We are all guilty of the same thing...it is just time to do something
about it.

Michael

--- LordTZer0@... wrote:

> However, I come here to discuss POTA, not politics or gun control

laws or the

> weekend box office or even other
> SF films.
>
> I'm for that. Sorry for going off on tangents. When someone asks

an OT

> question or slings monkey poop on some topic I actually have an

opinion on, I

> just can't resist.
>

One thing I felt missing from the TV series was the Mutants. All the
humans that they encountered were those dominated by the Apes. I
really would of liked to have seen how they evolved into the society
shown in Beneath.

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
>
> > What about Brian's topic?
>
> If I had some really cool ideas I'd sell 'em.
> But if you just want to bat some ideas around, I'm game.

Very good point, and possibly where the TV series was going...they
found a city, with human scavengers, and remnants of
technology....they may have even wanted mutants but have been
restricted by budget.


--- "james611102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:

> One thing I felt missing from the TV series was the Mutants. All

the

> humans that they encountered were those dominated by the Apes. I
> really would of liked to have seen how they evolved into the

society

> shown in Beneath.
>
> --- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> >
> > > What about Brian's topic?
> >
> > If I had some really cool ideas I'd sell 'em.
> > But if you just want to bat some ideas around, I'm game.
>
>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 5:08:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

But apparently, according to Rory, we should all just roll over and take it in the ass.  But if, perchance, we should ever even consider futilely resisting, and standing up for our rights, then we're just some kook.  Or am I reading your position wrong?

Resisting what exactly?  Just what is the worry?  That there will be a military take over of the US?   Jesus, you might as well worry about getting hit by lightening or Betelgeuse going supernova.

You Aussies getting this?   What you're hearing is a modern American mental illness.

T, go see "Bowling for Columbine."  Maybe you'll have your eyes opened to how silly you sound.

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 6:24 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] New Group?

However, I come here to discuss POTA, not politics or gun control laws or the weekend box office or even other
SF films.

I'm for that.  Sorry for going off on tangents.  When someone asks an OT question or slings monkey poop on some topic I actually have an opinion on, I just can't resist.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 6:09:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

So what lesson are you trying to teach?  Don't try?  There's a little film coming on TCM right now you should watch.  It's called Spartacus.

And what happens in the end to Spartacus, Mr. Einstein?  You just proved my point, genius.<.html

Guilty of what? When we stick to just POTA all you can hear is
crickets. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] New Group?


> We are all guilty of the same thing...it is just time to do something
> about it.
>
> Michael
>
> --- LordTZer0@... wrote:
> > However, I come here to discuss POTA, not politics or gun control
> laws or the
> > weekend box office or even other
> > SF films.
> >
> > I'm for that. Sorry for going off on tangents. When someone asks
> an OT
> > question or slings monkey poop on some topic I actually have an
> opinion on, I
> > just can't resist.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I like the group the way it is. Sometimes the weekend posts get a little out
of hand, but it is never unmanagable. I don't mind the off topic posts. I
enjoy the tangents that talk about other films, DVDs etc (in fact I was
thinking about starting another list just dedicated to that. I appreciate the
opinions of people like Jeff and Rory in that area). The common thread we
have here is APES, but sometimes you can only talk about it so much. I'm glad
Brian is back from his sabbatical, because I've always enjoyed his postings.
It's OK to take a break and explore other things. If the tangent goes off
into something I don't care about, then I'll either delete or skip the
messages. But if something major in the APES world happens (the passing of
Kim Hunter for example) then this is where I want to be.

The only thing I don't want to see here is flame wars. It just drags the list
down. Thankfully they have been kept to a minimum here. I think Patrick takes
too much abuse here. Some of the name calling is uncalled for. I actually
know Rory pretty well, so I know his sense of humor, but others I'm not sure
about (Whitty and Cougar have been guilty of that just this week). It's a
good thing he seems to be a good sport about it.

I know I personally don't contribute as much as I did, but I do enjoy the
list and wouldn't think of leaving.

My 2 cents...

Matt

I didn't miss the mutants. I always felt they were a drag on
believability. And I doubt the TV show would have been able to do sets like
in "Beneath". We would've got "Battle", a sewer system or something. - - -
Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] New Group?


> One thing I felt missing from the TV series was the Mutants. All the
> humans that they encountered were those dominated by the Apes. I
> really would of liked to have seen how they evolved into the society
> shown in Beneath.
>
> --- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> >
> > > What about Brian's topic?
> >
> > If I had some really cool ideas I'd sell 'em.
> > But if you just want to bat some ideas around, I'm game.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 7:42:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

I am wondering if it might be worth leaving this group to debate
unrelated aspects of religion and politics and maybe start another
group where people can feel free to stick to Planet of the Apes?

I think we actually need some ground rules (like the ones we have
about "OT" and going private at a certain point - which I certainly
have neglected to do recently!), an active moderator and to stop
going off track.

And we could bansh non-contributing lurkers to the Forbidden Zone if
they continue to hang around too long (I think most of
these "lurkers" are just invalid email addresses and people who
couldn't be bothered de-registering).

Thoughts please.

Michael

Yeah, forget about.  Planet of the Apes isn't that deep a subject, and the other stuff we talk about helps keep things interesting from day to day.  Besides, the whole point of POTA is that WE are the planet of apes.

Just try to keep that mental image in your mind, we're all monkeys here typing away.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 8:17:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  I don't think we need thought police around here. If we're just going to
stick to how cool the makeup is and map talk then I'LL leave. - - - Jeff

You all hear the Grand High Potentate?!!!<.html

Just thought I'd throw in an "(OT)".

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 6:09:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> LordTZer0@... writes:
>
>
> > So what lesson are you trying to teach? Don't try? There's a

little film

> > coming on TCM right now you should watch. It's called Spartacus.
> >
>
> And what happens in the end to Spartacus, Mr. Einstein? You just

proved my

> point, genius.
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 8:40:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Do you REALLY think the only remaining topics would be how cool the
makeup is and map talk?  What about Brian's topic?  What about script
ideas?  What about TOPICAL political and religious
debates/parallels?  What about the mothership and Pole Shifted New-
America?  What about your (Jeff's) including Natalie in a chat?

There is a whole world of topics out there to choose from.

Michael

What about you stop bitching and do something?<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 8:46:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, menluth@... writes:

This past week's loss of 9 POTA list members is probably not coincidental.

Menluth.

Yeah, you HAD to bring in that Time of the Apes thing!<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 8:55:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Frankly, I agree with Michael. Although I am guilty myself, I've
tried to always put OT in the subject line and to keep off topic
posts to a minimum. However, I come here to discuss POTA, not
politics or gun control laws or the weekend box office or even other
SF films. There are groups, web sites and message boards that I can
go to for any of those topics.

Alright, you and Michael go off and start your own group, and Jeff and I will remain here and keep on keepin' on as we have.  Believe me, you'll be back long before we join you!

When somebody has a good POTA topic or some POTA news to break then we'll all happily be back on topic, in the meantime CHILL!

How about this?  I got a question, and try to answer it without looking at the movie.  You know Dr. Zaius' "man hunt" or expiditionary out fit that we wears at the end of PLANET?  Where are the glyphs on it.  I'm not talking about the one in BENEATH, they glyphed that one all up, but the one at the end of PLANET.  Where are the glyphs?

-- Rory<.html

There is so much that good writers could do with a new POTA TV
series. My preference would be to base it on the characters of the
original 2 films, but I think I could also handle something based on
the world of POTA 2001. It took me a while to get over my
disappointment with Tim Burton's film, but after reading the first
prequel novel (The Fall) and the 2 mini prequel novels based on the
lives of young Ari, Attar, Thade, and Daena, I began to warm up to
the idea that there are many good stories that could be developed
based on the newer scenario.

I agree that the "Underdwellers" would have been a great addition to
the POTA TV series. To me, the offer an important balance to POTA.
In the TV series, the humans are always the "good guys", the
underdogs. But in the films, we get a rather complex message that
neither human nor ape are wholly good or bad. Much though I love
POTA TV, it surely could not have gone on much longer without
bringing out this aspect. A new series could certainly explore that.

