I never said God created Man in His own image (Man created God in his own
image). I merely mentioned the idea that there's a grand design, which is
separate from religion. If I believed the Christian dogmas I probably
wouldn't like POTA, or else view it as a satire on evolution. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Jeff's merciful God...


--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> What's your take on the argument that such items as our eyes are too co=
mplex to have "evolved", that the odds the world would turn out as it did
ar=
e astronomical? Not necessarily a particular religion but just the general
n=
otion that there is a God? Basically, did everything "just happen". - -
> Jeff
>
*** There are at least a dozen books on the shelves in the Science
section at Barnes & Noble which more-than-adequately refute the
"complex eye" argument. If "God" made Man in His image, then why the
hell would He create OTHER creatures (like chimpanzees & gorillas)
which are 98.4% IDENTICAL to Man? Why would God create beasts which
are ALMOST exactly in His image? The "comparative anatomy" field of
Science (which was Zira's specialty, remember) gives the lie to the
Creationist nonsense--that Mankind is somehow above the "tooth-and-
claw" of the natural world. Face it, Jeff: we're not Plants or
Protists... we're ANIMALS. We eat & rut & shit & sleep just like all
the other beasties in the Animal kingdom. Our ONLY advantage is that
our brains got slightly bigger (percentile of body mass) and more
complex/convoluted, resulting in our capacity for INTELLIGENT THOUGHT.
For an animal, a chimp is pretty damned smart too... but it didn't
specialize in Smarts. WE did--and that's why Chimps are endangered,
and we're not. We want to believe we're "more than just animals", so
we invented the notion that the Sky God who sends thunder & lightning
& earthquakes & floods created us to be SPECIAL. When scientists first
studied human development through the embryonic stages and discovered
that we have TAILS AND GILLS (which, thankfully, are recessive traits
our distant ancestors once had but which we have evolved away from) in
the earlier stages, that should have made the Creationists pause and
admit that there's NO REASON WHATSOEVER for their "God" to make each
individual Human Being at ANY stage of its development WITH tails or
gills.

Did everything "just" happen? Of course not! Everything happened, yes,
but there was no "just" ("merely") about it. It took BILLIONS of
years, and it was our luck that the protoplanetary disk of dust which
formed into our solar system had a rocky planet 93 million miles out
from that type G star. Luck... chance... call it what you will, but
that's how the universe works. Probably less than 1 star in a million
has a life-bearing planet orbiting it. That's the luck of the draw.
Read up on Chaos theory, and you'll see that Chaos and Complexity are
two sides of the same coin, like Mass and Energy. There are "strange
attractors"... hidden levels of Order in all chaotic systems... and
THAT makes the "chance" events of Evolution possible in a seemingly
Random universe.

Patrick

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 6:33 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Jeff's merciful God...
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > I will pray for you my son. You are an instrument of Patrick! Etc. - =
- =
> - Jeff
>
> *** If you insist on draggin' me into this, then here's my 2¢.
> Question: How many infants did Jehovah murder when he destroyed ALL
> LIFE (except for Noah's Ark-ful) on Earth?
> Answer: Assuming that Flood-myth actually happened, then EVERY SINGLE
> INFANT alive then was murdered by Jehovah.
> Think of it: what would the Earth's population have been roughly 4400
> years ago? A couple million, maybe? How many of those Flood victims
> were pregnant women? On any given day, what percentage of women in the
> world are pregnant? Did their unborn children deserve to be destroyed
> along with all the "sinners" that Jehovah wanted to kill? Did the new-
> born babies suckling at their mothers' teats deserve to drown to
> death? You'd think that an all-powerful "god" could selectively zap
> the bad guys, like the evil Kirk in "Mirror, Mirror" with his secret
> weapon in his Captain's Quarters. But NOOOOO! Jehovah likes committing
> murder... until he's suddenly sorry he did it and puts pretty rainbows
> in the sky as a "sign" that he'll never do THAT again! Yeesh! Mystic
> phooey is RIGHT.
>
> Of course, the Flood myth in Genesis is a monotheistic bastardization
> of the original polytheistic story told in the Gilgamesh epic and the
> Atrahasis epic, from Sumeria. In those original versions, the Storm
> God ENLIL was the one who orchestrated the intentional mass-murder of
> humanity, and his half-brother Sea God ENKI was the Prometheus-like
> protector of the remnant led by Utnapishtim. When the Biblical
> "redactor" took these Sumerian myths (which he probably learned about
> during the "Babylonian Captivity" in the 6th Century B.C.), which the
> Babylonians had kept alive, that Hebrew monotheist re-wrote it and
> thus created a single god who is alternately cruel (Enlil) then
> merciful (Enki); Jehovah--the literary creation of that Redactor--
> could accurately be called a "schizophrenic god".
>
> Patrick
>
> > You know, God. Never heard of Him? He protects Us from harm becau=
se=
> we were created in His image. The animals in the forest live in sin, but=

> He=
> gave up His only son so that the Earth wouldn't swell up like a balloon
> and=
> turn red like Betelguise. Or something like that. Etc.
> =
> - - - Jeff
> >
>
> > Mystic phooey!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
terms/

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 12:02 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Jeff's merciful God...

In a message dated 9/8/02 12:15:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Did everything "just" happen? Of course not! Everything happened, yes,
but there was no "just" ("merely") about it. It took BILLIONS of
years, and it was our luck that the protoplanetary disk of dust which
formed into our solar system had a rocky planet 93 million miles out
from that type G star. Luck... chance... call it what you will, but
that's how the universe works. Probably less than 1 star in a million
has a life-bearing planet orbiting it. That's the luck of the draw.
Read up on Chaos theory, and you'll see that Chaos and Complexity are
two sides of the same coin, like Mass and Energy. There are "strange
attractors"... hidden levels of Order in all chaotic systems... and
THAT makes the "chance" events of Evolution possible in a seemingly
Random universe.

Patrick

I think some people can't really grasp just how long a time a billion years is.  From our perspective, it might as well be an eternity.  It's more than enough time for so many random things to happens that it could be seen as a pattern with thought behind it.  And the Earth is three or four billion years old.  Think how long a hundred years is, then think how long a thousand years is, then think that there are ten one hundred thousands in a million, and a thousand millions in a billion.  That's a hell of a long time.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Because sf films used to be the "B" movies that could get away with stuff
and go off on their own way. Now they're the expensive, scrutinized "A"
films that have to please "everybody" and sell toys. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Add this to the List Too... [OT]


> Rory <Haristas@...> wrote:
> > I'm with you, Ken Taylor, Aussie person. I don't get the whole
> thing with
> > newer SF films. The Matrix -- CRAP! Mad Max -- too eighties.
> MIB2 --
> > trash!
>
> I really don't enjoy the modern efforts as much either - but it's
> strange, I occasionally see newer sf films (certainly no more than one
> a year on average) that I think are excellent but they still don't
> seem as exciting as discovering some old forgotten sf film from before
> I was born that I really enjoy.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yeah? Do you remember where this interview is? Did he say anything about
doing stories to a movie people hated?Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] A few questions....


> Jeff <veetus@...> wrote:
> > 2) no news on the next Quick book; maybe it will be next year,
> >since it was a year between the adaptation and "The Fall"
>
> He said in an interview earlier in the year that he was about to start
> writing it, so I shouldn't imagine you'll have to wait too much
> longer.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I have a used VHS copy. I'll dig it out and see who released it.
Definitely not a major company. I still haven't watched it. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 3:17 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] [OT] I Am Legend


> <LordTZer0@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've heard of that. That I'd like to see. I don't know about one
> with Will
> > Smith. He seems to be cast in everything now, whether he's right
> for the
> > part or not.
>
> You can get the Vincent Price version either (a) on a bootleg video if
> you're desperate (that's where I first saw it) since it doesn't seem
> to show up on TV very often or (b) I think there have been a couple of
> DVD releases of it. Not great quality on the DVD though, be warned - I
> think it might be a public domain effort (I think NOTLD is in the same
> way, hence the plethora of different DVDs available). There's an
> Aussie one, I know that much, but I'm pretty certain it's been
> released in the US too. It's worth a look - a wonderfully grim film,
> it's all about the mood really.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 3:33 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] [OT] I Am Legend

In a message dated 9/8/02 6:21:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, alan@... writes:

You can get the Vincent Price version either (a) on a bootleg video if
you're desperate (that's where I first saw it) since it doesn't seem
to show up on TV very often or (b) I think there have been a couple of
DVD releases of it. Not great quality on the DVD though, be warned - I
think it might be a public domain effort (I think NOTLD is in the same
way, hence the plethora of different DVDs available). There's an
Aussie one, I know that much, but I'm pretty certain it's been
released in the US too. It's worth a look - a wonderfully grim film,
it's all about the mood really.

