.html

>>Yeah. 3978 is correct. 3955 is a goof up. How this goof happened,

and why it wasn't corrected and then perpetuated in the further sequels is a baffling mystery.

But make no mistake -- because it's in PLANET and the "canon" of PLANET supercedes the other films -- the story of Taylor on the Planet of the Apes happened in 3978 -- period. <<

>>3978 vs. 3955, does it really matter? <<

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>>So, along with many other things, such as the year being 3955,

Cornelius and Zira not being in jail, the geography being mixed up, the sudden appearence of an Ape Army and General Ursus, etc., etc., BENEATH is really less a seamless continuation of PLANET's story, and more a sequel based on the previous movie. <<
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But does it really matter? The point is that it is 2,000 years in the future so 3978 or 3955 really doesn't matter that much. It is a minor detail that really doesn't change the core of the story at all.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
> So, does that mean that if you recommend watching the first PLANET OF THE APES movie to someone who's never seen any APES before, you must preface it with, "Oh, when you see the "Earth Date" as 3978 AD at the beginning of the movie, it's really 3955. I'll tell you why later." ????
>
> If so, what a ridiculous and unjustified thing to do to a classic SF film.
>

Great explaination Chris! And remember Taylor's line that it was 2,000 give or take a decade. So maybe he knew the clock wasn't 100% accurate in the water.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, lawford42@... wrote:
>
> I always thought this was the simplest thing to explain. Brent took an
> "Earth time reading just BEFORE reentry" and came up with 3955, and NASA
> scientists subjecting Taylor's ship to "microscopic scrutiny" in ESCAPE
> confirmed that date. In PLANET, Taylor's ship crashed landed in the water
> so it's very easy to figure the chronometer was damaged. It could have
> corrected itself when Milo was working on the ship, or when in orbit at
> the end of BENEATH.
>
> And before anyone brings it up, the 3950 reference in BATTLE was just a
> post-production error, much like Dehn using 3955 was a preproduction
> error. Not like he could run down to his local video store and rent the
> movie.
>
>
> Chris L.
>
>
>
> "Haristas@..." Haristas@... wrote:
>
> >>Yeah. 3978 is correct. 3955 is a goof up. How this goof happened, and
> why it wasn't corrected and then perpetuated in the further sequels is a
> baffling mystery.
>
> But make no mistake -- because it's in PLANET and the "canon" of PLANET
> supercedes the other films -- the story of Taylor on the Planet of the
> Apes happened in 3978 -- period. <<
>
>
> "jamesa1102" JamesA1102@... wrote:
>
> >>3978 vs. 3955, does it really matter? <<
>

You know as well as I do that what Paul Dehn said goes, and he said 3955.


From: jamesa1102
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 3:42 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that English




Great explaination Chris! And remember Taylor's line that it was 2,000 give or take a decade. So maybe he knew the clock wasn't 100% accurate in the water.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, lawford42@... wrote:
>
> I always thought this was the simplest thing to explain. Brent took an
> "Earth time reading just BEFORE reentry" and came up with 3955, and NASA
> scientists subjecting Taylor's ship to "microscopic scrutiny" in ESCAPE
> confirmed that date. In PLANET, Taylor's ship crashed landed in the water
> so it's very easy to figure the chronometer was damaged. It could have
> corrected itself when Milo was working on the ship, or when in orbit at
> the end of BENEATH.
>
> And before anyone brings it up, the 3950 reference in BATTLE was just a
> post-production error, much like Dehn using 3955 was a preproduction
> error. Not like he could run down to his local video store and rent the
> movie.
>
>
> Chris L.
>
>
>
> "Haristas@..." Haristas@... wrote:
>
> >>Yeah. 3978 is correct. 3955 is a goof up. How this goof happened, and
> why it wasn't corrected and then perpetuated in the further sequels is a
> baffling mystery.
>
> But make no mistake -- because it's in PLANET and the "canon" of PLANET
> supercedes the other films -- the story of Taylor on the Planet of the
> Apes happened in 3978 -- period. <<
>
>
> "jamesa1102" JamesA1102@... wrote:
>
> >>3978 vs. 3955, does it really matter? <<
>

Here's a groovy article about the ape sounds used in "Rise of the ...", well, you know.

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/11/chimpanzee-vocalizations/

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:

>
>
>
>
> But does it really matter? The point is that it is 2,000 years in the future so 3978 or 3955 really doesn't matter that much. It is a minor detail that really doesn't change the core of the story at all.
>
>
> How can you say this doesn't matter when you insist that because RISE doesn't have Taylor's ship taking off in 1972, as is indicated by the time clocks in PLANET, therefore RISE can't be called a "prequel" to PLANET but instead is a reboot and completely unrelated to PLANET?
>
> It seems to me that these things do matter. And, by the way, 3955 isn't two thousand years in the future from 1972!
>
> If anyone is going to insist that 3978 is wrong, and that PLANET actually takes place in 3955, then what you're really saying, in its totality, is that BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES is a more important movie in the POTA franchise than PLANET.
>
> WOW! That's really something.
>

woah .... no way is beneath more important than planet , planet is the first and best , as for the launch of the astronauts in rise , i dont remember the film mentioning it was taylor , i guess it was just put in as an easter egg (as many where ) for the film . i dont know if RISE is a prequel or what , it certainly doesnt follow what cornelius tells us in escape , but one thing for sure its a zillion times better than BURTON>S escapade . i may throw a spanner in the works here but does it matter about the dates ???

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, jessica rotich <jessicarotich@...> wrote:

>
> I would love a book of just random ape photos as well!
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Jeff K. <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> > I would love to have a book with just pages of random stuff like that.
> > There was a book for Batman like that. Looks like there's enough stuff for
> > a POTA version.
> >
> >
> > From: jessica rotich
> > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 10:35 AM
> > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [pota] Re: Go for a tumbl
> >
> >
> >
> > Gary Cook put that together.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

that would be annawesome book if somebody made one

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>>Which just goes to confirm how in general sequels are inferior to

the originals. About the only exception to this rule is BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN and GODFATHER PART TWO, and you could probably add THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. <.html

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
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.html

>>So, does that mean that if you recommend watching the first PLANET

OF THE APES movie to someone who's never seen any APES before, you must preface it with, "Oh, when you see the "Earth Date" as 3978 AD at the beginning of the movie, it's really 3955. I'll tell you why later." ????

If so, what a ridiculous and unjustified thing to do to a classic SF film. <<

>>I always thought this was the simplest thing to explain. Brent took

an "Earth time reading just BEFORE reentry" and came up with 3955, and NASA scientists subjecting Taylor's ship to "microscopic scrutiny" in ESCAPE confirmed that date. In PLANET, Taylor's ship crashed landed in the water so it's very easy to figure the chronometer was damaged. It could have corrected itself when Milo was working on the ship, or when in orbit at the end of BENEATH.  <<<.html

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
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.html

 

It's a shame that putting up an Ape's House

on the Fox Ranch isn't as easy as a M*A*S*H

tent. Though interior set dressing is easier.

But I understand...you have to take lots

of pictures to get the really good ones.

 

 

In a message dated 11/12/2011 9:35:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, jessicarotich@... writes:

I am hiring a photographer to be dedicated to me and my whims.

 

Jess.

<.html

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Nothing is over! You just don't turn it off!  You ask me, I didn't ask you!

But seriously.  Money will roll in from PPV and DVD sales. And Andy

Serkis is signed for the sequel.  Which I trust will be Bigger & Better.

Now that there a 2, the franchise is back!  I look forward to more.

But how do they put surprise into it?  Now it's chronological?

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 11/13/2011 4:24:41 P.M. Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

It's over man, it's over.

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I know!  What's with all this magic & super natural BS?

Sci-Fi has actually come to pass in our lifetimes.

People have walked on the moon!  Everyone has

phones, way cooler than Star Trek communicators.

Maybe we haven cracked the time travel thing, but . . .

I say science trumps their hocus-pocus every time!

 

 

In a message dated 11/13/2011 4:24:41 P.M. Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

Why is the world against me? Why do "Harry Potter" fans have it all while POTA fans have to struggle every day? It's not fair.

<.html

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Hey!  I saw Demetrius the other day.

Admittedly, not exactly the caliber of

The Robe, but still...A fine flick in it's

own right. And Jay Robinson's Caligula

is not to be missed!  Take that Malcolm!  

