----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar <mlccougar@...>

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 3:27 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Roddy in "Return"?

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, <veetus@e...> wrote:

  Roddy has said he regrets not doing "Beneath", which ruined his
perfect record in the films. However, he did turn down the cartoon.

Where did you find this out about the cartoon? And, did they
approach any of the other Apes actors (film or tv) to do any voice
work on there?


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

>
> > But I'm guessing Rory the Troublemaker would rank
> > "Book" as #1?
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> Yeah, except it wasn't the book that floored me in 1968 and I can't watch the
> novel on DVD (thanks to Fox not having a damn clue what film they SHOULD have
> made in 2001).
>
> -- Rory

>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Never new about those. I wish someone would scan them.
>
> Check this out...
>
> http://goingfaster.com/icarus/fromoutofthesky.htm
>
> Dave
> >
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>
>

>
> Ok, you two ARE entitled to your opinions, but I actually LIKE
> BENEATH, quite a bit actually... I'd maybe rank it as my second
> choice (tied with CONQUEST). I can see where it is the top choice of
> a few of the "voters" in here... I'd say the # 1 reason I like it is
> because it's the only sequel actually set "ON" the Planet of the
> Apes... That's a big plus right there...

> I agree that the background masks will always be a problem, and it

> One more thing... Who was it that said the Steam Bath scene ruined
> BENEATH? Were you serious when you said that? I don't think that
> scene ruins anything... Its far better than (and makes a lot more

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:


Zanuck did say that if there was to be a sequel he was going to take
his time this time and get it right. My feel is the release of any
5 Star would be timed to coincide with that. Though I'm sure the
letters wouldn't hurt, I really don't think we'd be able to change
that time table no matter how many letters we write. It just makes
good business sense.

Well, let's say there isn't the Zanuck sequel, what then? We have to
let them know that we want those special editions...

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar <mlccougar@...>

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 9:14 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: A Call to Arms

I wonder if it works in reverse too? Escape was the last one I got
to see and I think it's the weakest of the five!

Escape weaker than Battle?  Are you mad? 

I gotta go along with the statement that ESCAPE "WAS" the weakest of
the 5... "WHY"? because as I've stated in here several times, it's
too damn light. I'm not alone in this either, I just read a review of
the DVDs, and according to that reveiwer, many fans feel ESCAPE is
the weakest because of the same reason...

I HATE the way they have Zira "loving" that ugly dress... It seems
that in the comic "novelization", they have her saying something
like "They're all so ugly, but I suppose I'll take that one..." I'd
think they would look at human things in such a way... Same with the
line "Cornelius, how do you find our women..." To which in the movie
it's all cutesy and he says "Very human..." Where as in the comic
adaption and/or the novelization he says "Vey human... Really sir we
don't have the same standards of beauty, so your question was
dumb..." (NOT the exact line, but something like that..)I guess I
just don't like the way that they have those two just loving our
society... I'd still think not only would they be in shock of it, but
that they'd fear it too... That's one of the biggest things I'd
change. I'd keep the story itself, but the script would definately be
darker... It wouldn't have been a "comedic" Apes film if I had my way.


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----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar <mlccougar@...>

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 9:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Now, WRITE LIKE APES!!! (or Please Contact Fox...)

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:


Zanuck did say that if there was to be a sequel he was going to take
his time  this time and get it right.  My feel is the release of any
5 Star would be timed to coincide with that.  Though I'm sure the
letters wouldn't hurt, I really don't think we'd be able to change
that time table no matter how many letters we write.  It just makes
good business sense.

Well, let's say there isn't the Zanuck sequel, what then? We have to
let them know that we want those special editions...






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 2:08 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: A Call to Arms

I HATE the way they have Zira "loving" that ugly dress...

You can't judge by today's standards.  Burgundy velvet capes were the height of fashion in the early 70s.  Didn't you ever see Nanny And The Professor?  Look at that corny plaid Herb Tarlek suit they put Cornelius in!  I'm not sure that was fashionable even then!  If you're such a fashion critic what would you have her wear?  DKNY?
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

>
> That's right about the projector too.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Maxwell [alan@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 8 December 2002 6:28 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] comic idea
>
> "Melkor" <melkor@...> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder why no one (Marvel?) ever did comic stories from the TV
> series?
>
> As Dave mentioned, the UK annuals had comic strips and text stories
> based on the TV series (coincidentally I've been putting together an
> article on these strips for a future fanzine issue) and as Michael
> pointed out there are also foreign language comics based on the TV
> series. But if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the Chad Valley projector set
> also based on the TV series? I think this was some kind of comic strip
> adventure, yes? (I am saying this from memory, I don't actually own
> it)
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>
>

> That's what I mean.
>
> Another one for Patrick to explain!
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Melkor [melkor@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 7 December 2002 11:36 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] As the Planet of the Apes Turns...
> "Patrick" again! ...
>
>
> I kind of liked them. But the apes were fatter naked than wearing
> their suits just like CONQUEST.

