> I think a "flame" is a PERSONAL attack (like when I call Patty an

> I also have a rather large bug in my ass about the (what seems to

> As far as I can tell Patrick hasn't stopped, but nobody makes a

> There's nothing wrong with having a sense of humour, but when there

>
> So how about it? Can we now hear what individuals really think of

> I'm asking for honesty here, but I'm not expecting it because there

>
> Michael

> >
> > Yeah, Zaius says, "Where's your nest, Taylor?" If he knew who

> In a message dated 12/8/02 10:45:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> melkor@e... writes:
>
>
> > They even explain some things in BENEATH that PLANET never does,

> >
> >
>
> Oh NO!!!! Now wait a minute! You're not telling me that

>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:

<they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still
think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human
society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that
includes clothing...>

*** Why? Zira and Cornelius like humans and in PLANET Zira seems to
have some special fascination with humans. I think we would expect
Zira to be extremely curious about human society, not to 'hold it at
arms length'.Zira was the first to talk to humans because she was
impatient with Milo's advice to stay silent.**

< Not entirely true... She is "fascinated with them" as people might
be fascinated by an "intelligent" animal... She dissected them,
experimented with them, and treated them as the beasts they are in
her time... And I'm not quite sure where you think Cornelius likes
humans... Yes, he studied them, but studying something doesn't mean
you actually "like" them, not when you're doing it from a scientific
point of view... >

----- Original Message -----

From: Stuart Drucker

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:00 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] BENEATH & BATTLE

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] BENEATH & BATTLE


>
> > only.  Then BENEATH comes out and warps the impression of the first and
far
> > superior movie.  It was HORRIBLE!

The biggest problem with Beneath was that the whole script approach had to
change when Charlton Heston refused to play more than a cameo role in the
movie. They couldn't do a complete rehash of the first movie with another
astronaut because it would have been repetitive, and I'd imagine that the
obvious direction was to explore a post-nuclear human society.

Having said that, the movie was a dated mirror of the times. Transferring
the whole anti-war motif to the chimps was ludicrious, not to mention the
studio-issue mutant dialogue and makeup, and that sing-along bomb song (if
there was ever a MST3K moment in the POTA series , it was the service in St.
Patricks). While the overall movie was awful, I thought the ending's message
was powerful: lack of interspecies (interracial?) trust leading to
thermonuclear destruction.  It ties neatly into the speech made by Taylor
about there having to be something "better than man", in that there wasn't,
at least on Earth.

Some of the other script ideas were better, like the one where Taylor
ultimately led the re-educated humans in overthrowing the ape order, and
turning the apes back into semi-articulate brutes. That would have had an
equally pessimistic message as the final movie (the more things change...),
but one a little more hopeful for humanity.

> BENEATH has two conservatives arguing about war.  BATTLE has two liberals
> arguing about war.  Urses wants to launch an attack.  Zaius wants to wait
until
> they have more information.  Mandemus is in favor of unilateral
disarmament.
> Caesar wants to keep their weapons stockpile for self-defense.  Between
the
> four of them you have almost the full range of opinions about war.

Likewise for Kolp vs. Mendez in the underground city. Mendex gave a strong
argument about letting neighbors living in peace, and (at least in the
novelization and the Japanese laserdisc), he argues that the bomb should be
left undetonated, if not venerated, as a symbol that mankind can learn its
lesson and become "something better". Other than xenophobia and paranoia,
his descendants might have done that (at least among one another).

Of cousre, if you consider POTA history to be elliptical, the "liberals"
(Mendex on the human side and Caesar) lost in the end. Caesar keeping the
weapons because the "danger always remains" led to the gorilla army,
stratification of the apes (those with the guns and power vs. not), and
ultimately the invasion of the Forbidden Zone in BENEATH. Mendex keeping the
bomb led to its worship as the "holy weapon of peace" and the destruction of
Earth.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

> Man, I'm gone for a few months, and I come back to find the group

> with in-fighting. What the hell happened here? This used to be a

> place. Why don't those of you involved in the fight just ignore

> instead of perpetuating this ridiculous penis-pulling competition?