Alan

No, you can get an offical VHS release (see above), however it's cheaper on DVD where it's on a double-bill with THE HOUSE ON HAUTED HILL.  However, you're right, Alan, beware of the print quality.

I find THE LAST MAN ON EARTH to be pretty boring.  I'd only recommend it if you're a Vincent Price fan, or if you're an I AM LEGEND nut.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

>
> > I'd echo that. I watch a lot of sci-fi films and try as I might I
> > can't understand the appeal of Bladerunner. I felt compelled to watch
> > it more than once (I've watched both versions too) to see what was so
> > special about it and if I was somehow missing something about this
> > supposed classic of the genre, but I gave up trying to understand
> > eventually. I just think it's a tedious pile of mince. I don't think
> > highly of that other "classic" Alien either, but it's all about
> > opinions I suppose.
> >
> >
>
> Well, I guess I'm not alone. And I, too, don't really get what's so great
> about ALIEN either, except for Jerry Goldsmith's music. It's not deep SF. I
> thought ALIENS was better, but apart from the action, ALIENS is even
> shallower than ALIEN.
>
> -- Rory

What I like about Aliens and Alien is the sense of realism. Contrast the Alien
movies with, for example, Star Trek. Instead of a utopian world government you
have the USA simply extending its corporate and military power into outer
space, a more plausible scenario, but with the military depicted as
overconfident and corporate executives depicted as unethical or clueless or
both. Instead of shiny new spaceships you have gritty grimy spaceships.
Instead of a military force beaming down to a planet in seconds you have a
capital ship launching a drop ship, which contains a mobile armored vehicle.
(I have MicroMachines of all three) Instead of a crew depicted as the best and
the brightest you have blue collar workers and military grunts, who must step
up after their leaders have failed. We see greed as a primary motivating force
in some people ("Looks likes she's alive, there goes our salvage rights";
"Those specimens are worth millions to the Bio-Weapons Division".) I would
have really liked to see more of the Aliens universe even without the aliens.

But the Alien movies aren't for everyone. The visuals get pretty gross,
and the first movie is as much a horror (a genre I don't like) movie as
sci-fi. And the third and fourth movies are crap.

.htmlIn a message dated 9/8/02 9:10:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

But it's OK because Jesus died for both you and Patrick, Rory. - - - Jeff

Oh, is that why he died?  I thought the Romans had something to do with it.<.html

Jeff <veetus@...> wrote:

> Yeah? Do you remember where this interview is? Did he say anything

about

> doing stories to a movie people hated?Etc. - - - Jeff

Yeah, the interview with Quick was in the Summer 2002 issue of "Simian
Scrolls", the UK fanzine. I don't think he said anything about people
hating the movie - but in fact he did say that he had a contract for
three Apes books (which I assume are the two he has already written
plus the one that isn't yet out) but that if asked he'd be happy to do
more.

Alan

Does anyone have thoughts on the ape writing or symbolic system seen
on clothing and banners in the early films and TV series?

Any references I can find on the internet usually refer to them
as 'hieroglyphics', but that cannot be the correct word for it. I
found a good page that helps to clarify the difference between
pictograms, logograms, and ideograms.

http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/pic-logo.htm

It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols are
either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an object
by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of that
object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
abstract.

Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on the
internet?

Menluth.

Thanks for the info, Alan. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Maxwell" <alan@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] A few questions....


> Jeff <veetus@...> wrote:
> > Yeah? Do you remember where this interview is? Did he say anything
> about
> > doing stories to a movie people hated?Etc. - - - Jeff
>
> Yeah, the interview with Quick was in the Summer 2002 issue of "Simian
> Scrolls", the UK fanzine. I don't think he said anything about people
> hating the movie - but in fact he did say that he had a contract for
> three Apes books (which I assume are the two he has already written
> plus the one that isn't yet out) but that if asked he'd be happy to do
> more.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well, Brian has shown the group a few times the "E=Mc2" (that 2
signifies "squared") interpretation of the Chimps' glyphs. I guess
that means they are scientists? But whether this interpretation is
accurate or just an overactive imagination is anyone's guess - I am
not totally convinced that the glyphs do represent the theory of
relativity, although they can clearly be interpreted as such. If
they are, then wht was a similar inside joke not applied to the Orang
glyphs??

Anyway, unlike Star Trek (where they have a Klingon dictionary!),
these glyphs remain a mystery and I think they are somply used for
aesthetic purposes.

Michael


--- "Menluth" <menluth@...> wrote:

> Does anyone have thoughts on the ape writing or symbolic system

seen

> on clothing and banners in the early films and TV series?
>
> Any references I can find on the internet usually refer to them
> as 'hieroglyphics', but that cannot be the correct word for it. I
> found a good page that helps to clarify the difference between
> pictograms, logograms, and ideograms.
>
> http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/pic-logo.htm
>
> It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols are
> either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an object
> by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
> represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
> Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of that
> object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
> abstract.
>
> Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on the
> internet?
>
> Menluth.
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> Looking for a more powerful website? Try GeoCities for $8.95 per

month.

> Register your domain name (http://your-name.com). More storage! No

ads!

> http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/aHOo4D/KJoEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>
>
>

I keep hearing them referred to as "glyphs". There's a magazine called
"House" that last summer when the new movie came out introduced a set of
fonts based on the ape glyphs. If you go to www.houseindustries.com and
where it says "search for font kit" select "simian fonts", you can check out
some neat merchandise with this stuff on it. Groovy, baby!
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Menluth" <menluth@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:20 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System


> Does anyone have thoughts on the ape writing or symbolic system seen
> on clothing and banners in the early films and TV series?
>
> Any references I can find on the internet usually refer to them
> as 'hieroglyphics', but that cannot be the correct word for it. I
> found a good page that helps to clarify the difference between
> pictograms, logograms, and ideograms.
>
> http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/pic-logo.htm
>
> It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols are
> either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an object
> by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
> represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
> Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of that
> object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
> abstract.
>
> Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on the
> internet?
>
> Menluth.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

But what does it MEAN???

Are they letters in an alphabet or words?

Michael


--- <veetus@...> wrote:

> I keep hearing them referred to as "glyphs". There's a magazine

called

> "House" that last summer when the new movie came out introduced a

set of

> fonts based on the ape glyphs. If you go to www.houseindustries.com

and

> where it says "search for font kit" select "simian fonts", you can

check out

> some neat merchandise with this stuff on it. Groovy, baby!
> - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Menluth" <menluth@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:20 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System
>
>
> > Does anyone have thoughts on the ape writing or symbolic system

seen

> > on clothing and banners in the early films and TV series?
> >
> > Any references I can find on the internet usually refer to them
> > as 'hieroglyphics', but that cannot be the correct word for it. I
> > found a good page that helps to clarify the difference between
> > pictograms, logograms, and ideograms.
> >
> > http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/pic-logo.htm
> >
> > It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols are
> > either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an

object

> > by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
> > represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
> > Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of that
> > object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
> > abstract.
> >
> > Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on the
> > internet?
> >
> > Menluth.

You mean what does it mean to the apes? I dunno. It's their culture, it's
supposed to be mysterious. What does that insignia mean on the bottom of the
feet of the POTA2001 figures. It's a mystery, baby!
- - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System


> But what does it MEAN???
>
> Are they letters in an alphabet or words?
>
> Michael
>
>
> --- <veetus@...> wrote:
> > I keep hearing them referred to as "glyphs". There's a magazine
> called
> > "House" that last summer when the new movie came out introduced a
> set of
> > fonts based on the ape glyphs. If you go to www.houseindustries.com
> and
> > where it says "search for font kit" select "simian fonts", you can
> check out
> > some neat merchandise with this stuff on it. Groovy, baby!
> > - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Menluth" <menluth@...>
> > To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:20 PM
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System
> >
> >
> > > Does anyone have thoughts on the ape writing or symbolic system
> seen
> > > on clothing and banners in the early films and TV series?
> > >
> > > Any references I can find on the internet usually refer to them
> > > as 'hieroglyphics', but that cannot be the correct word for it. I
> > > found a good page that helps to clarify the difference between
> > > pictograms, logograms, and ideograms.
> > >
> > > http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/pic-logo.htm
> > >
> > > It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols are
> > > either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an
> object
> > > by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
> > > represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
> > > Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of that
> > > object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
> > > abstract.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on the
> > > internet?
> > >
> > > Menluth.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

It means the apes had learned to read and write Chinese. Obviously they
could read the Latin alphabet as well.

Patrick can explain all this in much greater detail.

