----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 6:54 AM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] "I can speak, so I spoke!"


> With all this yakkin' about "democracy" (etc.), it just goes to show
> that people who live in the Modern World--which owes its existence to
> the radical Founders of the U.S.A.--don't really understand the
> difference between a Democracy and a Republic.
>
> A Democracy (from Greek words meaning "rule by the Masses/Mob/Crowd")
> is a type of government where 51%, the majority, can "legally"
> disenfranchise the minority 49%. If 51% (or 50.00000001%, even) of
> the people want to make the Rules and force their way on any minority
> group, then such people--confident that their group will remain the
> Majority--will unhesitatingly opt for a Democracy as their form of
> government.
>
> The United States was NOT, I repeat: NOT! founded as a Democracy. The
> U.S.A. is a REPUBLIC, in the true sense of the word. Sure, a lot of
> crummy nations CALL themselves Republics (Iraq & Iran, for instance,
> usually call themselves "The Republic of Iraq", etc.)--as in
> the "Union of Soviet Socialist REPUBLICS"... but that's like Mark
> Antony calling Brutus & Cassius "honorable men". Those nations
> were/are Dictatorships and Totalitarian regimes. When they call
> themselves "republics" they do a disservice to the very word.
>
> How is a Republic different from a Democracy? Simple: in a Republic,
> there is no Rule by the Majority (a Democracy), or by the "Best" (an
> Aristocracy), or by a Religion (a Theocracy), or by the Few (an
> Oligarchy), or by One Person (a Monarchy, or Autocracy); instead,
> there is a RULE OF LAW which applies to EVERYBODY. Likewise,
> EVERYBODY is deemed the possessor of Un-take-away-able RIGHTS, such
> as the right to be ALIVE (and to maintain Life), the right to be
> FREE, and the right to PURSUE HAPPINESS. Other rights, such as the
> right to PRIVACY, to OWN PROPERTY, to (UN-)BELIEF in the Religion of
> one's choice--these rights are also an inherent part of the equation.
> These rights aren't bestowed upon the People by any government: they
> are possessed by each Individual simply by the act of EXISTING. In
> the words of Jefferson, "... all men [i.e. Human beings] are created
> equal" and "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights"
> etc. For "Creator", a Christian would interpret "Jesus Christ", a Jew
> would say "Adonai Elohim", a Muslim would say "Allah", a Zoroastrian
> would say "Ahura Mazda", an Atheist would say "Nature", etc.
> Regardless of Who or What bestowed those Rights, they are ours
> innately from Birth.
>
> The Bill of Rights--which was written specifically to RESTRICT the
> powers of the Federal Government--says, in no uncertain terms, that
> Congress shall make NO LAW abridging the People's rights to Speech
> (to Say what they WANT to say), or of the Press (to Publish what they
> want to say).
>
> Why do I have an inherent aversion to the POTADG site? Mike's
> penchant for seeking to impose RULES that restrict the ability of
> certain people to SAY what they want to say on the public "press"
> that is the Message Board of that group. Speech which is considered
> by "the Majority" (read Mike's most recent posts here) to
> be "unacceptable" is to be rooted out, and the speaker is to be
> kicked out if he/she won't tow-the-line and abide by the "rules". T
> was "warned" about his unacceptable views... and they used their
> Power to suppress them.
>
> The 1st Amendment doesn't exist to safeguard opinions that the
> Majority AGREES with. It exists to protect UNPOPULAR speech. Even the
> Minority viewpoint, in a Republic, gets to enjoy the SAME FREEDOM
> that popular views do, to get spoken/written/published. Any attempt
> to infringe upon that right is the TRUE meaning of the term "un-
> American"--a term Senator McCarthy desecrated when he used it to
> refer to any viewpoint not held by ultra-Rightwingers like him and
> other John Birch Society types.
>
> In PLANET OF THE APES, the non-Republic government of the Ape society
> is ruled by a group of strict "conservatives" who wish to maintain
> a "status quo" (to paraphrase Zira's line in "BENEATH"); "I say that
> it's time for a change," she says, and Cornelius asks: "We
> Chimpanzees are too few [i.e. they are the MINORITY]; how can we show
> any initiative when THEY [the Gorillas & Orangutans] are in control?"
>
> When the artifacts in the Cave prove Cornelius' innocence, Zaius has
> the evidence destroyed--and he orders a gorilla soldier to "silence"
> Cornelius. The last moment we see Cornelius in "PLANET", he's being
> taken away FORCIBLY by a gorilla, doomed to face trial for Heresy--
> for a viewpoint which is not only "unpopular" but CRIMINAL. Had there
> not been any sequel, this would be the last we ever "heard" from
> Cornelius--his voice had been silenced.
>
> In Taylor's "Hearing"/Tribunal, he seeks to speak for himself, on his
> own behalf, and the one who's "in charge" (the President of the
> Assembly) gives an order to the "Bailiff: Gag the animal!" Taylor
> isn't allowed to speak in his own defense. His speech is muffled by a
> gag forced over his mouth by a gorilla bailiff.
>
> Landon once COULD speak... until Zaius' "fine veterinary surgeons"
> performed a prefrontal lobotomy on him, so that "the beast could not
> speak, of course--NOR WILL HE EVER SPEAK".
>
> In the totalitarian society depicted in "CONQUEST", an ape who CAN
> speak lives in fear of being KNOWN to be able to speak. The State
> uses an electroshock table to torture him into speaking against his
> will. "H-h-h-have... pity..." he gasps out. "Have him say something
> else!" says Breck, and Kolp orders Caesar to speak again, with the
> threat of torture to compel him. And Caesar's "foster-father",
> Armando, is subjected to the indignity of a device called
> an "Authenticator"--which "makes people tell the truth", Kolp says.
> Armando doesn't have a lawyer present to protest the violation of his
> 5th Amendment rights. He is FORCED by the State Security agents to
> submit to it. He is NOT in control of his speech; and "Free Speech"
> is what it's all about.
>
> Where does the "PLANET OF THE APES" saga stand in regards to matters
> of Freedom-of-Speech? Clearly, the saga is on the side of the
> oppressed minority, those who are marginalized by the Ruling Class.
>
> THAT is why the very notion of a POTA group having oppressive Rules
> which the Ruling Elite use to quell any dissenting voice... it's just
> plain wrong. The POTADG group HAS such Rules; it HAS such a "Ruling
> Class" using its power to censor speech it disagrees with, and to
> evict those who "abuse" the "privilege" of posting their unpopular
> views on that site.
>
> There's a difference between a "privilege" and a RIGHT. It's the same
> difference between a Democracy and a Republic. The POTADG is, at
> best, a "democracy"--though it is actually an Oligarchy, ruled by
> a "Few" top-dogs (James, etc.). But THIS site, the original Yahoo
> POTA group, is a true Republic. This message board welcomes ALL
> views, whether they're popular or not. Whether they represent
> a "majority" viewpoint or a minority one--or even a "lone-nut" wacko
> idiosyncratic point-of-view.
>
> That's why I "respectfully decline" Mike's offer to join the DG, and
> why I will always consider this POTA site to be the TRUE one, since
> it's truer to the ideals that the POTA saga promulgates.
>
> As Zira defiantly says, "I can SPEAK, so I SPOKE!"
>
> Patrick
>
> P.S. LordT, my "Mothership Theory"--you're free to think it's crap.
> But it's BRILLIANT, I say. Brilliant! Hah! So THERE!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Whitty

