Yeah....moderators are small fish Will....group owners though - they rule
the planet! ;)

So long as you know you are welcome to celebrate with the gang here or the
gang over there.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Will Hoover [will5967@...]
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 3:37 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Anniversary screenings


on 9/14/04 12:24 AM, Whitty, Michael at Michael.Whitty@... wrote:

Yeah, that's fine by me.

But remember us here at the chat group if the viewing inspires you
to....well.....CHAT! ;)

Cheers Will.

Michael



Well, now you know where I stand. And I think you of all people know that
being a all mighty moderator doesn't make one king of the world.

Will







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> Anybody who has not yet joined Mez's group for the Anniversary

Screenings Celebration, get yourselves to:

> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/friends_and_fugitives/

-- I was wondering, seeing as the other day was the 30th anniversary
of the TV show has there been any mention of that anywhere? (apart
from these groups of course!) Anything in the the US or even the UK
where it was hugely popular?

As far as I can tell there has been no mention at all down here but
that does not suprise me at all.

Curious,
Neil

Today Mr Postie delivered my print of the Beware the beast, Ltd.
edition, artwork.

This fully painted, full colour image, (Gideon discovering the
ship) is particularly dear to me. It's the one image that inspired
the resulting story. The one idea from which everything else
followed.

Neil's artwork as always is sensational. The print itself is
flawless. Bright, punchy and vibrant, it looks drop dead gorgeous
on my study wall. I've framed it already and it looks even better for
it.

This is a ltd edition folks, when they're gone, they're gone (and
they ARE going) Get one while you can. You won't regret it.

Dave B

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Dave B" <smugster@b...> wrote:

> Today Mr Postie delivered my print of the Beware the beast, Ltd.

edition, artwork.
This fully painted, full colour image, (Gideon discovering the ship)
is particularly dear to me. It's the one image that inspired the
resulting story. The one idea from which everything else followed.
Neil's artwork as always is sensational. The print itself is
flawless. Bright, punchy and vibrant, it looks drop dead gorgeous on
my study wall. I've framed it already and it looks even better for
it.
This is a ltd edition folks, when they're gone, they're gone (and
they ARE going) Get one while you can. You won't regret it.

-- Glad you are happy with it Dave. You're right, the print really
did come up well I really like the job the printers did on it.

Neil

Any of the ladies (or anyone else) on the group who has way too much
money to spare
might be interested in this little gem on ebay!:

<http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&category=60345&item=3840126706&rd=1>

Neil

I certainly have not seen anything!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil [nfoster@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 5:28 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Anniversary screenings


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> Anybody who has not yet joined Mez's group for the Anniversary

Screenings Celebration, get yourselves to:

> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/friends_and_fugitives/

<http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/friends_and_fugitives/>


-- I was wondering, seeing as the other day was the 30th anniversary
of the TV show has there been any mention of that anywhere? (apart
from these groups of course!) Anything in the the US or even the UK
where it was hugely popular?

As far as I can tell there has been no mention at all down here but
that does not suprise me at all.

Curious,
Neil








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Anybody read this book or know anything about it?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=377&item=6927210353&rd=1

GREAT APES

When artist Simon Dykes wakes after a late night of routine debauchery, he discovers that his world has changed beyond recognition. His girlfriend, Sarah, has turned into a chimpanzee and to Simon's appalled surprise, so has the rest of humanity.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Glad you liked it Dave.

A few other happy campers will get their posters too within the next few
days - hope they also will let us know how they like them.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave B [smugster@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 5:50 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Beware the print


Today Mr Postie delivered my print of the Beware the beast, Ltd.
edition, artwork.

This fully painted, full colour image, (Gideon discovering the
ship) is particularly dear to me. It's the one image that inspired
the resulting story. The one idea from which everything else
followed.

Neil's artwork as always is sensational. The print itself is
flawless. Bright, punchy and vibrant, it looks drop dead gorgeous
on my study wall. I've framed it already and it looks even better for
it.

This is a ltd edition folks, when they're gone, they're gone (and
they ARE going) Get one while you can. You won't regret it.

Dave B







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nop, I haven't read it but it DOES sound familiar! ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: Hoknes [hoknes@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 9:23 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [PotaDG] WILL SELF: GREAT APES


Anybody read this book or know anything about it?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem
<http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=377&item=692721035
3&rd=1> &category=377&item=6927210353&rd=1

GREAT APES

When artist Simon Dykes wakes after a late night of routine debauchery, he
discovers that his world has changed beyond recognition. His girlfriend,
Sarah, has turned into a chimpanzee and to Simon's appalled surprise, so has
the rest of humanity.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

POTA website home page is updated
www.hoknes.com/apes.htm
there is text details for new issues:
ape chronicles 37 38 and simian scrolls 9

If I keep working hard Ape Chronicles might go montly for a short period while I catch up on articles etc for the 30th anniversary of the tv series

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That would be fantastic Terry!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Hoknes [hoknes@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 10:03 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com; pota@yahoogroups.com;
apechronicles@yahoogroups.com; pota_Phenomenon@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] APE CHRONICLES #38 / SIMIAN SCROLLS #9 - now available !


POTA website home page is updated
www.hoknes.com/apes.htm
there is text details for new issues:
ape chronicles 37 38 and simian scrolls 9

If I keep working hard Ape Chronicles might go montly for a short period
while I catch up on articles etc for the 30th anniversary of the tv series







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Hoknes" <hoknes@h...> wrote:

> Anybody read this book or know anything about it?
> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?

ViewItem&category=377&item=6927210353&rd=1

> GREAT APES
> When artist Simon Dykes wakes after a late night of routine

debauchery, he discovers that his world has changed beyond
recognition. His girlfriend, Sarah, has turned into a chimpanzee
and to Simon's appalled surprise, so has the rest of humanity.

-- I found a little bit more about it:

'After a night of routine, pedestrian debauchery, a middle-aged,
successful London painter wakes up to find out that his girlfriend
has turned into a chimpanzee. It seems that the entire city is
overrun by chimps. The main character is convinced he is still a
human & is confined to an emergency psychiatric ward. His
psychiatrist treating him there tries to convince the main character
that everyone who is fully sentient in this world are chimpanzees &
the patient comes to realize that he is struggling with the
horrifying delusion that he is really a human trapped in a chimp's
body. A hilarious, often disturbing, and absolutely original take on
man's place in the evolutionary chain'


Neil

I had the book and found it utterly inpenetrable. I think I was about 4 chapters
in when I realised that I didn't like the characters and I couldn't even
remember the last sentence I'd just read.

Jeff Kruger, I know, thinks more kindly of it, but I thought it was sh*te!

Dave

Don't hold back Dave - say what you REALLY think! ;)

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave B [smugster@...]
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 4:21 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: WILL SELF: GREAT APES


I had the book and found it utterly inpenetrable. I think I was about 4
chapters
in when I realised that I didn't like the characters and I couldn't even
remember the last sentence I'd just read.

Jeff Kruger, I know, thinks more kindly of it, but I thought it was sh*te!

Dave







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Michael,

I am hiding down in East Sale - waiting for the day when you start to
look after my interests in your day job (by that I mean I am the
RAAF).

Living one base means I can't offer any spare beds, but I am happy to
show Elaine or any other POTA fans around our little slice of heaven.

One of our roles down here is to keep a sharp eye out for any P40s
with ape pilots as well. :) You never know when the could "Return".

Michael, I am tempted to take you up on your kind offer of supplying
DVDs for the series. I bought the tapes back when they released them
out here - but my tapes are in storage with a lot of my gear and I am
relying on my failing memory to contribute to threads.

I know that you offered for free but that is not fair - I can afford
it. Please PM me with a fair price, plus postage (although you could
stick it in Defence mail) and I can send the money to you with some
POTA TV trading cards and an ANSA patch (the only POTA items I have
apart from a lone Taylor astronaut figure.

Cheers,

Patrick

One of the things I wanted to explore was this whole background story
regarding the Scientists from "THE LEGACY". Who were they? When did
they store those caches of Knowledge (and the holographic projectors
pointing the way to 'em)? How did they know that "the End is near"
(i.e. nuclear war)? Did they actually know the DATE it would happen?
How could they... unless some Time Traveller had told 'em about it?

The Ape-onauts are able to inform Hasslein (et al.) about the End of
the World, and about certain aspects of the End of human
civilization, but even they didn't convey the actual Year of the
nuclear devastation that created the Forbidden Zone(s), and all that.

Part of my fleshing-out of these Scientist dudes involves them also
being science-fiction fans. For instance, in "THE LEGACY" Virdon and
Burke (and Galen) witness a holographic message recorded long ago,
showing an old man who speaks on behalf of "the Scientists" who know
that the end of their civilization is imminent. Doesn't this sound a
tad familiar? It should: it's as if they got the idea to storehouse
human knowledge from Isaac Asimov, whose novel-series "FOUNDATION" is
about a group of scientists led by a mathematician named Hari Seldon,
who has invented a new kind of math... one capable of predicting the
Future. He uses that new math to predict the Fall of the Galactic
Empire... and establishes two "foundations" to shepherd Mankind
through the chaotic "interregnum" between the end of the 1st empire
and the start of a 2nd. He leaves behind a holographic projector,
which periodically comes to life and plays back a prerecorded message
to posterity, assuring them that the Future is moving along as
planned-and-predicted.

I can imagine Virdon and Burke -- in an unfilmed scene -- mentioning
how similar the circumstances are, from Asimov's book to the reality
they're experiencing in Oakland's ruins. Hell, for all they or we
know, the real-life author -- Isaac Asimov -- could very well have
been a member of the group of Scientists who stored those caches and
holograph-projectors (that is, the POTA-universe Asimov).

Imagine a group of people surviving a real nuclear war, but not just
ANY group. A group of sci-fi afficionados, including some of the
best "hard sf" authors. People who think about the Future enough to
have written plausible speculative fiction about it. Futurists.

How would Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein (et al.) have reacted if -- in the
real world -- time-traveling Ape-onauts had appeared and brought with
them eyewitness testimony of the End of the World, some 1,982 years
in the Future? Would people like that, who care(d) about the Future
of the human race, have just sat back and tossed up their hands in
resignation? Or... would they have gotten together (perhaps at an SF
convention) and hashed out some workable plans for safeguarding the
advances humanity has made in Science, and to work towards building
hope for the Future -- even IF that future includes mankind suffering
a global thermonuclear war?

Guys like Jerry Pournelle -- who wrote the novelization of "ESCAPE
FROM THE PLANET OF THE APES" -- have been on science-advisory boards
for the government/military, and it isn't out of the realm of
plausibility that American government types would solicit the ideas
of futurists (such as the best SF authors), having them get together
into "think-tanks". That's exactly what Virdon says of the "Oakland
Science Institute" building -- he refers to the "think-tank" in the
dialogue of the episode.