> But what does it MEAN???
>
> Are they letters in an alphabet or words?
>
> Michael
>
>
> --- <veetus@...> wrote:
> > I keep hearing them referred to as "glyphs". There's a magazine
> called
> > "House" that last summer when the new movie came out introduced a
> set of
> > fonts based on the ape glyphs. If you go to www.houseindustries.com
> and
> > where it says "search for font kit" select "simian fonts", you can
> check out
> > some neat merchandise with this stuff on it. Groovy, baby!
> > - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Menluth" <menluth@...>
> > To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:20 PM
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System
> >
> >
> > > Does anyone have thoughts on the ape writing or symbolic system
> seen
> > > on clothing and banners in the early films and TV series?
> > >
> > > Any references I can find on the internet usually refer to them
> > > as 'hieroglyphics', but that cannot be the correct word for it. I
> > > found a good page that helps to clarify the difference between
> > > pictograms, logograms, and ideograms.
> > >
> > > http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/pic-logo.htm
> > >
> > > It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols are
> > > either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an
> object
> > > by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
> > > represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
> > > Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of that
> > > object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
> > > abstract.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on the
> > > internet?
> > >
> > > Menluth.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>
>

No offense intended, but I am not looking for an hypothesis, but
rather an explanation by those who would know what was intended.

I have been fascinated by this since childhood (I too drew a lot of
ape pictyures and I was challenged to try to get the glyphs right as
I only had photos to go by).

MIchael

--- Melkor <melkor@...> wrote:

>
> It means the apes had learned to read and write Chinese. Obviously

they

> could read the Latin alphabet as well.
>
> Patrick can explain all this in much greater detail.
>
>
>
> > But what does it MEAN???
> >
> > Are they letters in an alphabet or words?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> > --- <veetus@...> wrote:
> > > I keep hearing them referred to as "glyphs". There's a

magazine

> > called
> > > "House" that last summer when the new movie came out introduced

a

> > set of
> > > fonts based on the ape glyphs. If you go to

www.houseindustries.com

> > and
> > > where it says "search for font kit" select "simian fonts", you

can

> > check out
> > > some neat merchandise with this stuff on it. Groovy, baby!
> > > - - - Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Menluth" <menluth@...>
> > > To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 8:20 PM
> > > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System
> > >
> > >
> > > > Does anyone have thoughts on the ape writing or symbolic

system

> > seen
> > > > on clothing and banners in the early films and TV series?
> > > >
> > > > Any references I can find on the internet usually refer to

them

> > > > as 'hieroglyphics', but that cannot be the correct word for

it. I

> > > > found a good page that helps to clarify the difference between
> > > > pictograms, logograms, and ideograms.
> > > >
> > > > http://victorian.fortunecity.com/vangogh/555/Spell/pic-

logo.htm

> > > >
> > > > It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols

are

> > > > either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an
> > object
> > > > by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
> > > > represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
> > > > Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of

that

> > > > object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
> > > > abstract.
> > > >
> > > > Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on

the

> > > > internet?
> > > >
> > > > Menluth.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> Plan to Sell a Home?
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

Don't think so.

I like your user name.....



--- "aicuinpyvymi" <aicuinpyvymi@...> wrote:

> http://driana8djwz.tripod.com/index.html"

>
> I have been fascinated by this since childhood (I too drew a lot of
> ape pictyures and I was challenged to try to get the glyphs right as
> I only had photos to go by).
>
> MIchael

Well I haven't seen this as an official explanation anywhere (you're probably
not going to get one) but what I have always assumed is that each glyph
represents a mark of achievement or status. The more glyphs an ape wears on
his suit the higher his status. Dr. Zaius has many, Cornelius and Zira have a
few and Julius (I think) has one. Lucius doesn't have any.

-Tom

Attachments :

.htmlIn a message dated 9/9/02 11:21:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, menluth@... writes:

It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols are
either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an object
by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of that
object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
abstract.

Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on the
internet?

Menluth.

I think you're right there with "logograms."  They could also be called emblems, I guess.  The ones that Cornelius and Zira wear seem to be only on the chimpanzees and then only on those chimps that have a certain Academic status.  I believe they are "logograms" or "emblems" of status among the apes.  As to what they actually mean, well, who can say?  The Lawgiver statue for instance. . . .


It has three main "emblems" with a half sphere symbol above them and a smaller fourth emblem below.  Now the third emblem down is the one that Cornelius and Zira have on their chests.  Could this be the highest emblem the chimps can receive?  And since there are three on the Lawgiver, could the two above the chimpanzee one represent one each for the gorillas and orangutans?

Dr. Zaius seems to have some of the emblems seen on the Lawgiver statue, in the top emblem on the statue and at the very bottom.  Perhaps that backward D & C could has some sort of religious authority to it.  Zaius is the Chief Defender of the Faith.  Honorius also wears this emblem and he was prosecuting Zira and Cornelius in the name of the Faith.

Some of the gorilla hunters in PLANET had "glyphs" or "emblems" or  "logograms" on their ammo belts.  Julius had one on his chest, and Ursus had one on his helmet.  As to what all this means, I think the only one ho could answer that is the costum designer Morton Haack, and he's been dead since 1987.  But I'll bet he would just say they were made up symbols to show different ranking among the apes.

-- Rory <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/9/02 11:44:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

Well, Brian has shown the group a few times the "E=Mc2" (that 2
signifies "squared") interpretation of the Chimps' glyphs.  I guess
that means they are scientists? 

Hey, I'm the one that came up with that.  Brian just illustrated it.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 12:51:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, melkor@... writes:

It means the apes had learned to read and write Chinese.  Obviously they
could read the Latin alphabet as well. 

Patrick can explain all this in much greater detail.

Well, I guess we have to wait until the weekend to hear from him.  I don't think the "glyphs" represent letters in an alphabet since it seemed the apes both spoke and read in English.  They were after all American slave apes.  You know what would have been cool is if in CONQUEST those "glyphs" or emblems had been used by Ape Management to classify different rankings among the slaves, and the apes had just taken them and adapted them for their society.

-- Rory

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 1:06:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

No offense intended, but I am not looking for an hypothesis, but
rather an explanation by those who would know what was intended.

I have been fascinated by this since childhood (I too drew a lot of
ape pictyures and I was challenged to try to get the glyphs right as
I only had photos to go by).

MIchael

Well, stop being such a baby and postulate, Michael, postulate!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 9:32:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, melkor@... writes:

Well I haven't seen this as an official explanation anywhere (you're probably
not going to get one) but what I have always assumed is that each glyph
represents a mark of achievement or status.  The more glyphs an ape wears on
his suit the higher his status.  Dr.  Zaius has many, Cornelius and Zira have a
few and Julius (I think) has one.  Lucius doesn't have any.

-Tom

That's a good postulation!

-- Rory<.html

> > It means the apes had learned to read and write Chinese. Obviously they
> > could read the Latin alphabet as well.
> >
> > Patrick can explain all this in much greater detail.
>
> Well, I guess we have to wait until the weekend to hear from him. I don't
> think the "glyphs" represent letters in an alphabet since it seemed the apes
> both spoke and read in English. They were after all American slave apes.

Some Chinese apes hopped on board Australia as it was being pole shifted to the
northern hemisphere. That explains why the apes also used Chinese.

> You know what would have been cool is if in CONQUEST those "glyphs" or
> emblems had been used by Ape Management to classify different rankings among
> the slaves, and the apes had just taken them and adapted them for their
> society.

No one in BATTLE is wearing them (except the Lawgiver?). I don't think
they had been invented yet.

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 1:36:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, melkor@... writes:

No one in BATTLE is wearing them (except the Lawgiver?).  I don't think
they had been invented yet.

Well, I said it WOULD HAVE been cool in CONQUEST.  What isn't cool in BATTLE is the apes wearing the same costums they'd be wearing two thousand years in the future -- if you believe in the circular timeline, but let's not get that started again!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlThis was on Cinescape.com today.  Now, maybe this movie will happen, but it's still a long way off.  As for me it's still in the "don't hold your breath" stage.

Movie News
Ford confirms INDIANA JONES scheduling
Best indication yet the film is coming
Dateline: Tuesday, September 10, 2002

By: CHRISTOPHER ALLAN SMITH
By: News Editor
Source: Cinema Confidential

A few months back, Steven Spielberg and George Lucas announced YOUNG INDIANA JONES and SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION writer Frank Darabont would be penning the fourth INDIANA JONES film, and that it would be released in the summer of 2005.

Since then, Harrison Ford has vacillated between comments of the "yes-it-is-coming-and-I'm-excited-to-do-it," to, "well-maybe-if-we-like-the-script-we'll-do-it" variety. Now it seems it is coming.

While promoting K-19 THE WIDOWMAKER, Ford reportedly confirmed, "Steven Spielberg and myself have reserved time in 2004 to begin shooting." This comes after a decade of supposed development, and more than two fully-written-and-now-discarded-scripts for the film.

