Scavaging and probably living off emergency (fallout shelter) rations and
using the backup/emergency generators for their electricity...


In a message dated 6/14/2011 9:04:26 AM Central Daylight Time,
davesbatene@... writes:

> Where did they get fuel for their school bus and cars, electricity and
> running water?!
>

</HTML>

You can find the series box set pretty cheap on eBay...



In a message dated 6/14/2011 1:52:02 PM Central Daylight Time,
davesbatene@... writes:

> Where could I view the 13 TV episodes of POTA online? I can't find it on
> Youtube

</HTML>

.html

 

Don't forget Zelda.  There's a picture of and actress

made up as a gorilla in the photos section.  But

someone said she was replaced by a chimp in

the scene.  There's been some debate as to

whether the orang in the library was female

or not. Someone said that the character

was written as male. And as such,

even if played by a female should

be considered a male orangutan.

I don't know about that though.

 

 

In a message dated 6/14/2011 8:02:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, davesbatene@... writes:

Seems to me though that the female apes were pretty much in hiding except for Zira and Lisa. No female orangutans or gorillas.

<.html

I like the storyline of RETURN, but the way it was done could have been a
lot better... I would have preferred if they just picked up where the TV
series left off, kind of like they did with STAR TREK's animated series...




In a message dated 6/14/2011 4:19:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
ben.jarrell@... writes:

> The animated series is available on <A HREF="http://hulu.com/">Hulu.com
> </A>. I love POTA but even I found it tedious.

</HTML>

.html

Reminder from:		pota Yahoo! Group
Title:		Battle premiered this day in 1973
Date:		Wednesday June 15, 2011
Time:		All Day
Repeats:		This event repeats every year.
Get reminders on your mobile, Yahoo! Messenger, and email. Edit reminder options

Copyright © 2011  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | <.html

All five of the originals took place/take place on Earth (as will the film
RISE)... As to why Zira didn't give up the primitive baby, it was another
way to protect her real baby... If she is caught with a baby, they'd probably
figure it was hers and destroy it... They wouldn't go on searching for a
different one thus giving baby Milo a little more of a chance...




In a message dated 6/14/2011 6:07:57 AM Central Daylight Time,
davesbatene@... writes:

> But both Escape/Conquest AND Rise take place on Earth ....why didn't Zira
> surrender the baby when it wasn't even her real baby?
> Dave S

</HTML>

Who will be carrying the CONSPIRACY book? In other words, will it be
available at major retailers like Barnes and Noble or will it only be available
thru comic shops/specialty stores?</HTML>

LordTZer0: "Don't forget Zelda. There's a picture of and actress made up as a gorilla in the photos section. But someone said she was replaced by a chimp in the scene. There's been some debate as to whether the orang in the library was female or not. Someone said that the character was written as male. And as such, even if played by a female should be considered a male orangutan. I don't know about that though."

In an alternate universe, Zelda was scripted to be General Ursus' adoring wife in "Beneath The Planet of the Apes" and was portrayed by actress Agnes Moorehead (better known as Samantha's mother, Endora, of the TV series "Bewitched").

How did she land the role?

Well, it certainly didn't hurt that Moorehead had already acted many a time with Maurice Evans (Dr. Zaius) who portrayed Samantha's father (also named Maurice) on "Bewitched". And screenwriter Rod Serling would most definitely have given her a thumbs-up for her work on "The Twilight Zone".

But it was none other than legendary actor/director/screenwriter Orson Wells himself who campaigned for Moorehead to get the role. For you see, Agnes Moorehead was one of his original Mercury Theater Radio & Film Players. (She played Charles Foster Kaine's mother in "Citizen Kaine" and earned major acting kudos in his "Magnificent Ambersons" movie.)

And since he'd already succeeded in getting his own role of General Ursus considerably beefed up and fleshed out, who better than Agnes Moorehead could Orson Wells have recommended to play his/Ursus' gorilla wife who not only ceremoniously give him a grand send-off from their home but also rallies the gorilla and orangutang communities to turn out to cheer on the troops as they march from Ape City?


In the vein of "A Night on the Plantation" from the alternate-history anthology "By Any Other Fame", I'm writing a alternate-history short story about the making of "Beneath the Planet of the Apes" that both realistically and satirically explores the question of: "What if Orson Wells hadn't turned down the role of General Ursus in 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes'? Would it have been an even better movie if, in exchange for his agreeing to play General Ursus, the studio had indulged Wells, allowing the legendary director/actor/screenwriter Orson Wells to lend a scriptwriting hand to beefing up his own role and have some creative input into the picture?


Note: Mine is a speculative "What if..." story and has no basis in reality other than that Wells was considered for the role of Ursus but apparently turned it down.

Science-fiction author Brian M. Thomsen's "A Night on the Plantation" short story for the "By Any Other Fame" alternate-history anthology, hwoever, was based on an actual incident and addressed the following scenario: Instead of script approval, MGM executive producer David O. Selznick lets author Margaret Mitchell pick the lead actor to play Rhett Butler for GONE WITH THE WIND. However, when she doesn't like the studio's suggestion of Clark Gable to play Butler and gets into an argument with the studio heads, Margaret Mitchell uses her power perk to pick another actor altogether to play Rhettt Butler -- Groucho Marx!

The real incident that inspired that alternate-history short story occurred before casting for "Gone With The Wind" had actually gotten underway when author Mitchell was asked during an interview who she felt should play Rhett Butler. Margaret Mitchell replied, "Groucho Marx." She apparently replied that way merely as the whimsiest of gests and it's believed that that was just her own unique way of indirectly reiterating that she wanted nothing whatsoever to do with the making of the GONE WITH THE WIND film.


So, if any of you have links to notes, scene-production records, dailies-shot listings, etc. from the making of "Beneath The Planet of the Apes", I'd appreciate your sharing them with me.

Dave: "How did so many apes acquire language in just a mere eight or ten years in Battle?"

What I believe we saw in "Battle" in terms of the Caesar saga is a uneven blend of fact, legend and myth, all blended into one. For you see, the movie starts out with the Lawgiver reading about Caesar's exploits and then segue-ways from 2670 A.D. to around 2000 A.D. when you see the Lawgiver close his eyes (and then the frame freezes to emphasizes that he's trying to imagine in his own mind the story of Caesar in those far-off days of yore.

Like humans, apes would more likely have predisposed to embellishing their orally-transmitted tales and exploits, and after the nuclear holocaust, who can say how long it was until records were written down, recopied, preserved/saved, and copied again for posterity.


Dave: "And why did the creators of Rise have to develop a story different from Conquest?"

Because they're apparently intent on fully re-imagining the saga and eventually realizing the nihilist future of the very first "Planet of the Apes" movie. As to whether they plan to eventually blow up the Planet of the Apes a la "Beneath", who can say?

What I liked is that it's a film with depth that actually lingers in the memory.Wyatt is heading for great things, starting with Rise.John, Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> They said the director got "Rise" because of similarities to "The Escapist" (including a theme of redemption). And a nice reversal; this time Brian Cox is the jailer.
>
>

Well, I won't sell the wife to buy it then.Abbott is ,possibly, one of the forgotten guys of Hollywood.I think he was pretty hands on for the fisrst two Apes, but I could be wrong.Thanks for the info.John, Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Mike R <mego73@...> wrote:
>
> I have checked that book out of the library a couple times and it is a fantastic book. But the book details the movies he had more intimate involvement with and that didn't include Apes.
>
> Since Abbott was the head of Fox's effects department, his name would be on a lot of Fox movies he had little involvement with.
>

That's certainly a deep review--thanks for the pointer.In my opinion, it is merited, because this book is really hitting its straps now.It's a powerful story told in a powerful way and the sense of impending disaster is all the more pervading because they're taking their time to build the tension.Whether you like comics or not, this is a new, valid, engrossing Apes tale and it's well worth jumping in.John,Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> This reviewer evokes World War I and the Iraq War in analyzing POTA # 2. Eric Greene on Line 2. But I like this kind of talk. POTA is supposed to reverberate.
>
> http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/143718-casus-belli-booms-planet-of-the-apes-prepares-for-war/
>

.html<.html

Does anyone know of scientific attempts to solve scifi paradoxes about time travel and space travel? It just occurred to me that for example in Land of the Giants the Little People could have been destroyed in one light snowfall or rain. But of course they always had great weather. And of course unlike Cornelius and Zira it would have been impossible for such giants to travel to our little Earth for obvious reasons.
And why is it that usual cases of alien visitors on Earth rarely depict normal Earth-like humans except on Star Trek? !
Dave S.

