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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Neil T Foster
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:18 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST prints

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:
> Do you have a scan Neil and some details?

 

--There is a scan in the files section:

http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oLiCQkwtd9swtSnZ06Tk2LpNHH7Sw4DuQv5vOYEN7JM4NeHi4Oari_usScf49gNUv6vAupND7zL4Vpy2QXq0/BtB%20poster%20%28final%20poster%20design%29.jpg

 

 

They will of course be hand signed and numbered down at the bottom.

 

Neil

 

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In a message dated 5/11/2005 8:09:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, darios@... writes:

Now, onto other things. I happened to watch the first few minutes of the old movie "Taxi" (DeNiro, Jody Foster, etc)

 

Firstly, you mean Taxi Driver. 

Taxi had DeVito and Marilu Henner in it.

And lastly, you should watch the LAST few minutes.

That's where all the action is.

 

 

<.html

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The makeup team on Spaceballs was

 

Ken Diaz	....	makeup artist
Melanie Levitt	....	makeup artist (as Melanie Elaine Levitt)
Ben Nye Jr.	....	makeup artist

 

 

Ben Nye Jr. probably got

a few pointers from his Dad.

He's an old hand on Apes.

 

 

<.html

.html.html In a message dated 5/11/2005 9:07:39 PM Central Standard Time, nfoster@... writes:

-- You forgot to mention that these printed versions of BTB contain
new EXTRA UNSEEN pages that are not available with any of the online
versions!

He also forgot to mention that they're pretty cool...

<.html <.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 1:20 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Spaceballs

The makeup team on Spaceballs was

 

Ken Diaz	....	makeup artist
Melanie Levitt	....	makeup artist (as Melanie Elaine Levitt)
Ben Nye Jr.	....	makeup artist

 

 

Ben Nye Jr. probably got

a few pointers from his Dad.

He's an old hand on Apes.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 1:44 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Comics.

In a message dated 5/11/2005 9:07:39 PM Central Standard Time, nfoster@... writes:

-- You forgot to mention that these printed versions of BTB contain
new EXTRA UNSEEN pages that are not available with any of the online
versions!

He also forgot to mention that they're pretty cool...

<.html

.html <.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of veetus@...
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:46 PM
To: potacollective; PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] OT: "Star Wars" TV show

 

  This has been mentioned here before. Here's some details from Lucas himself, for those who are interested. 

  http://www.comingsoon.net/news.php?id=9563  

  Meanwhile, from what I've heard about "Episode 3", it sounds killer. I can't wait to see it. - - - Jeff

<.html

Anybody here already have one of these?

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Neil T Foster
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:18 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] BEWARE THE BEAST prints

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:
> Do you have a scan Neil and some details?

 

--There is a scan in the files section:

http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oLiCQkwtd9swtSnZ06Tk2LpNHH7Sw4DuQv5vOYEN7JM4NeHi4Oari_usScf49gNUv6vAupND7zL4Vpy2QXq0/BtB%20poster%20%28final%20poster%20design%29.jpg

 

 

They will of course be hand signed and numbered down at the bottom.

 

Neil

 

---

Do you Yahoo!?
Make Yahoo! your home page

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In a message dated 5/12/2005 12:33:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

Meanwhile, from what I've heard about "Episode 3", it sounds killer. I can't wait to see it. - - - Jeff

 

 

Yeah, but I remember when people were saying the same thing about

a half-assed matinee a few years back.  It was called POTA2K1.

I think it will fall somewhere between LOTRs and X-Men.  But

don't tell the diehard fans it's not the Holy Grail.  I just hope it's

better than Epis 3 & 4.   Something you might actually see twice.

 

 

Fingers Crossed

T

 

PS  And no Ewoks or Jar Jars!!!

 

 

<.html

I DO!!! I framed it and it's in my collection room... looks SWEET! EVERYONE should get one... or two!

 

-Chris

"Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@...> wrote:

Anybody here already have one of these?

 

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Whitty, Michael

To: 'PotaDG@yahoogroups.com'

Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:49 PM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] OT: "Star Wars" TV show

Me too!

Thanks Jeff.

 

When does it open in the US?

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of veetus@...
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:46 PM
To: potacollective; PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] OT: "Star Wars" TV show

 

  This has been mentioned here before. Here's some details from Lucas himself, for those who are interested. 

  http://www.comingsoon.net/news.php?id=9563  

  Meanwhile, from what I've heard about "Episode 3", it sounds killer. I can't wait to see it. - - - Jeff

<.html

.html <.html

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----- Original Message -----

From: LordTZer0@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 11:49 PM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] OT: "Star Wars" TV show

In a message dated 5/12/2005 12:33:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

Meanwhile, from what I've heard about "Episode 3", it sounds killer. I can't wait to see it. - - - Jeff

 

 

Yeah, but I remember when people were saying the same thing about

a half-assed matinee a few years back.  It was called POTA2K1.

I think it will fall somewhere between LOTRs and X-Men.  But

don't tell the diehard fans it's not the Holy Grail.  I just hope it's

better than Epis 3 & 4.   Something you might actually see twice.

