.html

Is it killing you to be in the "new" group?

Oh, sorry about the rant.
I thought you said IT IS, instead of IS IT.
Dyslexia Lures!  KO!
<.html

.htmlThe thing is, some people like Patrick's posts.

I like a lot of Patrick's post.  He just has a tendency to type faster than I can read.  Even Patrick will admit he has a tendency to be verbose and very...detailed.  I for one wish when he's making a post of several pages, he'd break it up into a few separate posts -- if that wouldn't interrupt his flow.  I'd get more out of them anyway.<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 14:54
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] The Group Speaks

T,

 
Is it killing you to be in the "new" group?
 
Michael

I don't know what you're talking about.  I am in the new group.  I don't find it particularly more interesting, or boring, than this group.  I actually enjoyed one of Pat's posts for a change.  POTA Nazi?  No, I think you're more of a POTA Commie. Not that I have anything against you.  As we say in the Punk Rock biz, Fuck a bunch of rules!  Why regulate everything?  It's Cyberspace!  The Final Frontier!  It is a shame though that some people stray so far off, or drag out petty squabbles, that they have to be reminded that this is a POTA group -- but so be it.  I think you take it all a little too seriously.  But you're not the only one.  I don't care if I get kicked out of both groups.  I may save you the trouble an unsubscribe from both.  I have more to do than sifting through a bunch or two line flames, or a bunch of on-topic posts that either make wild speculation of arcane plot points on a loosely written fiction, or don't have an



T
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

I know what you mean, I have the same turmoil when I think of life without
Patrick's posts, so I stay in both groups (I get real excited when there are
days on end without Patrick posts, coz I know that all those days are filled
with him researching and typing the next one!).

Should you be denied the posts???...NO WAY! I don't know how you
interpreted that to be my intention, but whatever. Unless of course they
make you ill, then of course you should deny yourself (like cheap
wine....don't deny yourself, then you get a headache).

I really don't get the comparison to commercial TV....but when the
alternative is a foreign language channel with some dude trying to break the
record for typing the longest post in the world and boring everybody's
titties off (the content of which could be summarised in a 5 second comedy
skit, but won't be coz he don't wanna), I'LL CHOOSE TO WATCH THE SIMPSONS ON
COMMERCIAL TV!!!

There's also enough Chinese Food in the real world, BUT YOU GOTTA LOVE IT!!!
Are you saying you would rather a bucket of noodles that 5 lovely, well
presented, aromatic courses of Chinese food.....because there's enough well
presented, aromatic Chinese food in the world????

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 17:52
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick
>
>
> The thing is, some people like Patrick's posts. Sometimes I'm not in the
> mood and save them for later, but I read them. For those who delete them,
> that's a valid choice. But should I be denied the posts because some don't
> like them, even if it's a majority? Sounds like commercial TV to me, or
> lowest common denominator, and we get enough of that in the "real
> world". - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 1:08 PM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick
>
>
> > These were suggested rules and are yet to be voted on and set
> in concrete.
> >
> > The suggestion came from a scientific, statistical analysis of the
> > identified problems with the "old" group.
> >
> > Some stated they did not like your posts and I sought clarification. I
> did
> > not think it was good enough - it is like saying you don't like
> a person,
> > but do not know why, and allowing yourself to get away with it (not good
> > enough).
> >
> > On further investigation, it developed that you turn people off
> with your
> > long postings (ie they scroll down, see the length of it and delete it).
> > First impressions - sad, but true.
> >
> > Have you heard the term "user-friendly"? That's what common
> people want.
> >
> > Also, requiring a dictionary, a degree, a spellchecker and an
> interpreter
> > and a lot of patience to read a post is not a "turn-on".
> >
> > So when the group throws around some way to invite you into an
> environment
> > where you know what is expected of you and the consequences of making
> others
> > suffer, we'll let you know and you can choose.
> >
> > I felt it unfair that you missed out on the blueprints I
> laboured around 4
> > hours of scanning at your request, so I sent them to you privately.
> >
> > The intention was to include you at the right time.
> >
> > Your behaviour in this group makes me wonder why I bothered.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 5:37
> > > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Silence of the Clams
> > > there! Even Albina looked pretty hot before her mask came off!
> > >
> > > You said, didn't you Mike, that the members of your new group
> joined up,
> > in part, in order to "get away" from me (and, presumably, other
> unwelcome
> > folks over here, like Rory) and my "too long" posts, right? And
> right off
> > the bat the "rules" you and James (and whoever) cook up put the
> LENGTH of
> > the desired posts as a major criterion which will get potential members
> > either "talked to" (warned) first and ultimately kicked out if
> they don't
> > tow the line. In other words, amidst all those cheery
> "welcome!" messages,
> > there's none planned for ME, right?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

>
>

Yeah, I totally agree, but it was a private to Patrick (who probably went
all hard when he saw the length of mine...no pun intended), and if you had
read it you would have got in the content that I did try to very calmly sort
things out with the guy.

He obviously prefers the cyber-stage so that's his choice, but next time
anybody wants to go pointing the finger, you'll know where to point it.

Anyone would think that you are trying to bait me Jeff.

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 17:58
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Boring
>
>
> That e-mail was too long, Michael, so I deleted it. - - - Jeff

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 18:19
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] The Group Speaks

Is it killing you to be in the "new" group?

Oh, sorry about the rant.
I thought you said IT IS, instead of IS IT.
Dyslexia Lures!  KO!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:50
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick

The thing is, some people like Patrick's posts.

I like a lot of Patrick's post.  He just has a tendency to type faster than I can read.  Even Patrick will admit he has a tendency to be verbose and very...detailed.  I for one wish when he's making a post of several pages, he'd break it up into a few separate posts -- if that wouldn't interrupt his flow.  I'd get more out of them anyway.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 18:19
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] The Group Speaks

Is it killing you to be in the "new" group?

Oh, sorry about the rant.
I thought you said IT IS, instead of IS IT.
Dyslexia Lures!  KO!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:50
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick

The thing is, some people like Patrick's posts.

I like a lot of Patrick's post.  He just has a tendency to type faster than I can read.  Even Patrick will admit he has a tendency to be verbose and very...detailed.  I for one wish when he's making a post of several pages, he'd break it up into a few separate posts -- if that wouldn't interrupt his flow.  I'd get more out of them anyway.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.htmlPatrick's posts
This is one of the things I like about this group.  A little OT time space theory discussion isn't frowned upon.  Anywho . . . I'm afraid I'm going to have to encourage another one.  I just saw this show on the Dark Force.  You know . . . Einstein's Cosmic Constant.  See if you look at all the matter in the Universe, it should add up to 1, but it doesn't.  Even if you include dark matter, it only adds up to about 1/3. But there's the Dark Force.  That dark energy in the void that not only makes the Universe expand, but accelerate, in spite of the gravitational forces.  See, space is flat.  If it was curved, either convexly or concavely, then parallel lines in space would eventually either separate or converge, but they don't. It seems to me that Patrick had a different take on this than the rest of the real brain boxes here on Earth.  But I can't recall what it was.   What are your thoughts Patrick?<.html

.htmlNow let's shoot some roos and go for a beer, OK?

Sorry, I don't hunt.  I know that sounds kind of eco for a gun collector.  But I gave up hunting when I was a kid.  Oh I might shoot a Caribou if I ever got the chance.  They make great sausage.  But come to think of it, almost anything does.  And if you season it enough, you can hardly tell the difference -- even vegetable protein.  But I'd never shoot a roo.  I might box one.  I hear they're pretty handy with their dukes.  But eat one?  Nah, I swore them off when Jack-In-The Box quit buying Australian Beef.<.html

.htmlOh yeah, are you concerned about the types of kids Rory and Patrick are going to have?
 
READ IT CAREFULLY T!

Nope, not following that one at all.
What does that have to do with me reading stuff backwards?
Clarity Rules, OK!<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/23/02 5:22:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

A little OT time space theory discussion isn't frowned upon. 

Yeah, I actually want Patrick to explain that "the speed of light minus epsilon" thing again.  I tend to forget the details over the course of time.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/23/02 5:33:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Oh yeah, are you concerned about the types of kids Rory and Patrick are going to have?

 


I'm having trouble believing a certain wacko here is actually a parent.<.html

*** "At least HALF..." It's called HYPERBOLE, Mike. After wading
through 320 posts straight, with no intermission, the impression I
get is that an inordinate amount of them are by YOU concerning the
little "rules" that you want your group to abide by ("OR ELSE!"); the
same sorts of rules that you would have looooved to enforce at THIS
site, had you been the moderator here from the get-go.

Here's ONE statistic, Mike, that should make those little tiny hairs
on the back of peoples' necks stand up: in less than 300 posts on
your new "democratic" group you've managed to excommunicate one
member... and after over 25,000 posts on THIS site NOT ONE PERSON HAS
BEEN THROWN OUT. Even YOU are allowed to still post here--and I
wouldn't have it any other way (as long as you don't use this site as
your garbage dump for off-topic posts, as you earlier threatened to
do). Yesterday, you chimed in, in response to T's comment about
lurkers being voted out of your group, that the votes hadn't been
counted yet (or something to that effect); tell me, Mike... did Rory
get evicted from your new site after a democratic vote? Did all 12
members get to see his "horrific" post and, like the proverbial "12
angry men" (and women), give him either the "thumbs-up" or
the "thumbs-down"? As I recall, only ONE person got to decide whether
or not Rory got to stay there: YOU. You assured your other members
that Rory's post was soooo "flame-warring" that you just HAD to give
him the axe... and then, to justify your unilateral decision, you
trotted out some PERSONAL beef you had with him (the "Simpsons" tapes
issue) to buttress your actions.
It's hardly "democratic", Mike. "One man, one vote." Yeah... YOU are
the "one man" who gets to cast that one vote, and your groupies over
there just have to shrug their shoulders and hope that it doesn't
reflect badly on them when you "speak/act on behalf of" that group.

"POTA-Nazi" is a term that accurately encapsulates your conduct over
there.
One person evicted during the first 300 posts. At this rate, in about
3600 more posts your group will be down to just one: YOU! Be careful,
Mike... better not piss yourself off, or you'll have to throw
YOURSELF out of your own group, and THAT would be utterly TRAGIC!

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> My statistics (that I compile daily) are completely different to
your.
>
> However, I invited you in a private email to identify the following
on THIS group and compile the appropriate statistics into relevant
sub-headings to clear up for you the reason I identified an issue
with off-topic posts:
>
> ..."the OCCASIONAL chat on "your" group is ABOUT Planet of the
Apes. I could be wrong here, but you are a scientist so compile the
statistics for the last month and categorise into: Flame Wars, Smart
ass Comments, Ridiculing Patrick (I have been guilty too, but I am
ashamed of myself, not proud of it and dismissing it with "all-in-
fun" lies), Freeze Frames from the Movie, Hollywood Reports,
Insults, Profanities, ramblings by T...need I go on? Now, the
reaction to my identifying these problems (as a result of valuable
people like Brian and Helen leaving the group in disgust) was to
suggest a better way where we could encourage more POTA talk and less
stupid dribble from Rory and T (and me). If that makes me a Nazi
the "Hial (spelling?) Hitler".
>
> Your post here is not really analysing true etatitics, it is lying
to encourage further flaming.
>
> By the way, the "little" offshot group has 12 contributing members -
suppose that makes this group a "tiny" burnt out group? I think the
true statistics speak for themselves.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 5:37
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Silence of the Clams
> >
> > Good God (not that there IS one, but I say it as an expletive)!
but I just waded through the 320 posts on your little offshoot POTA-
DG site, and what do I see? At least HALF of the posts there are
about the "rules" and whether or not "lurkers" should be "dealt with"
via warnings and the like.