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Whitty

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 12:41 PM

Subject: RE: [Planet of the Apes] Mad Max (OT)

All they need now is a script.

 

I think Miller learned from “Thunderdome” (hope so).

 

-----Original Message-----
From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 11 December 2002 3:59 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Mad Max (OT)

 

  T already mentioned this on another group. Mel Gibson has signed to do another "Mad Max" for $25 million. We've talked "Mad Max" in this group before, I considered it the POTA of the '80's. Anyway, it's going to cost $104 million and is being made by FOX (tying in to what I said yesterday about their search for a franchise). George Miller, who directed all 3 previous Maxs, got the rights back from Warner Bros. in '97 (for giving up the directing of "Contact" to Zemeckis). I'm a big fan, but with that price tag who knows what will happen. It'll probably be more "Thunderdome" than "Road Warrior". This story comes from "Variety", it's not a rumor. - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:49 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] orangutan astronaut

 

  That was the Sam Hamm script for Chris Columbus. The Oliver Stone script was "Lord of the Rings" influenced and was set in ancient Africa. - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Melkor

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 8:37 AM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] orangutan astronaut

 

One of the scripts I read (Oliver Stone's?) began with an orangutan astronaut
crash landing in New York City.

>
>   Yeah, or Ursus! Someone should write an alternate history where Zauis and=
>  Ursus find out about the ship and go back in it. - - - Jeff
>
>
>
>   >   they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still=3D2=
> 0
>   >   think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human=3D20
>   >   society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that=3D2=
> 0
>   >   includes clothing...
>
>   Why? Zira and Cornelius like humans and in PLANET Zira seems to have
>   some special fascination with humans.  I think we would expect Zira to be
>   extremely curious about human society, not to 'hold it at arms length'.
>   Zira was the first to talk to humans because she was impatient with Milo'=
> s=20
>   advice to stay silent.
>
>   Now if Zaius had went back in time (that would be interesting!) he would
>   look at human society as something to hold at arms length.
>


--
Get yourself kicked out of the Stalinist group without even posting there in
two easy steps...

Step 1: Quote in this group what the owner posted about Trouble Makers
  in order to get put on strict moderation without notice where posts have
  taken up to 5 hours to go through.
Step 2: Report in this group that you were threatened by the owner and put
  on strict moderation for Step 1.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> Tilton, I have to say this... I agree with some of what you said in

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 2:17 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Mad Max (OT)

I think Miller learned from "Thunderdome" (hope so).

I would have thought Lucas learned from Return of the Jedi and the Ewoks, but then he came back with Jar Jar Binks!



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rich Handley

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 5:19 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Digest Number 1497

Man, I'm gone for a few months, and I come back to find the group filled
with in-fighting.  What the hell happened here?  This used to be a cool
place.  Why don't those of you involved in the fight just ignore each other
instead of perpetuating this ridiculous penis-pulling competition?



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar <mlccougar@...>

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 5:44 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Zira's wardrobe

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:

<they had Zira saying (even) she thought they were ugly... I still
think it woulda been better to have those two look at the human
society as something they'd want to hold at arms length, and that
includes clothing...>

*** Why? Zira and Cornelius like humans and in PLANET Zira seems to
have some special fascination with humans.  I think we would expect
Zira to be extremely curious about human society, not to 'hold it at
arms length'.Zira was the first to talk to humans because she was
impatient with Milo's advice to stay silent.**

< Not entirely true... She is "fascinated with them" as people might
be fascinated by an "intelligent" animal... She dissected them,
experimented with them, and treated them as the beasts they are in
her time... And I'm not quite sure where you think Cornelius likes
humans... Yes, he studied them, but studying something doesn't mean
you actually "like" them, not when you're doing it from a scientific
point of view... >



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:03 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] BENEATH & BATTLE

  Stuart, did you vote for your favorite "Ape" movie? I don't think you did. - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Stuart Drucker

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:00 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] BENEATH & BATTLE

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] BENEATH & BATTLE


>
> > only.  Then BENEATH comes out and warps the impression of the first and
far
> > superior movie.  It was HORRIBLE!

