretty close to Stoker's book, but after seeing the Coppola version, and after the disappointment of the Lolita remake -- not to mention POTA -- I've given up on movies ever being better than the books -- if the books were really good.

-- Rory<.html