*** This group did NOT send him--or anybody else--"packing". If he
left, it was because he didn't want to be here and, thus, departed of
his own free will.
And the whole point of this displeasure with "flame wars", I thought,
was that nobody in YOUR group approved of it... but I can see that
what you guys REALLY mean is that you don't want to flame each other,
but flaming those of us who prefer to remain at THIS site is just
fine and dandy. So Brian uses a pejorative term (NOT directed at any
of his fellow group members over there, but directed at US over
HERE), and NOT ONE SINGLE SYLLABLE OF DISAPPROVAL ISSUES FORTH FROM
THE MOUTHS OF YOU GUYS, who are supposedly "fed up" with the flame
wars. The old adage is that "silence means consent": that means that
YOUR silence in the wake of his reference to us as "uglies" implies
that you guys APPROVE of such pejoratives directed at those who
aren't in your precious inner circle.

If you, Brian, are reading this, then I have just one thing to say to
you: YOU are free to resume/continue posting messages over on this
site, because NOBODY on this site has ever been kicked out, for ANY
reason. We don't have Adolf Whitler over here to unilaterally send
anybody out to "the forbidden zone". ANYBODY can join up here and
contribute, without fear of being jettisoned by der fuhrer. As long
as you aren't posting kiddie porn pics, or crap like that (which, we
all know, is ILLEGAL), you need never fear excommunication from Pope
Mike.

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> That was Brian, remember him? Your group sent him packing.
>
> Take it up with him.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 5:37
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Silence of the Clams
>
> > Talk about "flame wars"--it was nice to see a not-so-covert
reference to THIS group as "uglies" by one of your members.

--- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:

>
> I'll respond to this later but in the meantime can you elaborate

further on this?

*** I get so much guff (from Mike, mostly) that my posts are "too
long", and that some people just can't bring themselves to read a
post that ain't one sentence long or so. It is for THIS reason that
Mike "neglected" to extend an invitation my way to join his new
group, who all (or, most of whom) wanted to "get away from" me,
supposedly.
This post, below, is all on-topic POTA discussion, and it's a little
longer than my average. I thought I went into enough depth with it,
and that it didn't NEED any more elaboration. But if there are
particular portions of it you'd like me to elaborate on, point 'em
out, and I'll be glad to give it the ol' college try.

Patrick

P.S. Or, were you just B.S.-ing me?

>
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Is there a "god" in the fictional POTA universe, as there is

in the "Lord of the Rings" universe? Absolutely NOT. At the end of

> > >
> > > I think this is true only if you look at the first two movies.

The last three movies do contain hints that a "god" character exists
in the fictional POTA universe, although certainly not the one Zaius
is the Chief Defender of in PLANET.

> > >
> > >
> > > > BENEATH, the planet Earth "is now dead". Not "mostly dead"...

not "partially still breathing"... it's DEAD. Would a "god" ("...if
there IS a god...") sit idly by and allow His precious creation--the
planet and all those whom He had created in His image--to be

> > >
> > >
> > > God DIDN'T allow the Earth to be destroyed. The latter three

movies parallel the New Testament in which God sent Caesar/Christ to
save the Earth from Aldo's/Adam's Original Sin. There are
Caesar/Christ parallels in BATTLE, ESCAPE, and as you yourself once
pointed out to me, in CONQUEST too. The presence of a Christ-like
character in the POTA universe implies the presence of an unseen God
character. Caesar's whole purpose in life was to stop Aldo's Original
Sin and thereby prevent at the original source the whole chain of
events that led to the Earth's destruction in BENEATH. God
accomplished this not by suspending free will (except for Milo maybe)
but by sending a saviour in the right place at the right time.

> > >
> > >
> > > And Then God sent the world a Saviour...
> > > -The Lawgiver
> > >
> > > The Lawgiver's quote is the whole key to understanding what

happened in BATTLE. God sent "the world" a saviour, not the apes a
saviour. God didn't need to send Caesar to save the apes, because
Aldo would have done that anyway. Caesar was sent by God to literally
save "the world".

> > >
> > > Maybe the real Christ also started an altered timeline, and

maybe in the real world the Earth was also destroyed in the original
timeline.

> >
> > *** You have an interesting "take" on this topic, although I must

say that I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. The "Ape-
onauts" were not sent back in Time by God--the destruction of the
Earth (via Taylor's detonation of the Doomsday Bomb) created
the "tornado in the sky" which somehow caused the Timewarp through
which those 3 chimps travelled from 3955 to 1973. Just flying that
ANSA ship into orbit didn't get them on a Retro-timewarp--they needed
the Earth to be blown to bits by the Alpha Omega bomb to create the
warpage of spacetime (the "shockwave" Milo mentions) which sends them
back to their Past. God doesn't "save the World" by first (?)
destroying it in the dead-end Future of 3955: that would make God out
to be the equivalent of the Vietnam-era soldiers who "had to destroy
the village in order to save it"!
The Lawgiver's quote also says that the "savior" was "miraculously
born". This is a misrepresentation of the truth, a kind of lie.
Sure, "Baby Milo"/"Caesar" is conceived in the 40th Century and born
in the 20th Century, but only because of the Man-made "miracle" of
the Timewarp experienced by the Ape-onauts, a "miracle" which happens
as a result of Taylor's detonation of the Earth-destroying Bomb. Yet
there was NOTHING truly "miraculous" about Caesar's birth; amazing,
yes, but NOT a miracle.

> >
> > Is Caesar a "Christ" figure? To a certain degree, yes. That is,

both Caesar and Christ (and about a hundred other mythic personages)
have a life-pattern which is echoed throughout the mythic literature
of the world. There's something about their Birth that is
extraordinary (like Christ's incarnation from a Male God impregnating
a Female Virgin Human, or Aeneas being the son of the goddess
Aphrodite/Venus and the mortal man Anchises)... just as Caesar's
birth literally predates his conception (due to Dehn's ingenious use
of the science fictional "timewarp").

> > But is there anything SUPERNATURAL in the Caesar story? Nope. The

gospels portray Christ as literally dying on the Cross; the "Aeneid"
has Aeneas literally descending into the pagan Underworld with the
Golden Bough to talk with the ghost of his father; but Caesar's
science fictional variation on these mythic prototypes are NOT
supernatural/magical/divine. When Caesar "dies" on the shock-table
(in CONQUEST: "...but I saw you DIE!"), he doesn't literally lose his
life and then resurrect from the dead: MacDonald covertly cut the
power to the shock-table and Caesar FAKED his death.
He "symbolically" died, to satisfy the mythic prototype, but he
didn't literally come back from the Dead. Also, his trip to "hell" is
NOT to a literal Underworld where the literal ghosts/spirits of the
Damned are punished by God for their sins--MacDonald refers to the
nuked "forbidden city" as "the hell my forefathers used to preach
about"... but he says this to satisfy the mythic archetypes; NOWHERE
did MacDonald's ancestors ever preach that Hell was a man-made
creation, the destroyed remnants of his own man-made cities--rather,
Hell is created by God as a place in which to imprison the Fallen
Angels and the wretched sinners of Mankind (The inscription on the
Gate of Hell, in Dante's "Inferno", Canto 3, says that "Justice moved
my High Maker; / I was made by the Power divine, / the Highest Wisdom
and the Primal Love": in other words, GOD made Hell, not Man... yet
the symbolic "Hell" in BATTLE was once a "paradise" turned into a
Wasteland/Desert BY MAN. Dehn (and, presumably, the Corringtons) have
MacDonald refer to the ruined city as "hell" because they want the
audience to make the mythic connections with the story told in
Dante's "Inferno", where the Pilgrim, Dante, is led by the spirit of
the long-dead Roman poet Virgil on a journey through Hell, up the
mountain of Purgatory, and then (with Beatrice replacing Virgil at
the top of the Mountain of Purgatory) through the celestial spheres
of Paradise to the "Celestial Rose" where God, the Angels, and the
Saved dwell for all eternity. That's why Paul Williams plays an
orangutan with the name VIRGIL--he symbolizes the wisdom available to
anyone, short of divine intervention (symbolized by Beatrice).

> > But the orangutan Virgil is not a ghost from the distant past, as

was Dante's guide. And the bombed-out city is NOT a literal Hell--
it's the SF symbolic equivalent. And when Caesar goes into that
Underworld to discover the Fate of his own people from the testimony
of his dead parents (as Aeneas does from his father Anchises' ghost),
his parents aren't really there, conscious of him and communicating
with him: only their pre-recorded images and voices are there, on
tape.

> >
> > And what is the Fate that Caesar's parents describe to him? The

destruction of the World.

> > For Caesar to SUCCEED at changing the Future, that would require

him doing what no epic hero ever did: Avoid the personal Fate
which "God" has decreed for him. Aeneas learns of his Fate from his
father's ghost: to found the race of Romans who will eventually rule
the world (in the poet Virgil's time)--and Aeneas does NOT have the
ability to avoid that Fate. Not even the goddess Juno/Hera, his
nemesis who wishes she COULD change that Fate, has the power to
prevent Aeneas from planting the seed which will culminate in
Augustus' Empire.

> >
> > And Christ? After His death and resurrection, He supposedly

ascended into Heaven, is seated at the right hand of His Father, and
WILL COME AGAIN in glory to judge the Living and the Dead. Caesar is,
to a certain extent, a Christ-figure, like all sorts of other mythic
heroes, but he does NOT have the supernatural ability to come back to
the World centuries after his REAL death, and personally use any
divine power to prevent Doomsday.

> >
> > The ONLY thing which Caesar's community has to go on, they think,

is HOPE for the Future. Virgil says, at the end, "The greatest danger
of all is that Danger is never over," to Mandemus, who wants to
destroy the Guns. And Caesar says, "So we must be patient and
wait..." ...and we flash forward to the Lawgiver in 2670 A.D., who
says: "We still wait" but "with hope for the future." Hope. Not
DIVINE ASSURANCE. Just Hope. Why can't they be SURE that Doomsday
won't happen? Because God has not eradicated all hatred from the
World--the last image we see before the camera pans over to the
WEEPING statue of Caesar is of a boy chimp pulling the ponytail of a
girl human, who violently pushes him away: they're FIGHTING.
Not "play" fighting, like young Cornelius and his human friend
playing "War"; but REAL fighting. And that Doomsday Bomb has NOT been
dismantled--it still exists, in the "care" of Mendez & Alma, and the
community of mutating humans who will come to revere it as their God,
bringing the Timeline full circle to the way things are in BENEATH.

> >
> > So, does this mean that I--by not seeing any "God" in the POTA

universe--am a pessimistic nihilist? Nope. And the reason that I
consider the TV series to be just as important a part of the POTA
saga as the 5 films has to do with the THEME of the show, as
articulated by Virdon:

> > GRUNDIG: "Do you believe humans and apes are equal?"
> > VIRDON: "In this world or ours?"
> > PROTO: "In any world."
> > VIRDON: "I don't know about ANY world, but I believe all

creatures of equal intelligence should learn to live and work with
each other as equals."

> >
> > [note: this dialogue is taken from the script for "Escape from

Tomorrow", which is slightly different from what Ron Harper actually
spoke--he didn't say the words "of equal intelligence" from the
script when the cameras were rolling.]

> >
> > But it isn't enough to "live and work" with equality--you have to

work towards a Goal. Even if Taylor never detonates that Bomb in
3955, there are still any of a number of things which will eventually
happen to wipe out Intelligent life on Earth, such as "a natural
catastrophe... a storm of meteors" (as Taylor suggests to Zaius), or
a comet strike, or a (relatively) nearby supernova, or the Sun going
nova. Granted, the Sun won't go nova for about 5 billion years, but
it eventually WILL. And if Earth's intelligent life does NOT get its
ass off the planet and into outer space, then that's all she wrote!