As for why they would relocate -- after the nuke war -- to Australia,
well, as I said before, it would be for sound scientific purposes:
it's the territory least damaged by nuke devastation and fallout.
They have to safeguard not only the Knowledge accumulated throughout
the scientific revolution; they also have to safeguard the gene pool.
Unlike the Mendez group, which comes to revere the effects of
the "blessings of the holy fallout" which "descend upon" them, the
Scientists would NOT want their population base to suffer any
physical malformations from radiation poisoning. I can even imagine
them contemplating the euthanization of deformed babies -- there's a
scene in one of Heinlein's books where a child conceived by incest is
almost killed at birth, and spared ONLY because it was not deformed.
In "APE AND ESSENCE" there's a horrifying ceremony depicted involving
the killing of radiation-deformed babies, if I remember aright.

There are a whole lot of other reasons why I wanted the Scientists to
set up shop in Australia. The transformation of "Cape YORK Peninsula"
into a new "New YORK City" was just the obvious thing to suggest. In
essence, what the Scientists hope to accomplish in the long term is
not just the preservation of Knowledge (left behind in "Old America"
in Oakland and other places, as well as throughout other cities of
the world), but eventually the expansion of human intelligence beyond
the confines of the 'cradle' of Earth. In time, they create a "New
America Space Agency" (NASA), and go out in ships powered by warp
engines similar in design to the ANSA ones Hasslein invented in pre-
Catastrophe times.

Also... hey, it's called "PLANET of the apes", and for the most part
the entire saga takes place in North America! What about the REST of
the bloody world? One of the things I liked about MARVEL's "Future
History Chronicles" was that the ocean-going "city-ships" could
transport us to other parts of the planet. The ADVENTURE comics also
ran a series taking place in Europe ("APE CITY" I think it was).

One of the things about Australia that I felt was important -- from a
symbolic point-of-view -- was that it is almost antipodal to the
continent of North America. The "lower 48" is actually antipodal to
the southeastern Indian Ocean, but Australia is almost on the exact
other side of the world. Symbolically, by being on opposite sides of
the planet, "Old America" (a mostly dead land, the carcass of the old
USA) and "New America" (a reborn, utopian, idealized exemplar of
Americanism) show what was WRONG about America -- leading to the nuke
war that engulfed the world -- and what America SHOULD have been
about, hearkening back to the founding principles: "... to preserve
the blessings of Liberty for ourselves AND OUR POSTERITY..."

To that end, the Scientists (in my scenario) re-create America the
way they felt it should have been all along, for the sake
of "posterity". Like the Vortex-dwelling "Eternals" from the
movie "ZARDOZ", they preserve all that was good from the Past... and,
in my scenario, I'm gonna have 'em send artifact-finding teams around
the globe (a couple centuries after the nuke war, after they've built
up a sizable population again)... and ONE artifact they're gonna dig
up and bring back to Australia/"New America" is -- the smaller-scale
replica of the Statue of Liberty currently standing on an island in
the Seine, in Paris. The statue was designed and built by a
Frenchman, after all!

Mike -- you posted an excellent article (written by an Aussie) about
what it means to be an American, over on my POTA Phenomenon site. You
should post it here, too, because it says a lot of what I intend
regarding my fictional "Americanization" of Australia.

I could say more, here, but I've gotta go do some stuff, and my arse
is gettin' sore. Ciao for now...

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 09-15-2004

------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Mr Tilton and I have fought....I mean DISCUSSED this one before
Patrick (Sandman)!
>
> It is really difficult for me to get the point across. I guess
part of being an Aussie is being proud of our country and our
achievements (population is the same as that of New York City, yet we
rank #4 in the Olympics....you would hardly believe that is
POSSIBLE!), and feeling a knot in the gut when someone talks about
renaming our country. Patrick M T is well intended and means it as a
compliment, but (as I explained far more colourfully to him in the
past) well intentioned or not, fiction or fact....I can't help but be
really defensive when someone wants to rename my country.
>
> We too had to fight for our independence (typically not much blood,
more of a yelling at the English to "piss off you Pommy bastards!" -
they got us back in WW1!) and we love "freedom". We have so much in
common, but I have never met an Aussie who would THINK to rename a
country "Australia" in ANY situation.
>
> Anyhow....I think we should just agree to disagree on this one!
Maybe we could ask Patrick to rename New Zealand! ;) (inside joke -
Aussies and New Zealanders have this love/hate thing going...based
mainly on rugby results!).
>
> Michael
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > From: Patrick[SMTP:SANDMAN4552@Y...]
>
> I know it is your story and you are free to chart its path with
your own hand' but I must state that your outline of the relocation
of the embers of the United States to Australia fills me with some
trepidation as an Australian. Hey most of us like Americans, and just
like in the novel and movie "On The Beach" (an ironical title for
another end of the world movie when you think it predates POTA) we
would gladly welcome any and all survivors of a nuclear catastrophe.
>
> I think letting the scientists build another New York City on Cape
York would be fine, but I hope your "New America" doesn't displace
poor old Australia :) Perhaps Michael would like to add a comment on
the future for us Aussies.

I bought this book at my local library book sale but have yet to read it.
Sounds very strange. Elaine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh man, oh man, oh man!! I got my print today and let's just say... sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

Gonna have to go out tonight and get a frame for it!! This will go in thew babies room for sure! Baby Milo!!!

Too sweet guys!!

-Chris


---------------------------------

We'd better get this beaten up old POTA franchise back up again for your
baby and the next generation, or they are going to find it hard to explain
to their friends what this "Planet of the Apes" thing is! ;)

Great to see another happy recipient.

Hunter, you should get yours any day now as should you Anthony.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: HollowedOut [at_deaths_door@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 9:59 AM
To: POTA group
Subject: [PotaDG] BTB: The Print!


Oh man, oh man, oh man!! I got my print today and let's just say...
sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

Gonna have to go out tonight and get a frame for it!! This will go in thew
babies room for sure! Baby Milo!!!

Too sweet guys!!

-Chris







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, I wonder sometimes if POTA was a "Truman Show" in the US with the rest
of the world watching!

Are we to assume that the USA = "the world" or that it is all that's left?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 1:07 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: On The Beach in 2503


Also... hey, it's called "PLANET of the apes", and for the most part
the entire saga takes place in North America! What about the REST of
the bloody world? One of the things I liked about MARVEL's "Future
History Chronicles" was that the ocean-going "city-ships" could
transport us to other parts of the planet. The ADVENTURE comics also
ran a series taking place in Europe ("APE CITY" I think it was).







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll do that - thanks for reminding me!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 1:07 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: On The Beach in 2503


Mike -- you posted an excellent article (written by an Aussie) about
what it means to be an American, over on my POTA Phenomenon site. You
should post it here, too, because it says a lot of what I intend
regarding my fictional "Americanization" of Australia.

I could say more, here, but I've gotta go do some stuff, and my arse
is gettin' sore. Ciao for now...








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gahto (from Tomorrow's Tide): "I am dead. Believe me. The Gods have
willed it".

Whitty - the sword pierces my chest and rightfully removes my breath
of life -- and therefore my body and mind from this world.

It is a relief. I could not have withstood the shame.

Arrgh!

Mark T-B.


P.S. I'm looking at the clock and it seems to be spinning forward
towards 3085 A.D. !!!!

;)

Thanks Sparky.

We have called you an ambulance and we are all praying they will mend your
tortured heart.

Now off to Mez's group to tell them about your TV Show experiences.

Please post the same message to this group because there are quite a few
members who are not in Mez's group and maybe some good quality chat will
draw them over.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: sparkytb2005 [sparkytb@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 12:16 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: (quite rightfully) being sent into the wilderness


Gahto (from Tomorrow's Tide): "I am dead. Believe me. The Gods have
willed it".

Whitty - the sword pierces my chest and rightfully removes my breath
of life -- and therefore my body and mind from this world.

It is a relief. I could not have withstood the shame.

Arrgh!

Mark T-B.


P.S. I'm looking at the clock and it seems to be spinning forward
towards 3085 A.D. !!!!

;)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> Thanks Sparky.
>
> We have called you an ambulance and we are all praying they will

mend your

> tortured heart.
>
> Now off to Mez's group to tell them about your TV Show experiences.
>
> Please post the same message to this group because there are quite

a few

> members who are not in Mez's group and maybe some good quality

chat will

> draw them over.
>

Mez, Kass -- will you ever respect me again?

Mark T-B.

P.S. I know a great store in the centre of London that can send
flowers and choccys to the U.S. REALLY QUICKLY!!!!!!

I got my BTB print today and it looks fantastic. Once I get this framed it will have a treasured place on my office wall. Thanks to Neil, Dave and Michael.

Greg P.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I got my print yesterday, after I went offline. Let me join in on the
chorus of those praising it: "All things bright and beautiful..."

I like the Red-White-Blue border around it, too. It goes along well
with the stripes on Brent's ship.

I spent more money on this excellent print than I did on the ticket
to see Burton's re-imagining of POTA... and the money I spent on THIS
item is more well-spent than the ticket price!

Just out of curiosity... a few questions regarding this image, and
the "BEWARE THE BEAST" comic it came from.

1. How close to the "green areas" on Cornelius' map is the site of
Brent's crashed ship? There are a number of little green shrubs in
the foreground, between Gideon and the ship -- shouldn't that mean
that Brent crashed much nearer to Ape City than Taylor's splashdown
site? Taylor, Dodge and Landon trekked for more than a day before
they found the first evidence of "Life... where there's one, there's
another... and another... and another..."

2. It was only after finding the little plant that Taylor's crew was
shadowed by the humans dwelling in the Hunt area and the Scarecrow
area. Presumably, the humans who corner Gideon at Brent's ship are
from Nova's tribe -- the gorilla "hunt club" must not have
rounded 'em all up. Or, is this some different tribe, moving in on
the territory after all of Nova's tribe was killed-or-captured?

3. Is the glyph on Gideon's glove taken from an actual photo image
from POTA? At some point, I'm gonna have to make a catalogue of pics
that show ALL of the ape-glyphs, from the Lawgiver's glyphs (both his
statue, and Mr. Huston's garb -- are they the same?) to Ursus' helmet-
and-chest/poncho glyphs, to the various chimp-glyphs, etc etc. Are
there glyphs on any gorilla gloves? Anybody got a pic with it on
there?

4. In the "BTB" comic, when Gideon climbs into the ANSA ship, we see
the interior -- which looks pretty much like Taylor's ship's
interior, indicating that the two ships from "PLANET" and "BENEATH"
are basically identical in design. In other words, what we can
actually SEE of the aft-end of Brent's ship -- the tripod landing
gear, etc -- is identical in design to what we CAN'T see under the
water when Taylor's ship is bobbing like a cork in the water. One
question, though: was the fire that Brent put out with the fire
extinguisher (which can be seen in the photo pic this poster is based
on) limited to OUTSIDE the ship? Was the ship's cabin sealed off well
enough to prevent any fire/smoke damage from the engine assembly from
seeping in? I sorta imagine Brent -- after the ship topples over onto
its belly (the tripod somehow being too unsturdy) -- having to drag
his 'Skipper' out through the escape hatch near the nosecone and also
using the fire extinguisher first to put out a fire in the BACK of
the cabin's interior, and THEN going outside to put out the rest of
the fuel-fire. But in "BTB", the interior looks rather 'clean', as if
the damage was reserved for the ship's exterior.