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 4:14 PM

Subject: [Planet of the Apes] You can speak, but nobody's listening!

Now that’s as honest as you can be Jeff, and I hope they are easy on you for admitting that you DO enjoy the POTADG.

 

And as for not being much fun anymore, well, you can always blame the infamous POTA Nazi for that, or the POTADG.  That’s what societies need scapegoats for.  Just don’t EVER blame yourselves!

 

The remaining members have the power and the resources to put this group back on track, but their egos are in the way.

 

Just like Fox have what it takes to genuinely and properly resurrect POTA.

 

But the majority of this group is a lot like Fox…there is no convincing you guys of why the tickets aren’t selling.  You just won’t listen because you are too smart and you know better.  And I know it isn’t about ticket sales, but the tickets didn’t sell for POTA2001 because Fox did not seek input from the ticket buyers…just like this group.  And you’re getting lots of comments, lots of pleas from people, but you know better.

 

The DG was not imposed on anyone.  If it were, then you could get away with the pathetic comparisons to the orangutan council and Nazi Germany where a dictatorship stated the rules and the community had no input.  But these comparisons are not fair, and I really think you guys don’t even believe them.  It is the Ursuses and the Urkos who are being moderated and/or thrown out of the POTADG.  The warmongers who DON’T want peace.  And they get fair warning.  There was one exception, Tom, and I believe that has been sorted out now (correct me if I’m wrong Tom, while you and I still don’t like what happened and think it was wrong, it is time to move forward).  But some people live for the fight.  “We’ve got guns.”  Well, North Korea has nukes baby, so what?

 

The real orangutans are in this group because you don’t listen to individuals and try to improve your society.  Instead you sit back and say you want things to go back to their romantically ideal situation while the foundations crumble around you and your population falls upon their swords.  But that’s OK because the tribunal know best.

 

And I do understand the difference between a democracy and a Republic.  And I probably sway more towards socialistic ideals that capitalist ideals (wow, I just lost a lot of votes there, but it is true), so “mob rules” is fine by me.  I usually prefer a unanimous vote and that the “mob” is closer to 90% though.  So you can stop being characteristically condescending now Patrick.  You’re no smarter than I and this group is no better than mine, nor is it ideologically more sound.  And your “right to pursue happiness” – what happens when that interferes with the rights of others?

 

Instead of seeing my rules as most normal people do – a necessity - you paint them as evil.  Instead of seeing my rules as similar to the Bill of Rights, you play your magic tricks of fitting square pegs into round holes and paint it as something evil.  What’s really evil is that you think your rights are so important that you don’t consider anyone else.  You may have the right to drive a bulldozer Patrick, but you extend that right to not caring whether you bulldoze over a crowd and that’s wrong.  My rules are to protect the crowd from a reckless bulldozer driver whose ego refuses to “play by the rules” and look in front to see if he is squashing anyone.

 

The POTADG is a public forum for ape fans.  It is not x rated, and kids read it, so there are rules.  How the hell does that compare with an evil dictatorship?  That’s just plain STUPID.  It’s not about political correctness, just plain manners.  Even Nazis have the right to free speech in the free world, but would you invite them to write a chapter of your novel Patrick?  And if they did, would you let it be published with out reading it first?  No.  And that’s not evil censorship, it’s you exercising your rights.

 

So I guess we have a conflict here.  Some people want to resolve it, others want to thrive on it.  Nothing’s changed.

 

Why don’t you guys surprise yourselves and get a topic going about Planet of the Apes?

 

Michael

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 2:36 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] "I can speak, so I spoke!"

 

I DO enjoy the DG and there's interesting stuff there. And the moderators do
work hard to keep it jumping. But I miss the mix of stuff we used to have
and I think we're poorer for it. Now this group is basically a shell. It's
just not as much fun anymore and that's too bad. - - - Jeff
.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

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----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 7:01 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] You can speak, but nobody's listening!

The real orangutans are in this group because you don't listen to individuals.

Look who the hell's talking.  Hey, is there anyway to ban Whitty from this group?  I'm getting pretty sick of his shit?  Turnabout is fair play.  Let's put it to a vote.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> Anyway, a topic...let's see. What's the worst decision Fox has

----- Original Message -----

From: Kassidy Rae

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 4:06 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Birth of a Notion

<What's the worst decision Fox has ever made regarding POTA?

 

++++I'm going with Tim Burton on this one, due to the fact that I just re-watched POTA 2001 again.  They had it, they really had it!... and it slipped away, it really slipped away.  Great music, I liked the space station, the pods, the make-up... until the female apes.  There's the cheese factor, totally misplaced, to me.  No rapport built between the audience and the leads - what is that?  

 

Sorry guys.  I won't go lamenting POTA 2001 again.  Same-o, same-o. 

 

<What's your worst POTA decision?

++++What's wrong with taking a girl to a POTA movie?  My girlfriends took ME out to see it (2001, for my birthday).  My girlfriends watched POTA with me, all the way from my best friend in elementary school through my friends in high-school (remember me telling you about us giggling at the loin-cloth scenes - no bare butts in the tv versions).

 

I don't have any worst POTA decisions, I don't think.  I've had so much enjoyment out of joining the groups and writing stories and even building that website (screengrabs took loads of time, grrr). 

 So there.

