> Okay, here I go again. I was looking at the POTA timeline for the

> In a message dated 1/6/03 4:30:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> toosexy4u54@h... writes:
>
>
> > Okay, here I go again. I was looking at the POTA timeline for the
> > Caesar's birth date. The timeline says he was born in June.
>
> What timeline? Where?
>
> -- Rory

> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "libraryape <toosexy4u54@h...>"
> <toosexy4u54@h...> wrote:
> > Okay, here I go again. I was looking at the POTA timeline for the
> Caesar's birth date. The timeline says he was born in June. I
> disagree as the date isn't congruent with what Armando said when

> and Cornelius had to leave. He said something like this "Just one
> more month and we leave for our Florida, winter chorridors
> [quarters] ..." The circuses' season generally ends in late summer,
> early fall. If this is so, then wouldn't Caesar have been born in
> August, maybe even September?
>
> *** It seems to me that any traveling circus which travelled across
> the entire country (from California to Florida), would have to save
> the optimal spring & summer months for those northerly states which
> experience the seasonal temperature extremes (for example, in Fargo
> [where I live] you never see the circus come to town in February or
> October, since it is apt to be 'wintry conditions' here then). If
> Armando's circus, on its route from Florida-to-Florida goes through
> the northern states (possibly even through Canada), then once it

> down to southern California it could still enjoy moderate
> temperatures, even if by that time there were blizzards in the

> states.
> Armando says that his circus will be moving "in one month" for

> winter quarters in Florida. Does he mean that they'll travel all

> way from the Los Angeles area to the Everglades without stopping to
> put on a circus show at any point in between? Is he just going to
> travel through Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas,
> Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, (possibly Georgia), and THEN get
> into Florida WITHOUT doing a single show? Isn't it more likely that
> Armando's circus will put on shows in those states while he's
> traveling in the general direction of their winter quarters in
> Florida? Or will they merely be just "passing through"?
> By "one month", does Armando mean that his circus is just going to
> hang around in Southern California for 4 weeks and THEN start
> travelling eastward?
> Unfortunately, there just aren't enough data given in ESCAPE to

> the timeline of events precisely. My own estimation is that the

> of Salome (a month prior to the landing of the Ape-onauts) was
> perhaps in August-to-September; that the landing of the Ape-onauts
> was around September-to-October; and that the circus would be

> out on its Florida-bound journey sometime in late October.

> his circus must spend an inordinate amount of time in the

> area, since Lewis Dixon helped deliver Heloise's daughter, Salome.

> that's the case, then before ESCAPE begins, Armando's circus was
> probably already near enough to Los Angeles, so that Dixon could be
> in the vicinity to deliver the baby chimp ("the FIRST chimpanzee

> to be born in a circus!"). The events of ESCAPE take up about a

> of time (I'm guessing), so that Armando's circus may have just
> arrived in the vicinity of Southern California about a month before
> the Ape-onauts landed. There are a lot of places in So-Cal where a
> traveling circus could put on shows; in fact, Dixon could have
> delivered Salome when Armando's circus was in Sacramento or San
> Francisco, and during the next month the circus could have been
> travelling around the state (doing shows in Modesto, Fresno,

> Bakersfield, Santa Barbara, San Bernardino, etc.) prior to setting

> their tents to do shows in the Los Angeles area where--a month

> Dixon has Armando help out with his fugitive Chimp friends.
>
> How nice it would've been if Bill Bonds, at the start of his
> Eyewitness News segment, had given the DATE of the broadcast, just

> the announcer does at the beginning of Tom Brokaw's broadcasts

> night! About the only other possible "clue" as to when certain

> take place is that Disneyland "jungle cruise" ride which Cornelius
> helps to inaugurate. I wonder if Disneyland actually DID have a
> jungle cruise ride commence operations in 1973... if so, then

> what date might it have been "christened"? Also, it would've been
> nice if the Chairman of the Presidential Commission would've
> mentioned the date in a more specific way than just "the year of

> Lord Nineteen Hundred Seventy Three"... why not give the MONTH and
> the DAY while you're at it, buster?! I guess that would've been too
> convenient for us POTA fans.
>
> Since winter doesn't officially begin until late December (the

> usually), then One Month prior to that would be late November,
> meaning that Armando's circus COULD have been in the Los Angeles

> up until mid-November or so, where temperatures are still

> nice (Latitude 34 N), while simultaneously a northerly city like
> Fargo (at Latitude 47 N) is often under a foot or more of snow.

> we have an August-to-November window of opportunity in which to

> the events of ESCAPE, with late September/early October as
> the "mean".
>
> Hey, if anybody has a super-duper pristine High Def TV on which to
> watch it, try to see if there's anything telling on that chalkboard
> in the Zoo with the names of the personnel listed on it (i.e.
> Branton, Dixon, etc.). Anything with a date on it which my 27" TV
> can't pick up? Is there a "timecard" there, perchance? If a

> transfer of "A Hard Day's Night" could prove that the Beatles stole
> some coat-hangers from a specific hotel, due to the now-legible

> details seen on the latest transfer to DVD, might not there be some
> previously illegible, blurred image which a High Def DVD image

> make legible in ESCAPE? I don't have the equipment at home to do

> but I know that Rory has a nicer set-up than I do...
>
> Patrick

> Thanks Patrick. Yeah, you're right. It's quarters. I picked
> chorridors because that's all my brain could think up when I was
> writing out the question. I don't think I even got Armando's line
> right. Yes, it is too bad ESCAPE had no indicator as to what date

> month it was. I guess it wasn't important other than the year.I

> that September or October is the appropiate time Caesar was born.
> One thing I am sure about is that Armando and Caesar in "Conquest
> arrived in Breck's city in early spring. The trees in bloom is

> enough. Another thing I would like to bring up is the technology
> in "Conquest". I've been iventing my own technology, calling the
> phone-computer a telemonitor. Much of what I put into my tangent of
> POTA is close to what we have today, such as remote, disk and so

> In my story I have hoover cars that are in introduction stage as

> hybird electric cars are in our reality. You have any disputes or
> ideas? Should I limit myself or just keep inventing technology and
> the names that go with it? ahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton
> <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "libraryape <toosexy4u54@h...>"
> > <toosexy4u54@h...> wrote:
> > > Okay, here I go again. I was looking at the POTA timeline for

> > Caesar's birth date. The timeline says he was born in June. I
> > disagree as the date isn't congruent with what Armando said when
> Zira
> > and Cornelius had to leave. He said something like this "Just

> > more month and we leave for our Florida, winter chorridors
> > [quarters] ..." The circuses' season generally ends in late

> > early fall. If this is so, then wouldn't Caesar have been born in
> > August, maybe even September?
> >
> > *** It seems to me that any traveling circus which travelled

> > the entire country (from California to Florida), would have to

> > the optimal spring & summer months for those northerly states

> > experience the seasonal temperature extremes (for example, in

> > [where I live] you never see the circus come to town in February

> > October, since it is apt to be 'wintry conditions' here then). If
> > Armando's circus, on its route from Florida-to-Florida goes

> > the northern states (possibly even through Canada), then once it
> got
> > down to southern California it could still enjoy moderate
> > temperatures, even if by that time there were blizzards in the
> Plains
> > states.
> > Armando says that his circus will be moving "in one month" for
> their
> > winter quarters in Florida. Does he mean that they'll travel all
> the
> > way from the Los Angeles area to the Everglades without stopping

> > put on a circus show at any point in between? Is he just going to
> > travel through Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas,
> > Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, (possibly Georgia), and THEN get
> > into Florida WITHOUT doing a single show? Isn't it more likely

> > Armando's circus will put on shows in those states while he's
> > traveling in the general direction of their winter quarters in
> > Florida? Or will they merely be just "passing through"?
> > By "one month", does Armando mean that his circus is just going

> > hang around in Southern California for 4 weeks and THEN start
> > travelling eastward?
> > Unfortunately, there just aren't enough data given in ESCAPE to
> judge
> > the timeline of events precisely. My own estimation is that the
> birth
> > of Salome (a month prior to the landing of the Ape-onauts) was
> > perhaps in August-to-September; that the landing of the Ape-

> > was around September-to-October; and that the circus would be
> moving
> > out on its Florida-bound journey sometime in late October.
> Remember,
> > his circus must spend an inordinate amount of time in the
> California
> > area, since Lewis Dixon helped deliver Heloise's daughter,

> If
> > that's the case, then before ESCAPE begins, Armando's circus was
> > probably already near enough to Los Angeles, so that Dixon could

> > in the vicinity to deliver the baby chimp ("the FIRST chimpanzee
> ever
> > to be born in a circus!"). The events of ESCAPE take up about a
> month
> > of time (I'm guessing), so that Armando's circus may have just
> > arrived in the vicinity of Southern California about a month

> > the Ape-onauts landed. There are a lot of places in So-Cal where

> > traveling circus could put on shows; in fact, Dixon could have
> > delivered Salome when Armando's circus was in Sacramento or San
> > Francisco, and during the next month the circus could have been
> > travelling around the state (doing shows in Modesto, Fresno,
> Visalia,
> > Bakersfield, Santa Barbara, San Bernardino, etc.) prior to

> up
> > their tents to do shows in the Los Angeles area where--a month
> later--
> > Dixon has Armando help out with his fugitive Chimp friends.
> >
> > How nice it would've been if Bill Bonds, at the start of his
> > Eyewitness News segment, had given the DATE of the broadcast,

> as
> > the announcer does at the beginning of Tom Brokaw's broadcasts
> every
> > night! About the only other possible "clue" as to when certain
> events
> > take place is that Disneyland "jungle cruise" ride which