But that's just my take on it, folks.

5. One last thing: I don't want to knock the great job done on "BTB",
but I'm kinda wondering how it is that the humans in it are so
uncharacteristically confrontational with the gun-toting gorilla
Gideon. In both "PLANET" and "BENEATH", the humans seem to be
inordinately FEARFUL of the apes -- they react to hearing the horn by
running helter-skelter away. Granted, Julius tells Zira that "they're
ALL tame, until they take a chunk outta ya," which could indicate
that the humans WILL get violent, if given the right opportunity.
Perhaps this bunch in "BTB", knowing that Gideon is alone, and
knowing that the "boom-sticks" can only be fired so many times, also
knows that THIS is one ape they can successfully gang up on.

6. This is REALLY the last thing! Is Gideon supposed to be one of the
12 gorilla scouts that Ursus sent into the Forbidden Zone? Eleven out
of the twelve "disappeared... vanished into thin air", and Albina
tells Brent that they've "had them here, precisely where you're
standing"... And only ONE scout returned, having been accosted by the
mutants' illusions of "huge walls of fire... strange, violent
earthquakes": "...his mind gone -- shattered, no doubt, by some
unsimian torture!" How is it that Gideon -- if he is NOT one of the
scouts Ursus and Zaius talk about -- can be all by himself in the
Forbidden Zone, away from the Gorilla Army which at that very moment
is invading en masse through the Queensboro Plaza subway station
tunnels, etc.? There WERE other gorillas -- like the ones who chased
Brent and Nova to that "subterranean passage"; those gorillas must
have found that cave-entrance, since Zaius tells Ursus: "This must be
what your scouts reported: a subterranean passage..." And those
gorillas can be heard chatting earlier, when Brent peeks
out: "...We're near the Forbidden Zone, that's what I think." "That's
where the Army's headed!" "Great! They'll roll right over us, blow us
to bits!" "Why can't we go back to our outfits?" "Because the Sarge
says to keep looking until we find 'em..." etc. In other words, this
group of gorillas is probably from a border garrison -- like
a "border patrol" force, perhaps ordered into place after the return
of the lone surviving scout. But they want to get back to their
regular army forces, their "outfits", so that they can be deployed
with the invading army -- rather than be in-the-way when the
juggernaut plows ahead. But Gideon is out there alone... Why?

Maybe the author of "BTB" can offer up some background/plot stuff, to
answer this conundrum...?

Great job, again, on this poster art, Neil. They should've looked YOU
up when they made the POTA comics for Adventure. Man, I couldn't
stand their art -- you couldn't tell which species of ape each
individual was from! I'm bettin' they'd still be making POTA comics
if they had had artwork as terrific as this BTB poster. Congrats!

Patrick Tilton
EARTH-TIME 09-16-2004

Thanks, Michael. I was wondering. I'm really looking forward to its
arrival.

Anthony

On Sep 15, 2004, at 7:08 PM, Whitty, Michael wrote:

> We'd better get this beaten up old POTA franchise back up again for
> your
> baby and the next generation, or they are going to find it hard to
> explain
> to their friends what this "Planet of the Apes" thing is! ;)
>
> Great to see another happy recipient.
>
> Hunter, you should get yours any day now as should you Anthony.
>
> Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "patrickmichaeltilton" wrote:

> I like the Red-White-Blue border around it, too. It goes along

well with the stripes on Brent's ship.

Thanks Pat, that was no accident.

> 1. How close to the "green areas" on Cornelius' map is the site

of Brent's crashed ship?

Sorry mate, I've no idea.

>There are a number of little green shrubs in the foreground,

between Gideon and the ship -- shouldn't that mean

> that Brent crashed much nearer to Ape City than Taylor's

splashdown site?

I don't think the shrubs were intended to 'mean' anything, Pat ,
other than to add a little visual interest to the illustration.

> 2. Presumably, the humans who corner Gideon at Brent's ship

are from Nova's tribe.

(Shrug) Does that matter? It didn't to me when writing the story

> 3. Is the glyph on Gideon's glove taken from an actual photo

image from POTA?

I don't think so, but Neil can best answer that one.

> 4. In the "BTB" comic, when Gideon climbs into the ANSA ship,

we see the interior -- which looks pretty much like Taylor's ship's

> interior, indicating that the two ships from "PLANET" and

"BENEATH" are basically identical in design.

We needed SOMETHING for reference, I suggested Taylor's
ship. A generic interior if you willI.

>Was the fire that Brent put out with the fire
> extinguisher (which can be seen in the photo pic this poster is

based

> on) limited to OUTSIDE the ship?

In my opinion, no.

Was the ship's cabin sealed off well enough to prevent any
fire/smoke damage from seeping in?

Maybe for a limited time but again, in my opinion, no

In "BTB", the interior looks rather 'clean', as if

> the damage was reserved for the ship's exterior.

I don't think Neil, Mike or I ever discussed the extent of the
damage. There comes a point where you have to stop talking
and just get something done. The illustration succesfully
implied SOME level of damage... that was more than enough for
me.

5. I'm kinda wondering how it is that the humans in it are so

> uncharacteristically confrontational

Many wild (and tame) animals can be uncharacteristically
confrontational if you are foolish enough to threaten thier babies.
The humans only 'turn' when Gideon is about to kill the
new-born.

> Perhaps this bunch in "BTB", knowing that Gideon is alone,

and

> knowing that the "boom-sticks" can only be fired so many

times, also

> knows that THIS is one ape they can successfully gang up on.

Bingo! That too :0)

> 6. Is Gideon supposed to be one of the
> 12 gorilla scouts that Ursus sent into the Forbidden Zone?

No, he isn't.

How is it that Gideon -- if he is NOT one of the

> scouts Ursus and Zaius talk about -- can be all by himself in

the

> Forbidden Zone?

He WASN'T in the Forbidden zone at the beginning of the story. It
was his refusal to let the human be 'The one that got away' that
led him there. I don't spell it out but I intended for him to be a
Govt. sponsered exterminator. A pest control specialist,
hunter/trapper who (perhaps) chooses to work alone. Maybe he
disapears into the wilderness for months at a time and so may
have been unaware of all the commotion back in town.

I suspect these answers won't fully satisfy you, Pat and I do
apologise if that's the case but as you know, I'm not one who
gets too hung up on detail or let facts get in the way of the story.

Dave B

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Dave B" <smugster@b...> wrote:

> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton" wrote:
> >There are a number of little green shrubs in the foreground,

between Gideon and the ship -- shouldn't that mean that Brent
crashed much nearer to Ape City than Taylor's splashdown site?

> I don't think the shrubs were intended to 'mean' anything, Pat ,
> other than to add a little visual interest to the illustration.

-- No the shrubs were not intended to mean anything, neither were
they just there to 'add a little visual interest'. They are there
because If you check out Beneath or any photos of Brent's ship's
crash site you can quite clearly see shrubs all around the area.
Just trying for authenticity (as I usually do)

> > 3. Is the glyph on Gideon's glove taken from an actual photo

image from POTA?

> I don't think so, but Neil can best answer that one.

-- Actually it is based on a proper glyph. It is based on the one on
Julius' chest and was also seen on the bandollier of the gorilla who
chats with Zaius at the outside cage in Planet. It only varies very
slightly.

>> In "BTB", the interior looks rather 'clean', as if the damage was

reserved for the ship's exterior.

> I don't think Neil, Mike or I ever discussed the extent of the

damage. There comes a point where you have to stop talking and just
get something done. The illustration succesfully implied SOME level
of damage... that was more than enough for me.


-- I thought I put quite a bit of fire damage in the interior of the
ship. True most of it can be mainly seen at the rear of the cabin
but that is where the most damage is on the outside too.

>> How is it that Gideon -- if he is NOT one of the scouts Ursus and

Zaius talk about -- can be all by himself in the Forbidden Zone?

> He WASN'T in the Forbidden zone at the beginning of the story. It

was his refusal to let the human be 'The one that got away' that led
him there. I don't spell it out but I intended for him to be a Govt.
sponsered exterminator. A pest control specialist, hunter/trapper
who (perhaps) chooses to work alone. Maybe he disapears into the
wilderness for months at a time and so may have been unaware of all
the commotion back in town.


-- Really? I thought you did sort of spell it out - Page 2 top
panel - " current employer: Ape City Extermination Authority..."
(Also this was one of the reasons that he had the glyphs on his
gloves and wore his bandollier around his waist like a belt - to
distinguish him from the normal run of the mill gorilla soldiers)

> I suspect these answers won't fully satisfy you, Pat and I do

apologise if that's the case but as you know, I'm not one who gets
too hung up on detail or let facts get in the way of the story.


-- Well give Pat a bit of credit, these answers very well may
satisfy him, let's hope so. If you have any more questions about the
comic though Pat please go ahead and ask and I'll happily try to
give you the best answers I can.

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@i...>
wrote:

> Thanks, Michael. I was wondering. I'm really looking forward to

its arrival.

Oops! You will be waiting a little bit longer Anthony. Due to a
slight cock-up (my fault!) Yours and Hunter's prints did not get
sent out with the first lot.

But they are defintely comming! I really, really am sorry about the
delay please accept my sincere apologies.

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "patrickmichaeltilton"
<patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:

> Great job, again, on this poster art, Neil.

Thanks very much Patrick. I'm really glad that you and everyone else
who has received theirs so far are also happy with it.

Neil

I was just wondering if there is any news on the Return to the
Planet of the Apes cartoons that were being put onto DVD?

Any news on when or if they will be available?

Neil

Some questions from a POTA fan sent to me:

1) In the first movie, four astronauts are sent into outer space attempting to go into the future. My question is why would NASA spend millions of taxpayers dollars to fund this? What would be the benefit to Earth for this effort? Also, their space ship is not equipped to land and then launch back into space, so anything they discover would stay with them.

2) Also in the first movie, you'd think Taylor would guess he was on Earth, considering the planet had oxygen, oceans, trees, clouds and cornfields. Plus, the apes rode horses, used shotguns, and spoke English. Yet Taylor thinks he's on another planet until the end of the movie.

3) In the sequel, a rescue ship is sent to find Taylor. This ship is similar to the first one: in other words, it too is not equipped to land and blast off again. There is no way it could. So why was it sent? In the 1970's, as now, space ships need HUGE liquid fuel tanks to escape a planet's or moon's gravity.

4) This next point really puzzles me. At the end of movie two, the earth is destroyed by a neutron bomb. At the beginning of the third film, we learn that three of the apes have somehow found Taylor's ship at the bottom of the lake, raised it, cleaned it up, and magically launched it into outer space just as the bomb was destroying the earth. This is all the more amazing since The apes in the first movie didn't even think flight was possible. Now all of a sudden, they're piloting space ships. I enjoyed the 3rd movie a lot, but I really think this is a huge gap in logic.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Funny you should ask!