The :Other" McDowall.  Just hearing him

say "Tribune Gallio" beats anything he's done.

 

In a message dated 11/13/2011 8:05:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

DEMETRIUS AND THE GLADIATORS is to THE ROBE.

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Not exactly a Timex, is it?

I hate those roller digitals!  Every time it's off

Daylight Savings I have to reset the clock on

the oven.  And the knob's bust, so I have to

use pliers!  I always get six hours in before

I realize it will roll backwards.  Damnit!

 

In a message dated 11/14/2011 5:45:13 A.M. Central Standard Time, JamesA1102@... writes:

maybe he knew the clock wasn't 100% accurate in the water.

<.html

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It is.  I won't say better, but good in a different way.

They little people is a bit to 3 monkeys for me.

But the music is way better as is the story.

The acting. Pretty much everything, but

the sense of foreboding in Frankenstein.

 

 

In a message dated 11/15/2011 1:53:41 A.M. Central Standard Time, lawford42@... writes:

but did you seriously just say that THE BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN was better than the original?

<.html

.html<.html

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:

>
>
> How can you say this doesn't matter when you insist that because RISE doesn't have Taylor's ship taking off in 1972, as is indicated by the time clocks in PLANET, therefore RISE can't be called a "prequel" to PLANET but instead is a reboot and completely unrelated to PLANET?

I take your point but it is a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, there are other reasons why the ship seen in Rise is not the same as Taylor's.

>
> It seems to me that these things do matter. And, by the way, 3955 isn't two thousand years in the future from 1972!
>

Why does it matter? Does the year, whether 3978 or 3955 in anyway change the core story being told in Planet. It doesn't to me.

The tiny little people in the covered glass were mutants!


From: lawford42@...
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 11:36 PM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that Eng




I'd add THE DARK KNIGHT, SPIDER-MAN 2, and X2, but did you seriously just say that THE BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN was better than the original? If you truly believe that, you have no business slagging off BENEATH or any of the other sequels. None. BRIDE is a perfect of taking what was right about an original film and doing the exact opposite. I mean, the tiny little people in the covered glass? Case closed right then and there.

An answer to a hypothetical questions ("...if PLANET OF THE APES only had BENEATH as a sequel") would itself only be hypothetical. All the films- PLANET included- are remembered as much as they are because of the POTA 'phenomena' that happened. There's way too many variables to answer the question simply, and I'm not about to spend the next three hours exploring them all within a written response.


Chris L.



"Haristas@..." <Haristas@...> wrote:

>>Which just goes to confirm how in general sequels are inferior to the originals. About the only exception to this rule is BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN and GODFATHER PART TWO, and you could probably add THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

Do you think that if PLANET OF THE APES only had BENEATH as a sequel -- now, we're on another timeline here and the rest of the APES series never happened -- if there only was BENEATH, do you think it would be much remembered today? I'm pretty sure PLANET would still be remembered, but BENEATH? Probably about as well-remembered as DEMETRIUS AND THE GLADIATORS is to THE ROBE. <<

.html

Reminder from:		pota Yahoo! Group
Title:		PLANET OF THE APES
Date:		Tuesday November 15, 2011
Time:		6:00 pm - 8:00 pm
Location:		OUTERMAX
Notes:		Crashing into the future, stranded astronauts must fight for survival on a planet ruled by apes!
Get reminders on your mobile, Yahoo! Messenger, and email. Edit reminder options

Copyright © 2011  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | <.html

You can personally ignore what came after when watching the original but to the world at large "Planet" leads into "Beneath", etc. 3978 will become 3955, Taylor will become Col. Taylor, the lightning will become mutant produced. Saying the original is it's own thing won't get you very far.


From: lawford42@...
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 11:14 PM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that Eng




It means that if you recommend the first film and the person enjoys it enough to want to see the sequels and then pays enough attention to those to a point where they notice the date discrepancy, you could- if you so chose- mention the fact that there's a pretty simple way to account for it. Both for how it actually happened (no home video for Dehn to rent) and an explanation that makes sense within the facts established in the films (what I wrote below).

I'm curious though as to why you'd be compelled to bring it up in the first place.


Chris L.



"Haristas@..." <Haristas@...> wrote:

>>So, does that mean that if you recommend watching the first PLANET OF THE APES movie to someone who's never seen any APES before, you must preface it with, "Oh, when you see the "Earth Date" as 3978 AD at the beginning of the movie, it's really 3955. I'll tell you why later." ????

If so, what a ridiculous and unjustified thing to do to a classic SF film. <<


I wrote:

>>I always thought this was the simplest thing to explain. Brent took an "Earth time reading just BEFORE reentry" and came up with 3955, and NASA scientists subjecting Taylor's ship to "microscopic scrutiny" in ESCAPE confirmed that date. In PLANET, Taylor's ship crashed landed in the water so it's very easy to figure the chronometer was damaged. It could have corrected itself when Milo was working on the ship, or when in orbit at the end of BENEATH. <<

did you seriously just say that THE BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN was better than the original?

Being as much if not more of a film buff than just a POTA fan, yes, I did "seriously" say that, BECAUSE, it's generally said.  Try reading a bunch of film history books and maybe you'll discover this too.

 

Do I personally believe BRIDE is better than the original?  No, I don't.  To me they are both equally excellent, but there's large inconsistencies between them and one thing I don't look at them as is a seamless story divided into two parts.

 

Just because some literary entity, be it a novel, play, or the story within a motion picture, gets a sequel, or series of sequels, doesn't mean that the original story doesn't come to an actual conclusion in its original form.

 

The story in the original POTA film comes to a conclusion with Taylor before The Statue of Liberty.  That's the actually literary reality of what it is.  The four other films in the POTA series are separate stories based on the same premise with many of the same characters.  It is not one continuous story that requires of the viewer that elements within each film need revising and rewriting in order for the entire series to conform to this false view of the series in its entirety.  The "phenomena" of POTA's popularity does not negate this actuality.

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: lawford42 <lawford42@...>
To: pota <pota@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Nov 15, 2011 2:53 am
Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that Eng

 

I'd add THE DARK KNIGHT, SPIDER-MAN 2, and X2, but did you seriously just say that THE BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN was better than the original? If you truly believe that, you have no business slagging off BENEATH or any of the other sequels. None. BRIDE is a perfect of taking what was right about an original film and doing the exact opposite. I mean, the tiny little people in the covered glass? Case closed right then and there.

 

An answer to a hypothetical questions ("...if PLANET OF THE APES only had BENEATH as a sequel") would itself only be hypothetical. All the films- PLANET included- are remembered as much as they are because of the POTA 'phenomena' that happened. There's way too many variables to answer the question simply, and I'm not about to spend the next three hours exploring them all within a written response.

 

 

Chris L.

 

 

 

"Haristas@..." <Haristas@...> wrote:

 

>>Which just goes to confirm how in general sequels are inferior to the originals. About the only exception to this rule is BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN and GODFATHER PART TWO, and you could probably add THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

 

Do you think that if PLANET OF THE APES only had BENEATH as a sequel -- now, we're on another timeline here and the rest of the APES series never happened -- if there only was BENEATH, do you think it would be much remembered today? I'm pretty sure PLANET would still be remembered, but BENEATH? Probably about as well-remembered as DEMETRIUS AND THE GLADIATORS is to THE ROBE. <<

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
consumerproducts.com

OOOOHHHH! Kepp calm, Keep calm, John M.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
>
> You know as well as I do that what Paul Dehn said goes, and he said 3955.
>
>
>
>
> I'm also reminded of how so many want to believe that Cornelius is lying in his story of ape origins in ESCAPE, that he MUST be lying in order for it to fit into the timeloop view that Dehn in an interview someplace said was what he intended, that the films form a cycle.
>
> But do you seriously see a pivotal scene in ESCAPE as just a bunch of B.S.? Did Paul Dehn when he was writing ESCAPE -- having to basically invent this stuff -- intend that it really wasn't what he was having his character say? Was director Don Taylor and actor Roddy McDowall in on the "conspiracy" too?
>
> No, it's ridiculous. Paul Dehn obviously meant every word he wrote in ESCAPE. That his pre-history scenario in ESCAPE doesn't jibe with his own timeloop view of the series as it would eventually play out is only proof of the ad hoc nature of the APES series itself, that it's riddle with plot holes and contradictions, and that it's not really a seamless saga.
>
> You can end watching the APES series with ESCAPE, imagining BENEATH as a bad dream, and you get just as much out of it if you NEVER bother watching CONQUEST and BATTLE. They really add nothing to the mythos, except to muddy things.
>
> -- Rory
>

It looks like Tim Burton is interested in directing "Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children", a project being developed by Fox and Chernin Entertainment, who are also the guardians of "Rise of the POTA" and it's sequels. Burton in the hen house!

http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/tim-burton-circles-miss-peregrines-home-for-peculiar-children/#more-195312

Or you accept that Cornelius and Zira changed things when they went back to 1973. The 5 films can work as one story. I wouldn't assume they are lying about what they know as the past because they seem serious about it (the way Zira reacts when Cornelius mentions the word "No"). But it's possible that what was passed down as history could be wrong after centuries. In that sense "Rise" could fit (as long as Taylor isn't in the "Icarus").
It might be interesting if in one of the "Rise" sequels the apes create a "slave revolt" myth because escaping from science labs and zoos is too embarrassing.