> > The ONLY hope humanity (or intelligent simiankind) has, is to

develop SCIENCE and TECHNOLOGY, towards peaceful ends. Only if we
become a spacefaring species will we survive the death of our Sun (or
the meteor/comet/asteroid smashing of the Earth). That's why the
Heroes of the POTA TV show are AMERICAN SCIENTIST/ASTRONAUTS. Their
Americanism is voiced in Virdon's belief in Equality between
intelligent creatures; and in virtually every episode Virdon and
Burke use their Scientific and Technical know-how to IMPROVE the
living conditions of both Humans and Apes. Unfortunately, it's an
uphill battle, because the Ape society is gripped by an intense Fear
of Technology, due to the mis-use of Technology for the purposes of
War--the Nuclear War which had wiped out America and the rest of the
civilized world. Zaius & Urko, in throwing out the "bathwater" (ALL
higher technology) have also thrown out the "baby" (peacefully-used
good high-tech). Just as Lot and his family have to get their asses
out of Sodom before God rains down fire and brimstone on it, so too
does Humanity have to get its ass off the Earth before Taylor
detonates that God-bomb. Lot had forewarning--and so, too, does
Caesar's community; Caesar and Virgil and MacDonald heard with their
own ears the voice of Zira tell them that the Earth's destruction was
in the year "Thirty-Nine... Fifty--" (the "something" Zira also said
isn't preserved on the tape, and the "Five" was not mentioned by
her). So Caesar, Virgil, and MacDonald have reason enough to believe
that the planet has just about 1,932 years left to it (if, as I
conclude, BATTLE takes place in 2018, due to Mandemus' line about
guarding Caesar's Armory for 27 years, since 1991). If the World has
a little over 19 centuries to get its act together, then there should
be no problem. But IF there is no "cure" for interracial hatred (Ape
vs. Human, Orangutan & Gorilla vs. Chimpanzee, Ape vs. Mutant, etc.),
then wouldn't it make sense to seek a path which leads to the
survival of their peoples: off-planet spacefaring? For Pete's sake,
Caesar's community lives in a non-technical "city" made of tree-
forts! Their backwards hospital isn't good enough to save the life of
Caesar's injured heir. The ONLY higher technology the Apes retain are
the Guns (and a geiger counter!). Not the refridgerators. Not the x-
ray machines, or the table-saws, or the television, or even simple
radio... NOTHING. Just as Caesar has restricted the human diet to
vegetarian fare ("now we chew nuts, at our Master's command..."), so
too has this ape King restricted his community to a pre-technological
level--a step BACKWARD. Are things much better 6 or 7 centuries
later, when the Lawgiver tells Caesar's story to the 'harmonious'
Apes and Humans? After 600 years and more... and they STILL are in
the pre-techno level! There is no evidence of striving for the
industrial betterment of their meager civilization. It's easy to see
the situation remaining virtually the same over the course of another
400 years, when Zaius and Urko are running the show, actively
destroying any remnants of "dangerous" human technology (like the
cache of computers in "The Legacy"). Just as it was Man who created
the symbolic "Hell" of the nuked city in BATTLE, and not God, so too
does Man have to concoct his own salvation, which he CAN achieve if
he makes use of his Intelligence to create a high-tech, industrial
civilization geared towards extending a Human presence permanently
outside the bounds of the cradle of planet Earth. In outer space. Man
is "that marvel of the universe, that glorious paradox" who sent
Taylor "to the stars". Unfortunately, Taylor wound up back on "a
world upside-down" and in bitterness for the loss of Nova (the only
woman who, it seems, ever loved him), he triggers the world-
destroying souvenir from the 20th century. Before 3955, Caesar (or
Virgil, or MacDonald) should work towards sending OTHER intelligent
Earth creatures "to the stars", so that at least a REMNANT of Earth
intelligence can survive the End of the World.

> > As long as the Zaiuses and Urkos are in charge... as long as guys

like Leuric are persecuted for being technologically innovative...
the world is DOOMED. But if Virdon and Burke can prove to Ape and
Human alike that Technology--as dangerous as it can be (and, sadly,
had been proven to be when misused in the Past)--is still the ONLY
hope any of us has to perpetuate our civilization, which is
ultimately the supreme goal listed in the preamble of the
Constitution of the United States: "...to secure the blessings of
liberty for ourselves AND OUR POSTERITY..." If the world is wiped out
in 3955, and we KNOW it's coming, then for the sake of our posterity,
we must get our butts off "terra firma". The technophobic, luddite
Apes are doomed--the innovators (like Cornelius & Zira) are
persecuted, rather than encouraged. But IF people (even Apes and
Humans, together) are willing to live and work together as equals, as
Virdon says, THEN maybe there's a chance. "God" isn't the answer to
the dilemma facing Apes and Humans on the Planet of the Apes: it's
US. We are both the Problem AND the Solution. We have to be "our
better selves" (to paraphrase Cornelius' admonition to Zira). God
ain't gonna intervene at the last second to keep Taylor's paw off the
Doomsday Bomb's trigger. We can't rely on divine intervention--we
have to save ourselves.

> >
> > At least, that's how I see it.
> >
> > Patrick

--- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:

> > And I couldn't help noticing that in order to kick-start a

couple "on-topic" POTA discussions over there, that messages posted
to THIS site were "borrowed", so you folks could have SOMETHING to
talk about. And WHOSE messages were borrowed? Hmmm... lemme see...
one was about the lack of female orangutans and gorillas in the POTA
movies... hmmm... who wrote that one? And the other one... the one
about "God" in the POTA universe... who was the one who wrote THAT
message? Hey! I just realized--it was ME! I--one of "the uglies" over
at THIS "old group"--

>
> "God in the POTA universe" was my post and I reposted it to the

other group at the request of James.

*** The content was a back-and-forth between two people, one of whom
was ME. I'm amazed that James actually requested it, since I thought
he didn't like my POTA postings! Maybe it's only when we carp about
the infamous Map that he gets steamed at me... or, maybe he STILL
holds it against me that I chided him (once!) for being not-so-good
at spelling, despite the fact that I apologized once I found out it
was due to dyslexia. Three apologies and counting, and he STILL
hasn't accepted it. >Sigh<

Patrick

*** I've written enough term papers in high school and college to
know that NOTHING of import can be "summarized in a 5 second comedy
skit", as you say. That's like saying that each of Shakespeare's
plays can be boiled down to just one juicy limerick. Not even
the "Cliff's Notes" does justice to those works, so a "5 second
comedy skit" ain't gonna be adequate. Why not ask your wife if 5
seconds of cunnilingus is enough to get her primed for nookie? If she
says Yes, she's LYINGGGG!!!

Discussing POTA intelligently, as far as I'm concerned, is as
exacting as discussing ANYTHING intelligently: it involves citing
evidence both to back up a contention and (when required) to refute
the contrarian's view. If by "discussion" you mean just rattling off
one particular line of dialogue from one of the movies or episodes,
well, THAT is not discussion.

And what is this crap about "Rules for Patrick"? I wouldn't want to
be a part of any cyber-group which was over-laden with rules and
regulations, like the goddamned traffic laws have gotten to be. An
excess of petty rules gives law-enforcement officers MUCH too much of
an opportunity to interfere with you just living your life. Same goes
for the choke-chaining overlordship your types of "rules" leads to.
As Tom Paine said, in "Common Sense", Government is--at best--a
necessary EVIL. People are best left to conduct THEMSELVES in a
manner that best suits them. It is ONLY when someone's behavior
adversely affects another (physical assault, robbery, arson, rape,
etc.) that Society has to resort to instituting some form of LIMITED
government. Most of the problems we face today are the result of TOO
MUCH GODDAMNED GOVERNMENT. A bunch of suits in Congress legislating
the bejeezus out of everybody, insinuating their unwanted presence
where it has no business being, is NOT what the Framers had in mind
when they wrote the Constitution.

"Rules for Patrick"? To HELL with the very notion!

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> I know what you mean, I have the same turmoil when I think of life
without Patrick's posts, so I stay in both groups (I get real excited
when there are days on end without Patrick posts, coz I know that all
those days are filled with him researching and typing the next one!).
> I really don't get the comparison to commercial TV....but when the
alternative is a foreign language channel with some dude trying to
break the record for typing the longest post in the world and boring
everybody's titties off (the content of which could be summarised in
a 5 second comedy skit, but won't be coz he don't wanna), I'LL CHOOSE
TO WATCH THE SIMPSONS ON COMMERCIAL TV!!!
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: veetus@e... [veetus@e...]
> > The thing is, some people like Patrick's posts. Sometimes I'm
not in the mood and save them for later, but I read them. For those
who delete them, that's a valid choice. But should I be denied the
posts because some don't like them, even if it's a majority? Sounds
like commercial TV to me, or lowest common denominator, and we get
enough of that in the "real world". - - - Jeff

*** Our private e-mails, Mike, were utterly sincere. Had I known that
outside of that "private" back-channel communication with you, that
you were playing "God Emperor of POTA-DG's exclusive club", touting
your new group as some sort of island of sanity amidst a sea of
trouble whilst regressing to the Dark Ages by excommunicating Rory
from its member-list, all without a "democratic" vote by the members,
all by your own dictatorial iron fist, I would have been utterly
flabbergasted, wondering if you were afflicted with multiple
personality disorder.
Can you not see that your arbitrary, unilateral "my-way-or-the-
highway" overlordship of your new "nice" site is appalling to those
of us who would NEVER kick anybody out for ANY reason? This whole
scene reminds me of Aldo, in BATTLE, when Caesar invites the humans
into the Council; Aldo begins chanting "NO HUMANS IN COUNCIL!" over
and over again, finally taking all his gorilla buddies and declaring
pridefully "WE will not sit in council with HUMANS!" After they leave
in a huff, they form their own little Nazi-like cult, meeting around
the fire in the woods, as Aldo tells his fellow gorillas that THEY
are a "master race" and all that crap.
First these gorillas LEAVE their community to form a SEPARATIST
faction. Then they puff up their pride with ego-boosting rhetoric.
And then where does it lead? Aldo "seizes power". He has humans
thrown into the corral; he breaks into the Armory and takes all the
guns, giving him the power to do what he wants.

How is this similar to what YOU have done, Mike?
Even though you are still posting over here, you--like Aldo--have
formed a SEPARATIST PotA chat group. And you then pat yourselves on
the back as being MORE about on-topic POTA discussion than the "old"
group: "ego-boosting rhetoric". By starting your own group, you've
acquired the power you DIDN'T have over here: to censor the messages
put in by an "undesirable" like Rory, and then to kick him out. They
say that Power Corrupts, and that Absolute Power corrupts absolutely.
Well, Mike, you SOUGHT OUT a position of power, acquiring it by
starting your new group in which YOU have the ability to arbitrarily
exercise ALL POWER, by evicting a member with whom you have a
personal grievance.
I am oh so glad that over HERE you do NOT have such power. THIS
group, however fast the fur may fly, at least is FREE.

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Yeah, I totally agree, but it was a private to Patrick (who
probably went all hard when he saw the length of mine...no pun
intended), and if you had read it you would have got in the content
that I did try to very calmly sort things out with the guy.
>
> He obviously prefers the cyber-stage so that's his choice, but next
time anybody wants to go pointing the finger, you'll know where to
point it.
>
> Anyone would think that you are trying to bait me Jeff.
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: veetus@e... [veetus@e...]
> > Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 17:58
> > To: pota@y...
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Boring
> >
> >
> > That e-mail was too long, Michael, so I deleted it. - - - Jeff

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:

> Patrick's posts
> This is one of the things I like about this group. A little OT

time space theory discussion isn't frowned upon. Anywho . . . I'm
afraid I'm going to have to encourage another one. I just saw this
show on the Dark Force. You know . . . Einstein's Cosmic Constant.
See if you look at all the matter in the Universe, it should add up
to 1, but it doesn't. Even if you include dark matter, it only adds
up to about 1/3. But there's the Dark Force. That dark energy in the
void that not only makes the Universe expand, but accelerate, in
spite of the gravitational forces. See, space is flat. If it was
curved, either convexly or concavely, then parallel lines in space
would eventually either separate or converge, but they don't. It
seems to me that Patrick had a different take on this than the rest
of the real brain boxes here on Earth. But I can't recall what it
was. What are your thoughts Patrick?