I noticed that one of the prizes for the "30th Anniversary Celebration" of
the TV Shows Competition is "Return" on DVD.

I sent an email to Hunter asking if this was supposed to be the ones he is
doing, but I don't have a response yet.

Then I think someone (not sure who) said to me in a private email that
Hunter promised to have the Return DVDs ready for prize time.

I actually received a great set of "Return" DVDs for my birthday and I'd
like to offer these FREE OF CHARGE to anybody who wants them. These are for
the PAL system so it would only be any good for those who can play "PAL"
DVDs.

The tapes I got were a very good quality (well, you can tell the toons were
not transmitted in the best quality in the first place, but they are VERY
watchable) - I am fairly picky about quality and they passed my test!

These will probably be NOTHING like the ones Hunter eventually makes, but
may fill the void until those do appear. With the "Extended Battle" DVDs
Hunter tweaked the sound and created great menus. I have simply copied a
good source to DVD and Thumbnailed the episodes. You can opt for 3 discs
with 5, 5 and 3 episodes or for one disc with the whole story edited
together (missing the opening and closing titles).

I am discussing with group owners at the moment a "celebration of Return"
(similar to the current TV Show Celebrations) when we are all equipped with
these. At the moment the "grand prize" will be an original Animation Cel
from Return or Sideshow figures - some feedback on what people would prefer
would be great. That's not to say you shouldn't tell us your impression
when you get the DVD but it might be nice to do a viewing and comment on
episodes over a 13 week span too.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil [nfoster@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:21 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Return DVDs


I was just wondering if there is any news on the Return to the
Planet of the Apes cartoons that were being put onto DVD?

Any news on when or if they will be available?

Neil







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

>I'd like to offer these FREE OF CHARGE to anybody who wants them.

These are for the PAL system so it would only be any good for those
who can play "PAL" DVDs.

-- Awesome! Put me down for a set please!

> I am discussing with group owners at the moment a "celebration of

Return" (similar to the current TV Show Celebrations) when we are
all equipped with these. At the moment the "grand prize" will be an
original Animation Cel from Return or Sideshow figures - some
feedback on what people would prefer would be great.

-- This sounds like a great idea. I would opt for the Animation cel
myself (as long as it isn't one of that bloody flying dragon bird
thing!)

Neil

Oh crap, you had to say that didn't you? ;)

Now I have to go and pay REAL money for a Cel!

OK - I'll send you a set tomorrow Neil.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil [nfoster@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:22 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Return DVDs - FREE TO A GOOD HOME.


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

>I'd like to offer these FREE OF CHARGE to anybody who wants them.

These are for the PAL system so it would only be any good for those
who can play "PAL" DVDs.

-- Awesome! Put me down for a set please!

> I am discussing with group owners at the moment a "celebration of

Return" (similar to the current TV Show Celebrations) when we are
all equipped with these. At the moment the "grand prize" will be an
original Animation Cel from Return or Sideshow figures - some
feedback on what people would prefer would be great.

-- This sounds like a great idea. I would opt for the Animation cel
myself (as long as it isn't one of that bloody flying dragon bird
thing!)

Neil







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> OK - I'll send you a set tomorrow Neil.

-- Great, thanks Michael. The only bad thing is they won't get
here 'til Monday at the earliest! Oh well, gives me something to
look forward to!!

I really have been waiting a long time to see decent watchable
copies of the cartoon so I suppose I can wait a LITTLE longer!

Neil

Well, I just sent them "Same Day" delivery so you will have them in a few
hours!

Let me know when you get them and what you think of them OK?

I sent you the 3 DVD version.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil [nfoster@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:33 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Return DVDs - FREE TO A GOOD HOME.


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> OK - I'll send you a set tomorrow Neil.

-- Great, thanks Michael. The only bad thing is they won't get
here 'til Monday at the earliest! Oh well, gives me something to
look forward to!!

I really have been waiting a long time to see decent watchable
copies of the cartoon so I suppose I can wait a LITTLE longer!

Neil







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> Well, I just sent them "Same Day" delivery so you will have them

in a few hours!

>
> Let me know when you get them and what you think of them OK?
>
> I sent you the 3 DVD version.

-- Cool! Thanks mate. I will be keeping a look out for them.

Neil

And I can't fire him either! Maybe I'll just taunt him and force him back
to the cellar to draw more apes....

Sorry bout that guys. Neil - get to work!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil [nfoster@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: The Print!


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@i...>
wrote:

> Thanks, Michael. I was wondering. I'm really looking forward to its

arrival.

Oops! You will be waiting a little bit longer Anthony. Due to a slight
cock-up (my fault!) Yours and Hunter's prints did not get sent out with the
first lot.

But they are defintely comming! I really, really am sorry about the delay
please accept my sincere apologies.

Neil







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kass,

I can't find this on your site!

Could you please send me a direct link?

Michael






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Michael... do you want some help with shipping these DVD's are are these an open offer for EVERYONE or just your friends "downunder" ;)

Since my DVD player is all region I'd love a set!

-Chris

"Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@...> wrote:
Oh crap, you had to say that didn't you? ;)

Now I have to go and pay REAL money for a Cel!

OK - I'll send you a set tomorrow Neil.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Neil [nfoster@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 10:22 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Return DVDs - FREE TO A GOOD HOME.


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

>I'd like to offer these FREE OF CHARGE to anybody who wants them.

These are for the PAL system so it would only be any good for those
who can play "PAL" DVDs.

-- Awesome! Put me down for a set please!

> I am discussing with group owners at the moment a "celebration of

Return" (similar to the current TV Show Celebrations) when we are
all equipped with these. At the moment the "grand prize" will be an
original Animation Cel from Return or Sideshow figures - some
feedback on what people would prefer would be great.

-- This sounds like a great idea. I would opt for the Animation cel
myself (as long as it isn't one of that bloody flying dragon bird
thing!)

Neil







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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---------------------------------

Hi Chris.

The DVD is ZONE free, however, it is in PAL and I don't think it will play
on your system without a NTSC Conversion!

I can send it to Hunter who could convert this one and burn a few, but I
don't know if it is worth doing that if his will be available
soon....Hunter?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: HollowedOut [at_deaths_door@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 12:09 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Return DVDs - FREE TO A GOOD HOME.


Hey Michael... do you want some help with shipping these DVD's are are these
an open offer for EVERYONE or just your friends "downunder" ;)

Since my DVD player is all region I'd love a set!

-Chris

"Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@...> wrote:
Oh crap, you had to say that didn't you? ;)

Now I have to go and pay REAL money for a Cel!

OK - I'll send you a set tomorrow Neil.

Michael







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

If one views the movies as fantasy,they do not need to be totally logical.
Elaine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For those of you who are not going to other sites to celebrate the 35th
Anniversary of the TV Show, I think there are a few important questions
about that first show.

The first would be the DOG in the show.

Many people believe it is placed there for a REASON....what do you think?

Michael






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It really is difficult to explain to people just how much value there is on
this print...I am going to bet it is batter than you originally thought it
would be, Patrick?

I was blown away by the paper thickness and colours.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print


I got my print yesterday, after I went offline. Let me join in on the
chorus of those praising it: "All things bright and beautiful..."








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Who came up with that one?

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print


I like the Red-White-Blue border around it, too. It goes along well
with the stripes on Brent's ship.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm predicting this print will actually be worth a pretty penny when the
comics are published!

We'll see.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print


I spent more money on this excellent print than I did on the ticket
to see Burton's re-imagining of POTA... and the money I spent on THIS
item is more well-spent than the ticket price!







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As editor, I did think about this one too (really, I do think sometimes!).

I was actually quite blown away by just HOW MUCH thought Neil put into these
images Patrick - not quite at your level but man, he really thought about it
(so much so that he realised the inside of the ship would have to be a
proportional mismatch!).

When I quizzed Neil on this he referred me back to the DVD and there I saw
little shrubs! So I guess we have just found another one for you to explain
Patrick? ;)

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print


Just out of curiosity... a few questions regarding this image, and
the "BEWARE THE BEAST" comic it came from.

1. How close to the "green areas" on Cornelius' map is the site of
Brent's crashed ship? There are a number of little green shrubs in
the foreground, between Gideon and the ship -- shouldn't that mean
that Brent crashed much nearer to Ape City than Taylor's splashdown
site? Taylor, Dodge and Landon trekked for more than a day before
they found the first evidence of "Life... where there's one, there's
another... and another... and another..."








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When I read the script for the comic I assumed them to be another tribe -
but Dave woulod have to explain.

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print


2. It was only after finding the little plant that Taylor's crew was
shadowed by the humans dwelling in the Hunt area and the Scarecrow
area. Presumably, the humans who corner Gideon at Brent's ship are
from Nova's tribe -- the gorilla "hunt club" must not have
rounded 'em all up. Or, is this some different tribe, moving in on
the territory after all of Nova's tribe was killed-or-captured?







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I recall this is the same Glyph as seen on another ape - Marcus?

Neil wanted Gideon to stand out and I think it works really well this Glyph
- looks like it really belongs there.

Patrick, I too want to have a complete collection of every POTA Glyph! Then
I could study them and attempt to make meaning out of them - is that your
intention too?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print


3. Is the glyph on Gideon's glove taken from an actual photo image
from POTA? At some point, I'm gonna have to make a catalogue of pics
that show ALL of the ape-glyphs, from the Lawgiver's glyphs (both his
statue, and Mr. Huston's garb -- are they the same?) to Ursus' helmet-
and-chest/poncho glyphs, to the various chimp-glyphs, etc etc. Are
there glyphs on any gorilla gloves? Anybody got a pic with it on
there?







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hmmm.....good question!

From what I can tell all the interior damage in BTB is at the rear.....

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print


4. In the "BTB" comic, when Gideon climbs into the ANSA ship, we see
the interior -- which looks pretty much like Taylor's ship's
interior, indicating that the two ships from "PLANET" and "BENEATH"
are basically identical in design. In other words, what we can
actually SEE of the aft-end of Brent's ship -- the tripod landing
gear, etc -- is identical in design to what we CAN'T see under the
water when Taylor's ship is bobbing like a cork in the water. One
question, though: was the fire that Brent put out with the fire
extinguisher (which can be seen in the photo pic this poster is based
on) limited to OUTSIDE the ship? Was the ship's cabin sealed off well
enough to prevent any fire/smoke damage from the engine assembly from
seeping in? I sorta imagine Brent -- after the ship topples over onto
its belly (the tripod somehow being too unsturdy) -- having to drag
his 'Skipper' out through the escape hatch near the nosecone and also
using the fire extinguisher first to put out a fire in the BACK of
the cabin's interior, and THEN going outside to put out the rest of
the fuel-fire. But in "BTB", the interior looks rather 'clean', as if
the damage was reserved for the ship's exterior.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The reaction to the Horn is a reaction to a hunting party....not an
individual who is facing a tribe (and then tribes) of humans.