> > helps to inaugurate. I wonder if Disneyland actually DID have a
> > jungle cruise ride commence operations in 1973... if so, then
> exactly
> > what date might it have been "christened"? Also, it would've been
> > nice if the Chairman of the Presidential Commission would've
> > mentioned the date in a more specific way than just "the year of
> our
> > Lord Nineteen Hundred Seventy Three"... why not give the MONTH

> > the DAY while you're at it, buster?! I guess that would've been

> > convenient for us POTA fans.
> >
> > Since winter doesn't officially begin until late December (the
> 21st,
> > usually), then One Month prior to that would be late November,
> > meaning that Armando's circus COULD have been in the Los Angeles
> area
> > up until mid-November or so, where temperatures are still
> relatively
> > nice (Latitude 34 N), while simultaneously a northerly city like
> > Fargo (at Latitude 47 N) is often under a foot or more of snow.
> Thus,
> > we have an August-to-November window of opportunity in which to
> place
> > the events of ESCAPE, with late September/early October as
> > the "mean".
> >
> > Hey, if anybody has a super-duper pristine High Def TV on which

> > watch it, try to see if there's anything telling on that

> > in the Zoo with the names of the personnel listed on it (i.e.
> > Branton, Dixon, etc.). Anything with a date on it which my 27" TV
> > can't pick up? Is there a "timecard" there, perchance? If a
> pristine
> > transfer of "A Hard Day's Night" could prove that the Beatles

> > some coat-hangers from a specific hotel, due to the now-legible
> small
> > details seen on the latest transfer to DVD, might not there be

> > previously illegible, blurred image which a High Def DVD image
> could
> > make legible in ESCAPE? I don't have the equipment at home to do
> it,
> > but I know that Rory has a nicer set-up than I do...
> >
> > Patrick

How bout just checking the spike in sales of "grape juice plus", seemed to be a popular drink at the time....

 "libraryape <toosexy4u54@...>" <toosexy4u54@...> wrote:

By the way its hover cars not hoover. Sorry.--- In
pota@yahoogroups.com, "libraryape <toosexy4u54@h...>"
<toosexy4u54@h...> wrote:
> Thanks Patrick. Yeah, you're right. It's quarters. I picked
> chorridors because that's all my brain could think up when I was
> writing out the question. I don't think I even got Armando's line
> right. Yes, it is too bad ESCAPE had no indicator as to what date
or
> month it was. I guess it wasn't important other than the year.I
agree
> that September or October is the appropiate time Caesar was born. 
> One thing I am sure about is that Armando and Caesar in "Conquest
> arrived in Breck's city in early spring. The trees in bloom is
proof
> enough. Another thing I would like to bring up is the technology
> in "Conquest". I've been iventing my own technology, calling the
> phone-computer a telemonitor. Much of what I put into my tangent of
> POTA is close to what we have today, such as remote, disk and so
on.
> In my story I have hoover cars that are in  introduction stage as
are
> hybird electric cars are in our reality. You have any disputes or
> ideas? Should I limit myself or just keep inventing technology and
> the names that go with it? ahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton
> <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "libraryape <toosexy4u54@h...>"
> > <toosexy4u54@h...> wrote:
> > > Okay, here I go again. I was looking at the POTA timeline for
the
> > Caesar's birth date. The timeline says he was born in June. I
> > disagree as the date isn't congruent with what Armando said when
> Zira
> > and Cornelius had to leave. He said something like this  "Just
one
> > more month and we leave for our Florida, winter chorridors
> > [quarters] ..." The circuses' season generally ends in late
summer,
> > early fall. If this is so, then wouldn't Caesar have been born in
> > August, maybe even September?
> >
> > *** It seems to me that any traveling circus which travelled
across
> > the entire country (from California to Florida), would have to
save
> > the optimal spring & summer months for those northerly states
which
> > experience the seasonal temperature extremes (for example, in
Fargo
> > [where I live] you never see the circus come to town in February
or
> > October, since it is apt to be 'wintry conditions' here then). If
> > Armando's circus, on its route from Florida-to-Florida goes
through
> > the northern states (possibly even through Canada), then once it
> got
> > down to southern California it could still enjoy moderate
> > temperatures, even if by that time there were blizzards in the
> Plains
> > states.
> > Armando says that his circus will be moving "in one month" for
> their
> > winter quarters in Florida. Does he mean that they'll travel all
> the
> > way from the Los Angeles area to the Everglades without stopping
to
> > put on a circus show at any point in between? Is he just going to
> > travel through Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas,
> > Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, (possibly Georgia), and THEN get
> > into Florida WITHOUT doing a single show? Isn't it more likely
that
> > Armando's circus will put on shows in those states while he's
> > traveling in the general direction of their winter quarters in
> > Florida? Or will they merely be just "passing through"?
> > By "one month", does Armando mean that his circus is just going
to
> > hang around in Southern California for 4 weeks and THEN start
> > travelling eastward?
> > Unfortunately, there just aren't enough data given in ESCAPE to
> judge
> > the timeline of events precisely. My own estimation is that the
> birth
> > of Salome (a month prior to the landing of the Ape-onauts) was
> > perhaps in August-to-September; that the landing of the Ape-
onauts
> > was around September-to-October; and that the circus would be
> moving
> > out on its Florida-bound journey sometime in late October.
> Remember,
> > his circus must spend an inordinate amount of time in the
> California
> > area, since Lewis Dixon helped deliver Heloise's daughter,
Salome.
> If
> > that's the case, then before ESCAPE begins, Armando's circus was
> > probably already near enough to Los Angeles, so that Dixon could
be
> > in the vicinity to deliver the baby chimp ("the FIRST chimpanzee
> ever
> > to be born in a circus!"). The events of ESCAPE take up about a
> month
> > of time (I'm guessing), so that Armando's circus may have just
> > arrived in the vicinity of Southern California about a month
before
> > the Ape-onauts landed. There are a lot of places in So-Cal where
a
> > traveling circus could put on shows; in fact, Dixon could have
> > delivered Salome when Armando's circus was in Sacramento or San
> > Francisco, and during the next month the circus could have been
> > travelling around the state (doing shows in Modesto, Fresno,
> Visalia,
> > Bakersfield, Santa Barbara, San Bernardino, etc.) prior to
setting
> up
> > their tents to do shows in the Los Angeles area where--a month
> later--
> > Dixon has Armando help out with his fugitive Chimp friends.
> >
> > How nice it would've been if Bill Bonds, at the start of his
> > Eyewitness News segment, had given the DATE of the broadcast,
just
> as
> > the announcer does at the beginning of Tom Brokaw's broadcasts
> every
> > night! About the only other possible "clue" as to when certain
> events
> > take place is that Disneyland "jungle cruise" ride which
Cornelius
> > helps to inaugurate. I wonder if Disneyland actually DID have a
> > jungle cruise ride commence operations in 1973... if so, then
> exactly
> > what date might it have been "christened"? Also, it would've been
> > nice if the Chairman of the Presidential Commission would've
> > mentioned the date in a more specific way than just "the year of
> our
> > Lord Nineteen Hundred Seventy Three"... why not give the MONTH
and
> > the DAY while you're at it, buster?! I guess that would've been
too
> > convenient for us POTA fans.
> >
> > Since winter doesn't officially begin until late December (the
> 21st,
> > usually), then One Month prior to that would be late November,
> > meaning that Armando's circus COULD have been in the Los Angeles
> area
> > up until mid-November or so, where temperatures are still
> relatively
> > nice (Latitude 34 N), while simultaneously a northerly city like
> > Fargo (at Latitude 47 N) is often under a foot or more of snow.
> Thus,
> > we have an August-to-November window of opportunity in which to
> place
> > the events of ESCAPE, with late September/early October as
> > the "mean".
> >
> > Hey, if anybody has a super-duper pristine High Def TV on which
to
> > watch it, try to see if there's anything telling on that
chalkboard
> > in the Zoo with the names of the personnel listed on it (i.e.
> > Branton, Dixon, etc.). Anything with a date on it which my 27" TV

How bout just checking the spike in sales of "grape juice plus", seemed to be a popular drink at the time....

 "libraryape <toosexy4u54@...>" <toosexy4u54@...> wrote:

By the way its hover cars not hoover. Sorry.--- In
pota@yahoogroups.com, "libraryape <toosexy4u54@h...>"
<toosexy4u54@h...> wrote:
> Thanks Patrick. Yeah, you're right. It's quarters. I picked
> chorridors because that's all my brain could think up when I was
> writing out the question. I don't think I even got Armando's line
> right. Yes, it is too bad ESCAPE had no indicator as to what date
or
> month it was. I guess it wasn't important other than the year.I
agree
> that September or October is the appropiate time Caesar was born. 
> One thing I am sure about is that Armando and Caesar in "Conquest
> arrived in Breck's city in early spring. The trees in bloom is
proof
> enough. Another thing I would like to bring up is the technology
> in "Conquest". I've been iventing my own technology, calling the
> phone-computer a telemonitor. Much of what I put into my tangent of
> POTA is close to what we have today, such as remote, disk and so
on.
> In my story I have hoover cars that are in  introduction stage as
are
> hybird electric cars are in our reality. You have any disputes or
> ideas? Should I limit myself or just keep inventing technology and
> the names that go with it? ahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton
> <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>" <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "libraryape <toosexy4u54@h...>"
> > <toosexy4u54@h...> wrote:
> > > Okay, here I go again. I was looking at the POTA timeline for
the
> > Caesar's birth date. The timeline says he was born in June. I
> > disagree as the date isn't congruent with what Armando said when
> Zira
> > and Cornelius had to leave. He said something like this  "Just
one
> > more month and we leave for our Florida, winter chorridors
> > [quarters] ..." The circuses' season generally ends in late
summer,
> > early fall. If this is so, then wouldn't Caesar have been born in
> > August, maybe even September?
> >
> > *** It seems to me that any traveling circus which travelled
across
> > the entire country (from California to Florida), would have to
save
> > the optimal spring & summer months for those northerly states
which
> > experience the seasonal temperature extremes (for example, in
Fargo
> > [where I live] you never see the circus come to town in February
or
> > October, since it is apt to be 'wintry conditions' here then). If
> > Armando's circus, on its route from Florida-to-Florida goes
through
> > the northern states (possibly even through Canada), then once it
> got
> > down to southern California it could still enjoy moderate
> > temperatures, even if by that time there were blizzards in the
> Plains
> > states.
> > Armando says that his circus will be moving "in one month" for
> their
> > winter quarters in Florida. Does he mean that they'll travel all
> the
> > way from the Los Angeles area to the Everglades without stopping
to
> > put on a circus show at any point in between? Is he just going to
> > travel through Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas,
> > Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, (possibly Georgia), and THEN get
> > into Florida WITHOUT doing a single show? Isn't it more likely
that
> > Armando's circus will put on shows in those states while he's
> > traveling in the general direction of their winter quarters in
> > Florida? Or will they merely be just "passing through"?
> > By "one month", does Armando mean that his circus is just going
to
> > hang around in Southern California for 4 weeks and THEN start
> > travelling eastward?
> > Unfortunately, there just aren't enough data given in ESCAPE to
> judge
> > the timeline of events precisely. My own estimation is that the
> birth
> > of Salome (a month prior to the landing of the Ape-onauts) was
> > perhaps in August-to-September; that the landing of the Ape-
onauts
> > was around September-to-October; and that the circus would be
> moving
> > out on its Florida-bound journey sometime in late October.
> Remember,
> > his circus must spend an inordinate amount of time in the
> California
> > area, since Lewis Dixon helped deliver Heloise's daughter,
Salome.
> If
> > that's the case, then before ESCAPE begins, Armando's circus was
> > probably already near enough to Los Angeles, so that Dixon could
be
> > in the vicinity to deliver the baby chimp ("the FIRST chimpanzee
> ever
> > to be born in a circus!"). The events of ESCAPE take up about a
> month
> > of time (I'm guessing), so that Armando's circus may have just
> > arrived in the vicinity of Southern California about a month
before
> > the Ape-onauts landed. There are a lot of places in So-Cal where
a
> > traveling circus could put on shows; in fact, Dixon could have
> > delivered Salome when Armando's circus was in Sacramento or San
> > Francisco, and during the next month the circus could have been
> > travelling around the state (doing shows in Modesto, Fresno,
> Visalia,
> > Bakersfield, Santa Barbara, San Bernardino, etc.) prior to
setting
> up
> > their tents to do shows in the Los Angeles area where--a month
> later--
> > Dixon has Armando help out with his fugitive Chimp friends.
> >
> > How nice it would've been if Bill Bonds, at the start of his
> > Eyewitness News segment, had given the DATE of the broadcast,
just
> as
> > the announcer does at the beginning of Tom Brokaw's broadcasts
> every
> > night! About the only other possible "clue" as to when certain
> events
> > take place is that Disneyland "jungle cruise" ride which
Cornelius
> > helps to inaugurate. I wonder if Disneyland actually DID have a
> > jungle cruise ride commence operations in 1973... if so, then
> exactly
> > what date might it have been "christened"? Also, it would've been
> > nice if the Chairman of the Presidential Commission would've
> > mentioned the date in a more specific way than just "the year of
> our
> > Lord Nineteen Hundred Seventy Three"... why not give the MONTH
and
> > the DAY while you're at it, buster?! I guess that would've been
too
> > convenient for us POTA fans.
> >
> > Since winter doesn't officially begin until late December (the
> 21st,
> > usually), then One Month prior to that would be late November,
> > meaning that Armando's circus COULD have been in the Los Angeles
> area
> > up until mid-November or so, where temperatures are still
> relatively
> > nice (Latitude 34 N), while simultaneously a northerly city like
> > Fargo (at Latitude 47 N) is often under a foot or more of snow.
> Thus,
> > we have an August-to-November window of opportunity in which to
> place
> > the events of ESCAPE, with late September/early October as
> > the "mean".
> >
> > Hey, if anybody has a super-duper pristine High Def TV on which
to
> > watch it, try to see if there's anything telling on that
chalkboard
> > in the Zoo with the names of the personnel listed on it (i.e.
> > Branton, Dixon, etc.). Anything with a date on it which my 27" TV

> Thanks Patrick. Yeah, you're right. It's quarters. I picked

> One thing I am sure about is that Armando and Caesar in "Conquest"

> Another thing I would like to bring up is the technology

> In my story I have hover cars that are in introduction stage as

> However, I should also point out that in CONQUEST there is mention

> So, it all depends on how long it would take a ship full of cargo

> Did it go "clockwise" around the Pacific Ocean (i.e. Northward, to

I'm sorry about all the cross-posting, but I wanted you all to know that I've put up Dave Ballard's newest POTA tv series fan fiction up at this url on my pota tv series fan site:  http://planetoftheapestv.150m.com/sleepinggods.html" .  It's called "Sleeping Gods".  It's really a great story, dealing with a new adventure a the astronauts and Galen travel further away from Central City.  Y'all probably know Dave is THE most prolific POTA fan fic author out there, and it doesn't hurt that his stories are so good!  Hope you enjoy.

Also, I've been lazy and made a link on the first page of my site referring to Mez's info re: the new pota club -  hope that's okay. Her information said it all, so I thought it best, and most efficient.

> In a message dated 1/11/03 11:30:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > if you take into account the fact that the city MUST be on the

>
> Doesn't it then make more sense that shipments of apes, mostly from

>
> Also, since the mutants in BENEATH are supposed to be the

>
> AND THAT's THAT!!!!
>
> -- Rory

> From: "patrickmichaeltilton"
>
> The shipment into which Caesar sneaks is called "Shipment five-oh-

>

>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> I hate to tell you, but "most people" say 7th May 1991. The USA is
the only place in the world where it was 9/11. Everywhere else, it
was 11/9 (or the eleventh of September).
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong, internationals.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> Sent: Sunday, 12 January 2003 6:31 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Numbers...
> >
> ~~~~~~Whatever the numbers are, I always guess that the 5-0-7, etc.
are the SHIPMENT numbers, not anything having to do with dates... The
5-0-7 would be the 507th shipment of apes received at that particular
Ape Management center...
>
> *** Yeah, it's a possibility. Still, I prefer a calendrical
explanation. Aside from the military (which usually states a date
as "Day-Month-Year", as in 7 May 1991), most other people go "May
Seventh, 1991", and write it numerically as "5-07-1991" pronouncing
the "07" as "oh-seven" rather than "zero-seven". Look at the
chronometers in Taylor's ship's cockpit: each "date", whether Earth-
Time or Ship-Time is in the form "Month-Day-Year", as in "11-25-3978"
which Taylor sees before his ship sinks.
> Your explanation's just as valid as mine, though. To each their
own.
>
> Patrick

> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "libraryape <toosexy4u54@h...>"
> <toosexy4u54@h...> wrote:
> > Thanks Patrick. Yeah, you're right. It's quarters. I picked
> chorridors because that's all my brain could think up when I was
> writing out the question. I don't think I even got Armando's line
> right. Yes, it is too bad ESCAPE had no indicator as to what date

> month it was. I guess it wasn't important other than the year.I

> that September or October is the appropriate time Caesar was born.
>
> > One thing I am sure about is that Armando and Caesar

> arrived in Breck's city in early spring. The trees in bloom is

> enough.
>
> *** Hmmm. Interesting point. However, a lot of this depends upon
> exactly WHERE Breck's city is situated... and, if you've read

> the archives of this POTA site, you'll know that there's been a big
> disagreement over that. There are those who think that Breck's city
> is on the East Coast (even that it is somehow a part of New York

> itself), because they feel that the Mutants who have the Doomsday
> Bomb [in BATTLE] wouldn't have trekked any great distance from
> the "silo" in old "Ape Management" (where it's at in BATTLE) to St.
> Patrick's Cathedral (where it ends up, in BENEATH).
> However, the impression that I always got was that Breck's city was
> on the West coast of America, for two reasons, the first being that
> in John Jakes' novelization, he has a paragraph in the "Prologue"
> which I'll quote below:
>
> -------
> The policeman drew in a breath of the cool, fresh air. Two years
> ago, in 1989, the last of the huge air-scrubbing plants,

> at a cost of billions along the mountain chain a hundred miles
> eastward, had, in combination with stringent laws, made it pleasant
> to breathe again--at least in this American city. The policeman
> couldn't speak for others, never having traveled much.
> -------
>
> Now, if you look at a map of the United States (the title sequence
> says that it's "North America: 1991", and this paragraph narrows it
> down to "this American city"--meaning, it ain't in either Canada or
> Mexico, etc.), and if you take into account the fact that the city
> MUST be on the coast, since SHIPMENTS of Apes arrive from overseas
> (in, of course, SHIPS, which require ports), then in order for this
> city to have an "air-scrubbing plant" at a distance of 100 miles
> EASTWARD, then the port city MUST be WESTWARD of the mountain chain
> where the air-scrubbing plant is... right? Of course!
>
> There are TWO mountain ranges which are about 100 miles eastward of
> specific locales on the West coast of the United States: the