*** Ever since I read "The Big Bang Never Happened" by Eric Lerner,
I've been skeptical about the Big Bang Theory. Granted, the BBT has a
lot going for it. Then again, so did the Ptolemaic Cosmology, with
all of its epicycles.
Those who say that there MUST be Dark Matter (or, also, Dark Energy)
have yet to show EXACTLY WHAT this stuff is. It is NOWHERE found in
the nearby vicinity. There's been no discovery on Earth of a
substance comprised of physical matter which is NOT made up of the
subatomic particles we all know about (protons, electrons, neutrons,
neutrinos, etc.). There are people who WANT the BBT to be true, so
they've speculated that the Universe's "missing matter" (which is
REQUIRED to exist for the BBT's equations to "work") is made up of
WIMPs (Weakly Interacting Massive Particles) perhaps... or of MACHOs
(MAssive Compact Halo Objects)... or of this or that... and NONE of
these hypothetical "different" types of Matter have ever been
examined in any laboratory.
The "Plasma Cosmology" championed by Eric Lerner in his book, based
on the work of Dr. Hannes Alfven--an expert on MagnetoHydroDynamics
(MHD)--makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. But the Big Bang
Theory has been the Orthodoxy for decades, and it is so entrenched
right now that in order for Non-Orthodox theories to be touted in the
popular literature (like "Discover" magazine, or "Scientific
American", or "Astronomy") the older generation of Cosmologists has
to die off like the dinosaurs, to let the "young bloods" in so that
their views can be aired.

I recommend Lerner's book, "The Big Bang Never Happened". It's not a
pseudo-scientific neo-Creationist diatribe (like all that hooey
written by evangelical anti-evolutionists): Lerner's book is about a
SCIENTIFIC alternative to the popular theory that the ENTIRE UNIVERSE
was once smaller than a proton (!) and exploded about 14 Billion
years ago. If ALL the mass of the known Universe were to be crammed
into a space smaller than a pea, then the gravitational forces would
be so immense that NOTHING could cause it to explode. All that mass
would be concentrated at a Singularity, as it is in a Black Hole, and
Black Holes don't explode. They may evaporate ever-so-slowly due to
Hawking radiation, but the rate at which this happens is NOT
instantaneous, as the Big Bang is supposed to have been.

If the "cosmological redshift" IS due to the Universe expanding, then
MAYBE there was a Big Bang of some sort way back when. But there are
those who dispute that the redshift MUST be interpreted as doppler-
shifting due to movement. If that redshift can be explained in a way
that does NOT involve everything expanding away from everything else,
then the BBT is unnecessary. The Universe need not have HAD
any "beginning" at all.

Patrick

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Whitty

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:48 AM

Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick

Sounds like commercial TV to Jeff, or lowest common denominator, and we get enough of that in the "real world".

Sounds like a practical, commomn sense approach to me.

Or maybe we should get Patrick to post in Ancient Arabaic to assure that only 2 people in the world will ever get anything out of it?

I'm on fire tonight.  ARGGGGH...no, I mean it, help!!!  What's that, you wouldn't piss on me if I WAS on fire?  ARGGGHHH!!!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:50
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick

The thing is, some people like Patrick's posts.

I like a lot of Patrick's post.  He just has a tendency to type faster than I can read.  Even Patrick will admit he has a tendency to be verbose and very...detailed.  I for one wish when he's making a post of several pages, he'd break it up into a few separate posts -- if that wouldn't interrupt his flow.  I'd get more out of them anyway.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 2:21 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick

Patrick's posts

This is one of the things I like about this group.  A little OT time space theory discussion isn't frowned upon.  Anywho . . . I'm afraid I'm going to have to encourage another one.  I just saw this show on the Dark Force.  You know . . . Einstein's Cosmic Constant.  See if you look at all the matter in the Universe, it should add up to 1, but it doesn't.  Even if you include dark matter, it only adds up to about 1/3. But there's the Dark Force.  That dark energy in the void that not only makes the Universe expand, but accelerate, in spite of the gravitational forces.  See, space is flat.  If it was curved, either convexly or concavely, then parallel lines in space would eventually either separate or converge, but they don't. It seems to me that Patrick had a different take on this than the rest of the real brain boxes here on Earth.  But I can't recall what it was.   What are your thoughts Patrick?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/23/02 5:22:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> LordTZer0@A... writes:
>
>
> > A little OT time space theory discussion isn't frowned upon.
>
> Yeah, I actually want Patrick to explain that "the speed of light

minus epsilon" thing again. I tend to forget the details over the
course of time.

>
> -- Rory

*** Boulle's "La Planete des Singes" actually has a rather well done
explanation of Einsteinian Relativity. It's there where the "speed of
light minus epsilon" bit is talked about, when Antelle explains how
it'll only take them about 2 years to travel to Betelgeuse... or to
ANYWHERE in the Universe--albeit in "Ship-Time", as opposed to "Earth-
Time".

Lightspeed (in a pure vacuum) is 299,792,458 meters per second.

Antelle's ship accelerates at a rate of 1 gee, or 9.8 meters per
second squared.

Dividing 299,792,458 m/s by 9.8 m/s^2 gives you 30,591,067.14
seconds, which is equal to 354.0632771 days (there being 86,400
seconds in a day, of course).

354 days is "about a year", which is what Antelle says is the time
required for the Acceleration phase of their journey to Betelgeuse.
It is also the time required for the Deceleration phase. In between
those two periods, their spaceship coasts along at its top velocity,
which can never (in an Einsteinian universe) be Equal to or More than
Lightspeed. As Antelle says, "this craft can move at the highest
speed imaginable in the universe for a material body, that's to say
the speed of light minus epsilon", that is "to within an
infinitesimal degree" of Lightspeed: "to within a thousand
millionth".

Boulle doesn't give the equation, but here it is: when "v" (the
ship's velocity) approaches "c" (lightspeed), the rate of Time
passage on the ship slows down (i.e. it appears to the travellers
that the Universe outside them is aging faster):

ET = ST / sqr(1 - (v/c)^2)

where ET is "Earth-Time", ST is "Ship-Time", and sqr is "square root".

As "v" approaches "c", the fraction "v/c" approaches "1/1" or just 1,
and 1 squared equals 1; thus, the bracketed denominator becomes (1 -
1), which equals Zero. And the "square root of Zero" is an impossible
number, which is why Lightspeed is the fastest possible speed in the
material universe. The closer to "c" that "v" gets, the higher
the "ET" number gets (both "ET" and "ST" are equivalent, initially,
before the acceleration on that journey begins, a ratio of 1:1).

At 99% Lightspeed (where "v" = 0.99 and "c" = 1), the "ET" number is
at 7.088812, meaning that one hour experienced on the spaceship is
now equal to just over 7 hours back on Earth. At 99.999% Lightspeed,
the "ET" number climbs to 223.60736, so that one hour on the
spaceship equals 223.6 hours on Earth--or, 9.317 days.

Thus, ANY journey across the Universe--whether it be to the nearest
star system (Alpha Centauri, 4.34 Lightyears away) or to the
Andromeda Galaxy (MILLIONS of lightyears away)--will only take "about
two years": the 1st near-year for the Acceleration phase from Zero
Velocity up to "lightspeed minus epsilon", followed by a variable
coasting duration at top speed, and then the 2nd near-year for the
Deceleration phase from "lightspeed minus epsilon" back down to Zero
Velocity, at their destination. The only catch is that you have to
point your ship in the right direction and travel in a "straight"
line trajectory forward, which requires knowing WHERE your
destination is going to be at the "Earth-Time" when you arrive there.
Going to another star system involves knowing enough about the Proper
Motion of that star relative to your home planet, just as going to
the Moon involved boosting the Apollo mission ships on a transfer
orbit so that the spaceships intercepted the Moon in its elliptical
orbital journey around the Earth.
That "coasting" phase could last a few seconds... or minutes... or
hours... or even days or weeks. If that "ET" number is sufficiently
high (so that, for example, 1 ST day equalled 365 ET days), then your
ship can do the majority of its interstellar (even intergalactic)
travelling during that relatively short time while coasting. What's a
few hours or days--even a week--when the majority of time is spent
Accelerating and Decelerating for a total of almost 2 years of Ship-
Time?

And, of course, a return journey back to Earth would take the same
amount of time (both Ship and Earth-Time) as the outward journey,
provided the rate of Acceleration (1 gee) was the same. However, the
Earth will have aged by the same (roughly) amount of Years as the
number of Lightyears the ship has travelled. That's why Ulysse's
voyage to Betelgeuse (about 300 Lightyears away from Earth) takes him
only about 2 personal years to get there, during which about
300 "real" years have gone by back on Earth; add to that another 300
Earth-Time years for his journey back, with Nova and their son
Sirius. After having left Earth in A.D. 2500, Ulysse Merou winds up
back on Earth (briefly!) in about the year 3100 or 3200 (Boulle is
inexact when referring to the distance to Betelgeuse: in Chapter 2 he
implies it's "three hundred" (300) lightyears away, whereas in
Chapter 11 (of Part 3), Ulysse narrates that they've had "seven
hundred years' absence" (700). In other words, Betelgeuse is either
closer to 350 lightyears away (or so), and not just 300, or Ulysse
has been gone for only 600 years (or so). If, though, we say that
Betelgeuse is ACTUALLY around 335 LY away (i.e. 335, rounded to the
nearest hundred, gives us 300), then the round-trip journey would be
335 + 335 + 4 + 1 years, or 675 years (the "4" being the total of 4
years of Acceleration and Deceleration both There and Back, and
the "1" being the year Ulysse spent on Soror). And 675 rounded up to
the nearest hundred would be the "700" years mentioned at the end of
the book. And during this 675 years of Earth-Time, Ulysse would have
aged only 5 years, since the two bunches of 335 Earth-Time years
were "skipped over" during the short coasting phase, when Time
Dilation made those years (on Earth) equal to only a few hours
(perhaps) on the near-lightspeed travelling spaceship.

To quote the old man in that Thomas Dolby song/video: "SCIENCE!"

Patrick

.htmlGood explanation, Patrick.  You should be a professor.

So, only six or seven years passed on earth by the time Merou returned in the book?

But when Taylor returns to earth it's two thousand years later.  So, what do you think happened there, Patrick.

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Whitty

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 1:48 AM

Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick

Sounds like commercial TV to Jeff, or lowest common denominator, and we get enough of that in the "real world".

Sounds like a practical, commomn sense approach to me.

Or maybe we should get Patrick to post in Ancient Arabaic to assure that only 2 people in the world will ever get anything out of it?

I'm on fire tonight.  ARGGGGH...no, I mean it, help!!!  What's that, you wouldn't piss on me if I WAS on fire?  ARGGGHHH!!!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 19:50
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Rules for Patrick

The thing is, some people like Patrick's posts.

I like a lot of Patrick's post.  He just has a tendency to type faster than I can read.  Even Patrick will admit he has a tendency to be verbose and very...detailed.  I for one wish when he's making a post of several pages, he'd break it up into a few separate posts -- if that wouldn't interrupt his flow.  I'd get more out of them anyway.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

.html

It is encouraging to see that a self admitted anarchist can see why rules exist.

I'm not so much an anarchist as an independent with libertarian leanings.  I haven voted that way with the exception of my fist presidential election, because it doesn't seem to do much good.  Whenever I'm that apathetic I usually don't bother to the polls.  Only you could bring Rory and Pat together on anything.  And here I was going to yell Splitter like Python's LOB.  See Some good has come out of this.
And remember the Radical Moderate's battle cry, Death To All Extremists!<.html

.htmlI'm having trouble believing a certain wacko here is actually a parent.