I don't know what Dave intended, but I sensed a sort of "telepathy" as per
"Conquest" where suddenly all the humans in the area "commected" and joined
in uncharacteristic behaviour.....possibly because they had an animal
instinct that the end is near....

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print


5. One last thing: I don't want to knock the great job done on "BTB",
but I'm kinda wondering how it is that the humans in it are so
uncharacteristically confrontational with the gun-toting gorilla
Gideon. In both "PLANET" and "BENEATH", the humans seem to be
inordinately FEARFUL of the apes -- they react to hearing the horn by
running helter-skelter away. Granted, Julius tells Zira that "they're
ALL tame, until they take a chunk outta ya," which could indicate
that the humans WILL get violent, if given the right opportunity.
Perhaps this bunch in "BTB", knowing that Gideon is alone, and
knowing that the "boom-sticks" can only be fired so many times, also
knows that THIS is one ape they can successfully gang up on.

6. This is REALLY the last thing! Is Gideon supposed to be one of the
12 gorilla scouts that Ursus sent into the Forbidden Zone? Eleven out
of the twelve "disappeared... vanished into thin air", and Albina
tells Brent that they've "had them here, precisely where you're
standing"... And only ONE scout returned, having been accosted by the
mutants' illusions of "huge walls of fire... strange, violent
earthquakes": "...his mind gone -- shattered, no doubt, by some
unsimian torture!" How is it that Gideon -- if he is NOT one of the
scouts Ursus and Zaius talk about -- can be all by himself in the
Forbidden Zone, away from the Gorilla Army which at that very moment
is invading en masse through the Queensboro Plaza subway station
tunnels, etc.? There WERE other gorillas -- like the ones who chased
Brent and Nova to that "subterranean passage"; those gorillas must
have found that cave-entrance, since Zaius tells Ursus: "This must be
what your scouts reported: a subterranean passage..." And those
gorillas can be heard chatting earlier, when Brent peeks
out: "...We're near the Forbidden Zone, that's what I think." "That's
where the Army's headed!" "Great! They'll roll right over us, blow us
to bits!" "Why can't we go back to our outfits?" "Because the Sarge
says to keep looking until we find 'em..." etc. In other words, this
group of gorillas is probably from a border garrison -- like
a "border patrol" force, perhaps ordered into place after the return
of the lone surviving scout. But they want to get back to their
regular army forces, their "outfits", so that they can be deployed
with the invading army -- rather than be in-the-way when the
juggernaut plows ahead. But Gideon is out there alone... Why?

Maybe the author of "BTB" can offer up some background/plot stuff, to
answer this conundrum...?

Great job, again, on this poster art, Neil. They should've looked YOU
up when they made the POTA comics for Adventure. Man, I couldn't
stand their art -- you couldn't tell which species of ape each
individual was from! I'm bettin' they'd still be making POTA comics
if they had had artwork as terrific as this BTB poster. Congrats!

Patrick Tilton
EARTH-TIME 09-16-2004








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think Gideon is a loner "exterminator", like the guys who get a special
license to cull kangaroos!

He must have missed Ursus' speech!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print

6. This is REALLY the last thing! Is Gideon supposed to be one of the
12 gorilla scouts that Ursus sent into the Forbidden Zone? Eleven out
of the twelve "disappeared... vanished into thin air", and Albina
tells Brent that they've "had them here, precisely where you're
standing"... And only ONE scout returned, having been accosted by the
mutants' illusions of "huge walls of fire... strange, violent
earthquakes": "...his mind gone -- shattered, no doubt, by some
unsimian torture!" How is it that Gideon -- if he is NOT one of the
scouts Ursus and Zaius talk about -- can be all by himself in the
Forbidden Zone, away from the Gorilla Army which at that very moment
is invading en masse through the Queensboro Plaza subway station
tunnels, etc.? There WERE other gorillas -- like the ones who chased
Brent and Nova to that "subterranean passage"; those gorillas must
have found that cave-entrance, since Zaius tells Ursus: "This must be
what your scouts reported: a subterranean passage..." And those
gorillas can be heard chatting earlier, when Brent peeks
out: "...We're near the Forbidden Zone, that's what I think." "That's
where the Army's headed!" "Great! They'll roll right over us, blow us
to bits!" "Why can't we go back to our outfits?" "Because the Sarge
says to keep looking until we find 'em..." etc. In other words, this
group of gorillas is probably from a border garrison -- like
a "border patrol" force, perhaps ordered into place after the return
of the lone surviving scout. But they want to get back to their
regular army forces, their "outfits", so that they can be deployed
with the invading army -- rather than be in-the-way when the
juggernaut plows ahead. But Gideon is out there alone... Why?







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I was just reviewing the Amok Time site to see if they had any
more Medicoms and noticed that the Zaius and Cornelius
figures are supposed to be out THIS MONTH!!! Both are listed
as "coming in September." Wonder if that'll really happen as
planned....

Interestingly enough, Taylor, Zira, the Gorilla Soldier and the
Lawgiver aren't due until November and the Slave Taylor and
Nova two-pack isn't due until January of 2005!

Will

Well, we are making up for it now!

At the moment I am just waiting to hear from Fox about who holds the license
for Classic POTA comics.

The comic is being test printed (in two parts, with 7 extra pages), Neil is
starting work on the next comic (a 22 page story in the TV Show
environment!) and I am discussing with Gary Challoner his next POTA comic -
he is really keen to do a sequel to Urchak (one of the GOOD Adventure
comics!).

It is a great time for POTA comics.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: patrickmichaeltilton [patrickmichaeltilton@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 1:01 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST print

Great job, again, on this poster art, Neil. They should've looked YOU
up when they made the POTA comics for Adventure. Man, I couldn't
stand their art -- you couldn't tell which species of ape each
individual was from! I'm bettin' they'd still be making POTA comics
if they had had artwork as terrific as this BTB poster. Congrats!

Patrick Tilton
EARTH-TIME 09-16-2004







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can't wait for these, Will!

I doubt the first ones will be in September.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: will5967 [will5967@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:23 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Zaius and Cornelius Coming in September!


I was just reviewing the Amok Time site to see if they had any
more Medicoms and noticed that the Zaius and Cornelius
figures are supposed to be out THIS MONTH!!! Both are listed
as "coming in September." Wonder if that'll really happen as
planned....

Interestingly enough, Taylor, Zira, the Gorilla Soldier and the
Lawgiver aren't due until November and the Slave Taylor and
Nova two-pack isn't due until January of 2005!

Will







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> I don't know what Dave intended, but I sensed a sort of "telepathy" as per
> "Conquest" where suddenly all the humans in the area "commected" and

joined

> in uncharacteristic behaviour.....possibly because they had an animal
> instinct that the end is near....
>
> Michael

I can't honestly say I ever considered telepathy, although that is a very
interesting idea. Maybe living in and around the Zone these wild humans
have developed a far more primitive form of the powers possesed by the
Mutants? All I can say I DID consider was that these humans are animals with
a pack or herd instinct. As can be seen in the wild it only takes one to get an
idea in its head and the rest will often follow. I also referred to that scene in
Planet when Taylor pushes Nova roughly away after she attempts to wipe out
his message written in the sand. This prompts others of her tribe(?) to get
excited and within a few moments he's taking on all-comers!

Dave

Another thing I assumed about BTB, Dave, was that it is really a story about
futility......the futility of warring with each other (whether the same
species, race etc or humans and apes) when in the end we are all dust - we
are all equal.

So what was all that violence in aid of - know what I mean? Was this
intended Dave?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave B [smugster@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:34 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: BEWARE THE BEAST print


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> I don't know what Dave intended, but I sensed a sort of "telepathy" as per
> "Conquest" where suddenly all the humans in the area "commected" and

joined

> in uncharacteristic behaviour.....possibly because they had an animal
> instinct that the end is near....
>
> Michael

I can't honestly say I ever considered telepathy, although that is a very
interesting idea. Maybe living in and around the Zone these wild humans
have developed a far more primitive form of the powers possesed by the
Mutants? All I can say I DID consider was that these humans are animals with

a pack or herd instinct. As can be seen in the wild it only takes one to get
an
idea in its head and the rest will often follow. I also referred to that
scene in
Planet when Taylor pushes Nova roughly away after she attempts to wipe out
his message written in the sand. This prompts others of her tribe(?) to get
excited and within a few moments he's taking on all-comers!

Dave







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> I think Gideon is a loner "exterminator", like the guys who get a special
> license to cull kangaroos!
>
> He must have missed Ursus' speech!
>
> Michael

I think so to, (Can't vouch for the kangaroo bit though!) I also think it's very cool
that people are wondering about him and his back story. Personally I think
there might have been a very good reason why he wasn't in the army. Some
past indescretion perhaps?

Dave

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> Another thing I assumed about BTB, Dave, was that it is really a story about
> futility......the futility of warring with each other (whether the same
> species, race etc or humans and apes) when in the end we are all dust - we
> are all equal.
>
> So what was all that violence in aid of - know what I mean? Was this
> intended Dave?
>
> Michael

Absolutely, but I can't take credit for that either. That, I think , was just a natural
extension of the messages that can be clearly seen in POTA as a whole. I was
just playing with someone else's toys and making sure I put them back in the
cupboard as I found them.

Dave

Maybe it was an extension of that same instinct Dave? ;)

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave B [smugster@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:46 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: BEWARE THE BEAST print


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> Another thing I assumed about BTB, Dave, was that it is really a story

about

> futility......the futility of warring with each other (whether the same
> species, race etc or humans and apes) when in the end we are all dust - we
> are all equal.
>
> So what was all that violence in aid of - know what I mean? Was this
> intended Dave?
>
> Michael

Absolutely, but I can't take credit for that either. That, I think , was
just a natural extension of the messages that can be clearly seen in POTA as
a whole. I was just playing with someone else's toys and making sure I put
them back in the
cupboard as I found them.

Dave







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree it is great that it has people thinking - he is such a mysterious
character! I think mainly he is just not disciplined and can't follow
orders!

The mystique is reminiscent, to me, of the man with no name!

When I first read the script I was going to suggest no name, but then Gideon
just sound so....right......!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave B [smugster@...]
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:42 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: BEWARE THE BEAST print


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> I think Gideon is a loner "exterminator", like the guys who get a special
> license to cull kangaroos!
>
> He must have missed Ursus' speech!
>
> Michael

I think so to, (Can't vouch for the kangaroo bit though!) I also think it's
very cool
that people are wondering about him and his back story. Personally I think
there might have been a very good reason why he wasn't in the army. Some
past indescretion perhaps?

Dave







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 9/17/04 1:24 AM, Whitty, Michael at Michael.Whitty@... wrote:

I can't wait for these, Will!

I doubt the first ones will be in September.

Michael



You may be right. It's already half way through September and there's no
sign of them yet.

Will


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

One issuer of this magazine featured a cover painting based upon POTA. I've
never seen a really good, clean scan of it, can anybody provide one or at
least tell me who the artist was?

From the small pix I HAVE seen it looks to be in the style of Frank Frazetta or
Boris Vallejo, very 'heroic'.