I'm not averse to seeing other species of primate showcased in some
fashion. In POTA 2001, Krull refers to "monkeys" as being "lower on
the evolutionary scale". Therefore, there must be some monkeys on
his world. The French version of POTA 2001 translates that line
as "macaques" (French not making a distinction between 'great ape'
or monkey). And I think it was the "Ape City" comic series that
featured baboonjas! Perhaps they could be made less ridiculous and
used in some fashion.

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 9:22:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

There is a whole world of topics out there to choose from.

Michael

I have to agree with you on this one..... 

THEN MENTION SOME!!!!   SOME THAT ARE INTERESTING, THAT IS!<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:42 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: New Group?

In a message dated 11/10/02 8:46:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, menluth@... writes:

This past week's loss of 9 POTA list members is probably not coincidental.

Menluth.

Yeah, you HAD to bring in that Time of the Apes thing!

<.html

Can't tell you without watching, sorry.

Oh, I changed the subject line for you. You're welcome.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 8:55:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
>
> > Frankly, I agree with Michael. Although I am guilty myself, I've
> > tried to always put OT in the subject line and to keep off topic
> > posts to a minimum. However, I come here to discuss POTA, not
> > politics or gun control laws or the weekend box office or even

other

> > SF films. There are groups, web sites and message boards that I

can

> > go to for any of those topics.
> >
> Alright, you and Michael go off and start your own group, and Jeff

and I will

> remain here and keep on keepin' on as we have. Believe me, you'll

be back

> long before we join you!
>
> When somebody has a good POTA topic or some POTA news to break then

we'll all

> happily be back on topic, in the meantime CHILL!
>
> How about this? I got a question, and try to answer it without

looking at

> the movie. You know Dr. Zaius' "man hunt" or expiditionary out fit

that we

> wears at the end of PLANET? Where are the glyphs on it. I'm not

talking

> about the one in BENEATH, they glyphed that one all up, but the one

at the

> end of PLANET. Where are the glyphs?
>
> -- Rory
>

Attachments :

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 9:27:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

In a message dated 11/10/2002 7:55:29 PM Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Frankly, I agree with Michael. Although I am guilty myself, I've
tried to always put OT in the subject line and to keep off topic
posts to a minimum. However, I come here to discuss POTA, not
politics or gun control laws or the weekend box office or even other
SF films. There are groups, web sites and message boards that I can
go to for any of those topics.

"Thank you" for your agreement with Whitty and myself... I have posted on this subject before, and it seems Whitty was the only one to chime in with any sort of agreement. It's good to see another person agrees with us...

We are all guilty of the same thing...it is just time to do something
about it.

Michael


Okay, now Cougar, James, Michael and T can go off and start another group.  You know what I say?

BYE! BYE!      BYE! BYE!

So, Jeff. . . . What do you think about "8 Mile" being #1 t this weekend's boxoffice?  I saw it today.  It was pretty entertaining.

-- Rory
<.html

So do I.

I call them my e-friends.

But I can't help getting the shits at looking at 56 new emails, then
finding a majority are OT BS!

And we ARE scaring people off.

GOOD people, who DO contribute.

That's not good.

So I've stopped bitching, and I am doing something about it.

Michael

--- <veetus@...> wrote:

> Another thing to consider is I think of the people in this group

as frien

> ds, and sometimes when you see an interesting bit of news you just

want to

> share it. I think that's part of what this is supposed to be about,

people

> with similar interests sharing. I don't want to to belong to 10

other grou

> ps like James does. - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haristas@...
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: New Group?
>
>
> In a message dated 11/10/02 8:46:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,

menluth@yah

> oo.ca writes:
>
>
>
> This past week's loss of 9 POTA list members is probably not

coincident

> al.
>
> Menluth.
>
>
>
>
> Yeah, you HAD to bring in that Time of the Apes thing!
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:58 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] New Group?

In a message dated 11/10/02 9:27:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

In a message dated 11/10/2002 7:55:29 PM Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Frankly, I agree with Michael. Although I am guilty myself, I've
tried to always put OT in the subject line and to keep off topic
posts to a minimum. However, I come here to discuss POTA, not
politics or gun control laws or the weekend box office or even other
SF films. There are groups, web sites and message boards that I can
go to for any of those topics.

"Thank you" for your agreement with Whitty and myself... I have posted on this subject before, and it seems Whitty was the only one to chime in with any sort of agreement. It's good to see another person agrees with us...

We are all guilty of the same thing...it is just time to do something
about it.

Michael


Okay, now Cougar, James, Michael and T can go off and start another group.  You know what I say?

BYE! BYE!      BYE! BYE!

So, Jeff. . . . What do you think about "8 Mile" being #1 t this weekend's boxoffice?  I saw it today.  It was pretty entertaining.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
<.html

In a message dated 11/11/02 12:00:23 AM, Haristas@... writes:

<< So, Jeff. . . . What do you think about "8 Mile" being #1 t this weekend's
boxoffice? I saw it today. It was pretty entertaining. >>

Rory,

How did it make Detroit look? Was Eminem actually good?

Matt (who lives off of 13 Mile)

a) this group seems to stay around 100 members, so we're hardly scaring
people off (if we can keep that many with all these posts we're doing
something right). I think the big exoduses are when things get ugly (like
last night)

b) most people don't contribute anyway, even with a good topic

What was the question again? - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: New Group?


> So do I.
>
> I call them my e-friends.
>
> But I can't help getting the shits at looking at 56 new emails, then
> finding a majority are OT BS!
>
> And we ARE scaring people off.
>
> GOOD people, who DO contribute.
>
> That's not good.
>
> So I've stopped bitching, and I am doing something about it.
>
> Michael
>
> --- <veetus@...> wrote:
> > Another thing to consider is I think of the people in this group
> as frien
> > ds, and sometimes when you see an interesting bit of news you just
> want to
> > share it. I think that's part of what this is supposed to be about,
> people
> > with similar interests sharing. I don't want to to belong to 10
> other grou
> > ps like James does. - - Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Haristas@...
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: New Group?
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 11/10/02 8:46:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> menluth@yah
> > oo.ca writes:
> >
> >
> >
> > This past week's loss of 9 POTA list members is probably not
> coincident
> > al.
> >
> > Menluth.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, you HAD to bring in that Time of the Apes thing!
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

Just what is the worry?

No worries mate.
Did I say I was worried?  No. I never did.  Would you like to read that as I'm looking forward to something like that?  Go ahead.  Am I?  No.  Let enter Rory in the Olympic Long Conclusion Jump.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 10:33:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

In a month and a half it will be POTA's 40th anniversary year. Hopefully these rumors of a "5-star" DVD and an AMC thing are true. Certainly the Medicoms are going to keep coming. Let's make it a fun anniversary. - - - Jeff

That reminds me.  Here's a copy of a letter I'm going to start mailing to Fox every month.  Maybe some of you might want to copy it into your word program, personalize it, and join me in making sure we get a 5 Star DVD of PLANET, or maybe you's just rather wish there were mutants in a thirty-year-old TV series?



Michael Dunn, Exec. VP. Mktg. & Sales
20th Century Fox Home Entertainment Inc.
2121 Avenue of the Stars, 25th Floor
Los Angeles, California              90067-5010

Dear Sir:

I'm writing to request that TCFHE give serious consideration to doing a 5 Star Collector's Edition of the original PLANET OF THE APES on DVD.

As I'm sure you know, the current DVD edition of this classic Fox film has a fine picture transfer, but was unfortunately done before your company made the commitment to doing only anamorphic transfers.  PLANET OF THE APES enhanced for 16X9 displays is greatly desired by fans, and a remastering of this popular title would also allow you to make digital improvements to the movie's look on video.  I also understand that mistakes were made to the Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack remastering of PLANET OF THE APES that resulted in poor stereo separation and a lack of the directional dialogue Fox films from that era are famed for.  I'm sure Fox can do a much better job on the soundtrack for this film, and an improved DD 5.1 or DTS remix would be a great selling point for a new 5 Star DVD edition.