The biggest problem with Beneath was that the whole script approach had to
change when Charlton Heston refused to play more than a cameo role in the
movie. They couldn't do a complete rehash of the first movie with another
astronaut because it would have been repetitive, and I'd imagine that the
obvious direction was to explore a post-nuclear human society.

Having said that, the movie was a dated mirror of the times. Transferring
the whole anti-war motif to the chimps was ludicrious, not to mention the
studio-issue mutant dialogue and makeup, and that sing-along bomb song (if
there was ever a MST3K moment in the POTA series , it was the service in St.
Patricks). While the overall movie was awful, I thought the ending's message
was powerful: lack of interspecies (interracial?) trust leading to
thermonuclear destruction.  It ties neatly into the speech made by Taylor
about there having to be something "better than man", in that there wasn't,
at least on Earth.

Some of the other script ideas were better, like the one where Taylor
ultimately led the re-educated humans in overthrowing the ape order, and
turning the apes back into semi-articulate brutes. That would have had an
equally pessimistic message as the final movie (the more things change...),
but one a little more hopeful for humanity.

> BENEATH has two conservatives arguing about war.  BATTLE has two liberals
> arguing about war.  Urses wants to launch an attack.  Zaius wants to wait
until
> they have more information.  Mandemus is in favor of unilateral
disarmament.
> Caesar wants to keep their weapons stockpile for self-defense.  Between
the
> four of them you have almost the full range of opinions about war.

Likewise for Kolp vs. Mendez in the underground city. Mendex gave a strong
argument about letting neighbors living in peace, and (at least in the
novelization and the Japanese laserdisc), he argues that the bomb should be
left undetonated, if not venerated, as a symbol that mankind can learn its
lesson and become "something better". Other than xenophobia and paranoia,
his descendants might have done that (at least among one another).

Of cousre, if you consider POTA history to be elliptical, the "liberals"
(Mendex on the human side and Caesar) lost in the end. Caesar keeping the
weapons because the "danger always remains" led to the gorilla army,
stratification of the apes (those with the guns and power vs. not), and
ultimately the invasion of the Forbidden Zone in BENEATH. Mendex keeping the
bomb led to its worship as the "holy weapon of peace" and the destruction of
Earth.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

> I think a "flame" is a PERSONAL attack (like when I call Patty an

> I also have a rather large bug in my ass about the (what seems to

> As far as I can tell Patrick hasn't stopped, but nobody makes a

> There's nothing wrong with having a sense of humour, but when there

>
> So how about it? Can we now hear what individuals really think of

> I'm asking for honesty here, but I'm not expecting it because there

>
> Michael

> Tilton, I have to say this... I agree with some of what you said in

>
> Having said that, the movie was a dated mirror of the times. Transferring
> the whole anti-war motif to the chimps was ludicrious, not to mention the
> studio-issue mutant dialogue and makeup, and that sing-along bomb song (if
> there was ever a MST3K moment in the POTA series , it was the service in St.

> Likewise for Kolp vs. Mendez in the underground city. Mendex gave a strong
> argument about letting neighbors living in peace, and (at least in the
> novelization and the Japanese laserdisc), he argues that the bomb should be
> left undetonated, if not venerated, as a symbol that mankind can learn its
> lesson and become "something better". Other than xenophobia and paranoia,
> his descendants might have done that (at least among one another).

> Of cousre, if you consider POTA history to be elliptical, the "liberals"
> (Mendex on the human side and Caesar) lost in the end. Caesar keeping the
> weapons because the "danger always remains" led to the gorilla army,
> stratification of the apes (those with the guns and power vs. not), and
> ultimately the invasion of the Forbidden Zone in BENEATH. Mendex keeping the
> bomb led to its worship as the "holy weapon of peace" and the destruction of
> Earth.

