Next time she's over I'll take some snapshots for you;-)

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> There's gotta be nude Lisa Marie someplace, somewhere in the
universe.

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 3:08 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] (OT)Bloody Apes!

This comes out on DVD next week.  Anybody ever see it.  I would imagine it's rather bad, very bad.

           

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

A private memorial service was held for the family over the weekend. There
will be a public service held at the Cherry Lane Theater on October the 14th.
I'll pass on any available info on sending flowers and charitable donations
ASAP.




T

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if you're going to post a nude next time make it
Linda Harrison. Or maybe Lisa Marie. LOL

I wonder if there are any?  THere seem to be plenty of Helena.

<.html

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Hey I never tried to kill Rory. I mailed him that anthrax as a joke;-)

Yeah, I hear that Al Qaida, the meanest one of the Qaida Brothers, is busy working on an E-Mail form.

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Hard to say if that's ALL Roddy or not, you can do anything with photos these days. The bottom part of the photo looks more like  his friend Flicka!

Not as impressive a sMeg Dowall's reputation, I doubt it's for real.  And you could superimpose photos back then without a computer.  And the head and body don't quite seem to match up.  It's probably a hoax.  It reminds me of the Oswald photo.

<.html

James,

I don't believe your wife would kick out our li'l Val.

See, I told you New Yorkers are a rude bunch.

Michael

--- "Kassidy Rae" <valwp@...> wrote:

> Yeah, he did some nose spray commercials, I think, and he did that

ET

> anniversary special. Also lots of books on tape. He's got a cd
> coming out now.
>
> James I have no defense. It was earlier in the year, and you and
> Rory were busy trying to kill each other. I was very afraid.
>
> Okay so I wasn't. Well then... I came by and your wife kicked me

out?

>
>
> In pota@y..., "Richard Cisak Jr." <rcisak@o...> wrote:
> > It seem like everytime I hear a commercial, I say, "That voice is
> the Planet of the Apes guy!"
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Kassidy Rae
> > To: pota@y...
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:17 AM
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] New York
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I went to New York this year and everybody was very very nice.
> Have to say I was surprised. I met James Naughton and his wife,

too.

> Had lots of fun for such a short stay
> >
> > Kassidy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> ----------

Wasn't blood sucking freaks the one where they try to suck people's
brains out with a straw?

Michael

--- "Ken and Heather Taylor" <ktaylor@...> wrote:

> I actually DID see this at the movies in the early '80's ( as a

double w/ B

> lood Sucking Freaks I think?). Needless to say it's APE-alling.
> Avoid like the plague..or MIB2
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haristas@...
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 3:08 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] (OT)Bloody Apes!
>
>
> This comes out on DVD next week. Anybody ever see it. I would

imagine i

> t's rather bad, very bad.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>
>

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Ken and Heather Taylor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 4:21 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] (OT)Bloody Apes!

I actually DID see this at the movies in the early '80's ( as a double w/ Blood Sucking Freaks I think?). Needless to say it's APE-alling.

Avoid like the plague..or MIB2

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 3:08 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] (OT)Bloody Apes!

This comes out on DVD next week.  Anybody ever see it.  I would imagine it's rather bad, very bad.

           

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Attachments :

.htmlI looked up NIGHT OF THE BLOODY APES on IMDb.com.  It turns out to be a Mexican horror film from the same year as POTA, 1968.   Then I read some of the comments and they were so funny that I've copied them below.  Enjoy!

IMDb user comments for
Horripilante bestia humana, La

(1968)

Jimmy Green (stupid_fresh@...)

Ipswich, UK

Date: 11 September 2002
Summary: Prepare the gorilla.

(Contains spoilers)

Night Of The Bloody Apes is a very special film. Special in a way that a mother could love. I can't really express my feelings for this film - I feel protective about it, as if watching over a child who is unable to look after itself. Excuse me for being inconsistent, therefore, in my appraisal of the film (below). Sometimes I feel paternal, others nauseous, when I think about what I have seen.

The film is a very cheap Mexican 'horror' with real life heart transplant footage edited into it during the operation scenes. This is pretty grim. Although, they can't possibly have done this operation for the film itself, so I don't really consider that to be too tasteless. And really, the rest of most of the film is so comic book and likeable, dammit, that you can forgive the rather shoddy idea of using said footage as a main point of sale. Far more interesting are the scenes where a woman wrestles another woman in what initially seems to be a pointless subplot. Have faith viewers, it is NOT a pointless subplot, but a cunning and subtle plot development. Even when the film appears to be going nowhere it IS. God bless writer/director Rene Cardona. I love the actress who plays the wrestler, too - especially when she looks straight into the camera and smiles to us, her loyal viewers.

The other section of the plot sees a man has leukaemia and his (doctor) father transplanting a gorilla heart into him. Well, the gorilla could be a man in a gorilla suit from the way he moves about in the cage prior to his tranquilisation. And hang on, how can the doctor shoot the gorilla through the wire mesh that fences him in? Anyway, the son then turns into a gorilla. Actually, he wears a gorilla mask and then terrorises the neighbourhood. Periodically, as he keeps fading (literally) between 'man state' and 'gorilla state'.

There are many, many amusing lines in the dubbed version. My personal favourites are "Prepare the gorilla" (before the first operation) and "I prepared for everything, but I didn't prepare for this" (after the doctor's son dons the simian mask and begins his terrifying rampage).

People say that really bad films are funny to watch _because_ they are so bad. I have only found this to be the case with one film before now, and that was Death Wish 3, but now Night Of The Bloody Apes has become one of my pet films. A desert island treasure.

For entertainment value, this gets 10/10. Recently I have been unable to watch films all the way through, due to my deteriorating attention span, but this kept my attention for its duration, even to the extent that I couldn't look away from the TV. Take my advice and watch this masterpiece.

   
Paul Andrews (poolandrews@...)

England
Date: 21 August 2002
Summary: silly and stupid but also fun and entertaining

I like this movie, I dont really know why, but I do. I suppose it adds up to more than the sum of its parts. And it has some pretty terrible parts. A local doctors son is dying, so he transplants the heart of a gorilla into him, featuring real heart surgery footage. Unfortunately this periodically transforms him into a half man, half monsterous ape creature. This creature then goes out and starts killing and attacking the locals, as the movie goes on we follow the police detective in charge of capturing the beast. Terrible special effects including a gouged out eye and a scalping, awful dubbing, poor dialogue and just generally badly made. But I still like it, it moves at a fair pace, its never boring and it entertained me for an hour and a half which is just about the most you could ask for. Hard to recommend but I will anyway, give it a go if you can find a copy.

   
Linda Cooper (lindacooper61)
Harlow, Essex, England
Date: 20 August 2002
Summary: So bad it's almost good

I saw this film in the eighties, but thoughts of it have remained with me. Ooh boy, have they!!

Yes, as others have said, it _is_ an abysmally made film. But wait... there is gold dust hidden amongst the dross, for those who like cheesy movies.

I have no doubt that this was intended as a seriously frightening horror film, but there are elements _so_ badly made that they become surreally funny (such as the bendy rubber knife blade, and one really funny death scene.)

People as a species tend to find a lot of humour in tragedy (as a way of coping, it's better than breaking down), and I think that's why horror - unless it's handled really well - can find itself becoming farcical all too easily.

I do not recommend this film as _good_... but it will appeal to those who like a lot of cheese with their screams.

   
gridoon

Date: 9 February 2002
Summary: Terrible but fun.

I simply can't believe that "Night Of The Bloody Apes" was included in the notorious "Video Nasties" list. If you ever see it, you'll probably agree. This film is too stupid to be offensive. Oh, there is a lot of gore, to be sure, but most of the bloody sequences are so badly edited and inserted into the picture that either you don't even get a clear idea of what's going on (the heart transplant sequence, allegedly including real shots) or you simply laugh at the lame effects (the eye gouging). Terrible but fun picture, if you're in the right mood. (**)

P.S. There is also some brief but entertaining female wrestling footage.

   
dmuel
Downtown, Michigan
Date: 10 August 2001
Summary: Check it out!!!

I must disagree with other critics here. This is a marvelous Mexican exploitation movie. One problem with the translated title, however, is that there is only one ape in the movie, not two, and he dies early on after having his heart transplanted to a human. Thereafter, a man-ape assumes the role of movie-monster, so he's not fully a gorilla. Apes?? Anyway, much of the movie was made to titilate Mexican male viewers in the era of the movie's release, 1972. The ape-man has a penchant for chasing voluptuous Mexican ladies and tearing their blouse and bra off. For some reason he also likes to rip the heads off of human males. Surely this is the consequence of his animal heart! The movie also features the obligatory masked wrestling women, the heroine in this instance having almost no connection with the ape-man or his evil scientist creator, but the dialogue makes for extremely bad/funny sequences. There is much red paint splattered about and some obviously phony gore scenes. A great and good laugh for the twisted soul such as myself.

   
B.M.
US
Date: 7 April 2000
Summary: yawn - kind of boring yet also very funny

Night of the Bloody Apes has to be one of the most trashiest movies I've ever seen. It's Mexican horror at it's best/worst depending on how you look at it. You've got unintentionally funny dialogue, wrestling women, real open heart surgery, a man in an ape mask, and a bit of scalp ripping, eyeball gouging. It's kind of tame in terms of graphic violence nowadays, but I can't imagine what it was like back on it's first release.

The "plot" or lack thereof goes as this--

A young man is dying of a severe illness, so his dad (who is a physician), decides to transplant an ape's heart into him, in an incredibly gory scene where real heart transplant footage is shown.

After the operation things seem to be going well until the small side effects show up. The result is a maniacal monster ( a man in a cheap Halloween ape mask) with an insatiable lust for blood.

Sounds like a winner, huh? I thought so. It's quite funny at times although not on purpose.

Only recommended if you're looking for a trashy, outdated, funny, low-budget, gory grade Z movie. YES!

   
900

Date: 28 June 1999
Summary: ZzZzZzZzZZZZZzZZ

Z ærh, well this was boring. it was so boring but have some cool gore effects, like heart surgery (i've heard it was a real sequence) and eye rippings, not a shocker. if you want to see a movie more shocking than this see "South park"

   
Matthew Collier
Gwent, Wales
Date: 21 May 1999
Summary: Very Poor

I recently saw this film on a video nasties list and picked it up in a car boot sale for a fiver (which was a rip off.) The film centres around a doctor who's son is dying and even though he's a doctor the only cure he can think of is....to kidnap a gorilla and transplant it's heart into his son.

The film is very poorly made even for the sixties and the special effects are laughable, when the boy transforms into an ape they just put an ape mask on him and make him run around climbing buildings.

The only thing worth noting is the footage of actual open heart surgery (Which is cut out in the British version, anyway.)