.html<.html

I've always assumed that there was some DNA manipulation going on which made the Apes physically less threatening and more intelligent at the same time.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> We have to assume the apes were on their way in "Conquest". After all, Lisa speaks at the end (though it wasn't the original ending, "Battle" was based off the revised ending). I would have to assume they were the result of genetic breeding to make them better slaves, though the humans didn't plan on them getting smart and talking (they just had plenty of warning in "Escape"). Or Caesar's "presence" caused it to happen, a theory I've heard. Maybe whatever caused the apes to evolve in the first place (a virus?) was brought back.
> In any case, the apes were changing between "Escape" and "Conquest" and then the length of time to "Battle" completed them. Apes to "Battle": "You... complete me!"
>
>

The TV series is not available to be viewed online. You can get the DVDs at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000GUJZ0K?tag=plaoftheapeme-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B000GUJZ0K&adid=14T8XG2YYZSMMDNZS9Q9&

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>
> Where could I view the 13 TV episodes of POTA online? I can't find it on Youtube.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave S.
>

There are many theories about that. You might want to check out the Revolution mini-series comic (http://www.filestube.com/r/revolution+on+the+planet+of+the+apes) done a few years ago or the previously mentioned Ape City Chronicles here.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>
> While we're at it, what happened between Conquest and Battle that led to nuclear war, and why did the underdwellers remain in the filthy dark underground if they could live on the land like the apes and other humans?
> Why did the apes not develop technologically in the 2000 years between Battle and POTA?
> They remained in the horse and buggy stage for 2000 years despite having knowledge in other areas.
> Dave S.
>

These topics were never covered in the five original films. Marvel did some interesting comics in the '70s which speculated on some of this. You may also want to check out the Ape City Chronicles series on this group (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/ACC.htm) for some possible answers.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>
> Was there a United Ape Nations and did all apes speak only English? Or were there Chinese and Arabic speaking apes? And how did the apes manage as slaves and free people in cold climates?
> Was there any intention to do another story after Battle and were there any intellectual humans besides the McDonald brothers or any intellectual gorillas?
> It sounded as if the chimps were prejudiced against gorillas ....
> Dave S.
>
>

According to Drew Gaska, it will be available for pre-order on both Amazon and Barnes & Noble starting next Monday.

https://twitter.com/#!/thelibertylogs

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@... wrote:
>
> Who will be carrying the CONSPIRACY book? In other words, will it be
> available at major retailers like Barnes and Noble or will it only be available
> thru comic shops/specialty stores?</HTML>
>

"Battle" was all the Lawgiver's dream?! You saved it!


From: shrstrategygames
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:48 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Newbie Questions about POTA



Dave: "How did so many apes acquire language in just a mere eight or ten years in Battle?"

What I believe we saw in "Battle" in terms of the Caesar saga is a uneven blend of fact, legend and myth, all blended into one. For you see, the movie starts out with the Lawgiver reading about Caesar's exploits and then segue-ways from 2670 A.D. to around 2000 A.D. when you see the Lawgiver close his eyes (and then the frame freezes to emphasizes that he's trying to imagine in his own mind the story of Caesar in those far-off days of yore.

Like humans, apes would more likely have predisposed to embellishing their orally-transmitted tales and exploits, and after the nuclear holocaust, who can say how long it was until records were written down, recopied, preserved/saved, and copied again for posterity.

Dave: "And why did the creators of Rise have to develop a story different from Conquest?"

Because they're apparently intent on fully re-imagining the saga and eventually realizing the nihilist future of the very first "Planet of the Apes" movie. As to whether they plan to eventually blow up the Planet of the Apes a la "Beneath", who can say?

Attachments :

troy-mcclure-stop-the-planet-of-the-apes.png
battle+marquee+calf+1973.jpg

.html<.html

It just became harder to get a Best Picture Oscar nomination. After a couple years with 10 nominees, it's been announced the number of nominees could be anywhere from 5 to 10. Now nominees have to at least get 5% of the # 1 votes for the year to qualify. So "Rise" will have to be even better.
"Rise of the POTA" being a Best Picture nominee might seem laughable to some, but there's been some good vibes coming from the innovative production. The WETA FX company has been a lucky charm as far as nominations. All 3 "Lord of the Rings" movies were Best Picture noms ("Return of the King" won Best Picture) and both "Avatar" and "District 9" got Best Pic nominations in 2010.

Thanks. Unfortunately none of the files on that link appear to work.

Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "jamesa1102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
>
> There are many theories about that. You might want to check out the
> Revolution mini-series comic
> (http://www.filestube.com/r/revolution+on+the+planet+of+the+apes
> <http://www.filestube.com/r/revolution+on+the+planet+of+the+apes> ) done
> a few years ago or the previously mentioned Ape City Chronicles here.
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@> wrote:
> >
> > While we're at it, what happened between Conquest and Battle that led
> to nuclear war, and why did the underdwellers remain in the filthy dark
> underground if they could live on the land like the apes and other
> humans?
> > Why did the apes not develop technologically in the 2000 years between
> Battle and POTA?
> > They remained in the horse and buggy stage for 2000 years despite
> having knowledge in other areas.
> > Dave S.
> >
>

POTA fans know that primates and comic books (sometimes) mix and here's news of a upcoming comic book, including a contribution from Stan Lee, that raises dough to help apes and others (specifically the Primate Rescue Center). Don't forget, people are primates too (but not all primates are people, you know).

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/50023

.html The chances of rise getting a "major" nomination is slim apart from perhaps special effects.

I remember the clamour before The Phantom Mennace was even released that it was gonna sweep the oscars but we all know what a steaming turd that film was.

Robert Mansell

    

     On 15/06/2011 15:46, Jeff K. wrote:
    

       
      
          

            
 It just became harder to get a Best Picture Oscar
              nomination. After a couple years with 10 nominees, it's
              been announced the number of nominees could be anywhere
              from 5 to 10. Now nominees have to at least get 5% of the
              # 1 votes for the year to qualify. So "Rise" will have to
              be even better.

              "Rise of the POTA" being a Best Picture nominee might seem
              laughable to some, but there's been some good vibes coming
              from the innovative production. The WETA FX company has
              been a lucky charm as far as nominations. All 3 "Lord of
              the Rings" movies were Best Picture noms ("Return of the
              King" won Best Picture) and both "Avatar" and "District 9"
              got Best Pic nominations in 2010.
              
              
            
          
        
      
      

    
  

<.html

The novel makes it clear that the apes weren't really capable of original thought. The whole point is that they are "aping" (i.e. mimicking) the human civilization that came before them. They never advanced because they were just going through the motions of civilized behavior.

The movie doesn't really bring this up, though it's somewhat alluded to in the cave scene at Cornelius's archaelogical site.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>....
> Why did the apes not develop technologically in the 2000 years between Battle and POTA?
> They remained in the horse and buggy stage for 2000 years despite having knowledge in other areas.
> Dave S.
>

.html<.html

.html<.html

Yes, the chimps have a glimmer of actual intelligence and occasionally come up with something new, but even Cornelius was uncomfortable with the realization that Merou was his intellectual superior.

-Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
>
> The novel makes it clear that the apes weren't really capable of original thought. The whole point is that they are "aping" (i.e. mimicking) the human civilization that came before them. They never advanced because they were just going through the motions of civilized behavior.
>
> The movie doesn't really bring this up, though it's somewhat alluded to in the cave scene at Cornelius's archaeological site.
>
>
>
>
> But Boulle's story also eludes to the apes just coming out of this imitative "Dark Age" and were at the start intellectual awakening, at least with the chimpanzees. They were also just beginning to experiment with rockets, hence Merou was able to get off the planet.
>
> -- Rory
>

Conspiracy of the Planet of the Apes will be available...everywhere! Barnes and Nobles, Amazon.com, and comic shops. Pre-orders go up in the next week or so, I will keep everyone posted!

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@... wrote:
>
> Who will be carrying the CONSPIRACY book? In other words, will it be
> available at major retailers like Barnes and Noble or will it only be available
> thru comic shops/specialty stores?</HTML>
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:

> But Boulle's story also eludes to the apes just coming out of this imitative "Dark Age" and were at the start intellectual awakening, at least with the chimpanzees. They were also just beginning to experiment with rockets, hence Merou was able to get off the planet.
>
> -- Rory
>

Not only were apes beginning with space travel (initiated by the chimpanzees), they had begun experimenting with machines that could read the past generations' thoughts lying dormant in the human brain (I'm not sure that us humans will ever be able to beat that sort of technology ;) ). So, to say that ape society in Boulle's book was pure mimicry and static isn't exactly so; slow to advance, but not static... at least not by the time Ulysse arrived on Soror.


Graham

The reason the apes were so involved with brain experimentation was because experimental labs were where the first ape turned the tables on the humans. The humans had been experimenting with apes in the lab, and when the apes took over they likewise conducted experiments on humans.