At least this Michael hasn't dangled any kids over balconies, that we know of.<.html

.htmlYou're not playing by the rules! - - -

"Don't use the rules
They're not for you
They're for the fools
And you're a fool
if you don't know that
So use the rules
You stupid foooool"
~~ Mick Jones of The Clash~~~<.html

Brian e-mailed me when he left, saying that it had gotten too "vicious"
around here. But there wasn't a new group at that time so some of the
"uglies" are in the new group, too. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:32 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] "Flame Wars: Episode IV: A New Pope"


> *** This group did NOT send him--or anybody else--"packing". If he
> left, it was because he didn't want to be here and, thus, departed of
> his own free will.
> And the whole point of this displeasure with "flame wars", I thought,
> was that nobody in YOUR group approved of it... but I can see that
> what you guys REALLY mean is that you don't want to flame each other,
> but flaming those of us who prefer to remain at THIS site is just
> fine and dandy. So Brian uses a pejorative term (NOT directed at any
> of his fellow group members over there, but directed at US over
> HERE), and NOT ONE SINGLE SYLLABLE OF DISAPPROVAL ISSUES FORTH FROM
> THE MOUTHS OF YOU GUYS, who are supposedly "fed up" with the flame
> wars. The old adage is that "silence means consent": that means that
> YOUR silence in the wake of his reference to us as "uglies" implies
> that you guys APPROVE of such pejoratives directed at those who
> aren't in your precious inner circle.
>
> If you, Brian, are reading this, then I have just one thing to say to
> you: YOU are free to resume/continue posting messages over on this
> site, because NOBODY on this site has ever been kicked out, for ANY
> reason. We don't have Adolf Whitler over here to unilaterally send
> anybody out to "the forbidden zone". ANYBODY can join up here and
> contribute, without fear of being jettisoned by der fuhrer. As long
> as you aren't posting kiddie porn pics, or crap like that (which, we
> all know, is ILLEGAL), you need never fear excommunication from Pope
> Mike.
>
> Patrick
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > That was Brian, remember him? Your group sent him packing.
> >
> > Take it up with him.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 5:37
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Silence of the Clams
> >
> > > Talk about "flame wars"--it was nice to see a not-so-covert
> reference to THIS group as "uglies" by one of your members.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

It is encouraging to see that a self admitted anarchist can see why rules exist.

I'm not so much an anarchist as an independent with libertarian leanings.  I haven voted that way with the exception of my fist presidential election, because it doesn't seem to do much good.  Whenever I'm that apathetic I usually don't bother to the polls.  Only you could bring Rory and Pat together on anything.  And here I was going to yell Splitter like Python's LOB.  See Some good has come out of this.
And remember the Radical Moderate's battle cry, Death To All Extremists!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .
<.html

The new issue of "Toyfare" (Jan. 2003) has a neat price guide to block
figures, the trend that Kubricks started (I-Men, Blockos, Pocket
Superheroes, Mini-Mates, ad nauseum). Included is a listing of (I guess) all
Kubricks. There's also a small article about super rare Kubricks, including
a picture of "Rebel Ape". Some of you have heard of the Japanese design team
A Bathing Ape? On of their designs is a Che Guevara image with a POTA head .
This was turned into a Kubrick for the World Character Convention. This is a
nearly impossible Kubrick to get, but the picture is cool. It says Medicom
is planning a 12" Rebel Ape for '03.
Also, those familiar with the magazine have seen the little comic pictures
they do with toys. For the block figure guide there's a picture of the
Kubrick "Conquest" gorilla with some building blocks in a parody of "2001".
And a picture of a Khan (Montalban) figure with a Kubrick Caesar a la
"Conquest". Those crazy folks! At the start of the price guide they remind
us that the prices are just estimates, saying,"This is a guide. Not ape
law". AH HA HA! Obviously "Apes" still rules pop culture. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:32 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] "Flame Wars: Episode IV: A New Pope"


> *** This group did NOT send him--or anybody else--"packing". If he
> left, it was because he didn't want to be here and, thus, departed of
> his own free will.
> And the whole point of this displeasure with "flame wars", I thought,
> was that nobody in YOUR group approved of it... but I can see that
> what you guys REALLY mean is that you don't want to flame each other,
> but flaming those of us who prefer to remain at THIS site is just
> fine and dandy. So Brian uses a pejorative term (NOT directed at any
> of his fellow group members over there, but directed at US over
> HERE), and NOT ONE SINGLE SYLLABLE OF DISAPPROVAL ISSUES FORTH FROM
> THE MOUTHS OF YOU GUYS, who are supposedly "fed up" with the flame
> wars. The old adage is that "silence means consent": that means that
> YOUR silence in the wake of his reference to us as "uglies" implies
> that you guys APPROVE of such pejoratives directed at those who
> aren't in your precious inner circle.
>
> If you, Brian, are reading this, then I have just one thing to say to
> you: YOU are free to resume/continue posting messages over on this
> site, because NOBODY on this site has ever been kicked out, for ANY
> reason. We don't have Adolf Whitler over here to unilaterally send
> anybody out to "the forbidden zone". ANYBODY can join up here and
> contribute, without fear of being jettisoned by der fuhrer. As long
> as you aren't posting kiddie porn pics, or crap like that (which, we
> all know, is ILLEGAL), you need never fear excommunication from Pope
> Mike.
>
> Patrick
>
> --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > That was Brian, remember him? Your group sent him packing.
> >
> > Take it up with him.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 5:37
> > > To: pota@y...
> > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Silence of the Clams
> >
> > > Talk about "flame wars"--it was nice to see a not-so-covert
> reference to THIS group as "uglies" by one of your members.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Where is your evidence Jeff?

Are we to believe that you, a self professed believer in God (and I place
the capital "G" in suffrance), would ever allow such a thing without
intervening?

Patrick

> -----Original Message-----
> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 24 November 2002 14:05
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes]Flame Wars: Episode IV: A New Couple

(Roars and Patty)

>
>
> Brian e-mailed me when he left, saying that it had gotten too "vicious"

around here.

Nazis!

There are too many laws around already!

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 24 November 2002 14:18
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Kubricks
>

"...ape law". AH HA HA! Obviously "Apes" still rules pop culture. - - - Jeff

>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "patriciamichelletitty" <patriciamichelletitty@...>
> To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:32 AM
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] "Flame Wars: Episode IV: A New Pope"
>
>
> > *** This group did NOT send him--or anybody else--"packing". If he
> > left, it was because he didn't want to be here and, thus, departed of
> > his own free will.
> > And the whole point of this displeasure with "flame wars", I thought,
> > was that nobody in YOUR group approved of it... but I can see that
> > what you guys REALLY mean is that you don't want to flame each other,
> > but flaming those of us who prefer to remain at THIS site is just
> > fine and dandy. So Brian uses a pejorative term (NOT directed at any
> > of his fellow group members over there, but directed at US over
> > HERE), and NOT ONE SINGLE SYLLABLE OF DISAPPROVAL ISSUES FORTH FROM
> > THE MOUTHS OF YOU GUYS, who are supposedly "fed up" with the flame
> > wars. The old adage is that "silence means consent": that means that
> > YOUR silence in the wake of his reference to us as "uglies" implies
> > that you guys APPROVE of such pejoratives directed at those who
> > aren't in your precious inner circle.
> >
> > If you, Brian, are reading this, then I have just one thing to say to
> > you: YOU are free to resume/continue posting messages over on this
> > site, because NOBODY on this site has ever been kicked out, for ANY
> > reason. We don't have Adolf Whitler over here to unilaterally send
> > anybody out to "the forbidden zone". ANYBODY can join up here and
> > contribute, without fear of being jettisoned by der fuhrer. As long
> > as you aren't posting kiddie porn pics, or crap like that (which, we
> > all know, is ILLEGAL), you need never fear excommunication from Pope
> > Mike.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> > --- In pota@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > That was Brian, remember him? Your group sent him packing.
> > >
> > > Take it up with him.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, 23 November 2002 5:37
> > > > To: pota@y...
> > > > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Silence of the Clams
> > >
> > > > Talk about "flame wars"--it was nice to see a not-so-covert
> > reference to THIS group as "uglies" by one of your members.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

>
>

I think "ugly" is describing their behaviour.

Mine can certainly be rather unattractive at times (and I'm not going to be
a big baby here and start saying "but he started it").

The behaviour of all on the "new" group has been remarkably good, except for
one guy who got his ass whupped!!!

Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 24 November 2002 14:05

But there wasn't a new group at that time so some of the "uglies" are in the
new group, too. - -

- Jeff

.htmlIn a message dated 11/23/02 10:37:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Mine can certainly be rather unattractive at times (and I'm not going to be
a big baby here and start saying "but he started it").

You started it by acting like an ass!<.html

.html
You may be right.  Whenever someone says something with authority, especially if it's something I have no way of verifying, I tend to take their word for it.  So unless I turn into an Einstein and discover proof to the contrary, if Professor Stephen Hawking's voicebox says so, I'd have to go along with that.

the Big Bang Theory has been the Orthodoxy for decades, and it is so entrenched
right now that in order for Non-Orthodox theories to be touted in the
popular literature (like "Discover" magazine, or "Scientific
American", or "Astronomy") the older generation of Cosmologists has
to die off like the dinosaurs, to let the "young bloods" in so that
their views can be aired.

<.html

Attachments :

.htmlHere's what this group needs. . . .


A High Pressure Hose job for you, Whitty!

AND  SHUT UP, YOU FREAK! <.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Sunday, 24 November 2002 22:45
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] The Dark Force... Dark Matter, Dark Energy, & Cosmol...

You may be right.  Whenever someone says something with authority, especially if it's something I have no way of verifying, I tend to take their word for it.  So unless I turn into an Einstein and discover proof to the contrary, if Professor Stephen Hawking's voicebox says so, I'd have to go along with that.

the Big Bang Theory has been the Orthodoxy for decades, and it is so entrenched
right now that in order for Non-Orthodox theories to be touted in the
popular literature (like "Discover" magazine, or "Scientific
American", or "Astronomy") the older generation of Cosmologists has
to die off like the dinosaurs, to let the "young bloods" in so that
their views can be aired.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

I thought Rory said there were some good POTA topics coming...

Or has he focussed his energies on getting that job?

Wouln't if be funny if Rory and I were just puttin' this on (like a classic
Andy Kaufmann scene) and tomorrow we gang up on Patrick again?!?

So Rory, which one of your 2 conflicting personalities was telling the
truth? The one who said there is nothing left to talk about or the one who
warns of fascinating topics to come? Or did I steal your thunder by
offering the join-the-dots scans?

Michael

Who are you talking to?

And who is this patriciamichelletitty? Is this a joke?

Michael

> ----- Not Necessarily the Original Message -----
> From: "patriciamichelletitty" <patriciamichelletitty@...>
> To: <anythingbutpota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 6:32 AM EARTH TIME
> Subject: [Planet of the Turkeys] "Frame Wars: Episode IV: I Was Framed"
>
> > And the whole point of this displeasure with "flame wars", I thought,

was that nobody in YOUR group approved of it...

Attachments :

.htmlI'm busy this weekend, so. . . .

SHUT UP, YOU FREAK!
<.html

.html <.html

--- In pota@y..., Haristas@a... wrote:

> Good explanation, Patrick. You should be a professor.
>
> So, only six or seven years passed on earth by the time Merou returned in the book?
>
> But when Taylor returns to earth it's two thousand years later. So, what do you think happened there, Patrick.
>
> -- Rory

*** Actually, only 6 or 7 CENTURIES pass by on Earth, not "years".
Sometime between 3100 and 3200 A.D. And Ulysse was only 5 years of
"self-time" older, 4 of those "self-time" years being the 2 "ship-
time" Acceleration years and the other 2 being the "Deceleration"
years. And ONE year spent on Soror.