 

 

Fingers Crossed

T

 

PS  And no Ewoks or Jar Jars!!!

 

 

<.html

.html

In a message dated 5/12/2005 7:39:06 A.M. Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  May 19. It seems like every critic and their mother has already seen it. Guess they've got nothing to hide. And the last "Star Trek" tomorrow. Make way for "Apes"?  - - - Jeff

 

Yeah, I'm a bit dubious about Star Wars forays into the small screen market.

Anyone who saw the truly terrible Star Wars Holiday Special knows what I mean.

<.html

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In a message dated 5/12/2005 7:41:24 A.M. Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  I don't remember any positive word of mouth for POTA2001. There were no previews. They didn't have time. I'd heard some bad reports about the script from the set and when Zanuck said in "Vanity Fair" that the original didn't have enough action, I thought, "Uh oh...".  - - -

 

True but there was a lot of hype.  And it was anticipated as the

movie of the summer by celebs and movie goers alike.  But

when I saw that everyone "loved" the William Broyles script

but the it would be too expensive to shoot, so they brought

a couple of new writers in to punch it up I thought,  "Uh oh..."

 

 

<.html

Sorry. Yeah I'm talking about "Taxi Driver" of course. I was too tired
to even put in a tape. But it's a common enough movie that should roll
around again soon enough.

But what about the patch?

dario

----- Original Message -----
From: LordTZer0@...
Date: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] POTA Taxi patch?

>
> In a message dated 5/11/2005 8:09:12 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> darios@... writes:
>
> Now, onto other things. I happened to watch the first few minutes
> of the old
> movie "Taxi" (DeNiro, Jody Foster, etc)
>
>
>
> Firstly, you mean Taxi Driver.
> Taxi had DeVito and Marilu Henner in it.
> And lastly, you should watch the LAST few minutes.
> That's where all the action is.
>
>
>

Forgive me condensing all these things into one email but I'm on digest mode
so it's a bit of a chore trying to separate out all the different topics.
Here goes...

1) On the subject of Palisade's plans, I too haven't commented because of
the lack of information. On the Sideshow front however I have to confess
that my lack of discussion is entirely down to the fact that I have chosen
not to buy them. They look quite nice, but on this occasion common sense has
taken over and I have come to realise that I just can't justify the price of
collecting these things - either I buy them from the US and have to pay more
for shipping or else I buy them in the UK at greatly inflated prices. Either
way, they cost more than I'm prepared to spend on them (especially since
they'll just end up sitting in my collection doing very little).

2) On a similar note, I thought the new Rittenhouse cards, from what I've
seen of them, actually look very nice - but at the prices they've been
selling for I'm afraid I just can't justify buying them, which is a real
shame. I'd love to support quality new PotA product, but my devotion (and my
bank account) can only go so far.

3) Beware the Beast printed version - I'd like one. Who do I pay and how?

4) Just read Chapter 38 of Within, along with the preceeding few chapters.
This is the one drawback to this format - I do tend to have to go back and
read the previous few panels just to get back into the story again. But hey,
I'm enjoying it so it's not like re-reading it is a chore! In terms of the
story it's really beginning to pick up speed and come together now. I think
this format is pretty challenging when it comes to trying to pace the story
but Michael's story has coped with this. As for Neil's art, it's top quality
as usual. I am assuming that plenty of photo referencing is used (not just
on faces - the gun at the end of chapter 37 looks incredible) but the art is
at its best when free from these constraints, taking on a cinematic approach
with Neil's eye as a roving movie camera that can literally watch the action
from any angle. This cinematic kind of approach is why people like Neal
Adams and Frank Miller made such an impact on the comics world and our Neil
does a cracking job of it. More please!

Alan

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , <veetus@e...> wrote:

> I don't remember any positive word of mouth for POTA2001. There were

no previews. They didn't have time. I'd heard some bad reports about
the script from the set and when Zanuck said in "Vanity Fair" that the
original didn't have enough action, I thought, "Uh oh...".

-- I remember being so exited when I first heard about the new Apes
movie. Then I saw the dark and brooding movie poster, with the Ape
army stretching off into the distance, and thought - wow! this is
going to be great and when I saw a newspaper article about it and they
had a picture of Attar and I remember showing the family and raving
about how good the makeup looked. Then I went and saw the movie...

Neil

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-- <.html

I do! It's terrific!

Tim

--- "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@...>
wrote:

> Anybody here already have one of these?

Yahoo! Mail
Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour:
http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html"

Happy Life Day LordTZer0!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/12/2005 7:39:06 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> veetus@e... writes:
>
> May 19. It seems like every critic and their mother has already
seen it.
> Guess they've got nothing to hide. And the last "Star Trek"
tomorrow. Make way
> for "Apes"? - - - Jeff
>
>
>
> Yeah, I'm a bit dubious about Star Wars forays into the small
screen market.
> Anyone who saw the truly terrible Star Wars Holiday Special knows
what I
> mean.