> (descending from the middle of north Washington state to about Mt.
> Shasta in northern California) and the Sierra Nevada Range, from
> about Lake Tahoe down to Bakersfield, in southern California. There
> are NO cities (or sites for "futuristic" cities) on the East coast
> where there could conceivably be a mountain range 100 miles

> unless you suppose that the shipments of Apes sailed up the St.
> Lawrence seaway and into Lake Ontario: that little stretch of beach
> on the eastern coastline of Lake Ontario (look for a town called
> Pulaski) is about 100 miles west of the Adirondack Mountains... but
> it's kind of ridiculous (I think) to suppose that a transoceanic
> shipment would bother going that far out of the way, when it would

> much easier for a shipment bound for the East coast of America to
> dock either at Boston, or New York City, and THEN for the shipment

> be offloaded onto overland transportation westward (or

> to any locale near Pulaski, New York.
>
> So, then, I think it's more likely that Breck's city (taking John
> Jakes' "air-scrubbing plants" into account, 100 miles EAST of the
> place) is on the West coast--probably in southern California, about
> 100 miles west of the Sierra Nevada Range.
>
> The other reason (I did say there were two) that I've always

> Breck's city was on the West coast is due to an article in
> MARVEL's "POTA" magazine (issue #11), "OUTLINES OF TOMORROW: A
> CHRONOLOGY OF THE PLANET OF THE APES". Mind you, I don't take this
> article as "gospel" by any means; for example, after checking out

> mountain ranges that are about 100 miles EAST of the West coast, I
> found only two: the Cascades and the Sierra Nevadas... but in the
> article, Jim Whitmore mentions that "Pollution in many areas

> under control. A massive air purification plant in the Rockies

> California air perfectly clean." Unfortunately, the Rocky Mountains
> are about 500 miles east of California! Jim Whitmore, the author of
> the Marvel article, obviously had John Jakes' novelization in mind
> when he mentions the "air purification plant"... but he must not

> bothered to look at a map, which clearly shows the Sierra Nevada
> range to be the likely bunch of mountains where the "air-scrubbing
> plant" is located, rather than the Rockies, which are 5 times as

> away!
>
> Anyway, in the article (under the year-date heading of "1991")
> Whitmore mentions that in "April: Armando decides that Caesar, now
> nearly eighteen and an accomplished performer, is old enough to see
> the truth of the Ape Condition. He brings the circus in to play at

> unnamed city on the West Coast, very likely San Francisco (judging
> from interior data.) Events of CONQUEST OF THE PLANET OF THE APES
> begin."
> And, "June: Eighteen years after his birth Caesar comes of age at

> head of the Ape Rebellion."
> Mind you, Whitmore dates the events of ESCAPE from April-to-June of
> 1973, so that June of 1991 would be when Caesar "comes of age".
>
> So, then, I've always considered CONQUEST and BATTLE to have taken
> place at a city somewhere on the West Coast of the United States,
> although I don't take the Marvel article by Whitmore nor the John
> Jakes novelization of CONQUEST as "gospel". Whitmore's article was
> designed to be a Timeline of the POTA movies and TV show, AND two

> the Marvel stories ("Terror on the Planet of the Apes"--dated from
> 2070 A.D.--and "Evolution's Nightmare"--dated at 2220 A.D.). In the
> Marvel story "Terror on the POTA", they have a "rival" group of
> Mutants, the huge "Gestalt" Brains which control populations of
> bionic drones; according to Whitmore's article, the "mutants are
> splitting into factions under the leadership of Mendez and the

> destined Become One of the Gestalt mind" (although I'd always

> of the "B" in "B-One" [etc.] to stand for "Brain", rather
> than "Become"!); "In the city, the mutant factions have gone into

> with one another, Be-One winning out. Mendez and his loyal

> manage to escape into trans-national transport tubes and work their
> way towards an unknown new home. They carry with them the Alpha-

> device, which has begun to carry an almost religious significance
> with it" (all of this from "2040-to-2052").
>
> Although I don't take either the Whitmore "Timeline" article or
> Jakes' novelization as "gospel", I DO like certain ideas in them,

> wit: the "air-scrubbing plants" in the Sierra Nevada Mts., and
> the "trans-national transport tubes". For the purposes of the POTA
> project that I'm working on, CONQUEST takes place at an "arcology"
> about halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles, a site which
> subsumes the towns of San Simeon and Cambria, and is called "San
> Simeon" (the press-packet for BATTLE was a faux newspaper called
> the "San Simian Sentinel", due--if I'm not mistaken--to the fact

> BATTLE was screened at the Hearst Castle at San Simeon, punning
> on "Simeon"/"Simian". The reason I don't have Breck's city (which I
> place at "San Simeon") as either Los Angeles or San Francisco is

> to the fact that the streetnames mentioned in CONQUEST and BATTLE
> ("the corner of Breck and Ackerman", etc.) don't jive with either
> city, and San Francisco is seen (in the TV episode "The Trap") to

> in far better condition in 3085 than the nuked wreck seen in BATTLE
> from more than a millennium before: in other words, San Francisco
> somehow did NOT get nuked, since the buildings are still standing,
> some of them with their windows intact (a nuke would've blasted out
> and/or melted any glass within ten miles of Ground Zero), in 3085.
>
> You mentioned your belief that CONQUEST takes place in early

> due to the "trees in bloom". However, if this takes place in

> California (as I prefer), then the trees could well be "in bloom"
> throughout the year, since winter doesn't set in along the coast. I
> would suspect that IF it took place in springtime, then people in

> city would be acclimated to the slightly cooler temperatures of the
> southern California winter season, and in spring it would feel much
> warmer--meaning that people would be wearing warm-weather clothing,
> like shorts and t-shirts. However, even in the outdoors scenes,
> people seem to be dressing in more skin-covering clothing than you
> would expect for southern California... unless the summer season

> over and it was getting slightly chillier out, say in October or

> And, keeping in mind that Armando's circus heads from California to
> Florida around October or so (see my last posting), then IF Breck's
> city IS in S. California, CONQUEST might very likely be taking

> at the same relative time as ESCAPE, albeit 18 years later, around
> September or October. So, then, I date the events of CONQUEST to
> September-to-October or so of 1991. But, hey, feel free to devise
> your own chronology. Mine is "gospel" only for ME.
>
> However, I should also point out that in CONQUEST there is mention

> two specific dates: May 5th and May 9th. The shipment into which
> Caesar sneaks is called "Shipment five-oh-seven I-for-Indonesia ex
> Borneo", and another shipment, which arrived the same day, is
> called "Shipment five-oh-nine A-for-Africa ex French Cameroons".
> The "five-oh-seven" and "five-oh-nine" stand for May 5th and May

> in my opinion. But, since they both arrived the same day, it must
> mean (or, it PROBABLY means) that those shipments were LOADED at
> their respective locations (Borneo and French Cameroons) on those
> dates in May, NOT that they arrived on those dates (since they

> the SAME day, yet one is 5-07 and the other is 5-09), and that the
> ships went on their transoceanic routes to their various ports-of-
> call, stopping at cities along the way, and ending up at Breck's

> city perhaps MONTHS later. The guy at Ape Management, whom Kolp
> phones to check on the Borneo shipment, calls out for "the

> file from LAST MONTH", meaning that CONQUEST takes place in a 2-

> period, starting when the shipment arrived at Breck's city and

> sometime in the next month.
> So, it all depends on how long it would take a ship full of cargo
> from Indonesia/Borneo to travel along its transoceanic route to
> Breck's city. I work at a MEDIA PLAY store, and help unload & sort
> the truck delivery, and our store is the last one on the truck's
> route; the truck makes stops at two or three other stores before
> getting to our store. Similarly, the ship which delivered the
> orangutans to Breck's city might very well have made stops at

> of port cities between Borneo and southern California (Caesar
> mentions "apes on the FIVE CONTINENTS" taking part in the

> so that the ship, having left on 5 May 1991, might have taken

> to reach Breck's city--perhaps even as late as September or

> Did it go "clockwise" around the Pacific Ocean (i.e. Northward, to
> Japan, East Russia, Alaska, Canada, Seattle, Portland, San
> Francisco, "Breck's City", etc.), or did it go "counter-clockwise"
> (i.e. Southward, to Australia, New Zealand, South America, Central
> America, Mexico, Los Angeles, "Breck's City", etc.)? There's just

> way of knowing for sure... but if it did leave Borneo on 5 May

> then CONQUEST most probably could not have taken place in "early
> spring", since spring goes from ~21 March to ~20 June, and by early
> May it's usually pretty damn warm in southern California. Since it
> appears to be NOT so damn warm during the events of CONQUEST, then
> I'd guess that it's cooling off, in the autumn of 1991, months

> that shipment first left Borneo on 5 May 1991. And, after doing
> circus shows in this southern California area (just like 18 years
> earlier), Armando hoped to go back to their winter quarters in
> Florida... but, alas, that was not to be...
>
>
> > Another thing I would like to bring up is the technology
> in "Conquest". I've been inventing my own technology, calling the
> phone-computer a telemonitor. Much of what I put into my tangent of
> POTA is close to what we have today, such as remote, disk and so

> > In my story I have hover cars that are in introduction stage as
> hybrid electric cars are in our reality. You have any disputes or
> ideas? Should I limit myself or just keep inventing technology and
> the names that go with it?
>
> *** Disputes? Not really. In CONQUEST, there's no evidence

> cars" (Armando gets to Breck's city via Helicopter, and an old-
> fashioned truck brings a cage-full of orangutans (and one
> chimpanzee!) from the ship-dock to Ape Management), although you
> could suppose that in the time between CONQUEST and the Nuke War,