From: Haristas@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 7:14 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that English






You know as well as I do that what Paul Dehn said goes, and he said 3955.



I'm also reminded of how so many want to believe that Cornelius is lying in his story of ape origins in ESCAPE, that he MUST be lying in order for it to fit into the timeloop view that Dehn in an interview someplace said was what he intended, that the films form a cycle.

But do you seriously see a pivotal scene in ESCAPE as just a bunch of B.S.? Did Paul Dehn when he was writing ESCAPE -- having to basically invent this stuff -- intend that it really wasn't what he was having his character say? Was director Don Taylor and actor Roddy McDowall in on the "conspiracy" too?

No, it's ridiculous. Paul Dehn obviously meant every word he wrote in ESCAPE. That his pre-history scenario in ESCAPE doesn't jibe with his own timeloop view of the series as it would eventually play out is only proof of the ad hoc nature of the APES series itself, that it's riddle with plot holes and contradictions, and that it's not really a seamless saga.

You can end watching the APES series with ESCAPE, imagining BENEATH as a bad dream, and you get just as much out of it if you NEVER bother watching CONQUEST and BATTLE. They really add nothing to the mythos, except to muddy things.

-- Rory

Or one can accept the stated intent of the screenwriter and see the inconsistencies for what they are and not obsess over what are really minor details. Again while I consider 3978 to be the correct date, I don't really care about the 3955 inconsistency. It really doesn't matter to me.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Or you accept that Cornelius and Zira changed things when they went back to 1973. The 5 films can work as one story. I wouldn't assume they are lying about what they know as the past because they seem serious about it (the way Zira reacts when Cornelius mentions the word "No"). But it's possible that what was passed down as history could be wrong after centuries. In that sense "Rise" could fit (as long as Taylor isn't in the "Icarus").
> It might be interesting if in one of the "Rise" sequels the apes create a "slave revolt" myth because escaping from science labs and zoos is too embarrassing.
>

I agree with you that there is a hierarchy to canon. Planet comes first and have always considered 3978 to be the correct date. After Planet comes the sequels and then the TV series. After that are the novelizations, and then licensed comics and books. Last would be the promotional materials like the Heralds.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
>
> But, I'm someone with a very critical eye, and I simply can't ignore that which I see as artistically inferior. BENEATH is inferior to PLANET, therefore everything in PLANET is more "canon" than anything in BENEATH. That's why I'm "compelled" to bring this up because this thread started as a rumination on what is "canon," remember?
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:

>
>
> I'm also reminded of how so many want to believe that Cornelius is lying in his story of ape origins in ESCAPE, that he MUST be lying in order for it to fit into the timeloop view that Dehn in an interview someplace said was what he intended, that the films form a cycle.

I agree with you that I don't believe that C&Z were lying. They were being completely truthful in relating the facts as they knew them.

>
> But do you seriously see a pivotal scene in ESCAPE as just a bunch of B.S.? Did Paul Dehn when he was writing ESCAPE -- having to basically invent this stuff -- intend that it really wasn't what he was having his character say? Was director Don Taylor and actor Roddy McDowall in on the "conspiracy" too?

Again I agree that they weren't lying. But I don't think of it as a pivitol scene. The Zira truth serum scene is the pivotal one.

>
> No, it's ridiculous. Paul Dehn obviously meant every word he wrote in ESCAPE. That his pre-history scenario in ESCAPE doesn't jibe with his own timeloop view of the series as it would eventually play out is only proof of the ad hoc nature of the APES series itself, that it's riddle with plot holes and contradictions, and that it's not really a seamless saga.
>

I agree. He meant every word he wrote in Escape including Cornelius' statement that Apes were speaking english for 2,000 years. He meant every word he wrote in Beneath including that the Mendez dynasty and that the nuclear war happened in the late 20th century.

And Serling and Wilson meant every word that they wrote in Planet including that the human artifacts that Cornelius found come from 2,000 years earlier.

 

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>>If anyone is going to insist that 3978 is wrong, and that PLANET

actually takes place in 3955, then what you're really saying, in its totality, is that BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES is a more important movie in the POTA franchise than PLANET. <<
<.html

The Apes outside Wall St Homepage pic puts me in mind of the scene described by Boulle towards the end of Monkey Planet, where a visit to the Ape Stock Exchange is frighteningly similar to the mad shenanigans that rule our lives today.It's worth looking for.John, Scrolls.

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>> And, by the way, 3955 isn't two thousand years in the future from

1972! <<

<.html

Great point Chris. I would also apply this to when Zaius said that the Sacred Scrolls were written 1,200 years ago. He didn't mean that they were literary written in 2778, just that they were written about 12 centuries earlier.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, lawford42@... wrote:
>
> Any time a character referenced "2000 years", it was really more a
> generalization, or 'painting in broad strokes'- whatever you want to call
> it. Brent mentioned "2000 years ago" to the Mutants, but he didn't
> literally mean that Taylor was from 1955.
>
>
> Chris L.
>
>
>

Believing 3955 is the date doesn't mean you put more importance on "Beneath" or "Escape", it just means those movies exist. You can ignore them all you want when you're watching "Planet" (I don't watch and go, "Oh, that date is really 3955!"). But they exist and the NASA experts confirmed 3955 through microscopic scrutiny. Microscopic scrutiny!


From: lawford42@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 10:42 PM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that Eng




No, they're just saying that Taylor's chronometer was damaged in the crash landing. Don't even remotely see where you connected those particular dots...

Chris L.



"Haristas@..." <Haristas@...> wrote:

>>If anyone is going to insist that 3978 is wrong, and that PLANET actually takes place in 3955, then what you're really saying, in its totality, is that BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES is a more important movie in the POTA franchise than PLANET. <<

Good, then it's settled. "Rise" is a prequel to the original. Who cares if Taylor left in 1972 or if he went to Mars or not.


From: jamesa1102
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:09 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that English




Or one can accept the stated intent of the screenwriter and see the inconsistencies for what they are and not obsess over what are really minor details. Again while I consider 3978 to be the correct date, I don't really care about the 3955 inconsistency. It really doesn't matter to me.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Or you accept that Cornelius and Zira changed things when they went back to 1973. The 5 films can work as one story. I wouldn't assume they are lying about what they know as the past because they seem serious about it (the way Zira reacts when Cornelius mentions the word "No"). But it's possible that what was passed down as history could be wrong after centuries. In that sense "Rise" could fit (as long as Taylor isn't in the "Icarus").
> It might be interesting if in one of the "Rise" sequels the apes create a "slave revolt" myth because escaping from science labs and zoos is too embarrassing.
>

If apes gained "intelligence" I don't think they would stick to being as they are now. They would try new things, as people do. I could see a cult of gorillas trying meat and deciding they like it or want to be different. That they are described as "carnivorous gorillas" in the first place suggests a difference from the norm. We began as vegetarians too.
There's all kinds of scenarios that could happen during the time frame of the apes. Why wouldn't apes kill each other for power as we do? At least the apes as evolved as those in POTA. Some might wonder why they would wear clothes. That's something for the "Rise" sequels to answer. I don't think it's ever been brought up why they start doing that.
The TV show was 3085, I believe.


From: Haristas@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:38 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] New Thread (was Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that English)






Good, then it's settled. "Rise" is a prequel to the original. Who cares if Taylor left in 1972 or if he went to Mars or not.