   
<.html

Attachments :

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Richard's Gold Box

DVD Used DVDs VHS DVD & VHS Movie Showtimes All Products   Explore This DVD     buying info     technical information     editorial reviews I dislike it I love it! 1 2 3 4 5 I own it Edit your ratings Favorite Magazines! Subscribe to entertainment magazines today. 3-Day Cruises from only $299. Visit the Books Store The Ghastly One by Jimmy McDonough Get our lowest prices of the season on Viking's 128 MB CompactFlash and 128 MB SmartMedia cards.

Ship to: Richard Cisak Jr.Brooklyn- NYJeanne Scanlon & Rosalie TricaRichard Cisa- [2]----OR----Add an address Add gift-wrap/note - or - Don't have one? We'll set one up for you. Night of the Bloody Apes / Feast of Flesh (1972) see larger picture List Price: $24.99 Our Price: $18.74 You Save: $6.25 (25%) Availability: This item will be released on September 24, 2002. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. Edition:   Eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25. See details. See more product details Be the first person to review this DVD! Customers who bought this DVD also bought: Blood Freak DVD Dracula the Dirty Old Man / Guess What Happened to Count Dracula DVD Asylum of Satan/Satan's Children DVD Curse of the Devil DVD The Mad Doctor of Blood Island DVD Explore similar items Product Details Director: René Cardona Encoding: Region 1 (US and Canada only) Format: Black & White, Color Rated: Not for sale to persons under age 18. Studio: Image Entertainment DVD Features: 3 Minutes of Gory Outtakes from "Night of the Bloody Apes" Theatrical trailers and TV spots for "Night of the Bloody Apes" and "Feast of Flesh," Plus Bonus Schlock-Around-the-Clock Trailers for "Face of the Screaming Werewolf," "The Flesh Eaters," "Flesh Feast," "Invasion of the Flesh Hunters," "Blood Spattered Bride/I Dismember Mama," "Shiver Shudder Show," "Tender Flesh," "Werewolf in a Girl's Dormitory/Corridors of Blood" and more A Gorilla goes gaga for a Stripper in the Burlesque Novelty Short Subject "Gorilla and the Maiden" Rita Martinez, "Champion of Mexico," takes on Clara Mortensen in the Wrestling She-Babe Short Subject "The World's Champtionship Women's Wrestling Contest" Girls meet the Apeman in the 1920's Nickelodeon Nudie Short Subject "Artists' Paradise" Two Apes battle for B-Movie Supremacy in the Hairy Short Subject "White Gorilla" Ghastly Gallery of Ghoulish Comic Cover Art with Horror Audio Rarities Full-screen and widescreen anamorphic formats ASIN: B00006FMC2 Amazon.com Sales Rank (DVD): 3,173 Click here for more technical details about this edition... What's Your Advice? Is there an item you'd recommend instead of or in addition to this one? Let the world know! Enter the item's ASIN (what's an ASIN?) in the box below, select advice type, then click Submit. I recommend: in addition to this product instead of this product Editorial Reviews Description Night of the Bloody Apes (1972, 84 min.) - It's a sex-crazed monkey man looking for love! Informed that son Julio will die of heart disease, Dr. Krellman does what any good mad doctor would do: give Julio the heart of a gorilla. Oops. Somehow the frail young man turns into a "horrible half beast, half man" with a muscleman's body and a monkey's face (sort of), embarking on a hilarious frenzy of over-the-top gore and gratuitous nudity as he attacks women and mutilates men. Daddy then surgically swaps Julio's simian heart with one taken from, yes, a female wrestler. Double oops. With eye-popping footage of an open-heart surgery and periodic wallowing in women's wrestling, "Night of the Bloody Apes" is a cockamamie cult fave so berserk it's brilliant. "Feast of Flesh" (1967, 70 min.) - A crackpot sadist with a monster mask and claws stabs people with syringes and transforms women into zonked-out love slaves, making the swingers of a South American beach resort into his very own Feast of Flesh. Also known as "The Deadly Organ," it's more twisted madness from the director of "The Curious Dr. Humpp!" Listmania! THE WEREWOLF SERIES: A list by Jim Childs, Private Dick Girdler-rama: A list by girdlergirl, William Girdler.com Webmaster THE DEMON SERIES: A list by Jim Childs, Private Dick Browse for DVD in: DVD > href="/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/404276/ref=br_dp_/102-8063431-9093740">Genres > href="/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/163396/ref=br_dp_/102-8063431-9093740">Horror > href="/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/163407/ref=br_dp_/102-8063431-9093740">General

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<.html

It's her own fault. She showed up wearing a leather mini and an ape
mask.

--- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> James,
>
> I don't believe your wife would kick out our li'l Val.
>
> See, I told you New Yorkers are a rude bunch.
>
> Michael
>

.htmlI finally got the CD today and the paperwork inside says it was shipped back on August 18th.  I think this is the original order that's finally showed up.  That means I might be getting another one.  If so I'll mail it to you.

As the article in FSM.com says one of the "Repel Boarders" cue is in mono because the original stereo masters have not survived and they couldn't get permission to use the track from the LP.  Good thing I bought a Tsunami bootleg CD of the LP years ago, so I can hear it in stereo, though the range isn't as good as the new CD.

OK, I've bought a CD of THE SAND PEBBLES three times, and the movie on video once on cassette, once on laserdisc, and once on DVD, plus I paid $100 a few years ago for an original 1-sheet poster.  That's enough of THE SAND PEBBLES for me.  And I love the film simply because my dad took me to see it when I was nine.  Now I sit in my apartment and listen to the music and watch the movie by myself because of that nostalgia.  Kind of sad a little.
<.html

.htmlDamn it!  I hate when I send e-mail to the group that's meant to be private!<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 9:48 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] SAND PEBBLES

I finally got the CD today and the paperwork inside says it was shipped back on August 18th.  I think this is the original order that's finally showed up.  That means I might be getting another one.  If so I'll mail it to you.

As the article in FSM.com says one of the "Repel Boarders" cue is in mono because the original stereo masters have not survived and they couldn't get permission to use the track from the LP.  Good thing I bought a Tsunami bootleg CD of the LP years ago, so I can hear it in stereo, though the range isn't as good as the new CD.

OK, I've bought a CD of THE SAND PEBBLES three times, and the movie on video once on cassette, once on laserdisc, and once on DVD, plus I paid $100 a few years ago for an original 1-sheet poster.  That's enough of THE SAND PEBBLES for me.  And I love the film simply because my dad took me to see it when I was nine.  Now I sit in my apartment and listen to the music and watch the movie by myself because of that nostalgia.  Kind of sad a little.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

YOU IDIOT!!

I never do that...

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> Damn it! I hate when I send e-mail to the group that's meant to be

private!

>

Attachments :

.htmlWell, I haven't found Lisa Marie yet, but I did find Lisa Marie Scott.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/17/02 10:09:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

YOU IDIOT!!

I never do that...

Michael

I know, I know.  It could be very embarrassing.<.html

Attachments :

.html
GoodGood God, here's another Lisa Marie.  This one's in England!
         Well, back to the cornfield as I hunt for more Lisa Maries.
                    <.html

Attachments :

.htmlThis is a LisaMarie Baratta.  She's a singer and has her own website.

<.html

Attachments :

.htmlOK, well here's the Lisa Marie (Smith) from POTA'01.  Not exactly nude shots, but I'm still "hunting."

<.html

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:12 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Lisa Marie. There's more than one.

Well, I haven't found Lisa Marie yet, but I did find Lisa Marie Scott.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 10:23 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Another one.

This is a LisaMarie Baratta.  She's a singer and has her own website.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Attachments :

.htmlOK, that's it for me guys.  I've been spammed on twice, had to re-boot once, but I got what you wanted -- a nude of Lisa Marie.  This was a photograph taken by Robert Mapplethorpe.  Well, "You got what you wanted, Tiger.  How does it taste?"

MAPPLETHORPE / LISA MARIE
<.html

Naughton has been the voice for Jeep for I don't know how long. He does
Nasalcrom, I remember in the '90's he did a salad dressing commercial. Oh,
he does a home improvement store ad, can't think of the name. He's the
Charlton Heston of the Tv show as a voice of authority. Yet his Tony-winning
role in "Chicago" went to Richard Gere in the upcoming movie. Can't win 'em
all. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kassidy Rae" <valwp@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] New York


> Yeah, he did some nose spray commercials, I think, and he did that ET
> anniversary special. Also lots of books on tape. He's got a cd
> coming out now.
>
> James I have no defense. It was earlier in the year, and you and
> Rory were busy trying to kill each other. I was very afraid.
>
> Okay so I wasn't. Well then... I came by and your wife kicked me out?
>
>
> In pota@y..., "Richard Cisak Jr." <rcisak@o...> wrote:
> > It seem like everytime I hear a commercial, I say, "That voice is
> the Planet of the Apes guy!"
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Kassidy Rae
> > To: pota@y...
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:17 AM
> > Subject: [Planet of the Apes] New York
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I went to New York this year and everybody was very very nice.
> Have to say I was surprised. I met James Naughton and his wife, too.
> Had lots of fun for such a short stay
> >
> > Kassidy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------

Don't be so hard on yourself, Mr. Zanuck. I know a lot of "Ape" fans and
they LOVED the new "Planet of the Apes". Believe me, the negative stuff you
heard is in the minority. We understood what Mr. Burton was trying to do.
Don't worry, you'll have my story outline in 2 weeks for "Apes 2". I'm
planning lots of jokes. The fans loved Mr. Burton's humor. Say hi to your
wife and those charming sons of yours. You must be SO proud of them.

Best,
Jeff Krueger

Damn! Did I just send that to the group?!! I hate when that happens.Damn,
now what - -

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Oooops!


> YOU IDIOT!!
>
> I never do that...
>
> Michael
>
> --- Haristas@... wrote:
> > Damn it! I hate when I send e-mail to the group that's meant to be
> private!
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well, how can you tell it is her?

Are those real? If so, they are very impressive seeing as she is
fully stretched out and they tend to shrink under such pressures....

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> OK, that's it for me guys. I've been spammed on twice, had to re-

boot once,

> but I got what you wanted -- a nude of Lisa Marie. This was a

photograph

> taken by Robert Mapplethorpe. Well, "You got what you wanted,

Tiger. How

> does it taste?"
>
> MAPPLETHORPE / LISA MARIE
> [Unable to display image]
>

So I get my little digest in the mail, and it's all about naked
people! What is this, Pornography of the Apes? For a minute I
thought I was on the wrong group!

James I did not wear a mini-skirt. The mask, I admit to. Your wife
is lying.

They are being mean to me Michael.

Before you guys go overboard (too late!) I have to admit I looked at
the naked pictures. The one of Roddy does look somewhat equestrian.
And who the hell is that inflatable woman? Rory, you need to lie
down and get some sleep, the strain is telling.

My husband says you guys are insane. The only reason I married him
is because he owns all the POTA dvds.

Kassidy/Valerie/whoever

.html

I went to New York this year and everybody was very very nice.  Have to say I was surprised. I met James Naughton and his wife, too.  Had lots of fun for such a short stay

Kassidy

<.html

Now I'm really insulted!!!!