.html

In a message dated 5/12/2005 4:47:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, nfoster@... writes:

Then I went and saw the movie...

Neil

 

I got a flat on the way to the movie.

Then the A/C went out, so I had to

drive over to the other side of town

to a garage with cheap recharges,

Then had to go to a different theater

to make a matinee, and I had a head-

ache.  When I left disappointed

I wondered if my mood had ruined

the movie.  Nope!  It's pre-spoiled.

 

 

<.html

Tim Burton, Tim Roth, Rick Baker's make up. How could this movie be
anything but amazing. I had the same excited feeling when I saw the
teaser banners put up at the theater. I knew this movie was going to
make Planet of the Apes cool again.... for about a minute. What a let
down. It still makes me want to cry over all that wasted talent and
potential.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil" <nfoster@h...> wrote:
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > I don't remember any positive word of mouth for POTA2001. There
were
> no previews. They didn't have time. I'd heard some bad reports about
> the script from the set and when Zanuck said in "Vanity Fair" that
the
> original didn't have enough action, I thought, "Uh oh...".
>
> -- I remember being so exited when I first heard about the new Apes
> movie. Then I saw the dark and brooding movie poster, with the Ape
> army stretching off into the distance, and thought - wow! this is
> going to be great and when I saw a newspaper article about it and
they
> had a picture of Attar and I remember showing the family and raving
> about how good the makeup looked. Then I went and saw the movie...
>
> Neil

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In a message dated 5/12/2005 6:32:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

What a let down. It still makes me want to cry over all that wasted talent and
potential.

 

I just wish I knew who was to blame,

so I could fly over like Jay & Silent Bob

and kick their ass.

 

 

<.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 9:40 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: POTA 2001first impressions

In a message dated 5/12/2005 6:32:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

What a let down. It still makes me want to cry over all that wasted talent and
potential.

 

I just wish I knew who was to blame,

so I could fly over like Jay & Silent Bob

and kick their ass.

<.html

.html

Did anyone see the Discovery Channel show Humanzee?

It was fascinating.  It's about a chimp named Oliver who

walks upright.  It was really sad.  He ended up in a five by

five cage in a basement to be used for experiments.  It has

a happy ending though.  The guy that was originally out

bid for him came into some money and tracked him down.

He bought not only him but the other chimps there and

donated him to Primarily Primates in San Antonio. The

ironic part is there were only two known cases of actual

Humanzees.  One in China in the 60's was never born.

The lab was stormed by Chinese revolutionary radicals

and the mother died of neglect.  The other was at the

Yekes Primate Research Center in the 20's, and it

was decided that it should be euthanized shortly

after it was born.  But through DNA testing it was

determined that Oliver, though genetically different

from most chimps, wasn't one. 

 

 

 

<.html

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They even mentioned Planet of the Apes!

<.html

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In a message dated 5/13/2005 8:15:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, mgkettler@... writes:

It was amazing how he walked upright all the time. 

 

And he didn't walk upright like a chimp!

He walk like a man!  straight posture and

knees locked.  No other chimp walks that way.

 

<.html

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In a message dated 5/13/2005 8:15:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, mgkettler@... writes:

It was amazing how he walked upright all the time. 

Yes, and his other human characteristics as well.

and the fact that he and other chimps never got along.

 

<.html

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In a message dated 5/12/2005 9:39:45 A.M. Central Standard Time, darios@... writes:

But what about the patch?

What did it look like?

A glyph?  It was probably

a military patch from Nam.

 

<.html

You know, I fley a lot like you Neil about the POTA 2001 movie when
news of it first came out. Especially since Heston and Linda Harrison
was going to be in it. Then I went to see it. I even took 3 friends
who never saw all of the originals and I remember the expression on
their faces when it was over. All I could say to them was "sorry". I
never did but it on DVD. A freind of mine gave it to me on DVD for
Christmas and to this day I have never watched it since. As a matter
of fact, I havent even busted it out of it's plastic wrap.
My wish would be that Fox would re-release the originals to the
theaters.Some of us have never saw it on the big screen
John



In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil" <nfoster@h...> wrote:

> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, <veetus@e...> wrote:
> > I don't remember any positive word of mouth for POTA2001. There

were

> no previews. They didn't have time. I'd heard some bad reports about
> the script from the set and when Zanuck said in "Vanity Fair" that

the

> original didn't have enough action, I thought, "Uh oh...".
>
> -- I remember being so exited when I first heard about the new Apes
> movie. Then I saw the dark and brooding movie poster, with the Ape
> army stretching off into the distance, and thought - wow! this is
> going to be great and when I saw a newspaper article about it and

they

> had a picture of Attar and I remember showing the family and raving
> about how good the makeup looked. Then I went and saw the movie...
>
> Neil

Hey all, I watched Conquest on DVD last night and something caught my
eye when I was watching it so I compared it to my letter box VHS
version and noticed a BIG (to me) flaw. When Armando and Caesar were
standing before the dog and cat memorial, on the DVD the date that all
the dogs and cats died was cut off!! When I compared it to my VHS
copy, it was there. Has any one noticed this before? Does any one know
if the date is cut off of the letter boxed Japanesse Laser disc? If it
isn't I will have to have a copy of my LD transfered to DVD.
John

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/10/05 2:03:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> > The earlier testimony's the true one... the EARTH-TIME clocks DO

work... and there is only ONE timeline.