We'll see what he has to say next week and get back to you.






<.html

>
> In a message dated 9/10/02 1:36:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> melkor@... writes:
>
>
> > No one in BATTLE is wearing them (except the Lawgiver?). I don't think
> > they had been invented yet.
> >
>
> Well, I said it WOULD HAVE been cool in CONQUEST. What isn't cool in BATTLE
> is the apes wearing the same costums they'd be wearing two thousand years in
> the future -- if you believe in the circular timeline, but let's not get that
> started again!

I agree that using the same fashions for 2000 years is unlikely but it's not
impossible. It could happen in the altered timeline too. Maybe the same ape
or apes designed the suits in both timelines but the glyphs came later. Aldo
didn't use an Urses style helmet because it's purpose was to display the
status glyphs.

Good point - but what about the gorillas?

The general has none, but Marcus has one. Maybe glyphs are civilian
only....or by Beneath they were overlooked (as difficult as that may
be to believe....).

Michael

--- Melkor <melkor@...> wrote:

> >
> > I have been fascinated by this since childhood (I too drew a lot

of

> > ape pictyures and I was challenged to try to get the glyphs right

as

> > I only had photos to go by).
> >
> > MIchael
>
> Well I haven't seen this as an official explanation anywhere

(you're probably

> not going to get one) but what I have always assumed is that each

glyph

> represents a mark of achievement or status. The more glyphs an ape

wears on

> his suit the higher his status. Dr. Zaius has many, Cornelius and

Zira have a

> few and Julius (I think) has one. Lucius doesn't have any.
>
> -Tom
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

Not nessesarily. In more primative societies fashions tend to remain
static. The uniform of the roman army stayed virtually the same for
over 1,000 years. The same is true of the fashions of the Egyptians
over an even longer time frame. While there were many variations
through the centuries, the same basic designs remained.

P.S. There's only one timeline:-P

--- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> I agree that using the same fashions for 2000 years is unlikely
but it's not
> impossible.

Ursus had them on his hat and collar (the same as Aldo in Battle).

--- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Good point - but what about the gorillas?
>
> The general has none, but Marcus has one. Maybe glyphs are
civilian
> only....or by Beneath they were overlooked (as difficult as that
may
> be to believe....).
>
> Michael
>

.htmlWOW!  Here the PLANET OF THE APES video game we all wanted but never got!  Look at those graphics!

Planet of the Apes Unreleased Prototype by 20th Century Fox for the Atari 2600 System.Date on label reads 4/13/83.Game is playable with sound.Very cool game with the Apes armed with guns trying to capture you then bring you to their village.Make your way through many different levels avoiding the Apes and sandpits to escape from the Planet of the Apes!














<.html

I have been warned that excessive postulation can cause blindness.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/10/02 1:06:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> whitty@... writes:
>
>
> > No offense intended, but I am not looking for an hypothesis, but
> > rather an explanation by those who would know what was intended.
> >
> > I have been fascinated by this since childhood (I too drew a lot

of

> > ape pictyures and I was challenged to try to get the glyphs right

as

> > I only had photos to go by).
> >
> > MIchael
> >
> >
>
> Well, stop being such a baby and postulate, Michael, postulate!
>
> -- Rory
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 7:01:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Not nessesarily. In more primative societies fashions tend to remain
static. The uniform of the roman army stayed virtually the same for
over 1,000 years. The same is true of the fashions of the Egyptians
over an even longer time frame. While there were many variations
through the centuries, the same basic designs remained.

P.S. There's only one timeline:-P

Good point, and almost as sharp as the one on your head if you think there's just one timeline!  :-P<.html

I'm just quoting Paul Dehn and 20th Century Fox. Don't be so
sensitive;-)

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> Good point, and almost as sharp as the one on your head if you
think there's
> just one timeline! :-P

Attachments :

.html
Anybody here got this book?  I've never seen it before.  Is it something just released?
<.html

I had forgotten about Ursus' Helmet. Of course he has glyphs!

Michael

--- "whitty@..." <whitty@...> wrote:

> Good point - but what about the gorillas?
>
> The general has none, but Marcus has one. Maybe glyphs are

civilian

> only....or by Beneath they were overlooked (as difficult as that

may

> be to believe....).
>
> Michael
>
> --- Melkor <melkor@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have been fascinated by this since childhood (I too drew a

lot

> of
> > > ape pictyures and I was challenged to try to get the glyphs

right

> as
> > > I only had photos to go by).
> > >
> > > MIchael
> >
> > Well I haven't seen this as an official explanation anywhere
> (you're probably
> > not going to get one) but what I have always assumed is that each
> glyph
> > represents a mark of achievement or status. The more glyphs an

ape

> wears on
> > his suit the higher his status. Dr. Zaius has many, Cornelius

and

> Zira have a
> > few and Julius (I think) has one. Lucius doesn't have any.
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ -------------------

--

> ~-->
> > 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> -~->
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> Plan to Sell a Home?
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 7:11:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

I'm just quoting Paul Dehn and 20th Century Fox. Don't be so
sensitive;-)

Gorilla crap!<.html

Well you'd be the expert on that;-) LOL

BTW What did the apes use for toilet paper? Did they fold or crumble?

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> Gorilla crap!

.htmlHey, this is on eBay right now from Australia.  Do either Michael or Ken have this?

This is the NEWTON Planet of the Apes Series NEWTON COMICS. It is one of the giant 100 page issues!!This issue was published in 1976 and is great reading. This comic magazine is in Great condition!! I WOULD SAY IT IS NEAR MINT! It features a range of stories and interviews/articles. Any questions please feel free to contact me. Please see my other auctions including some more "Planet of the Apes"

Click here: eBay item 2100200044 (Ends Sep-20-02 05:25:44 PDT ) - NEWTON PLANET OF THE APES- GIANT- NEAR MINT!

<.html

It has been a llong time since I illustrated these! Yes, the armour
chest plating has it too.

If I dig up any old pictures I'll scan them for a laugh.

Michael

--- "james611102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:

> Ursus had them on his hat and collar (the same as Aldo in Battle).
>
> --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Good point - but what about the gorillas?
> >
> > The general has none, but Marcus has one. Maybe glyphs are
> civilian
> > only....or by Beneath they were overlooked (as difficult as that
> may
> > be to believe....).
> >
> > Michael
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

I saw this yesterday.

I wonder if anyone else is sceptical as to whether you can determine
how these figures can actually be IDENTIFIED as APES!!!!

I think this could be a great CON JOB!!!!

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> WOW! Here the PLANET OF THE APES video game we all wanted but

never got!

> Look at those graphics!
>
> Planet of the Apes Unreleased Prototype by 20th Century Fox for the

Atari

> 2600 System.Date on label reads 4/13/83.Game is playable with

sound.Very cool

> game with the Apes armed with guns trying to capture you then bring

you to

> their village.Make your way through many different levels avoiding

the Apes

> and sandpits to escape from the Planet of the Apes!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 7:22:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

I saw this yesterday.

I wonder if anyone else is sceptical as to whether you can determine
how these figures can actually be IDENTIFIED as APES!!!!

I think this could be a great CON JOB!!!!

Michael

APES fan or not, who would want it?  And for $1000.00?!!!!   Greedy human bastard!<.html

I have sure never seen this before.

Looks like a Collectors' Guide.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

>
> Anybody here got this book? I've never seen it before. Is it

something just

> released?
> [Unable to display image]
>

I have this.

I have been meaning to ask the group about it. I think this COULD be
an original (I seem to remember something about a wedding taking
place here too). Ken, is this an original story or just taken from
the US Marvel Magazine?

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> Hey, this is on eBay right now from Australia. Do either Michael

or Ken

> have this?
>
> This is the NEWTON Planet of the Apes Series NEWTON COMICS. It is

one of th

> e
> giant 100 page issues!!This issue was published in 1976 and is

great readin

> g.
> This comic magazine is in Great condition!! I WOULD SAY IT IS NEAR

MINT! It

>
> features a range of stories and interviews/articles. Any questions

please

> feel free to contact me. Please see my other auctions including

some more

> "Planet of the Apes"
>
>
>
> <A HREF="http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?

ViewItem&item=2100200

> 044">Click here: eBay item 2100200044 (Ends Sep-20-02�05:25:44

PDT ) - NE

> WTON
> PLANET OF THE APES- GIANT- NEAR MINT!</A>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 7:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

I have sure never seen this before.

Looks like a Collectors' Guide.