>
> In all fairness I must say Alex had a few beefs with people.he was my
> first (how sweet!).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 8 December 2002 8:28 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] (Off Topic) Troublemaker's List
>
> Before James joined I was extremely impressed by how well people
> got along. As soon as James joined he immediately got into a flame war
> with
> Michael, and then Patrick, Rory, and later somebody else (Anthony?).
>
>
> Sounds to me like James is the trouble maker. Oops! I guess I'm on his
> list now! Oh well, at least I'll be in good company.

>
> You are a merciful and wondrous leader, oh kind sir.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 7 December 2002 2:06 PM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] A Call to Arms
>
> Well, well. Every movie has at least one vote, except POTA2001 since I
> mercifully let Michael give a real answer. - - - Jeff

>
> I think most critics ratings systems agree with mine...
>
> Planet ****
> Escape ***1/2
> Conquest ***
> Beneath ** 1/2
> Battle **
>

>
> Good point. Patrick, how are you going to "unflub" THIS one for

>
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
>
> Good point. Patrick, how are you going to "unflub" THIS one for
your novel? Or are you finally going to admit defeat and that not
everything can be explained?
>
>
> > That's what I mean.
> >
> > Another one for Patrick to explain!
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Melkor [melkor@e...]
> > I kind of liked them. But the apes were fatter naked than
wearing their suits just like CONQUEST.

>
> No, guys... not EVERYTHING can be explained ("unflubbed")... but SO

> MUCH of it can, that I ain't stoppin'! If the human trainers in Ape
> Management aren't above using electroshock to "electrically
> condition" the Apes to respond to the "negative imperative" ("No!")
> command, then they ain't above starving the Apes too, and using food
> as a "reward" for those Behaviors they wish to instill in them.
>
> Hah! So THERE!
>
> Patrick

>
> That's right about the projector too.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Maxwell [alan@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 8 December 2002 6:28 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] comic idea
>
> "Melkor" <melkor@...> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder why no one (Marvel?) ever did comic stories from the TV
> series?
>
> As Dave mentioned, the UK annuals had comic strips and text stories
> based on the TV series (coincidentally I've been putting together an
> article on these strips for a future fanzine issue) and as Michael
> pointed out there are also foreign language comics based on the TV
> series. But if I'm not mistaken, wasn't the Chad Valley projector set
> also based on the TV series? I think this was some kind of comic strip
> adventure, yes? (I am saying this from memory, I don't actually own
> it)
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
>

>
> In all fairness I must say Alex had a few beefs with people.he was my
> first (how sweet!).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: LordTZer0@... [LordTZer0@...]
> Sent: Sunday, 8 December 2002 8:28 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] (Off Topic) Troublemaker's List
>
> Before James joined I was extremely impressed by how well people
> got along. As soon as James joined he immediately got into a flame

> with
> Michael, and then Patrick, Rory, and later somebody else (Anthony?).
>
>
> Sounds to me like James is the trouble maker. Oops! I guess I'm on

> list now! Oh well, at least I'll be in good company.

>
> You are a merciful and wondrous leader, oh kind sir.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 7 December 2002 2:06 PM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] A Call to Arms
>
> Well, well. Every movie has at least one vote, except POTA2001 since

> mercifully let Michael give a real answer. - - - Jeff

> I agree. This was the first movie I ever saw that was so very

> to anything else.

> The apes are obviously very self-conscious about thier weight -
> this is why they go to saunas, to try and shake off those unsightly
> and unwanted extra pounds.

> Escape weaker than Battle? Are you mad? I just don't understand

> who have seen the series out of order. I think their view must be

> Okay but how does Caesar suddenly get fatter after taking off his
> circus clothes?

>
> > BATTLE (9.5)
> >
>
> PLANET (9.0)
>
> I'M DYING OVER HERE!!!!!
>

> Zanuck doesn't have any say in the matter.