The apes uncovered the "racial memory" of humans from the female test subject, but we don't really know if this was a medical advance. This all takes place on another planet, remember, and the human civilization that had preceded the apes may have already been well versed in memory regression, for all we know.

Of course, the idea of racial memory no longer has as much currency now as it did when Boulle wrote his book, but a lot of people used to believe that racial memory could be recovered by hypnosis. So for Boulle's purposes in the novel, we already HAD discovered how to do memory regression.

Boulle's novel was a commentary on what he saw as the dumbing down of society and the intellectual laziness of human beings. The apes are a metaphor for us. We go through our lives unwilling to expend the intellectual energy necessary to think for ourselves, and may as well be apes just going through the motions. The novel is a cautionary tale, whereas the movie is an adventure story.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@ wrote:
>
> > But Boulle's story also eludes to the apes just coming out of this imitative "Dark Age" and were at the start intellectual awakening, at least with the chimpanzees. They were also just beginning to experiment with rockets, hence Merou was able to get off the planet.
> >
> > -- Rory
> >
>
> Not only were apes beginning with space travel (initiated by the chimpanzees), they had begun experimenting with machines that could read the past generations' thoughts lying dormant in the human brain (I'm not sure that us humans will ever be able to beat that sort of technology ;) ). So, to say that ape society in Boulle's book was pure mimicry and static isn't exactly so; slow to advance, but not static... at least not by the time Ulysse arrived on Soror.
>
>
> Graham
>

CORRECTION! PRE-ORDER for Conspiracy of the Planet of the Apes ON AMAZON IS UP... NOW!

http://amzn.to/lOGdLF

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "blamventurer" <blamventurer@...> wrote:
>
> Conspiracy of the Planet of the Apes will be available...everywhere! Barnes and Nobles, Amazon.com, and comic shops. Pre-orders go up in the next week or so, I will keep everyone posted!
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@ wrote:
> >
> > Who will be carrying the CONSPIRACY book? In other words, will it be
> > available at major retailers like Barnes and Noble or will it only be available
> > thru comic shops/specialty stores?</HTML>
> >
>

On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Blam <blamventurer@...> wrote:

CORRECTION! PRE-ORDER for Conspiracy of the Planet of the Apes ON AMAZON IS UP... NOW!

http://amzn.to/lOGdLF

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "blamventurer" <blamventurer@...> wrote:
>
> Conspiracy of the Planet of the Apes will be available...everywhere! Barnes and Nobles, Amazon.com, and comic shops. Pre-orders go up in the next week or so, I will keep everyone posted!
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@ wrote:
> >
> > Who will be carrying the CONSPIRACY book? In other words, will it be
> > available at major retailers like Barnes and Noble or will it only be available
> > thru comic shops/specialty stores?</HTML>
> >
>

According to imdb, James "Rise of the POTA" Franco is currently directing his bio of Sal "Escape From the POTA" Mineo. Franco plays Mineo's "Butterflies Are Free" Broadway director Milton Katselas (circa 1975). All I ask is that they do an "Escape" scene, where Mineo storms off the set and says, "I can't take it! Who writes this CRAP? No Roddy, I'm leaving. I'm DONE!". Then Roddy retorts, "Sal, I believe some day they will be able to make these movies using, I don't know, computers or something. But for now they need actors in makeup. That's us". They walk past Franco, who smiles knowingly.
That's all I ask.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1794943/fullcredits#cast

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> The reason the apes were so involved with brain experimentation was because experimental labs were where the first ape turned the tables on the humans. The humans had been experimenting with apes in the lab, and when the apes took over they likewise conducted experiments on humans.
>
> The apes uncovered the "racial memory" of humans from the female test subject, but we don't really know if this was a medical advance. This all takes place on another planet, remember, and the human civilization that had preceded the apes may have already been well versed in memory regression, for all we know.

Yes, that might well be the case. However, for the apes, the process was only just discovered by Helius (or rediscovered if humanity on that planet discovered it thousands of years beforehand), which suggests that they went from a state of not knowing to knowing; still a discovery on their part, for all intents and purposes. Whether the humans knew of this process in the previous society is a bit moot seeing that the apes "rediscovered" the process, which would require something more than mere mimicry on their parts.

The book does suggest that ape society began moving on more rapidly, innovating and inventing, when chimpanzees were given more freedom in the scientific fields against the conservative influence of the orangutans, whose tendency was to keep their society static (not all apes "ape" equally?). This social change in ape society seems to explain the beginnings of space exploration and the machines that read "racial memories", which were inventions that had only come recently to that society, not inventions that had been known and in use for the thousands of years since apes overthrew humanity on Soror. Then again, maybe Ulysse's story suffered from translation issues or something.


Graham

PS - The fluorescent yellow for the group page begs the wearing of sunglasses...

Graham (cjh5801): "The reason the apes were so involved with brain experimentation was because experimental labs were where the first ape turned the tables on the humans. The humans had been experimenting with apes in the lab, and when the apes took over they likewise conducted experiments on humans."

Nonsense! In Pierre Boulle's novel, there was no direct causitive connection between that one isolated lab ancient incident that occurred during the apes' prehistory thousands of years before and the fact that modern-day apes on Soror were doing brain experimentation on humans. Indeed, Zira herself didn't expect to hear what she heard during that electronic seance. (That was news to her.) Moreover, apes themselves were supposed to be the ultimate beneficiaries from their studies done on humans. Humans were used because they were the primate most similar to apes themselves and were thus used as guinea pigs.

Dave: "How did so many apes acquire language in just a mere eight or ten years in Battle?"

James King: "What I believe we saw in 'Battle' in terms of the Caesar saga is a uneven blend of fact, legend and myth, all blended into one. For you see, the movie starts out with the Lawgiver reading about Caesar's exploits and then segue-ways from 2670 A.D. to around 2000 A.D. when you see the Lawgiver close his eyes (and then the frame freezes to emphasizes that he's trying to imagine in his own mind the story of Caesar in those far-off days of yore. Like humans, apes would more likely have predisposed to embellishing their orally-transmitted tales and exploits, and after the nuclear holocaust, who can say how long it was until records were written down, recopied, preserved/saved, and copied again for posterity."

Jeff K: "'Battle' was all the Lawgiver's dream?! You saved it!"

Nope, I didn't allude to any "dream". I referred to the events recounted by the Lawgiver as an uneven blend of fact, legend and myth that was probably idealized into a compelling account by a multitude of oral and later writer storytellers.

In proper context, since we already know the end of the movie, we can surmise that the Lawgiver was momentarily closing his eyes in order to relive those events in his own mind's eye (much like trying to envision a movie in one's mind) as a good storyteller might do. But in my opinion, that cinematic device was not meant as a literal flashback to the past but rather to a more idealized version of the past which again was a composite of fact, legend and myth.

For all we know, the Lawgiver of 2670 A.D. may well have woven together that story from a number of separate accounts of those events; only his is to be the one that hopefully will be preserved for posterity. But because of Caesar's efforts to deviate from the original doomed timeline, the Lawgiver we saw in 2670 A.D. may not have been the same one referred to in the original POTA and BTPOTA. And the memoralization of Caesar should essentially eclipse the significance of the Lawgiver.

Indeed, from that point onward -- if they had't already existed -- there should emerge human Lawgivers as well.

.html<.html

Well, if the rebellion occurred when Cesaer was 20 that was in 1993. And if Battle occurred when he had a young son about 10 years later after the nuclear war, then the apes had all learned a huge amount in a very short time after 1993! Despite the fact that Virgil had been a teacher of others many years before!