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> New Yorkers are the cuddliest people in the world.
>

Kassidy,

When you met James Naughton, I assume you asked him about POTA. If so, how did he respond. Others (Jeff) have stated in the past that he doesn't look back fondly on his time with the series.

Matt

Rory <Haristas@...> wrote:

> Damn it! I hate when I send e-mail to the group that's meant to be

private!

Too late to take it back now, we all know you bought a bootleg CD and
hence we've all lost any respect we still had for you.

Shame on you, bootlegger.

Alan

"james611102" <JamesA1102@...>

> Hey Alan. If you want maybe one of us here in the US can pick them
> up and ship them to you when they are released.

It's a kind thought, thanks, but the costs involved would probably end
up bumping it up anyway - I will keep an eye out in all the usual
places just in case.

Alan

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/8/02 9:45:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > Yes, I have read Huxley's "Ape and Essence"; in fact, I mentioned

it

> > in one of my posts several months back. I mentioned then that I
> > considered "Ape and Essence" to be as much of a source work for
> > Schaffner's film of PLANET as was Boulle's original novel, given

the

> > "post-nuclear war" theme which Serling added to the mix. PLANET

(the

> > movie) owes much to Boulle's novel, but thematically owes even

more to

> > Huxley, I think. Since you brought up "Ape and Essence", what do

YOU

> > think, Rory? Does PLANET owe as much to Huxley as it does to

Boulle?

> >
> > Patrick
>
> I actually have never read APE AND ESSENCE. How is it? What's

its plot?

> Have you got a copy you could lend me?
>
> -- Rory

*** If you didn't like BLADE-RUNNER or THE MATRIX, then chances are
you wouldn't dig APE AND ESSENCE; it doesn't exactly have a
straightforward narrative plot to it. On one level, it's about a
scientific mission from the survivors of nuclear war (on New Zealand)
to the radiation-infected California survivors. Those Californians
have taken to Satan-worship (if I recall correctly), and during a
festival every year they kill off all the deformed babies born that
year. They also dig up the bodies in graveyards in order to steal the
corpses' clothing (etc.), for which the Dead have no real need. Very
bizarre... but not quite so bizarre as the "chorus"-like scenes
involving Apes, who make symbolic whipping-boys out of Einstein
(etc.), for opening up the nuclear Pandora's box in the first place.
And all of this is bracketed by a "framework" in which it's all a
screenplay written by some wacko in California--the manuscript in
question is barely saved from the Studio's furnaces by two guys who
happen to stumble across it after it fell off a truck (I think)
carting it to the furnace. They try to track down the screenwriter,
and eventually the text of his would-be movie becomes this bizarre
book.
I bought my copy in a Barnes & Noble (actually, I copied down the
ISBN number and ordered it through Media Play--where I, as an
employee, get it for a discount); so, it's available to purchase. If
you don't want to shell out money first, try checking out a copy from
your nearest library: it's by Huxley, so it SHOULD be on stock, right
next to BRAVE NEW WORLD.
As bizarre as it is, APE AND ESSENCE not only has talking apes in it,
but it also--and primarily--deals with the potential consequences of
all-out nuclear war, which is why I think that Serling (etc.) made
the 1968 POTA flick not merely an adaptation of Boulle's novel (which
had nothing to do with Nuclear War), but a THEMATIC adaptation of
Huxley's book.

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 9-18-2002

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:

>
> > Of course, by then Zed the Exterminator will be ready to kill me

for the

> > sake of Zardoz...!
>
> You'll have died not for Zardoz's sake, but for ours . . . So we

won't have

> to read anymore long winded posts!

*** If I indeed die for your sake, will you be so kind as to start up
a new religion honoring that death? After all, if a bunch of
fishermen could start up a religion around their cryptic pal Jesus,
claiming that He died for the sake of humanity, then why not me?

Patrick

P.S. Just kidding... I detest all unprovable belief systems (such as
the "revealed religions" of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.), and
would NOT be happy if a bunch of fools were to make ME into a
posthumous messiah. If Jesus did actually exist, and if he could be
resurrected from death, he'd probably be appalled at how his name has
been used to justify all sorts of bizarre beliefs and harmful
activities (the Crusades, the Witch-hunts, the Inquisition, etc.).

--- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:

>
> It means the apes had learned to read and write Chinese. Obviously

they could read the Latin alphabet as well.

>
> Patrick can explain all this in much greater detail.
>
>
>
> > But what does it MEAN???
> > Are they letters in an alphabet or words?
> >
> > Michael

*** Ahhh, it was only a matter of time before somebody got a dig in
at me!
In regards to the "glyphs" of the Apes, I mentioned some time back (I
can't remember which Message Number it was in) that the glyph on the
Ursus/Urko helmet (and the similar one on their circle-studded
poncho, beneath their chins) in my novel's scenario represents the
constellation Orion. Imagine that poncho lying flat on Urko's bed, or
a table: it's circular, with a hole in the center, through which his
head pokes when he puts it on. That circular "rim" of the poncho will
represent the Celestial Equator, which cuts right across the Belt of
Orion. Throughout history, Orion has been thought of as "the Hunter",
aiming his bow at Taurus (the Bull), with his trusty hunting hounds
in the vicinity (Canis Major & Canis Minor). Gorillas on the Planet
of the Apes seem to be into hunting big-time, so it isn't all that
unreasonable that they might think of Orion as a big hunting gorilla
up in the sky. So, then, they might have concocted that peculiar
glyph as a sort of "totem" or heraldic emblem of the "top gorilla" in
their social hierarchy. The circular studs on that poncho would
represent the stars in the night sky, by my interpretation.
Interestingly, a star in the constellation Orion (320 lightyears
away) is the intended destination of Taylor's voyage...

Mind you, this is all just my own interpretation of this particular
glyph; I'm not suggesting that this is what the costume designers had
in mind when they created it in the first place. I wonder if Morton
Haack is still alive, and if he ever told anybody what (if anything)
these strange symbols REALLY meant (to him, that is).

Patrick

Just saw on CNN Headline News James Gregory died today at the age of
90...that's all they said...anybody know anything more? jeff corey, Kim
hunter, James Gregory...hmmmm

--- In pota@y..., MTotsky@a... wrote:

> Kassidy,
>
> When you met James Naughton, I assume you asked him about POTA. If

so, how did he respond. Others (Jeff) have stated in the past that he
doesn't look back fondly on his time with the series.

>
> Matt

Actually, no. I was rather inebriated (had some killer Marguerita's
at "Gabriella's" -- (you know the place, NYers?) and I was with
another woman who knew him. She introduced us and I joked around
with him a bit is all. I remember trying to teach him how to "talk
southern" and telling him some about my trip. He laughed. He was
really nice to me.

BUT, having said that, I wrote him a letter, all about POTA, after
that. Told him how I loved it. And he wrote me back and was again
very nice but really didn't say much at all beyond it was "a long
time ago".

AND the friend I spoke of who is acquainted with him has spoken to
him about POTA and you are right, according to her. He doesn't seem
to be real thrilled about it, though I think he tries to remain
silent about it for the most part. He said he did the Behind the
POTA for Roddy, otherwise he wouldn't have been interested. And I
think she asked him if he'd be interested in answering some questions
to a group about POTA and he really preferred not to.

Ron Harper doesn't seem to have bad memories of it, except for the
scripts. He liked Roddy and seems to think James was playing a hero
role like himself, when it would have been better for him to be the
anti-hero. Read that somewhere. Also, on my web site he gave me a
little story re: the series which I put on the first page.

It ain't much, but it's all I know.

Kassidy

From E! Online:
REMEMBERED: Character actor James Gregory, whose career in film and
television spanned more than five decades and included a seven-year
stint as loud-mouthed Inspector Frank Lugar on TV's Barney Miller,
died Monday in Sedona, Arizona. He was 90.

--- In pota@y..., apefan23@a... wrote:
> Just saw on CNN Headline News James Gregory died today at the age
of
> 90...that's all they said...anybody know anything more? jeff
corey, Kim
> hunter, James Gregory...hmmmm

Oh then you must of been the one in the bunny outfit and ape mask.

--- In pota@y..., "Kassidy Rae" <valwp@y...> wrote:
> James I did not wear a mini-skirt. The mask, I admit to.

--- In pota@y..., "james611102" <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:

> Come on it's not like I'm defending Patrick!!!
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > James defending Rory? Now I've seen everything! - - - Jeff

*** "Alright... then I'll defend myself," sez I, quoting Taylor as he
wraps his blankie around his "Little Taylor" and his "nice buns".

Yeesh, but I'm gone a week and a half and there's, like, a gazillion
postings to wade through!

In regards to the passing of Kim Hunter... what can I add to what
others here have said? Maurice Evans brought a menacing aspect to
Zaius that wasn't there in the source novel... Buck Kartalian brought
a working-class-stiff humor to Julius that neither Zanam nor Zoram
had... Roddy brought a range of attitude to Cornelius that his Boulle-
novel namesake didn't have... and Kim brought so much to Zira through
her magnificent expressiveness (through so much latex!) that she put
to shame Helena Bonham Carter's portrayal of Ari. Look at the range
of expression Kim brought through: that frustrated look she gives in
the Cave, trying to convince Zaius about Cornelius' artifacts... that
wry expression she has when she says, "We've been in trouble since
the moment we met you" ... the way her eyes light up when she
exclaims, "Hel-LO, Bright Eyes! How's our throat today?" ...
Yes, she won an Oscar for "Streetcar...", but it's her portrayal of
Zira that made her famous. How many other actresses could have done
the job as well? I, for one, wouldn't want to see any other actress
in the role: she nailed it perfectly.
Damn those "unamerican" swine who blacklisted her for "unamerican
activities" (!)--just for acting in a movie! How many other great
film roles might she have been known (and acclaimed) for, had she had
the ability to continue her craft during the McCarthy years? America
is supposed to be a meritocracy--the ability to do the job the best
should be the only criterion. By that standard, Kim should have had a
richer film career than she did have. Thank goodness she was
offered "Planet". RIP, Kim...

Patrick

That's OK Patrick, I don't think anyone here is going to set up a new
religion to worship you post mortem.

I'm surprised that you are not aware of the historical written proof
that a man named Jesus did exist and was tried by Pontius Pilot (ie a
tabloid independent of the Bible), but given your professed opinions
I can't imagine you would waste a lot of time reading on the subject.

If Boulle and Serling and Wilson DID exist, and if they resurrected
from the dead, they would vomit uncontrollably every time you posted
a long winded whacky idea.