Your company has also made a commitment to the new D-VHS format, but have yet to release any classic Fox titles.  An improved transfer of the original PLANET OF THE APES would certainly make for an exciting D-VHS release.  I would also hope that if you do decide to do a 5 Star DVD of APES that you'll include the same kind of supplemental features that your other 5 Star editions have.   Especially desired by me would be an interview with Jerry Goldsmith on his landmark score, as well as the score on an isolated track.  Whatever outtakes or unused footage that may survive, and an extensive photo gallery of behind-the-scenes shots would be greatly appreciated.

I'd also like to request that you don't use the same cover art that appeared on the 30th Anniversary release.  The end of PLANET OF THE APES is one of the greatest endings in film history.  Although it may be well known, there are some who haven't seen it.  Why spoil it by putting it on the DVD cover?  I've always liked the original poster art.  Perhaps you could return to it.

The year 2003 will mark the 35th Anniversary of the release of PLANET OF THE APES and a 5 Star Edition DVD would certainly be a fitting tribute to a great 20th Century Fox classic.  Don't you agree?

Sincerely,


Rory Monteith


<.html

Thought police is a bit over the top Jeff, and I don't expect you to
leave. I would probably tune in to this group every so often (to see
what Rory thinks of certain movies...no sarcasm, I do enjoy his
comments), but I would prefer to belong to a POTA group that sticks
(generally) to the topic and does not scare off decent contributors.

Michael

--- <veetus@...> wrote:

> I don't think we need thought police around here. If we're just

going to

> stick to how cool the makeup is and map talk then I'LL leave. - - -

Jeff

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <whitty@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:41 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] New Group?
>
>
> > I am wondering if it might be worth leaving this group to debate
> > unrelated aspects of religion and politics and maybe start another
> > group where people can feel free to stick to Planet of the Apes?
> >
> > I think we actually need some ground rules (like the ones we have
> > about "OT" and going private at a certain point - which I

certainly

> > have neglected to do recently!), an active moderator and to stop
> > going off track.
> >
> > And we could bansh non-contributing lurkers to the Forbidden Zone

if

> > they continue to hang around too long (I think most of
> > these "lurkers" are just invalid email addresses and people who
> > couldn't be bothered de-registering).
> >
> > Thoughts please.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> Sell a Home with Ease!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.htmlAnd what happens in the end to Spartacus, Mr. Einstein?  You just proved my point, genius.

Did you forget the question there Professor Hawking?  My point was even though he knew he would lose, he fought anyway.  So he could live and die as a man.  Which brings up an interesting point.  Both Jesus and Spartacus were crucified.  But I think self-sacrifice is no less nobel a virtue than fighting for freedom.  Paradoxical, isn't it?
<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 10:34:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, MTotsky@... writes:

The only thing I don't want to see here is flame wars. It just drags the list
down. Thankfully they have been kept to a minimum here. I think Patrick takes
too much abuse here. Some of the name calling is uncalled for. I actually
know Rory pretty well, so I know his sense of humor, but others I'm not sure
about (Whitty and Cougar have been guilty of that just this week).  It's a
good thing he seems to be a good sport about it.

Oh, I like getting it out of my system.  I've privately contacted Patrick and told him it's all a big joke.  But he didn't respond.  He probably thinks I really am a bastard, but you know what?  I don't care.  It's all a goof.

-- Rory<.html

.html

I do enjoy the list and wouldn't think of leaving.

My 2 cents...

Here here, there, Trotsky!

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 10:55:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Can't tell you without watching, sorry.

Oh, I changed the subject line for you.  You're welcome.

Michael

Oh, go back to watching The Simpsons!<.html

.html

Just try to keep that mental image in your mind, we're all monkeys here typing away.
-- Rory

Aside from Christopher Walken's usual over the top performance, that's something I really liked about the Prophecy series.  All the monkey references.