And did the nuclear war have something to do with the rebellion??
Dave S

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shrstrategygames" <shrstrategygames@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dave: "How did so many apes acquire language in just a mere eight or ten years in Battle?"
>
> James King: "What I believe we saw in 'Battle' in terms of the Caesar saga is a uneven blend of fact, legend and myth, all blended into one. For you see, the movie starts out with the Lawgiver reading about Caesar's exploits and then segue-ways from 2670 A.D. to around 2000 A.D. when you see the Lawgiver close his eyes (and then the frame freezes to emphasizes that he's trying to imagine in his own mind the story of Caesar in those far-off days of yore. Like humans, apes would more likely have predisposed to embellishing their orally-transmitted tales and exploits, and after the nuclear holocaust, who can say how long it was until records were written down, recopied, preserved/saved, and copied again for posterity."
>
> Jeff K: "'Battle' was all the Lawgiver's dream?! You saved it!"
>
> Nope, I didn't allude to any "dream". I referred to the events recounted by the Lawgiver as an uneven blend of fact, legend and myth that was probably idealized into a compelling account by a multitude of oral and later writer storytellers.
>
> In proper context, since we already know the end of the movie, we can surmise that the Lawgiver was momentarily closing his eyes in order to relive those events in his own mind's eye (much like trying to envision a movie in one's mind) as a good storyteller might do. But in my opinion, that cinematic device was not meant as a literal flashback to the past but rather to a more idealized version of the past which again was a composite of fact, legend and myth.
>
> For all we know, the Lawgiver of 2670 A.D. may well have woven together that story from a number of separate accounts of those events; only his is to be the one that hopefully will be preserved for posterity. But because of Caesar's efforts to deviate from the original doomed timeline, the Lawgiver we saw in 2670 A.D. may not have been the same one referred to in the original POTA and BTPOTA. And the memoralization of Caesar should essentially eclipse the significance of the Lawgiver.
>
> Indeed, from that point onward -- if they had't already existed -- there should emerge human Lawgivers as well.
>

Why did the creators of the 2001 film want to develop a story having nothing to do with the original films, and why did the creators of Rise want to create yet another storyline having nothing to do with either?
Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shrstrategygames" <shrstrategygames@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dave: "How did so many apes acquire language in just a mere eight or ten years in Battle?"
>
> James King: "What I believe we saw in 'Battle' in terms of the Caesar saga is a uneven blend of fact, legend and myth, all blended into one. For you see, the movie starts out with the Lawgiver reading about Caesar's exploits and then segue-ways from 2670 A.D. to around 2000 A.D. when you see the Lawgiver close his eyes (and then the frame freezes to emphasizes that he's trying to imagine in his own mind the story of Caesar in those far-off days of yore. Like humans, apes would more likely have predisposed to embellishing their orally-transmitted tales and exploits, and after the nuclear holocaust, who can say how long it was until records were written down, recopied, preserved/saved, and copied again for posterity."
>
> Jeff K: "'Battle' was all the Lawgiver's dream?! You saved it!"
>
> Nope, I didn't allude to any "dream". I referred to the events recounted by the Lawgiver as an uneven blend of fact, legend and myth that was probably idealized into a compelling account by a multitude of oral and later writer storytellers.
>
> In proper context, since we already know the end of the movie, we can surmise that the Lawgiver was momentarily closing his eyes in order to relive those events in his own mind's eye (much like trying to envision a movie in one's mind) as a good storyteller might do. But in my opinion, that cinematic device was not meant as a literal flashback to the past but rather to a more idealized version of the past which again was a composite of fact, legend and myth.
>
> For all we know, the Lawgiver of 2670 A.D. may well have woven together that story from a number of separate accounts of those events; only his is to be the one that hopefully will be preserved for posterity. But because of Caesar's efforts to deviate from the original doomed timeline, the Lawgiver we saw in 2670 A.D. may not have been the same one referred to in the original POTA and BTPOTA. And the memoralization of Caesar should essentially eclipse the significance of the Lawgiver.
>
> Indeed, from that point onward -- if they had't already existed -- there should emerge human Lawgivers as well.
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shrstrategygames" <shrstrategygames@...> wrote:

>
> Graham (cjh5801): "The reason the apes were so involved with brain experimentation was because experimental labs were where the first ape turned the tables on the humans. The humans had been experimenting with apes in the lab, and when the apes took over they likewise conducted experiments on humans."
>
> Nonsense! In Pierre Boulle's novel, there was no direct causitive connection between that one isolated lab ancient incident that occurred during the apes' prehistory thousands of years before and the fact that modern-day apes on Soror were doing brain experimentation on humans. Indeed, Zira herself didn't expect to hear what she heard during that electronic seance. (That was news to her.) Moreover, apes themselves were supposed to be the ultimate beneficiaries from their studies done on humans. Humans were used because they were the primate most similar to apes themselves and were thus used as guinea pigs.
>

Any chance you can make it clear that what you quoted isn't my own words? In fact, it's quite possible that I agree with you. ;) It seems from a glance, despite putting "cjh5801" in brackets, that those words are mine, despite being words that I disagreed with and responded against.

Thanks.


Graham

There's plenty of movie lists out there in Internet Land, but this one I kinda dug. The reviewer talks about films he's ideologically opposed to, then explains why they're "great films". In our partisan world, that seems fair. An exercise in left brain, right brain. And it's a surprise to see POTA on this list, especially this high up (# 5).

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jjmnolte/2011/01/12/top-25-left-wing-films-5-planet-of-the-apes-1968/

And here's the list (a planned Top 25 but only 20 so far):

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/tag/top-25-left-wing-films/

Because the original films were 40 years ago.


From: Dave
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:19 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Newbie Questions about POTA



Why did the creators of the 2001 film want to develop a story having nothing to do with the original films, and why did the creators of Rise want to create yet another storyline having nothing to do with either?
Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shrstrategygames" <shrstrategygames@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dave: "How did so many apes acquire language in just a mere eight or ten years in Battle?"
>
> James King: "What I believe we saw in 'Battle' in terms of the Caesar saga is a uneven blend of fact, legend and myth, all blended into one. For you see, the movie starts out with the Lawgiver reading about Caesar's exploits and then segue-ways from 2670 A.D. to around 2000 A.D. when you see the Lawgiver close his eyes (and then the frame freezes to emphasizes that he's trying to imagine in his own mind the story of Caesar in those far-off days of yore. Like humans, apes would more likely have predisposed to embellishing their orally-transmitted tales and exploits, and after the nuclear holocaust, who can say how long it was until records were written down, recopied, preserved/saved, and copied again for posterity."
>
> Jeff K: "'Battle' was all the Lawgiver's dream?! You saved it!"
>
> Nope, I didn't allude to any "dream". I referred to the events recounted by the Lawgiver as an uneven blend of fact, legend and myth that was probably idealized into a compelling account by a multitude of oral and later writer storytellers.
>
> In proper context, since we already know the end of the movie, we can surmise that the Lawgiver was momentarily closing his eyes in order to relive those events in his own mind's eye (much like trying to envision a movie in one's mind) as a good storyteller might do. But in my opinion, that cinematic device was not meant as a literal flashback to the past but rather to a more idealized version of the past which again was a composite of fact, legend and myth.
>
> For all we know, the Lawgiver of 2670 A.D. may well have woven together that story from a number of separate accounts of those events; only his is to be the one that hopefully will be preserved for posterity. But because of Caesar's efforts to deviate from the original doomed timeline, the Lawgiver we saw in 2670 A.D. may not have been the same one referred to in the original POTA and BTPOTA. And the memoralization of Caesar should essentially eclipse the significance of the Lawgiver.
>
> Indeed, from that point onward -- if they had't already existed -- there should emerge human Lawgivers as well.
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:

>
> Why did the creators of the 2001 film want to develop a story having nothing to do with the original films, and why did the creators of Rise want to create yet another storyline having nothing to do with either?
> Dave S.
>

Why mess around with a classic? You might hate the Burton film, or you might not (like myself), but at least he didn't sully the original film story arc. I remember listening to his commentary on the DVD (yes, I know, laugh if you must...), and he says something along the lines that he didn't want his film to mess about with the original's story. I'd not like to be Burton if he did change anything in the original film's universe, considering the bad reaction that his 2001 film caused amongst a lot of the Apes community, and I'd imagine that that went through the minds of the ones making the coming film. ;) In fact, I'm glad that the 2001 film, and the coming film, can be kept in their own universes, which makes things a bit less complicated. Anyway, let's be honest, the original film is in yet another universe compared to the book (which is very different in its story, etc), so it's not just a PotA2001 or Rise issue.


Graham

Zira being there is news to me... ;)




In a message dated 6/16/2011 5:18:57 AM Central Daylight Time,
shrstrategygames@... writes:

> Indeed, Zira herself didn't expect to hear what she heard during that
> electronic seance. (That was news to her.)

</HTML>

I agree with this...




In a message dated 6/16/2011 5:52:17 AM Central Daylight Time,
shrstrategygames@... writes:

> But because of Caesar's efforts to deviate from the original doomed
> timeline, the Lawgiver we saw in 2670 A.D. may not have been the same one
> referred to in the original POTA and BTPOTA.

</HTML>

No, but it may have indirectly helped it...The humans were taking each
other out so the apes didn't have to...


In a message dated 6/16/2011 8:08:28 AM Central Daylight Time,
davesbatene@... writes:

> And did the nuclear war have something to do with the rebellion??

</HTML>

cjh5801 is, in fact, me, Clark. May I draw the attention of both of you to chapter thirty-one of Boulle's novel:

"There was no longer any doubt in my mind that a human era had preceded the simian age on the planet Soror, and this conviction gave me a sort of intoxication.

On secomd thought, however, I am not sure if I ought to be proud of this discovery or profoundly humiliated by it. My self-respect notes with satisfaction that apes have invented nothing, that they are mere imitators. My humiliation derives from the fact that a human civilization could have been so easily assimilated by apes."