Michael

--- "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...> wrote:

> --- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> >
> > > Of course, by then Zed the Exterminator will be ready to kill

me

> for the
> > > sake of Zardoz...!
> >
> > You'll have died not for Zardoz's sake, but for ours . . . So we
> won't have
> > to read anymore long winded posts!
>
> *** If I indeed die for your sake, will you be so kind as to start

up

> a new religion honoring that death? After all, if a bunch of
> fishermen could start up a religion around their cryptic pal Jesus,
> claiming that He died for the sake of humanity, then why not me?
>
> Patrick
>
> P.S. Just kidding... I detest all unprovable belief systems (such

as

> the "revealed religions" of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc.),

and

> would NOT be happy if a bunch of fools were to make ME into a
> posthumous messiah. If Jesus did actually exist, and if he could be
> resurrected from death, he'd probably be appalled at how his name

has

> been used to justify all sorts of bizarre beliefs and harmful
> activities (the Crusades, the Witch-hunts, the Inquisition, etc.).
>
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 12:06 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Oooops!

   Don't be so hard on yourself, Mr. Zanuck. I know a lot of "Ape" fans and
they LOVED the new "Planet of the Apes". Believe me, the negative stuff you
heard is in the minority. We understood what Mr. Burton was trying to do.
Don't worry, you'll have my story outline in 2 weeks for "Apes 2". I'm
planning lots of jokes. The fans loved Mr. Burton's humor. Say hi to your
wife and those charming sons of yours. You must be SO proud of them.

                                    Best,
                                             Jeff Krueger

Damn! Did I just send that to the group?!! I hate when that happens.Damn,
now what - -



----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 7:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Oooops!


> YOU IDIOT!!
>
> I never do that...
>
> Michael
>
> --- Haristas@... wrote:
> > Damn it!  I hate when I send e-mail to the group that's meant to be
> private!
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

jeff corey, Kim Hunter, James Gregory...hmmmm

They say these things happen in threes.

<.html

> I think we need to give Patrick a subject to discuss when he does

arrive. How about this one: Patrick, what physical changes would
you have to make in the modern day great apes for them to have
cognitive thought at our level and the ability to speak human
language?

>
> I find this stuff very interesting. I'm sure Patrick has given it

much thought, but then he did cheat with that Roswell Alien theory.
Come on, Patrick, we made the apes of Boulle's allegory (or satire if
you insist), so how did we genetically manipulate them?

>
> -- Rory

*** "We" didn't... but SOMEBODY else did...

Given that humans and chimps share 98.4% the same DNA genetic
blueprint (I'm not exactly sure how much is shared with gorillas and
orangutans, but it's probably around 97% at least), then it follows
that only 1.6% of human genes (and chimp genes) make us human and
make chimps chimps. In order to physiologically transform modern day
great apes into "simius sapiens" (to borrow Boulle's term), one would
have to genetically engineer that ape genome in such a way that that
1.6% ape-making portion of the genome worked to create an ape with
human-like morphological features (i.e. a larynx & palate capable of
producing human language sounds, and a brain that was more
convoluted/complex--as is the human brain--which comprised a higher
percentage of brain-to-body mass). It wouldn't hurt if the opposable
thumb were to morph in such a way as to be more prominent--as it is
in human hands; and if these "evolved apes" are to function
bipedally, rather than knucklewalking, it wouldn't hurt if their
opposable thumb-toes were to morphologically shrink a bit--and their
bodies would have to morph into a more human-like form, with the
pelvic bones and lower spine changing from what it is to what humans
have.
Since only about 1.6% of ape DNA has to be fiddled with (or, perhaps,
up to 3% for orangutans, which veered off onto a different branch of
the evolutionary tree longer ago than did chimps & gorillas), then
the only way such morphological changes could come into play so damn
soon and suddenly (i.e. by the time CONQUEST takes place in 1991,
when Lisa becomes the first ape--other than Caesar--known to be able
to speak: "N-n-no! N-n--!"), is if SOMEBODY purposely performed a
breeding experiment/program involving TRANSGENICS. Transgenics is
when you intentionally inject (or "splice") genes from one organism
into another, in the earliest stages of cellular development. If the
specific genes coding for human larynx/palate formation (etc.) were
to be spliced into the genetic code of a primitive
chimpanzee/gorilla/orangutan, then MAYBE the beastie born from such a
procedure would innately have the anatomy of an "evolved" ape.

Remember in JURASSIC PARK, when the geneticists use frog DNA to "fill
in the gaps" of dinosaur DNA recovered from amber-trapped insects?
The dinosaurs end up being able to do something that the FROGS
do: "switch" genders (if all the individual animals happen to be the
same gender), growing reproductive organs of the opposite gender, in
order to breed a larger population of dinosaurs on that island than
their not-so-clever scientist-creators thought they had created. THAT
is an example of "transgenics".

Similarly, whatever it is that genetically makes human beings capable
of intelligent speech, that portion of our genome (part of the 1.6%--
but not all) would have to be transgenically infused into apes in the
embryonic stage--which means that all the talking apes we see in
BATTLE (including that old geezer Mandemus) must have been the result
of some such purposeful scientific intervention. Since there's no
evidence that any human beings were around doing these sorts of
experiments around the middle of the 20th Century (Mandemus is
portrayed as "old" circa 2018, when BATTLE takes place), and we've
only recently "cracked" the human genome (that is, we've MAPPED it,
but we've only begun to interpret it), then it follows that ONLY
SOMEBODY ELSE with the scientific know-how COULD have created
the "talking apes" which end up being enslaved and sold to
totalitarian America in the late 1980's-to-early 1990's.
Rory, you think I'm "cheating" with "my" Roswell-Alien theory, but
I'm hard-pressed to think of a more plausible SCIENTIFIC explanation
for how primitive apes could anatomically morph almost overnight
into "evolved" apes. Transgenics, to me, is the best explanation--and
that science is only recently blossoming amongst humans. It seems to
me that those mysterious "Greys" in their UFOs (who are said, by
some, to be conducting "abductions" and "human/alien breeding
experiments"!) which can out-fly our fastest jet fighters, and have
been around at least since World War II (the "foo fighters"), stand a
better chance of being the culprits behind the "uplifting" of the
POTA-universe's primitive apes into their "evolved" state. Why can't
those "Greys" be conducting a "simian/alien breeding program"?

Perhaps those Greys share a similar percentage of human/simian DNA
(that is, those Greys branched off the same evolutionary tree some 10
million years ago--a sort of "protopithecus" which evolved over the
next 10,000,000 years into the big-headed, thin, grey-skinned "Grey"
beings. What might cause their morphology to be what it is (or, what
purported "Abductees" claim it to be)? Our morphology is a result of
the environments to which we adapt and survive. That's why people who
live in the Tropics tend to have darker skin pigmentation from those
who live in Temperate zones (and Polar zones)--we morphologically
adapt to our surroundings. The skinny, big-headed Greys might have
adapted to a specific environment, where it isn't so hard to hold up
a big cranium on a thin neck... an environment where the surface
gravity is less than that on Earth--say, about one-sixth of a gee...
where subsurface conditions prevent the dermis from receiving direct
sunlight, requiring BIG, BLACK EYES in order to see more of the
spectrum than our human eyes can see...
Hmmm... there are those who wonder why it is that we never did
establish a Moon base after the Apollo missions. Maybe, just maybe,
we were told to stay off somebody else's property...

Patrick

P.S. Does my "postulating" get too "wacky"? At least T is kind enough
to say that my "wackiness" is "well-thought-out". Thanks for that,
T... and I'm sorry that the loss of Kim (sad for us all) represented
a somewhat more personal loss for you.

P.P.S. Welcome to the Madhouse, "apefan23" & Rich & whoever else is
new around here. BTW, the Timeline is like the "prize" winner in
HIGHLANDER--there can be only one!

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 7:41:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

jeff corey, Kim Hunter, James Gregory...hmmmm

They say these things happen in threes.



Well, it's happening in fours.  You forgot J Lee.<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: apefan23@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 5:40 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] James Gregory RIP

Just saw on CNN Headline News James Gregory died today at the age of
90...that's all they said...anybody know anything more?  jeff corey, Kim
hunter, James Gregory...hmmmm


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 7:37:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rcisak@... writes:

This is probably gonna sound like blasphemy here, but I kinda liked the new one.  No, it wasn't anywhere near as engrossing as the first one, probably because it took place on a completely different planet.  I've read the Pierre Boulle book, and I don't know why Burton went with that story.  The Boulle book is one of those cases where the movie is better than the book, in my opinion.

Anymore statements like that and you'll hang for high treason!<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: patrickmichaeltilton

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:24 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Ape Writing System

--- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
>
> It means the apes had learned to read and write Chinese.  Obviously
they could read the Latin alphabet as well. 
>
> Patrick can explain all this in much greater detail.
>
>
>
> > But what does it MEAN???
> > Are they letters in an alphabet or words?
> >
> > Michael

*** Ahhh, it was only a matter of time before somebody got a dig in
at me!
In regards to the "glyphs" of the Apes, I mentioned some time back (I
can't remember which Message Number it was in) that the glyph on the
Ursus/Urko helmet (and the similar one on their circle-studded
poncho, beneath their chins) in my novel's scenario represents the
constellation Orion. Imagine that poncho lying flat on Urko's bed, or
a table: it's circular, with a hole in the center, through which his
head pokes when he puts it on. That circular "rim" of the poncho will
represent the Celestial Equator, which cuts right across the Belt of
Orion. Throughout history, Orion has been thought of as "the Hunter",
aiming his bow at Taurus (the Bull), with his trusty hunting hounds
in the vicinity (Canis Major & Canis Minor). Gorillas on the Planet
of the Apes seem to be into hunting big-time, so it isn't all that
unreasonable that they might think of Orion as a big hunting gorilla
up in the sky. So, then, they might have concocted that peculiar
glyph as a sort of "totem" or heraldic emblem of the "top gorilla" in
their social hierarchy. The circular studs on that poncho would
represent the stars in the night sky, by my interpretation.
Interestingly, a star in the constellation Orion (320 lightyears
away) is the intended destination of Taylor's voyage...

Mind you, this is all just my own interpretation of this particular
glyph; I'm not suggesting that this is what the costume designers had
in mind when they created it in the first place. I wonder if Morton
Haack is still alive, and if he ever told anybody what (if anything)
these strange symbols REALLY meant (to him, that is).

Patrick




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 3:51:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

As bizarre as it is, APE AND ESSENCE not only has talking apes in it,
but it also--and primarily--deals with the potential consequences of
all-out nuclear war, which is why I think that Serling (etc.) made
the 1968 POTA flick not merely an adaptation of Boulle's novel (which
had nothing to do with Nuclear War), but a THEMATIC adaptation of
Huxley's book.

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 9-18-2002

Well, Serling was notorious for "borrowing" from anything he could, he pushed himself so hard, but I doubt APE AND ESSENCE was much influence on him.  It sounds really wierd but I'll try getting it from the library.  Thanks.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 8:09:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Rory, you think I'm "cheating" with "my" Roswell-Alien theory, but
I'm hard-pressed to think of a more plausible SCIENTIFIC explanation
for how primitive apes could anatomically morph almost overnight
into "evolved" apes. Transgenics, to me, is the best explanation--and
that science is only recently blossoming amongst humans. It seems to
me that those mysterious "Greys" in their UFOs (who are said, by
some, to be conducting "abductions" and "human/alien breeding
experiments"!) which can out-fly our fastest jet fighters, and have
been around at least since World War II (the "foo fighters"), stand a
better chance of being the culprits behind the "uplifting" of the
POTA-universe's primitive apes into their "evolved" state. Why can't
those "Greys" be conducting a "simian/alien breeding program"?