Dave

> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Dave B" <smugster@b...> wrote:

> > I suspect these answers won't fully satisfy you, Pat and I do
> apologise if that's the case but as you know, I'm not one who gets
> too hung up on detail or let facts get in the way of the story.

I've re-read that and it didn't come out too well. This wasn't intended as a slur
against Pat, rather it was meant as a criticism of myself.

Dave B

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> Many people believe it is placed there for a REASON....what do you think?

I think it's a VERY convincing arguement for a 'different' universe setting and it
can certainly be viewed as confirmation of that belief. However, for followers
of a 'same' universe theory, (myself included) equally convincing arguements
can be made to justify its prescence.

Personally, the cynic in me isn't too convinced that the producers took quite
that much care over the TV show and in this case the dog 'is just a dog' - The
reason for its existance is whatever the individual wants it to be.

Dave

Great point Dave.

I always thought it was a flub, but recently I have changed my mind
and I now think that they must have done SOME research and that the
dog means either:

(a) this is NOT the movies universe; or

(b) this is not the POST ESCAPE timeline....ie this is from the
period PRIOR to Taylor landing and where there was no Cornelius and
Zira - they are yet to come!

What do you think CYNTWAT? ;)

Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Dave B" <smugster@b...> wrote:
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...>
> wrote:
>
> > Many people believe it is placed there for a REASON....what do
you think?
>
> I think it's a VERY convincing arguement for a 'different'
universe setting and it
> can certainly be viewed as confirmation of that belief. However,
for followers
> of a 'same' universe theory, (myself included) equally convincing
arguements
> can be made to justify its prescence.
>
> Personally, the cynic in me isn't too convinced that the producers
took quite
> that much care over the TV show and in this case the dog 'is just
a dog' - The
> reason for its existance is whatever the individual wants it to be.
>
> Dave

> I can send it to Hunter who could convert this one and burn a few, but I
> don't know if it is worth doing that if his will be available
> soon....Hunter?

I have started the work of capturing. I'm experimenting right now
with various bitrates to get the best picture I can while not taking
up 7 discs. I hope to have the discs completed within the next month.

Hunter

In a message dated 9/17/2004 4:13:40 AM Central Standard Time,
Michael.Whitty@... writes:

> (b) this is not the POST ESCAPE timeline....ie this is from the
> period PRIOR to Taylor landing and where there was no Cornelius and
> Zira - they are yet to come!

That's right!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Dave B" <smugster@b...> wrote:

> > --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Dave B" <smugster@b...> wrote:
>
> > > I suspect these answers won't fully satisfy you, Pat and I do

apologise if that's the case but as you know, I'm not one who gets
too hung up on detail or let facts get in the way of the story.

>
> I've re-read that and it didn't come out too well. This wasn't

intended as a slur against Pat, rather it was meant as a criticism of
myself.

>
> Dave B

*** Rest assured, I didn't take it as a slur. I'll be the first to
declare that Paul Dehn was the type who didn't let facts get in the
way of the story -- he certainly didn't pay all that much attention
to the 'facts'/details in the original film when he started writing
its first sequel.

And, hey, I'll admit that I sorta AM "hung up on detail", but that's
not necessarily a bad thing. It works for me. My own way of taking
the 'canonical' details and making 'em make more sense in light of a
new reinterpretation, rather than the lesser sense they made in
Dehn's scenario, has led to a series of extrapolations based on that
reinterpretation that is a veritable motherlode of source-material
for background story.

Here's one for-instance: In "CONQUEST" we see Kolp and Hoskyns using
a new invention (the Authenticator) in a sinister fashion, trying to
compel Armando to betray his foster-son unwittingly...

... But is the Authenticator's invention a BAD thing? Think of what
it could do for the world! Every innocent person convicted of a crime
could have his lawyer petition the Courts to subject the convict to
the Authenticator -- and if a Questioner asks, "Did you murder So-and-
so?", the person convicted of that murder would be FORCED to tell the
truth: "No, I did NOT!"

I can imagine how all the innocent people behind bars could get
pardons for the crimes they did NOT commit yet were unjustly
convicted of. I can imagine the government passing a Constitutional
amendment to override the 5th Amendment clause against "self-
incrimination" -- so that ANY suspect could be questioned under the
Authenticator, and ruled out if he/she passes with flying colors...
or charged with a crime when the culprit finds him/herself forced by
the machine into admitting the truth. OJ wouldn't be out playin'
golf... he'd be sitting in a small prison cell, paying his debt to
society for murdering two people. No "dream team" could've saved OJ,
if he could've been subjected to the Authenticator.

Imagine a Presidential debate, where both (or ALL) of the candidates
not only have to answer questions posed to them by a panel of
questioners, but do so while under the truth-forcing influence of an
Authenticator! "Do you, George W. Bush, really mean it when you say
that Jesus is your role-model?" How would he answer? If "Yes", then
at least he's sincere in his belief that Jesus would've gone to war
for the ostensible purposes of finding and destroying WMDs... but
if "No", then that would prove that he's just lying to the
electorate, trying to woo the Religious Right for their votes by
pretending to consider Jesus his philosophical linchpin.

Imagine if people couldn't get married unless they could truthfully
say that they're doing so out of LOVE for their prospective wife or
husband -- with the Authenticator forcing that truth out.
Question: "Are you interested in marrying him/her for his/her money,
or do you really love him/her?" No golddigger could fool a dupe into
marrying him or her, if an Authenticator could FORCE you to tell the
truth.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Society could -- and probably
would -- be so transformed by such an invention, that we can't
imagine how different it would be to live in a world where you can
KNOW beyond ANY doubt the absolute Truth about someone's inner
thoughts/motivations/beliefs. No fake "faith-healers" could flimflam
any crowd of needy, gullible people in need of a miracle to cure
them. No terrorist could get past an Immigration interrogator and
join a "sleeper cell" if an Authenticator could FORCE him to admit
his intention to commit acts of terrorism when "activated" by a
higher-up in an Al-Qaeda type organization. Think of the boon
to "Homeland Security" the Authenticator would be!

"CONQUEST" takes place in 1991, and "BATTLE" -- I would argue --
takes place probably in 2018 (due to Mandemus' line about overseeing
the Armory for "27 years"). The nuke war happens sometime between
these two dates, probably 12 years before "BATTLE" (Mendez mentions
that Kolp's hostilities will "break 12 years of peace"). In the years
AFTER the end of "CONQUEST" and BEFORE the nuke war, how would the
world change if the Authenticator technology were to become widely
used? Imagine somebody with a PORTABLE Authenticator, able to
influence somebody at a distance: he/she could FORCE anybody they
come into contact with to be TRUTHFUL. Nobody could ever be a
successful liar in such a world, unless they could somehow build a
device that shielded them from the Authenticator's "truth-ray" (or
whatever the hell it is that it uses).

In "THE TRAP", Burke tells Urko about one of the posters on the wall,
for an "Electro-Neurological Monitor" or something like that. Unlike
the Authenticator -- which Armando did NOT know about -- here's this
gizmo that has a POSTER on the wall in a subway station. EVERYBODY
knows about it. Is it based on the same or a similar technology?

I could go on and on and on [Hey! Don't go saying that I already HAVE
gone on and on and on...!], but you get the idea. That ONE idea has
all sorts of implications that were never really capitalized on, but
that lend themselves to all sorts of speculations. I don't mind
being "hung up on the details" when those details can be great seeds
for further storylines/plots/etc.

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "patrickmichaeltilton"
<patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:

> ... But is the Authenticator's invention a BAD thing? Think of

what it could do for the world!

We as a species are all liars to one degree or another. I think
wide-spread and domestic use of these authnticators would be
the end of forming any kind of relationship but the most sterile.

A little 4 year old proudly shows you his picture of a cat... "That's
crap!" Your other half asks you "Does my bum look big in this."
Cue Divorce!

If I were to propose to you, Pat and you were to accept, your
answer would be an act of faith. Faith in me and my intentions
toward you - not based on science.

Being able to sort truths from lies and being able to choose what
we say in order to manipulate people's feelings is a skill I
wouldn't want to give over to machines so readily. Sure, it would
have it's uses in those scenarios you mention but Jeez Louise!
Is that a double edged sword!

I CAN see many advantages but I think they are far outweighed
by the dangers.

I once saw an episode of 'Sabrina' (there goes my credibility!)
where she cast a spell and none of her friends could lie - by the
end of the episode they all hated each other. Childish maybe but
I think the effect on the real world would be very much the same.

Dave

I talked to Marc at Alter Ego comics yesterday (he's the one I put
in my pre-order thru ) and he said that Sideshow gives a 30 shipping
notice on when the orders will be sent...and he had not recieved his
yet. So more than likely they will be shipping in October sometime.
On the Sideshow site...the anticipated release dates for Cornelius
and Dr. Zaius are Sept / Oct. so I wouldn't get my hopes up for them
to be out just yet. Like I said, probably sometime in October.

I am just as antsy to get mine too and am looking forward
to "displaying" them on my desk along with the custom 12" figures
that Chris Hight made for me.

Greg#2

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Will Hoover <will5967@v...> wrote:
> on 9/17/04 1:24 AM, Whitty, Michael at Michael.Whitty@d... wrote:
>
> I can't wait for these, Will!
>
> I doubt the first ones will be in September.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> You may be right. It's already half way through September and
there's no
> sign of them yet.
>
> Will
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

oops...I meant a 30 day shipping notice.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "greg" <gbharris1@y...> wrote:
> I talked to Marc at Alter Ego comics yesterday (he's the one I put
> in my pre-order thru ) and he said that Sideshow gives a 30
shipping
> notice on when the orders will be sent...and he had not recieved
his
> yet. So more than likely they will be shipping in October
sometime.
> On the Sideshow site...the anticipated release dates for Cornelius
> and Dr. Zaius are Sept / Oct. so I wouldn't get my hopes up for
them
> to be out just yet. Like I said, probably sometime in October.
>
> I am just as antsy to get mine too and am looking forward
> to "displaying" them on my desk along with the custom 12" figures
> that Chris Hight made for me.
>
> Greg#2

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> Many people believe it is placed there for a REASON....what do you

think?

-- Maybe the dog was placed there for the chimp kid to have a reason
to be out playing in the woods? ;-)

Neil

To my mind, the dog was purposeful. I don't feel the writers were drenched in canon before they wrote the script (insert cynical laugh), but surely they knew the major points of the movies? The dog was quite prominent, almost as if to make a point, to say, "and the tv show is different from the movies because of..."

Kass







---------------------------------

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> Well, I just sent them "Same Day" delivery so you will have them

in a few hours!
Let me know when you get them and what you think of them OK?
I sent you the 3 DVD version.

-- They arrived late yesterday arvo, thanks so much for that
Michael, that must have cost you a pretty penny to get them
delivered to me that quickly! Much appreciated.

I spent last night having a look at the DVDs and I must say you are
right they may not be the absolute best guality but they certainly
are VERY watchable. Much, much better than the crappy old copies I
had on VHS!