And:

"The importance they [the apes] attach to biological research, for instance--well, I am fully aware of its origin. In the old days many apes must have served as experimental subjects for men, as is the case in our own laboratories. These were the ones who first hoisted the flag, who were the pioneers of the revolution. They would naturally have begun by imitating the gestures and attitudes observed in their masters, and these masters were researchers, learned biologists, doctors, nurses, and warders. Hence this unusual imprimt on most of their enterprises, which still persists today."

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shrstrategygames" <shrstrategygames@> wrote:
> >
> > Graham (cjh5801): "The reason the apes were so involved with brain experimentation was because experimental labs were where the first ape turned the tables on the humans. The humans had been experimenting with apes in the lab, and when the apes took over they likewise conducted experiments on humans."
> >
> > Nonsense! In Pierre Boulle's novel, there was no direct causitive connection between that one isolated lab ancient incident that occurred during the apes' prehistory thousands of years before and the fact that modern-day apes on Soror were doing brain experimentation on humans. Indeed, Zira herself didn't expect to hear what she heard during that electronic seance. (That was news to her.) Moreover, apes themselves were supposed to be the ultimate beneficiaries from their studies done on humans. Humans were used because they were the primate most similar to apes themselves and were thus used as guinea pigs.
> >
>
> Any chance you can make it clear that what you quoted isn't my own words? In fact, it's quite possible that I agree with you. ;) It seems from a glance, despite putting "cjh5801" in brackets, that those words are mine, despite being words that I disagreed with and responded against.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Graham
>

.html

 

There's plenty of movie lists out there in Internet Land, but this one I kinda dug. The reviewer talks about films he's ideologically opposed to, then explains why they're "great films". In our partisan world, that seems fair. An exercise in left brain, right brain. And it's a surprise to see POTA on this list, especially this high up (# 5).

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/jjmnolte/2011/01/12/top-25-left-wing-films-5-planet-of-the-apes-1968/

And here's the list (a planned Top 25 but only 20 so far):

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/tag/top-25-left-wing-films/

How does someone manage to write about this and never mention Michael Wilson?

 

Dumb human.

<.html

I guess it could be argued that Rise is a more realistic starting point than Conquest ....
Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@> wrote:
> >
> > Why did the creators of the 2001 film want to develop a story having nothing to do with the original films, and why did the creators of Rise want to create yet another storyline having nothing to do with either?
> > Dave S.
> >
>
> Why mess around with a classic? You might hate the Burton film, or you might not (like myself), but at least he didn't sully the original film story arc. I remember listening to his commentary on the DVD (yes, I know, laugh if you must...), and he says something along the lines that he didn't want his film to mess about with the original's story. I'd not like to be Burton if he did change anything in the original film's universe, considering the bad reaction that his 2001 film caused amongst a lot of the Apes community, and I'd imagine that that went through the minds of the ones making the coming film. ;) In fact, I'm glad that the 2001 film, and the coming film, can be kept in their own universes, which makes things a bit less complicated. Anyway, let's be honest, the original film is in yet another universe compared to the book (which is very different in its story, etc), so it's not just a PotA2001 or Rise issue.
>
>
> Graham
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@...> wrote:

>
> cjh5801 is, in fact, me, Clark. May I draw the attention of both of you to chapter thirty-one of Boulle's novel:
>
> "There was no longer any doubt in my mind that a human era had preceded the simian age on the planet Soror, and this conviction gave me a sort of intoxication.
>
> On secomd thought, however, I am not sure if I ought to be proud of this discovery or profoundly humiliated by it. My self-respect notes with satisfaction that apes have invented nothing, that they are mere imitators. My humiliation derives from the fact that a human civilization could have been so easily assimilated by apes."
>
> And:
>
> "The importance they [the apes] attach to biological research, for instance--well, I am fully aware of its origin. In the old days many apes must have served as experimental subjects for men, as is the case in our own laboratories. These were the ones who first hoisted the flag, who were the pioneers of the revolution. They would naturally have begun by imitating the gestures and attitudes observed in their masters, and these masters were researchers, learned biologists, doctors, nurses, and warders. Hence this unusual imprimt on most of their enterprises, which still persists today."
>
> - Clark

Nevertheless, it's all moot, because the apes - the chimpanzees in this case - learnt something fresh for themselves. I'm not just talking about biological experiments, I'm talking about the invention of machines that can read past generations' memories. They didn't know something, then discovered something, and didn't do it via mimicry. Whether the humans in the previous society knew about such machines that can read "racial memories" or not isn't the argument, the argument is whether the apes could learn something new and apply themselves with this new knowledge, which they did. Why weren't these machines around for thousands of years if the apes couldn't innovate? Helius clearly discovered something that wasn't known by the apes previously, he learnt something through discovery and innovation.

The book even suggests that the apes discover something now and then through the centuries (something like a couple of inventions each hundred years or so), and that this process had sped up since the chimpanzees were allowed more influence in the scientific side of things over the last few decades before Ulysse arrived. Maybe I'll go and find the quotes of that, but I suspect that seeing you've read the book like myself, you will know it too. It's clear that the book is showing a division of labour amongst the apes, in which the orangutans retard the development of the apes, suppressing the chimpanzees in particular, thereby keeping innovation to a mininum. Once the chimpanzees are allowed more influence, things begin to change a bit faster.


Graham

Could someone remind me the explanation of how the faraway planet Soror ended up causing the ape General Thade to end up on Earth in POTA 2001?

Dave S

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>
> I guess it could be argued that Rise is a more realistic starting point than Conquest ....
> Dave S.
>
>

The biological research stuff in Boulle kinda reflects into "Rise", where the ape rebellion starts.


From: cjh5801
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 1:13 PM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Newbie Questions about POTA



cjh5801 is, in fact, me, Clark. May I draw the attention of both of you to chapter thirty-one of Boulle's novel:

"There was no longer any doubt in my mind that a human era had preceded the simian age on the planet Soror, and this conviction gave me a sort of intoxication.

On secomd thought, however, I am not sure if I ought to be proud of this discovery or profoundly humiliated by it. My self-respect notes with satisfaction that apes have invented nothing, that they are mere imitators. My humiliation derives from the fact that a human civilization could have been so easily assimilated by apes."

And:

"The importance they [the apes] attach to biological research, for instance--well, I am fully aware of its origin. In the old days many apes must have served as experimental subjects for men, as is the case in our own laboratories. These were the ones who first hoisted the flag, who were the pioneers of the revolution. They would naturally have begun by imitating the gestures and attitudes observed in their masters, and these masters were researchers, learned biologists, doctors, nurses, and warders. Hence this unusual imprimt on most of their enterprises, which still persists today."

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:

>
> Could someone remind me the explanation of how the faraway planet Soror ended up causing the ape General Thade to end up on Earth in POTA 2001?
>
> Dave S

I'm not going to go into how Thade came to Earth and managed to conquer humanity, but I will say that the planet that Thade originated from wasn't Soror. Soror was the name given to the planet by the three astronauts that landed on the planet in the book by Boulle (Soror means sister in Latin). The planet that Thade was on and that Leo crashed on was called Ashlar (well, according to preliminary scripts; not mentioned in the film itself), and has no relation whatsoever with anything in the book (nor has the original film, either). The book is its own story, and PotA2001 has its own story, which doesn't collide with the book or the original series.


Graham

Judging from the cast of characters listed it looks like the movie will concentrate on Mineo's last months, when he felt his career was reviving but got murdered.


From: Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:58 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Franco's Sal Mineo movie rolling






According to imdb, James "Rise of the POTA" Franco is currently directing his bio of Sal "Escape From the POTA" Mineo. Franco plays Mineo's "Butterflies Are Free" Broadway director Milton Katselas (circa 1975). All I ask is that they do an "Escape" scene, where Mineo storms off the set and says, "I can't take it! Who writes this CRAP? No Roddy, I'm leaving. I'm DONE!". Then Roddy retorts, "Sal, I believe some day they will be able to make these movies using, I don't know, computers or something. But for now they need actors in makeup. That's us". They walk past Franco, who smiles knowingly.
That's all I ask.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1794943/fullcredits#cast





I wonder if they'll reenact the scene where Sal's beard, Jill Haworth, walks in on him and Bobby Sherman doin' the nasty?

It's not actually that much of an argument. If you look upthread you may note that I had previously said:

"Yes, the chimps have a glimmer of actual intelligence and occasionally come up with something new, but even Cornelius was uncomfortable with the realization that Merou was his intellectual superior."