For each of us, it is what it is. There's things in PLANET that I wish weren't there, like the line about "carnivorous gorillas." There's never going to be such things. Gorillas and orangutans don't eat meat. Chimpanzees DO eat meat, and like it. There was a lot of misunderstanding, or rather things not yet know, about the nature of apes when Boulle wrote his book and later when the films were made. We know now that apes often kill one another, some to the extent that it can actually be called murder. I guess that makes the 6th verse of the 29th Scroll rather hypocritical, but this now opens up a new line of discussion to get us away from this canon stuff.

It's kind of obvious to me that the apes' future society represses any knowledge of their pre-history because the truth could destroy the fabric of their society, but could that also mean that the Lawgiver was the "greatest ape of them all" because he put to an end a savage, barbaric past? Maybe "Ape Shall Not Kill Ape" (one thing from BENEATH that I'm not critical of) became a law because at one time apes were killing apes? Maybe the ape society of 3978 is the repressive one it is not just because the hierarchy wants to keep knowledge of man's one time supremacy from the masses, but also because there was a barbaric era in ape history that must never be returned to. Maybe this was going on in the East Coast, while the West Coast TV series world was happening?

I forget now when the TV series was supposed to take place. What was it?

AAAAHHH! All this talk about dates and meat eaters. If I was to put the Carnivourous Gorillas as a point of discussion, I would just say they(Apes) were pets to the humans who ate at McDonalds and the fossils of dead old beef was from their human masters while the apes stood by eating their fruit. After Conquest alot of answers can be quantified. More questions can be raised also.
The dates, if the sequels are not to be ignored(they did after all create the franchise phenomenom-not POTA68 alone) are just writing errors at the truth level but can easily be explained by ship correction or re-entry clock breaking down from all the forces and slamming on the ground/ocean who knows. Never bothered me because with all that travelling slight changes are bound to happen esp. in those analog days. Yes their were tubes being used and in some cases they are still used today for their purity. Their ruggedness can be in question but what do I know...Relax.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
>
>
> For each of us, it is what it is. There's things in PLANET that I wish weren't there, like the line about "carnivorous gorillas." There's never going to be such things. Gorillas and orangutans don't eat meat. Chimpanzees DO eat meat, and like it. There was a lot of misunderstanding, or rather things not yet know, about the nature of apes when Boulle wrote his book and later when the films were made. We know now that apes often kill one another, some to the extent that it can actually be called murder. I guess that makes the 6th verse of the 29th Scroll rather hypocritical, but this now opens up a new line of discussion to get us away from this canon stuff.
>
> It's kind of obvious to me that the apes' future society represses any knowledge of their pre-history because the truth could destroy the fabric of their society, but could that also mean that the Lawgiver was the "greatest ape of them all" because he put to an end a savage, barbaric past? Maybe "Ape Shall Not Kill Ape" (one thing from BENEATH that I'm not critical of) became a law because at one time apes were killing apes? Maybe the ape society of 3978 is the repressive one it is not just because the hierarchy wants to keep knowledge of man's one time supremacy from the masses, but also because there was a barbaric era in ape history that must never be returned to. Maybe this was going on in the East Coast, while the West Coast TV series world was happening?
>
> I forget now when the TV series was supposed to take place. What was it?
>

Now I'm very curious. Why do you think BENEATH was botched?

Mel

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Why does it matter? Does the year, whether 3978 or 3955 in anyway change the core story being told in Planet. It doesn't to me.
>
> Of course it doesn't change the core story, but it matters to me because it's there and the filmmaker chose to have a closeup of that clock reading 3978 for a reason, and as fans of PLANET we should respect that and not try in any way to erase it, and that's exactly what some fans would do -- if they could.
>
> It matters to me because I have the greatest respect for PLANET. I have almost zero respect for BENEATH -- a botched sequel that never should have happened.
>
> -- Rory
>

.html<.html

I think I said 'one can accept the stated intent of the screenwriter'. The intent of the screenwriters (and producers) of Rise is that it is a reboot.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Good, then it's settled. "Rise" is a prequel to the original. Who cares if Taylor left in 1972 or if he went to Mars or not.
>
>
> From: jamesa1102
> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:09 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that English
>
>
>
>
> Or one can accept the stated intent of the screenwriter and see the inconsistencies for what they are and not obsess over what are really minor details. Again while I consider 3978 to be the correct date, I don't really care about the 3955 inconsistency. It really doesn't matter to me.
>

Thanks John. The pic is from 2008 when Apemania was here promoting the Blu-Ray box set.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "johnroche49" <johnroche49@...> wrote:
>
> The Apes outside Wall St Homepage pic puts me in mind of the scene described by Boulle towards the end of Monkey Planet, where a visit to the Ape Stock Exchange is frighteningly similar to the mad shenanigans that rule our lives today.It's worth looking for.John, Scrolls.
>

I don't want to get into that again. The director said it's a direct prequel and that's good enough for me until further notice. Ultimately it's what Fox agrees on, as, like James Cameron said, they can take their ball and go home. Right now they are probably huddling and deciding what it will be.


From: jamesa1102
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 3:40 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that English




I think I said 'one can accept the stated intent of the screenwriter'. The intent of the screenwriters (and producers) of Rise is that it is a reboot.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Good, then it's settled. "Rise" is a prequel to the original. Who cares if Taylor left in 1972 or if he went to Mars or not.
>
>
> From: jamesa1102
> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 4:09 AM
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [pota] Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that English
>
>
>
>
> Or one can accept the stated intent of the screenwriter and see the inconsistencies for what they are and not obsess over what are really minor details. Again while I consider 3978 to be the correct date, I don't really care about the 3955 inconsistency. It really doesn't matter to me.
>

I think it's fair to say that, when you look at the insanity of lives being determined on whim, rumour and gambling at the world's stock markets,Taylor's 'Madhouse' cry could equally apply to Wall Street, the City in London etc.Chimps could NOT do a worse job! John, Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "jamesa1102" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks John. The pic is from 2008 when Apemania was here promoting the
> Blu-Ray box set.
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "johnroche49" <johnroche49@> wrote:
> >
> > The Apes outside Wall St Homepage pic puts me in mind of the scene
> described by Boulle towards the end of Monkey Planet, where a visit to
> the Ape Stock Exchange is frighteningly similar to the mad shenanigans
> that rule our lives today.It's worth looking for.John, Scrolls.
> >
>

I don't think there's any problem with that. The "Rise" folks seem to be updating with what we know now about apes, science, etc.
And, with due credit, the Burton one did that too. That's why a chimp was the villain.


From: Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:17 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: New Thread (was Re: Why didn't Taylor suspect he was on Earth upon learning that English)






If apes gained "intelligence" I don't think they would stick to being as they are now. They would try new things, as people do. I could see a cult of gorillas trying meat and deciding they like it or want to be different. That they are described as "carnivorous gorillas" in the first place suggests a difference from the norm. We began as vegetarians too.
There's all kinds of scenarios that could happen during the time frame of the apes. Why wouldn't apes kill each other for power as we do? At least the apes as evolved as those in POTA. Some might wonder why they would wear clothes. That's something for the "Rise" sequels to answer. I don't think it's ever been brought up why they start doing that.
The TV show was 3085, I believe.



Well, man has "intelligence" and we still suffer from barbarism in this world. I'm talking about a period of possible ape history that would be like their own "Dark Ages," and sort of a Feudal Japan-like period where the wrong word to the Lord, or, as in the TV series, village Prefect, could get your head cut off... It could be an extrapolation on how real chimpanzee society is, with an alpha male that dominates through physical intimidation. Chimpanzees are not at all like the more sedate gorillas and orangutans, so conflict would arise just out of the apes' dissimilarities.

Understand, I'm saying that Fox's approach to any further APES movies should reflect what we've learned of real ape behavior in the forty years since the original series was made, and something much better, a lot less silly cliched than what was shown in the Burton debacle.