> the Ape Rebellion is springing up here-and-there, that hovercars

> developed and utilized for a few years before the nukes start
> blastin' away. I date BATTLE at 2018 (autumn), due to Mandemus'

> about being the guardian of the Armory for 27 years (added to 1991,
> it equals 2018), and Mendez tells Kolp that it's been "12 years of
> peace", which means that SOMETHING non-peaceful happened 12 years
> before 2018, in 2006, which is when I date the Nuke War. So, then,

> the 15 years between CONQUEST (in 1991) and the Nuke War (which I
> date at 2006), there could have been hovercars around... but, alas,
> Kolp never did get any "off the ground", so to speak, for use

> Caesar during his invasion of Caesar's tree-fort village "Ape

>
> In CONQUEST, they showcased an invention that we--as yet--do not

> at our disposal: the "Authenticator". It seems to me that any

> fictional extrapolation of the POTA saga should feel free to add to
> the "inventions" that are already in it: the Authenticator, the
> Doomsday Bomb, the Hassleinian starship propulsion drive, etc. You

> right on ahead inventing technologies, and I promise that I, for

> won't be bothered in the slightest as long as it is technologically
> feasible (and not just some goofy implausible/improbable/impossible
> gadget). Hovercars have been done in other SF stories, so I don't

> any problem with incorporating them into the POTA saga, though the
> only hovercar-like technology that my scenario will have is for the
> futuristic civilization which publishes the Book that Farrow kept

> of his fireplace, due to its pictures: one of which shows a "city

> the future" called "New York City" in the year 2503, though it can
> NOT be the same NYC seen in ruins in BENEATH (ruins from the late
> 20th/early 21st century). But THAT is a whole nuther topic!
>
> Patrick
>
> P.S. Incidentally, the reason that I dig Marvel's idea of
> those "trans-national transport tubes" (through which Whitmore
> speculates Mendez' group takes the Alpha Omega bomb, from

> to New York City, eventually), is that the Bomb was NOT in Breck's
> city during CONQUEST (as far as anybody knows... and WHY would it
> have been there, anyway? It belongs at a MILITARY base, doesn't

> but it somehow ends up there prior to the time that BATTLE takes
> place. How DOES it get to Breck's city (now, Kolp's city)? WHY does
> the Bomb get brought to a CITY, rather than remain at a military
> facility?
> Between the Nuke War (in 2006, according to my chronology) and

> (in 2018, my chronology again), there's 12 years of events we know
> little about, including the "event" which led to the U.S. military
> forces relinquishing the Doomsday Bomb, which winds up in the hands
> of "Governor Kolp" (Governor Breck died, Kolp mentions, during the
> Nuke War). How might the Bomb have arrived in Kolp's city, and did

> arrive there BEFORE or AFTER the Nuke War? Would the U.S. Army have
> shipped it there overland, on a flat-bed truck? Or... would they

> made use of subsurface "trans-national transport tubes", which

> nations could not track via satellite imaging?
> That's why I like that cross-country tunnel idea--it makes sense
> militarily for the U.S. government to ship top-secret military

> around from place-to-place UNDERGROUND, where enemy nations CAN'T
> know where it is at any given time. I envision a remnant of U.S.
> military types in one of these underground tunnels (which link
> military bases to each other and to major cities where the military
> might need its presence "inserted"), carting the Doomsday Bomb from
> one site to another... yet the nearest site feasible just happens

> be a certain port city which WAS nuked, but which still has a
> SUBLEVEL intact, since (as MacDonald tells Caesar in BATTLE) "many
> sections of the underground city... were designed to survive the
> impact of a ten-megaton overblast". Thus, the Bomb is brought to
> Kolp's city, where he--being the new Governor--is in command under
> Martial Law. After Kolp's death, Mendez--who would know about the
> underground tunnel system--would be in a position to use those
> tunnels later on, in order to evacuate Breck's/Kolp's "Forbidden"
> city, in search of a better place to build a future for his Bomb-
> worshipping cult. Over the course of several years, such
> a "pilgrimage" from a southern California coastal city to the
> underground remnant of New York City would transpire. Perhaps they
> fled the Southern California region for the same reason that Burke
> didn't want to go to San Francisco in "The Trap": "a building might
> fall down on us" due to earthquakes. If Mendez' group remains in

> ruined city, they might have to deal with earthquakes too much of

> time... so why not just pack up and leave? Migrate through those
> tunnels to a better location, bringing their Bomb-God with them,

> like the Israelites bringing the Ark of the Covenant along from the
> Tabernacle at Mt. Sinai to Jerusalem (eventually), where they build

> Temple for it... a "temple" which was once St. Patrick's Cathedral.

> I hate to tell you, but "most people" say 7th May 1991. The USA is

> only place in the world where it was 9/11. Everywhere else, it was

> (or the eleventh of September).
>
> Please correct me if I am wrong, internationals.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: patrickmichaeltilton <patrickmichaeltilton@y...>
> [patrickmichaeltilton@y...]
> Sent: Sunday, 12 January 2003 6:31 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Numbers...
> >
>

> the numbers are, I always guess that the 5-0-7, etc. are the

> numbers, not anything having to do with dates... The 5-0-7 would be
> the 507th shipment of apes received at that particular Ape

> center...
>
> *** Yeah, it's a possibility. Still, I prefer a calendrical
> explanation. Aside from the military (which usually states a date
> as "Day-Month-Year", as in 7 May 1991), most other people go "May
> Seventh, 1991", and write it numerically as "5-07-1991" pronouncing
> the "07" as "oh-seven" rather than "zero-seven". Look at the
> chronometers in Taylor's ship's cockpit: each "date", whether Earth-
> Time or Ship-Time is in the form "Month-Day-Year", as in "11-25-

> which Taylor sees before his ship sinks.
> Your explanation's just as valid as mine, though. To each their

>
> Patrick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Patrick,
>
> I believe Breck's city is north of San Fansico, or is in fact San

>
> It is hard to know exactly where "Conquest" and "Battle" took

>
> I rather like your statement about the mutant's moving their bomb

>
> The idea that the bomb came from the East coast isn't revelant in

>
> In regards to hover cars? Well, in my mind the cars are still in

>
> I am rather curious as to what set off the nuclear war. Luckily in

>
> ONe thing I would like to bring up Patrick is your book. YOU said

>
> Wendy
>
> PS. A few weeks ago I was watching Far Scape that was about worm

>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>
> <A
HREF="http://www.coldfusionvideo.com/book/planetofapesrevisited.htmlquot;>
Click here: Cold Fusion Review: Planet of the Apes Revisited</A>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@a... wrote:
>
> Did it ever occur to you that the reason the cities aren't melted,
> etc. in the tv series is because they didn't have a matte shot
> painted to depict the way they looked in BATTLE/BENEATH... I'm sure
> they didn't want to spend needlessly on "melting" any sets, so they
> just opted to use what was available (and painted the matte shots
> to match what they were going to use...) My guess is that it "was
> supposed to be nuked", but because of budgetary constraints they
> went for a more cost effective setting.

> Did it ever occur to you that the reason the cities aren't melted,

> > Did it ever occur to you that the reason the cities aren't

> etc. in the tv series is because they didn't have a matte shot
> painted to depict the way they looked in BATTLE/BENEATH... I'm sure
> they didn't want to spend needlessly on "melting" any sets, so they
> just opted to use what was available (and painted the matte shots

> match what they were going to use...) My guess is that it "was
> supposed to be nuked", but because of budgetary constraints they

> for a more cost effective setting.
>
> *** Hmmm... it seems to me that with the money they spent to dress

> the "set" (which they used in both "The Trap" and "The Legacy") as

> appears, covering several city blocks of "ruins", they could have
> probably spent the same money to dress up a set of an even more
> ruined city. Hell, they could have done a few matte paintings
> to "establish" the whole area as a nuked city, and THAT would not
> have cost them much: a matte painting is the EASIEST type of

> effect to do--all you have to do is PAINT, for Pete's sake (and for
> Alan's sake, to boot!). That one matte painting of the ruined NYC
> skyline they used in BENEATH (right before the Mutant church

> scene) was an EASY effect to do, and a similar one could've been

> for the TV show.
> As for the actual exterior sets, they COULD have gone "minimalist"

> this, too. Rather than show several city blocks, they might have

> built a relatively few portions of skyscrapers sticking out of the
> sand; we could've imagined that the little bit that's still visible
> on the surface has been filled in by buildings which've fallen into
> the streets, over which the dust blown in by winds over the past

> years has covered up MOST of what had been there to point to the
> presence of artifacts of an ancient civilization.
> Other shows did "post-nuclear-war" imagery ("The Twilight Zone" for
> one) in cost-effective ways, so the POTA-TV show could have done a
> similar job of it. I find it somewhat telling that although Virdon

> Burke mention that those ruins represent a "disaster", they do NOT
> talk about any post-NUKE effects, like any possible radiation

> (remember Virgil and that Geiger counter, in BATTLE?). When Urko,
> in "The Trap" mentions that the air is evil, Burke speculates that

> might be Gas or something. He doesn't ever speculate that they're
> being exposed to dangerous levels of radiation.
> And that leads me to wonder: WHY don't the astronauts have any fear
> of radiation exposure? When Virdon wants to go to the city where
> Miller's daughter found those artifacts, and when they make their
> approach, WHY doesn't Burke (who isn't all that thrilled about