Michael

Yes, of course.  Someone is selling it on EBay.<.html

If it had something other than a handwritten label on sticky tape to
offer as verification (eg the logo on a introductory screen or
something), MAYBE. But I think this has CON written all over it.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/10/02 7:22:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> whitty@... writes:
>
>
> > I saw this yesterday.
> >
> > I wonder if anyone else is sceptical as to whether you can

determine

> > how these figures can actually be IDENTIFIED as APES!!!!
> >
> > I think this could be a great CON JOB!!!!
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
>
> APES fan or not, who would want it? And for $1000.00?!!!! Greedy

human

> bastard!
>

Could you please send an ebay link?

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

>
> Anybody here got this book? I've never seen it before. Is it

something just

> released?
> [Unable to display image]
>

Attachments :

.htmlOh, somebody has to be kidding with this!  What kind of a toy is a cardboard box!  Pathetic!




Click here: eBay item 1766165896 (Ends Sep-15-02 18:51:19 PDT ) - NEW Planet of the Apes Zaius MIB CUSTOM! <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/02 7:45:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, csruorroegzp@... writes:

http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/keuadb/index.htmlbr>

Hey, when is this asshole going to stop?!<.html

Attachments :

.html Could you please send an ebay link?

Michael

Click here: eBay item 1766566064 (Ends Sep-15-02 09:16:55 PDT ) - Lee's Guide to Planet of the Apes
<.html

Crikey!

Michael


--- Haristas@... wrote:

> Oh, somebody has to be kidding with this! What kind of a toy is a

cardboa

> rd
> box! Pathetic!
>
> [Unable to display image]
>
>
> <A HREF="http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?

ViewItem&item=1766165

> 896">Click here: eBay item 1766165896 (Ends Sep-15-02�18:51:19

PDT ) - NE

> W Planet
> of the Apes Zaius MIB CUSTOM!</A>
>

.htmlDoes anyone here know anything about a Malibu Comic adaptation of MONKEY PLANET?  Someone is selling one on eBay, but with no picture.  Is it a comic adaptation of Boulle's novel?  If so, how is it?

-- Rory<.html

Attachments :

.htmlBoy, somebody wants a lot for this item!


Click here: eBay item 1562055396 (Ends Sep-18-02 04:42:50 PDT ) - Planet of the Apes first english translation

<.html

It is actually a compilation of the original Marvel Planet series,
given the cover tiltle of Monkey Planet.

I was caught too....had I realized what this was I never would have
bought it as I have all the originals.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> Does anyone here know anything about a Malibu Comic adaptation of

MONKEY

> PLANET? Someone is selling one on eBay, but with no picture. Is

it a comic

> adaptation of Boulle's novel? If so, how is it?
>
> -- Rory
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/2002 8:33:04 AM Central Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

Well I haven't seen this as an official explanation anywhere (you're probably
not going to get one) but what I have always assumed is that each glyph
represents a mark of achievement or status.  The more glyphs an ape wears on
his suit the higher his status.  Dr.  Zaius has many, Cornelius and Zira have a
few and Julius (I think) has one.  Lucius doesn't have any.

-Tom

I'd agree with this idea of your's. I'm also of the opinion that they symbolize "status." (The only thing that I can think of that'd throw this off course is the child gorilla (at the funeral) in Planet. He, being so young, wouldn't have status, but he does have the symbols, maybe he's related to a very high up gorilla (perhaps that was his father or grandfather in that casket? If so, perhaps he'd have status just from being related to such an honored ape. But, enough about that...)

You pointed out Lucius' lack of symbols... If you remember, in the tv series, Galen is also without them. Had he became the assistant to Zaius as he was in line to be, I'm sure he'd have received them as well...

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/2002 10:05:58 AM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

Well, Brian has shown the group a few times the "E=Mc2" (that 2
signifies "squared") interpretation of the Chimps' glyphs.  I guess
that means they are scientists?  

Hey, I'm the one that came up with that.  Brian just illustrated it.

-- Rory

I got thinking about this now... In the Planet of the Apes magazines from the 70's there's an interview with Bill and Paula (?) and they talked about what they thought some of the Apes symbols meant... If someone in here doesn't beat me to it, I'll dig out my copies and post what they had to say on the subject. <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/2002 6:01:18 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Good point - but what about the gorillas?

The general has none, but Marcus has one.  Maybe glyphs are civilian
only....or by Beneath they were overlooked (as difficult as that may
be to believe....).

Michael

General Ursus does indeed have them on both his helmet and his studded collar, so they apply to the military as well as "civilians."

<.html

That would be great Mr Cougar.

I am thinking arather than STATUS maybe they identify FUNCTION (eg
Surgeon, General, Priest etc).

Michael

--- mlccougar@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/10/2002 10:05:58 AM Central Standard Time,
> Haristas@... writes:
>
>
> >
> > >> Well, Brian has shown the group a few times the "EMc2" (that 2
> >> signifies "squared") interpretation of the Chimps' glyphs. I

guess

> >> that means they are scientists?
> >
> > Hey, I'm the one that came up with that. Brian just illustrated

it.

> >
> > -- Rory
>
> I got thinking about this now... In the Planet of the Apes

magazines from the

> 70's there's an interview with Bill and Paula (?) and they talked

about what

> they thought some of the Apes symbols meant... If someone in here

doesn't

> beat me to it, I'll dig out my copies and post what they had to say

on the

> subject.
>

As a PROJECT (if I had the resources) I would love to have pictures
of all the glyphs seen in Planet (first then maybe others) and a list
of who they belonged to and try to make sense of them.

Anyone want to start taking stills?

By the way, it is already September 11 here. Our thoughts are with
you.

Michael

--- "whitty@..." <whitty@...> wrote:

> That would be great Mr Cougar.
>
> I am thinking arather than STATUS maybe they identify FUNCTION (eg
> Surgeon, General, Priest etc).
>
> Michael
>
> --- mlccougar@... wrote:
> > In a message dated 9/10/2002 10:05:58 AM Central Standard Time,
> > Haristas@... writes:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >> Well, Brian has shown the group a few times the "EMc2" (that

2

> > >> signifies "squared") interpretation of the Chimps' glyphs. I
> guess
> > >> that means they are scientists?
> > >
> > > Hey, I'm the one that came up with that. Brian just

illustrated

> it.
> > >
> > > -- Rory
> >
> > I got thinking about this now... In the Planet of the Apes
> magazines from the
> > 70's there's an interview with Bill and Paula (?) and they talked
> about what
> > they thought some of the Apes symbols meant... If someone in here
> doesn't
> > beat me to it, I'll dig out my copies and post what they had to

say

> on the
> > subject.
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

Attachments :

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/2002 6:17:48 PM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

Anybody here got this book?  I've never seen it before.  Is it something just released?
ðäÆ

I never seen this book at all... Where did you dig this picture up and how much did they want for it? It's definitely newer though, because ("unfortunately") it has one of those "new" ones on the cover, mixed in with the regular apes... <.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/2002 6:30:39 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

I have this.

I have been meaning to ask the group about it.  I think this COULD be
an original (I seem to remember something about a wedding taking
place here too).  Ken, is this an original story or just taken from
the US Marvel Magazine?

Michael

Well, looking at the cover it says "Kingdom On An Island of the Apes." This was indeed a story taken from the US Marvel Magazine. (And in my opinion, NOT a very good one at that...)

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/2002 7:41:46 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

It is actually a compilation of the original Marvel Planet series,
given the cover tiltle of Monkey Planet.

I was caught too....had I realized what this was I never would have
bought it as I have all the originals.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:
> Does anyone here know anything about a Malibu Comic adaptation of
MONKEY
> PLANET?  Someone is selling one on eBay, but with no picture.  Is
it a comic
> adaptation of Boulle's novel?  If so, how is it?
>
> -- Rory

ACTUALLY, it is NOT any of the Marvel stuff, but a compilation of the (Malibu Graphics) Adventure comics... They did do three Marvel compilations though, (those being Planet, Beneath, and Escape) so I can see where the confusion might have came from...<.html

Very good Mr Cougar, that's why I felt so ripped off.....because it
was just the first 6 or so episodes of the (Malibu Graphics)
Adventure comics series and that was AWFUL.

I remember seeing it at a stre in Sydney and getting very excited
that someone had finally adapted the original novel (a completely
worthy idea if you ask me!!!). I rushed back to the hotel to read it
and exlaimed "D'oh!!".

What a waste of space.

Michael

--- mlccougar@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/10/2002 7:41:46 PM Central Standard Time,
> whitty@... writes:
>
>
> > It is actually a compilation of the original Marvel Planet

series,

> > given the cover tiltle of Monkey Planet.
> >
> > I was caught too....had I realized what this was I never would

have

> > bought it as I have all the originals.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- Haristas@... wrote:
> > > Does anyone here know anything about a Malibu Comic adaptation

of

> > MONKEY
> > > PLANET? Someone is selling one on eBay, but with no picture.