Well, if you're going to stick yourself with having to explain the "cheating" done by Dehn in order that the APES sequels didn't move too far into the future and create bigger budget problems for the producers, then I guess a "wacko" Roswell theory will have to do, BUT NOT FOR ME.  I prefer to think that for some reason man found it necessary to do "transgenic" experiments on the great apes and society ended up with a slave class of "simius sapiens" that over the course of several centuries took over from an intellectually regressed humanity.

Dehn or the BENEATH creative team screwed up when the placed the nuclear war in the 20th century and that in turn flawed the rest of the series.  They needed to find an intelligent SF writer to tackle the POTA sequel instead of Dehn.

But thanks for the reply to my question.

-- Rory<.html

Doesn't J. Lee Thompson make 4?

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
>
> > jeff corey, Kim Hunter, James Gregory...hmmmm
> >
> They say these things happen in threes.

Was it really a screw-up. When they made Beneath they didn't know
that they'd be making Escape and the others. Its more of a case
where they wrote themselves into a corner because they didn't know
what the future held.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> Dehn or the BENEATH creative team screwed up when the placed the
nuclear war
> in the 20th century and that in turn flawed the rest of the
series.

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: patrickmichaeltilton

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:08 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Physiological Defects...

> I think we need to give Patrick a subject to discuss when he does
arrive.  How about this one:  Patrick, what physical changes would
you have to make in the modern day great apes for them to have
cognitive thought at our level and the ability to speak human
language?
>
> I find this stuff very interesting.  I'm sure Patrick has given it
much thought, but then he did cheat with that Roswell Alien theory. 
Come on, Patrick, we made the apes of Boulle's allegory (or satire if
you insist), so how did we genetically manipulate them?
>
> -- Rory

*** "We" didn't... but SOMEBODY else did...

Given that humans and chimps share 98.4% the same DNA genetic
blueprint (I'm not exactly sure how much is shared with gorillas and
orangutans, but it's probably around 97% at least), then it follows
that only 1.6% of human genes (and chimp genes) make us human and
make chimps chimps. In order to physiologically transform modern day
great apes into "simius sapiens" (to borrow Boulle's term), one would
have to genetically engineer that ape genome in such a way that that
1.6% ape-making portion of the genome worked to create an ape with
human-like morphological features (i.e. a larynx & palate capable of
producing human language sounds, and a brain that was more
convoluted/complex--as is the human brain--which comprised a higher
percentage of brain-to-body mass). It wouldn't hurt if the opposable
thumb were to morph in such a way as to be more prominent--as it is
in human hands; and if these "evolved apes" are to function
bipedally, rather than knucklewalking, it wouldn't hurt if their
opposable thumb-toes were to morphologically shrink a bit--and their
bodies would have to morph into a more human-like form, with the
pelvic bones and lower spine changing from what it is to what humans
have.
Since only about 1.6% of ape DNA has to be fiddled with (or, perhaps,
up to 3% for orangutans, which veered off onto a different branch of
the evolutionary tree longer ago than did chimps & gorillas), then
the only way such morphological changes could come into play so damn
soon and suddenly (i.e. by the time CONQUEST takes place in 1991,
when Lisa becomes the first ape--other than Caesar--known to be able
to speak: "N-n-no! N-n--!"), is if SOMEBODY purposely performed a
breeding experiment/program involving TRANSGENICS. Transgenics is
when you intentionally inject (or "splice") genes from one organism
into another, in the earliest stages of cellular development. If the
specific genes coding for human larynx/palate formation (etc.) were
to be spliced into the genetic code of a primitive
chimpanzee/gorilla/orangutan, then MAYBE the beastie born from such a
procedure would innately have the anatomy of an "evolved" ape.

Remember in JURASSIC PARK, when the geneticists use frog DNA to "fill
in the gaps" of dinosaur DNA recovered from amber-trapped insects?
The dinosaurs end up being able to do something that the FROGS
do: "switch" genders (if all the individual animals happen to be the
same gender), growing reproductive organs of the opposite gender, in
order to breed a larger population of dinosaurs on that island than
their not-so-clever scientist-creators thought they had created. THAT
is an example of "transgenics".

Similarly, whatever it is that genetically makes human beings capable
of intelligent speech, that portion of our genome (part of the 1.6%--
but not all) would have to be transgenically infused into apes in the
embryonic stage--which means that all the talking apes we see in
BATTLE (including that old geezer Mandemus) must have been the result
of some such purposeful scientific intervention. Since there's no
evidence that any human beings were around doing these sorts of
experiments around the middle of the 20th Century (Mandemus is
portrayed as "old" circa 2018, when BATTLE takes place), and we've
only recently "cracked" the human genome (that is, we've MAPPED it,
but we've only begun to interpret it), then it follows that ONLY
SOMEBODY ELSE with the scientific know-how COULD have created
the "talking apes" which end up being enslaved and sold to
totalitarian America in the late 1980's-to-early 1990's.
Rory, you think I'm "cheating" with "my" Roswell-Alien theory, but
I'm hard-pressed to think of a more plausible SCIENTIFIC explanation
for how primitive apes could anatomically morph almost overnight
into "evolved" apes. Transgenics, to me, is the best explanation--and
that science is only recently blossoming amongst humans. It seems to
me that those mysterious "Greys" in their UFOs (who are said, by
some, to be conducting "abductions" and "human/alien breeding
experiments"!) which can out-fly our fastest jet fighters, and have
been around at least since World War II (the "foo fighters"), stand a
better chance of being the culprits behind the "uplifting" of the
POTA-universe's primitive apes into their "evolved" state. Why can't
those "Greys" be conducting a "simian/alien breeding program"?

Perhaps those Greys share a similar percentage of human/simian DNA
(that is, those Greys branched off the same evolutionary tree some 10
million years ago--a sort of "protopithecus" which evolved over the
next 10,000,000 years into the big-headed, thin, grey-skinned "Grey"
beings. What might cause their morphology to be what it is (or, what
purported "Abductees" claim it to be)? Our morphology is a result of
the environments to which we adapt and survive. That's why people who
live in the Tropics tend to have darker skin pigmentation from those
who live in Temperate zones (and Polar zones)--we morphologically
adapt to our surroundings. The skinny, big-headed Greys might have
adapted to a specific environment, where it isn't so hard to hold up
a big cranium on a thin neck... an environment where the surface
gravity is less than that on Earth--say, about one-sixth of a gee...
where subsurface conditions prevent the dermis from receiving direct
sunlight, requiring BIG, BLACK EYES in order to see more of the
spectrum than our human eyes can see...
Hmmm... there are those who wonder why it is that we never did
establish a Moon base after the Apollo missions. Maybe, just maybe,
we were told to stay off somebody else's property...

Patrick

P.S. Does my "postulating" get too "wacky"? At least T is kind enough
to say that my "wackiness" is "well-thought-out". Thanks for that,
T... and I'm sorry that the loss of Kim (sad for us all) represented
a somewhat more personal loss for you.

P.P.S. Welcome to the Madhouse, "apefan23" & Rich & whoever else is
new around here. BTW, the Timeline is like the "prize" winner in
HIGHLANDER--there can be only one!




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 5:09 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] James Gregory RIP

In a message dated 9/18/02 7:41:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

jeff corey, Kim Hunter, James Gregory...hmmmm

They say these things happen in threes.

Well, it's happening in fours.  You forgot J Lee.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

It's not that he doesn't look back fondly on it (they seemed to have a
good time), he seems to think it was kind of cheesy and now he'd probably
people focus on his success in musical theatre. Though, as he said in the
doc, he can't escape from the POTA. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Kassidy and Naughton


> Kassidy,
>
> When you met James Naughton, I assume you asked him about POTA. If so, how
did he respond. Others (Jeff) have stated in the past that he doesn't look
back fondly on his time with the series.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 9:13:58 PM Central Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

If you count Heston's news and the new movie, POTA is cursed! Etc. - - - Jeff

NOT cursed, just getting older....

(Although the new movie is probably the final nail in the coffin as far as the franchise goes, film wise anyway... I'd say the best bet for any "legit" Apes stories, the world of comics or graphic novels holds the best chance...)<.html

Yeah, Joe Russo borrowed the Ron Harper quote from me for his book. Ron
felt Burke should have been more of a villain (I compare it to Dr. Smith in
"Lost in Space", selling them out) instead of them being two heroes. That
would have given them more excuses for always getting caught. Personally, I
liked the dynamics of the astronauts; they just needed better scripts. Ron
didn't stay in touch with "the gang"; Naughton and Roddy remained
friends. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kassidy Rae" <valwp@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 2:44 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Kassidy and Naughton


> --- In pota@y..., MTotsky@a... wrote:
> > Kassidy,
> >
> > When you met James Naughton, I assume you asked him about POTA. If
> so, how did he respond. Others (Jeff) have stated in the past that he
> doesn't look back fondly on his time with the series.
> >
> > Matt
>
> Actually, no. I was rather inebriated (had some killer Marguerita's
> at "Gabriella's" -- (you know the place, NYers?) and I was with
> another woman who knew him. She introduced us and I joked around
> with him a bit is all. I remember trying to teach him how to "talk
> southern" and telling him some about my trip. He laughed. He was
> really nice to me.
>
> BUT, having said that, I wrote him a letter, all about POTA, after
> that. Told him how I loved it. And he wrote me back and was again
> very nice but really didn't say much at all beyond it was "a long
> time ago".
>
> AND the friend I spoke of who is acquainted with him has spoken to
> him about POTA and you are right, according to her. He doesn't seem
> to be real thrilled about it, though I think he tries to remain
> silent about it for the most part. He said he did the Behind the
> POTA for Roddy, otherwise he wouldn't have been interested. And I
> think she asked him if he'd be interested in answering some questions
> to a group about POTA and he really preferred not to.
>
> Ron Harper doesn't seem to have bad memories of it, except for the
> scripts. He liked Roddy and seems to think James was playing a hero
> role like himself, when it would have been better for him to be the
> anti-hero. Read that somewhere. Also, on my web site he gave me a
> little story re: the series which I put on the first page.
>
> It ain't much, but it's all I know.
>
> Kassidy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 9:18:38 PM Central Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

Though, as he said in the doc, he can't escape from the POTA. - - - Jeff

That's right, Apedom is like the mafia, once you're in, you're in...<.html

.html

P.S. Does my "postulating" get too "wacky"? At least T is kind enough
to say that my "wackiness" is "well-thought-out". Thanks for that,
T... and I'm sorry that the loss of Kim (sad for us all) represented
a somewhat more personal loss for you.