> >
> > In my opinion... but I'm right!
> >
> > Patrick
> >
>
> There's two timelines

*** At the end of the Caesar/Virgil/MacDonald sequences of BATTLE, it
is only suggested that it MIGHT be possible to change the Future --
not that they HAVE changed the Future. And, 600 years after Caesar's
death, their descendants, the group led by the nice Lawgiver (c. 2673
A.D.) STILL doesn't know if the Future had been changed. They only
HOPE that it had been...

There is NO on-screen evidence of any "2nd timeline" with the sole
exception of the 500 years alluded to by Cornelius and Zira -- which
is refuted by Cornelius himself in his earlier testimony to the
Commission.

Why is it so hard to believe that those Apes could've been lying to
Hasslein regarding this??? After all, when they play the loop of Zira
saying "Dissec- Dissec- Dissec- Dissec-" and insultingly order her
to "complete the word" she'd cut short... Zira LIES to them,
suggesting that she'd had the hiccups! And Cornelius, in response to
this, begins to chuckle. Zira ALSO lies to them when she tells them
that the only reason they never told the Commission about Taylor was
because they hadn't been asked! They HAD been asked: One of the
Commission members asks, "Did you know a Colonel Taylor?" and
Cornelius responded, "No... is he a soldier?" They lied to the
Commission (for reasons explained to Dixon & Branton a little bit
later), and they later lied again to Hasslein & the Goons about their
earlier lie.

These two charming smart chimps are not above lying to those they
perceive as their enemies when it suits them. They LIED about
that "two centuries" and "another three centuries" stuff. They had to
have lied, given the 2,000 years Apes in the 40th Century had been
speaking English. And it SUITED them to lie about that, since it
gives them a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY regarding the "prophesied"
overthrow of Man's civilization. They'll THINK (if they believe the
Apes) that they've got a half a millennium to go... but they've
actually got only a couple decades, TOPS, before Apes take over.

That's da fact, Jack!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/10/2005 1:03:19 PM Central Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> > The earlier testimony's the true one... the EARTH-TIME clocks DO
> > work... and there is only ONE timeline.
> >
> > In my opinion... but I'm right!
> >
> You're right in believing your own Mothership theory where

astronauts land on a planet ruled by apes that were genetically
engineered by space aliens "2,000+" years earlier.... These apes were
able to gain enough intelligence to conquer an entire planet after
being in servitude for only 8 years all because of being implanted
with intelligence from the Roswell Incident. Not to mention you're
right about the continent of Australia being the home of the city of
New York seen in the first episode of the TV series... Thankfully
you're here to tell everyone that unless it's quoted in your opus,
there's no way in hell it could be...

.html.html In a message dated 5/14/05 5:18:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

*** At the end of the Caesar/Virgil/MacDonald sequences of BATTLE, it
is only suggested that it MIGHT be possible to change the Future --
not that they HAVE changed the Future.

If you were able to go back in time and you altered even the slightest detail you'd change all the haphazard events that make up history, hence you'd change history as you know it.  No serious SF writer playing with time travel and its paradoxes would seriously try to put across the kind of closed time loop you think exists in the APES series.

Why is it so hard to believe that those Apes could've been lying to
Hasslein regarding this???

Because it makes no sense for them to do so.  If they didn't lie are you trying to say that then history could be changed?  And if Cornelius knew the complete truth of the planet's past, why would he return there to see his wife murdered and himself killed -- and not try to do anything about it?  Zira and Cornelius knew nothing of the exact nature of the planet's past, except the story he told Hasslein.

*** Taylor saw his ship's EARTH-TIME chronometer give the date 11-25-
3978 on it. Does that "prove" that it really WAS that date on Earth
when they landed?


YES!  Because it's in PLANET, Dummy!  PLANET came first.  PLANET is the Bible!  No sequels were originally planned.  Dehn goofed the dates.  That's all there is to it!

If you take the sequel movies -- ALL of 'em -- into account, then the date MUST be 3955

Well, there you go.  I DON'T take them into account.  There's too many flaws in them.  PLANET isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than any of the sequels, and for me it's a thing unto itself.  It's a work of SF film art that really required no sequel, and I reject the sequels as anything more than just a studio milking a property for all they could get out of it.  Let's face it, if you MUST think of the five film series as a saga that's a whole and that all the films are utterly tied to one another forever, then I have to say that Dehn "monkeyed around" with it too much and it's just too full of holes and implausibilities.  If this is not true, then why would it require of you a mothership and Roswell aliens to help it out?!!!!

Jesus, help me!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 5/14/05 5:18:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

And don't tell me that the Lawgiver in BATTLE is the same one that
had been mean to Mankind 1,200 years before PLANET, the one whose
statue is seen in Ape City in PLANET and BENEATH -- they're not the
same orangutan!