"Laugh while you can, Monkey Boy!"
~~~Dr Emilio "Lord John Worfin" Lizardo from Buckaroo Banzai~~~~<.html

Precisely.

--- "Menluth" <menluth@...> wrote:

>
> I have been a member of several on-line lists. They tend to go
> through similar periods of activity or inactivity, positive trends
> and negative ones. Personally, I don't mind moderators at all, even
> if they delete my own messages. But even when there is a moderator
> who decides to edit or delete inappropriate messages, they run the
> risk of getting negative or derogatory e-mails from the angry and
> intolerant types.
>
> A list works best when the quiet viewers participate as well. But
> harsh words, abusive language, racial generalizations, sexist
> remarks, or prolongued off-topic discussions will force them out
> before they ever get around to contributing. I have seen all of the
> above on this list within the past 2 weeks. With on-line groups,

the

> cryptic "please remove me from this list" is usually not a cry for
> computer help, but a much-too diplomatic way of saying "This isn't
> for me, so I'm out of here". This past week's loss of 9 POTA list
> members is probably not coincidental.
>
> Just my two cents' worth! (speaking of money, has anyone voted in
> that POTA money poll yet?)!
>
> Menluth.
>
> ��Check out the "Saru no Gundan - Time of the Apes" Yahoo mailing
> list on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sarunogundan !!
>
> --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > I am wondering if it might be worth leaving this group to debate
> > unrelated aspects of religion and politics and maybe start

another

> > group where people can feel free to stick to Planet of the Apes?
> >
> > I think we actually need some ground rules (like the ones we have
> > about "OT" and going private at a certain point - which I
> certainly
> > have neglected to do recently!), an active moderator and to stop
> > going off track.
> >
> > And we could bansh non-contributing lurkers to the Forbidden Zone
> if
> > they continue to hang around too long (I think most of
> > these "lurkers" are just invalid email addresses and people who
> > couldn't be bothered de-registering).
> >
> > Thoughts please.
> >
> > Michael
>
>
>
>
>

>
>
>

TOTA is not really my cup of tea, but it is good to have you here to
tell us about it and why you like it.

Michael

--- "Menluth" <menluth@...> wrote:

>
> I have been a member of several on-line lists. They tend to go
> through similar periods of activity or inactivity, positive trends
> and negative ones. Personally, I don't mind moderators at all, even
> if they delete my own messages. But even when there is a moderator
> who decides to edit or delete inappropriate messages, they run the
> risk of getting negative or derogatory e-mails from the angry and
> intolerant types.
>
> A list works best when the quiet viewers participate as well. But
> harsh words, abusive language, racial generalizations, sexist
> remarks, or prolongued off-topic discussions will force them out
> before they ever get around to contributing. I have seen all of the
> above on this list within the past 2 weeks. With on-line groups,

the

> cryptic "please remove me from this list" is usually not a cry for
> computer help, but a much-too diplomatic way of saying "This isn't
> for me, so I'm out of here". This past week's loss of 9 POTA list
> members is probably not coincidental.
>
> Just my two cents' worth! (speaking of money, has anyone voted in
> that POTA money poll yet?)!
>
> Menluth.
>
> ��Check out the "Saru no Gundan - Time of the Apes" Yahoo mailing
> list on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sarunogundan !!
>
> --- In pota@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > I am wondering if it might be worth leaving this group to debate
> > unrelated aspects of religion and politics and maybe start

another

> > group where people can feel free to stick to Planet of the Apes?
> >
> > I think we actually need some ground rules (like the ones we have
> > about "OT" and going private at a certain point - which I
> certainly
> > have neglected to do recently!), an active moderator and to stop
> > going off track.
> >
> > And we could bansh non-contributing lurkers to the Forbidden Zone
> if
> > they continue to hang around too long (I think most of
> > these "lurkers" are just invalid email addresses and people who
> > couldn't be bothered de-registering).
> >
> > Thoughts please.
> >
> > Michael
>
>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.htmlI'm not talking about the one in BENEATH, they glyphed that one all up, but the one at the end of PLANET.  Where are the glyphs?

Man, that's a toughie!  Uhhh...the lapels?<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:06:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  Thank you for agreeing with Matt and myself. It's nice to see someone else agrees with us (funny post, too).

  Yeah, what's all this about Eminem being the next big movie star? I guess they're getting back what they lost from Reese's Pieces in "E.T.".  - - - Jeff



I don't think Eminem is going to be the next big star, but nowadays anyone whose movie makes a few bucks is suddenly "a star"!   Yeah, right.  It's like calling everything art, if you call anyone who is in a movie a star, then the term 'star' loses a lot of meaning.

-- Rory<.html

Attachments :

.htmlAnyone ever notice that the Lawgiver has the Chimp Glyph on his robe? Is it possible the Lawgiver that wrote the Sacred Scrolls was a Chimp?
<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/2002 9:13:57 PM Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

One thing I felt missing from the TV series was the Mutants. All the
humans that they encountered were those dominated by the Apes. I
really would of liked to have seen how they evolved into the society
shown in Beneath.

Agreed... Sad thing is they didn't let the series go on long enough for the fugitives to encounter any... See, now this is the type of discussion I'd like to see carry on in this group, and I think this (the Mutants) would be a good idea to "kick around"...<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:10:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

I think the big exoduses are when things get ugly (like
last night)

Could you please remind me what was ugly last night?  I seem to remember something about James having my picture on his mirror, but what did that amount to?

-- Rory<.html

.html

So do I.  I call them my e-friends.

I do to, but I argue with my friends too.  If I disagree with them.  And they know mw well enough that eventually I'll do a bit, or go off on a rant, or a screed.  But I don't mean anything by it.  It's just for a laugh. They know, and don't take it personally.

<.html

Damn I hate it when you feed me such an easy straight line.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> Could you please remind me what was ugly last night? I seem to
remember
> something about James having my picture on his mirror, but what
did that
> amount to?
>
> -- Rory

.html

Okay, now Cougar, James, Michael and T can go off and start another group.

I also never said I was going anywhere.  You're stuck with me pal!  So you'd better get used to it.<.html

Attachments :

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:11:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Let's enter Rory in the Olympic Long Conclusion Jump.

Enter this. . . .


I love using this photo, so just keep giving me the opportunities.

Thank you.

<.html

Crickets beat the hell out of some of the off topic crap posted here.

And they don't scare off good contributors.

--- <veetus@...> wrote:

> Guilty of what? When we stick to just POTA all you can hear is
> crickets. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <whitty@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] New Group?
>
>
> > We are all guilty of the same thing...it is just time to do

something

> > about it.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- LordTZer0@... wrote:
> > > However, I come here to discuss POTA, not politics or gun

control

> > laws or the
> > > weekend box office or even other
> > > SF films.
> > >
> > > I'm for that. Sorry for going off on tangents. When someone

asks

> > an OT
> > > question or slings monkey poop on some topic I actually have an
> > opinion on, I
> > > just can't resist.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.html

Enter this. . . .

Touched a nerve there.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:13:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, MTotsky@... writes:

Rory,

How did it make Detroit look? Was Eminem actually good?

Matt (who lives off of 13 Mile)

Detroit looked like hell.  One big slum.  I was thinking of you living there while I was watching it, but I know you don't live in a trailer.  But it was a fantasy.  I mean, Kim Basinger living in a trailer?  Show me which trailer!

Eminem was pretty good, but I doubt it was much of a stretch for him.

-- Rory<.html

Attachments :

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: JamesA1102@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:28 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Where's the Beef Glyphs?

Anyone ever notice that the Lawgiver has the Chimp Glyph on his robe? Is it possible the Lawgiver that wrote the Sacred Scrolls was a Chimp?

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:15:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

but I would prefer to belong to a POTA group that sticks
(generally) to the topic and does not scare off decent contributors.

Michael

Then go look at the movie and tell me where Dr. Z's glyphs are, you big baby!<.html

Yeah, poor Patrick. Lucky he's a good sport.

I think I'll go and catch the final day of the Ashes test.

Oh...it has already finished!

--- MTotsky@... wrote:

> I like the group the way it is. Sometimes the weekend posts get a

little out

> of hand, but it is never unmanagable. I don't mind the off topic

posts. I

> enjoy the tangents that talk about other films, DVDs etc (in fact I

was

> thinking about starting another list just dedicated to that. I

appreciate the

> opinions of people like Jeff and Rory in that area). The common

thread we

> have here is APES, but sometimes you can only talk about it so

much. I'm glad

> Brian is back from his sabbatical, because I've always enjoyed his

postings.

> It's OK to take a break and explore other things. If the tangent

goes off

> into something I don't care about, then I'll either delete or skip

the

> messages. But if something major in the APES world happens (the

passing of

> Kim Hunter for example) then this is where I want to be.
>
> The only thing I don't want to see here is flame wars. It just

drags the list

> down. Thankfully they have been kept to a minimum here. I think

Patrick takes