Thanks Patrick.  And thank you for the nice words about Kim.  She should have had a much bigger career.  But then she would have had even less time for her family.  And who knows?  She might have gotten to big to do POTA.  And somehow I don't think Julie Harris or Natalie Wood were up to Zira.  Not that they weren't both fine actresses, but Kim was special.  The world is an emptier place with her passing.  It's amazing sometimes when the right part finds the right person -- like it was made for them.  I'd have to say Streetcar, Stairway to Heaven and POTA were the jewels in her crown.  Who'd have thought anyone could express so much through all that hair and rubber by just wrinkling her nose? 
Keep up the posts.  I'll do my best to get through them.  But I hope you'll understand, what with the writing and having to learn Japanese, this old dyslexic brain of mine can only take so much new info at any one time.  Don't take it personal if I reach for the delete button half way through.  And I'll try and keep the snappy comments to a minimum.

<.html

In a message dated 9/18/02 10:18:42 PM, veetus@... writes:

<< It's not that he doesn't look back fondly on it (they seemed to have a
good time), he seems to think it was kind of cheesy and now he'd probably
people focus on his success in musical theatre. Though, as he said in the
doc, he can't escape from the POTA. >>

I wish he wouldn't be such a "fuddy-duddy" about it. I really like the show
and I think Pete Burke is probably my favorite character. I think Naughton
did a great job given the material he had to work with. Too bad he doesn't
share my opinion.

Matt

.html

That's right, Apedom is like the mafia, once you're in, you're in...

Or like the MONKEE's say . . . Once a Monkee, always a Monkee.
<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 9:48:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Was it really a screw-up. When they made Beneath they didn't know
that they'd be making Escape and the others. Its more of a case
where they wrote themselves into a corner because they didn't know
what the future held.

I think it was a screw-up because Dehn didn't seem to read in Boulle's book were it took generations for the apes to take over.  He should have somehow shown that New York City was destroyed in a nuclear war that took place a long time after the astronauts left.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 10:33:41 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

I think it was a screw-up because Dehn didn't seem to read in Boulle's book were it took generations for the apes to take over.  He should have somehow shown that New York City was destroyed in a nuclear war that took place a long time after the astronauts left.

RIGHT ON!  
<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 10:14:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  If you count Heston's news and the new movie, POTA is cursed! Etc. - - - Jeff

And Arthur P. Jacobs dying of a heart attack at whatever early age he was.  Oh, boy!!!  The next thing you know is there will be a plague on dogs and cats, then a nuclear war, then the earth will belong to those damn dirty apes!!!!  And then things will really get bad.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 10:19:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:

(Although the new movie is probably the final nail in the coffin as far as the franchise goes, film wise anyway... I'd say the best bet for any "legit" Apes stories, the world of comics or graphic novels holds the best chance...)

I want a graphic novel of Boulle's book.  Who's with me?<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 10:24:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  Yeah, Joe Russo borrowed the Ron Harper quote from me for his book. Ron
felt Burke should have been more of a villain (I compare it to Dr. Smith in
"Lost in Space", selling them out) instead of them being two heroes. That
would have given them more excuses for always getting caught. Personally, I
liked the dynamics of the astronauts; they just needed better scripts. Ron
didn't stay in touch with "the gang"; Naughton and Roddy remained
friends. - - - Jeff

They needed MUCH better scripts, but the fugative formula the show was stuck with was too limited.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 10:25:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:

Though, as he said in the doc, he can't escape from the POTA. - - - Jeff

That's right, Apedom is like the mafia, once you're in, you're in...


And when you think you're out, they pull you back in!<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 10:38:46 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

(Although the new movie is probably the final nail in the coffin as far as the franchise goes, film wise anyway... I'd say the best bet for any "legit" Apes stories, the world of comics or graphic novels holds the best chance...)

I want a graphic novel of Boulle's book.  Who's with me?

Put me down as a yes on that one...<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 11:07:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Who'd have thought anyone could express so much through all that hair and rubber by just wrinkling her nose? 

And don't forget that cute little hopping walk!

Why are you learning Japanese, T?<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 11:10:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, MTotsky@... writes:

I wish he wouldn't be such a "fuddy-duddy" about it. I really like the show
and I think Pete Burke is probably my favorite character. I think Naughton
did a great job given the material he had to work with. Too bad he doesn't
share my opinion.

Matt

And not just that but he also believes in two timelines, Matt!  Believe, I know.  He's a very logical guy.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/18/02 10:40:39 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

That's right, Apedom is like the mafia, once you're in, you're in...

And when you think you're out, they pull you back in!

Kinda like this (at times, damnable) egroup.....<.html

Yes, consider yourself warned.

Michael

--- "Richard Cisak Jr." <rcisak@...> wrote:

> Oh my God, you guys weren't kidding about this guy.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Physiological Defects...
>
>
> > I think we need to give Patrick a subject to discuss when he

does

> arrive. How about this one: Patrick, what physical changes

would

> you have to make in the modern day great apes for them to have
> cognitive thought at our level and the ability to speak human
> language?
> >
> > I find this stuff very interesting. I'm sure Patrick has given

it

> much thought, but then he did cheat with that Roswell Alien

theory.

> Come on, Patrick, we made the apes of Boulle's allegory (or

satire if

> you insist), so how did we genetically manipulate them?
> >
> > -- Rory
>
> *** "We" didn't... but SOMEBODY else did...
>
> Given that humans and chimps share 98.4% the same DNA genetic
> blueprint (I'm not exactly sure how much is shared with gorillas

and

> orangutans, but it's probably around 97% at least), then it

follows

> that only 1.6% of human genes (and chimp genes) make us human and
> make chimps chimps. In order to physiologically transform modern

day

> great apes into "simius sapiens" (to borrow Boulle's term), one

would

> have to genetically engineer that ape genome in such a way that

that

> 1.6% ape-making portion of the genome worked to create an ape

with

> human-like morphological features (i.e. a larynx & palate capable

of

> producing human language sounds, and a brain that was more
> convoluted/complex--as is the human brain--which comprised a

higher

> percentage of brain-to-body mass). It wouldn't hurt if the

opposable

> thumb were to morph in such a way as to be more prominent--as it

is

> in human hands; and if these "evolved apes" are to function
> bipedally, rather than knucklewalking, it wouldn't hurt if their
> opposable thumb-toes were to morphologically shrink a bit--and

their

> bodies would have to morph into a more human-like form, with the
> pelvic bones and lower spine changing from what it is to what

humans

> have.
> Since only about 1.6% of ape DNA has to be fiddled with (or,

perhaps,

> up to 3% for orangutans, which veered off onto a different branch

of

> the evolutionary tree longer ago than did chimps & gorillas),

then

> the only way such morphological changes could come into play so

damn

> soon and suddenly (i.e. by the time CONQUEST takes place in 1991,
> when Lisa becomes the first ape--other than Caesar--known to be

able

> to speak: "N-n-no! N-n--!"), is if SOMEBODY purposely performed a
> breeding experiment/program involving TRANSGENICS. Transgenics is
> when you intentionally inject (or "splice") genes from one

organism

> into another, in the earliest stages of cellular development. If

the

> specific genes coding for human larynx/palate formation (etc.)

were

> to be spliced into the genetic code of a primitive
> chimpanzee/gorilla/orangutan, then MAYBE the beastie born from

such a

> procedure would innately have the anatomy of an "evolved" ape.
>
> Remember in JURASSIC PARK, when the geneticists use frog DNA

to "fill

> in the gaps" of dinosaur DNA recovered from amber-trapped

insects?

> The dinosaurs end up being able to do something that the FROGS
> do: "switch" genders (if all the individual animals happen to be

the

> same gender), growing reproductive organs of the opposite gender,

in

> order to breed a larger population of dinosaurs on that island

than

> their not-so-clever scientist-creators thought they had created.

THAT

> is an example of "transgenics".
>
> Similarly, whatever it is that genetically makes human beings

capable

> of intelligent speech, that portion of our genome (part of the

1.6%--

> but not all) would have to be transgenically infused into apes in

the

> embryonic stage--which means that all the talking apes we see in
> BATTLE (including that old geezer Mandemus) must have been the

result

> of some such purposeful scientific intervention. Since there's no
> evidence that any human beings were around doing these sorts of
> experiments around the middle of the 20th Century (Mandemus is
> portrayed as "old" circa 2018, when BATTLE takes place), and

we've

> only recently "cracked" the human genome (that is, we've MAPPED

it,

> but we've only begun to interpret it), then it follows that ONLY
> SOMEBODY ELSE with the scientific know-how COULD have created
> the "talking apes" which end up being enslaved and sold to
> totalitarian America in the late 1980's-to-early 1990's.
> Rory, you think I'm "cheating" with "my" Roswell-Alien theory,

but

> I'm hard-pressed to think of a more plausible SCIENTIFIC

explanation

> for how primitive apes could anatomically morph almost overnight
> into "evolved" apes. Transgenics, to me, is the best explanation--

and

> that science is only recently blossoming amongst humans. It seems

to

> me that those mysterious "Greys" in their UFOs (who are said, by
> some, to be conducting "abductions" and "human/alien breeding
> experiments"!) which can out-fly our fastest jet fighters, and

have

> been around at least since World War II (the "foo fighters"),

stand a

> better chance of being the culprits behind the "uplifting" of the
> POTA-universe's primitive apes into their "evolved" state. Why

can't

> those "Greys" be conducting a "simian/alien breeding program"?
>
> Perhaps those Greys share a similar percentage of human/simian

DNA

> (that is, those Greys branched off the same evolutionary tree

some 10

> million years ago--a sort of "protopithecus" which evolved over

the

> next 10,000,000 years into the big-headed, thin, grey-

skinned "Grey"

> beings. What might cause their morphology to be what it is (or,

what

> purported "Abductees" claim it to be)? Our morphology is a result

of

> the environments to which we adapt and survive. That's why people

who

> live in the Tropics tend to have darker skin pigmentation from

those

> who live in Temperate zones (and Polar zones)--we morphologically
> adapt to our surroundings. The skinny, big-headed Greys might

have

> adapted to a specific environment, where it isn't so hard to hold

up

> a big cranium on a thin neck... an environment where the surface
> gravity is less than that on Earth--say, about one-sixth of a

gee...

> where subsurface conditions prevent the dermis from receiving

direct

> sunlight, requiring BIG, BLACK EYES in order to see more of the
> spectrum than our human eyes can see...
> Hmmm... there are those who wonder why it is that we never did
> establish a Moon base after the Apollo missions. Maybe, just

maybe,

> we were told to stay off somebody else's property...
>
> Patrick
>
> P.S. Does my "postulating" get too "wacky"? At least T is kind

enough

> to say that my "wackiness" is "well-thought-out". Thanks for

that,

> T... and I'm sorry that the loss of Kim (sad for us all)

represented

> a somewhat more personal loss for you.
>
> P.P.S. Welcome to the Madhouse, "apefan23" & Rich & whoever else

is

> new around here. BTW, the Timeline is like the "prize" winner in
> HIGHLANDER--there can be only one!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>

Yes, I agree with Jeff that it seems less that the memories are
tainted and more that he is a little tired of "Hey, weren't you the
astronaut in that ape TV series?".