As for the nearly 2000 years it takes for Taylor to reach Earth, well,
that's as much a screw-up as is the opening scene's contention that
about 700 years of Earth-Time have gone by only 6 months of Ship-Time
into their journey... towards a star system that Taylor later says is
320 lightyears away. To be true to EINSTEINIAN relativity, if their
destination IS just 320 LY away, then it should only take them 320
years of Earth-Time to get there, plus whatever time it takes to first
Accelerate up to "lightspeed minus epsilon" and then to Decelerate
back down to near-Zero Velocity.

But the POTA movie seems to have jettisoned EINSTEINIAN relativity in
favor of a modified version of Relativity: HASSLEINIAN. In the
somewhat "different" version on-screen, there doesn't seem to be any
Acceleration or Deceleration phase. Their 18-month journey seems to be
in just ONE phase, where the Time Dilation at "nearly the speed of
light" happens INSTANTANEOUSLY for them: if you take a sheet of graph
paper and tick off 18 months of SHIP-TIME along the bottom (from mid-
January 1972 to mid-July 1973) and make a timeline of EARTH-TIME along
the left/vertical axis (from mid-January of 1972 up to late-November
of 3978), and connect the dots (the bottom left dot being ~ 1-15-1972
[both ET and ST] and the upper right dot being 11-25-3978 [ET] and ~
7-15-1973 [ST]), then at the "sixth month" stage of Ship-Time, a third
of the way through their 18-month journey, we're at about the same
Earth-Time seen on Taylor's EARTH-TIME clock: 3-24-2673.

Evidently, HASSLEINIAN Relativity can get the spaceship accelerated to
that "lightspeed minus epsilon" velocity in an instant, rather than
after 354 days of accelerating at 1 gee (as in the novel). This
implies some sort of "warp drive" effect, like when the Enterprise's
captain says "Engage" and they go "bang-zoom" like a bat outta hell.
I forget the exact number, but in the POTA Screenplay, it has Taylor
saying not only that they're 6 months into their voyage, but also that
they're about 100 lightyears into it (I think it was 112, but I won't
swear by it; I'm typing this at a campus computer cluster, not at
home, so I don't have the script handy). This, too, would confirm that
the undescribed manner in which their ship achieves that "top"
velocity must be some sort of instantaneous "jump" to Nearlight
velocity.

For the sake of my novel, of course, I've come up with an elaborate
description of WHAT happens (regarding these velocities and Time
Dilation effects with the Clocks), and HOW & WHY it happens. And, of
course, that's just me making the movies (and episodes) make better
sense, "unflubbing" them. PLANET, the 1st movie, was not immune to the
"flub" gremlins, which seem to stem from Serling's imperfect
understanding of Einsteinian Relativity--which Boulle understood
perfectly, as his book's 2nd chapter shows.

Patrick

*** Most of the time, I have no problem with deferring to the opinion
of an expert. Most of the time the "experts" are on the mark. But even
the most hallowed Authorities can be wrong. Case in point: Aristotle.
In Medieval Europe he was called "the master of men who Know" (by
Dante); short of that Wisdom which could only be "revealed" to Man by
God, Aristotle was thought of as THE authority on a whole slew of
topics... but his Knowledge was imperfect since he did not use
Scientific Experimentation to verify his suppositions. He didn't
realize that you could actually TEST the rate of velocity change of
different falling Masses. When Galileo, Kepler, Copernicus (etc.) came
along in the appropriately-named "Renaissance", they actually TESTED
the idea and discovered that Aristotle, the "Authority" on such
matters, was WRONG! Horrors!
That's why Boulle names the originator of Sororan Orthodoxy (as
perpetuated by the conservative Orangutans) "Haristas": a slightly
altered spelling of "Aristotle". A brilliant guy, Aristotle was, but
he wasn't right about EVERYTHING. And when just ONE thing he was wrong
about was disproven, it changed the whole world. The "world" didn't
want to change (Galileo was threatened with torture from the
Inquisition for daring to suggest that the Church's Aristotle-derived
orthodoxy was false)... but it really didn't have much choice. The
Truth not only sets you free (most of the time), but Truth itself can
never be kept suppressed for all time. There are always those Ziras
and Corneliuses out there who'll risk imprisonment for Heresy.

Ah, I just love POTA!

Patrick

--- In pota@y..., LordTZer0@A... wrote:
>
> You may be right. Whenever someone says something with authority, especially if it's something I have no way of verifying, I tend to take their word for it. So unless I turn into an Einstein and discover proof to the contrary, if Professor Stephen Hawking's voicebox says so, I'd have to go along with that.
>
> > the Big Bang Theory has been the Orthodoxy for decades, and it is so entrenched right now that in order for Non-Orthodox theories to be touted in the popular literature (like "Discover" magazine, or "Scientific American", or "Astronomy") the older generation of Cosmologists has to die off like the dinosaurs, to let the "young bloods" in so that their views can be aired.

With all the hubbub over this "new" site, I forgot to mention that I
just "discovered" what some here have been yakkin' about for a while,
but didn't realize until I saw it in the Media Play store where I
work.
The first 4 Medicom figures were there--and the guys who unloaded the
box on the truck delivery who all KNOW that I'm a POTA fanatic
neglected to inform me of this! We got in 2 of each of the URSUS
(actually, he looks like URKO), the ZIRA, the ZAIUS, and a SOLDIER APE
(gorilla). I bought just 1 of each, figuring I'd let some other dude
latch on to the rest (hell, I'm not GREEDY). But if they don't sell
before our store puts 'em on the "clearance" rack, then I'll snag
those too.
The back of the packages has a long list of figures, which (for all I
know) are available NOW, but just not at the particular store where I
work at and got these 4.
I'm impressed by the detail on these things. It'd be "sweet" (as
Cartman says, on "South Park") if they would also make "sets" of Ape
City buildings (like the Amphitheater where Ursus gives his speech to
the Citizens Council, or Zira's workplace, or the Tribunal room--or
Ape Management from CONQUEST). It would be cool to be able to set up a
Scene from one of the movies.

Maybe I should just go and buy that other bunch of 4, so that I can
keep the ones I already got in their packages in pristine condition,
and then open up the other ones! I still haven't opened up the "Leo
Davidson" and "Attar" figures I shelled out cash for. If they didn't
have "PLANET OF THE APES" on 'em, I wouldn't have spent the dough.
They're well-made... but the movie they're from was soooo
disappointing!

Patrick

>
> The new issue of "Toyfare" (Jan. 2003) has a neat price guide to block
> figures, the trend that Kubricks started (I-Men, Blockos, Pocket
> Superheroes, Mini-Mates, ad nauseum). Included is a listing of (I guess) all
> Kubricks. There's also a small article about super rare Kubricks, including
> a picture of "Rebel Ape". Some of you have heard of the Japanese design team
> A Bathing Ape? On of their designs is a Che Guevara image with a POTA head .
> This was turned into a Kubrick for the World Character Convention. This is a
> nearly impossible Kubrick to get, but the picture is cool. It says Medicom
> is planning a 12" Rebel Ape for '03.
> Also, those familiar with the magazine have seen the little comic pictures
> they do with toys. For the block figure guide there's a picture of the
> Kubrick "Conquest" gorilla with some building blocks in a parody of "2001".
> And a picture of a Khan (Montalban) figure with a Kubrick Caesar a la
> "Conquest". Those crazy folks! At the start of the price guide they remind
> us that the prices are just estimates, saying,"This is a guide. Not ape
> law". AH HA HA! Obviously "Apes" still rules pop culture. - - - Jeff
>

I love the Kubricks. Sometimes they're my favorite POTA figures, and sometimes
the other Medicoms are. There are lots of cool things about the Kubricks. You
can make your own characters such as Astronaut Brent or female gorilla by
swapping heads. All the characters can ride horses. They have four POTA
characters that the 6 inch line doesn't have. And they have cool props
like the Icarus. I picked up some other Kubricks like the SWAT team to go
with the CONQUEST apes.

I wish they would greatly expand the line and do more POTA characters as well
as other franchises like Star Trek and Star Wars. They are small so it is easy
to collect a lot of them. I do have the bootleg Star Wars Kubricks from
Singapore and they are cool but of slightly less quality.

I subscribe to "Scientific American", a great magazine. I recommend
that everybody here check out the current issue, the DECEMBER 2002
one, because it has some great articles.

Pages 106-115 have an article called "Food for THOUGHT: Dietary change
was a driving force in human evolution", by William R. Leonard. Some
of the basic points this article makes are that changing climatic
conditions caused our knuckle-walking, foraging Australopithecine
ancestors (~ 4 Million years ago) to evolve Bipedalism (which, one
theory goes, reduces the amount of calories it takes for locomotion),
a more "economical" method of moving around, due to the more efficient
way an upright animal regulates body temperature in equatorial areas.
Along with Bipedalism, those ancestors also evolved more complex,
energy-rich diets (from strictly uncooked vegetarian fare to cooked
veggies and protein-rich meat), which was (the article says) a
significant factor in the ballooning size of the hominid Brain (which
requires ever more energy consumption the larger it gets). Since our
bigger brains have more proportional mass than our bodies than
Australopithecine brains did to their bodies, we require more food-
derived energy to make up for this: Bipedalism was one technique which
evolved to supply that energy, by devoting less energy to less-
efficient knuckle-walking locomotion. Food cooking and Carnivorism
also evolved, mostly in the last 300,000 years or so, as a way to fuel
those ever-bigger brains of ours, or so current theory goes.
According to a graph on page 110, a modern chimp has 400 cubic
centimeters of brain, scarcely more than our common ancestor,
Australopithecus afarensis (at 385 cc), whereas modern Homo sapiens
has 1,350 cc (on average), well over 3 times as much noodle! For us
POTA fans, we should wonder how the Apes of POTA morphologically
developed that human-like cranial mass and complexity which they would
HAVE to have in order to be as smart as a modern Human. How do you
take a 400 cc Chimp brain and transmogrify it in ONE generation (!) so
that it has something more like the 1,350 cc of a Human brain? That is
one helluva job of transgenics!

-----------

There's also an article called "The Brightest Explosions in the
Universe" (by Neil Gehrels, Luigi Piro & Peter J.T. Leonard), on pages
84-91. If you'll recall, Rory & I had a back-and-forth discussion
regarding Supernovae and their effects on Earth (if one were to
explode within 1000 lightyears or so).
This article is about those Black Hole-creating Gamma Ray Bursts
(GRB), one extreme form of which is a mega-supernova, called a
"Hypernova". A recent NOVA program on PBS was about this, and the PBS
website probably still has a webpage devoted to this material.
Regarding the destructive potential of a relatively nearby Hypernova
explosion, the first paragraph has this to say:

"Early in the morning of January 23, 1999, a robotic telescope in New
Mexico picked up a faint flash of light in the constellation Corona
Borealis. Though just barely visible through binoculars, it turned out
to be the most brilliant explosion ever witnessed by humanity. We
could see it nine billion light-years away, more than halfway across
the observable universe. If the event had instead taken place a few
thousand light-years away, it would have been as bright as the midday
sun, and it would have dosed Earth with enough radiation to kill off
nearly every living thing."

What kind of stars "go Hypernova"? Stars with masses greater than
about 20 to 30 times that of the Sun, short-lived Giant stars which
"live fast and die young". Unfortunately for us, the star Betelgeuse
(around which Soror revolves) is "20 x Sol" in mass, according to the
Internet Stellar Database website. So, Betelgeuse (which is somewhere
between 300-ish light-years away and 600 LY--the Database mentioned
above has it as 427 LY) is within this mass range of Hypernovae, and
it's CLOSER than the "few thousand light-years" the article mentions
... and nobody knows enough about the supernova/hypernova process to
calculate WHEN that red giant star will reach the end of its life and
go >BOOM<. For all we know, it went Hypernova 425 years ago, and in 2
years we'll SEE that explosion... and then die of radiation poisoning
along with "nearly every living thing" on Earth.