Peter Jackson's Planet of the apes

The Lord of the Apes

In 1975 a young New Zealand boy saw Planet of the Apes and fell in love with it. As he saw the four sequels and the TV series his love of all things POTA grew.
The young boy would one day give the world the Lord of the Rings trilogy but he started film making by trying to make his own sequel to one of his favourite films.
This is the story of how Peter Jackson tried and failed to make a Planet of the Apes movie that would have been the sixth in the series, and a film that we would have wanted to see.
Planet of the Apes not only worked as a sister picture to his other favourite movie "King Kong" but fired his imagination enough to start experimenting in ape prosthetics and even took him and his friend into the world of film making. It seems without this inspiration he may not have gone on to give us such fantastic movies as The Lord of the Rings trilogy, Heavenly Creatures and his re-make of the 1933 classic King Kong.
"I saw Planet of the Apes on TV and was blown away by it. I loved the special effects make-up but I also loved the story. I was already a fan of King Kong-although my fascination is not really with apes and gorillas so much as with a couple of great movies that both happen to have apes in them! Never the less, both films have an intriguing theme in common: that the gap separating humans from apes is far less than we might suppose!"
Peter and his friend Pete O'herne, began sculpting and moulding their own ape masks from plasticine with layers of locally bought latex. They would then cut up old wigs to add the hair. They even went as far as ordering foam latex mixture from Canada and creating "appliances" by cooking it in Jackson's Mothers oven! Footage of this exists and some unpublished photographs. If you look closely at the DVD extras on Lord of the Rings, you will see a "blink or you'll miss it" fully costumed TV gorilla soldier sitting in the Jacksons production office! (Apemania perhaps?)

Many years passed and Jackson slowly made his name along with his wife and writing partner Fran Walsh, as a shlock film maker with the likes of Bad Taste, Meet the Feebles and Braindead, but one idea had stayed with him.

A Sixth Ape Movie.
In October 1992 Jackson, now making a name for himself as a director, was approached by Ken Kamins of 20th Century Fox to have a meeting with producer Harry J. Ufland (Last Temptation of Christ, Night and the City and Michael Jackson's Bad) to pitch his idea for an apes movie. It would be an original story rather than a re-make and Jackson was particularly keen to include Roddy McDowall who was the key ingredient of the apes franchise in Jackson's eyes.
"Fran and I had devised a storyline that continued the ape's saga from where it left off in the fifth movie. We imagined their world being in the midst of an artistic renaissance, which made the ape government very nervous. It was a time of amazing art and we wanted Roddy McDowall to play an elderly chimpanzee that we based a little on Leonardo da Vinci. The plot involved the humans rising in revolt and a half human, half ape central character that was sheltered by the liberal apes, but hunted down by the gorillas."
Producer Harry Ufland was excited enough to arrange a meeting between Peter, Fran and Roddy. At this time Peter also approached Rick Baker and told him of his ape's idea that he was soon to pitch to Fox executives and Rick Baker responded with enthusiasm. Jackson, his co-writer and wife Fran Walsh and producer Harry Ufland, met with Roddy McDowall for lunch in LA in the summer of 92 and McDowall, who had by then read Peter and Fran's treatment for the new apes movie and who was by now in his early sixties, enthused both about the story and the possibility of creating a new ape character that felt like a "comfortable grey-haired version of his first ape, Cornelius"
"We lunched at the Ivy with Roddy, who was very sweet. He had seen and really liked Heavenly Creatures and was kind of excited about the idea of working with us. He said "I had never wanted to be in a Planet of the Apes film again, but I love your idea and Id love you guys to make it. We should do it."
The group then set out to meet with the Fox executives at the Fox Studios.
"Walking from the parking lot to the office where the meeting was to be held, Roddy gave us a running commentary on the history of the studio where he had worked for over fifty years since his early films as a child star. He'd point to a sound stage and say "That's where we shot How green was my valley...."and he'd say, "This was the street that we used for this film...And so-and-so was shot over there..." He was full of amazing memories and in just taking that short walk with him we experienced this fantastic first-hand insight into Hollywood."
The meeting with Fox Executive Tom Jacobson did not go well. When Harry Ufland had previously discussed the possibility of bringing the Apes project to Fox, it had been with Joe Roth, who had now left the studio to work for Disney. Jacobson was certainly interested in a Planet of the Apes movie, but less so in Roddy McDowall – Peter's memory is that he really didn't seem to know anything about the veteran actor or understood his emotional involvement with the film series.
"It went incredibly badly, but in the process we learned a useful lesson in Hollywood politics. Harry Ufland and Joe Roth were good friends and obviously Joe had been happy to help Harry with his Planet of the Apes project. However Tom Jacobson was not committed to any previous discussions that may have taken place. So, when Harry made remarks about Joe having said this or that, he simply looked up and said "Joe is not here anymore...!" And at this point we realised, okay, there are no allies! No matter what Fox think about a Planet of the Apes movie, they are not interested in Harry Ufland being Joe Roth's old buddy and they don't care about Roddy McDowall."And as for us...Heavenly Creatures hadn't been released at this stage, which left us with Bad Taste, Meet the Feebles and Braindead as our films, and they were films that none of those people had seen. So we walked out and somehow, at that meeting, the project died.
When Peter and Fran had left the offices of Fox after pitching their idea for sixth Planet of the Apes movie, it had seemed that that particular door had closed, but with the passing of a few years (and executives) it opened for a second time. Accompanied by producer Ken Kamins, Peter met with two of Fox's senior personnel, Peter Chermin and Tom Rothman, over lunch at the Hotel Bel-Air to discuss his script idea for the apes.
"We re-pitched exactly the same idea to these two high-powered Fox executives who'd never heard it before. Once again it was met with a lot of enthusiasm but when we launched into this long explanation about how they'd spent a lot of money developing a potential Planet of the Apes film-though not with us because we worked on spec and never earned a cent!- and how they already had one or two failed screenplays. We heard of various versions including one by Terry Hayes, who wrote Mad Max 2 AND 3 and went on to write Vertical Limit. Anyway, at the end of this preamble, they said that they'd like to use our story, and have Fran and I write the script and me direct but they also wanted James Cameron to produce it for Arnold Schwarzenegger to star in it. "We have a real commitment" they said, "for this to be a vehicle for Schwarzenegger, why not meet with James Cameron before you leave town and pitch him your ideas? We think as a group you'll make a great team...."
Back at their hotel Peter and Fran discussed the proposition and were of one mind..
"It felt bad. Not because I don't like Cameron or Schwarzenegger, I'm actually a big fan of their films, but Fran and I are incredibly independent spirits, you know, and we are very protective of our work. We thought that if we had James Cameron as the producer and Arnold Schwarzenegger as the star, I would have absolutely no power, and if, for example, there were a conflict with Schwarzenegger then Cameron would be likely to back him rather than me. I didn't know for certain, it was just assumptions, but it didn't feel like a work situation that we should put ourselves into. So we declined to take the meeting and, this time round, it was us who passed on the project. We finally met Jim Cameron in 2005 and we found him to be charming. I couldn't help wondering what might have happened if we'd said "Yes" to the deal..........."
In 1996 Fox approached Jackson again but this time the lawyers killed the deal dead when two other studios were mooted as possible partners in the Jackson Ape movie.
In 1997 Fran and Peter, who by now were becoming players in the film industry and actively involved in the development of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, played with the idea of resurrecting the Apes movie idea as back up project, while they got the Rings trilogy off the ground. The death of Roddy McDowall a few months later caused Peter to lose whatever remnants of interest he had left for the idea.
Fox eventually went with Tim Burton as director and even got Zanuck involved as producer but the result although enjoyable to some, was not what the fans wanted. The make-up and effects design was of course as Rick Baker perfect as you can get but the movie lacked the kind of human/ape story and even the kind of cast that the people and fans of the original franchise had offered.
To think that some executive at Fox had treat Roddy so shamefully and had turned away the team that went on to create Lord of the Rings is saddening to an old ape fan like myself. To have seen a sixth movie as part of the original time line with Roddy giving one last swan (ape?) song would have been magnificent.
Maybe Fran and Peters story will be picked up at some point in the future but with the new on/off again "Caesar" movie being somehow an apes movie and then again nothing to do with Planet of the apes (??!!) then maybe it would be best to remember and enjoy what we do have: five great films, a live action TV series and some charming cartoons. Not forgetting the huge amount of written and graphic depictions of our favourite planet both authorised and some fan led.
Written by John B Kirtley
Sept 2009
To read more of Peter Jacksons story get a copy of Brain Sibley's book
Peter Jackson: A film-makers journey. Harper and Collins

You could go anywhere with it. For the "circulars", maybe the "Battle" Lawgiver was THE Lawgiver and his teachings were lied about later. I think the "Battle" Lawgiver was supposed to show things can change (thus not circular). There could have been many Lawgivers. New York could've been a secluded area that had nothing to do with how society evolved on the West Coast of the TV show. POTA is what you make of it.