Dude, you need to read more SF.  They are the same orangutan, but in different timelines, each having a different past that has shaped who they are and their attitudes.  The Lawgiver in BATTLE is a "kinder/gentlier" Lawgiver because Caesar is in his historic past.  The Lawgiver in the history of PLANET and BENEATH has no Caesar in his past -- because Zira and Cornelius haven't gone back in time yet to give birth to him!

Why is this so hard for you to get a grip on?

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html Whitty, Michael wrote:

 I bought 6 Argentinian comics that were translated into English - these are the rarely seen and are original stories based on the TV Show characters.

 

All 6 are now available to DG members.

 

They are $5 each plus postge.  This is not much more than they cost to print.

Definitely want a set of these. I forget. Do you have a paypal account? We're talking $US rigth?

Same with Beware the Beast - if you missed that you can get Pt 1 and Pt 2 for $5 each plus postage.

Did you make prints of the comic or are these posters? I don't remember anyone saying prints of the comics were  made. If they are the complete story then I'd like these too.

Dario

<.html

.html It wasn't glyph. I was an ape face, but it was had to tell if it was a POTA ape. It looked like POTA but an Nam related patch would fit in with the story since DeNiro is a Nam vet in the story. Garrison's Gorrilas?  ;)

Dario

LordTZer0@... wrote:

In a message dated 5/12/2005 9:39:45 A.M. Central Standard Time, darios@... writes:

But what about the patch?

What did it look like?

A glyph?  It was probably

a military patch from Nam.

<.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/14/05 5:18:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
>
> > *** At the end of the Caesar/Virgil/MacDonald sequences of

BATTLE, it is only suggested that it MIGHT be possible to change the
Future -- not that they HAVE changed the Future.

>
> If you were able to go back in time and you altered even the

slightest detail you'd change all the haphazard events that make up
history, hence you'd change history as you know it. No serious SF
writer playing with time travel and its paradoxes would seriously try
to put across the kind of closed time loop you think exists in the
APES series.

*** If I were able to go back in time, then YES I might be able to
change history... UNLESS, by going back in time, I was FULFILLING a
history I hadn't been aware of: a history where Future-Me had
appeared out of nowhere and done whatever. There are tons of SF
stories that involve time-travellers going back to their Past and
doing things that end up fulfilling a causality loop.

I remember a short story, offhand (its title escapes me), about a guy
named Theodore who somehow goes back in time to ancient Norway: his
handgun is misconstrued by the people back then as a kind of "hammer"
that they think he throws as if it's a thunderbolt to strike down an
enemy at a distance, and which miraculously zips back into his hand
too fast for the eye to catch. After Theodore somehow returns to his
own time, it dawns on him that he himself is/was/became the basis for
the mythological figure of "THOR", the Thunder-God whose hammer,
Mjolnir, was symbolic of a lightning-bolt and which could return to
his hand after he wielded it against a foe. "Theodore" became
shortened by the ancients into "Thor", etc.

It was a cool story, and represents just the sort of SF story that
shows a time-loop/causality-loop that is FULFILLED by somebody going
back into his/her Past and having an impact there. Not to CHANGE the
Past, but to FULFILL it.

You're a STAR TREK fan, right? Remember the DS9 episode about the
Ferengi characters winding up at Roswell in 1947? That was TREK's way
of "explaining" the Roswell Incident involving alleged aliens and a
crashed spaceship. If Quark and the other Ferengi had NOT gone back
through Time and crashlanded near Roswell, then the incident would
NOT have happened and history as we know it -- and as the 24th
Century Trek characters will know it -- could NOT exist. Quark (et
al.) were "destined" to time-travel back to 1947 Earth, though they
at the time didn't have a clue that that's what they were doing. It
was only after-the-fact that they would've realized that the
historical Roswell Incident involved Ferengi crash-landers.

You need to read more "serious SF", Rory, if you haven't come across
just the sort of "causality-loop-closing" time-travel stories that
I'm suggesting the POTA saga is. And that Dehn himself said, when he
stated in an interview that "BATTLE" was intended to "set-up" the
situation seen in "PLANET" and "BENEATH" -- that's why he had a dude
named MENDEZ in it, along with the DOOMSDAY BOMB, and the beginnings
of its eventual worship. Why the f*** else do you think those
elements are present in "BATTLE", Rory? Why isn't the bomb DISMANTLED
by a Mendez who realizes it's best to do so, in order to prevent its
potential use? THAT would definitely prevent the Doomsday that Caesar
hopes his actions will accomplish... BUT IT NEVER HAPPENS.

>
> Why is it so hard to believe that those Apes could've been lying to
> Hasslein regarding this???
>
> Because it makes no sense for them to do so.