>
> > I HATE the way they have Zira "loving" that ugly dress...

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:

> You can't judge by today's standards. Burgundy velvet capes were
the heightof fashion in the early 70s. Didn't you ever see Nanny And
The Professor? Look at that corny plaid Herb Tarlek suit they put
Cornelius in! I'm not sure that was fashionable even then! If
you're such a fashion critic what would you have her wear? DKNY?

I'm not saying that dress and cape are ugly by the standards of now
OR then... I'm saying that BOTH Zira AND Cornelius look horrible in
their "human wear"... I still think it woulda been better if they had
them looking at our stuff as "ugly". As I said in last night's post,
in the comic adaption (which was written using the original script!)
they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still
think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human
society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that
includes clothing...

>
> > They even explain some things in BENEATH that PLANET never does, like the
> > lightning with no rain.
> >
> >
>
> Oh NO!!!! Now wait a minute! You're not telling me that the "lightening
> without rain" in the first film was caused by the mutants in the second, even
> though when they made the first movie they had no idea they'd make the
> second? Please tell me you're not saying that. I feel another brain seizure
> coming on!
>
> -- Rory
>

----- Original Message -----

From: patrickmichaeltilton <patrickmichaeltilton@...>

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:50 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Rating the Planet of the Apes movies

I kinda look at the sequelization of "PLANET OF THE APES" as like a
family having children... children born with developmental
disabilities. Each sequel had aspects to it that were open to
criticism (pull-over masks, bad "primitive" apesuits, too-comedic,
etc.), yet for the most part this was due entirely to budgetary
restrictions. Imagine how horrible the BOND franchise would be if
each subsequent film had its budget slashed in half... in fourths...
in eighths... etc.! Yet, despite their more-than-adequate budgets,
most of the Bond films (after the Connery years) have been a notch or
so down in overall quality (in my opinion, of course), reverting
mostly to the "formula" for an "average" Bond film.

As each "malformed" child/sequel in the POTA saga appeared, it was
probably as good as it could be given the lowered budgets: because
the STORIES were always top-notch, building on what the first film
had to say (and how it said it). Unlike Ted Post (and others), I
think it was brilliant for the world to be destroyed at the end of
BENEATH; imagine a STAR TREK film where the heroes FAIL to save the
day (the Earth, some other planet, whatever)--or, like in Ellison's
episode "City on the Edge of Forever", where Kirk & Spock DO save the
day... but at an almost unbearable price--we'll NEVER see such an
ending nowadays in a franchise like STAR TREK, which will only play
it safe, keeping its main characters as heroes and ONLY as heroes.

In BENEATH, we have a society of intelligent, telepathic, INSANE
human beings--they live in the corpse of one of a long-dead culture's
highest achievements (New York City), and they KNOW that it was
rendered a ruin from Nuclear bombardment and fall-out... yet, instead
of developing a loathing of destructive nuclear technology (Bombs),
they WORSHIP it, perpetuating the Doomsday Bomb (perpetuating the
potential to destroy everything). To all outward appearances, they
seem like reasonable people (as Caspay comes across, especially,
during Brent's interrogation), yet their inner hideousness is
revealed during their ceremony of Religion: both LITERALLY (their
radiation-scarred skinless faces) and FIGURATIVELY (their mock-Mass
of the "divine" Bomb).

In ESCAPE, yeah, it gets maybe too "comedic" at times... but this
helps to contrast when things start getting dark. When Hasslein has
the Apes interrogated by the CIA goons, and the loop-tape of Zira
saying "dissec...dissec...dissec...dissec..." plays--and we all KNOW
that this refers to her former job as "a trained vet"/"animal
psychologist-psychiatrist"/vivisectionist, cutting up human beings as
we do frogs in Biology class--whatever light-hearted humor ESCAPE had
presented earlier is soon forgotten. I was too young to appreciate
much of this the first time I saw it (when I was around 10 years
old), but those who WERE old enough and had seen Zira and Cornelius
in the first 2 films must have been shocked to see these amusing,
charming, beloved characters KILLED OFF brutally at the end.