Kass

 

veetus@... wrote:

---

> All of us are free to like the potadg's rules or leave 'em, right? But

> On the other hand, no one seems to want to discuss "Apes" here. That's a =
> shame. I was pretty much the last holdout that I know of to try the DG when=
> it started. I didn't want anything to do with it. Then some of the so-call=
> ed "troublemakers" here got kicked out, so my attitude was, we're proving t=
> hem right. So I joined on principle to show that a "troublemaker" could pla=
> y by the rules. So far, no worries, mate. Personally, I think it's too bad =

> But there hasn't been flame wars and the like here si=
> nce the DG formed, except when there's bad blood between the DG founders an=
> d people who were kicked out.

> is being used to rub our noses in it for the success of the DG. I know the=
> re are those here who feel wronged by the DG process. Kass is right that gr=
> oups are not a democracy. But people still have a right to feel that they'v=
> e been unfairly censored or banned. And let's face it, moderators are human=

>
> Melkor has rejoined the POTADG.

>
> It seems to have become the POTADG Complaints Department, and that's not
> good.
>

>
> I don't think it is a success. What I want is to get a place we can ALL
> get together and show a bit of respect and compromise. I don't care
> what the address is, I don't care who the individuals are, but I would
> hope that people could LISTEN to others and RESPECT their views.

> From: veetus@... [veetus@...]
> Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 12:16 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] POTADG
>
> I admit, the DG is a success, and the founders have gone out of their
> way to make it so. It seems like most people are still members of both
> (or at least check in once in awhile, though it's not difficult to keep
> up with this group now), but no one really uses this group to talk
> anymore. I'm the same way. If I bring up a topic in here, chances are no
> one will respond. In the DG they will. So, those who are big on keeping
> this group alive, we're not doing our jobs and it's no wonder people are
> leaving. But I'll remain here, even if I'm the last man standing.
>

> As for Mr. Whitty's topic, "Ape Chronicles" was Terry Hoknes' idea in
> 1991, thanks to the Adventure comics. As Mr. Cougar said, we didn't
> start from ground zero. It wouldn't have existed without the comics,

> Anyway, a topic...let's see. What's the worst decision Fox has ever made =
> regarding POTA?

>Doing a sequel to the original?

> Hiring Tim Burton? Recuttin=
> g "Conquest"? What? And what aboutYOU? What's your worst POTA decision? Spe=
> nding too much on a collectible? Not spending enough when you could've had =
> something cool for a steal? Taking a girl to see POTA and she wound up hati=
> ng you for it? What?=20

>It's just like James Cagney said.
> "The bad guys I play, never see themselves as bad guys, and that's the way I
> play them."

>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, <veetus@e...> wrote:
>
> > Anyway, a topic...let's see. What's the worst decision Fox has
> ever made regarding POTA??
>
> It's not "the" worst decision they made, but one of their dumber
> moves was making BATTLE into a "kid's picture"...

>
> --part1_35.3ba9b3a4.2c60435e_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> In a message dated 8/4/03 7:06:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> melkor@... writes:
>
>
> > How is BATTLE a "kid's picture"? It doesn't have any giant spiders
> > or flying reptiles. BATTLE is my favorite movie, so maybe that's why I
> > don't see it's flaws. But I think the writing is just as sophisticated as
> > the other sequels, if not more so.
> >
> >
> >
>
> I think you might be the only one who does. Well.... maybe you and Eric
> Greene.
>
> -- Rory
>

> > Anyway, a topic...let's see. What's the worst decision Fox has

>
> Cutting the budgets of the sequels. Cancelling the TV series.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:

<<< How is BATTLE a "kid's picture"? It doesn't have any giant
spiders or flying reptiles. BATTLE is my favorite movie, so maybe
that's why I don't see it's flaws. But I think the writing is just
as sophisticated as the other sequels, if not more so. >>>

Well, okay... The actual plot/ideas contained within the movie itself
are good enough... BUT, the way the movie was downgraded sooo much
(and yes, budgetary constraints added a lot to this downgrading)is
what makes it a "kids picture"... Almost zero bloodshed in the battle
make it a "kid's picture" and characters like Virgil make it a "kid's
picture"... When I read the BATTLE novelization, I thought THAT is
what the movie should have been... Even the POWER book and record set
handled it better... The movie is too "light" and it should have been
pulled off better than it was... It's far from what it could have and
should have been...

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:39 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] You can speak, but nobody's listening!

In a message dated 8/4/2003 7:03:50 AM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

Now that this group is down to just me, T and Whitty (T for two), what say we mark this as a new beginning? There's no where to go but up. - - - Jeff

Sounds like a plan to me.
How about some topic ideas?
Like...What direction would you
like any future Apes films to take?
I for one would like them to either
have the sequel follow the book
more closely, or barring that,
abandon the re-imagining idea
completely and start over with
a proper remake.






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
>
> <<< How is BATTLE a "kid's picture"? It doesn't have any giant
> spiders or flying reptiles. BATTLE is my favorite movie, so maybe
> that's why I don't see it's flaws. But I think the writing is just
> as sophisticated as the other sequels, if not more so. >>>
>
> Well, okay... The actual plot/ideas contained within the movie itself
> are good enough... BUT, the way the movie was downgraded sooo much
> (and yes, budgetary constraints added a lot to this downgrading)is

> what makes it a "kids picture"... Almost zero bloodshed in the battle
> make it a "kid's picture"

> and characters like Virgil make it a "kid's
> picture"...

> When I read the BATTLE novelization, I thought THAT is
> what the movie should have been... Even the POWER book and record set
> handled it better... The movie is too "light" and it should have been
> pulled off better than it was... It's far from what it could have and
> should have been...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 3:07 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Ape merchandise


> > As for Mr. Whitty's topic, "Ape Chronicles" was Terry Hoknes' idea in
> > 1991, thanks to the Adventure comics. As Mr. Cougar said, we didn't
> > start from ground zero. It wouldn't have existed without the comics,
>
> I wonder how the Adventure comics got started?
>
> I don't like how POTA gets short changed. Every other franchise (Star
> Trek/Wars, Alien, Terminator etc) gets tons of books and comics and
graphic
> novels and Special Edition DVD's and POTA gets almost nothing.
>
> The only great things we really have are the Marvel mags and the Medicoms.
We
> don't even have full soundtracks for all the movies and if not for Japan
we
> wouldn't have decent toys either.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Birth of a Notion