Is

> > it a comic
> > > adaptation of Boulle's novel? If so, how is it?
> > >
> > > -- Rory
>
> ACTUALLY, it is NOT any of the Marvel stuff, but a compilation of

the (Malibu

> Graphics) Adventure comics... They did do three Marvel compilations

though,

> (those being Planet, Beneath, and Escape) so I can see where the

confusion

> might have came from...
>

Actually I think this is just a 6 page section from a larger
collctor's Monthly magazine - not actually a POTA collector's book.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> Could you please send an ebay link?
>
> Michael
>
> <A HREF="http://cgi.aol.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?

ViewItem&item=1766566

> 064">Click here: eBay item 1766566064 (Ends Sep-15-02�09:16:55

PDT ) - Le

> e's Guide
> to Planet of the Apes</A>
> [Unable to display image]
>

.html

WOW!  Here the PLANET OF THE APES video game we all wanted but never got!  Look at those graphics!

The pictures aren't coming through.
Is anyone else getting them?<.html

.html

  You mean what does it mean to the apes?

Here's a theory.  The Japanese invented the Hiragana writing system because too hard for the women, and probably many of the men, to learn Kanji, the Chinese characters.  You have to know over 3000 of them just to read a newspaper!  Perhaps when the apes split from human culture, they wanted a writing system that was their own as well.  But it was so hard to learn, they went back to English.

<.html

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:00 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System

In a message dated 9/9/02 11:21:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, menluth@... writes:

It seems to me, from these definitions, that the ape symbols are
either pictograms (symbols that make a vague reference to an object
by sharing a shape/contour, etc.) or logograms (symbols that
represent a word, but do not actually look like the object).
Hieroglyphics visually represent an object, or attribute of that
object. That rules out the apes symbols as they are much too
abstract.

Any thoughts? Are there any web pages with these symbols on the
internet?

Menluth.

I think you're right there with "logograms."  They could also be called emblems, I guess.  The ones that Cornelius and Zira wear seem to be only on the chimpanzees and then only on those chimps that have a certain Academic status.  I believe they are "logograms" or "emblems" of status among the apes.  As to what they actually mean, well, who can say?  The Lawgiver statue for instance. . . .


It has three main "emblems" with a half sphere symbol above them and a smaller fourth emblem below.  Now the third emblem down is the one that Cornelius and Zira have on their chests.  Could this be the highest emblem the chimps can receive?  And since there are three on the Lawgiver, could the two above the chimpanzee one represent one each for the gorillas and orangutans?

Dr. Zaius seems to have some of the emblems seen on the Lawgiver statue, in the top emblem on the statue and at the very bottom.  Perhaps that backward D & C could has some sort of religious authority to it.  Zaius is the Chief Defender of the Faith.  Honorius also wears this emblem and he was prosecuting Zira and Cornelius in the name of the Faith.

Some of the gorilla hunters in PLANET had "glyphs" or "emblems" or  "logograms" on their ammo belts.  Julius had one on his chest, and Ursus had one on his helmet.  As to what all this means, I think the only one ho could answer that is the costum designer Morton Haack, and he's been dead since 1987.  But I'll bet he would just say they were made up symbols to show different ranking among the apes.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

I still stand by the idea that Cornelius sketched the ape costumes for
Armando during their down time and Caesar saw them. Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System


> >
> > In a message dated 9/10/02 1:36:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > melkor@... writes:
> >
> >
> > > No one in BATTLE is wearing them (except the Lawgiver?). I don't
think
> > > they had been invented yet.
> > >
> >
> > Well, I said it WOULD HAVE been cool in CONQUEST. What isn't cool in
BATTLE
> > is the apes wearing the same costums they'd be wearing two thousand
years in
> > the future -- if you believe in the circular timeline, but let's not get
that
> > started again!
>
> I agree that using the same fashions for 2000 years is unlikely but it's
not
> impossible. It could happen in the altered timeline too. Maybe the same
ape
> or apes designed the suits in both timelines but the glyphs came later.
Aldo
> didn't use an Urses style helmet because it's purpose was to display the
> status glyphs.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

And Urko wore the same hat as Ursus (literally, though probably not
story-wise). - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System


> Ursus had them on his hat and collar (the same as Aldo in Battle).
>
> --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Good point - but what about the gorillas?
> >
> > The general has none, but Marcus has one. Maybe glyphs are
> civilian
> > only....or by Beneath they were overlooked (as difficult as that
> may
> > be to believe....).
> >
> > Michael
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 4:12 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Lee's POTA collector's book

Anybody here got this book?  I've never seen it before.  Is it something just released?


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/2002 8:53:10 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Very good Mr Cougar, that's why I felt so ripped off.....because it
was just the first 6 or so episodes of the (Malibu Graphics)
Adventure comics series and that was AWFUL.

I remember seeing it at a stre in Sydney and getting very excited
that someone had finally adapted the original novel (a completely
worthy idea if you ask me!!!).  I rushed back to the hotel to read it
and exlaimed "D'oh!!".

What a waste of space.

I agree with you, it was a "waste of space"... I mean Malibu should have done an adaption of Boulle's book in comic form, but they didn't... No, instead they gave the world of Apedom that long lasting, ever fantastic, super great story line called Ape City, and the even greater mini-series called ApeNation.. Ahh the great memories reading those will bring to so many...<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/10/2002 9:37:50 PM Central Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

WOW!  Here the PLANET OF THE APES video game we all wanted but never got!  Look at those graphics!

The pictures aren't coming through.
Is anyone else getting them?

I got them on my postings... You aren't missing anything by not seeing them though...<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:10 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Monkey Planet comic?

Does anyone here know anything about a Malibu Comic adaptation of MONKEY PLANET?  Someone is selling one on eBay, but with no picture.  Is it a comic adaptation of Boulle's novel?  If so, how is it?

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 5:30 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Check out eBay item 1562055396 (Ends Sep-18-02 04:42:50 PDT ) - Planet of the

Boy, somebody wants a lot for this item!


Click here: eBay item 1562055396 (Ends Sep-18-02 04:42:50 PDT ) - Planet of the Apes first english translation



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

It's possible that Lewis and Stevie suspected Armando of having the real
baby Milo and gave him the clothes that Zira and Cornelius were wearing.

ABMAC

On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:58 PM, <veetus@...>
wrote:

> I still stand by the idea that Cornelius sketched the ape costumes for
> Armando during their down time and Caesar saw them. Etc. - - - Jeff

Keeping that stuff around would be pretty incriminating. And how would
Caesar know what the gorillas and orangs wore. Why is it so hard to believe
that Armando was curious about their culture and during a discussion with
Cornelius some sketches were drawn. "This is what our gorillas wore." (It
wasn't our wore, it was the gorillas' wore!) He probably even told him what
the glyphs meant, the lucky Spaniard! - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System


> It's possible that Lewis and Stevie suspected Armando of having the real
> baby Milo and gave him the clothes that Zira and Cornelius were wearing.
>
> ABMAC
>
> On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 10:58 PM, <veetus@...>
> wrote:
>
> > I still stand by the idea that Cornelius sketched the ape costumes for
> > Armando during their down time and Caesar saw them. Etc. - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

OK, maybe Cornelius drew the orang and gorilla outfits, but he wouldn't
need to draw the chimp outfits, since he and Zira were wearing them in
Armando's presence. I prefer to believe that one of the slave apes from
Breck's city came up with the orang and gorilla outfit designs
independently. Someone from the past had to come up with the designs
before the time of Zira and Cornelius or there'd be a paradox.

ABMAC

On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 11:23 PM, <veetus@...>
wrote:

> Keeping that stuff around would be pretty incriminating. And how would
> Caesar know what the gorillas and orangs wore. Why is it so hard to
> believe
> that Armando was curious about their culture and during a discussion
> with
> Cornelius some sketches were drawn. "This is what our gorillas wore."
> (It
> wasn't our wore, it was the gorillas' wore!) He probably even told him
> what
> the glyphs meant, the lucky Spaniard! - - - Jeff

You're dealing with a paradox anyway, since Cornelius and Zira change the
world in a big way by their presence, as does Caesar. Just because they're
wearing the chimp clothes doesn't mean he wouldn't draw it for comparison.
There's no way the authorities would give their clothes to Lewis and Stevie.
I imagine it ended up like the Ark in "Raiders", some government warehouse
somewhere (though what happened to the clothes might make an interesting
comics story). - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System


> OK, maybe Cornelius drew the orang and gorilla outfits, but he wouldn't
> need to draw the chimp outfits, since he and Zira were wearing them in
> Armando's presence. I prefer to believe that one of the slave apes from
> Breck's city came up with the orang and gorilla outfit designs
> independently. Someone from the past had to come up with the designs
> before the time of Zira and Cornelius or there'd be a paradox.
>
> ABMAC
>
> On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 11:23 PM, <veetus@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Keeping that stuff around would be pretty incriminating. And how would
> > Caesar know what the gorillas and orangs wore. Why is it so hard to
> > believe
> > that Armando was curious about their culture and during a discussion
> > with
> > Cornelius some sketches were drawn. "This is what our gorillas wore."
> > (It
> > wasn't our wore, it was the gorillas' wore!) He probably even told him
> > what
> > the glyphs meant, the lucky Spaniard! - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I sure wish you guys wouldn't highlight all the images when you respond to a
post. Some of us are still on dialup.