You can tell that the original broadcast quality of theses cartoons
was not that flash but at least I can really get into watching them
now.

Once again, thanks mate!

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> For those of you who are not going to other sites to celebrate the

35th Anniversary of the TV Show, I think there are a few important
questions about that first show.

-- After finally getting around to watching the first episode of the
TV series again one thing really struck me on this viewing - how
much of the stuff they recycled from the movies apart from the ape
clothes & rifles.
I noticed the bars from Taylor's cell from Beneath, the 'walls' from
the funeral scene from Planet, the spaceship, they used the same
stock shot of Ape city from the film, and is that log / tree trunk
near their crashed ship the same one that was in the outside pen in
Planet?

Did I miss anything?

Neil

The name "Zaius", and astro who misses "home" and one that does
not....they are two that come to mind!

I assume the Ape City they built for the (first two) movies was
dismantled by then - wonder if that's why Battle was set in the
trees?

I wish they did not use that footsge of Ape City - it does not look
right!

Makes me think - if the dog WAS there to state "different", why
didn't they just use a different Ape City? Oh boy, this is driving
me nuts!

Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil" <nfoster@h...> wrote:
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael"
> <Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:
> > For those of you who are not going to other sites to celebrate
the
> 35th Anniversary of the TV Show, I think there are a few important
> questions about that first show.
>
> -- After finally getting around to watching the first episode of
the
> TV series again one thing really struck me on this viewing - how
> much of the stuff they recycled from the movies apart from the ape
> clothes & rifles.
> I noticed the bars from Taylor's cell from Beneath, the 'walls'
from
> the funeral scene from Planet, the spaceship, they used the same
> stock shot of Ape city from the film, and is that log / tree trunk
> near their crashed ship the same one that was in the outside pen
in
> Planet?
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> Neil

The TV series was meant to be optimistic, unlike the movies. Throughout
the series, Virdon and Burke preach a message of tolerance and
cooperation that goes against centuries of habit and tradition. They
believe they can change the world. Bringing back dogs is one way of
reinforcing the message that there's always hope; mistakes can be
corrected, problems can be solved, and disasters can be averted.

Anthony

On Sep 17, 2004, at 11:49 PM, Kassidy Rae wrote:

> To my mind, the dog was purposeful. I don't feel the writers were
> drenched in canon before they wrote the script (insert cynical laugh),
> but surely they knew the major points of the movies? The dog was quite
> prominent, almost as if to make a point, to say, "and the tv show is
> different from the movies because of..."
>
> Kass

You missed the astronauts' uniforms (sans undergarments) and Roddy
McDowall. :D

Anthony

On Sep 18, 2004, at 12:18 AM, Neil wrote:

> -- After finally getting around to watching the first episode of the
> TV series again one thing really struck me on this viewing - how
> much of the stuff they recycled from the movies apart from the ape
> clothes & rifles.
> I noticed the bars from Taylor's cell from Beneath, the 'walls' from
> the funeral scene from Planet, the spaceship, they used the same
> stock shot of Ape city from the film, and is that log / tree trunk
> near their crashed ship the same one that was in the outside pen in
> Planet?
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@i...>
wrote:

> and Roddy McDowall. :D

-- Good one Anthony!

Neil

hey michael i just recentley joined this group and just saw your offer to send people the return to the planet of the apes dvds i never got to see these when they came out and would really like to get a set
do you need money for postage? i am in south oz so pal is no a problem

thanx
charlie



---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , charlton burton <charburn65@y...>
wrote:

> i am in south oz so pal is no a problem

-- Damn another Aussie! ;-) Welcome Charlie. I used to live in South
Australia, where abouts are you?

The DVDs of Return look really good and if, like you say you haven't
seen the cartoon series before you are in for a shock! They are
different from what you would be used to if you only know the movies
and TV series.

Neil

G'day Charlie - I'm in Canberra...and yes I am a public servant!

Send your address and I'll send the Return DVDs.

Have you got the TV Show and Movies on DVD? Do you want the
Extended Version of "Battle" too (it is NTSC thought - do you have a
TV that plays NTSC?)?

Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil" <nfoster@h...> wrote:
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, charlton burton <charburn65@y...>
> wrote:
> > i am in south oz so pal is no a problem
>
> -- Damn another Aussie! ;-) Welcome Charlie. I used to live in
South
> Australia, where abouts are you?
>
> The DVDs of Return look really good and if, like you say you
haven't
> seen the cartoon series before you are in for a shock! They are
> different from what you would be used to if you only know the
movies
> and TV series.
>
> Neil

Very good point Anthony. It is a shame that most POTA fans relate to
the bleakness (of the movies?), don't you think?

Michael

> ----------
> From: Anthony B. McElveen[SMTP:ABMAC@...]
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:38:26 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: [Dogs
> Auto forwarded by a Rule
>

The TV series was meant to be optimistic, unlike the movies. Throughout
the series, Virdon and Burke preach a message of tolerance and
cooperation that goes against centuries of habit and tradition. They
believe they can change the world. Bringing back dogs is one way of
reinforcing the message that there's always hope; mistakes can be
corrected, problems can be solved, and disasters can be averted.

Anthony

On Sep 17, 2004, at 11:49 PM, Kassidy Rae wrote:

> To my mind, the dog was purposeful. I don't feel the writers were
> drenched in canon before they wrote the script (insert cynical laugh),

> but surely they knew the major points of the movies? The dog was quite

> prominent, almost as if to make a point, to say, "and the tv show is
> different from the movies because of..."
>
> Kass

thanx i live in glenelg and i am really looking forward to seeing the return cartoon show after hearing people talk about it

charlie





---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi michael
i will send my adress to you privately if thats ok. yes i have all the films and tv show on dvd i dont have an extended version of battle though but i can play ntsc ok

charlie



---------------------------------
Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

on 9/18/04 12:18 AM, Neil at nfoster@... wrote:

-- After finally getting around to watching the first episode of the
TV series again one thing really struck me on this viewing - how
much of the stuff they recycled from the movies apart from the ape
clothes & rifles.
I noticed the bars from Taylor's cell from Beneath, the 'walls' from
the funeral scene from Planet, the spaceship, they used the same
stock shot of Ape city from the film, and is that log / tree trunk
near their crashed ship the same one that was in the outside pen in
Planet?

Did I miss anything?

Neil




I don't know about the log, but I was going to mention all of the above
myself. It's great to see all that recycled stuff because it's a wonderful
tribute to the films... but maybe that's all it is (see below). The bars
from the cell from Beneath and the 'walls' from the funeral scene from
Planet are a particularly nice touch. And if I'm not mistaken, that's not
the first time the 'walls' were recycled. I'm pretty sure they can be seen
in the background in a restaurant scene in Conquest. Also, I believe there
were two different stock shots of Ape City from the films in the pilot
episode.

I did want to mention one thing though. Everybody is so fixated on the dog
that they forgot one other very important difference between the T.V. series
and the films; the possible existance of capital punishment in the ape's
criminal justice system. I'm not sure if it's actually capital punishment
for apes (but it certainly is for humans!), but when Virdon and Burke
capture Zaius, there is a conversation between the three of them in Zaius'
office in which Zaius states, "And yes, I had him killed, as I will have you
killed some day. As I must have poor Galen killed." That's a lot of
killing! And it's certainly quite a departure from "Ape shall never kill
ape."

Basically, I more or less agree with everybody who thinks the dog was placed
in the opening scene for a reason. Oh, I don't think it was that
premeditated, but it does serve to establish right away that the series is
in a different creative universe from the films. And though we all know and
love the films so well, I think the producers of the T.V. show made
deliberate changes from the films because they wanted to sort of "fix"
continuity and errors of logic that were made throughout the film series.
For example, the idea that absolutely all the dogs and cats in the whole
world could be wiped out because of a single space virus brought back by an
astronaut is quite a bit more of a stretch than the idea that there will
still be dogs (however rare?) in 3085 AD. Look at Australia! If I'm not
mistaken, there is a breed of dog called the Dingo in Australia that is
unrelated to any other breed on Earth. Surely, a virus that killed dogs and
cats in North America and maybe even Europe could be halted before it got to
Australia and New Zealand. In fact, geographically, Australia was isolated
for so long in the past that many types of animals exist in Australia and
ONLY in Australia.

Of course, I wouldn't change anything about Conquest! It's a wonderful film
and I love it as much as the next diehard Apes fan, and I can accept the
loss of all the dogs and cats in the context of the films series when I
watch the films series, but when I watch the T.V. series, I just don't have
a problem with seeing a dog. It's obviously a whole different scenario and
that's all there is to it.

What I think confuses people so much is the fact that the costumes, makeup,
sets, props and even star Roddy McDowall were "recylced" from the films for
use in the series. So many similarities exist between the films and the
series that it gets people thinking that the T.V. series is in the same
universe as the films, but it obviously is not. There are three key
examples to support this supposition. 1) Dogs do exist in 3085 AD. 2)
Humans have the power of speech and though they are oppressed, they are far
from the mute "animals" they were in Planet and Beneath. They are also not
hyper intelligent mutants, although, had the series gone on, they might have
expored a similar storyline, I suspect, as further "recycling" from the
films. 3) Zaius says he must have "poor Galen killed," a comment that
suggests that on this Planet of Apes, ape may actually kill ape, at least as
far as the criminal justice system is concerned anyway.

So as far as I'm concerned, the dog is not a "flub." Everyone who thinks
the series is in the same universe as the films is making their own
neverending flub.

Will

P.S.- "Imagine" if Tim Burton's Apes film had been made with recycled
costumes, makeup and props from the original Apes films, but still told the
same lackluster story. People would get EVEN MORE confused and think that
this other Ape world was too much like the post-apocalyptic world that
Taylor ended up in to be a different place. And at that point, you'd
probably being putting far too much thought into it to enjoy the film
anyway.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, it's a great shame, but the movies have their share of miraculous
comebacks thanks to the resourceful Mr. Dehn. Although there are
catastrophic losses in each film, there's always something (however
silly and contrived it may be) promising a better future.

At the end of Planet, Taylor loses faith in human civilization as he
knew it, but he has his freedom and a mate capable of learning.
In Beneath, Taylor loses Nova, Brent, and the planet, but (eventually)
Zira, Cornelius, and Milo survive.
In Escape, Cornelius, Zira, and Milo die, but baby Milo survives.
In Conquest, Caesar loses Armando, but he ends ape slavery.
In Battle, Caesar loses his heir, but he reasserts his authority and
paves the way for equality among apes and humans.

On the surface it does appear bleak, but it really isn't.

Anthony

On Sep 18, 2004, at 2:25 AM, Michael Whitty wrote:

> Very good point Anthony. It is a shame that most POTA fans relate to
> the bleakness (of the movies?), don't you think?
>
> Michael

Only because you are such an optomist Anthony!

Actually, I agree with what you say, but many don't think Caesar DID
pave the way for a better world.....and they believe that Taylor etc
will land after the conclusion of "Battle".