> >
> > --part1_35.3ba9b3a4.2c60435e_boundary
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > In a message dated 8/4/03 7:06:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > melkor@... writes:
> >
> >
> > > How is BATTLE a "kid's picture"? It doesn't have any giant spiders
> > > or flying reptiles. BATTLE is my favorite movie, so maybe that's why
I
> > > don't see it's flaws. But I think the writing is just as
sophisticated as
> > > the other sequels, if not more so.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I think you might be the only one who does. Well.... maybe you and
Eric
> > Greene.
> >
> > -- Rory
> >
>
> Well I'm in good company then. But even Eric Greene doesn't understand
all
> of the writing. He gets the connection between Aldo and Original Sin but
> doesn't get the Caesar/Christ connection. Nor does understand why the
writers
> didn't give Aldo a background (which is because they thought he already
had a
> great background). But Greene's book points out a lot of stuff I hadn't
> thought about and if I didn't like his POTA book so much I wouldn't
> bother to nitpick it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> Welcome back, Tom. From what I understand, Adventure wanted some licensed
> comics and it's people were of an age to remember POTA and they just picked
> it up, as well as "Alien Nation", a Fox property current at the time. Back
> then POTA was nowhere, man. It's amazing how far it came in the following
> decade. Fox just didn't seem to have a clue how fondly remembered it was.
> There was already talk of a new movie before Adventure started, but it was
> the unknown Adam Rifkin at the time. Adventure had come and gone before big
> boys like Oliver Stone and James Cameron were announced.
> We do have complete scores for the sequels, but as usual it's from the

> side of the road. The best stuff just seems to come from people who care.
> Film Score Monthly released "Beneath" and "Conquest/Battle", and a
> bootlegger released the complete "Escape". - - - Jeff
>

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:48 PM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] soundtracks

In a message dated 8/4/2003 11:58:25 PM Central Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

It is the full ESCAPE soundtrack I don't have.  I wonder if there is some way
to make it available to all the fans.  I would be willing to put up all the
ESCAPE .mp3 files for download except I don't have them.

There isn't much to it.  It's a sixteen and a half minute suite stuffed into one track and tacked on at the end of the new PLANET soundtrack.  It doesn't even include the shopping theme.  I had to get that off a download.  I guess the figured there wasn't enough there for it's own CD

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

>
> What? Eric makes a big deal about the Caesar/Christ connection, at least
> in "Escape" and "Conquest". he calls Cornelius, Zira and Caesar the "ape
> holy family", the circus as the stable, etc. Caesar's "resurrection" on the
> shock table.

> Maybe he doesn't see a connection in "Battle". Is there > any? - - - Jeff

> The entire "Escape" music (including the shopping theme) is available on =
> a bootleg from a company called Pony Express. - - - Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: LordTZer0@...=20
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com=20
> Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] soundtracks
>
>
> In a message dated 8/4/2003 11:58:25 PM Central Standard Time, melkor@eur=
> opa.lonestar.org writes:
>
>
> It is the full ESCAPE soundtrack I don't have. I wonder if there is so=
> me way
> to make it available to all the fans. I would be willing to put up all=
> the
> ESCAPE .mp3 files for download except I don't have them.
>
>
> There isn't much to it. It's a sixteen and a half minute suite stuffed i=
> nto one track and tacked on at the end of the new PLANET soundtrack. It do=
> esn't even include the shopping theme. I had to get that off a download. =
> I guess the figured there wasn't enough there for it's own CD=20

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Birth of a Notion


> >
> > What? Eric makes a big deal about the Caesar/Christ connection, at
least
> > in "Escape" and "Conquest". he calls Cornelius, Zira and Caesar the "ape
> > holy family", the circus as the stable, etc. Caesar's "resurrection" on
the
> > shock table.
>
> I don't remember the "circus as the stable". I'll have to reread the
book.
>
> I think that all three of the latter movies have the Caesar/Christ
parallels
> ESCAPE is stuffed full of those references, and BATTLE's whole "theme"
> revolves around the parallel.
>
> > Maybe he doesn't see a connection in "Battle". Is there > any? - - -
Jeff
>
> The Lawgiver says that God sent the world a saviour of miraculous birth.
> Caesar's mission was the save the world from Aldo's Original Sin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] soundtracks


>
> Does that mean you can buy it on the internet?
>
> -Tom
>
>
> > The entire "Escape" music (including the shopping theme) is available
on =
> > a bootleg from a company called Pony Express. - - - Jeff
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----=20
> > From: LordTZer0@...=20
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com=20
> > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 11:48 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] soundtracks
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/4/2003 11:58:25 PM Central Standard Time,
melkor@eur=
> > opa.lonestar.org writes:
> >
> >
> > It is the full ESCAPE soundtrack I don't have. I wonder if there is
so=
> > me way
> > to make it available to all the fans. I would be willing to put up
all=
> > the
> > ESCAPE .mp3 files for download except I don't have them.
> >
> >
> > There isn't much to it. It's a sixteen and a half minute suite
stuffed i=
> > nto one track and tacked on at the end of the new PLANET soundtrack. It
do=
> > esn't even include the shopping theme. I had to get that off a
download. =
> > I guess the figured there wasn't enough there for it's own CD=20
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> There's a picture from "Escape" in Eric's book and the caption reads: "Oh,
> come let us adore him. In the ape nativity scene, the ape holy family
> welcomes the simian savior in a modern manger". And that's just for
> starters!

> The "sent the world a savior" line just refers to the previous flicks. Is

> there anything Christ-like specifically in "Battle"? Maybe Dehn wrote
> something but the rewriters took it out? - - - Jeff

> >
> > I think that all three of the latter movies have the Caesar/Christ
> parallels
> > ESCAPE is stuffed full of those references, and BATTLE's whole "theme"
> > revolves around the parallel.