Yeah,
looks more like King 'Pong'.

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] POTA Atari game


> I saw this yesterday.
>
> I wonder if anyone else is sceptical as to whether you can determine
> how these figures can actually be IDENTIFIED as APES!!!!
>
> I think this could be a great CON JOB!!!!
>
> Michael
>
> --- Haristas@... wrote:
> > WOW! Here the PLANET OF THE APES video game we all wanted but
> never got!
> > Look at those graphics!
> >
> > Planet of the Apes Unreleased Prototype by 20th Century Fox for the
> Atari
> > 2600 System.Date on label reads 4/13/83.Game is playable with
> sound.Very cool
> > game with the Apes armed with guns trying to capture you then bring
> you to
> > their village.Make your way through many different levels avoiding
> the Apes
> > and sandpits to escape from the Planet of the Apes!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:48 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] NEW Planet of the Apes Cube-Men

Oh, somebody has to be kidding with this!  What kind of a toy is a cardboard box!  Pathetic!




Click here: eBay item 1766165896 (Ends Sep-15-02 18:51:19 PDT ) - NEW Planet of the Apes Zaius MIB CUSTOM!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Here's a thought. We know that the Apes in the 40th century had
mastered photograghy. It's possible Cornelius and Zira brought some
of their wedding photos in the carpet bags. (If you thought you were
leaving your home forever wouldn't you bring some pictures?) Maybe
some of these picture were published in the LA Times and maybe
Armando kept these clippings to show to Caeser as he got older.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> You're dealing with a paradox anyway, since Cornelius and Zira
change the
> world in a big way by their presence, as does Caesar. Just because
they're
> wearing the chimp clothes doesn't mean he wouldn't draw it for
comparison.
> There's no way the authorities would give their clothes to Lewis
and Stevie.
> I imagine it ended up like the Ark in "Raiders", some government
warehouse
> somewhere (though what happened to the clothes might make an
interesting
> comics story). - - - Jeff

.htmlIn a message dated 9/11/02 12:23:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

Keeping that stuff around would be pretty incriminating. And how would
Caesar know what the gorillas and orangs wore. Why is it so hard to believe
that Armando was curious about their culture and during a discussion with
Cornelius some sketches were drawn. "This is what our gorillas wore." (It
wasn't our wore, it was the gorillas' wore!) He probably even told him what
the glyphs meant, the lucky Spaniard! - - - Jeff

Give it up, Jeff.  The apes wear the costumes they wear in BATTLE because the budget was too low for anything original.  At least the mutants had different clothes.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/11/02 12:39:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, abmac@... writes:

. Someone from the past had to come up with the designs
before the time of Zira and Cornelius or there'd be a paradox.

ABMAC

The patadox is called The Western Costuming Company.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/11/02 4:13:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

I sure wish you guys wouldn't highlight all the images when you respond to a
post.  Some of us are still on dialup.

What does that mean?<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/11/02 6:26:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Here's a thought. We know that the Apes in the 40th century had
mastered photograghy. It's possible Cornelius and Zira brought some
of their wedding photos in the carpet bags. (If you thought you were
leaving your home forever wouldn't you bring some pictures?) Maybe
some of these picture were published in the LA Times and maybe
Armando kept these clippings to show to Caeser as he got older.

As Zaius said in BENEATH, "Now enough of this nonsense!"<.html

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Ken and Heather Taylor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 2:06 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] NEW Planet of the Apes Cube-Men

One that actually COMES in a cardboard box.

I actually think it's kind of cute but I wouldn't buy one.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:48 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] NEW Planet of the Apes Cube-Men

Oh, somebody has to be kidding with this!  What kind of a toy is a cardboard box!  Pathetic!




Click here: eBay item 1766165896 (Ends Sep-15-02 18:51:19 PDT ) - NEW Planet of the Apes Zaius MIB CUSTOM!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Again, how would Caesar know about the gorilla and orang costumes?
Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System


> Here's a thought. We know that the Apes in the 40th century had
> mastered photograghy. It's possible Cornelius and Zira brought some
> of their wedding photos in the carpet bags. (If you thought you were
> leaving your home forever wouldn't you bring some pictures?) Maybe
> some of these picture were published in the LA Times and maybe
> Armando kept these clippings to show to Caeser as he got older.
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > You're dealing with a paradox anyway, since Cornelius and Zira
> change the
> > world in a big way by their presence, as does Caesar. Just because
> they're
> > wearing the chimp clothes doesn't mean he wouldn't draw it for
> comparison.
> > There's no way the authorities would give their clothes to Lewis
> and Stevie.
> > I imagine it ended up like the Ark in "Raiders", some government
> warehouse
> > somewhere (though what happened to the clothes might make an
> interesting
> > comics story). - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:57 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System

In a message dated 9/11/02 12:23:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

Keeping that stuff around would be pretty incriminating. And how would
Caesar know what the gorillas and orangs wore. Why is it so hard to believe
that Armando was curious about their culture and during a discussion with
Cornelius some sketches were drawn. "This is what our gorillas wore." (It
wasn't our wore, it was the gorillas' wore!) He probably even told him what
the glyphs meant, the lucky Spaniard! - - - Jeff

Give it up, Jeff.  The apes wear the costumes they wear in BATTLE because the budget was too low for anything original.  At least the mutants had different clothes.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/11/02 9:19:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  Yeah, and C and Z went back in time because they wrote themselves into a corner. The reason the costumes were the same is because the banks called the shots. Isn't reality fun? What's your point? - - - Jeff

My point is, Jeffery, that I would rather have the inconsistencies of the series remain "mysteries wrapped in enigmas" rather than have some fan explanations that are silly, ridiculous, desperate and sometimes pathetic.  It's pathetic to have to come up with some sort of convoluted nonsense simply because the writing was sloppy on this movie or that TV show episode.  Oh, when there's a "postulation" that's simple and rather plausible, like what the apes' emblems may mean, then fine, or that Taylor's spaceship was named Icarus when we all know it had no name, that's OK, but when you have to get into the Patrick Michael Tilton Zone to try and make sense of something, that goes too far for me.  Please spare me from trips to the PMT Zone!

-- Rory<.html

.htmlI guess Alex can start creaming his pants.


© TV Guide
T3's Kristanna Loken
Movie News
TERMINATOR 3 finished filming
What a way to go…
Dateline: Wednesday, September 11, 2002

By: CHRISTOPHER ALLAN SMITH
By: News Editor
Source: Variety

VARIETY is reporting shooting on the insanely anticipated TERMINATOR 3: RISE OF THE MACHINES has finished shooting.

The final day was Monday, ending five months of Los Angeles based shooting, and shot the scene showing Terminatrix Kristanna Loken's arrival from the future in modern day LA.

"It was the arrival of the female Terminator, and as you know, they arrive naked," director Jonathan Mostow told the paper. "Because there are so many tourists, the challenge was to shoot that scene with Kristanna Loken without attracting too many lookyloos."

Yes. They can buy a ticked like the rest of us.







<.html

.html

Well, I plan to see it anyway.  Hopefully the Jerry Goldsmith music will be good.


© Paramount Pictures
STAR TREK: NEMESIS teaser poster
Movie News
NEW YORK TIMES tees off on STAR TREK: NEMESIS
Series is "Poverty of narrative invention"
Dateline: Wednesday, September 11, 2002

By: CHRISTOPHER ALLAN SMITH
By: News Editor
Source: New York Times, via TrekWeb

While STAR TREK: NEMESIS has been getting a lot of good buzz in recent months from those who have seen early versions and read the script, the film has now received its first bit of negative word.

Writing in the NEW YORK TIMES Stuart Klawans has teed off on the film, and the STAR TREK franchise in general. And for many fans, his words ring a little too true.

"Once again, the history of the future repeats itself," Klawans wrote in Sundays NYT. "Go back in the series from the 24th century to the 23rd, substitute Klingons for Romulans and James T. Kirk for Jean-Luc Picard, and you will discern the outlines of STAR TREK VI: THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY [in NEMESIS]. This duplication is not simply a matter of one generation following another onto the bridge of the Enterprise. As true fans can tell you, NEMESIS will seem new and yet vaguely familiar: the 10th film in a series that has five plots."