Sobering thought, that.

Patrick

> "flub" gremlins, which seem to stem from Serling's imperfect
> understanding of Einsteinian Relativity--which Boulle understood
> perfectly, as his book's 2nd chapter shows.
>
> Patrick

The spaceship with a "solar sail" in Boulle's book was nonsense.

>
> With all the hubbub over this "new" site, I forgot to mention that I
> just "discovered" what some here have been yakkin' about for a while,
> but didn't realize until I saw it in the Media Play store where I
> work.
> The first 4 Medicom figures were there--and the guys who unloaded the

Do you work in a toy store?

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Rory [Haristas@...]
Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 1:10
To: whitty@...
Subject: You want to see something evil???

What's evil is my ability to hijack people's email addresses. This is James not Rory. You said you'd be lost without my technical skills. I usually use them for good and not evil. To respond to me you have to use my normal email address. If you just hit reply it will go to Rory.

James

PS if you're in doubt that this is James, here's your last private email to me.

Hi James

How is the vote on lurkers going?  I really hope it goes against!

Also, my internet link is screwed - are you able to click on to the link in
the email about POTA trading cards I sent you and copy/paste the contents so
I can read it?

Michael

<.html

Noodles

> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
> Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 4:17
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Check out the DEC 2002 "Scientific
> American" (On-topic)
>
>
> I subscribe to "Scientific American", a great magazine. I recommend
> that everybody here check out the current issue, the DECEMBER 2002
> one, because it has some great articles.
>
> Pages 106-115 have an article called "Food for THOUGHT: Dietary change
> was a driving force in human evolution", by William R. Leonard. Some
> of the basic points this article makes are that changing climatic
> conditions caused our knuckle-walking, foraging Australopithecine
> ancestors (~ 4 Million years ago) to evolve Bipedalism (which, one
> theory goes, reduces the amount of calories it takes for locomotion),
> a more "economical" method of moving around, due to the more efficient
> way an upright animal regulates body temperature in equatorial areas.
> Along with Bipedalism, those ancestors also evolved more complex,
> energy-rich diets (from strictly uncooked vegetarian fare to cooked
> veggies and protein-rich meat), which was (the article says) a
> significant factor in the ballooning size of the hominid Brain (which
> requires ever more energy consumption the larger it gets). Since our
> bigger brains have more proportional mass than our bodies than
> Australopithecine brains did to their bodies, we require more food-
> derived energy to make up for this: Bipedalism was one technique which
> evolved to supply that energy, by devoting less energy to less-
> efficient knuckle-walking locomotion. Food cooking and Carnivorism
> also evolved, mostly in the last 300,000 years or so, as a way to fuel
> those ever-bigger brains of ours, or so current theory goes.
> According to a graph on page 110, a modern chimp has 400 cubic
> centimeters of brain, scarcely more than our common ancestor,
> Australopithecus afarensis (at 385 cc), whereas modern Homo sapiens
> has 1,350 cc (on average), well over 3 times as much noodle! For us
> POTA fans, we should wonder how the Apes of POTA morphologically
> developed that human-like cranial mass and complexity which they would
> HAVE to have in order to be as smart as a modern Human. How do you
> take a 400 cc Chimp brain and transmogrify it in ONE generation (!) so
> that it has something more like the 1,350 cc of a Human brain? That is
> one helluva job of transgenics!
>
> -----------
>
> There's also an article called "The Brightest Explosions in the
> Universe" (by Neil Gehrels, Luigi Piro & Peter J.T. Leonard), on pages
> 84-91. If you'll recall, Rory & I had a back-and-forth discussion
> regarding Supernovae and their effects on Earth (if one were to
> explode within 1000 lightyears or so).
> This article is about those Black Hole-creating Gamma Ray Bursts
> (GRB), one extreme form of which is a mega-supernova, called a
> "Hypernova". A recent NOVA program on PBS was about this, and the PBS
> website probably still has a webpage devoted to this material.
> Regarding the destructive potential of a relatively nearby Hypernova
> explosion, the first paragraph has this to say:
>
> "Early in the morning of January 23, 1999, a robotic telescope in New
> Mexico picked up a faint flash of light in the constellation Corona
> Borealis. Though just barely visible through binoculars, it turned out
> to be the most brilliant explosion ever witnessed by humanity. We
> could see it nine billion light-years away, more than halfway across
> the observable universe. If the event had instead taken place a few
> thousand light-years away, it would have been as bright as the midday
> sun, and it would have dosed Earth with enough radiation to kill off
> nearly every living thing."
>
> What kind of stars "go Hypernova"? Stars with masses greater than
> about 20 to 30 times that of the Sun, short-lived Giant stars which
> "live fast and die young". Unfortunately for us, the star Betelgeuse
> (around which Soror revolves) is "20 x Sol" in mass, according to the
> Internet Stellar Database website. So, Betelgeuse (which is somewhere
> between 300-ish light-years away and 600 LY--the Database mentioned
> above has it as 427 LY) is within this mass range of Hypernovae, and
> it's CLOSER than the "few thousand light-years" the article mentions
> ... and nobody knows enough about the supernova/hypernova process to
> calculate WHEN that red giant star will reach the end of its life and
> go >BOOM<. For all we know, it went Hypernova 425 years ago, and in 2
> years we'll SEE that explosion... and then die of radiation poisoning
> along with "nearly every living thing" on Earth.
>
> Sobering thought, that.
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/02 11:02:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

PLANET, the 1st movie, was not immune to the
"flub" gremlins, which seem to stem from Serling's imperfect
understanding of Einsteinian Relativity--which Boulle understood
perfectly, as his book's 2nd chapter shows.

Patrick

Yeah, Serling did not know science.  TWILIGHT ZONE shows that.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/02 11:31:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

if they would also make "sets" of Ape
City buildings (like the Amphitheater where Ursus gives his speech to
the Citizens Council, or Zira's workplace, or the Tribunal room--or
Ape Management from CONQUEST). It would be cool to be able to set up a
Scene from one of the movies.

It shouldn't be too hard to build such things yourself.  I bought the entire Ape City on the back of a chess board when I was a kid.  Don't know whatever became of it.  I had little trees from train sets and everything.

-- Rory<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/02 12:30:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

The spaceship with a "solar sail" in Boulle's book was nonsense.

Not really, but it wouldn't move through space the way Boulle described.  Or would it, Patrick?

-- Rory<.html

I have now discovered that I am not the only person to have had
emails "doctored" - James, Rory and I have all been victims so far.

Sorry to Rory for my first prize Conclusions Long Jump in assuming it
was his doing.

Whoever it is, please stop immediately because there could be some
legal repercussions if it continues.

Michael



So, Rory, am I to conclude that you bought one of those groovy
packages that intercept people's private emails?

You really are twisted.

Take your pills, boy.

Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Rory [Haristas@...]
Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 1:10
To: whitty@...
Subject: You want to see something evil???


What's evil is my ability to hijack people's email addresses. This is
James not Rory. You said you'd be lost without my technical skills. I
usually use them for good and not evil. To respond to me you have to
use my normal email address. If you just hit reply it will go to Rory.
James
PS if you're in doubt that this is James, here's your last private
email to me.
Hi James

How is the vote on lurkers going? I really hope it goes against!

Also, my internet link is screwed - are you able to click on to the
link in
the email about POTA trading cards I sent you and copy/paste the
contents so
I can read it?

Michael

.html <.html

But, Rory, what would you prefer to watch?

Patrick's Einstein show or Serling's Twilight Zone.

A serious answer would be appreciated....a bucket of noodles or a
Chinese Meal??

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/24/02 11:02:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:
>
>
> > PLANET, the 1st movie, was not immune to the
> > "flub" gremlins, which seem to stem from Serling's imperfect
> > understanding of Einsteinian Relativity--which Boulle understood
> > perfectly, as his book's 2nd chapter shows.
> >
> > Patrick
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yeah, Serling did not know science. TWILIGHT ZONE shows that.
>
> -- Rory
>

Isn't this an old topic?

I'm sure we not only discussed this some time ago, but I made a
summary of everyone's input?

Michael


--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/24/02 11:31:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:
>
>
> > if they would also make "sets" of Ape
> > City buildings (like the Amphitheater where Ursus gives his

speech to

> > the Citizens Council, or Zira's workplace, or the Tribunal room--

or

> > Ape Management from CONQUEST). It would be cool to be able to set

up a

> > Scene from one of the movies.
> >
> >
>
> It shouldn't be too hard to build such things yourself. I bought

the entire

> Ape City on the back of a chess board when I was a kid. Don't know

whatever

> became of it. I had little trees from train sets and everything.
>
> -- Rory
>

Bought or made?

Michael

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/24/02 11:31:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

> It shouldn't be too hard to build such things yourself. I bought

the entire

> Ape City on the back of a chess board when I was a kid. Don't know

whatever

> became of it. I had little trees from train sets and everything.
>
> -- Rory
>

.html

The truth is I'm just a angry little man who can't get laid.

 

A pox on the inventor of the vibrator.
Makes it tougher on all of us.
<.html

.htmlbut didn't realize until I saw it in the Media Play store where I
work.

You work in a media shop?  Why the hell aren't you recalibrating radio telescopes somewhere?  That totally blows my image of you.  I figured you for a post grad physics student or something.<.html

Whoever's been forging these emails, can you do one from me? Consider
it a challenge. I'll check back tomorrow to see. I haven't changed any
passwords.

> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Catch me if you can!!!!
>
> --- In PotaDG@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > I did not sen that message.
> >
> > This is being investigated by the authorities...whoever it is, you
> > might want to stop because you are breaking the law.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > Fuck you. You American Jackass!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In PotaDG@y..., <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Who cares you aussie ass. This boring group sucks!!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In PotaDG@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > > I would like to personally welcome a third moderator to the group
> > (a scene
> > > > from Planet comes to mind). Anthony B. McElveen contacted me
> > privately
> > > and
> > > > has volunteered to answer the call James and I put out recently.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks also to James for being the technical pilot - I would be
> > lost
> > > without
> > > > his efforts.
> > > >
> > > > I'm really enjoying the quality of posts and I hope this
> > continues - so
> > > > thanks to all in the group who are contributing to this.
> > > >
> > > > Michael

> requires ever more energy consumption the larger it gets). Since our
> bigger brains have more proportional mass than our bodies than
> Australopithecine brains did to their bodies,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you making fun of Michael?

-The real Melkor

.html

The spaceship with a "solar sail" in Boulle's book was nonsense.

You're wrong there.  They're working on that problem as we speak.

<.html

.htmlAs much as I like science, I need it presented in the proper format, i.e. Carl Sagen or James Burke.  Reading Scientific American would be like reading an entire zine of Pat's Posts.<.html

Larger brains would explain why POTA chimps are similar in size and
appearance to humans. All that talk about Novas is getting me hot! What if a
Super Nova explodes in my bed? Does it love me, I wonder? Can it love, I
wonder? - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:17 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Check out the DEC 2002 "Scientific American"
(On-topic)


I subscribe to "Scientific American", a great magazine. I recommend
that everybody here check out the current issue, the DECEMBER 2002
one, because it has some great articles.