> In a message dated 8/5/03 10:50:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> veetus@... writes:
>
>
> > The entire "Escape" music (including the shopping theme) is available on a
> > bootleg from a company called Pony Express. - - - Jeff
> >
> >
>
> I have it. Somebody tell me where to download (or upload?) it to and I'll do
> it!
>
> -- Rory

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> >
> > There's a picture from "Escape" in Eric's book and the caption
reads: "Oh, come let us adore him. In the ape nativity scene, the ape
holy family welcomes the simian savior in a modern manger". And
that's just for starters!
>
> It would be interesting to collect all the Caesar/Christ symbolic
references in a document.
>
>
> > The "sent the world a savior" line just refers to the previous
flicks. Is
>
> I disagree. The Lawgiver did not say God sent the "apes" a saviour
(i.e. what happened in CONQUEST). He said that God sent the "world" a
saviour. It is only in BATTLE where Caesar intentionally makes it his
mission to save the world, and not in ESCAPE nor CONQUEST. The
Lawgiver's line is supposed to be the theme of the movie.
>
>
> > there anything Christ-like specifically in "Battle"? Maybe Dehn
wrote something but the rewriters took it out? - - - Jeff
>
> The reverse happened. Dehn took something out in a last minute
rewrite (of the Corrington's story) that makes the story more clear.
When Caesar learns in the tape of Cornelius about the Earth's
destruction in BENEATH, he makes it his mission to change the future
and save the Earth.
>
> There is supposed to be some dialog where Caesar wonders how to
save the Earth, hears Aldo's name mentioned on the tape, and then
realizes that Aldo's actions (who we know wants to kill all the
humans) led to the chain of events where the Earth is destroyed in
the timeline of Cornelius and Zira. i.e. Aldo is the Original Sinner
of the story.
>
> It's easier to think of it this way:
>
> Caesar Aldo
> Christ Adam
>
> But maybe you're just wanting some more symbolism like ESCAPE has.
Patrick can write you a story about why BATTLE has a character
called "Virgil".
>
> -Tom
>
>
> > >
> > > I think that all three of the latter movies have the
Caesar/Christ parallels ESCAPE is stuffed full of those references,
and BATTLE's whole "theme" revolves around the parallel.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Farrell" <apefan3955@m...> wrote:
> U people are a bunch of whinny crybabies. I was a member of potadg.
I left due to Mr Whity's bullying. But I never went off and
complained about them like U brats. U all seem to think the world
revolves around you. U all like to to complain. But don¡Çt do
anything positive. It's always easier to tear down than to build
something.
>
> Mr Whity stop trying to everyone to bully people that dare disagree
with you.
>
> LordTzero grow up. U're posts are offensive not funny.
>
> PatrickMichaelTilton the length of U're posts. U're pretentious
use of 3 names shows that you have an overblown opinion of U'reself.
Get over U'reself.
>
> Jeff U seem like the only grownup here. None of this was meant for
you.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Whitty
> The remaining members have the power and the resources to put

> And you're getting lots of comments, lots of pleas from people, but

> The DG was not imposed on anyone. If it were, then you could get

>
> And I do understand the difference between a democracy and a

>
> Instead of seeing my rules as most normal people do - a

>What's really evil is that you think your rights are so important

>
> The POTADG is a public forum for ape fans. It is not x rated, and

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Last point..why is Matt's Film Emporium Group any different to the
> POTADG? They have rules.
>
> Michael

>
> You tell 'em Pat! But remember, brevity is the soul of wit. And

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 3:32 PM
Subject: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar as Christ