> (the "high tide"). In my scenario, the

> Moon is turned into a Black Hole, its mass shrunk down to a ring-

>
> Patrick

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:

<I don't believe in the circular timeline idea because I think that
the BATTLE Lawgiver is supposed to be the PLANET Lawgiver or else
they wouldn't have called him Lawgiver. Also if Kolp had survived
instead of being killed by Aldo I don't think he would have used the
Bomb.>

Good to hear that you don't believe in the circular timeline, but
your reasoning behind it strikes me as very odd... You say you don't
believe in it because of the whole Lawgiver thing... Most that
believe in the circular time line believe in it for exactly you say
you don't: Because they think the BATTLE Lawgiver is supposed to be
the same one mentioned in PLANET... (I know, I don't get that
either...)

Could you please clarify what you mean though?

And as far as Kolp, no he wouldn't have used the bomb had he won...
There'd be no need for him to use it if he had "exterminated the
entire zoo" as he wanted to...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
> >
> > Having said that, the movie was a dated mirror of the times.
Transferring
> > the whole anti-war motif to the chimps was ludicrious, not to mention
the
> > studio-issue mutant dialogue and makeup, and that sing-along bomb song
(if
> > there was ever a MST3K moment in the POTA series , it was the service in
St.
>
> I didn't like the singing part, but I loved the mutant leader doing the
> Mass service. That was eerie.

It _was_ errrie, but there's something about the whole scene that just cries
out for a sing-along, if you have a very warped sense of humor. The idea of
singing along to a song about the Bomb, and the Bomb as a god, strikes me as
classic MST3K. All you need is superimposed lyrics, with one of those moving
dots :-).

> I don't believe in the circular timeline idea because I think that the
BATTLE
> Lawgiver is supposed to be the PLANET Lawgiver or else they wouldn't have
called
> him Lawgiver. Also if Kolp had survived instead of being killed by Aldo I
> don't think he would have used the Bomb.

I agree that they're supposed to be the same Lawgiver, but we still can't
settle on whether or not Caesar succeeded from the epilogue. Like you, I
would like to think that the world has changed. It would be the most
rational conclusion to draw if you're watching the movie superfically.
However, there's still the word of Paul Dehn and the Harringtons in the book
about POTA to contend with. They both say explicitly that the tear in the
eye of Caesar's statue is because he "knows" that history can't be changed,
after the epiligue scene with the human girl and chimp fighting.

That's part of the fun of fandom: whether we take the movie as canon
(subject to interpretation of course) or take the writer's word for what
he/she meant. Since at this point, Dehn is dead, and I doubt Fox really
cares about what the ending of Battle meant unless they come up with a
sequel to do it, we'll never have proof one way or the other. That's how
someone can logically rationalize such things as a post-nuclear Australia
serving as "New America" to justify the TV series, and the moon somehow
blowing up between the series and 3955, or 3978 depending on your taste.

----- Original Message -----

From: Stuart Drucker

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:27 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] BENEATH & BATTLE

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
> >
> > Having said that, the movie was a dated mirror of the times.
Transferring
> > the whole anti-war motif to the chimps was ludicrious, not to mention
the
> > studio-issue mutant dialogue and makeup, and that sing-along bomb song
(if
> > there was ever a MST3K moment in the POTA series , it was the service in
St.
>
> I didn't like the singing part, but I loved the mutant leader doing the
> Mass service.  That was eerie.

It _was_ errrie, but there's something about the whole scene that just cries
out for a sing-along, if you have a very warped sense of humor. The idea of
singing along to a song about the Bomb, and the Bomb as a god, strikes me as
classic MST3K. All you need is superimposed lyrics, with one of those moving
dots :-).

> I don't believe in the circular timeline idea because I think that the
BATTLE
> Lawgiver is supposed to be the PLANET Lawgiver or else they wouldn't have
called
> him Lawgiver.  Also if Kolp had survived instead of being killed by Aldo I
> don't think he would have used the Bomb.

I agree that they're supposed to be the same Lawgiver, but we still can't
settle on whether or not Caesar succeeded from the epilogue.  Like you, I
would like to think that the world has changed.  It would be the most
rational conclusion to draw if you're watching the movie superfically.
However, there's still the word of Paul Dehn and the Harringtons in the book
about POTA to contend with. They both say explicitly that the tear in the
eye of Caesar's statue is because he "knows" that history can't be changed,
after the epiligue scene with the human girl and chimp fighting.