In CONQUEST, I would have preferred a better musical score--
preferably by Goldsmith (whose "scarecrows" track from PLANET is
purloined for the ending, after Caesar declares, "Tonight we have
seen the birth of the planet of the Apes!"). In particular, I dislike
the "jaunty" feel of Caesar's experiences at Ape Management, when the
trainers are teaching the group of Apes how to wash their hands, to
mop, to make beds, etc. For some reason, the director (Thompson)
wanted to go for a "lighter" feel in these scenes, and the music Tom
Scott wrote for it made it less powerful than it should have been. I
didn't get a chance to see CONQUEST until it came out on VHS and
BETA, so I first experienced the story by reading John Jakes'
excellent adaptation (and Marvel's comic-book version, based on
Jakes' novelization and the screenplay)... and, in a way, I sorta
felt cheated when I finally DID get to see it on tape. Had the film
had as dark/oppressive/Orwellian a feel as Jakes evoked in his novel,
I would probably have voted for CONQUEST as my favorite APES film...
but Thompson compromised the mood of his film somewhat, I think.
Despite these misgivings, though, I still love the film--it's
a "malformed child" which is still part of the family.

Although BATTLE is, undoubtedly, the "least good/great" of the APES
movies, and would be much better if it had had not only more money to
do what it needed to do, but also had the "extended scenes" included,
with the Doomsday Bomb... it is still an important "ending" to the
saga. As our many disputations regarding the Circularity/Non-
circularity of the Timeline shows, the Future of the Planet Earth
hinges wholly on WHAT people do with the sure knowledge of the
INEVITABLE outcome of violent, armed conflict. Do we choose to pursue
a path to Peace? or do we allow our animosities--even our justified
judgmental attitudes towards our Enemies--to push us along with the
currents of the "mainstream" of "human History"? Remember when Lisa
chides young Cornelius for "playing War" with sticks-as-guns? "War is
not a game..." she says, and her son submissively promises to stop
playing the game... and yet this does not save him from the conflict
being waged between Caesar and Aldo. From Aldo's perspective, it
probably seems as if Caesar--the Apes' "king"--has betrayed his
people, allowing humans to live amongst them... even given positions
of authority (MacDonald and "Teacher" Abe). Has Caesar forgotten how
they brutally enslaved us? How they ravaged the World in "the vilest
war in HUMAN history"? Don't the humans DESERVE to suffer the most
degrading of existences--as, at best, a slave? Whatever happened
to "the slave's right to punish his persecutors", especially after
World War 3 rendered his own civilization dead?
Aldo had what he sees as a valid position--one which Caesar himself
agreed with... until Lisa's protest ("No!") softened his resolve. One
might say that Kolp's invasion of Ape City PROVED Aldo's point about
how Humans are NOT to be trusted; no wonder he had them thrown into
the Corral!
The tragedy is that Aldo's secret nighttime meeting had been
overheard by the innocent child, Cornelius. Aldo had little choice
but to do what he did; could he just run off into the woods with his
gorilla friends, and let Cornelius dash back home to expose his plans
to "crush" his father? Aldo had said that he would "make the
Future... with THIS!" (the sword)... and, it seems, that is EXACTLY
what he accomplishes when he uses it to chop the branch on which
Cornelius clings. Once he did that, the Future was (perhaps) "made".
Caesar's dynastic ambitions ("someday... you'll be as tall as a
King!") are destroyed... Caesar's willingness to "kill an evil enemy
so that good should prevail" harkens back to his chat with MacDonald,
before MacD tells him about the Archives Tapes of the "Ape-onauts",
when Caesar mentions how Armando had taught him that "we must love
one another or die", and how "If my father and mother (whom I was too
young to remember) had only lived, they might have taught me whether
it was right to kill an evil enemy so that good should prevail".
Aldo "murdered an ape child", the very definition of Evil: the murder
of the Innocent (as Hasslein attempted to do to Caesar when he was
still in Zira's womb). Yet Caesar personally fails to follow his
foster-father Armando's sentiment to "love your enemies" (as
Jesus "commanded"), "or die". Caesar wants to "change the Future" and
prevent "the destruction of Earth"... yet he himself gives in to the
very personal need to Kill that which is Evil. Yet Aldo--who is
wracked by guilt (especially when the entire community chants "Ape
has killed Ape" over and over and over again)--had a valid perception
of Caesar as being Evil, leading his own people down a path which
would lead to their destruction by the Enemy who would re-subjugate
them if they were to win the "battle". Think of it: if Aldo had not
killed Kolp as he was retreating in the old schoolbus... what would
Kolp have done? Would Kolp have just licked his wounds back in the
ruins of Breck's old city? Kolp had told Alma (in the
screenplay), "Either we have to cage the beast, Alma... or destroy
the whole Zoo..." Having failed to "cage the beast" (defeat Caesar &
re-enslave the Apes), wouldn't he then resort to "destroying the
whole Zoo"? Wouldn't he have gotten back to his City and personally
detonated the Doomsday Bomb? I think it likely... which, then, means
that Caesar and his people have ALDO to thank that the planet isn't
wiped out then and there. By killing Kolp, Aldo prevents him from
detonating the Bomb... and Mendez, of course, helps to prevent Alma
from fulfilling Kolp's last wish by convincing her that the
Bomb "must be respected--even venerated". The Ursus-like Apes-vs-
"unsimian" Enemy conflict from BENEATH is what SAVES the planet from
Kolp's world-killing intentions... as, too, does Mendez's Bomb-
worshipping proclivity, also echoed from BENEATH. What killed the
planet of the apes in 3955 "later" ("before"?) ends up SAVING the
world from imminent destruction... postponing it, anyway, for almost
2,000 years...