> Patrick can, indeed, "write you a story about why BATTLE has a
> character called VIRGIL" in it!
>
> Around 2000 years ago, the Roman poet Publius Vergilius Maro (whom
> scholars usually refer to as 'Virgil') wrote 3 major works, one of
> which (the ECLOGUES) has a passage which later Christian interpreters
> took as a "pagan prophecy" of the First Advent of Christ. The passage
> reads:
>
> "Now is come the last age of the Cumaean prophecy: the great cycle of
> periods is born anew. Now returns the Maid [Latin: "Virgo"], returns
> the reign of Saturn: now from high heaven a new generation comes
> down. Yet do thou at that boy's birth, in whom the iron race shall
> begin to cease, and the golden to arise over all the world, holy
> Lucina, be gracious; now thine own Apollo [Caesar Augustus] reigns.
> And in thy consulate, in thine, O Pollio, shall this glorious age
> enter, and the great months begin their march: under thy rule what
> traces of our guilt yet remain, vanishing shall free earth for ever
> from alarm. He shall grow in the life of gods, and shall see gods and
> heroes mingled, and himself be seen by them, and shall rule the world
> that his fathers' virtues have set at peace. But on thee, O boy,
> untilled shall Earth first pour childish gifts, wandering ivy-
> tendrils and foxglove, and colocasia mingled with the laughing
> acanthus: untended shall the she-goats bring home their milk-swoln
> udders, nor shall huge lions alarm the herds: unbidden thy cradle
> shall break into wooing blossom. The snake too shall die, and die the
> treacherous poison-plant: Assyrian spice shall grow all up and down...
> ... Draw nigh to thy high honours (even now will the time be come) O
> dear offspring of gods, mighty germ of Jove! Behold the world swaying
> her orbed mass, lands and spaces of sea and depth of sky; behold how
> all things rejoice in the age to come..."
>
> [from J.W. Mackail's translation of the 4th Eclogue in "VIRGIL'S
> WORKS"]
>
> Some 1300 years later, the Italian poet Dante Alighieri wrote his
> masterpiece, "La Divina Commedia", which SF author Larry Niven refers
> to (somewhat with tongue-in-cheek) as the 1st SF novel--it's a
> trilogy, after all: the "INFERNO", "PURGATORIO", and "PARADISO".
>
> In the beginning of the "INFERNO", Dante (a character in this
> autobiographical narrative epic) encounters the ghost of the long-
> dead poet Virgil in an allegorical "dark forest" where 3 animals
> (representative of 3 types of Sin, according to most interpreters)
> have hampered his ability to find "the right path" ["la diritta
> via"]. The ghost of Virgil--whose epic, "THE AENEID" includes a
> famous account of the Trojan hero Aeneas' journey to Hades and back--
> himself leads Dante on his journey through a medieval Christian HELL
> and up to the top of Mt. Purgatory, where the Garden of Eden is
> situated, antipodal to Jerusalem (where Christ atoned for the Sin
> that began in Eden). Virgil leaves Dante just at the "border" of the
> Garden, and a Christ-figure (the soul of the blessed Beatrice) then
> takes over the task of leading Dante's soul to Perfection (through
> the celestial spheres of Heaven).
>
> It is no coincidence that in "BATTLE" Caesar and Brother MacDonald
> are accompanied by a person named after Dante's ghostly guide,
> Virgil. When they approach the Forbidden City (the nuked-out ruins of
> the city ruled by Governor Breck in "CONQUEST"), MacDonald says of
> the ruin: "This is the Hell that my forefathers spoke of."
>
> The script goes out of its way to equate the remnants of a city
> destroyed by nuclear warfare with a theological notion: a "place"
> (or "condition") which has been forsaken by God and is reserved as a
> place of punishment for those who Sin. Yet, as Aeneas and Dante both
> did in those two masterpieces of literature, Caesar MUST travel to
> his own world's "hell" in order to accomplish something that cannot
> be accomplished any other way. He must acquire Knowledge which will
> bring Salvation to his own people. Only by "descending" to the very
> bottom of all Existence can one "look into the Abyss" (from a
> Nietzchean perspective) and see the Truth, one might say. Dante's
> journey ultimately takes him to a face-to-face meeting (in Heaven)
> with an illustrious ancestor of his named Cacciaguida. Aeneas'
> journey takes him to the fields of Elysium to visit with the spirit
> of his father, Anchises, who clarifies his fated role of
> transplanting the Trojan people to Latium and founding a dynasty
> which will culminate in the glorious Augustus, who ruled over
> the "golden age" of the Roman Empire.
>
> Caesar, too, must "descend into Hell" in order to acquire Knowledge
> from his deceased father, Cornelius, and mother Zira. Knowledge that
> concerns the ultimate fate of HIS own people: the Apes. Yet... like
> all conflicts, the fate of the Apes is irrevocably linked with that
> of Humans. The conflict, Caesar is made aware, will result in the End
> of the World. "It wasn't OUR war... it was the GORILLAS' war!" he
> hears his mother's voice say. Caesar couldn't help but think of Aldo
> and his warlike, anti-human proclivity. Caesar wants to CHANGE that
> Future; he says "I know what *I* want to change."
>
> At the end of the film, he asks MacDonald, "Tell me, MacDonald, CAN
> you make the future what we wish?" and MacD answers, "I've heard it's
> possible, Caesar..."
>
> And, around 600 years after Caesar's death, a relatively peaceful
> society of Apes and Humans, hearing the myth-overladen version of the
> story from a 'Lawgiver', includes one human child who rather
> cynically asks, "Lawgiver, who KNOWS about the Future?" This
> scripture-reciting old orangutan, rather than confidently replying
> that THEY know the Future to have been Changed and "saved" by
> Caesar's actions, tells her: "Perhaps... only the Dead."
>
> And then a chimp yanks on the girl's pony-tail... and she pushes him
> back... they're fighting. And a nearby statue of Caesar symbolically
> sheds a tear.
>
> And, somewhere, a descendant of Mendez (and Alma, probably) is
> leading a community of mutating survivors in a 'Mass of the Bomb',
> literally worshipping as their God a device which has the ability--
> once triggered--of destroying the entire planet.
>
> Later, in 3955, when their Traumatic Hypnosis illusions fail to scare
> off Ursus' gorilla army, Mendez XXVI vows to do "whatever's
> necessary"... to do what? He goes to the Cathedral and awaits Ursus'
> army; when they arrive, he informs them that the Bomb is "the
> instrument of my God"... and if Ursus hadn't had him shot by a burst
> of automatic gunfire, he probably would've kept pressing those
> crystal triggering switches on the dais. The missile had already been
> targeted at Ape City--Caspay had asked another mutant if he knew
> the "range" of the apes' city, and told him to "set it in the
> mechanism and wait for me"... to give the order to launch it. As
> Brent says, "They intend to use it."
>
> This "gorillas' war" (as Zira called it), in a way, forces the hand
> of the retaliatory-minded mutant leadership.
>
> Rory (and others) insist that Caesar CHANGED all that. Apes and
> Humans somehow learned to live together in peace... well, at least
> for 7 centuries or so. But conflict was not eradicated. Not even the
> peacenik Lawgiver in 2670 A.D. was confident about this: he admits
> that "perhaps ONLY the Dead" truly know the Future. HE doesn't know
> it. Like Caesar, they can only "wait and hope for the future"...
>
> And refrain from instigating race wars!
>
> Yes, Apes and Humans live in relative peace in 2670... but that Ape-
> and-Human society does NOT live "in peace with" the subterranean
> Mutant society. They don't live "with" them at all. They stay
> divided. As Virgil says, "The greatest danger of all is that Danger
> is NEVER over."
>
> Unlike a "feel-good" movie might've done, "BATTLE" admits the
> unfortunate reality: that Conflict will NEVER be rooted out of Human
> nature. The "apes" and "mutants" are just fictional metaphors for
> other types of Human beings. We can HOPE that the Future can be
> fashioned into a Utopia by effective present-day action. Sure. But
> we're only fooling ourselves if we believe that we've ever truly
> solved the problem. It requires, as Jefferson once said of
> maintaining Freedom, ETERNAL VIGILANCE.
>
> A religious epic like Dante's "COMMEDIA" would suggest that God
> already has everything in control, and that Salvation ultimately is
> on a case-by-case basis, where each individual acquires entry into
> Heaven by surrendering to God's will and having purged out of them
> all traces of Sin... and, tragically, there will be those--the "many"-
> -who are condemned to Perdition. The ones who "make it" into Heaven
> will constitute an undying Society which has a perfect government
> (ruled by God) with perfect law-abiding citizens.
>
> Yet, with all the religious pretensions that are heaped on the memory
> of the long-dead Caesar, the ultimate Destiny of the Apes and Humans
> and Mutants on Earth will be decided by those who live in that
> critical time... who live segregated lives. Not in peace, which
> implies a co-existence SHARED, with interaction between the groups.
> No... the Mutants live "next-door" to the Apes, but the two groups
> have no contact with each other. A religious taboo keeps Apes out of
> that "forbidden" zone. And those who make incursions (like Ursus'
> scouts) are treated with contempt ("... disgusting creatures..."
> they're called). Ursus refers to the insane 12th scout as having had
> his mind "shattered... no doubt by some UNSIMIAN torture".
> Read "inhuman", if you will. Ursus can't countenance the idea that an
> Ape would ever do such a thing to another Ape. It MUST be a creature
> of another Race/Species/"kind".
>
> There's no evidence that Caesar--or any later Ape king--extends any
> olive branches to the neighbouring Mutant community. This ever-
> present danger lurks "under the surface"--LITERALLY.
>
> This strand is called "Caesar as Christ" and, yes, Caesar is a Christ-
> figure in a way. He's also a Moses-figure (as was Christ), who led
> his People out of Slavery (Breck being the Pharaoh). Yet Caesar is
> also someone who barely escaped being killed in an electricutional
> crucifixion (Eric Greene aptly elucidates the parallels). Just like
> the allegations made in numerous works regarding Christ--that he
> didn't truly, literally "die" and be "resurrected" from Death--Caesar
> PRETENDS to die by electrocution... and later, when Breck
> exclaims, "But I saw you DIE!", Caesar replies: "The King is dead...
> LONG LIVE THE KING! Tell me, Breck, before YOU die..."
>
> This leads me to ask a question: Does Caesar ever publicly admit to
> ANYBODY (the Apes he later rules, for instance) that he had FAKED his
> death and resurrection? Think about it: Lisa knows the word "No", as
> do the other ex-slave Apes. In time, these freed Apes will be FLUENT
> IN ENGLISH. Those who were present when Breck said that he SAW Caesar
> die might wonder... Did Caesar die? If so, mustn't he have then been
> brought back to life? By God, no less?
>
> Does Caesar ever disabuse them of this idea? Might that not have been
> a USEFUL notion to take advantage of? If the Apes believe that he
> really DID die and get resurrected, it would give him a cache
> of "divinity"--a perceived "right" to be their King, to rule over
> them. To exert his will over them, by making the laws that they would
> live by. As Virgil tells Aldo, "Aldo, if a King forbids his subjects
> to wear a crown, that doesn't mean he can't wear one himself. Caesar
> is Caesar. He went to the City for a purpose."
>
> Caesar's treehouse "Ape City" isn't a Republic, or a Democracy. It's
> a Monarchy. An Autocracy. A totalitarian dictatorship... with
> a "benevolent dictator" in charge. He wields the same sort of power
> over Apes and Humans that Kolp wields over the radiated survivors of
> the City. ALL power.
>
> Caesar has experienced a symbolic Death-and-Resurrection. And Apes
> hear Breck say that he SAW him die... and, centuries later, an Ape
> religious figure recites a scriptural version of history which
> declares Caesar to have been SENT BY GOD to save the world. He
> was "miraculously born" says the Lawgiver. Doesn't this suggest that
> Caesar allowed the gullible masses to BELIEVE in a literal Death and
> Resurrection, rather than a PRETENDED one?
>
> For similar controversy regarding Jesus' "death" and "resurrection" I
> recommend you all read books like "THE PASSOVER PLOT", "HOLY BLOOD,
> HOLY GRAIL", "JESUS THE MAN" and others which dare to question the
> dogmatic beliefs of Christendom.
>
> Patrick
>
> P.S. Despite its "kid-fare" watering-down, its slashed-to-the-bone
> budget woes, etc., "BATTLE" has much much more to it than a cursory
> glance can glean. Its flaws aside, I find that it has grown on me
> over the years, and I dig it just as much as I do all the other
> sequels to the 1st and best of the bunch. Paul Dehn was a poet
> himself, just like Virgil and Dante, and he concocted an Epic of his
> own when he wrote the basic stories for "BENEATH"-thru-"BATTLE". We
> can argue all we want over whether it's "open-ended" or an infinite,
> vicious circle of Conflict... but recall, if you will, that quote
> from the Roman poet Virgil's 4th Eclogue: "...the great CYCLE of
> periods is born anew..."
> Dehn thought of it as a Circle. I'm pessimistic (realistic?) enough
> to agree with him!
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Melkor <melkor@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > There's a picture from "Escape" in Eric's book and the caption
> reads: "Oh, come let us adore him. In the ape nativity scene, the ape
> holy family welcomes the simian savior in a modern manger". And
> that's just for starters!
> >
> > It would be interesting to collect all the Caesar/Christ symbolic
> references in a document.
> >
> >
> > > The "sent the world a savior" line just refers to the previous
> flicks. Is
> >
> > I disagree. The Lawgiver did not say God sent the "apes" a saviour
> (i.e. what happened in CONQUEST). He said that God sent the "world" a
> saviour. It is only in BATTLE where Caesar intentionally makes it his
> mission to save the world, and not in ESCAPE nor CONQUEST. The
> Lawgiver's line is supposed to be the theme of the movie.
> >
> >
> > > there anything Christ-like specifically in "Battle"? Maybe Dehn
> wrote something but the rewriters took it out? - - - Jeff
> >
> > The reverse happened. Dehn took something out in a last minute
> rewrite (of the Corrington's story) that makes the story more clear.
> When Caesar learns in the tape of Cornelius about the Earth's
> destruction in BENEATH, he makes it his mission to change the future
> and save the Earth.
> >
> > There is supposed to be some dialog where Caesar wonders how to
> save the Earth, hears Aldo's name mentioned on the tape, and then
> realizes that Aldo's actions (who we know wants to kill all the
> humans) led to the chain of events where the Earth is destroyed in
> the timeline of Cornelius and Zira. i.e. Aldo is the Original Sinner
> of the story.
> >
> > It's easier to think of it this way:
> >
> > Caesar Aldo
> > Christ Adam
> >
> > But maybe you're just wanting some more symbolism like ESCAPE has.
> Patrick can write you a story about why BATTLE has a character
> called "Virgil".
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > I think that all three of the latter movies have the
> Caesar/Christ parallels ESCAPE is stuffed full of those references,
> and BATTLE's whole "theme" revolves around the parallel.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
> In a message dated 8/4/2003 11:58:25 PM Central Standard Time,
> melkor@... writes:
>
> > This is probably blasphemous to Rory but the PLANET soundtrack is actually
> > my
> > least favorite to listen to. I like the main title theme to ESCAPE the best
> > (also by Goldsmith), followed by BATTLE, then CONQUEST.
>
> I like ESCAPE too. And I love the Ape Management reconditioning tune as well
> as the 90s Restaurant theme. But I think that the Beneath soundtrack it the
> most underrated. I think he did a good job considering that he had to build
> on the groundwork that Goldsmith laid.
>