That's part of the fun of fandom: whether we take the movie as canon
(subject to interpretation of course) or take the writer's word for what
he/she meant. Since at this point, Dehn is dead, and I doubt Fox really
cares about what the ending of Battle meant unless they come up with a
sequel to do it, we'll never have proof one way or the other. That's how
someone can logically rationalize such things as a post-nuclear Australia
serving as "New America" to justify the TV series, and the moon somehow
blowing up between the series and 3955, or 3978 depending on your taste.






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
>
> <I don't believe in the circular timeline idea because I think that
> the BATTLE Lawgiver is supposed to be the PLANET Lawgiver or else
> they wouldn't have called him Lawgiver. Also if Kolp had survived
> instead of being killed by Aldo I don't think he would have used the
> Bomb.>
>
> Good to hear that you don't believe in the circular timeline, but
> your reasoning behind it strikes me as very odd... You say you don't
> believe in it because of the whole Lawgiver thing... Most that
> believe in the circular time line believe in it for exactly you say
> you don't: Because they think the BATTLE Lawgiver is supposed to be
> the same one mentioned in PLANET... (I know, I don't get that
> either...)
>
> Could you please clarify what you mean though?

> And as far as Kolp, no he wouldn't have used the bomb had he won... >

>
> > I don't believe in the circular timeline idea because I think that the
> BATTLE
> > Lawgiver is supposed to be the PLANET Lawgiver or else they wouldn't have
> called
> > him Lawgiver. Also if Kolp had survived instead of being killed by Aldo I
> > don't think he would have used the Bomb.
>
> I agree that they're supposed to be the same Lawgiver, but we still can't
> settle on whether or not Caesar succeeded from the epilogue. Like you, I

> would like to think that the world has changed. It would be the most
> rational conclusion to draw if you're watching the movie superfically.
> However, there's still the word of Paul Dehn and the Harringtons in the book
> about POTA to contend with. They both say explicitly that the tear in the
> eye of Caesar's statue is because he "knows" that history can't be changed,
> after the epiligue scene with the human girl and chimp fighting.

> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> >
> > <I don't believe in the circular timeline idea because I think

> >
> > Good to hear that you don't believe in the circular timeline, but

> >
> > Could you please clarify what you mean though?
>
> If Jesus had been a bigot in a different timeline would history

>
>
> > And as far as Kolp, no he wouldn't have used the bomb had he

>
> I think Kolp wouldn't have used the bomb if he had lost but still

>

> *** The trouble with the "Lawgiver identity" hypothesis stated below
> (i.e. that the BATTLE Lawgiver somehow "is" the same Lawgiver whose
> statue is seen in PLANET and BENEATH, yet is "changed" to be pro-
> Human due to Caesar's actions), is that the chronology as presented
> on-film seems (to me) to be against it.

> Zaius tells Taylor that the "Sacred Scrolls" were written 1,200 years

> prior to PLANET (i.e. roundabout 2755 or 2778, depending on when you
> wish to believe PLANET takes place--3955 or 3978). Yet the BATTLE

> the Future holds. Why doesn't the Lawgiver confidently state
> that "God" has definitely saved the world, through sending Caesar
> back from the "former" End of the World? Why does he admit
> that "perhaps only the Dead" truly know the Future?

> Even HE is not so
> sure how events will unfold... he merely HOPES that things will
> remain peaceful, just as Caesar, Virgil, Mandemus, and MacDonald
> could only Hope. MacDonald says he heard that changing the Future is
> POSSIBLE... but they still "must be patient and WAIT".

> EARTH-TIME years after the final scene of BATTLE... the last image of
> which (prior to the weeping Caesar statue), is of an ape-&-human
> fight. CONFLICT. War in the microcosm, with one person pulling at
> another's hair and the other pushing back. Imagine how different this
> debate would be if, instead, that duo of chimpanzee and human

> Evidently, aside from the pro-Caesar scroll from which the BATTLE
> Lawgiver reads, there is ALSO a pro-Aldo scroll, perhaps written by a
> gorilla in defense of Aldo's motives for opposing Caesar (and,
> perhaps, white-washing Aldo's murder of Caesar's son).