There's more to "BATTLE" than its detractors seem willing to see.
Forgive its low-budget (they couldn't help that!)--it's a
worthy "final chapter" to the Saga. And the music is much better than
CONQUEST had to work with. Like the previous sequels, it is
somewhat "malformed" or disabled due to circumstances beyond its
control... but that which it COULD control (the STORY) made it worthy
to be a part of the Saga of the PLANET OF THE APES.

Patrick






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
They even explain some things in BENEATH that PLANET never does, like
the lightning with no rain.

Oh NO!!!! Now wait a minute! You're not telling me that
the "lightening without rain" in the first film was caused by the
mutants in the second, even though when they made the first movie
they had no idea they'd make the second? Please tell me you're not
saying that. I feel another brain seizure coming on!

-- Rory

OF COURSE HE'S TELLING YOU THAT!!! Damnit, didn't you know that the
odd atmospheric conditions are caused by the Mutants, and the
line "All my life I've awaited your coming and dreaded it, like death
itself..." is said by Zaius, because he knew Taylor was going to
crash land in the future? Screw the fact that when these things were
initially set down in a script there was no intention of a sequel...
There were Mutants and a "circular timeline" (where Zaius knew about
Taylor) when you were just that little kid being embarrassed by your
younger brother saying "Look, a hinny..." Were you that damn ashamed
of him that you didn't catch these revelations?!? What's it gonna
take to make you see these things?!?

(**PS: Melkor, I'm really not making fun of your saying that... I
mean what you said that those "loose ends" are tied up in BENEATH is
really not that out of line from a sequel point of view... I CAN see
where you're coming from when you said that... BUT, I'll never see
how anyone could think that what Zaius said is "because he knew"
Taylor was coming. He says that because he always dreaded and feared
an intelligent human coming on the scene and destroying the Ape's
civilization... He knew jacksh*t about a man from the past named
Taylor...

----- Original Message -----

From: Alan Maxwell

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:50 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: A Call to Arms

"Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:
> I agree.  This was the first movie I ever saw that was so very
different
> to anything else.

I also think, as others have since pointed out, that it probably has
something to do with this also being the only other film in the series
to be set on the "proper" Planet of the Apes too. I definitely reckon
that had something to do with it.

Alan


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:01 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: A Call to Arms

In a message dated 12/8/02 9:31:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

I think most critics ratings systems agree with mine...

Planet        ****
Escape      ***1/2
Conquest   ***
Beneath     ** 1/2
Battle         **

I agree.

-- me

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:09 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Roddy in "Return"?

In a message dated 12/8/02 10:51:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

I think it's kid of cool that no one was in all of them. 

There was someone who was in all of them.  Gossip columnist James Bacon, friend of Arthur P. Jacobs.

-- Rory

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:16 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: A Call to Arms

In a message dated 12/9/02 12:15:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

I gotta go along with the statement that ESCAPE "WAS" the weakest of
the 5... "WHY"? because as I've stated in here several times, it's
too damn light. I'm not alone in this either, I just read a review of
the DVDs, and according to that reveiwer, many fans feel ESCAPE is
the weakest because of the same reason...

ESCAPE was the only APES film that made me cry.  DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL for saying it's the weakest!   BATTLE made me cry too but that was after I went back and saw it for the second time and realized it sucked.

-- Rory
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----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 4:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Rating the Planet of the Apes movies

In ESCAPE, yeah, it gets maybe too "comedic" at times... but this helps to contrast when things start getting dark.