> there, for fear of an Earthquake which might cause "a building to
> fall on us") warn Virdon & Galen about any possible residual
> radiation they might be exposed to? If he thinks it's a site which
> had been NUKED, then it's a legitimate worry--yet, as they

> it, I suspect that they could tell that it, although a ruin, had

> suffered a nuclear blast. Quite frankly, TOO MANY BUILDINGS are

> standing, with rather little damage having happened to them! We've
> all seen footage of nuclear testing: that famous footage of a
> blastwave putting the smackdown on a two-story building... I'm sure
> you know what I'm talking about.
> Look at that dream sequence from "Terminator 2" of Sarah Conner's
> precognitive vision of a nuke going off. THAT is the kind of effect
> that Burke & Virdon KNOW a nuke has. What THEY and what WE (the
> audience) see of the ruins of San Francisco and Oakland is NOT what
> one would expect from a supposedly nuked site. The effects for

> (a project that was done on a shoestring budget!) more accurately
> reflect what one would expect of a truly nuked city.
>
> That's my take on it, anyway. Plenty of other sites all over

> suffered nukes melting & blasting away everything... but THESE two
> neighboring cities somehow were SPARED a nuclear death, unless it

> been a Neutron Bomb which was used there, to kill the people, yet
> allow the buildings to remain standing. The occasional earthquakes
> that part of the country routinely experiences, stretched out over
> the course of another 1000 years, would easily account for all the
> visible damage we see. And one of Urko's gorillas mention that "the
> earth shakes OFTEN... many die". Over the course of that one

> ("The Trap"), there are at least THREE earthquakes: the one when

> & his pals are cooking their food, the one which happens as Urko is
> trying to lasso Burke, AND that last one "for the road" at the end

> the episode. If such a frequency of tectonic activity is present
> then, and HAD been going on for the last millennium, then it's a
> wonder that MORE damage hasn't happened to these "ruined" cities.
>
> Patrick

> Hi, Wendy.

> liked what I have seen. As for that Einsteinian remark
> about "unrealized reality", I didn't see that particular episode,

> the impression I get is that it's a term original to "Farscape"--

> is, I don't recall ever seeing such a term in any "textbook"
> discussion of Einstein's theories.

> like the Hasslein theory about Time being like "a highway with an
> infinite number of lanes, all leading from the Past into the
> Future..." where the Future HE hopes WILL happen will be a CHANGED
> one, so that the "other" Future (from which the Ape-onauts came)--
> however "real" it was to them--will NOT come to pass... and, hence,
> would remain an "unrealized reality", to use the "Farscape" term.

> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> By the way, is your story (and your POTA scenario) taking into
> account only the movies? Or are you also considering the TV series

> be part of the "canon" of the "official" POTA history? The reason

> wondering this is in regards to your having Breck's city "in fact

> Francisco"; I mentioned in my last posting that I don't consider

> two cities to be the same, due to the fact that Breck's city
> undergoes a nuclear bombardment (the radioactive rubble seen in
> BATTLE), whereas the TV episode "The Trap" takes place in San
> Francisco, a good chunk of it in a "Bay Area Rapid Transit" (BART)
> subway station which has an exit onto "Sutton Street", and the
> condition of that city--almost 1,100 years after the nuclear war--

> nowhere near as bad as what Breck's city endured. As I said before,
> if San Francisco had been hit by a nuke, there's no way in hell

> any glass in the city would survive (i.e. the windows in the
> buildings, etc.): they would all be melted by the intense heat

> blasted out by the shockwave.

> Legacy" takes place just across the Bay, in Oakland (remember
> the "Oakland Science Institute"?), so that both of these "Bay Area"
> cities--though in ruins--are NOT in nuclear-bombed-out ruins. It
> looks more like they were just abandoned and then subjected to
> occasional earthquakes (like the one in "The Trap" which caused the
> side of a building to fall down on the hole in the ground into

> Urko & Burke fell).
>
> The ONLY type of "nuclear" attack these cities seem to have

> (and only POSSIBLY) is a "neutron bomb" attack: a device which,

> detonated, only sends out a deadly pulse of radiation which kills

> the people in the city yet leaves the real estate intact. Yet

> city--unlike San Francisco & Oakland--is definitely hit by at least
> one nuclear bomb, since Virgil describes it (as we can see it) as

> it had all melted and then resolidified.
> Of course, if you don't consider the TV show "canon", then you're
> free to think that Breck's city IS San Francisco, and that it is

> bombed-out remains of S.F. which are seen in BATTLE... and

> Trap" is irrelevant to your scenario.

> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In regards to the term "Mud people", it is generally considered a
> derogatory term used by "white"-skinned people (Caucasians) to

> to those with "dark" skin (skin the color of mud). "Mud" also
> connotes the "savage" aspect, as in the Aboriginal "Stone Age"
> populations of "backward", uncivilized places. A white racist might
> look at a black person--even if that person was wearing a 3-piece
> suit and carrying a briefcase & talking on a cellphone--and think

> him as "just another member of a Mud-race". As for it possibly
> meaning a "human-and-ape hybrid" race (a sort of cross-species
> version of the white-and-black "mulatto"), I don't think that the
> term "Mud people" has ever had that connotation--although, in the
> context of a POTA story in which there actually WAS a hybrid half-
> human/half-ape person, undoubtedly the racists of either species
> would come up with some derogatory word to label him/her. Are you
> aware that in BENEATH they were going to have just such a half-
> human/ape child, in the Forbidden Zone?

> makeup tests of this human-simian hybrid child... but that idea was
> ultimately nixed due to the controversy that such "bestiality"

> have occurred; after all, it would take the mating of a human and

> ape to create such a lifeform--unless the Mutants had the ability

> transgenically combine the genome of a human with an ape, selecting
> for certain traits from each genome, all via some sort of
> surgical "test-tube-baby" procedure (without the coitus).
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You wonder about how the Nuclear War is initiated, and it's

> I've wondered myself (it was discussed on this site around a year

> or so, but I couldn't tell you which Message # it was). We know

> Taylor knew about the "Alpha and Omega" bomb project (though it may
> have only been in the planning stages by the time he left in

> of 1972); we also know that the U.S.A. ultimately DID create the
> Doomsday Bomb, and that it somehow ended up in the possession of

> in the ruins of Breck's city (in the extended version of BATTLE).
> Yet, IF the U.S. had a Doomsday Bomb at its disposal... why didn't
> the U.S. actually USE it? In Kubrick's film "Dr. Strangelove", the
> Soviets have a "Doomsday Weapon" which is designed to be triggered

> the U.S.S.R. is subjected to a nuclear attack: the whole point of
> HAVING a "Doomsday" weapon/bomb is DETERRENCE. You make the "Enemy"
> so afraid of attacking you (due to the INEVITABLE activation of a
> Weapon which will kill EVERYBODY) that they DON'T ever risk an
> attack, "Mutually Assured Destruction" taken to an extreme. If the
> U.S. actually built a "Doomsday Bomb" (as it did, in the POTA
> universe), then it's purpose was to be detonated if an enemy nation
> (like the U.S.S.R.) were to wage a nuclear attack on America.
>
> So, then, is this circumstantial evidence that the U.S. was NOT
> attacked by another country (since the activation of the Doomsday
> Bomb is RETALIATORY) in a "first strike"? Does this mean that the
> U.S. is the guilty party, that America waged a "first strike"? Not
> necessarily; after all, even IF America struck first, its enemies

> retaliate (since American cities ARE subjected to nuclear
> bombardment, creating the "Forbidden" Zone(s) seen in the movies),
> and such a retaliatory strike would undoubtedly be as much of
> a "trigger" for the Doomsday Bomb as would a "first strike".
>
> I think that the most likely conclusion is that the personnel
> immediately in control of the Doomsday Bomb (and we're assuming

> only one of 'em was ever built, right?) did NOT want it to be
> detonated, despite the fact that THAT was its very purpose. Just

> the soldier in the opening scene of the movie "WARGAMES" who

> to "turn his key" in a "nuclear war scenario" test, there must've
> been those in the U.S. military who did not want the entire planet

> be wiped out, even if their own country had suffered a nuclear
> attack... so they, perhaps, "absconded" with the Doomsday Bomb,
> taking it away from those who wished it to be detonated. I suspect
> (and my POTA novel scenario has it this way) that the
> character "Mendez" in BATTLE was the guiding force behind this
> activity. Somehow, Mendez (bringing the Bomb with him) and a force

> soldiers loyal to him, gets through one of those "transnational
> transport tubes" burrowed-out by the U.S. military during the last
> half-century, and winds up in Breck's city--now run by Kolp, since
> Breck died during the nuclear war. In Dehn's original story for
> BENEATH (which was originally called "PLANET OF THE APES

> Mendez XXVI is the descendant of "Mendez I" (Mendez the First), as
> these paragraphs from page 50 of Dehn's screenplay shows:

> - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> [Scene] 132 GUARDS LEADING BRENT
>
> leading Brent down a long white corridor lined on one side by head-
> and-shoulder portraits--each titled and dated. We PAN them slowly
> from BRENT'S P.O.V., for they visually encapsule an aspect of the
> City's history.
> We START on an antique, cracked canvas in an old-fashioned gilded
> frame, labelled: MENDEZ I: 1997-B.3. The portrait is that of a
> handsome, strong-jawed, dark-haired, military-moustached soldier in
> the 20th century uniform of a U.S. Army five-star General. His
> likeness survives in the portrait of MENDEZ II-V, though the

> has been replaced by clothes and (later) robes of advancing

> The style of painting and framing advances, too; for the portraits
> are all by different hands.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> I'm not saying that the Mendez in BATTLE must necessarily have been
> an Army 5-star General, as Dehn's screenplay originally suggested,
> but it DOES make sense to me that Mendez (who, in BATTLE, seems to