Michael

--- <veetus@...> wrote:

> Yeah, Joe Russo borrowed the Ron Harper quote from me for his

book. Ron

> felt Burke should have been more of a villain (I compare it to Dr.

Smith in

> "Lost in Space", selling them out) instead of them being two

heroes. That

> would have given them more excuses for always getting caught.

Personally, I

> liked the dynamics of the astronauts; they just needed better

scripts. Ron

> didn't stay in touch with "the gang"; Naughton and Roddy remained
> friends. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kassidy Rae" <valwp@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 2:44 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Kassidy and Naughton
>
>
> > --- In pota@y..., MTotsky@a... wrote:
> > > Kassidy,
> > >
> > > When you met James Naughton, I assume you asked him about POTA.

If

> > so, how did he respond. Others (Jeff) have stated in the past

that he

> > doesn't look back fondly on his time with the series.
> > >
> > > Matt
> >
> > Actually, no. I was rather inebriated (had some killer

Marguerita's

> > at "Gabriella's" -- (you know the place, NYers?) and I was with
> > another woman who knew him. She introduced us and I joked around
> > with him a bit is all. I remember trying to teach him how

to "talk

> > southern" and telling him some about my trip. He laughed. He was
> > really nice to me.
> >
> > BUT, having said that, I wrote him a letter, all about POTA, after
> > that. Told him how I loved it. And he wrote me back and was

again

> > very nice but really didn't say much at all beyond it was "a long
> > time ago".
> >
> > AND the friend I spoke of who is acquainted with him has spoken to
> > him about POTA and you are right, according to her. He doesn't

seem

> > to be real thrilled about it, though I think he tries to remain
> > silent about it for the most part. He said he did the Behind the
> > POTA for Roddy, otherwise he wouldn't have been interested. And I
> > think she asked him if he'd be interested in answering some

questions

> > to a group about POTA and he really preferred not to.
> >
> > Ron Harper doesn't seem to have bad memories of it, except for the
> > scripts. He liked Roddy and seems to think James was playing a

hero

> > role like himself, when it would have been better for him to be

the

> > anti-hero. Read that somewhere. Also, on my web site he gave me

a

> > little story re: the series which I put on the first page.
> >
> > It ain't much, but it's all I know.
> >
> > Kassidy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> Sell a Home for Top $
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

I am right there with you - actually, I would likr to see a movie
more true to the novel (failing that a really good animated
show/series).

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/18/02 10:19:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mlccougar@... writes:
>
>
> > (Although the new movie is probably the final nail in the coffin

as far as

> > the franchise goes, film wise anyway... I'd say the best bet for

any

> > "legit" Apes stories, the world of comics or graphic novels holds

the best

> > chance...)
> >
>
> I want a graphic novel of Boulle's book. Who's with me?
>

Yes, and I think they needed a better budget and a project plan
regarding where the show was heading.

But it was the old Fox milking the name that won out.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/18/02 10:24:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> veetus@... writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, Joe Russo borrowed the Ron Harper quote from me for his

book. Ron

> > felt Burke should have been more of a villain (I compare it to

Dr. Smith in

> > "Lost in Space", selling them out) instead of them being two

heroes. That

> > would have given them more excuses for always getting caught.

Personally, I

> > liked the dynamics of the astronauts; they just needed better

scripts. Ron

> > didn't stay in touch with "the gang"; Naughton and Roddy remained
> > friends. - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> >
>
> They needed MUCH better scripts, but the fugative formula the show

was stuck

> with was too limited.
>

When the show came out, it didn't bother me. There was something
else POTA to watch and that was enough. I guess it was a "religous"
approach - that to knock anything POTA was blasphemy and that's
that. I have to wonder how I would have reacted to the Burton movie
were it released in 1978. What do you think Rory? I think it stinks
now, but I am harder to please these days.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 9/18/02 10:24:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> veetus@... writes:
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, Joe Russo borrowed the Ron Harper quote from me for his

book. Ron

> > felt Burke should have been more of a villain (I compare it to

Dr. Smith in

> > "Lost in Space", selling them out) instead of them being two

heroes. That

> > would have given them more excuses for always getting caught.

Personally, I

> > liked the dynamics of the astronauts; they just needed better

scripts. Ron

> > didn't stay in touch with "the gang"; Naughton and Roddy remained
> > friends. - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> >
>
> They needed MUCH better scripts, but the fugative formula the show

was stuck

> with was too limited.
>

Yeah, he is kind of a fuddy-duddy. Burke was such a laid back character,
it seems odd for his vessel to be so serious about it. Roddy seemed to have
the healthiest opinion of it all, acknowledging the problems but being
graceful about how much people enjoyed them all. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Kassidy and Naughton


>
> In a message dated 9/18/02 10:18:42 PM, veetus@... writes:
>
> << It's not that he doesn't look back fondly on it (they seemed to have a
> good time), he seems to think it was kind of cheesy and now he'd probably
> people focus on his success in musical theatre. Though, as he said in the
> doc, he can't escape from the POTA. >>
>
> I wish he wouldn't be such a "fuddy-duddy" about it. I really like the
show
> and I think Pete Burke is probably my favorite character. I think Naughton
> did a great job given the material he had to work with. Too bad he doesn't
> share my opinion.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:31 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Physiological Defects...

In a message dated 9/18/02 9:48:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Was it really a screw-up. When they made Beneath they didn't know
that they'd be making Escape and the others. Its more of a case
where they wrote themselves into a corner because they didn't know
what the future held.

I think it was a screw-up because Dehn didn't seem to read in Boulle's book were it took generations for the apes to take over.  He should have somehow shown that New York City was destroyed in a nuclear war that took place a long time after the astronauts left.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:37 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] James Gregory RIP

In a message dated 9/18/02 10:19:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:

(Although the new movie is probably the final nail in the coffin as far as the franchise goes, film wise anyway... I'd say the best bet for any "legit" Apes stories, the world of comics or graphic novels holds the best chance...)

I want a graphic novel of Boulle's book.  Who's with me?

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlFrom Entertainment Weekly.com.  I could have written the paragraph on PLANET.






IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT 1967 (MGM, unrated, $19.98) Norman Jewison's message film about a Philadelphia cop (Sidney Poitier) who teams with a bigoted Southern sheriff (Rod Steiger) to solve a murder may seem dated, but at the height of the civil rights era, it was volcanic. When a white cotton magnate slaps Poitier, and he smacks The Man back, it's a declaration of black power that would echo all the way to ''Do the Right Thing.''

THE GRADUATE: SPECIAL EDITION 1967 (MGM, PG, $29.98) Kudos, of course, to director Mike Nichols for pulling off the generation-gap sex comedy, keyed to slinky Mrs. Robinson (Anne Bancroft) bedding hapless Benjamin (Dustin Hoffman). But mortarboard hats off, too, for lenser Robert Surtees. The way the wide-screen camera frames Benjamin as a guest star in his own life is every bit as expressive as the acting. Proof of the visuals' primacy: Try watching this cropped. ALL ABOUT THE GRADUATE

THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY 1968 (MGM, R, $24.98) Ahh-eee-ahh-eee-ahhhhh... Waah... waah... waah. Smiling yet? Sergio Leone's sublime spaghetti Western remains the balls-out joyride it was 34 years ago: an Italian-made Civil War-era adventure both faithful to and larger than the tired conventions of its genre. Not to mention the squinty, star-making performance of former TV actor Clint Eastwood. John Ford may have been the greatest Western director, but he never had this much fun. ALL ABOUT THE GOOD, THE BAD AND THE UGLY

PLANET OF THE APES 1968 (Fox, G, $24.98) Before the lame sequels, before the borderline inept TV series, and definitely before a certain reimagining, the original shocked audiences, and in the process, kicked off sci-fi's first true franchise. Plus, it proves it's possible to make an intelligent movie with people dressed in monkey suits. ALL ABOUT PLANET OF THE APES

THE WILD BUNCH 1969 (Warner, R, $19.98) We could gush about Sam Peckinpah's unapologetic use of guns and guts to tell his tale of outlaws out for one last ride -- presented on DVD in a director's cut not seen in three decades -- and we have before. But that would ignore the gritty humor and raw, ironic morality at its heart. Where ''The Good, the Bad and the Ugly'' was an operatic roller coaster, here the Western twists into an unparalleled spectacle of obscenity. ALL ABOUT THE WILD BUNCH

MIDNIGHT COWBOY 1969 (MGM, R, $19.98) Just a year after the release of ''The Odd Couple'' a duo far odder arrived: Joe Buck and Ratso Rizzo. Not only showcasing the versatility of Dustin Hoffman, this dark work was a clarion moan that presaged a challenging era where there was little room for Felix and Oscar (though this remains the only X-rated movie -- it's since been given an R -- to win one for Best Picture). ALL ABOUT MIDNIGHT COWBOY

BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID 1969 (Fox, PG, $29.98) As a dashing pair of outlaws trading quips while robbing trains, Paul Newman and Robert Redford (in the role that made him a star) followed screenwriter William Goldman's lead and perfected a new dimension in the Western: comedy. They also served as archetypes for the next 30 years of buddy-movie heroes. ALL ABOUT BUTCH CASSIDY AND THE SUNDANCE KID

<.html

What'd ya mean the OLD Fox?! You mean the always Fox. Etc. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Kassidy and Naughton


> Yes, and I think they needed a better budget and a project plan
> regarding where the show was heading.
>
> But it was the old Fox milking the name that won out.
>
> Michael
>
> --- Haristas@... wrote:
> > In a message dated 9/18/02 10:24:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > veetus@... writes:
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yeah, Joe Russo borrowed the Ron Harper quote from me for his
> book. Ron
> > > felt Burke should have been more of a villain (I compare it to
> Dr. Smith in
> > > "Lost in Space", selling them out) instead of them being two
> heroes. That
> > > would have given them more excuses for always getting caught.
> Personally, I
> > > liked the dynamics of the astronauts; they just needed better
> scripts. Ron
> > > didn't stay in touch with "the gang"; Naughton and Roddy remained
> > > friends. - - - Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > They needed MUCH better scripts, but the fugative formula the show
> was stuck
> > with was too limited.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/19/02 12:19:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

When the show came out, it didn't bother me.  There was something
else POTA to watch and that was enough.  I guess it was a "religous"
approach - that to knock anything POTA was blasphemy and that's
that.  I have to wonder how I would have reacted to the Burton movie
were it released in 1978.  What do you think Rory?  I think it stinks
now, but I am harder to please these days.

Michael

In 1978?   I would have thought Burton's POTA stank big time.  A truly bad movie is a stinker forever.