> too much abuse here. Some of the name calling is uncalled for. I

actually

> know Rory pretty well, so I know his sense of humor, but others I'm

not sure

> about (Whitty and Cougar have been guilty of that just this week).

It's a

> good thing he seems to be a good sport about it.
>
> I know I personally don't contribute as much as I did, but I do

enjoy the

> list and wouldn't think of leaving.
>
> My 2 cents...
>
> Matt

This is a cool idea!

I would like to see an APES series done in anthology style. Perhaps,
different story arcs that run for a few episodes. Since it's called PLANET of
the Apes, I have often wondered what's happening on the rest of the planet
instead just New York or California. We got Europe, Asia, Australia, South
America, etc. to explore. Perhaps different territories could have different
issues, problems, etc. Maybe each season could have different story arcs, but
they somehow tie together at the end.

I like the idea of mandrills, gibbons, baboons, etc. Since they are lower on
the primate totem pole, this could be another source of tension and conflict.
Maybe these different factions could join up with the humans to fight against
the oppressive apes to achieve their seperate goals. I don't know why others
(Rory, Cougar) are so opposed to this. It would be refreshing to see other
species done in the classics apes style. My favorite ape makeup in the Burton
film was Senator Nado, just because it was so "out there" and different than
anything that came before.

Good luck Brian!

Matt

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:15:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Did you forget the question there Professor Hawking?  My point was even though he knew he would lose, he fought anyway.  So he could live and die as a man.  Which brings up an interesting point.  Both Jesus and Spartacus were crucified.  But I think self-sacrifice is no less nobel a virtue than fighting for freedom.  Paradoxical, isn't it?

And where and when are you planing to start this living and dying as a man, T?

This argument has drifted rather off into the Twilight Zone, so I'm not commenting any further.  I'm just too bored.

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:28 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: New Group?

In a message dated 11/10/02 11:10:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

I think the big exoduses are when things get ugly (like
last night)

Could you please remind me what was ugly last night?  I seem to remember something about James having my picture on his mirror, but what did that amount to?

-- Rory
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Not sure what the other two represent but don't think they were seen
on anyone else in the films. There's another one below it (out of
the shot) that kind of looks like the Glyph on Dr. Maximus' coat.

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
> Oh, is that the chimp glyph? Do the other two glyphs represent
gorillas and orangs? Maybe they did put some thought into it. - - -
Jeff

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:24:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

TOTA is not really my cup of tea, but it is good to have you here to
tell us about it and why you like it.

Michael

Yeah, I have no problem with that, BUT. . . . he did say that he thinks it should be a candidate for consideration as POTA canon.  Them word's really make me go ape.

-- Rory<.html

Again, some good points here.

Can't say I agree with all, but nicely argued.

Michael

--- "Menluth" <menluth@...> wrote:

> There is so much that good writers could do with a new POTA TV
> series. My preference would be to base it on the characters of the
> original 2 films, but I think I could also handle something based

on

> the world of POTA 2001. It took me a while to get over my
> disappointment with Tim Burton's film, but after reading the first
> prequel novel (The Fall) and the 2 mini prequel novels based on the
> lives of young Ari, Attar, Thade, and Daena, I began to warm up to
> the idea that there are many good stories that could be developed
> based on the newer scenario.
>
> I agree that the "Underdwellers" would have been a great addition

to

> the POTA TV series. To me, the offer an important balance to POTA.
> In the TV series, the humans are always the "good guys", the
> underdogs. But in the films, we get a rather complex message that
> neither human nor ape are wholly good or bad. Much though I love
> POTA TV, it surely could not have gone on much longer without
> bringing out this aspect. A new series could certainly explore that.
>
> I'm not averse to seeing other species of primate showcased in some
> fashion. In POTA 2001, Krull refers to "monkeys" as being "lower on
> the evolutionary scale". Therefore, there must be some monkeys on
> his world. The French version of POTA 2001 translates that line
> as "macaques" (French not making a distinction between 'great ape'
> or monkey). And I think it was the "Ape City" comic series that
> featured baboonjas! Perhaps they could be made less ridiculous and
> used in some fashion.
>
>
> ------------------------ ---------------------

~-->

> Home Selling? Try Us!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/9_IolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

-~->

>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:25:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

I'm not talking about the one in BENEATH, they glyphed that one all up, but the one at the end of PLANET.  Where are the glyphs?

Man, that's a toughie!  Uhhh...the lapels?

Nope.<.html

Anthology series are notoriously hard to keep going. TV stations prefer
the safety net of regular characters. Gotta give 'em that if you want
innovations in other areas. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <MTotsky@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:38 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] New TV Series


> This is a cool idea!
>
> I would like to see an APES series done in anthology style. Perhaps,
> different story arcs that run for a few episodes. Since it's called PLANET
of
> the Apes, I have often wondered what's happening on the rest of the planet
> instead just New York or California. We got Europe, Asia, Australia, South
> America, etc. to explore. Perhaps different territories could have
different
> issues, problems, etc. Maybe each season could have different story arcs,
but
> they somehow tie together at the end.
>
> I like the idea of mandrills, gibbons, baboons, etc. Since they are lower
on
> the primate totem pole, this could be another source of tension and
conflict.
> Maybe these different factions could join up with the humans to fight
against
> the oppressive apes to achieve their seperate goals. I don't know why
others
> (Rory, Cougar) are so opposed to this. It would be refreshing to see other
> species done in the classics apes style. My favorite ape makeup in the
Burton
> film was Senator Nado, just because it was so "out there" and different
than
> anything that came before.
>
> Good luck Brian!
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:29:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Anyone ever notice that the Lawgiver has the Chimp Glyph on his robe? Is it possible the Lawgiver that wrote the Sacred Scrolls was a Chimp?

I don't think so.  (I like that photo of the Lawgiver.  Can you post it without the arrow on it?)

-- Rory<.html

Oh sorry, I didn't realise you and Jeff own this group.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 9:27:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> mlccougar@... writes:
>
>
> > In a message dated 11/10/2002 7:55:29 PM Central Standard Time,
> > JamesA1102@... writes:
> >
> >
> > >> Frankly, I agree with Michael. Although I am guilty myself,

I've

> >> tried to always put OT in the subject line and to keep off topic
> >> posts to a minimum. However, I come here to discuss POTA, not
> >> politics or gun control laws or the weekend box office or even

other

> >> SF films. There are groups, web sites and message boards that I

can

> >> go to for any of those topics.
> >
> > "Thank you" for your agreement with Whitty and myself... I have

posted on

> > this subject before, and it seems Whitty was the only one to

chime in with

> > any sort of agreement. It's good to see another person agrees

with us...

> >
> We are all guilty of the same thing...it is just time to do

something

> about it.
>
> Michael
>
>
> Okay, now Cougar, James, Michael and T can go off and start another

group.

> You know what I say?
> [Unable to display image]
> BYE! BYE! BYE! BYE!
>
> So, Jeff. . . . What do you think about "8 Mile" being #1 t this

weekend's

> boxoffice? I saw it today. It was pretty entertaining.
>
> -- Rory
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:35:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Crickets beat the hell out of some of the off topic crap posted here.

And they don't scare off good contributors.

I've just about had enough of you tonight, Whitty.  Are you at work?  If so, turn off the damn computer and get busy!

-- Rory<.html

Attachments :

.html--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:

> I don't think so.  (I like that photo of the Lawgiver.  Can you post it
> without the arrow on it?)
>
> -- Rory

Here you go.
<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:39:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, MTotsky@... writes:

I like the idea of mandrills, gibbons, baboons, etc. Since they are lower on
the primate totem pole, this could be another source of tension and conflict.
Maybe these different factions could join up with the humans to fight against
the oppressive apes to achieve their seperate goals. I don't know why others
(Rory, Cougar) are so opposed to this.

Because POTA is supposed to be about the planet of men.  You start bring in too many lesser primates and you might as well be doing "The New Zoo Revue."  Look at how silly the new movie was by making the apes act more like apes and not men?

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/2002 9:34:48 PM Central Standard Time, MTotsky@... writes:

Some of the name calling is uncalled for. I actually
know Rory pretty well, so I know his sense of humor, but others I'm not sure
about (Whitty and Cougar have been guilty of that just this week).  It's a
good thing he seems to be a good sport about it.

I will admit I did some "name calling", but I did it after I was provoked... I mean yes, I did call his idea "nonsense", but because of that, he thinks he can personally attack me?!? That's bull!!! You will notice though that he was FAR MORE SEVERE than I was in anything I said. He used profanity up the a** in his "attacks" on me, where as I "***'ed" it out... And then today he has the gall to critisize Whitty for using profanity?!? Did Patrick ever read his own posts? He uses more swear words than in a lot of movies these days. He should look at his own words before he accuses people of doing what he has done several times himself..