*** Yes, it DOES make sense. By this time, Cornelius -- who knows a
certain amount about the 'past' because he'd had access to
the "Secret Scrolls", the "history scrolls KEPT HIDDEN FROM THE
MASSES" -- must ALSO have an inkling regarding the TIMEFRAME of the
events. He'd earlier said that Apes spoke English for roughly 2,000
years (earlier than either 3955 or 3978, take your pick). He knows
that IF Hasslein were to learn that a mere DECADE or two after the
Pet Plague the advanced human civilization were to destroy itself in
a nuclear conflagration, THEN Hasslein (and the like-minded people in
positions of power) would act a certain way: when the Plague actually
transpires in 1983, they would go: "Holy shit! The ape's prophecies
are RIGHT... he knew about the plague, and here it's gone and
happened! And he also told us that those alive during it would still
be around when NUCLEAR WAR wipes out everything!"

In other words, THEY WOULD KNOW THEIR TIME IS RUNNING OUT IN THEIR
OWN LIFETIMES.

But, by LYING to them about the duration of the time between the
Plague and the Nuclear War -- pretending it takes place 500 YEARS
later, rather than less-than-a-lifetime -- Cornelius instills within
them a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY. Perhaps Cornelius ALSO knows that an
ape named Caesar will play a part in the events described (just
because he never MENTIONED any "Caesar", as he mentioned an "Aldo",
doesn't necessarily mean that a "Caesar" was NOT written of by the
unknown author(s) of the "Secret Scrolls"... and IF such a character
had been written about, INCLUDING the notion that he had been born to
parents who came from Earth's own Future (as the nice Lawgiver
recites in the opening scene of "BATTLE"), then Cornelius, in the
interrogation scene in "ESCAPE", would know that the fetus inside
Zira's womb MUST FIND A WAY TO SURVIVE SO THAT HE CAN FULFILL HIS
ROLE IN THE UPCOMING 'HISTORY' THAT HE'D READ ABOUT. If Cornelius
does NOT lie to Hasslein (etc) about the timeframe, Hasslein will
probably kill him and Zira AND THEIR UNBORN BABY pronto. He needs to
let Hasslein think -- wrongly -- that they've got HALF A MILLENNIUM
to continue to lord it over the Earth, prior to the problems with
uppity apes and all that.

It makes BOATLOADS of sense for Cornelius to lie about the 500 years
duration, Rory.
------------------------------------------------------------

>If they didn't lie are you trying to say that then history could be

changed? And if Cornelius knew the complete truth of the planet's
past, why would he return there to see his wife murdered and himself
killed -- and not try to do anything about it? Zira and Cornelius
knew nothing of the exact nature of the planet's past, except the
story he told Hasslein.

*** I'm saying that by the time Cornelius is interrogated by
Hasslein, he -- as an archaologist/historian who had had access to
documents detailing the Past that ONLY ZAIUS (and a few like him) had
known about -- he would then, perhaps, see that by going back through
Time, from his former Present to his current Present (his former
Past), back to the very time written about in those scrolls, he just
MIGHT recognize that his own son is described in them, just as HE and
his WIFE are, as "the two parent apes" (who are not named by the nice
Lawgiver). If he sees himself mentioned in those scrolls, then, he
would know that the child he begot -- who is yet to be born -- MUST
have a chance to live in order to fulfill his destiny. THAT is why he
asks if the newborn child is a... "It's a boy" -- THAT tells him that
THIS CHILD, born in Armando's circus, MIGHT be the very one written
of in those old scrolls. If it had been a GIRL, then he and Zira
would have to knock off another kid, until they'd produced a male
child, who could then become the "Caesar" written of in the scrolls.
Zira names this child "Milo", which necessitates a RE-NAMING of the
ape later on -- and, it's a given that Armando would rename him,
since it wouldn't do to have chimp in his circus named after one of
the Ape-onauts!

Cornelius would know, then, that he and Zira would be murdered, as
would eventually be written by the author(s) of the "Secret Scrolls".
But their CHILD would survive... to lead Apes out from their state of
bondage like a simian Moses.

Back in 3955, before they got into that spaceship with Milo,
Cornelius and Zira had NO CLUE that they would be soon going back
into the distant Past. All they're thinking is that they're gonna fly
in a vehicle just like the one Taylor described in his writings
during "PLANET". It's only AFTER they've splashed down in the
southeast corner of sector Alpha Charlie that it dawns on them (well,
on Milo, at any rate) that they've gone BACKWARDS THROUGH TIME. Milo
has to explain this to them, before the gorilla chokes him to death.

From that point on, Cornelius and Zira have to walk a fine line. IF
they should eventually reveal their ability to Talk, then they have
to be careful what they say, since no matter how charming they may
be, if guys like Hasslein find out how rotten Apes will be to Humans
in the 40th Century -- if they find out that the world will be
destroyed after a war is started by a warmongering gorilla -- it's a
given that they'll be killed.

In 3955, Cornelius did NOT know the "complete truth" about the Past;
he only knew what the "Secret Scrolls" had said, and who knows how
much of those he even believed when he read 'em?! Perhaps he thought,
as he read them, that they are about as reliable as the FALSE history
he'd been taught, based on the "Sacred Scrolls". It wasn't until
AFTER he himself time-travelled back to 1973 that it THEN dawns on
him that HE AND ZIRA AND THEIR UNBORN CHILD are/will be fulfilling
events that would eventually become the history that his earlier
ignorant self would find out about. He didn't INTEND to go back in
Time... it just happened.