But my point is that Boulle was making a comment on the intellectual laziness and ennui of his fellow man in his novel by metaphorically equating us to the apes. It is quite clear that despite the occasional advances of the chimps, he is postulating a stagnant society that is merely imitating what has gone before, which is what he feared our society was in danger of becoming.

And I'd suggest that the two "advances" you specifically mention, the memory regression and the space rocket, are merely plot contrivances, and shouldn't be given much weight in judging the ape society depicted in the novel. The memory regression was inserted into the story in order for Boulle to provide a mechanism by which the apes (and the reader) could learn that humans had once been the dominant species, and how human society had fallen through ennui. The rocket was just a convenient method for Boulle to get Merlou back to his mothership in orbit around Soror so he could return to Earth and learn that the same fate had befallen us.

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@> wrote:
> >
> > cjh5801 is, in fact, me, Clark. May I draw the attention of both of you to chapter thirty-one of Boulle's novel:
> >
> > "There was no longer any doubt in my mind that a human era had preceded the simian age on the planet Soror, and this conviction gave me a sort of intoxication.
> >
> > On secomd thought, however, I am not sure if I ought to be proud of this discovery or profoundly humiliated by it. My self-respect notes with satisfaction that apes have invented nothing, that they are mere imitators. My humiliation derives from the fact that a human civilization could have been so easily assimilated by apes."
> >
> > And:
> >
> > "The importance they [the apes] attach to biological research, for instance--well, I am fully aware of its origin. In the old days many apes must have served as experimental subjects for men, as is the case in our own laboratories. These were the ones who first hoisted the flag, who were the pioneers of the revolution. They would naturally have begun by imitating the gestures and attitudes observed in their masters, and these masters were researchers, learned biologists, doctors, nurses, and warders. Hence this unusual imprimt on most of their enterprises, which still persists today."
> >
> > - Clark
>
>
> Nevertheless, it's all moot, because the apes - the chimpanzees in this case - learnt something fresh for themselves. I'm not just talking about biological experiments, I'm talking about the invention of machines that can read past generations' memories. They didn't know something, then discovered something, and didn't do it via mimicry. Whether the humans in the previous society knew about such machines that can read "racial memories" or not isn't the argument, the argument is whether the apes could learn something new and apply themselves with this new knowledge, which they did. Why weren't these machines around for thousands of years if the apes couldn't innovate? Helius clearly discovered something that wasn't known by the apes previously, he learnt something through discovery and innovation.
>
> The book even suggests that the apes discover something now and then through the centuries (something like a couple of inventions each hundred years or so), and that this process had sped up since the chimpanzees were allowed more influence in the scientific side of things over the last few decades before Ulysse arrived. Maybe I'll go and find the quotes of that, but I suspect that seeing you've read the book like myself, you will know it too. It's clear that the book is showing a division of labour amongst the apes, in which the orangutans retard the development of the apes, suppressing the chimpanzees in particular, thereby keeping innovation to a mininum. Once the chimpanzees are allowed more influence, things begin to change a bit faster.
>
>
> Graham
>

Hi, Graham. Sorry, I mixed up Ashlar and Soror. In any event, the apes on Ashlar someday engaged in space travel and went through the wrinkle in time, getting to Earth before Wahlberg's character and changing the world into which he subsequently re-entered, apparently with no way of ever getting away from there.

Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@> wrote:
> >
> > Could someone remind me the explanation of how the faraway planet Soror ended up causing the ape General Thade to end up on Earth in POTA 2001?
> >
> > Dave S
>
> I'm not going to go into how Thade came to Earth and managed to conquer humanity, but I will say that the planet that Thade originated from wasn't Soror. Soror was the name given to the planet by the three astronauts that landed on the planet in the book by Boulle (Soror means sister in Latin). The planet that Thade was on and that Leo crashed on was called Ashlar (well, according to preliminary scripts; not mentioned in the film itself), and has no relation whatsoever with anything in the book (nor has the original film, either). The book is its own story, and PotA2001 has its own story, which doesn't collide with the book or the original series.
>
>
> Graham
>

Thade wasn't from Soror--that's the planet in Boulle's novel. Thade was from Ashlar. As for how he got to Earth, an insert in the DVD indicated he managed to get Leo's crashed pod up and running (just as Milo had with Taylor's ship) and followed Leo back to Earth, but arrived farther back in the past.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>
> Could someone remind me the explanation of how the faraway planet Soror ended up causing the ape General Thade to end up on Earth in POTA 2001?
>
> Dave S
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@> wrote:
> >
> > I guess it could be argued that Rise is a more realistic starting point than Conquest ....
> > Dave S.
> >
> >
>

I agree completely. It's the main thing that fascinates me about RISE. CONQUEST was my least favorite of the original series, and my initial thought that RISE might be something of a remake of that film left me a bit cold. When I learned of the medical research aspect of the new film's plot, my interest level rose considerably.

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> The biological research stuff in Boulle kinda reflects into "Rise", where the ape rebellion starts.

Oh, I should probably mention that I think you might be mis-remembering the stuff about the memory regression "machines".

The memory regression was accomplished by a combination of the application of electricity to the exposed brain of the subject by way of a simple generator, transformers, and electrodes (which was a process apparently developed in the old days by Soror's human scientists) and some sort of chemical agent concocted by Helius. We don't know whether Helius relied on genius or chance in developing his new chemical formula.

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
>

> Nevertheless, it's all moot, because the apes - the chimpanzees in this case - learnt something fresh for themselves. I'm not just talking about biological experiments, I'm talking about the invention of machines that can read past generations' memories....

.html <.html

Yeah, it is pretty good. I'd love to sign up, but keep getting 'that page does not exist'. Grr. I find myself wondering sometimes a, just how many other conservative fans out there, and b, why I seem attracted to some things that don't probably attract a lot of conservatives lol

Mel

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Dario <darios@...> wrote:
>
> Gotta admit though, it's a well written overview and analysis of the movie. He even admits that it the one movie on the list that he enjoys the most and watches over and over. He also notes that while it is chock full of social commentary he does believe that it was intended to be a political movie.
>
> Soylent Green comes in at #19.
>
> Dario
>
> Sent from my iPad
>

Here's some more photos of the surroundings of Fox's "Rise" 50 summit, where (bloggers?) spent the day being indoctrinated about "Rise of the POTA". Fox placed an embargo on photos of the event itself, and apparently what was said. I guess they have to shut their traps until closer to the release. Damn you, Fox! You're off my Christmas list. And I'm NOT going to see "Mr. Popper's Penguins" now (and I was going to, too!).

http://liquidrice.com/ymw/2011/06/09/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes-summit-fox-studios/

http://www.nitrolicious.com/blog/2011/06/13/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes-rise-50-summit/

What happens to species such as monkeys and baboons in the world of the apes?
Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Graham. Sorry, I mixed up Ashlar and Soror. In any event, the apes on Ashlar someday engaged in space travel and went through the wrinkle in time, getting to Earth before Wahlberg's character and changing the world into which he subsequently re-entered, apparently with no way of ever getting away from there.
>
> Dave S.
>

It WOULD actually be interesting if they did cover Escape--it was seen as a kind of nadir to his career, but I, personally, think his performance works well---Milo is a vibrant character.His freaking out with the make-up could be a good scene----sitting in the make-up chair could let him ponder his downfall.There's a feature in Total Film this month about Screen US Presidents--mostly boring.Made me wonder has there ever been a more intelligent, weighty, portrayal of the moral dilemmas faced by a US President than William Windom's exchanges with Hasslein--that's really crisp, though provoking stuff.But then, that's what Apes does.John,Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Judging from the cast of characters listed it looks like the movie will concentrate on Mineo's last months, when he felt his career was reviving but got murdered.
>
>

TGIF! This week's installment of THE MENDEZ DYNASTY is now online.