> some sort of "peace-nik") had been affiliated with the military,
> since the Bomb had to get to Breck/Kolp's city SOMEHOW, since it's
> doubtful it was there during CONQUEST (it would've probably been at

> top-secret military base then), and SOMEBODY had to have been the
> guiding force behind the moving of the Bomb from whatever Base it

> been in to Breck's city. Mendez wasn't portrayed in CONQUEST;
> he "shows up" in BATTLE as somebody who--although "under" Governor
> Kolp in the Chain-of-Command--is clearly the "next highest" person

> Authority in the ruined city.
>
> On page 64 of Dehn's screenplay, he quotes Mendez XXVI as saying
> that "It is written that, in the First Year of the Bomb--when my
> remote forefather led his few, surviving people out of the

> of war on Earth's surface--the blessing of the Holy Fall Out
> descended on them from above... and they built this white, new City
> out of the blackened bowels of the old. And generation succeeded to
> generation. But the Spirit of the Holy Fall Out, still working

> us, has made our inmost selves so to shine, that none might behold
> such brightness save only the Bomb, our Creator. Blessed be the

> Everlasting... To whom alone we may reveal our inmost truth and...
> whom we have served all our days in peace."
>
> So, Mendez XXVI's "remote forefather", a military guy high enough

> in the ranks to have had access to the Bomb, "led his few,

> people"... probably taking the Bomb with him. At first, they get to
> Breck's city, now run by Governor Kolp; then, eventually, they

> the Bomb from the old "Ape Management" site area (where it is in
> BATTLE) and, perhaps several YEARS later, in time either Mendez or
> his "son" (Mendez II) or grandson leads at least a remnant of those
> still alive after Kolp's debacle on a journey which will take them
> all the way to the underground ruins of New York City.
>
> As for how the Nuke War is started, and WHO starts it, of late I've
> been of the opinion that the likeliest perpetrator of any
> nuclear "first strike" would be a totalitarian theocracy which had
> acquired nuclear weapons technology, and had surreptitiously

> some tactical nukes to a terrorist group which would do the actual
> nuking (via "briefcase" bombs, rather than using ballistic missiles
> to deliver them to their targets). Think of Iraq, or some similar
> religion-dominated country, getting ahold of ex-Soviet nukes (or
> having former Soviet scientists on their payroll to make nukes for
> them), and giving them to Al-Qaeda or Hamas or Islamic Jihad. Does
> anybody doubt that any of those terrorist groups would actually use
> nukes, if they had access to them? I think they would, in a
> heartbeat. The Cuban Missile Crisis notwithstanding, the World was

> hell of a lot safer when only the "superpowers" had the Bomb. India
> and Pakistan are on the verge... and North Korea's leaders have

> insane...
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> You also asked about my POTA book project, and about its length,

> if it was going to be a trilogy. It's been a while since I

> the basic set-up I'm using for my book, but I'll recap it for your
> sake.
> My original plan was to only write a prose adaptation of the first
> film, PLANET, since it was the only one of 'em which was NOT
> available as a novel (the movie was BASED on a novel, but of course
> the novel was not a "novelization" of the screenplay, as were the
> books of BENEATH through BATTLE). The more I thought about it,
> though, the more I realized that the story did not end with Taylor

> the Statue of Liberty... that HIS story goes on to him detonating

> Bomb--and Michael Avallone's novelization of BENEATH, in my mind,
> although "based" on Dehn's screenplay, was not as true to the

> movie as it could've been. Nor, for that matter, were the other
> films' novelizations (which sometimes differed drastically from the
> filmed versions--for example, Hasslein's first name in ESCAPE [the
> movie] is "Otto", but in Pournelle's novelization, it's "Victor").
> So, then, I decided to RE-ADAPT the four sequels, in addition to
> adapting PLANET... and since Effinger only adapted 8 of the 14 TV
> episodes, I thought to myself, "What the hell... why not re-adapt
> those 8 stories, too... AND adapt the other 6 while I'm at it?"
>
> Thus, my novel will tell the stories in this order:
>
> 1. ESCAPE, CONQUEST, BATTLE
>
> 2. PLANET "prologue" (= Taylor's "final report"), POTA-tv episodes
>
> 3. PLANET, BENEATH
>
> and, yes, it will be a "trilogy" of sorts. The entire novel will be
> 1000 pages long, subdivided in a pseudo-Dantean format, with each

> the 3 "books" having a 3-page prologue followed by 33 ten-page
> chapters, the 3rd Book having a 1-page epilogue to round out the
> grand total to 1000 pages. Or, ((3 + (33 x 10)) x 3) + 1 = 1000.

> page will be magazine-sized, 8.5 by 11 inches, with the long side
> horizontal, with 3 columns of text on each page, at 8-point

> so that each page will have the equivalent of about 4 pages of text
> of an average mass-market paperback book. For example, John Jakes'
> novelization of CONQUEST (the actual text of it) goes from page 5-

> 187, so that it's 183-pages-worth of text; if I were to reformat it
> like I'm doing my book, those 183-pages-worth of text would fit

> about 45 pages, or about 4 and a half 10-page chapters. My own re-
> novelizations will be more in-depth (partly due to my addition of
> other, original, characters who will be involved "behind-the-

> with the overarching story of the POTA saga), so that CONQUEST will
> actually be covered by 6 chapters of the 33 chapters in Book One of
> the Trilogy.
> Similarly, each of the 14 TV episodes will be covered in 2

> making 28 of the 33 chapters of Book 2 novelization, and the other

> chapters telling about what happens with the "As-tro-nauts"

> by Zaius & Urko, as well as the ultimate fates of Virdon, Burke,

> Galen...
>
> Why am I formatting my book in this way? As I said, this "pseudo-
> Dantean" format is comparable to the design of Dante's "Divine
> Comedy", which is 100 chapters ("cantos") long, each book
> ("canticle") having 33 cantos in it (except for the "Inferno",

> has 34, its 1st canto being an introductory canto to the whole

> Given the amount of ground my book has to cover, I wanted an
> aesthetically pleasing (to me) scheme which would similarly be able
> to be subdivided into not-too-big sized chunks. Each 10-page

> will correspond to about a 40-page mass-market paperback book-sized
> story, like a short story or novella.
>
> In addition to the live-action POTA movies (and TV episodes) which
> I'm adapting, there'll be--of course--a whole bunch of other stuff
> added to the Saga, not only to help make sense of it all (as I see
> it) but to explore various other subjects and themes which interest
> me in particular, and which I can--with little effort--introduce

> the POTA scenario. This book'll be my "magnum opus" in addition to
> being my tribute to my favorite movie of all time.
>
> The "trilogy" aspect, by the way, is a convenient way to present

> material (from a chronological standpoint), since the 1st Book will
> cover the events of the "Fall of Human Civilization", from the end

> World War 2 until the "calm before the storm" of 2670, when a group
> of Apes and Humans are living in harmony and at peace, just prior

> the writing of the human-bashing scriptures called "The Sacred
> Scrolls"...
>
> Book 2 will cover the "adventures" of Virdon, Burke, and Galen (who
> represent the solution to the race-hatred problems perpetuated by

> theology-based totalitarian Ape Civilization run by Zaius & Urko),

> addition to the untold story of the OTHER astronauts who landed

> than 10 years before 3085 (mentioned by Zaius & Urko in "Escape

> Tomorrow")...
>
> And Book 3 will tell the story of Taylor (etc.), including the

> story of the other astronauts who landed the "third ship" which

> finds (the one which--unlike either Taylor's (which sank in a lake)
> or Brent's (which ended up a wreck with a "shot" computer)--had
> a "gull-wing-hatch" on its cabin's port side (similar to Virdon's
> ship), and was still fully functional and able to be flown into
> orbit...
>
> It's an ambitious project which will probably never be
> published "officially" (due to copyright reasons and because it's
> gonna be a BIG honkin' tome!)... but, hey, it's a "labor of love"
> that I enjoy working on.

> I'm the ONLY guy who likes it, it'll still be worth it to me: I'm
> writing it for my own enjoyment & appreciation. If others dig it,
> that'd be nice... but I'm not counting on it. Chances are, I'll

> off so many people (and NOT just certain other POTA fans out

> due to my "take" on Politics, Religion, etc., that I'll probably

> a bunch of enemies. Ah, but since one of my heroes is Cyrano de
> Bergerac (as Rostand re-conceived the historical Cyrano in his
> dramaticized version), then I'd rather not "make friends... as a

> makes friends..." I mark these "canine courtesies" and say to
> myself, 'Thank God, another enemy!'
> Patrick
>
> P.S. By the way, the title of the mega-BigAssed-POTA-saga-book I'm
> writing will be "DESTINY OF THE PLANET OF THE APES", which I first
> mentioned on this site in one of my first postings, well over a

> ago. The word "destiny" crops up in the POTA Saga numerous times:
> 1.) Zira: "What will he find out there, Doctor?" Zaius: "His

> 2.) Armando: "I hate those who try to alter Destiny, which is the
> unalterable will of God."
> 3.) Caesar: "Destiny is the will of God... and if it IS Man's

> to be dominated, then it is God's Will that he be dominated with
> Compassion, and Understanding..."
> Although I'm partial to the "circular timeline" (which some, like
> Rory, don't cotton to), which is in the form of a "vicious circle"

> endless cycles of race-violence (read the end of chapter 4 of Eric
> Greene's book for more on that), a literal kind of "destiny", this
> does NOT mean that I personally believe that the REAL universe is
> governed by any Plan, whether that of a "god" or of a

> cabal whose metaphorical "hand" controls the "destiny" of our

> As Joyce Corrington says (in Greene's book), the Bomb

> destiny, if we don't work things out this is going to destroy us".
> Ultimately, the forces which end up destroying everything (in the
> POTA universe) are Nuclear (i.e. "Atomic", as Brent says), in the
> hands of Religious fanatics who are Racist, in conflict with others
> who are equally racist and fanatical in Religious matters.
>
> It is our curse to live in "interesting times", as the Chinese
> aphorism goes...