And the guy who wrote this stuff in "ESCAPE", Paul Dehn, purposely
intended there to be another story after this one -- that's why he
has the baby chimp saying "MA-MA! MA-MA!" at the end! He
wrote "CONQUEST" with specific details in it that tie it to the stuff
Cornelius told Hasslein in the last movie: the Pet Plague... Apes
turned into Pets... Apes eventually turned into Slaves... an ape
named ALDO is present, etc. He mentioned Aldo to Hasslein, which
might then make ANY ape named "Aldo" from that point on somebody who
would be a target by any future-preventing human...

... but the REAL ape that humans would have to look out for, the ape
he purposely did NOT mention in his "tale" about his society's past
based on those "Secret Scrolls", is NOT Aldo. It's CAESAR. By NOT
mentioning Caesar, he was PROTECTING him from any potential threat
based solely on that name, "Caesar". Dehn, when he wrote "ESCAPE",
had already planned on the sequel "CONQUEST" and probably a fair
chunk of "BATTLE" to boot. Cornelius' lie (the 500 years stuff) is
all part of Dehn's conception to set-the-stage for the situation we
see in "PLANET". Apes in control. Humans ruled over. Mutants in the
remains of a bombed-out city worshipping the Doomsday Bomb. Some
people hoping that the "BENEATH" future can be prevented... but all
the pieces set in place to ENSURE that it happens. There's still that
Bomb, with its "firing mechanism... it's INTACT, isn't it?!" Yes, it
is. And NOTHING that Caesar does will change that... unless he finds
a way to make friends with those mutants he'd allowed to leave in
defeat at the end of the "battle" in "BATTLE". Instead, he MAINTAINS
AN ARMORY full of all those guns that Mandemus wishes would be blown
up -- because Caesar still sees that there may still be a danger from
those mutants. He's still in a defensive, ADVERSARIAL relationship
with those people whom he says "are Mutant... and they're MAD!"

In other words, he's never gonna even ATTEMPT to make friends with
Mendez & Alma (etc), because he prejudicially considers them to be
insane. And they are nudged into insanity at the end, when Mendez
suggests to Alma and the others that the Bomb should be VENERATED...
which, of course, FULFILLS the set-up in "BENEATH" now, doesn't it?

The POTA timeline is FULFILLED by the events of "ESCAPE", "CONQUEST",
and "BATTLE" -- another "new" timeline is NOT created, as Dehn
himself suggested in an interview. Only the HOPE. But it's a BLIND
CHOICE.

----------------------------------------------------------

>
> *** Taylor saw his ship's EARTH-TIME chronometer give the date 11-

25-3978 on it. Does that "prove" that it really WAS that date on
Earth when they landed?

>
>
> YES! Because it's in PLANET, Dummy! PLANET came first. PLANET is

the Bible! No sequels were originally planned. Dehn goofed the
dates. That's all there is to it!

*** No, it ain't! Taylor himself believes that the chronometer is
accurately telling the date... but he also believes that they're 320
lightyears away from Earth, rather than ON it. Based on the
chronometer date, he extrapolates that they made it the entire
distance, the full 320 lightyears; he must've been informed (prior to
launch) that their ship will have travelled 320 lightyears to their
destination when 18 months of SHIP-TIME had gone by and 2006 years of
EARTH-TIME had gone by: they would see "3978" on the clock when they
arrived. Based on seeing that date, Taylor confidently tells Landon
that they are indeed "three hundred twenty lightyears from Earth on
an unnamed planet in orbit around a star in the constellation of
Orion".

If they actually WERE where he believed they were, where he'd said
they were, then that'd be one thing.

But they're NOT! They're on Earth, instead. All the clock "proves" is
that before their ship zipped back to Earth (somehow) in a DAMAGED
state, they had indeed travelled out 320 lightyears towards their
destination. Just as Virdon's flight recorder reads an EARTH-TIME
of "JUL 14 1980" when the timewarp hits 'em at Alpha Centauri, and
the cockpit EARTH-TIME clock LATER reads "3-21-3085" on the day they
land, SO TOO does a time-change happen to the ANSA clocks of the
Taylor/Brent/"mother"-ship mission. Taylor's clock somehow did NOT
register the back-through-Time change, from 3978-to-3955, perhaps
because his vessel was DAMAGED in a number of ways...

... but both Brent's ship AND THE APE-ONAUT SHIP read the EARTH-TIME
date 3955 AFTER they'd gone back to Earth. Both ANSA missions,
Virdon's and Taylor's, travelled back to Earth at the SAME rate of
speed: 0.03774 lightyears per NEGATIVE EARTH-TIME DAY. Virdon's ship
travels from Alpha Centauri to Earth, a distance of 4.34 lightyears.
Multiply 0.03774 by 115 NEGATIVE EARTH-TIME DAYS and you get the
distance in lightyears that Virdon's ship had to have travelled in
order to get back to Earth using their "Automatic Homing Device"
(also called an "Emergency Homing Device" when Virdon's unconsciously
flashing-back to the critical moment).