I for one am glad that Kim got to have a few comic moments.  Most of her films, including the Ape films tended to be on the dark side.  Even her debut film, but at least she got to sing a little in that one.
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----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar <mlccougar@...>

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:09 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Now, WRITE LIKE APES!!! (or Please Contact Fox...)

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, <veetus@e...> wrote:
>   Zanuck doesn't have any say in the matter.

I know he doesn't have any say in the matter as far as any "special
editions" of the APES DVDs goes, but I was saying we should continue
to write into FOX, because T seemed to be saying he thought if
there "were" to be any, they'd coincide their release(s) with a new
Zanuck APES film. I was saying "keep on writing, just in case the man
who drove the APES name into the ground isn't able to cover the
coffin with another one..."


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----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar <mlccougar@...>

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 5:19 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Zira's wardrobe

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@A... wrote:
>
> > I HATE the way they have Zira "loving" that ugly dress...

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:

> You can't judge by today's standards.  Burgundy velvet capes were
the heightof fashion in the early 70s.  Didn't you ever see Nanny And
The Professor? Look at that corny plaid Herb Tarlek suit they put
Cornelius in!  I'm not sure that was fashionable even then!  If
you're such a fashion critic what would you have her wear?  DKNY?

I'm not saying that dress and cape are ugly by the standards of now
OR then... I'm saying that BOTH Zira AND Cornelius look horrible in
their "human wear"... I still think it woulda been better if they had
them looking at our stuff as "ugly". As I said in last night's post,
in the comic adaption (which was written using the original script!)
they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still
think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human
society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that
includes clothing...


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>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> They even explain some things in BENEATH that PLANET never does, like
> the lightning with no rain.
>
> Oh NO!!!! Now wait a minute! You're not telling me that
> the "lightening without rain" in the first film was caused by the
> mutants in the second, even though when they made the first movie
> they had no idea they'd make the second? Please tell me you're not
> saying that. I feel another brain seizure coming on!
>
> -- Rory
>
> OF COURSE HE'S TELLING YOU THAT!!! Damnit, didn't you know that the
> odd atmospheric conditions are caused by the Mutants, and the
> line "All my life I've awaited your coming and dreaded it, like death
> itself..." is said by Zaius, because he knew Taylor was going to
> crash land in the future? Screw the fact that when these things were
> initially set down in a script there was no intention of a sequel...

> There were Mutants and a "circular timeline" (where Zaius knew about
> Taylor) when you were just that little kid being embarrassed by your

> younger brother saying "Look, a hinny..." Were you that damn ashamed
> of him that you didn't catch these revelations?!? What's it gonna
> take to make you see these things?!?

>
> (**PS: Melkor, I'm really not making fun of your saying that... I
> mean what you said that those "loose ends" are tied up in BENEATH is
> really not that out of line from a sequel point of view... I CAN see
> where you're coming from when you said that... BUT, I'll never see
> how anyone could think that what Zaius said is "because he knew"
> Taylor was coming.

> He says that because he always dreaded and feared
> an intelligent human coming on the scene and destroying the Ape's
> civilization... He knew jacksh*t about a man from the past named
> Taylor...

> they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still=20
> think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human=20
> society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that=20
> includes clothing...

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 9:09 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Rory's "Battle" Cry

I don't think anyone is likeable in "Beneath").

Yeah!  That Zira! . . . Fixing Brent's arm, and hiding him and Nova, and helping him escape to find Taylor, and arguing for peace!  That Bitch! 
???
  . .
  ~

----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:57 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] PLANET'S prophecies

>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> They even explain some things in BENEATH that PLANET never does, like
> the lightning with no rain. 
> 
> Oh NO!!!!  Now wait a minute!   You're not telling me that
> the "lightening without rain" in the first film was caused by the
> mutants in the second, even though when they made the first movie
> they had no idea they'd make the second?  Please tell me you're not
> saying that.  I feel another brain seizure coming on!
> 
> -- Rory
> 
> OF COURSE HE'S TELLING YOU THAT!!! Damnit, didn't you know that the
> odd atmospheric conditions are caused by the Mutants, and the
> line "All my life I've awaited your coming and dreaded it, like death
> itself..." is said by Zaius, because he knew Taylor was going to
> crash land in the future? Screw the fact that when these things were
> initially set down in a script there was no intention of a sequel...

Since all five movies are in the same universe you have to consider
the evidence from ALL the movies in my view.  Whether they intended
sequels or not is irrelevent because the sequels are part of the "canon".