That said, I am willing to let the "war" I had with him go. There are a few things he and I do actually agree on, and I will try to focus on those. Today was a good example of where he and I do agree, the lack of female apes in the series is something that should be better looked at, and even discussed here in the group. Now our discussing it wouldn't change the lack of them in the films & tv series, but maybe it will give us something to discuss (hopefully rationally!)<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:41:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  There was post after post of one line insults. One of our contributers complained to me last night that things were getting too "vicious". As a matter of fact, they are one of the ones who walked out. - - - Jeff

And why don't you say who that was?   I don't know about you, but when I'm getting 'vicious' I'm having fun.  It was an insult contest!

-- Rory<.html

Very worthy project Rory.

I'll certainly send a similar letter.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 10:33:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> veetus@... writes:
>
>
> > In a month and a half it will be POTA's 40th anniversary year.

Hopefully

> > these rumors of a "5-star" DVD and an AMC thing are true.

Certainly the

> > Medicoms are going to keep coming. Let's make it a fun

anniversary. - - -

> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
> That reminds me. Here's a copy of a letter I'm going to start

mailing to Fox

> every month. Maybe some of you might want to copy it into your

word program,

> personalize it, and join me in making sure we get a 5 Star DVD of

PLANET, or

> maybe you's just rather wish there were mutants in a thirty-year-

old TV

> series?
>
>
>
> Michael Dunn, Exec. VP. Mktg. & Sales
> 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment Inc.
> 2121 Avenue of the Stars, 25th Floor
> Los Angeles, California 90067-5010
>
> Dear Sir:
>
> I'm writing to request that TCFHE give serious consideration to

doing a 5

> Star Collector's Edition of the original PLANET OF THE APES on DVD.
>
> As I'm sure you know, the current DVD edition of this classic Fox

film has a

> fine picture transfer, but was unfortunately done before your

company made

> the commitment to doing only anamorphic transfers. PLANET OF THE

APES

> enhanced for 16X9 displays is greatly desired by fans, and a

remastering of

> this popular title would also allow you to make digital

improvements to the

> movie's look on video. I also understand that mistakes were made

to the

> Dolby Digital 5.1 soundtrack remastering of PLANET OF THE APES that

resulted

> in poor stereo separation and a lack of the directional dialogue

Fox films

> from that era are famed for. I'm sure Fox can do a much better job

on the

> soundtrack for this film, and an improved DD 5.1 or DTS remix would

be a

> great selling point for a new 5 Star DVD edition.
>
> Your company has also made a commitment to the new D-VHS format,

but have yet

> to release any classic Fox titles. An improved transfer of the

original

> PLANET OF THE APES would certainly make for an exciting D-VHS

release. I

> would also hope that if you do decide to do a 5 Star DVD of APES

that you'll

> include the same kind of supplemental features that your other 5

Star

> editions have. Especially desired by me would be an interview

with Jerry

> Goldsmith on his landmark score, as well as the score on an

isolated track.

> Whatever outtakes or unused footage that may survive, and an

extensive photo

> gallery of behind-the-scenes shots would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I'd also like to request that you don't use the same cover art that

appeared

> on the 30th Anniversary release. The end of PLANET OF THE APES is

one of the

> greatest endings in film history. Although it may be well known,

there are

> some who haven't seen it. Why spoil it by putting it on the DVD

cover? I've

> always liked the original poster art. Perhaps you could return to

it.

>
> The year 2003 will mark the 35th Anniversary of the release of

PLANET OF THE

> APES and a 5 Star Edition DVD would certainly be a fitting tribute

to a great

> 20th Century Fox classic. Don't you agree?
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
> Rory Monteith
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:43:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Not sure what the other two represent but don't think they were seen
on anyone else in the films. There's another one below it (out of
the shot) that kind of looks like the Glyph on Dr. Maximus' coat

Don't you have the Medicom Lawgiver, James? (The glyphs are reproduced very well on it.)   Mine is always nearby, just in case I feel the need to pray for you!

-- Rory<.html

Hey T, it looks like Rory has put you on the defector list, so you
better change this title to "Jesus and Spartacus" I think...a good
title for a porno movie.

--- LordTZer0@... wrote:

> And what happens in the end to Spartacus, Mr. Einstein? You just

proved my

> point, genius.
>
> Did you forget the question there Professor Hawking? My point was

even

> though he knew he would lose, he fought anyway. So he could live

and die as

> a man. Which brings up an interesting point. Both Jesus and

Spartacus were

> crucified. But I think self-sacrifice is no less nobel a virtue

than

> fighting for freedom. Paradoxical, isn't it?
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:50:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Oh sorry, I didn't realise you and Jeff own this group.

Michael

We do, and you get a hold of that and hang onto it, or you might as well be dead!

-- Rory<.html

You didn't try to hit on him did you?

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 10:34:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> MTotsky@... writes:
>
>
> > The only thing I don't want to see here is flame wars. It just

drags the

> > list
> > down. Thankfully they have been kept to a minimum here. I think

Patrick

> > takes
> > too much abuse here. Some of the name calling is uncalled for. I

actually

> > know Rory pretty well, so I know his sense of humor, but others

I'm not

> > sure
> > about (Whitty and Cougar have been guilty of that just this

week). It's a

> > good thing he seems to be a good sport about it.
> >
> >
>
> Oh, I like getting it out of my system. I've privately contacted

Patrick and

> told him it's all a big joke. But he didn't respond. He probably

thinks I

> really am a bastard, but you know what? I don't care. It's all a

goof.

>
> -- Rory
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/02 11:53:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Here you go.

Thanks.  I've added it to my photo file.  Now, if I can figure out how to make the Statue hold up its middle finger. . . .<.html

Actually it's on the self above my computer. That's where I first
noticed the Chimp glyph on his robe. As far as the other glyphs he's
got I can't find matches on other apes in the films.

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> Don't you have the Medicom Lawgiver, James? (The glyphs are
reproduced very
> well on it.) Mine is always nearby, just in case I feel the need
to pray
> for you!
>
> -- Rory

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:58 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: New Group?

In a message dated 11/10/02 11:41:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  There was post after post of one line insults. One of our contributers complained to me last night that things were getting too "vicious". As a matter of fact, they are one of the ones who walked out. - - - Jeff

And why don't you say who that was?   I don't know about you, but when I'm getting 'vicious' I'm having fun.  It was an insult contest!

-- Rory

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/2002 10:06:48 PM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

 Thank you for agreeing with Matt and myself. It's nice to see someone else agrees with us (funny post, too).

Hey now, c'mon you two.... While I do agree with Whitty, and will continue to, my biggest complaint was and is the lack of marking a posting as OT...

Don't go banishing me to hell just yet....

<.html

And here is your change sir.

> > My 2 cents...

If a certain person was still a member, maybe they could tell us. But,
alas, they're not. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "james611102" <JamesA1102@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Where's the Beef Glyphs?


> Actually it's on the self above my computer. That's where I first
> noticed the Chimp glyph on his robe. As far as the other glyphs he's
> got I can't find matches on other apes in the films.
>
> --- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:
> > Don't you have the Medicom Lawgiver, James? (The glyphs are
> reproduced very
> > well on it.) Mine is always nearby, just in case I feel the need
> to pray
> > for you!
> >
> > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/11/02 12:04:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

You didn't try to hit on him did you?

No, I told him you already told me he was yours and I'd better back off or get my eyes scratched out by a mean, fat Aussie queen!<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/11/02 12:06:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

Actually it's on the self above my computer. That's where I first
noticed the Chimp glyph on his robe. As far as the other glyphs he's
got I can't find matches on other apes in the films.

No, neither can I.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/2002 10:12:17 PM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

That reminds me.  Here's a copy of a letter I'm going to start mailing to Fox every month.  Maybe some of you might want to copy it into your word program, personalize it, and join me in making sure we get a 5 Star DVD of PLANET, or maybe you's just rather wish there were mutants in a thirty-year-old TV series?

Let us not forget that I suggested you do that!!! I was impressed enough by your letter to tell you that you ought to share it with the group...<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/11/02 12:08:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

They didn't want to make a big deal about leaving and I guess it's none of my business to announce it. - - - Jeff

Was it Brian?<.html

I changed the subject line for you, guys, remember, like we all
democratically agreed we would so people who don't like the topic
could skip it?

Oh, did Jeff and Rory decide against?:) I guess we're out voted then.