From: Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 8:39 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: New Thread




So, the TV series was supposed to take place around three hundred years after the roughly "1200 years ago" time of the Lawgiver from PLANET?

Then from PLANET we have that the Lawgiver's "era" was around 2778 AD, but BATTLE puts the Lawgiver's time at around 2670 AD.

This doesn't create a conflict for me, since I have the alternate timeline view of the series, and the Lawgiver of BATTLE doesn't seem to me to be the Lawgiver of PLANET that would write that man is "the Devil's pawn."

Perhaps the Lawgiver saw hated of man as a means to pacify conflicts between the three species of apes?

Of course, I expect that further APES films from Fox aren't going to get anywhere near 2670 to 2778 AD. They wiill probably take place in a "Dark Ages" before that.

Attachments :

large-66948.jpg
large-66948(1).jpg
large - Copy-66948.jpg
large - Copy-66948(1).jpg
large - Copy (2)-66948.jpg

.html -----Original Message-----
From: William Burge
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 1:38 PM
Subject: ape items

dear group, I found a 1972 ad for conquest showing at the imperial mall general cinema 1 and 2- the next photo is from sept 2011 for the showing of rise of the planet of the apes marquee in tenn--the last photo is from 1968 from the majestic theatre in hong kong showing planet on the side of the theatre. enjoy from william burge<.html

I consider "Rise of the POTA" to be Jackson's as well, since he developed the FX company WETA and got Andy Serkis involved in motion capture. Plus there was all the research done on "King Kong". Would "Rise" even exist without Jackson? I know Rupert Wyatt said he probably wouldn't have done it if they couldn't have done it with motion capture.


From: John
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:54 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Peter Jacksons Planet of the Apes



Peter Jackson's Planet of the apes

The Lord of the Apes

In 1975 a young New Zealand boy saw Planet of the Apes and fell in love with it. As he saw the four sequels and the TV series his love of all things POTA grew.
The young boy would one day give the world the Lord of the Rings trilogy but he started film making by trying to make his own sequel to one of his favourite films.
This is the story of how Peter Jackson tried and failed to make a Planet of the Apes movie that would have been the sixth in the series, and a film that we would have wanted to see.
Planet of the Apes not only worked as a sister picture to his other favourite movie "King Kong" but fired his imagination enough to start experimenting in ape prosthetics and even took him and his friend into the world of film making. It seems without this inspiration he may not have gone on to give us such fantastic movies as The Lord of the Rings trilogy, Heavenly Creatures and his re-make of the 1933 classic King Kong.
"I saw Planet of the Apes on TV and was blown away by it. I loved the special effects make-up but I also loved the story. I was already a fan of King Kong-although my fascination is not really with apes and gorillas so much as with a couple of great movies that both happen to have apes in them! Never the less, both films have an intriguing theme in common: that the gap separating humans from apes is far less than we might suppose!"
Peter and his friend Pete O'herne, began sculpting and moulding their own ape masks from plasticine with layers of locally bought latex. They would then cut up old wigs to add the hair. They even went as far as ordering foam latex mixture from Canada and creating "appliances" by cooking it in Jackson's Mothers oven! Footage of this exists and some unpublished photographs. If you look closely at the DVD extras on Lord of the Rings, you will see a "blink or you'll miss it" fully costumed TV gorilla soldier sitting in the Jacksons production office! (Apemania perhaps?)

Many years passed and Jackson slowly made his name along with his wife and writing partner Fran Walsh, as a shlock film maker with the likes of Bad Taste, Meet the Feebles and Braindead, but one idea had stayed with him.

A Sixth Ape Movie.
In October 1992 Jackson, now making a name for himself as a director, was approached by Ken Kamins of 20th Century Fox to have a meeting with producer Harry J. Ufland (Last Temptation of Christ, Night and the City and Michael Jackson's Bad) to pitch his idea for an apes movie. It would be an original story rather than a re-make and Jackson was particularly keen to include Roddy McDowall who was the key ingredient of the apes franchise in Jackson's eyes.
"Fran and I had devised a storyline that continued the ape's saga from where it left off in the fifth movie. We imagined their world being in the midst of an artistic renaissance, which made the ape government very nervous. It was a time of amazing art and we wanted Roddy McDowall to play an elderly chimpanzee that we based a little on Leonardo da Vinci. The plot involved the humans rising in revolt and a half human, half ape central character that was sheltered by the liberal apes, but hunted down by the gorillas."
Producer Harry Ufland was excited enough to arrange a meeting between Peter, Fran and Roddy. At this time Peter also approached Rick Baker and told him of his ape's idea that he was soon to pitch to Fox executives and Rick Baker responded with enthusiasm. Jackson, his co-writer and wife Fran Walsh and producer Harry Ufland, met with Roddy McDowall for lunch in LA in the summer of 92 and McDowall, who had by then read Peter and Fran's treatment for the new apes movie and who was by now in his early sixties, enthused both about the story and the possibility of creating a new ape character that felt like a "comfortable grey-haired version of his first ape, Cornelius"
"We lunched at the Ivy with Roddy, who was very sweet. He had seen and really liked Heavenly Creatures and was kind of excited about the idea of working with us. He said "I had never wanted to be in a Planet of the Apes film again, but I love your idea and Id love you guys to make it. We should do it."
The group then set out to meet with the Fox executives at the Fox Studios.
"Walking from the parking lot to the office where the meeting was to be held, Roddy gave us a running commentary on the history of the studio where he had worked for over fifty years since his early films as a child star. He'd point to a sound stage and say "That's where we shot How green was my valley...."and he'd say, "This was the street that we used for this film...And so-and-so was shot over there..." He was full of amazing memories and in just taking that short walk with him we experienced this fantastic first-hand insight into Hollywood."
The meeting with Fox Executive Tom Jacobson did not go well. When Harry Ufland had previously discussed the possibility of bringing the Apes project to Fox, it had been with Joe Roth, who had now left the studio to work for Disney. Jacobson was certainly interested in a Planet of the Apes movie, but less so in Roddy McDowall - Peter's memory is that he really didn't seem to know anything about the veteran actor or understood his emotional involvement with the film series.
"It went incredibly badly, but in the process we learned a useful lesson in Hollywood politics. Harry Ufland and Joe Roth were good friends and obviously Joe had been happy to help Harry with his Planet of the Apes project. However Tom Jacobson was not committed to any previous discussions that may have taken place. So, when Harry made remarks about Joe having said this or that, he simply looked up and said "Joe is not here anymore...!" And at this point we realised, okay, there are no allies! No matter what Fox think about a Planet of the Apes movie, they are not interested in Harry Ufland being Joe Roth's old buddy and they don't care about Roddy McDowall."And as for us...Heavenly Creatures hadn't been released at this stage, which left us with Bad Taste, Meet the Feebles and Braindead as our films, and they were films that none of those people had seen. So we walked out and somehow, at that meeting, the project died.
When Peter and Fran had left the offices of Fox after pitching their idea for sixth Planet of the Apes movie, it had seemed that that particular door had closed, but with the passing of a few years (and executives) it opened for a second time. Accompanied by producer Ken Kamins, Peter met with two of Fox's senior personnel, Peter Chermin and Tom Rothman, over lunch at the Hotel Bel-Air to discuss his script idea for the apes.
"We re-pitched exactly the same idea to these two high-powered Fox executives who'd never heard it before. Once again it was met with a lot of enthusiasm but when we launched into this long explanation about how they'd spent a lot of money developing a potential Planet of the Apes film-though not with us because we worked on spec and never earned a cent!- and how they already had one or two failed screenplays. We heard of various versions including one by Terry Hayes, who wrote Mad Max 2 AND 3 and went on to write Vertical Limit. Anyway, at the end of this preamble, they said that they'd like to use our story, and have Fran and I write the script and me direct but they also wanted James Cameron to produce it for Arnold Schwarzenegger to star in it. "We have a real commitment" they said, "for this to be a vehicle for Schwarzenegger, why not meet with James Cameron before you leave town and pitch him your ideas? We think as a group you'll make a great team...."
Back at their hotel Peter and Fran discussed the proposition and were of one mind..
"It felt bad. Not because I don't like Cameron or Schwarzenegger, I'm actually a big fan of their films, but Fran and I are incredibly independent spirits, you know, and we are very protective of our work. We thought that if we had James Cameron as the producer and Arnold Schwarzenegger as the star, I would have absolutely no power, and if, for example, there were a conflict with Schwarzenegger then Cameron would be likely to back him rather than me. I didn't know for certain, it was just assumptions, but it didn't feel like a work situation that we should put ourselves into. So we declined to take the meeting and, this time round, it was us who passed on the project. We finally met Jim Cameron in 2005 and we found him to be charming. I couldn't help wondering what might have happened if we'd said "Yes" to the deal..........."
In 1996 Fox approached Jackson again but this time the lawyers killed the deal dead when two other studios were mooted as possible partners in the Jackson Ape movie.
In 1997 Fran and Peter, who by now were becoming players in the film industry and actively involved in the development of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, played with the idea of resurrecting the Apes movie idea as back up project, while they got the Rings trilogy off the ground. The death of Roddy McDowall a few months later caused Peter to lose whatever remnants of interest he had left for the idea.
Fox eventually went with Tim Burton as director and even got Zanuck involved as producer but the result although enjoyable to some, was not what the fans wanted. The make-up and effects design was of course as Rick Baker perfect as you can get but the movie lacked the kind of human/ape story and even the kind of cast that the people and fans of the original franchise had offered.
To think that some executive at Fox had treat Roddy so shamefully and had turned away the team that went on to create Lord of the Rings is saddening to an old ape fan like myself. To have seen a sixth movie as part of the original time line with Roddy giving one last swan (ape?) song would have been magnificent.
Maybe Fran and Peters story will be picked up at some point in the future but with the new on/off again "Caesar" movie being somehow an apes movie and then again nothing to do with Planet of the apes (??!!) then maybe it would be best to remember and enjoy what we do have: five great films, a live action TV series and some charming cartoons. Not forgetting the huge amount of written and graphic depictions of our favourite planet both authorised and some fan led.
Written by John B Kirtley
Sept 2009
To read more of Peter Jacksons story get a copy of Brain Sibley's book
Peter Jackson: A film-makers journey. Harper and Collins