> There were Mutants and a "circular timeline" (where Zaius knew about
> Taylor) when you were just that little kid being embarrassed by your

The "circular timeline" idea is for newbie fans who don't know any better.


> younger brother saying "Look, a hinny..." Were you that damn ashamed
> of him that you didn't catch these revelations?!? What's it gonna
> take to make you see these things?!?

Huh?

>
> (**PS: Melkor, I'm really not making fun of your saying that... I
> mean what you said that those "loose ends" are tied up in BENEATH is
> really not that out of line from a sequel point of view... I CAN see
> where you're coming from when you said that... BUT, I'll never see
> how anyone could think that what Zaius said is "because he knew"
> Taylor was coming.

Neither can I. Patrick said that (I think) not me. Zaius sure as hell didn't
know about Taylor coming.  That's damn idiotic! 


> He says that because he always dreaded and feared
> an intelligent human coming on the scene and destroying the Ape's
> civilization... He knew jacksh*t about a man from the past named
> Taylor...

True and True.


--
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----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:12 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Zira's wardrobe

>   they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still=20
>   think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human=20
>   society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that=20
>   includes clothing...

Why? Zira and Cornelius like humans and in PLANET Zira seems to have
some special fascination with humans.  I think we would expect Zira to be
extremely curious about human society, not to 'hold it at arms length'.
Zira was the first to talk to humans because she was impatient with Milo's
advice to stay silent.

Now if Zaius had went back in time (that would be interesting!) he would
look at human society as something to hold at arms length.


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----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:49 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Zira's wardrobe

  Yeah, or Ursus! Someone should write an alternate history where Zauis and Ursus find out about the ship and go back in it. - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 11:12 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Zira's wardrobe

>   they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still=20
>   think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human=20
>   society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that=20
>   includes clothing...

Why? Zira and Cornelius like humans and in PLANET Zira seems to have
some special fascination with humans.  I think we would expect Zira to be
extremely curious about human society, not to 'hold it at arms length'.
Zira was the first to talk to humans because she was impatient with Milo's
advice to stay silent.

Now if Zaius had went back in time (that would be interesting!) he would
look at human society as something to hold at arms length.


Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

>
> Yeah, or Ursus! Someone should write an alternate history where Zauis and=
> Ursus find out about the ship and go back in it. - - - Jeff
>
>
>
> > they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still=3D2=
> 0
> > think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human=3D20
> > society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that=3D2=
> 0
> > includes clothing...
>
> Why? Zira and Cornelius like humans and in PLANET Zira seems to have
> some special fascination with humans. I think we would expect Zira to be
> extremely curious about human society, not to 'hold it at arms length'.
> Zira was the first to talk to humans because she was impatient with Milo'=
> s=20
> advice to stay silent.
>
> Now if Zaius had went back in time (that would be interesting!) he would
> look at human society as something to hold at arms length.
>

>
> Yeah, Zauis says, "Where's your nest, Taylor?" If he knew who Taylor was,=
> he wouldn't be asking all those questions. It'd be "Hello, goodbye". "All =
> my life I've awaited your coming and dreaded it" refers to the resurgence o=
> f Man. On the other hand, when Michael says, "All my life I've awaited your=
> coming and dreaded it", he's referring specifically to Patrick. - - Jeff

>
> > Yeah, or Ursus! Someone should write an alternate history where Zauis and
> > Ursus find out about the ship and go back in it. - - - Jeff
> >
> >
>
> I could do that.
>
> -- Rory

----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:37 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] orangutan astronaut

One of the scripts I read (Oliver Stone's?) began with an orangutan astronaut
crash landing in New York City.

>
>   Yeah, or Ursus! Someone should write an alternate history where Zauis and=
>  Ursus find out about the ship and go back in it. - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>   >   they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still=3D2=
> 0
>   >   think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human=3D20
>   >   society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that=3D2=
> 0
>   >   includes clothing...
>
>   Why? Zira and Cornelius like humans and in PLANET Zira seems to have
>   some special fascination with humans.  I think we would expect Zira to be
>   extremely curious about human society, not to 'hold it at arms length'.
>   Zira was the first to talk to humans because she was impatient with Milo'=
> s=20
>   advice to stay silent.
>
>   Now if Zaius had went back in time (that would be interesting!) he would
>   look at human society as something to hold at arms length.
>


--
Get yourself kicked out of the Stalinist group without even posting there in
two easy steps...