I like Eminem. Some of the things he says ("Fuck your mama with a
tyre iron") are so over the top, but sorta cute in a way.

So what is a star? I guess it is someone who attracts a crowd, so
yes Eminem qualifies.

Jeff, you lost me on the "Reese's Pieces in "E.T.". " comment, please
explain.

So what is a star Rory? Are there stars who will NOT draw a crowd?
Or are there just good actors who are not stars and therefore do not
draw a crowd?

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 11:06:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> veetus@... writes:
>
>
> > Thank you for agreeing with Matt and myself. It's nice to see

someone else

> > agrees with us (funny post, too).
> > Yeah, what's all this about Eminem being the next big movie

star? I guess

> > they're getting back what they lost from Reese's Pieces

in "E.T.". - - -

> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
> I don't think Eminem is going to be the next big star, but nowadays

anyone

> whose movie makes a few bucks is suddenly "a star"! Yeah, right.

It's like

> calling everything art, if you call anyone who is in a movie a

star, then the

> term 'star' loses a lot of meaning.
>
> -- Rory
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/11/02 12:18:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

So what is a star Rory?  Are there stars who will NOT draw a crowd? 
Or are there just good actors who are not stars and therefore do not
draw a crowd?

Michael

<.html

Now this is the very reason I brought up the topic of the glyphs
(see, I DO contribute). I would LOVE to sit and compare them all one
day.

Could be that the Lawgiver has ALL glyphs on his robe because he
stands for all "apekind"

Again, anyone with the tech to capture all glyphs for comparison, let
me know.

Michael

--- JamesA1102@... wrote:

> Anyone ever notice that the Lawgiver has the Chimp Glyph on his

robe? Is it

> possible the Lawgiver that wrote the Sacred Scrolls was a Chimp?
> [Unable to display image]

Am I to take it this means you are speechless...?

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/11/02 12:18:49 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> whitty@... writes:
>
>
> > So what is a star Rory? Are there stars who will NOT draw a

crowd?

> > Or are there just good actors who are not stars and therefore do

not

> > draw a crowd?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/11/02 12:18:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

So what is a star Rory?  Are there stars who will NOT draw a crowd? 
Or are there just good actors who are not stars and therefore do not
draw a crowd?

Michael

A star is someone who does more than just draw a crowd.  They have a presence on the screen that allows them to carry whatever picture they are in, AND the true stars are those that have managed their image over a long line of movies.  We had real stars back in the old days.  We have damn few today. <.html

.htmlSo, nobody can say where Z's glyphs are on his last outfit in PLANET?

Okay, let's see who's the first tomorrow who has the answer.

-- Rory<.html

Don't waste your time with such insane, trivial on-topic subjects
Jeff!

--- <veetus@...> wrote:

> Oh, is that the chimp glyph? Do the other two glyphs represent

gorillas a

> nd orangs? Maybe they did put some thought into it. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JamesA1102@...
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 8:28 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Where's the Beef Glyphs?
>
>
> Anyone ever notice that the Lawgiver has the Chimp Glyph on his

robe? Is

> it possible the Lawgiver that wrote the Sacred Scrolls was a Chimp?
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>

It is 4:30 PM and I am at work until I finish overtime at 8:30 PM.

I will get home in time to give the twins their final feed and make
bottles, dinner for myself and go to bed at around 11pm (hoping all
the time that the kids don't wake up).

I'll just have to get back to you on that one Rory.

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 11:15:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> whitty@... writes:
>
>
> > but I would prefer to belong to a POTA group that sticks
> > (generally) to the topic and does not scare off decent

contributors.

> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
>
> Then go look at the movie and tell me where Dr. Z's glyphs are, you

big baby!

>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/2002 10:24:45 PM Central Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

I'm not talking about the one in BENEATH, they glyphed that one all up, but the one at the end of PLANET.  Where are the glyphs?

There are none on the shirt...<.html

Me too.

But I think step one is to decide if you want to think the TV Series
is sipposed to fit in with the movies or be an "alternative POTA
universe" thing, or maybe even an "alternative timeline" thing.

This would have to be the place to start.

For example, I think I can say that Patrick would want it to fit in
as a prequel series to the movies.

Also, where is it set? East Coast? West Coast?

If we get stuck on the basics we can always come back to them.

Ken Taylor always reminds me of "The Disc" sub plot...remember the
disc they got from a computer (then lost it)?

This would make for a recurring theme a la X-Files (a point Jeff made
I totally agreed with).

Michael

-- mlccougar@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/2002 9:13:57 PM Central Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
>
> > One thing I felt missing from the TV series was the Mutants. All

the

> > humans that they encountered were those dominated by the Apes. I
> > really would of liked to have seen how they evolved into the

society

> > shown in Beneath.
>
> Agreed... Sad thing is they didn't let the series go on long enough

for the

> fugitives to encounter any... See, now this is the type of

discussion I'd

> like to see carry on in this group, and I think this (the Mutants)

would be a

> good idea to "kick around"...
>

M & M were approached first to be E.T.'s favorite candy in the movie. They
turned it down, so Reese's Pieces were in the movie and saw a big sales
boon. Just a little humor. AH HA HA HA!

There are those who say Eminem is misunderstood by those who only have
heard the criticism, so I don't know enough to comment. Our own Mark
Wahlberg is a rapper turned actor, so once again it's what projects he
chooses. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: <whitty@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:17 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Eminem a Movie Star (OT)


> I changed the subject line for you, guys, remember, like we all
> democratically agreed we would so people who don't like the topic
> could skip it?
>
> Oh, did Jeff and Rory decide against?:) I guess we're out voted then.
>
> I like Eminem. Some of the things he says ("Fuck your mama with a
> tyre iron") are so over the top, but sorta cute in a way.
>
> So what is a star? I guess it is someone who attracts a crowd, so
> yes Eminem qualifies.
>
> Jeff, you lost me on the "Reese's Pieces in "E.T.". " comment, please
> explain.
>
> So what is a star Rory? Are there stars who will NOT draw a crowd?
> Or are there just good actors who are not stars and therefore do not
> draw a crowd?
>
> Michael
>
> --- Haristas@... wrote:
> > In a message dated 11/10/02 11:06:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > veetus@... writes:
> >
> >
> > > Thank you for agreeing with Matt and myself. It's nice to see
> someone else
> > > agrees with us (funny post, too).
> > > Yeah, what's all this about Eminem being the next big movie
> star? I guess
> > > they're getting back what they lost from Reese's Pieces
> in "E.T.". - - -
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I don't think Eminem is going to be the next big star, but nowadays
> anyone
> > whose movie makes a few bucks is suddenly "a star"! Yeah, right.
> It's like
> > calling everything art, if you call anyone who is in a movie a
> star, then the
> > term 'star' loses a lot of meaning.
> >
> > -- Rory
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well hang on a second...let's see how he explains it first.

Maybe he is saying at some time period that's what the Jap apes were
doin'.

Explain, Menluth!

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 11:24:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> whitty@... writes:
>
>
> > TOTA is not really my cup of tea, but it is good to have you here

to

> > tell us about it and why you like it.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
>
> Yeah, I have no problem with that, BUT. . . . he did say that he

thinks it

> should be a candidate for consideration as POTA canon. Them word's

really

> make me go ape.
>
> -- Rory
>

Nah, post it with the Lawgiver waving for the big baby!

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 11:29:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> JamesA1102@... writes:
>
>
> > Anyone ever notice that the Lawgiver has the Chimp Glyph on his

robe? Is it

> > possible the Lawgiver that wrote the Sacred Scrolls was a Chimp?
> >
>
> I don't think so. (I like that photo of the Lawgiver. Can you

post it

> without the arrow on it?)
>
> -- Rory
>

Dude, I'd RATHER be dead!

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/02 11:50:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> whitty@... writes:
>
>
> > Oh sorry, I didn't realise you and Jeff own this group.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
>
> We do, and you get a hold of that and hang onto it, or you might as

well be

> dead!
>
> -- Rory
>

.html

And where and when are you planing to start this living and dying as a man, T?

I'm probably dying right now.  As we all are from the moment we're born.  Tell you what Rory, I'll race you.  You first.<.html

.html

One of our contributers complained to me last night that things were getting too "vicious".

Vicious?  How rude. 
If they can't take our good natured ribbing then good riddance I say.<.html

On the back of his neck?

--- mlccougar@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/10/2002 10:24:45 PM Central Standard Time,
> LordTZer0@... writes:
>
>
> > I'm not talking about the one in BENEATH, they glyphed that one

all up, but

> > the one at the end of PLANET.
>
> There are none on the shirt...
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/10/2002 10:54:53 PM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

"The New Zoo Revue." 

They learn with their friend Doc, and his helper Emmy Jo.<.html

Ok - I didn't get the Reese's Pieces reference because they don't
sell those down this way. Thanks for not sending me on a research
mission when you have an answer on hand.

EMEINEM is not misunderstood...he uses violence to opose it. He is a