> I've pointed it out before (and nobody, as yet, as bothered to chime
> in to discuss it), but THERE ARE NO GORILLAS in the "Lawgiver scenes"
> in BATTLE: the Lawgiver teaches & preaches to a congregation of human

> Concerning the last bit, regarding whether or not Kolp would have
> used the Doomsday Bomb had he been able to return to his city, the
> dialogue from the screenplay firmly implies exactly that:
>
> >From the BATTLE screenplay, pages 61ff.
>
> KOLP: "If the impossible happens... if we're defeated by the Apes...
> I will not surrender to an animal. Neither will my soldiers. If
> retreat seems necessary, I shall send you a coded radio-signal.
> Fifteen minutes after its receipt, you will range this missile on Ape
> City and activate it--"

> Thank you Patrick for doing your part in keeping this group alive.

>
> I've been up to something lately involving trying to outwit those

>
> As you've read here I've recently purchased a digital 16X9 TV, all

>
> Well, in the UK (which in the world of DVD is region 2, as opposed

>
> In order to watch these discs I've just bought on eBay an Apex 1500

>
> So, I'm hoping that as soon as I have both items in my hands I'll

>
> In the meantime I'm still hot for writing to Fox and bitching that

> I'm still trying to figure out where you leave comments on that

>
> Stay tuned.
>
> -- Rory

> > *** The trouble with the "Lawgiver identity" hypothesis stated

>
> It's close enough to be within some margin of error or perhaps the

> > Zaius tells Taylor that the "Sacred Scrolls" were written 1,200

>
> 1200 years is probably only meant to be an approximate guess, not

> > prior to PLANET (i.e. roundabout 2755 or 2778, depending on when

>
> Since the 2 dates were different the calculations must have had

>
>
> > the Future holds. Why doesn't the Lawgiver confidently state
> > that "God" has definitely saved the world, through sending Caesar
> > back from the "former" End of the World? Why does he admit
> > that "perhaps only the Dead" truly know the Future?
>
> The Lawgiver does not know key pieces of information that we know,

> In a message dated 12/14/02 2:20:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> > ESCAPE takes place in 1973, and the ship's clock accurately

> >
> Patrick, go get your DVD of PLANET out and look at it again. The

>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:

Yes, there are several bootleg ESCAPE CDs out there, some also
including music from another Goldsmith score. My copy of the ESCAPE
music is a bootleg of a bootleg that Joe Russo made for me. The
audio is good, but like ESCAPE on DVD it's all mono. The Varese
PLANET/ESCAPE CD is the only place where you can hear some of
ESCAPE's score in true stereo.

-- Rory

I'm going to guess you have "no idea" but do you know where to send
letters to Film Score Monthly to request that they release the
complete ESCAPE score? (Or, more importantly, "who" to send the
letters to at FSM?) Or do you think that Varese Sarabande is the only
one that has the rights to release the Goldsmith APES music?

> *** We can agree to disagree here, but in my opinion the
> word "Lawgiver" is not a name that only one person can ever have:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Zaius tells Taylor that the "Sacred Scrolls" were written 1,200
> years
> >
> > 1200 years is probably only meant to be an approximate guess, not
> an exact figure. We only have estimates of when the New Testament
> books were written, not exact years or even decades. Zaius didn't
> give a more precise figure because he didn't know the exact number of
> years.
>
> *** If Zaius says this in 3955-3978, and if the Lawgiver in question
> is the BATTLE one (as you prefer), then an approximate guess would be
> that the Scrolls were written 1300 years ago, not 1200. The year 2670
> is smack dab in the middle of the range of years 3955-3978 minus
> 1300. True, we don't know EXACTLY what decade (let along YEAR) the
> New Testament books were written, but we DO have it pinned down to
> the century. I would argue that Zaius is uniquely qualified to know
> the number of years with a fair degree of accuracy.