> In a message dated 8/5/03 2:39:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> melkor@... writes:
>
> > The Lawgiver did not say God sent the "apes" a saviour (i.e.
> > what happened in CONQUEST). He said that God sent the "world" a saviour.
> > It is only in BATTLE where Caesar intentionally makes it his mission
> > to save the world, and not in ESCAPE nor CONQUEST. The Lawgiver's line
> > is supposed to be the theme of the movie.
> >
>
> And that's why the APES series is NOT a cycle, it's open ended. The future
> after BATTLE will be different from the planet of the apes that Taylor landed
> on. Why can't some APES fans get that?
>
> -- Rory

> Yet, with all the religious pretensions that are heaped on the memory
> of the long-dead Caesar, the ultimate Destiny of the Apes and Humans
> and Mutants on Earth will be decided by those who live in that
> critical time... who live segregated lives. Not in peace, which
> implies a co-existence SHARED, with interaction between the groups.
> No... the Mutants live "next-door" to the Apes, but the two groups
> have no contact with each other. A religious taboo keeps Apes out of

>
> > then the tear on the Caesarstatue in BATTLE must have been a mutant
> > illusion just like the tear on theLawgive statue in BENEATH was. This implies that
> > the mutant culture was awareof and also affected by Caesar's creation of a
> > tolerant liberal culture in the
> > BATTLE timeline.
>
> No it mustn't. There is no evidence that the mutants had achieved any
> illusory powers at that time. So you're just speculating.