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OK, I'm interested in this BETRAYAL comic.

 

What's the best place to order this over the internet, as there isn't a comic book store anywhere near me?  Anyone here know?

 

And don't tell me issue #1 is sold out already

<.html

Here's an interview with Andy Serkis about the motion capture that has catapulted him into a unique position, including his beginnings as a reluctant Gollum. A good reminder why he's our Precious.

http://www.backstage.com/bso/content_display/news-and-features/e3i722aebc992e54ea9a6709f32b311e7a5

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If you search for "betrayal apes" on ebay you'll find tons of sellers. But being a limited series there will surely be a collected trade paperback with the entire story coming out shortly after the series ends. So you may want to wait for that.

Dario

<.html

OK, I've finally decided how it should be.

"Rise 2" (2013) - Concludes the story of Caesar. The apes have taken over the humans' modern buildings and toys, so there's some nice visual reference to Boulle's novel, which will be celebrating 50 years. The humans are underground trying to escape the devastating virus. Kind of does for "Battle" what "Rise" did for "Conquest"; some apes want revenge/genocide, Caesar tries to keep the peace. Would be groovy if it ends with a statue of Caesar. Will apes and humans live in peace? Depends how it does at the box office. Fox has Spielberg's "Robopocalypse" slated for that summer. Would be good teamwork with the "Rise" sequel, an apocalyptic one-two. >POW!<

"Rise 3" (2016) - Goes into the future. The virus has killed off most of the humans and leveled the playing field. Humans are back above ground (some of them). They can still talk, perhaps it's like the TV series society, slaves and what not. Perhaps it tells the story of the Lawgiver, and why he learned to hate humans. The real story of why humans were banished from ape society (and eventually became animalish). That Proteus stuff was just hugger mugger.

"Rise 4" (2018) - This is set in the society of the original movie, which turns 50 that year. It's before Cornelius, Zira and Zauis, so no one has to feel self-conscious. But it details how they got there. Perhaps why they seem cut off from the rest of the continent. Maybe it ends by integrating Taylor's arrival. Full circle 50 years later.

Might as well reserve your tickets now.

.html <.html

I may have this completely arse-wise, but SFX has a snippet about Super 8 winning the best sci fi movie category at the Emmy Awards.Is that correct? How does a cinema release win a tv award? And why didn't RISE win it? John, Scrolls.

TGIF! THE MENDEZ DYNASTY hits the home stretch with this week's new installment, now online.

To read the new MENDEZ biography, click on the banner on the Yahoo Home page or use this link: http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/MD.htm.

And for early risers, remember the POTA marathon on OuterMax starting 6AM tomorrow morning.

Have a great weekend everyone!

Visit all the Group's special features including:

• The Internal Website - Original POTA One Sheets & Lobby Cards, Trailers & Rare Videos, Trading Cards and much, much more.
• Marvel Archive

- Online archive of Marvel Comics' adaptations of the original POTA movies. Lessons from the Lawgiver – Words of wisdom from the Greatest Ape of All. Cornelius' Journal - The Memoirs of Dr. Cornelius. Ape City Chronicles - The history of Ape City's first 75 years, written by Virgil. The Illustrated Monkey Planet - Hungarian comic adaptation of Pierre Boulle's original novel. POTA Locations - The places where the POTA films were shot. The Art Gallery - Works of POTA Art by our members. The Database Section - POTA info ranging from Characters to Comics. The Photos Section - POTA pics contributed by members.

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You can buy it on Boom!'s website: http://www.boom-studios.com/catalogsearch/advanced/result/?name=&series=733&writer=&artist=

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
> OK, I'm interested in this BETRAYAL comic.
>
> What's the best place to order this over the internet, as there isn't a comic book store anywhere near me? Anyone here know?
>
> And don't tell me issue #1 is sold out already.
>
>

I don't disagree with this. Rise is a prequel the way Batman Begins and Casino Royale were prequels.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
>
> RISE is both a reboot and a prequel. It's not meant to have "strict continuity" with PLANET, none with ESCAPE, CONQUEST and BATTLE (notice that I leave out BENEATH -- because BENEATH doesn't matter), but it's supposed to be an origin story of what would eventually become the planet of the apes, as seen in the original movie.
>
> If the exact year of when PLANET and BENEATH happened, 3978 or 3955, doesn't strictly matter to some fans, then strict continuity with RISE and beyond doesn't matter to me... Who cares? Just enjoy the new movies.
>
> -- Rory
>

Remember the Lawgiver in Battle spoke of 'evil men who betrayed god's trust'.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> You could go anywhere with it. For the "circulars", maybe the "Battle" Lawgiver was THE Lawgiver and his teachings were lied about later. I think the "Battle" Lawgiver was supposed to show things can change (thus not circular). There could have been many Lawgivers. New York could've been a secluded area that had nothing to do with how society evolved on the West Coast of the TV show. POTA is what you make of it.
>
>

True, but there are quite a few differences between respective
publishers involved, MR Comics and Boom Studios.

MR Comics was a new company just starting out with a publisher
unfamiliar with comics. They only put out a handful of titles,Revolution
being their most ambitious, and never put out any trades. Deciding not
to putting out the trade for Revolution could be argued as a point
demonstrating the publishers failure to understand the business. With
most of the work already done, putting out a trade is where they could
make easy money. Ty could tell you more about the frustrations trying to
convince the publisher to put out the trade.

Boom is a much more established company with a long track record and
lots of titles under their belt. More importantly, they DO put out
trades collecting their series.

Dario

----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter Goatley <goathunter@...>
Date: Thursday, November 17, 2011 10:30 pm
Subject: Re: [pota] Re: FW: Google Alert - "planet of the apes"

> Yeah, that's what people said about REVOLUTION, but sales didn't
> warrant it....
>
> Hunter
>
> On Nov 17, 2011, at 8:02 PM, Dario <darios@...> wrote:
>
> > If you search for "betrayal apes" on ebay you'll find tons of
> sellers. But being a limited series there will surely be a
> collected trade paperback with the entire story coming out shortly
> after the series ends. So you may want to wait for that.
> >
> > Dario
> >
> >
>

Didn't happen. Theatrical movies don't win Emmies and there is no "sci-fi" category.


From: johnroche49
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 2:27 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Emmy query



I may have this completely arse-wise, but SFX has a snippet about Super 8 winning the best sci fi movie category at the Emmy Awards.Is that correct? How does a cinema release win a tv award? And why didn't RISE win it? John, Scrolls.

He's specifically referring to the humans who destroyed the world with nukes. I'd call them that too.