>
> *** See above; the computer wasn't sentient (like HAL 9000), so it
> couldn't "make a guess". It could only do what it had been programmed
> to do (Landon mentions their ship wasn't "programmed" to land in the

> TIME clock). SOMEHOW, the ship's computer "knew" when it was going
> BACKWARDS through EARTH-TIME... because it was programmed to display
> those dates under certain given circumstances.

> wishes to change. I think the BATTLE Lawgiver DOES know that the End
> of the World is scheduled to be in "Thirty Nine Fifty" (as Caesar

> hears it from his long-dead mother--truncated from "3950-something"),
> but he--as did Caesar/Virgil/MacDonal--HOPES that that outcome can be
> avoided. He can't KNOW for certain that the Future IS changed--he can
> only wait and hope--but that doesn't preclude him from doing his part
> to TRY to create the "saved" future that Caesar hoped to bring about.

> *** Well, the "humans and apes" living together in THEIR neck-of-the-
> woods. What about the rest of the world? Or just the rest of the
> continent? Just because one little community is in harmony doesn't
> mean that it's that way everywhere else. For all they know, just a

> *** Again, I see the word "Lawgiver" as a Title, not a Name. Jesus
> wasn't the first "Christ" ("Messiah", "anointed one"), but Christians

> > Nor orangutans. But the Lawgiver says "humans and apes living in
> harmony." and not "humans and chimpanzees living in harmony." A non-
> issue.
>
> *** A "non-issue"? Can we not speculate that the absence of gorillas
> matters, especially when the story/"scripture" this Lawgiver relates
> has a distinct "anti-gorilla" flavor to it? Remember Zira's gorilla-
> bashing in BENEATH and ESCAPE? Even here, in BATTLE, Virgil (who is
> supposedly "enlightened", and knows "everything about everything") is
> not above making a slur against gorillas when he "corrects" Caesar's
> exclamation that "in 3950 APES will destroy the
> Earth!": "Not 'apes'... GORILLAS." Hey, Virgil... aren't gorillas
> Apes, as are Chimps and Orangs? The story the Lawgiver tells to his
> congregation is "slanted" against Aldo and his "faction" (as when
> Aldo & the gorillas refuse to sit in council "with humans"). The LACK
> of gorillas in the Lawgiver's congregation is very much an "issue",
> at least with me.

> > > KOLP: "If the impossible happens... if we're defeated by the
> Apes... I will not surrender to an animal. Neither will my soldiers.
> If retreat seems necessary, I shall send you a coded radio-signal.
> Fifteen minutes after its receipt, you will range this missile on Ape
> City and activate it--"
> >
> > Kolp wasn't being chased when he left (until Aldo did so) so there
> was originally no risk of him surrendering "to an animal". His plan
> sounds like he would have signaled a 15 minute countdown if he had to
> start retreating and if he was captured (surrendered) the countdown
> would have gone through, otherwise he would have aborted. Kolp knew
> what Alma did not, that there was no legitimate need for a 15 minute
> countdown. The only possible reason for having a countdown was a
> sneaky way to guarantee that the world would be destroyed if and only
> if Kolp himself was killed or captured.
>
> "If retreat seems necessary..." Kolp says. He was IN retreat when
> Aldo's forces intercepted his, and gunned them all down. It doesn't
> get any plainer than that.

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:37 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] POTA mini busts

Well, I got those POTA mini busts today, and I have to say I find them rather lackluster.  It's not the paint jobs that are the problem, it's the sculpts.  They look amateurish.  Dr. Zaius looks like he's having a stroke!  Anyway, I should have saved my money, but maybe they'll be collectibles.  I'm sure as hell not taking them out of the box.

Oh well.

-- Rory

----- Original Message -----

From: veetus@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 5:04 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] POTA mini busts

  Yeah, I saw the busts when I was Christmas shopping and they were, well, a bust. Haven't seen the gorilla, though. Looked good in the ads. But I got 5 Medicoms for $ 8 each, a new record! Aldo, Astro Taylor, "Conquest" gorilla, Ursus and Caesar. - - - Jeff

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:37 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] POTA mini busts

Well, I got those POTA mini busts today, and I have to say I find them rather lackluster.  It's not the paint jobs that are the problem, it's the sculpts.  They look amateurish.  Dr. Zaius looks like he's having a stroke!  Anyway, I should have saved my money, but maybe they'll be collectibles.  I'm sure as hell not taking them out of the box.