He also shot off these points about the creative… malaise maybe?… the film series has been in from time to time:

"A megalomaniac tries to seize the power of life itself (STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN; STAR TREK V: THE FINAL FRONTIER; STAR TREK VII: GENERATIONS; STAR TREK IX: INSURRECTION).

"A senior officer of the Enterprise comes back from the dead (STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK; STAR TREK VII: GENERATIONS), or a fate worse than death (STAR TREK VIII: FIRST CONTACT).

"The crew of the Enterprise goes back to an earlier century on Earth, to make sure that history happens as it should (STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME; STAR TREK VIII: FIRST CONTACT).

"A spacecraft threatens to destroy Earth, and we're to blame, either because our technology is more advanced than our ethics (STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE) or because we've trashed other species (STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME)."

Wrapping up, Klawnas said, "Poverty of narrative invention has nothing to do with predicting the success or failure of any STAR TREK film. THE WRATH OF KHAN has more incident than the others put together and is by common consent the best of the lot. But THE VOYAGE HOME also ranks high, despite a story that can be fully retold in the listing in TV Guide. Like the original television series, which put expansive ideals into rudimentary settings, THE VOYAGE HOME charmed audiences by blending self-aware goofiness with outer-space liberalism"

Ouch. <.html

Maybe they had some gorillas and orangatans as wedding guests.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Again, how would Caesar know about the gorilla and orang costumes?
> Etc. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System
>
>
> > Here's a thought. We know that the Apes in the 40th century had
> > mastered photograghy. It's possible Cornelius and Zira brought
some
> > of their wedding photos in the carpet bags. (If you thought you
were
> > leaving your home forever wouldn't you bring some pictures?) Maybe
> > some of these picture were published in the LA Times and maybe
> > Armando kept these clippings to show to Caeser as he got older.
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > > You're dealing with a paradox anyway, since Cornelius and Zira
> > change the
> > > world in a big way by their presence, as does Caesar. Just
because
> > they're
> > > wearing the chimp clothes doesn't mean he wouldn't draw it for
> > comparison.
> > > There's no way the authorities would give their clothes to Lewis
> > and Stevie.
> > > I imagine it ended up like the Ark in "Raiders", some government
> > warehouse
> > > somewhere (though what happened to the clothes might make an
> > interesting
> > > comics story). - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

Since the Lawgiver statune in PLANET and BENEATH is wearing the same style suit
as Dr. Zaius we KNOW that the design of the suit is at least 1200 years old.
And a fashion design that is 1200 years old could easily be 2000 years old. I
think the simplest explanation for the apes wearing the same suits in BATTLE as
the first two movies is that the same ape or apes (or human!) who came up with
the design in the first timeline did so in the altered time. Even in an
altered timeline we would expect that some things would still remain the same.

>
> Not nessesarily. In more primative societies fashions tend to remain
> static. The uniform of the roman army stayed virtually the same for
> over 1,000 years. The same is true of the fashions of the Egyptians
> over an even longer time frame. While there were many variations
> through the centuries, the same basic designs remained.
>

Do you have a pic of Aldo (or any BATTLE ape) wearing glyphs?

> Ursus had them on his hat and collar (the same as Aldo in Battle).
>
> --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Good point - but what about the gorillas?
> >
> > The general has none, but Marcus has one. Maybe glyphs are
> civilian
> > only....or by Beneath they were overlooked (as difficult as that
> may
> > be to believe....).
> >

> In a message dated 9/10/2002 8:33:04 AM Central Standard Time,
> melkor@... writes:
>
> > Well I haven't seen this as an official explanation anywhere (you're probably
> > not going to get one) but what I have always assumed is that each glyph
> > represents a mark of achievement or status. The more glyphs an ape wears on
> > his suit the higher his status. Dr. Zaius has many, Cornelius and Zira
> > have a
> > few and Julius (I think) has one. Lucius doesn't have any.
> >
> > -Tom
>
> I'd agree with this idea of your's. I'm also of the opinion that they
> symbolize "status." (The only thing that I can think of that'd throw this off
> course is the child gorilla (at the funeral) in Planet. He, being so young,
> wouldn't have status, but he does have the symbols, maybe he's related to a
> very high up gorilla (perhaps that was his father or grandfather in that
> casket? If so, perhaps he'd have status just from being related to such an
> honored ape. But, enough about that...)

Good point about the gorilla kid having a glyph. I think the glyphs could have
signified achievements more than status, sort of like patches on a boy scout
suit. Maybe he's a bright kid and got his glyph for memorizing some of the
sacred scrolls or something.

>
>
> > Keeping that stuff around would be pretty incriminating. And how would
> > Caesar know what the gorillas and orangs wore. Why is it so hard to believe
> > that Armando was curious about their culture and during a discussion with
> > Cornelius some sketches were drawn. "This is what our gorillas wore." (It
> > wasn't our wore, it was the gorillas' wore!) He probably even told him what
> > the glyphs meant, the lucky Spaniard! - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> >
>
> Give it up, Jeff. The apes wear the costumes they wear in BATTLE because the
> budget was too low for anything original.

Yes it was the budget but also the fact that the suits are cool and people
wanted to see them again. I liked that they used the same suits. Since the
Lawgiver statue in PLANET had the same suit as Dr. Zaius we know the suit
design is very old and so using the same designs in BATTLE is plausible. What
is less plausible than keeping the same fashions is that the apes in PLANET and
BENEATH still use the same dialect of English after 2000 years. It would
have been easier for the suits to remain the same than the language.

> At least the mutants had different
> clothes.

Not entirely. The very first time a mutant is seen in BATTLE he is wearing the
same style of hat (but a different color?) as the BENEATH mutants, which I
think is also cool. I think the reason for that was to provide an immediate
clue that they were the same people as the BENEATH mutants.

.htmlLast night, I mentioned that in an old issue of Marvel's Planet of the Apes magazine (Issue # 13, August 1975 cover date) there was an interview with Bill Blake and Paula Christ in which they were asked about the apes "glyphics." I have typed out the part of the interview in which it's discussed... Here it is:

Whitmore: I know you have the originals, so I'll put the question to you that's been in my mind since the first film: do those scroll plates mean anything?

Crist: 20th never did define the reason for the plates, so we did some research and made up our own logical reasons.*First off you will notice the gentleman's costume has the large armband, two thinner bands, and another large band at the bottom of the sleeve, where the scroll plate is. In the movie, little Lucius, Lou Wagner, didn't havethe heavy upper strip or a scroll plate. So what I've assumed from watching the films and then seeing the costume layouts is that a young chimp reaching maturity-just like a Jewish boy who goes thru the Bar Mitzvah ceremony to become a man in his world-receives a top bar and scroll plate. This is the explanation we give on stage.

Whitmore: Were you able to go to 20th to see if they ever had anything in mind about this?

Crist: Unfortunately, a lot of the history is lost. Every department at 20th is a seperate entity, so getting the coordinated is pretty hard. And they're busy on new productions, etc. The man who designed the costumes, Morton Hack, would be the one who would know. But I don't know where to find him.

Blake: He's in Italy right now.

Crist: Short of getting hold of him, you see, we've done the best we could. There are  other things we've deduced. On the front part of the costumes in the first movie, only Zira and Cornelius have the scroll plate with the tiny half-moon heiroglyphic above it. No one else had it in the film except Markus (sic), the head of the gorillas, who had it on his ammuntion sash...but his markings were different. The designs you see on these costumes were unique to the chimpanzees. "Glyphics," the studio wants to call them. Similar glyphics in a different form were on the orangutan costumes. It's like taking any word and switching the letters around; it becomes a foreign language. But getting back to the chimpanzees. Right now that cresent glyphic is unique to Drs. Zira, Cornelius, and Milo. The logical deduction is that it is the symbol for DOCTOR. The plate on the chest by itself simply meant they were scientists.

Whitmore: That would seem to make sense....

While what she says does make sense in a way, I still can't agree with all of it. For example, where she states once "maturity" is reached by the chimps, then they get the "glyphics". If that's true that young apes get them upon "maturity, does that then mean that young gorillas get them earlier on in their lifes (remember the child gorilla, who is younger than Lucius has them...) Something to think about...

And as far as what she says that the symbol on the chimpanzees chest meaning "scientist," I can't agree with that for the simple reason that some of the chimp prefects on the tv show have that symbol on their chest, and if I remember correctly, so does the court room scene chimp in Planet... Maybe that symbol is something to do with chimps, but who knows....<.html