Step 1: Quote in this group what the owner posted about Trouble Makers
  in order to get put on strict moderation without notice where posts have
  taken up to 5 hours to go through.
Step 2: Report in this group that you were threatened by the owner and put
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----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:49 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] orangutan astronaut

  That was the Sam Hamm script for Chris Columbus. The Oliver Stone script was "Lord of the Rings" influenced and was set in ancient Africa. - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:37 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] orangutan astronaut

One of the scripts I read (Oliver Stone's?) began with an orangutan astronaut
crash landing in New York City.

>
>   Yeah, or Ursus! Someone should write an alternate history where Zauis and=
>  Ursus find out about the ship and go back in it. - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>   >   they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still=3D2=
> 0
>   >   think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human=3D20
>   >   society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that=3D2=
> 0
>   >   includes clothing...
>
>   Why? Zira and Cornelius like humans and in PLANET Zira seems to have
>   some special fascination with humans.  I think we would expect Zira to be
>   extremely curious about human society, not to 'hold it at arms length'.
>   Zira was the first to talk to humans because she was impatient with Milo'=
> s=20
>   advice to stay silent.
>
>   Now if Zaius had went back in time (that would be interesting!) he would
>   look at human society as something to hold at arms length.
>


--
Get yourself kicked out of the Stalinist group without even posting there in
two easy steps...

Step 1: Quote in this group what the owner posted about Trouble Makers
  in order to get put on strict moderation without notice where posts have
  taken up to 5 hours to go through.
Step 2: Report in this group that you were threatened by the owner and put
  on strict moderation for Step 1.

> only. Then BENEATH comes out and warps the impression of the first and far
> superior movie. It was HORRIBLE!

>
> NEVER! NEVER! NEVER!
>
> -- Rory

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] BENEATH & BATTLE


>
> > only. Then BENEATH comes out and warps the impression of the first and
far
> > superior movie. It was HORRIBLE!

The biggest problem with Beneath was that the whole script approach had to
change when Charlton Heston refused to play more than a cameo role in the
movie. They couldn't do a complete rehash of the first movie with another
astronaut because it would have been repetitive, and I'd imagine that the
obvious direction was to explore a post-nuclear human society.

Having said that, the movie was a dated mirror of the times. Transferring
the whole anti-war motif to the chimps was ludicrious, not to mention the
studio-issue mutant dialogue and makeup, and that sing-along bomb song (if
there was ever a MST3K moment in the POTA series , it was the service in St.
Patricks). While the overall movie was awful, I thought the ending's message
was powerful: lack of interspecies (interracial?) trust leading to
thermonuclear destruction. It ties neatly into the speech made by Taylor
about there having to be something "better than man", in that there wasn't,
at least on Earth.

Some of the other script ideas were better, like the one where Taylor
ultimately led the re-educated humans in overthrowing the ape order, and
turning the apes back into semi-articulate brutes. That would have had an
equally pessimistic message as the final movie (the more things change...),
but one a little more hopeful for humanity.

> BENEATH has two conservatives arguing about war. BATTLE has two liberals
> arguing about war. Urses wants to launch an attack. Zaius wants to wait
until
> they have more information. Mandemus is in favor of unilateral
disarmament.
> Caesar wants to keep their weapons stockpile for self-defense. Between
the
> four of them you have almost the full range of opinions about war.

Likewise for Kolp vs. Mendez in the underground city. Mendex gave a strong
argument about letting neighbors living in peace, and (at least in the
novelization and the Japanese laserdisc), he argues that the bomb should be
left undetonated, if not venerated, as a symbol that mankind can learn its
lesson and become "something better". Other than xenophobia and paranoia,
his descendants might have done that (at least among one another).

Of cousre, if you consider POTA history to be elliptical, the "liberals"
(Mendex on the human side and Caesar) lost in the end. Caesar keeping the
weapons because the "danger always remains" led to the gorilla army,
stratification of the apes (those with the guns and power vs. not), and
ultimately the invasion of the Forbidden Zone in BENEATH. Mendex keeping the
bomb led to its worship as the "holy weapon of peace" and the destruction of
Earth.

>
> Yeah, Zauis says, "Where's your nest, Taylor?" If he knew who Taylor

> he wouldn't be asking all those questions. It'd be "Hello, goodbye".

> my life I've awaited your coming and dreaded it" refers to the

> f Man. On the other hand, when Michael says, "All my life I've awaited

> coming and dreaded it", he's referring specifically to Patrick. - -