About James Naughton. . . .  Let's get Kassidy to give us his address, then let's all write letters to him telling how much we love him in the POTA TV show and that no matter what else he's done or ever will do that's all we'll remember him for, then let's tell him that his brother will be better remembered for "An American Werewolf in London."  That ought to get him.  Who's with me?
<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:07 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Physiological Defects...

P.S. Does my "postulating" get too "wacky"? At least T is kind enough
to say that my "wackiness" is "well-thought-out". Thanks for that,
T... and I'm sorry that the loss of Kim (sad for us all) represented
a somewhat more personal loss for you.

Thanks Patrick.  And thank you for the nice words about Kim.  She should have had a much bigger career.  But then she would have had even less time for her family.  And who knows?  She might have gotten to big to do POTA.  And somehow I don't think Julie Harris or Natalie Wood were up to Zira.  Not that they weren't both fine actresses, but Kim was special.  The world is an emptier place with her passing.  It's amazing sometimes when the right part finds the right person -- like it was made for them.  I'd have to say Streetcar, Stairway to Heaven and POTA were the jewels in her crown.  Who'd have thought anyone could express so much through all that hair and rubber by just wrinkling her nose? 
Keep up the posts.  I'll do my best to get through them.  But I hope you'll understand, what with the writing and having to learn Japanese, this old dyslexic brain of mine can only take so much new info at any one time.  Don't take it personal if I reach for the delete button half way through.  And I'll try and keep the snappy comments to a minimum.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Well, you know how I feel about the show. I loved it. I look at the
dvds and still love it. And yes, I know the scripts were in need of
help--especially "Tomorrow's Tide". Don't care, loved it anyway. I
can watch something and even if it's flawed, it doesn't ruin the
good: the three leads, the music, and always always the apes. You
can't tell me those guys didn't rise above some of the lines they had
to work with.

I do know one other thing, and that is Mr. Naughton's son Greg loved
the show. He loved the set, and riding. Can you imagine how great
that must have been to a kid?

By the way, if you want to look at a really bad sci-fi series at
around the same time, check out "Logan's Run". I loved it back then,
but whew is it poor. Still, I like watching it. Who knows why?
Don't whiz on my cheese.

Kassidy


In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:

> Yeah, he is kind of a fuddy-duddy. Burke was such a laid back

character,

> it seems odd for his vessel to be so serious about it. Roddy seemed

to have

> the healthiest opinion of it all, acknowledging the problems but

being

> graceful about how much people enjoyed them all. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <MTotsky@a...>
> To: <pota@y...>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Kassidy and Naughton
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 9/18/02 10:18:42 PM, veetus@e... writes:
> >
> > << It's not that he doesn't look back fondly on it (they seemed

to have a

> > good time), he seems to think it was kind of cheesy and now he'd

probably

> > people focus on his success in musical theatre. Though, as he

said in the

> > doc, he can't escape from the POTA. >>
> >
> > I wish he wouldn't be such a "fuddy-duddy" about it. I really

like the

> show
> > and I think Pete Burke is probably my favorite character. I think

Naughton

> > did a great job given the material he had to work with. Too bad

he doesn't

> > share my opinion.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >

.htmlIn a message dated 9/19/02 12:24:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  Yeah, he is kind of a fuddy-duddy. Burke was such a laid back character,
it seems odd for his vessel to be so serious about it. Roddy seemed to have
the healthiest opinion of it all, acknowledging the problems but being
graceful about how much people enjoyed them all. - - - Jeff

Roddy never seemed to have a truly nasty thing to say about anyone or anything.  In the interview on the BEHIND S.E. DVD (Do the new guys in the group know about that?  Does Kassidy?) he does call the TV show ill-conceived -- and he's right about that.

By the way, here's what I posted on IMDb.com about the TV series (I haven't got around to commenting on the original movie yet.):
Comments index for "Planet of the Apes" (1974)

haristas
USA

Date: 6 August 2002
Summary: ill-conceived and dull

By the time CBS started airing this show on Friday nights in September 1974, the PLANET OF THE APES had really been milked to death. What had been such a unique, intriguing and fun science fiction concept in 1968 when the original film starring Charlton Heston was released, had by the fourth film sequel in 1973 been intellectually emasculated down to barely interesting kiddie fare. Any possible allegorical or satirical take on apes talking had been explored and there was really no place left to go. The producer, Arthur P. Jacobs, wisely called it quits. But then, in September 1973, the original film was shown for the first time on network TV and had a sixty share of that night's audience. APES was suddenly "hot" again, but the fact remained that there were already five films. The resulting TV series ended up being a rather ill-conceived "Fugitive" formula show that only played lip service to the concept's allegorical possibilities by reminding its audience in every episode of the stupidity of prejudice. This got rather trite fast. Also, the makeup for the apes, which had been done well in the original film, was too often applied rather slapdash here due to the rushed nature of TV production, with the result that suspension of disbelief for anybody over the age of ten became quit difficult if not impossible. Series star, Roddy McDowall, veteran of four of the five APES films, had by this time played a chimpanzee in nearly every conceivable way and so opted primarily for whimsy with the character of Galen here. This began to grate quickly as well. The result was that the audience for this show was mostly kids and that demographic couldn't attract the kind of sponsor dollars the network needed, so the show died a merciful death after only fourteen episodes. Any fans of the show now are those kids that loved it then and are on a nostalgia trip. I saw the original film in 1968 when I was eight years old. It was instantly my favorite movie and remains so today, but this TV series should never have been made.

And that's how I feel about it.  Sorry Kassidy.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/19/02 12:29:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  That would be great! And have somebody cool like McFarlane do action figures based on the book (for next year's 40th anniversary!). After the dismal reception of POTA2001 Fox seemed to embrace the book to soothe fans ("Don't forget to read the classic book" it said on the DVD and VHS). But there's not enough popularity that they have to keep coming up with stuff, like "Star Wars" or "Star Trek". - - - Jeff

McFarlane action figures?!!!  I'm going to want that naked Nova figure, and Kassidy will just have to have the nude Ulysse Merou.  I know you'll flip for the nude Professor Antelle, Jeff.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/19/02 12:36:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  What'd ya mean the OLD Fox?! You mean the always Fox. Etc. - - - Jeff

Yeah, let's not forget how those bastards wrung every last dollar out of poor little Shirley Temple!   And when Roddy got to be a creepy teenager, out the door!<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/19/02 12:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  Dehn seemed to go over Boulle's book with a fine-tooth comb, borrowing ideas throughout. I just think they wanted to keep the time frame closer to "Escape" so they didn't have to worry too much about creating "the future", they could use Armando, and basically tie things together more. - - - Jeff

I think AFTER "Beneath" Dehn paid more attention to Boulle's book, but yeah about your second point, plus it kept the budgets down.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/19/02 12:41:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, valwp@... writes:

Well, you know how I feel about the show.  I loved it.  I look at the
dvds and still love it.  And yes, I know the scripts were in need of
help--especially "Tomorrow's Tide".  Don't care, loved it anyway. I
can watch something and even if it's flawed, it doesn't ruin the
good: the three leads, the music, and always always the apes.  You
can't tell me those guys didn't rise above some of the lines they had
to work with.

I do know one other thing, and that is Mr. Naughton's son Greg loved
the show.  He loved the set, and riding. Can you imagine how great
that must have been to a kid?

By the way, if you want to look at a really bad sci-fi series at
around the same time, check out "Logan's Run".  I loved it back then,
but whew is it poor.  Still, I like watching it.  Who knows why? 
Don't whiz on my cheese.

Kassidy

Kassidy, you're so cool.  I got my favorite bad things too ("Logan Run -- the movie" really stinks too, but at least it has a Jerry Goldsmith score.  And no, I don't like either of them.)  ONE MILLION YEARS B.C. is truly bad, but I love it.  There's also this space vampire movie called LIFEFORCE that stinks too, but I like that.  It's certain things in certain movies that just appeal to you.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 9/19/02 1:01:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

  I'm sorry to bear the news that Rory died. AH HA HA! Just kidding. Actually, I found a use for those Kubrick figures. There's so many of them that I was able to create a little memorial. I took Ursus (James Gregory), Zira (Kim Hunter), the mutant (Jeff Corey) and put them in front of the "Conquest" diorama (representing J. Lee). Then I took the Taylor figure and removed his head, representing Heston's dilemma. Aren't Kubricks wonderful? - - - Jeff

You crazy bastard!<.html

Is Logan's Run the TV Series available?

I liked that one too.....

Michael

--- "Kassidy Rae" <valwp@...> wrote:

> Well, you know how I feel about the show. I loved it. I look at

the

> dvds and still love it. And yes, I know the scripts were in need

of

> help--especially "Tomorrow's Tide". Don't care, loved it anyway. I
> can watch something and even if it's flawed, it doesn't ruin the
> good: the three leads, the music, and always always the apes. You
> can't tell me those guys didn't rise above some of the lines they

had

> to work with.
>
> I do know one other thing, and that is Mr. Naughton's son Greg

loved

> the show. He loved the set, and riding. Can you imagine how great
> that must have been to a kid?
>
> By the way, if you want to look at a really bad sci-fi series at
> around the same time, check out "Logan's Run". I loved it back

then,

> but whew is it poor. Still, I like watching it. Who knows why?
> Don't whiz on my cheese.
>
> Kassidy
>
>
> In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > Yeah, he is kind of a fuddy-duddy. Burke was such a laid back
> character,
> > it seems odd for his vessel to be so serious about it. Roddy

seemed

> to have
> > the healthiest opinion of it all, acknowledging the problems but
> being
> > graceful about how much people enjoyed them all. - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <MTotsky@a...>
> > To: <pota@y...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Kassidy and Naughton
> >
> >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 9/18/02 10:18:42 PM, veetus@e... writes:
> > >
> > > << It's not that he doesn't look back fondly on it (they seemed
> to have a
> > > good time), he seems to think it was kind of cheesy and now

he'd

> probably
> > > people focus on his success in musical theatre. Though, as he
> said in the
> > > doc, he can't escape from the POTA. >>
> > >
> > > I wish he wouldn't be such a "fuddy-duddy" about it. I really
> like the
> > show
> > > and I think Pete Burke is probably my favorite character. I

think

> Naughton
> > > did a great job given the material he had to work with. Too bad
> he doesn't
> > > share my opinion.
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > >
> > >
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 9/19/02 1:06:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

Is Logan's Run the TV Series available?

I liked that one too.....

Michael

Good GOD!  No, it's not!<.html

.htmlWhy are you learning Japanese, T?

Because, much like Pat's posts, I can't get through the subtitles in anime.  I get half way through and their on to the next one.  And I refuse to watch dubbed animes, except the ones on Adult Swim.  When I watch them at home, I do it with one finger on the pause button.  What?  Did you think POTA movies were my only obsession?  Hey, if Hollywood isn't interested in my movie there's always Tokyo.  Though I would feel a bit like Christopher Ryan's character on Ab Fab having to do my movie as a cartoon.  Many Animes are quite good.
<.html