To read the new MENDEZ biography, click on the banner on the Yahoo Home page or use this link: http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/MD.htm.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Visit all the Group's special features including:

• The Internal Website - Original POTA One Sheets & Lobby Cards, Trailers & Rare Videos, Trading Cards and much, much more.
• Marvel Archive

- Online archive of Marvel Comics' adaptations of the original POTA movies. Lessons from the Lawgiver – Words of wisdom from the Greatest Ape of All. Cornelius' Journal - The Memoirs of Dr. Cornelius. Ape City Chronicles - The history of Ape City's first 75 years, written by Virgil. The Illustrated Monkey Planet - Hungarian comic adaptation of Pierre Boulle's original novel. POTA Locations - The places where the POTA films were shot. The Art Gallery - Works of POTA Art by our members. The Database Section - POTA info ranging from Characters to Comics. The Photos Section - POTA pics contributed by members.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@...> wrote:

> But my point is that Boulle was making a comment on the intellectual laziness and ennui of his fellow man in his novel by metaphorically equating us to the apes. It is quite clear that despite the occasional advances of the chimps, he is postulating a stagnant society that is merely imitating what has gone before, which is what he feared our society was in danger of becoming.
>

I think it's a bit more complicated and nuanced than that general point (the satire and irony in Boulle's book isn't lost on me). I feel that he's also suggesting an issue with the static division of labour in ape society, with different apes being set aside different social and intellectual tasks, and that static division of labour actually hampering that society. The orangutans' bureaucratic, pedantic and conservative nature keeping ape society back, at the expense of the chimpanzees, who given the chance would lead their society forward, at least technically. In that way, Boulle is also suggesting that certain controlling social elements in our human society hold us back, much like the orangutans in the ape society in Boulle's book, retarding our intellectual and technical growth, etc. Again, it's even suggested in the book that when the chimpanzees are given more freedom, which had been the case for the decades before Ulysse arrived, then their invention and discoveries moved forward. He's arguing that us humans are being held back because we are statically divided socially and intellectually, with our thoughts and ideas being dulled and not allowed to flourish by various controlling forces in society.


Graham

.html<.html

Virgil comments that Mandemus was his teacher when he was a boy. At the end of Battle, Mandemus says that he had lived in the armory for 27 years. So Battle takes place at least 27 years after the end of Conquest in 1991. While 27 years is still a very short time frame, since Lisa says 'no' at the end of Conquest it can be assumed that Apes were just learning to speak at that time and not totally inconceivable that almost 3 decades later they all would be able to talk.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>
> Well, if the rebellion occurred when Cesaer was 20 that was in 1993. And if Battle occurred when he had a young son about 10 years later after the nuclear war, then the apes had all learned a huge amount in a very short time after 1993! Despite the fact that Virgil had been a teacher of others many years before!
>
> And did the nuclear war have something to do with the rebellion??
> Dave S
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@...> wrote:

>
> Oh, I should probably mention that I think you might be mis-remembering the stuff about the memory regression "machines".

Well, yes, "machines" is probably the wrong word for a process. Still, it's not as if that minor quibble makes the point invalid or anything.

>
> The memory regression was accomplished by a combination of the application of electricity to the exposed brain of the subject by way of a simple generator, transformers, and electrodes (which was a process apparently developed in the old days by Soror's human scientists) and some sort of chemical agent concocted by Helius. We don't know whether Helius relied on genius or chance in developing his new chemical formula.

Mind you, a lot of inventiveness relies on luck as well as genius. ;) The point is that the apes discovered something new not through pure mimicry.

I still think that Boulle wasn't simply saying that ape society was purely imitative as a whole, but that the way it was structured didn't allow for invention (or very little). In the book, it's clear that not all apes equally ape, some are more inventive and radical than others, but that's suppressed by those with a vested interest in keeping society static. Once some intellectual freedoms were conceded from the orangutans, allowing the chimpanzees more of a say in scientific and theoretical matters, then things started moving a bit faster (as mentioned in the book). So in my mind, I do think that Helius did discover something through study and invention... and maybe a little luck thrown in, too.


Graham

.html<.html

They could start the movie with "Escape". Mineo literally considered that the low point of his career, having to wear makeup and play a monkey and not even be recognized. They could open with that and do a flashback showing his early success. Five years later he was happy where his career was, he was doing a play he liked (directed by the guy Franco plays) and was going to direct his first movie. So in that sense it would show triumph. Then he gets murdered but that's the way it goes. At least he died when he was in a good place in his life.
Plus it would just rock if they started with "Escape". It's good visually, especially if they get someone who knows how to do the Chambers makeup. And Franco is IN a POTA movie and the first movie he directed was called "The Ape". It would be a blast if he could get Andy Serkis to play Cornelius/Roddy.


From: johnroche49
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 2:19 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Franco's Sal Mineo movie rolling



It WOULD actually be interesting if they did cover Escape--it was seen as a kind of nadir to his career, but I, personally, think his performance works well---Milo is a vibrant character.His freaking out with the make-up could be a good scene----sitting in the make-up chair could let him ponder his downfall.There's a feature in Total Film this month about Screen US Presidents--mostly boring.Made me wonder has there ever been a more intelligent, weighty, portrayal of the moral dilemmas faced by a US President than William Windom's exchanges with Hasslein--that's really crisp, though provoking stuff.But then, that's what Apes does.John,Scrolls.

Perhaps, but I think that the division of labor by species in the novel has more to do with Boulle's feelings about the characteristics of the social classes here on Earth. I think Boulle is suggesting that bureaucrats are listless and unimagitive like orangutans, the working classes are uneducated brutes like gorillas, and the intelligentsia are inquisitive like chimpanzees. Boulle actually seems to be endorsing class stereotypes, rather than warning us against them (he was European, afterall, if I may employ a common American stereotype).

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@> wrote:
>
> > But my point is that Boulle was making a comment on the intellectual laziness and ennui of his fellow man in his novel by metaphorically equating us to the apes. It is quite clear that despite the occasional advances of the chimps, he is postulating a stagnant society that is merely imitating what has gone before, which is what he feared our society was in danger of becoming.
> >
>
>
> I think it's a bit more complicated and nuanced than that general point (the satire and irony in Boulle's book isn't lost on me). I feel that he's also suggesting an issue with the static division of labour in ape society, with different apes being set aside different social and intellectual tasks, and that static division of labour actually hampering that society. The orangutans' bureaucratic, pedantic and conservative nature keeping ape society back, at the expense of the chimpanzees, who given the chance would lead their society forward, at least technically. In that way, Boulle is also suggesting that certain controlling social elements in our human society hold us back, much like the orangutans in the ape society in Boulle's book, retarding our intellectual and technical growth, etc. Again, it's even suggested in the book that when the chimpanzees are given more freedom, which had been the case for the decades before Ulysse arrived, then their invention and discoveries moved forward. He's arguing that us humans are being held back because we are statically divided socially and intellectually, with our thoughts and ideas being dulled and not allowed to flourish by various controlling forces in society.
>
>
> Graham
>

Not only talk but capable of abstract thinking and self consciousness! Meaning going beyond mimickry. I had thought the timespan was only around 10 years.
In any case what did the rebellion have to do with the nuclear war?
Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "jamesa1102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
>
> Virgil comments that Mandemus was his teacher when he was a boy. At the
> end of Battle, Mandemus says that he had lived in the armory for 27
> years. So Battle takes place at least 27 years after the end of Conquest
> in 1991. While 27 years is still a very short time frame, since Lisa
> says 'no' at the end of Conquest it can be assumed that Apes were just
> learning to speak at that time and not totally inconceivable that almost
> 3 decades later they all would be able to talk.
>

I suppose there is room to suggest that the apes from Ashlar discovered the ape society on Earth and brought a group to Earth with Thade, thereby unifying the story of POTA 2001 with the original films. After all, Star Trek has shown that there are more than one humanoid civilization, and they come into contact, so why not apes? <smile >
Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@...> wrote:
>
> I agree completely. It's the main thing that fascinates me about RISE. CONQUEST was my least favorite of the original series, and my initial thought that RISE might be something of a remake of that film left me a bit cold. When I learned of the medical research aspect of the new film's plot, my interest level rose considerably.
>
> - Clark
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@> wrote:
> >
> > The biological research stuff in Boulle kinda reflects into "Rise", where the ape rebellion starts.
>

Yikes! The new breed of journalism.

Thanks to Al for the links.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc6XxzKY050

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNdGvUHsMhI

Mendez says to Kolp, 'If they shoot it ends 12 years of peace', thus it was 12 years since the end of the war that destroyed the city. That doesn't preclude war that lasted 15 years or more after Conquest.

For one possible explaination of all of this, take a look at Ape City Chronicles: http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/ACC.htm.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave" <davesbatene@...> wrote:
>
> Not only talk but capable of abstract thinking and self consciousness! Meaning going beyond mimickry. I had thought the timespan was only around 10 years.
> In any case what did the rebellion have to do with the nuclear war?
> Dave S.
>
>

CONQUEST was fine, if a bit heavy handed, as a metaphor for racial relations. But there were a lot of films at the time that I thought did a better job of exploring racial relations.

The reason I didn't care that much about it was because I was more interested in the ape society of the future established in the first two films. ESCAPE had the novelty of being a mirror image of the first film, and BATTLE showed us the beginnings of ape society, but CONQUEST was just about how nasty humans can be.

In addition, I didn't like the cheap looking monkey suits and lower production values of CONQUEST. And fan speculations aside, the leap from primitive apes in ESCAPE to the more human-like apes in CONQUEST was too jarring for me.