Oh well.

-- Rory

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> Ok, question here: While watching an APES clips tape I have, it came
> to the part about ESCAPE, and it got me thinking... "IF" the ship's
> computers/timeclock/homing devices are supposed to be "so accurate,"
> then how did the Ape-O-Nauts end up in southern California, rather
> than out on the east coast? (The east coast presumably is
> where "home" was, since that's where the two ships crashed in the
> first two films...)
>
> Yes, Landon says they "weren't programmed to land in the water", but
> maybe the water is near the location where an Air Force base or an
> ANSA base,(or even an airport) was, and the ship landed in the area
> that it was supposed to land, but because of the holocaust, and all
> the land shifts, etc. the base it was supposed to land at is no
> longer there. The homing device could certainly have been correct in
> PLANET (if we're even saying it was in use at all during that
> mission's "problems",)but how do we account for it in ESCAPE? Even if
> Milo did very little, if any, actual piloting and relied on the
> ship's homing device to pilot the ship, shouldn't the ship have
> landed in at least the same general area that was programmed into
> it's memory? (As I said, I'd guess it's "home base" was the east
> coast.)In ESCAPE,Why would it's homing device be off by not only a
> few miles, but an entire continent? Something got messed up BIG TIME
> in the ship's memory somewhere along the line, so I can't even give
> you that the ship "knew" it was going back in time...

> Ever heard of the Western White House? Nixon used to stay in San

>
> > OK, question of the night... IF ESCAPE is supposed to be in

> >

>
> Assuming it had a homing device, the Icarus probably was not

> <<<The computer wasn't sentient (like HAL 9000), so it

>
> SOMEHOW, the ship's computer "knew" when it was going BACKWARDS
> through EARTH-TIME... because it was programmed to display those
> dates under certain given circumstances.
>
> On the other hand the Icarus computer presumebly got the exact date
> right in ESCAPE. That could be because it was close to the time it
> launched and so it was much more accurate because the computer had
> reference data from 1972. Such a program to compute EARTH-TIME

> be written today, but all we know for sure is that the time is not
> always accurate and can be off by decades.>>>
>

> Ok, question here: While watching an APES clips tape I have, it

>
> Yes, Landon says they "weren't programmed to land in the water",

> > *** We can agree to disagree here, but in my opinion the
> > word "Lawgiver" is not a name that only one person can ever have:
>
> Zaius called him "the greatest ape of all, our Lawgiver".

>
> I don't see why not. People do it all the time. Anyway, he's the President
> of the United States. And since Hasslein is a big shot at the POTA
> equivalent of NASA they's fly him out special.

> > wishes to change. I think the BATTLE Lawgiver DOES know that the

>
> Then if there had been a circular timeline Zaius would know about

>
>
> > hears it from his long-dead mother--truncated from "3950-

>
> Again the Lawgiver does not know what WE know. There is no

> > *** Well, the "humans and apes" living together in THEIR neck-of-

>
> What happens elsewhere is completely irrelevent. Why? Because the
> Earth's destruction in BENEATH was caused by the exact same two
> cultures as BATTLE, one of which is the Lawgiver's culture.

>
> How about the Presidential Commission and all the other US government
> types? Are they all sent out to Cali. for this assignment of

> >
> > I don't see why not. People do it all the time. Anyway, he's

>
> Hasslein is the President's Science Advisor, not a NASA employee.

>
> http://www.npaci.edu/online/v6.5/marburger.html"

> ***Regardless of how long this score is, I'd still like to see
> it "legitimately" released with nice packaging, etc... And, do you
> know if there are any unused cues from it? If that's the case, they
> could pad it out with those to make it longer in length. Another
> possibility would be to pair it with another Goldsmith score (as the
> bootleg version is,) just so long as ESCAPE is the one prominently
> featured on the graphics, etc...