From: jamesa1102
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 4:32 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [pota] Re: New Thread




Remember the Lawgiver in Battle spoke of 'evil men who betrayed god's trust'.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> You could go anywhere with it. For the "circulars", maybe the "Battle" Lawgiver was THE Lawgiver and his teachings were lied about later. I think the "Battle" Lawgiver was supposed to show things can change (thus not circular). There could have been many Lawgivers. New York could've been a secluded area that had nothing to do with how society evolved on the West Coast of the TV show. POTA is what you make of it.
>
>

As I understand it, it's already been revealed that the next film will take place eight years after RISE.

.html <.html

Thanks for that interesting article.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
> Now here's a story I think we can all agree on.
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/science/chimps-days-in-research-may-be-near-an-end.html_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha210

One of the writers suggested they would introduce the nuclear war aspect. Didn't say that specifically but said "Rise" is before the nuclear war. All they have to do is suggest humans living underground, they don't have to get into the mutants specifically.

I should be running Fox. They just turned down David Cronenberg returning to "The Fly". >: (

http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplaylist/exclusive-david-cronenberg-says-that-fox-have-passed-on-his-script-for-the-fly-sequel






From: Haristas@...
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 8:43 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [pota] The "Rise" Decade






OK, I've finally decided how it should be.

"Rise 2" (2013) - Concludes the story of Caesar. The apes have taken over the humans' modern buildings and toys, so there's some nice visual reference to Boulle's novel, which will be celebrating 50 years. The humans are underground trying to escape the devastating virus. Kind of does for "Battle" what "Rise" did for "Conquest"; some apes want revenge/genocide, Caesar tries to keep the peace. Would be groovy if it ends with a statue of Caesar. Will apes and humans live in peace? Depends how it does at the box office. Fox has Spielberg's "Robopocalypse" slated for that summer. Would be good teamwork with the "Rise" sequel, an apocalyptic one-two. >POW!<

"Rise 3" (2016) - Goes into the future. The virus has killed off most of the humans and leveled the playing field. Humans are back above ground (some of them). They can still talk, perhaps it's like the TV series society, slaves and what not. Perhaps it tells the story of the Lawgiver, and why he learned to hate humans. The real story of why humans were banished from ape society (and eventually became animalish). That Proteus stuff was just hugger mugger.

"Rise 4" (2018) - This is set in the society of the original movie, which turns 50 that year. It's before Cornelius, Zira and Zauis, so no one has to feel self-conscious. But it details how they got there. Perhaps why they seem cut off from the rest of the continent. Maybe it ends by integrating Taylor's arrival. Full circle 50 years later.

Might as well reserve your tickets now.




Good thing you're not running Fox, Krueger.

I'm not going to speculate as to what story lines will be, but I expect the next two installments (yes, it will be just a trilogy) won't go any further into the future than a few hundred years.

Beyond the trilogy -- if the remaining two films are good and make huge profits --, Fox will want to yet again visit the planet of the apes, perhaps in another decade after the last film.

You're fixation on getting to the time of the first film leaves them with no place to go, especially if the mistake of BENEATH is going to be repeated.

I say, no more human mutants -- AND NO DOOMSDAY BOMB!

Might you have titles in mind, yet?

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> OK, I've finally decided how it should be.
>
> "Rise 2" (2013) - Concludes the story of Caesar. The apes have taken over the humans' modern buildings and toys, so there's some nice visual reference to Boulle's novel, which will be celebrating 50 years. The humans are underground trying to escape the devastating virus. Kind of does for "Battle" what "Rise" did for "Conquest"; some apes want revenge/genocide, Caesar tries to keep the peace. Would be groovy if it ends with a statue of Caesar. Will apes and humans live in peace? Depends how it does at the box office. Fox has Spielberg's "Robopocalypse" slated for that summer. Would be good teamwork with the "Rise" sequel, an apocalyptic one-two. >POW!<
>
> "Rise 3" (2016) - Goes into the future. The virus has killed off most of the humans and leveled the playing field. Humans are back above ground (some of them). They can still talk, perhaps it's like the TV series society, slaves and what not. Perhaps it tells the story of the Lawgiver, and why he learned to hate humans. The real story of why humans were banished from ape society (and eventually became animalish). That Proteus stuff was just hugger mugger.
>
> "Rise 4" (2018) - This is set in the society of the original movie, which turns 50 that year. It's before Cornelius, Zira and Zauis, so no one has to feel self-conscious. But it details how they got there. Perhaps why they seem cut off from the rest of the continent. Maybe it ends by integrating Taylor's arrival. Full circle 50 years later.
>
> Might as well reserve your tickets now.
>

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Looks like Fox wants that "Rise of the POTA" sequel pronto. Director Rupert Wyatt reportedly wanted to do Warners' "Londongrad" movie but had to bow out to get the Ape sequel rolling. Certainly sounds like 2013 to me (script willing).

http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/londongrad-losing-rupert-wyatt/

Attachments :

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6054419925_aa72d07b3a-66977.jpg

.html-----Original Message-----
From: William Burge
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 5:04 PM
Subject: rise marquee 2011

Dear group, I found another theatre showing rise of the planet of the apes. the theatre is called WEST BRANCH CINEMA 3 in west branch, michigan . the theatre opened in 1941. from william burge<.html

Attachments :

large (2).jpg
large (2)-66978.jpg

.html-----Original Message-----
From: William Burge
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 4:25 PM
Subject: rise of the planet of the apes marquee

dear group, Heres another view of the rise marquee from the onnie kate theatre est. 1976 in elizabethton, tennesse. The other film shown with rise is a film called dont be araid of the dark a aug 26, 2011 release starring guy pearce and katie holmes. this film is a thiller remake of a 1973 ABC TV movie with the same title starring kim darby that also was in john waynes 1969 TRUE GRIT.<.html

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Beneath was sub standard, but it never bothered me as much as Battle.

Though there are certain things I don't like about each one of them.

 

 

In a message dated 11/18/2011 11:57:36 A.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

I just don't like the whole half ape/half human business.  It's too bizarre.  I didn't like that they toyed with way back with BENEATH.

<.html

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And yet no one ever raises an eyebrow (pun intended) that Spock is half Vulcan.  I think it's because even though evolved apes can speak and reason we still think of them as subhuman.  And Captain Kirk seduced women across the galaxy.  Though the Klingons seem to have undergone a strange cultural transformation from the cold war days. They and the Romulans were sort of Communist surrogates.  The same sort of thing was in Disney's Tail Spin with Warthogs and Pandas.  But to the point, no matter how far apes evolve we still see them on a lower branch of the primate family tree.  But Kirk and a green woman? She can be an evolved plant, as long as she looks like a woman, it's fine, since it does not clash with out notion of beauty.

 

 

In a message dated 11/18/2011 12:09:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, johnbkirtley@... writes:

It would be creepy. The shots I've seen of the ape/human child from beneath do look wrong and raise some moral questions that would be a nightmare to tackle in a two hour movie lol

<.html

Did I say 'Emmy'? I obviously meant Spike TV's Scream Awards.II'm always getting those confused.John, Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
>
>
> I may have this completely arse-wise, but SFX has a snippet about Super 8 winning the best sci fi movie category at the Emmy Awards.Is that correct? How does a cinema release win a tv award? And why didn't RISE win it? John, Scrolls.
>
>
>
>
> Emmies don't go to movies. It must have been something else that gave SUPER 8 an award. Maybe MTV?
>

I'm hoping for a RISE2 that does what the magnificent BENEATH did---build on great foundations and create an enduring mythos that fed a saga.I love BENEATH, it's my favourite film.It gives us the concepts of gorilla bad guy leaders,Mutants, the Doomsday Bomb and it allows Apes to endure, not just be a quirky footnote in cinema histories.In other words,without Dehn, no Apes franchise, no sequels, tv series, comics, books,fanzines, groups--no us!!!RISE 2 needs to be daring and different, whilst retaining all the meat and depth of RISE 1.With Wyatt and Serkis on board, and the same writers, it's looking very promising.John, Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Looks like Fox wants that "Rise of the POTA" sequel pronto. Director Rupert Wyatt reportedly wanted to do Warners' "Londongrad" movie but had to bow out to get the Ape sequel rolling. Certainly sounds like 2013 to me (script willing).
>
> http://www.deadline.com/2011/11/londongrad-losing-rupert-wyatt/
>