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Eric Payton <ursuszaiuscaesar@...> wrote:
>
> Conquest was your least favorite? Wow. Some of us see it as the best sequel. I
> think only the original has better social commentary.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Well, if you read too much into it, it kind of ruins the central conceit of calling the book Planet of the "Apes", which is a play on the verb "to ape". I also think Boulle was pretty much a pessimist, so it's doubtful that he was leaving a glimmer of hope for the future of ape society. Just my opinion, of course.

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
> I still think that Boulle wasn't simply saying that ape society was purely imitative as a whole, but that the way it was structured didn't allow for invention (or very little). In the book, it's clear that not all apes equally ape, some are more inventive and radical than others, but that's suppressed by those with a vested interest in keeping society static. Once some intellectual freedoms were conceded from the orangutans, allowing the chimpanzees more of a say in scientific and theoretical matters, then things started moving a bit faster (as mentioned in the book). So in my mind, I do think that Helius did discover something through study and invention... and maybe a little luck thrown in, too.
>
>
> Graham
>

Now we are in the age of Avatar digitalized costume design for RISE. Not real plain masks! Alas......

Dave S.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@...> wrote:
>
> CONQUEST was fine, if a bit heavy handed, as a metaphor for racial relations. But there were a lot of films at the time that I thought did a better job of exploring racial relations.
>
> The reason I didn't care that much about it was because I was more interested in the ape society of the future established in the first two films. ESCAPE had the novelty of being a mirror image of the first film, and BATTLE showed us the beginnings of ape society, but CONQUEST was just about how nasty humans can be.
>
> In addition, I didn't like the cheap looking monkey suits and lower production values of CONQUEST. And fan speculations aside, the leap from primitive apes in ESCAPE to the more human-like apes in CONQUEST was too jarring for me.
>
> - Clark
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Eric Payton <ursuszaiuscaesar@> wrote:
> >
> > Conquest was your least favorite? Wow. Some of us see it as the best sequel. I
> > think only the original has better social commentary.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

In a message dated 6/17/2011 9:46:47 AM Central Daylight Time,
davesbatene@... writes:

> In any case what did the rebellion have to do with the nuclear war?
>

Nothing... The nuclear war was human nations fighting each other, not apes
and humans nuking it out...</HTML>

I always took that line to mean 12 years of peace between the mutants and
the apes...



In a message dated 6/17/2011 10:14:08 AM Central Daylight Time,
JamesA1102@... writes:

> Mendez says to Kolp, 'If they shoot it ends 12 years of peace', thus it
> was 12 years since the end of the war that destroyed the city.

</HTML>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@...> wrote:

>
> Well, if you read too much into it, it kind of ruins the central conceit of calling the book Planet of the "Apes", which is a play on the verb "to ape". I also think Boulle was pretty much a pessimist, so it's doubtful that he was leaving a glimmer of hope for the future of ape society. Just my opinion, of course.
>
> - Clark

Well, the pessimism was certainly in the Boulle book, but more directed towards humanity than anything else (who would be the ones reading the book ;) ). However, even the "glimmer of hope" that was the Enlightenment didn't solve all of humanity's problems; we could always go into another Dark Ages, even with our history of innovation.

As for the title of the book, it's more of a warning that humanity could well find the tables overturned in who's the dominant species than anything like a mere play on words. Naturally, there is "to ape" in the book, but it's not as simple as a blanket term applied equally to all apes (which the book clearly doesn't equally apply). The book is more concerned, though, in suggesting that if humanity remains arrogant of its position and doesn't intellectually advance, then something else might take its place: a planet of the apes.


Graham

The international "Rise of the POTA" trailer has surfaced. Has more story points to it, as did Fox's international trailer for "X-Men". I guess they think we Americans are dummies (no comment!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1gcndxHSXI

Yeah, but he had hope that things were getting better. The book says he felt he was heading for a career revival. At the least he was doing work he was excited about, which might be why Franco is interested. He's interested in artists.
Here's an interview with Franco about his new film on Hart Crane that premieres this month. He also talks a little about "Rise":

http://www.jewishjournal.com/the_ticket/item/james_franco_q_a_his_film_on_tortured_gay_poet_hart_crane_20110615/


From: Haristas@...
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 8:18 PM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Franco's Sal Mineo movie rolling






At least he died when he was in a good place in his life.


Did you read the bio? Mineo was not in a good place at the end of his life. He had little career left, the play he was in was only a moderate success, he had little money and was living pretty much hand to mouth -- which was mostly his own fault -- and before he drove his used car home to his modest apartment on the night he was murdered, he stopped at a convenience store to buy a pack of cigarettes and his dinner -- a package of cup cakes.

Yeah, the drama comes through even in a choppy trailer with bad music.


From: Haristas@...
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 8:35 PM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: new "Rise" trailer with more story



That's the best trailer yet.







-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff K. <veetus@...>
To: pota <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 6:23 pm
Subject: [pota] new "Rise" trailer with more story



The international "Rise of the POTA" trailer has surfaced. Has more story points to it, as did Fox's international trailer for "X-Men". I guess they think we Americans are dummies (no comment!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1gcndxHSXI

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one. I believe Boulle was solely concerned with the current intellectual state of human society. I don't believe that the book has much to do with warnings against human arrogance, nor do I think that Boulle was seriously suggesting that we might be surplanted by any other species. He was warning that we were in danger of becoming no better than apes if we continued what he saw as our intellectual decline. This is demonstrated by the fate of Professor Antelle.

I would agree, however, that it's a darn good story. I think it's proven to have a resonance that Boulle didn't foresee.

- Clark

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "gort65" <gort65@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "cjh5801" <cjh5801@> wrote:
> >
> > Well, if you read too much into it, it kind of ruins the central conceit of calling the book Planet of the "Apes", which is a play on the verb "to ape". I also think Boulle was pretty much a pessimist, so it's doubtful that he was leaving a glimmer of hope for the future of ape society. Just my opinion, of course.
> >
> > - Clark
>
> Well, the pessimism was certainly in the Boulle book, but more directed towards humanity than anything else (who would be the ones reading the book ;) ). However, even the "glimmer of hope" that was the Enlightenment didn't solve all of humanity's problems; we could always go into another Dark Ages, even with our history of innovation.
>
> As for the title of the book, it's more of a warning that humanity could well find the tables overturned in who's the dominant species than anything like a mere play on words. Naturally, there is "to ape" in the book, but it's not as simple as a blanket term applied equally to all apes (which the book clearly doesn't equally apply). The book is more concerned, though, in suggesting that if humanity remains arrogant of its position and doesn't intellectually advance, then something else might take its place: a planet of the apes.
>
>
> Graham
>

Is the yahoo age restriction thing I have to go through based on biological or mental age? If biological, I'm well legal, if mental then I'm worried that 'mental age 7' may be too young.I wouldn't want to be exposed to anything upsetting for us young 'uns.John, Scrolls.

Ieageely followed the link, but it's been removed?Ghaaahhhhhhh!!!!!John, Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Yeah, the drama comes through even in a choppy trailer with bad music.
>
>
> From: Haristas@...
> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 8:35 PM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [pota] Re: new "Rise" trailer with more story
>
>
>
> That's the best trailer yet.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff K. <veetus@...>
> To: pota <pota@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2011 6:23 pm
> Subject: [pota] new "Rise" trailer with more story
>
>
>
> The international "Rise of the POTA" trailer has surfaced. Has more story points to it, as did Fox's international trailer for "X-Men". I guess they think we Americans are dummies (no comment!).
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1gcndxHSXI
>

That's almost too cool an idea to even dream about!It WOULD be insanely cool if they did that, though.I would imagine that an actor who was almost the definitive pretty boy would have trouble hiding his face.Still, in spite of all, I think it's a wonderful performance.If they had the imagination to open on a chimp face and work back, that would be excellent.Which is why it can't happen.John, Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> They could start the movie with "Escape". Mineo literally considered that the low point of his career, having to wear makeup and play a monkey and not even be recognized. They could open with that and do a flashback showing his early success. Five years later he was happy where his career was, he was doing a play he liked (directed by the guy Franco plays) and was going to direct his first movie. So in that sense it would show triumph. Then he gets murdered but that's the way it goes. At least he died when he was in a good place in his life.
> Plus it would just rock if they started with "Escape". It's good visually, especially if they get someone who knows how to do the Chambers makeup. And Franco is IN a POTA movie and the first movie he directed was called "The Ape". It would be a blast if he could get Andy Serkis to play Cornelius/Roddy.
>
>

> The international "Rise of the POTA" trailer has surfaced. Has
> more story points to it, as did Fox's international trailer for
> "X-Men". I guess they think we Americans are dummies (no comment!).

That's been true for years....

> http://www.youtube.com/watch v=k1gcndxHSXI

Since that's been removed, you can also find it on ComingSoon.net:

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=78748

Hunter