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "libraryape <toosexy4u54@h...>"
> <toosexy4u54@h...> wrote:
> > Patrick,
> >
> > I believe Breck's city is north of San Fansico, or is in fact San
> Fransico. By conceiving this fact as an abslute, I have placed my
> character's residence in the down-side of the city near Fisherman's
> Warf. I have never been in the city, so I am not sure exactly if

> down-side or the ghettos are even near "Fisherman's Warf" - thus I

> presuming. Basicly I am using "Pioneer Square" in Seattle that is
> the birth place of the term "Skid Rough" as back drop and/or matrix
> to where my character lives.
> >
> > It is hard to know exactly where "Conquest" and "Battle" took
> place". To pin-point the exact location is an exact science of a

> and a miss. To make the geography logical we can only piece

> the evidence shown on maps, and commonsense. You and I as writers
> feels that such attributes are important to the continuity of the
> storyline. (That is why I am asking you all these questions.)

> my money that "Conquest" took place on the West coast, northern
> California , I have adopted an idea I label as a presumable-

> unity. (In fact I am almost tempted to rename my tangent as "The
> battle of the Alternate Unviserses" or "The Golden Number" as

> in your math equation of the so called singlarity or paradox.

> in my tangent is very much a simile or metaphore depending if you

> the word 'like' or not.) Having read Phil Pullman's "Dark Material
> Series" I almost want to take the traditional route of paralell
> universes but I am not. Too predictable as is the redundant worm
> holes in the new POTA. Using presumable-parallel-unity I have

> Seattle as Evergreen City, the San Jauns as the "Soundreaches", the
> Olympic mountians the "Myths" where my character eventually ends up
> in her attempt to free the apes from slavery. As you can see my
> tangent is a facet,adding to the many events, out side of Caesar
> coming to the city, that can occure during "Conquest". I am
> uncertain of the title name of the comic series that involved
> the "mud people"( I learned about this from Eric Greene's "American
> Myth" .), but I am aiming that the Soundreach apes and humans are a
> part, a branch to, the mud people that are human-ape hybrids

> from the inspiration of the ethos of "Tylorism". (I know, it's

> not hybird and chorridors is really spelled, corridors - I'm
> learning ;0))(Oh yes, in Harry Potter the term "mud people" is used
> in referrance to "mud bloods"- half wizard, half muggles. I wonder

> it is a common term used in decribing a half-breeds.)In doing so, I
> am in the process of creating a history of the mud people or

> adjacent to them, keeping my character removed from any other

> that have been written or is in the process like yours Patrick. In
> fact I have mine so removed, it can stand on its own thus creating

> own univserse. Having trouble with Fox already, I have considered
> this idea heavily but has decided to keep my story in POTA universe.
> >
> > I rather like your statement about the mutant's moving their bomb
> via tunnel. Of course there was a comic series about that. YOu

> have mentioned this your letter. (Please forgive me, I am not into
> comics, never was. I hate waiting for the next issue which I

> miss.)
> >
> > The idea that the bomb came from the East coast isn't revelant in
> my book. In my ten years in reading and writing novels, I have
> learned that building a story, even a world, is vitally important

> that I must construct an interesting yet compliant history of world
> in which my character lives. (We all know that, right?) In doing so
> makes the people (characters) more dimensional. In Pota, the

> moving the bomb through the a vast array of tunnels while in

> with each other not only makes sense, but such a feat really adds
> flavor to the background of the story, which also includes the
> details as to how the Gesalt Mind developed into what Brent will

> in "Beneath". (Talking about tunnels they are a good referrence to
> the worm holes or Hasslein's "lanes of time" ) The bomb just

> up in St. Patrick's Catherdal or have the bomb JUST showup - its
> origins stemming from the East coast, is far too convenient and is

> coincidence that can lead to the tragic, crash and burn,

> end of of a story.
> >
> > In regards to hover cars? Well, in my mind the cars are still in
> the stages of developement. I want to thank you Patrick for giving
> me the feel that I can move freely in something that, for the most
> part, has been set in stone.
> >
> > I am rather curious as to what set off the nuclear war. Luckily

> my tangent my timeline only goes as far as the ape revolt.

> on the ending I will perhaps go as far as a month to year after the
> revolt. I don't know.
> >
> > ONe thing I would like to bring up Patrick is your book. YOU said
> it was pretty long. Don't worry. Each book, like "Peace and War"

> have its length. Yet I might ask if maybe your tangent is perhaps a
> trilogy. I find most drivative books, like Star Wars, are

> It makes reasonable sense for you to write for yourself, although I
> suspect, by judging in way you write, that you really must have
> something. My philo on my tangent is "I was born to write this".
> There is much truth to my words as well as my learning a lot that
> will help me in my future novels. :0)
> >
> > Wendy
> >
> > PS. A few weeks ago I was watching Far Scape that was about worm
> holes and paradoxes. As Criton talks to Einstien there is a term

> which Einstien uses - the unrealized reality. Is this phrase

> or is it Far Scape based?
> >

> That one matte painting of the ruined NYC
> skyline they used in BENEATH (right before the Mutant church service
> scene) was an EASY effect to do, and a similar one could've been

> for the TV show.

> Look at that dream sequence from "Terminator 2" of Sarah Conner's
> precognitive vision of a nuke going off. THAT is the kind of effect
> that Burke & Virdon KNOW a nuke has. What THEY and what WE (the
> audience) see of the ruins of San Francisco and Oakland is NOT what
> one would expect from a supposedly nuked site.

> This is news to me. I'll have to try and catch these movies

> SHE you're talking about must be a newer version?

> <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> > That one matte painting of the ruined NYC skyline they used in

>
> I wonder why they didn't just re-use it, albeit changed slightly so

>
> I actually noticed recently that at least two other post-

>
> > Look at that dream sequence from "Terminator 2" of Sarah Conner's

>
> We don't necessarily know that these cities were nuked though.

>
> Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:31 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: The cities...


> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Maxwell" <alan@a...> wrote:
> > <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:

. Of course,
> that would mean that people would drop dead of radiation poisoning
> rather quickly (i.e. within a few days, I'd estimate), so that maybe
> there should be more evidence of BODIES (or what's left of 'em) lying
> around in the streets. There'd also probably be huge lines of bumper-
> to-bumper traffic-jammed cars clogging the streets, since there HAD
> to have been some kind of advance knowledge that World War III was
> underway... yet little (if any) of the rubble in the streets in "The
> Trap" or "The Legacy" is of rusted-out automobiles.

Here's a thought:
How do we know that the "Nuke War" was completely nuclear? Why not also a
surprise attack with Ebola, smallpox or some other chemical agent like that
used in "Omega Man"? Throw in something that might have long-term genetic
effects on offspring, and that could explain the decline of the human race
after the War to first lethargy, then declining intelligence (as per the
POTA TV series), and finally muteness? I could see a very sadistic dictator,
or desperate Soviet biotech, trying to come up with a weapon that would
limit the capacity of the enemy to recover from a war. Maybe they didn't
know the full impact, or it boomeranged to destroy most of the human race.

Perhaps the Mutants' anti-radiation drugs aided resistance to the bioweapon,
and also explains their development of telepathic powers (IIRC, I have a
hazy memory of somebody trying experiments in things like ESP during the
Cold War). It's a reach, but we are talking alternate history after all.

> And, in chapter 6, Jakes has two paragraphs that read:
>
> His [Caesar's] excellent time sense told him the journey lasted
> about half an hour. Evidently they were driving into the thinly
> populated green spaces surrounding the metro complex. He recalled
> Armando telling him that, once, such areas had sprawled with ugly row
> houses and huge shopping malls. But with the rise of powerful
> centralized government, strictly enforced law and order had been
> restored to the cities, and a rebuilding process had begun in the
> decayed central cores.
> Gradually, a reverse migration took place. Mile after mile of
> emptied suburban slums were leveled, and returned to parklands and
> agriculture. City dwellers now called such exurban areas "the
> provinces."

And of course the exurban provinces were the future locale of Ape City. I
envy you having a copy of Jakes' novelization. I finally ran across a used
copy of Battle at a sci-fi bookstore a while back, but didn't remember ever
seeing a copy of Conquest anywhere (even when I was a kid in the 70's).
>
> Could it be that the "major metro complexes" aren't all necessarily
> the "old" cities, but are "state-of-the-art" New cities, with all the
> latest long-term planning and "futuristic" designs built into them?

Explain the rusted out autos and transportation used by the survivors of
Breck's City in Battle, and the melted remnants of 70's model cars in the
nuked ruins. You'd think that even in a bomb shelter, they'd have had more
recent transportation available to save from the impact of nuclear war. I
could see restoring antique transportation that survived EMP, but there
wouldn't have been clearly ancient cars in the ruins.

By the way, after driving from San Francisco to Monterrey a few times on
Highway 101, I had an image of Caesar's Ape City being located around one of
those agricultural communities south of San Jose (maybe in the mountains
west of 101).

> And of course the exurban provinces were the future locale of Ape

> Explain the rusted out autos and transportation used by the