> And no one but the
> audience even saw the tear. So if in fact they could create an illusion, who are
> they using their powers on?

>
> > It is by far the simplest and most logical explanation
>
> Yeah...if you're on CRACK!
> Where were these mutants? Hiding in the bushes?

> The simplest explanation is that it was sitting on top of
> a natural spring and that water was welling up through
> the porous stone, and that it had no significance to the
> film whatsoever.

> But if you can't admit that you're
> grasping at straws then you're past arguing about it.
> "Yes! Here's the only explanation! The writer meant
> something that no one would possibly get unless they
> were tripping out of their mind! Yeah, that's it! I don't
> know why I didn't see it before I took all that mescaline.
> It's soooo simple." Get real! Now if you'll excuse me
> I think I hear the mothership landing.
>
> "That's lunacy! I could offer alternate descriptions of
> every one of those articles which is just as ingenious
> as yours. But it'd be conjecture, not proof."

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar as Christ


> > Yet, with all the religious pretensions that are heaped on the memory
> > of the long-dead Caesar, the ultimate Destiny of the Apes and Humans
> > and Mutants on Earth will be decided by those who live in that
> > critical time... who live segregated lives. Not in peace, which
> > implies a co-existence SHARED, with interaction between the groups.
> > No... the Mutants live "next-door" to the Apes, but the two groups
> > have no contact with each other. A religious taboo keeps Apes out of
>
> There is in fact some evidence that the mutants in 2670 AD of the BATTLE
> timeline are aware of the peaceful human/ape coexistence and appreciate
Caesar.
> Some dismiss the tear from the Caesar statue as symbolic but in fact it's
part
> of the canon of the POTA movie universe so it's fair to ask what caused
it.
> Unless the statue's tear was caused by God (I've speculated before that
the
> POTA movie universe has an unseen "God" character) then the tear on the
Caesar
> statue in BATTLE must have been a mutant illusion just like the tear on
the
> Lawgive statue in BENEATH was. This implies that the mutant culture was
aware
> of and also affected by Caesar's creation of a tolerant liberal culture in
the
> BATTLE timeline.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar as Christ


> >
> > > then the tear on the Caesarstatue in BATTLE must have been a mutant
> > > illusion just like the tear on theLawgive statue in BENEATH was. This
implies that
> > > the mutant culture was awareof and also affected by Caesar's creation
of a
> > > tolerant liberal culture in the
> > > BATTLE timeline.
> >
> > No it mustn't. There is no evidence that the mutants had achieved any
> > illusory powers at that time. So you're just speculating.
>
> It is by far the simplest and most logical explanation because we saw the
> mutants do the exact same thing in BENEATH. The only other possibility
(as I
> said before) is a supernatural source.
>
> Of course someone can always make up some other cause -- but trying to
justify
> it would be as hard as trying to justify Mothership Earth.
>
>
> > And no one but the
> > audience even saw the tear. So if in fact they could create an
illusion, who are
> > they using their powers on?
>
> We don't know who did or did not see the tear. Maybe one mutant did it
> to make a statement to other mutants who were watching. Or maybe they
were
> just messing around testing out their powers of holographic projection.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> thank U Mr Mekor for talking about apes again. the ceaser as christ thing i=

> s very interesting. I never heard it before. I didn't read Eric's book. but=
> christ spoke of love and peace.

> ceaser was a violent revolutionary. Im not=
> sure it fits.
> just one more question. what was aldo's original sin?

> I think the mutant culture in "Battle" was a little too early for mind
> projection, but it's an interesting connection between the tear on the
> Lawgiver ("Beneath") and the Caesar ("Battle"). - - - Jeff
>
>

> I don't think the tear should be taken literally. It could just be dew but
> suggests to us something more. - - - Jeff
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Melkor" <melkor@...>
To: <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar as Christ


>
> Of course the tear was supposed to be symbolic but so was a bunch of other
> things in those movies. Since the tear's existence is real I think it's
> legitimate to wonder what caused it and to remember that BENEATH also had
a
> tear on a statue.
>
> It could just be dew, except then it would be meaningless.
>
> But to be honest the tear doesn't mean much to me except as a small
> suggestion that the mutant culture has also been affected by Caesar.
>
> In BENEATH we saw that while the apes did not know about the mutants the
> reverse was not true.
>
> -Tom
>
>
> > I don't think the tear should be taken literally. It could just be dew
but
> > suggests to us something more. - - - Jeff
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 1:38 AM

Subject: Re: [Planet of the Apes] Re: Caesar as Christ

In a message dated 8/6/2003 4:30:06 PM Central Standard Time, melkor@... writes:

If it has no significance to the film whatsoever why does the camera
focus on it in the film?

I'm just saying it's a simpler explaination than mutants did it.
Why would the mutants do it by the way?
It doesn't scare any one off Because they'd be wondering
if they were happy tears just like we are.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the .

> In a message dated 8/7/03 2:32:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> melkor@... writes:
>
>
> > Since the tear's existence is real I think it's
> > legitimate to wonder what caused it and to remember that BENEATH also had a
> > tear on a statue.
> >
> BENEATH did NOT have a tear on the statue. It was blood!

> As I said before, the tear was a drop of rain that just happened to fall on
> that spot, and if the film had continued it would have poured. You'll remember
> that that scene takes place on a gray day.

> You can suppose that God made the
> rain drop fall where it did, or that it was just coincidence.

> Let's keepsome things in POTA "mutant free zones."

>
> -- Rory
>

>
> Ah-nuld Schwartzenegger has announced he's running for governor of Califo=
> rnia. He led the new POTA for 3 administrations (the Oliver Stone, Chris Co=
> lumbus and James Cameron eras). Don't forget (how could you?) that Heston w=
> as in politics, too. Mark Wahlberg for president! - - - Jeff