Pages 106-115 have an article called "Food for THOUGHT: Dietary change
was a driving force in human evolution", by William R. Leonard. Some
of the basic points this article makes are that changing climatic
conditions caused our knuckle-walking, foraging Australopithecine
ancestors (~ 4 Million years ago) to evolve Bipedalism (which, one
theory goes, reduces the amount of calories it takes for locomotion),
a more "economical" method of moving around, due to the more efficient
way an upright animal regulates body temperature in equatorial areas.
Along with Bipedalism, those ancestors also evolved more complex,
energy-rich diets (from strictly uncooked vegetarian fare to cooked
veggies and protein-rich meat), which was (the article says) a
significant factor in the ballooning size of the hominid Brain (which
requires ever more energy consumption the larger it gets). Since our
bigger brains have more proportional mass than our bodies than
Australopithecine brains did to their bodies, we require more food-
derived energy to make up for this: Bipedalism was one technique which
evolved to supply that energy, by devoting less energy to less-
efficient knuckle-walking locomotion. Food cooking and Carnivorism
also evolved, mostly in the last 300,000 years or so, as a way to fuel
those ever-bigger brains of ours, or so current theory goes.
According to a graph on page 110, a modern chimp has 400 cubic
centimeters of brain, scarcely more than our common ancestor,
Australopithecus afarensis (at 385 cc), whereas modern Homo sapiens
has 1,350 cc (on average), well over 3 times as much noodle! For us
POTA fans, we should wonder how the Apes of POTA morphologically
developed that human-like cranial mass and complexity which they would
HAVE to have in order to be as smart as a modern Human. How do you
take a 400 cc Chimp brain and transmogrify it in ONE generation (!) so
that it has something more like the 1,350 cc of a Human brain? That is
one helluva job of transgenics!

-----------

There's also an article called "The Brightest Explosions in the
Universe" (by Neil Gehrels, Luigi Piro & Peter J.T. Leonard), on pages
84-91. If you'll recall, Rory & I had a back-and-forth discussion
regarding Supernovae and their effects on Earth (if one were to
explode within 1000 lightyears or so).
This article is about those Black Hole-creating Gamma Ray Bursts
(GRB), one extreme form of which is a mega-supernova, called a
"Hypernova". A recent NOVA program on PBS was about this, and the PBS
website probably still has a webpage devoted to this material.
Regarding the destructive potential of a relatively nearby Hypernova
explosion, the first paragraph has this to say:

"Early in the morning of January 23, 1999, a robotic telescope in New
Mexico picked up a faint flash of light in the constellation Corona
Borealis. Though just barely visible through binoculars, it turned out
to be the most brilliant explosion ever witnessed by humanity. We
could see it nine billion light-years away, more than halfway across
the observable universe. If the event had instead taken place a few
thousand light-years away, it would have been as bright as the midday
sun, and it would have dosed Earth with enough radiation to kill off
nearly every living thing."

What kind of stars "go Hypernova"? Stars with masses greater than
about 20 to 30 times that of the Sun, short-lived Giant stars which
"live fast and die young". Unfortunately for us, the star Betelgeuse
(around which Soror revolves) is "20 x Sol" in mass, according to the
Internet Stellar Database website. So, Betelgeuse (which is somewhere
between 300-ish light-years away and 600 LY--the Database mentioned
above has it as 427 LY) is within this mass range of Hypernovae, and
it's CLOSER than the "few thousand light-years" the article mentions
... and nobody knows enough about the supernova/hypernova process to
calculate WHEN that red giant star will reach the end of its life and
go >BOOM<. For all we know, it went Hypernova 425 years ago, and in 2
years we'll SEE that explosion... and then die of radiation poisoning
along with "nearly every living thing" on Earth.

Sobering thought, that.

Patrick

POTA sucks! "Star Wars" rules!

Hey, I didn't say that! What's going on?

I want to join the new group! It's the only sensible thing to do. - - -
Jeff

No! I didn't say that! Someone's screwing with my e-mails!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning


>
> Whoever's been forging these emails, can you do one from me? Consider
> it a challenge. I'll check back tomorrow to see. I haven't changed any
> passwords.
>
>
> > HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Catch me if you can!!!!
> >
> > --- In PotaDG@y..., "whitty@c..." <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > I did not sen that message.
> > >
> > > This is being investigated by the authorities...whoever it is, you
> > > might want to stop because you are breaking the law.
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > --- "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > > Fuck you. You American Jackass!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In PotaDG@y..., <JamesA1102@a...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Who cares you aussie ass. This boring group sucks!!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In PotaDG@y..., "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > > > > I would like to personally welcome a third moderator to the group
> > > (a scene
> > > > > from Planet comes to mind). Anthony B. McElveen contacted me
> > > privately
> > > > and
> > > > > has volunteered to answer the call James and I put out recently.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks also to James for being the technical pilot - I would be
> > > lost
> > > > without
> > > > > his efforts.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm really enjoying the quality of posts and I hope this
> > > continues - so
> > > > > thanks to all in the group who are contributing to this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html <.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:30 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning

Challenge accepted!

 

 

--- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
>
> Whoever's been forging these emails, can you do one from me?  Consider
> it a challenge.  I'll check back tomorrow to see.  I haven't changed any
> passwords.
>

<.html

.html <.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: apjac3955

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:35 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning

Please I didn't write that. I'm too busy staking Natalie.

 

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
>   POTA sucks! "Star Wars" rules!
>
>  Hey, I didn't say that! What's going on?
>
>  I want to join the new group! It's the only sensible thing to do. - - -
> Jeff
>
>  No! I didn't say that! Someone's screwing with my e-mails!

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html <.html

.html <.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:52 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning

You got what you wanted Tiger. So how does it feel?

 

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
>   I think they can only do people who joined that new group. As they said in "The Exorcist": "Take me! Come into me!" - - - Jeff
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Melkor
>   To: pota@y...
>   Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:30 PM
>   Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning
>
>
>   Challenge accepted!
>
>
>   --- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
>   >
>   > Whoever's been forging these emails, can you do one from me?  Consider
>   > it a challenge.  I'll check back tomorrow to see.  I haven't changed any
>   > passwords.
>   >
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.html <.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 9:20 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning

I know you're a punk but what am I?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

 

--- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
>      Try it now, you punk! Love, the real Jeff
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: veetus@e...
>   To: pota@y...
>   Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:52 PM
>   Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning
>
>
>   You got what you wanted Tiger. So how does it feel?
>
>   --- In pota@y..., <veetus@e...> wrote:
>   >   I think they can only do people who joined that new group. As they said in "The Exorcist": "Take me! Come into me!" - - - Jeff
>   >
>   >
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: Melkor
>   >   To: pota@y...
>   >   Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:30 PM
>   >   Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning
>   >
>   >
>   >   Challenge accepted!
>   >
>   >
>   >   --- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
>   >   >
>   >   > Whoever's been forging these emails, can you do one from me?  Consider
>   >   > it a challenge.  I'll check back tomorrow to see.  I haven't changed any
>   >   > passwords.
>   >   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/02 5:51:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, apefan23@... writes:

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Catch me if you can!!!!

What the hell is going on?<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/02 5:52:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

But, Rory, what would you prefer to watch?

Patrick's Einstein show or Serling's Twilight Zone.

I'd watch them both.<.html

.htmlIn a message dated 11/24/02 6:06:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Bought or made?

Michael

I meant to type "built."   Was in a rush to get out the door there.

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 10:06 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning

In a message dated 11/24/02 5:51:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, apefan23@... writes:

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Catch me if you can!!!!

What the hell is going on?

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

<.html

Okay I am sending this to both groups. I have investigated this and it appears
that ALL of the emails have been forged (so far) from either James AOL account
or work account or both. (unless James is doing it himself; probably not).

James, it appears that changing your AOL password (if you did that) may not be
enough. Also, is "nyc.rr.com" part of your work address or do you recognize it
from somewhere? You may want to change passwords on any other accounts you
have too especially if you access AOL from another account or computer.

> Challenge accepted!
>
>
> --- In pota@y..., Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Whoever's been forging these emails, can you do one from me? Consider
> > it a challenge. I'll check back tomorrow to see. I haven't changed any
> > passwords.
> >

.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/02 1:43:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

Okay I am sending this to both groups.  I have investigated this and it appears
that ALL of the emails have been forged (so far) from either James AOL account
or work account or both.  (unless James is doing it himself; probably not).

This sounds like a James stunt!  Ever since he made me look for the helicopter in PLANET I haven't trusted the guy.  Between him and the PN, I just don't know if I want anything to do with POTA fans anymore.  T'aint funny, Megee!

-- Rory

-- Rory<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 10:47 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning

In a message dated 11/25/02 1:43:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

Okay I am sending this to both groups.  I have investigated this and it appears
that ALL of the emails have been forged (so far) from either James AOL account
or work account or both.  (unless James is doing it himself; probably not).

This sounds like a James stunt!  Ever since he made me look for the helicopter in PLANET I haven't trusted the guy.  Between him and the PN, I just don't know if I want anything to do with POTA fans anymore.  T'aint funny, Megee!

-- Rory

-- Rory

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 17:58
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning

  What's the PN?

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 10:47 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Warning

In a message dated 11/25/02 1:43:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

Okay I am sending this to both groups.  I have investigated this and it appears
that ALL of the emails have been forged (so far) from either James AOL account
or work account or both.  (unless James is doing it himself; probably not).

This sounds like a James stunt!  Ever since he made me look for the helicopter in PLANET I haven't trusted the guy.  Between him and the PN, I just don't know if I want anything to do with POTA fans anymore.  T'aint funny, Megee!

-- Rory

-- Rory
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.htmlWho can say 100% that Tom even sent that email?

Yeah, it was in bold type, like Rory uses.  Could this be a clue?  Or is it just a red herring?<.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
Sent: Monday, 25 November 2002 21:58
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Identity Crisis

Who can say 100% that Tom even sent that email?

Yeah, it was in bold type, like Rory uses.  Could this be a clue?  Or is it just a red herring?
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.htmlIn a message dated 11/25/02 5:58:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

Yeah, it was in bold type, like Rory uses.  Could this be a clue?  Or is it just a red herring?

It ain't me, I'm too busy with real life right now to give a shit about this nonsense.

-- Rory<.html

I am sending this to both groups again since both groups have been hit by this.
There is an old internet trick that can be used to forge email. There are also
"hacker" (cracker) tools people can use that expoit the trick without knowing
how it works. I'm not going to explain how to do it but it can be used
to post to moderated groups by posting as moderators or anyone who can
directly post.

All of the email forgeries but one have been posted thru the email server
where James works. The other one (from "James") was posted thru the AOL
email server. The problems may or may not have started when Rory posted
James work email on the old list. I'll be sending some additional specific
info to James.

The latest trick is that the email forger is trying to leave false clues
that Patrick is responsible for them.

(Pretty clever trying to frame Patrick for it but you'll have to do better
than that.)

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>
> Catch me if you can. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

What happens when your kindergarden teacher catches you?

>
> but didn't realize until I saw it in the Media Play store where I
> work.
>
> You work in a media shop? Why the hell aren't you recalibrating radio
> telescopes somewhere?

Because he's not qualified for that. Then again, neither are most people.

> That totally blows my image of you.

Not me.

> I figured you for
> a post grad physics student or something.

I remember the moderator posting here before. But I don't remember
what it was about.

>
> He is, but like I said Tom, he ain't out there (and nor, I suspect, are many
> of the other "lurkers" here).
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> > Sent: Friday, 22 November 2002 17:43
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Moments in history, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > Isn't MFLulder the moderator? If not who is?
>

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----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:37 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Moderator

I remember the moderator posting here before.  But I don't remember
what it was about.

>
> He is, but like I said Tom, he ain't out there (and nor, I suspect, are many
> of the other "lurkers" here).
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> > Sent: Friday, 22 November 2002 17:43
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Moments in history, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > Isn't MFLulder the moderator?  If not who is?
>

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----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 7:02 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Moderator

Who's the guy who used to do the polls? He was the moderator, right? - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:37 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Moderator

I remember the moderator posting here before.  But I don't remember
what it was about.

>
> He is, but like I said Tom, he ain't out there (and nor, I suspect, are many
> of the other "lurkers" here).
>
> Michael
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> > Sent: Friday, 22 November 2002 17:43
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Moments in history, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > Isn't MFLulder the moderator?  If not who is?
>

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