walking contradiction (as most of us are) and has a sick sense of
humour (like me). He likes to shock, or he would tone it down. He
shouldn't go around threatening to kill people as a solution to
problems but again where does the image machine end and reality begin?

--- <veetus@...> wrote:

> M & M were approached first to be E.T.'s favorite candy in the

movie. They

> turned it down, so Reese's Pieces were in the movie and saw a big

sales

> boon. Just a little humor. AH HA HA HA!
>
> There are those who say Eminem is misunderstood by those who only

have

> heard the criticism, so I don't know enough to comment. Our own Mark
> Wahlberg is a rapper turned actor, so once again it's what projects

he

> chooses. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <whitty@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:17 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Eminem a Movie Star (OT)
>
>
> > I changed the subject line for you, guys, remember, like we all
> > democratically agreed we would so people who don't like the topic
> > could skip it?
> >
> > Oh, did Jeff and Rory decide against?:) I guess we're out voted

then.

> >
> > I like Eminem. Some of the things he says ("Fuck your mama with a
> > tyre iron") are so over the top, but sorta cute in a way.
> >
> > So what is a star? I guess it is someone who attracts a crowd, so
> > yes Eminem qualifies.
> >
> > Jeff, you lost me on the "Reese's Pieces in "E.T.". " comment,

please

> > explain.
> >
> > So what is a star Rory? Are there stars who will NOT draw a

crowd?

> > Or are there just good actors who are not stars and therefore do

not

> > draw a crowd?
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- Haristas@... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 11/10/02 11:06:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > veetus@... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > Thank you for agreeing with Matt and myself. It's nice to

see

> > someone else
> > > > agrees with us (funny post, too).
> > > > Yeah, what's all this about Eminem being the next big movie
> > star? I guess
> > > > they're getting back what they lost from Reese's Pieces
> > in "E.T.". - - -
> > > > Jeff
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't think Eminem is going to be the next big star, but

nowadays

> > anyone
> > > whose movie makes a few bucks is suddenly "a star"! Yeah,

right.

> > It's like
> > > calling everything art, if you call anyone who is in a movie a
> > star, then the
> > > term 'star' loses a lot of meaning.
> > >
> > > -- Rory
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
>
>

.html

That said, I am willing to let the "war" I had with him go.

"Or if he should get struck by a bolt of lightning, than I'm going to blame some of the people in this room.  But that aside, I swear on my grandchildren, that I will not be the one to break the peace we've made here today."

Well, you're all getting off easy.  I have some Japanese to study.  So, I'll have to let anything that follows slide for the moment.  <.html

Oh boy, I actually read it.

Ok Patrick, back to basics.

I said I can relate to the outrage of our natives, I did not say
there was a solution. I would suggest that I have learned the lesson
that I would (to say the least) elicit a negative emotion from anyone
if I dared to suggest a fantasy scenario which involved renaming
their country with my country's name. I just explained this to my 7
year old and she understood it. Forgive me for wondering about the
reasons you don't understand my point.

Michael


--- <veetus@...> wrote:

> Patrick, you did say in a post about a week ago about your

health not

> being 100% but that was none of my business asking about it.
> My opinion is, what's done is done. There's been plenty 'o

tragedy in the

> past, but those who are alive today who weren't directly involved

in it

> should get on with their lives. Just as there's a movement that

descendants

> of slaves in America should be paid reparations by the government.

Hogwash!

> I can see reparations for Holocaust victims because that's the

recent past.

> But for 2 centuries ago? As for the aborigines (and the American

Indians),

> we live in a modern world. None of us chose the world we live in. I

believe

> in freedom and there should be room for people to live like their

ancestors

> if they choose. But enough of this "My land! Gimme, gimme, gimme!"

Look at

> what's going on in the Middle East. I reflect back on something

George Lucas

> said in a speech at the Oscars in tribute to director Akira

Kurosawa, saying

> the theme of his films is "Why can't people be happier together?"

I'd like

> to buy the world a Coke. - - - Jeff
>
> P.S.: I think Whitty referred to the lynchings and stuff in the

South

> post -Civil War (indeed, post-19th Century), not freeing the slaves

so they

> could hunt them like hares. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 7:22 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] MW's Inability to Make a Reasoned

Argument,

> Resorting to Expletive-laced Insults
>
>
> > --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > You worry me sometimes (OK, OFTEN!) Patrick.
> > >
> > > No I don't think all Brit-descended Aussies should "pack up"

and go back

> to the UK, leaving the entire continent of Australia to the

descendants of

> those who were conquered/pushed aside. Nor do the Aboriginals

(generally

> speaking).
> >
> > *** So what DO you suggest should be the "solution" to the

Aborigine

> > situation? You "feel" their pain, like Clinton's famous phrase,

but

> > what GOOD does that do without a policy to act on to remedy the
> > situation? It's like feeling sorry that some emaciated child in
> > Ethiopia is starving to death... all the while standing next to

him or

> > her and eating a sandwich. A lot of good your feeling sorry does

for

> > him/her! Feeling sorry doesn't solve any problems unless you ACT

on

> > that feeling. If you don't think the "conquered" Aborigines

should be

> > given the land back, then WHAT should be done INSTEAD?
> >
> > > Do you think all Americans should pack up and go home? You

really are a

> fucking freak.
> >
> > *** No, I do NOT think all Americans should leave America--where

the

> > hell did you get that idea? I asked IF YOU THOUGHT THAT BRIT-

DESCENDED

> > AUSSIES SHOULD LEAVE AUSTRALIA as ONE POSSIBLE "REMEDY" FOR THE
> > ABORIGINE COMPLAINTS. I never said that the Brit-Aussies SHOULD

leave:

> > I asked if YOU thought that, you moron! I don't hold you (i.e. the
> > current generation of Aussies) responsible for the actions of your
> > ancestors; neither do I feel any personal guilt regarding the
> > treatment of Native Americans by the ancestors of the current
> > generation of Americans. When I posed my question to you, it was

meant

> > (as any rational person would realize) as a RHETORICAL question.

Since

> > a "Yes" answer is OBVIOUSLY impractical and impracticable, you

should

> > have figured out that WHATEVER answer you might have to remedy the
> > situation should be coughed up and explained (i.e. "IF Aussies

should

> > NOT leave Australia, then what SHOULD they do?").
> >
> > > What's your point about slavery? Are you saying Americans are

superior

> to Aussies because you "freed" slaves so you could hunt them down

and lynch

> them? Because you blew the fuck out of each other and at the last

minute

> decided to claim the Civil War was to free the slaves? Fuck off

idiot.

> >
> > *** I didn't say that Americans are superior to Aussies, you

jerk! I

> > pointed out that AFTER the Civil War (in which a higher

percentage of

> > the population was killed off fighting over--among several things-

-the

> > issue of Slavery, than in any other war America has ever fought),

one

> > of the remedies that was put forth AND ACTED UPON was the

repatriation

> > of former slaves to their mother continent, in a NEW nation called
> > "Liberia" in honor of that new Liberty for which hundreds of

thousands

> > of non-slaves gave up their lives. For you to suggest that the

white

> > Union soldiers "freed" the slaves so that they "could hunt them

down

> > and lynch them" is a slander only a complete fool would belch out

of

> > his pie hole. That's like saying that MacDonald (in CONQUEST) lets
> > Caesar go, after their revelatory conversation in that cylindrical
> > tunnel, just so that he could be hunted down.
> >
> > America INHERITED a society which had institutionalized slavery
> > CENTURIES earlier--and it took the loss of AMERICAN lives (in the
> > Civil War) to BEGIN to put an end to that wretched institution.

One of

> > the GOOD things to come out of Christianity was the anti-slavery
> > movement, fought with fanatic tenacity by John Brown (et al.)--

albeit

> > Deists like Benjamin Franklin a century earlier pioneered the

moral

> > stand against that "peculiar institution" (as genteel southerners

used

> > to call it). It was impossible for America's founders to eradicate
> > Slavery when they were making their separation from the Empire of
> > Great Britain (though NOT for lack of trying, since the first

draft of

> > Jefferson's "Declaration" called for an end to slavery; in order

to

> > FIRST achieve Independence, the anti-slavery faction had to

compromise

> > on the Slavery issue... but AFTER establishing "a new nation,
> > conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all

men

> > are created equal", THEN the anti-slavery forces got to work
> > marginalizing the practice of Slavery, to the point where the

Southern

> > states rebelled against the "attack" on their economic

foundation. The

> > Civil War WAS about Slavery, you dolt! The ONLY real difference
> > between the Confederate Constitution and the U.S. Constitution

was the

> > attempt to enshrine the institution of Slavery for

the "Confederate

> > States of America"--that was the issue that the South fought the

North

> > over. You are under the boneheaded belief that the North & the

South

> > "blew the fuck out of each other" for WHAT? For NO reason at all?

Just

> > for the fun of it? And then "at the last minute" CLAIMED they'd

fought

> > the war in order to free the slaves? What a load of horseshit!
> >
> > > Yes it is a touchy subject Patrick and you can expect the same

reaction

> from any Aussie you tell your stupid story to. They will

say "Typical

> ignorant fuck who thinks the answer to everything is re-naming it

New

> America".
> >
> > > And that's where I stopped reading your idiotic post. You like

the

> conflict, so rather than fuel your hard-on, I'll go back to

deleting your

> posts just like many other members of this group who would be a lot

happier

> if you would "pack up" and go back to the real world.
> >
> > *** Ah, you claim--yet again--to speak on behalf of "many other
> > members of this group"... li