Good to have you "vocal" again Anthony! :)

Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@i...>
wrote:
Yes, it's a great shame, but the movies have their share of
miraculous comebacks thanks to the resourceful Mr. Dehn. Although
there are catastrophic losses in each film, there's always something
(however silly and contrived it may be) promising a better future.
At the end of Planet, Taylor loses faith in human civilization as he
knew it, but he has his freedom and a mate capable of learning.
In Beneath, Taylor loses Nova, Brent, and the planet, but
(eventually) Zira, Cornelius, and Milo survive.
In Escape, Cornelius, Zira, and Milo die, but baby Milo survives.
In Conquest, Caesar loses Armando, but he ends ape slavery.
In Battle, Caesar loses his heir, but he reasserts his authority and
paves the way for equality among apes and humans.

On the surface it does appear bleak, but it really isn't.

Anthony

On Sep 18, 2004, at 2:25 AM, Michael Whitty wrote:

Very good point Anthony. It is a shame that most POTA fans relate
to the bleakness (of the movies?), don't you think?

Michael

Will

This is a good point about ape killing ape, but I think the concept
of this does not come until later.....in Planet Zaius talks of
Cornelius being hung for high treason! I forget where the "Ape not
killing ape" is introduced....maybe even as late as "Battle?"

Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Will Hoover <will5967@v...> wrote:
> on 9/18/04 12:18 AM, Neil at nfoster@h... wrote:
>
> -- After finally getting around to watching the first episode of
the
> TV series again one thing really struck me on this viewing - how
> much of the stuff they recycled from the movies apart from the ape
> clothes & rifles.
> I noticed the bars from Taylor's cell from Beneath, the 'walls'
from
> the funeral scene from Planet, the spaceship, they used the same
> stock shot of Ape city from the film, and is that log / tree trunk
> near their crashed ship the same one that was in the outside pen in
> Planet?
>
> Did I miss anything?
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
> I don't know about the log, but I was going to mention all of the
above
> myself. It's great to see all that recycled stuff because it's a
wonderful
> tribute to the films... but maybe that's all it is (see below).
The bars
> from the cell from Beneath and the 'walls' from the funeral scene
from
> Planet are a particularly nice touch. And if I'm not mistaken,
that's not
> the first time the 'walls' were recycled. I'm pretty sure they
can be seen
> in the background in a restaurant scene in Conquest. Also, I
believe there
> were two different stock shots of Ape City from the films in the
pilot
> episode.
>
> I did want to mention one thing though. Everybody is so fixated
on the dog
> that they forgot one other very important difference between the
T.V. series
> and the films; the possible existance of capital punishment in the
ape's
> criminal justice system. I'm not sure if it's actually capital
punishment
> for apes (but it certainly is for humans!), but when Virdon and
Burke
> capture Zaius, there is a conversation between the three of them
in Zaius'
> office in which Zaius states, "And yes, I had him killed, as I
will have you
> killed some day. As I must have poor Galen killed." That's a lot
of
> killing! And it's certainly quite a departure from "Ape shall
never kill
> ape."
>
> Basically, I more or less agree with everybody who thinks the dog
was placed
> in the opening scene for a reason. Oh, I don't think it was that
> premeditated, but it does serve to establish right away that the
series is
> in a different creative universe from the films. And though we
all know and
> love the films so well, I think the producers of the T.V. show made
> deliberate changes from the films because they wanted to sort
of "fix"
> continuity and errors of logic that were made throughout the film
series.
> For example, the idea that absolutely all the dogs and cats in the
whole
> world could be wiped out because of a single space virus brought
back by an
> astronaut is quite a bit more of a stretch than the idea that
there will
> still be dogs (however rare?) in 3085 AD. Look at Australia! If
I'm not
> mistaken, there is a breed of dog called the Dingo in Australia
that is
> unrelated to any other breed on Earth. Surely, a virus that
killed dogs and
> cats in North America and maybe even Europe could be halted before
it got to
> Australia and New Zealand. In fact, geographically, Australia was
isolated
> for so long in the past that many types of animals exist in
Australia and
> ONLY in Australia.
>
> Of course, I wouldn't change anything about Conquest! It's a
wonderful film
> and I love it as much as the next diehard Apes fan, and I can
accept the
> loss of all the dogs and cats in the context of the films series
when I
> watch the films series, but when I watch the T.V. series, I just
don't have
> a problem with seeing a dog. It's obviously a whole different
scenario and
> that's all there is to it.
>
> What I think confuses people so much is the fact that the
costumes, makeup,
> sets, props and even star Roddy McDowall were "recylced" from the
films for
> use in the series. So many similarities exist between the films
and the
> series that it gets people thinking that the T.V. series is in the
same
> universe as the films, but it obviously is not. There are three
key
> examples to support this supposition. 1) Dogs do exist in 3085
AD. 2)
> Humans have the power of speech and though they are oppressed,
they are far
> from the mute "animals" they were in Planet and Beneath. They are
also not
> hyper intelligent mutants, although, had the series gone on, they
might have
> expored a similar storyline, I suspect, as further "recycling"
from the
> films. 3) Zaius says he must have "poor Galen killed," a comment
that
> suggests that on this Planet of Apes, ape may actually kill ape,
at least as
> far as the criminal justice system is concerned anyway.
>
> So as far as I'm concerned, the dog is not a "flub." Everyone who
thinks
> the series is in the same universe as the films is making their own
> neverending flub.
>
> Will
>
> P.S.- "Imagine" if Tim Burton's Apes film had been made with
recycled
> costumes, makeup and props from the original Apes films, but still
told the
> same lackluster story. People would get EVEN MORE confused and
think that
> this other Ape world was too much like the post-apocalyptic world
that
> Taylor ended up in to be a different place. And at that point,
you'd
> probably being putting far too much thought into it to enjoy the
film
> anyway.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Great Charlie, I'll send "Battle" too.

Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, charlton burton <charburn65@y...>
wrote:

> hi michael
> i will send my adress to you privately if thats ok. yes i have all

the films and tv show on dvd i dont have an extended version of
battle though but i can play ntsc ok

>
> charlie

Now speaking of DIFFERENT universes, I gotta say I think "Return" is
almost impossible to link with the other POTA movies and TV Show!|

Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil" <nfoster@h...> wrote:
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, charlton burton <charburn65@y...>
> wrote:
> > i am in south oz so pal is no a problem
>
> -- Damn another Aussie! ;-) Welcome Charlie. I used to live in
South
> Australia, where abouts are you?
>
> The DVDs of Return look really good and if, like you say you
haven't
> seen the cartoon series before you are in for a shock! They are
> different from what you would be used to if you only know the
movies
> and TV series.
>
> Neil

I'm not a Romantic who believes that good will always prevail in the
end, but I do think that it's possible for Caesar, et al, to change the
course of history so drastically that the 40th century is very
different when it comes around the second time.

Of course this is only my opinion. Battle's ending is rather ambiguous
so we're free to interpret it any way we choose.

Besides following the precedents set by the other four movies, the
"happy ending" in Battle gives purpose to the series. What good are
anti-war films that declare the inevitability of war?

Anthony
(It's great to be back :) )

On Sep 18, 2004, at 8:28 AM, Michael Whitty wrote:

> Only because you are such an optomist Anthony!
>
> Actually, I agree with what you say, but many don't think Caesar DID
> pave the way for a better world.....and they believe that Taylor etc
> will land after the conclusion of "Battle".
>
> Good to have you "vocal" again Anthony! :)
>
> Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Michael Whitty"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> I forget where the "Ape not killing ape" is introduced....maybe

even as late as "Battle?"

-- Just off the top of my head, isn't there mention of this in
Beneath? When the ape army comes accross the projected vision of the
burning scouts crucified upside down on posts doesn't Zaius want
them shot and put out of their misery to which Ursus says something
about how they can't because the Lawgiver forbids it?

Not sure if this is 100% correct, I just seem to remember something
like this, don't make me have to go and watch the movie again ;-)

Neil

on 9/18/04 6:31 PM, Neil at nfoster@... wrote:

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> I forget where the "Ape not killing ape" is introduced....maybe

even as late as "Battle?"

-- Just off the top of my head, isn't there mention of this in
Beneath? When the ape army comes accross the projected vision of the
burning scouts crucified upside down on posts doesn't Zaius want
them shot and put out of their misery to which Ursus says something
about how they can't because the Lawgiver forbids it?

Not sure if this is 100% correct, I just seem to remember something
like this, don't make me have to go and watch the movie again ;-)

Neil




That's pretty much what I remember too. I think you're right, that that's
the first mention of this in the film series. Good memory!

It seems clear to me that the entire concept of "Ape shall never kill ape"
originated and quite possibly ended with Paul Dehn. I don't think there's a
single mention of it in the T.V. series. Any thoughts on that, anyone?

Will


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd certainly have to agree and to me it is a rather strange invention
too.

It sure contradicts Zaius' threat of hanging Cornelius for high treason,
however if you don't count "execution" for some reason that COULD
explain it.

And doesn't Ursus go to fire on the chimp protestors? I could be wrong
because last time I watched Beneath I did so to ENJOY it, not to
analyse! So if this is the case it muddles thing up!

Was "ape not killing ape" mentioned in Escape or Conquest?

It certainly is something that, before further scrutiny, I always
assumed was part of all POTA "canon", but the more you examine it, the
more confusing it becomes!

I certainly think Caesar killing Aldo is intended (as is MUCH of Battle)
to show a different future is in stall for humans and apes.......

Michael

> ----------
> From: Will Hoover[SMTP:WILL5967@...]
> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 12:19:45 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Ape Shall Not Kill Abe!
> Auto forwarded by a Rule

That's pretty much what I remember too. I think you're right, that
that's
the first mention of this in the film series. Good memory!

It seems clear to me that the entire concept of "Ape shall never kill
ape"
originated and quite possibly ended with Paul Dehn. I don't think
there's a
single mention of it in the T.V. series. Any thoughts on that, anyone?

Will

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Birthday Reminder from the Calendar of PotaDG Paul Williams' Birthday Sunday September 19, 2004 All Day This event repeats every year. Notes: Happy Birthday Paul! Yahoo! Greetings Send a Yahoo! Birthday Greeting. Find Birthday Gifts Browse Yahoo! Shopping's Gift Guide

Copyright ©  2004  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved.

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The new ape remake on the block is "King Kong", from the Oscar-winning director of "Lord of the Rings", Peter Jackson. After two recent sub-par remakes of classic ape movies ("Mighty Joe Young" and POTA) the original ape movie superstar looks to be in good hands. Jackson was also interested in doing the POTA remake way back when.
Anyway, here's a good website for those interested in counting down this movie. www.kongisking.net . It's done by fans (the best kind of site) but Jackson contributes "video diaries". It's a lot of fun. I think the anticipation surrounding "Kong" will be the best shot at Fox reconsidering a POTA sequel (if they should even bother). The site also goes into the history of the original, Arthur Jacobs' favorite movie and the one that inspired him to do POTA. - - - Jeff


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]