Taylor's ship(s) travel a much further distance -- 320 lightyears as
opposed to a mere 4.34 lightyears -- but it does so AT THE SAME RATE
OF LIGHTYEARS PER NEGATIVE EARTH-TIME DAY, 0.03774. Instead of going
back only ~115 days, then, it goes back ~115 days MULTIPLIED by the
fraction 320/4.34, or 73.73272. Multiply ~115 by 73.73272 and you get
approximately 8,479 NEGATIVE EARTH-TIME DAYS that those ANSA ships
experience. Brent's ship registers this time-change, and CLICKS BACK
from 3978 to 3955 (with Brent & Skipper unaware of this, it seems:
they only wake up to see 3955 on it instead of 3978, which prompts
Brent to state that he does NOT know which sun it is shining down on
the blind Skipper... he only knows it isn't the star they'd been
travelling to, which they would've reached on the EARTH-TIME date
3978).

Taylor's DAMAGED ship does NOT register the time-change, for some
reason, and continues to display the year 3978. But the REAL date
(based on the sequel information) is 3955, only Taylor has no way of
knowing that.

>
> If you take the sequel movies -- ALL of 'em -- into account, then

the date MUST be 3955

>
> Well, there you go. I DON'T take them into account. There's too

many flaws in them.

*** You mean "flubs", and I'm the POTA Un-flubber! Ha ha ha ha ha!

>PLANET isn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than any of

the sequels, and for me it's a thing unto itself.

*** Then you shouldn't have any opinion about "timelines", since ONLY
THE SEQUELS brings up any question of there maybe being more than
one. ONLY if you consider the sequel movies to be equally "canon"
with "PLANET" can you even consider the "timeline" question. It's
like an atheist regarding a dispute between a Jew, a Christian, and a
Muslim as to WHICH RELIGION is the "true" one: an atheist believes
that they're ALL false; he wouldn't take any side but his own, which
is in direct confutation with the 3 pro-religion alternatives. If
ONLY "PLANET" is to be considered as "a thing unto itself", then
there's only ONE timeline, since there's NO CLUE in that one film
that anybody has ever travelled BACK through Time and potentially
changed anything!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/14/05 5:18:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > And don't tell me that the Lawgiver in BATTLE is the same one

that had been mean to Mankind 1,200 years before PLANET, the one
whose statue is seen in Ape City in PLANET and BENEATH -- they're not
the same orangutan!

>
> Dude, you need to read more SF. They are the same orangutan, but

in different timelines, each having a different past that has shaped
who they are and their attitudes. The Lawgiver in BATTLE is
a "kinder/gentlier" Lawgiver because Caesar is in his historic past.
The Lawgiver in the history of PLANET and BENEATH has no Caesar in
his past -- because Zira and Cornelius haven't gone back in time yet
to give birth to him!

>
> Why is this so hard for you to get a grip on?
>
> -- Rory

*** Reading "more SF" is irrelevant to this argument, Rorster. They
CAN'T be the same orangutan! Zaius dates "the greatest ape of all,
our Lawgiver" (as opposed to somebody ELSE's Lawgiver?) and his
writing of the Sacred Scrolls to "TWELVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO". If you
subtract 1,200 from 3978 (the date YOU believe "PLANET" takes place),
then that places him at c. 2778 A.D.

That date, Rory, is 108 YEARS after the events of the "BATTLE" frame
scenes, which are shown in a title-card to be in "NORTH AMERICA,
2670".

John Huston portrays an orangutan -- referred to by one human girl
as "Lawgiver" -- who is already OLD. Is he the "only" Lawgiver there
has ever been? We know that Caesar was a "lawgiver" since it was HE
who made it a law that nobody was to go to the Forbidden City... HE
who gave the Apes their "most sacred law" that APE SHALL NEVER KILL
APE... HE who gave the Humans the "First Law" that A HUMAN MAY NEVER
AGAIN SAY 'NO' TO AN APE...

Caesar was the FIRST ape "lawgiver". Some 600 years after his death,
another ape (an old orangutan) is ALSO a lawgiver.

And, about a century later, ANOTHER ape will be on-the-scene, who
will ALSO be called a "lawgiver" by those who take up his doctrines,
which he will put forth in the NEWER "scripture" he writes.

Lawgivers are like Popes: when one dies, another one takes his place.
Until the ONE Lawgiver comes on the scene and sets-in-stone a new
scripture intended to keep things they way they are indefinitely.
THAT is the kind of Lawgiver that founded the Ape City where Zira,
Cornelius, and Zaius live in the 40th Century. Zaius calls him "OUR
Lawgiver" -- which might imply that there are OTHER groups of Apes
who revere a DIFFERENT one.

I've got my grip "right here" buddy! YOU need to do the simplest of
math to figure this s*** out! 3978 minus 1,200 equals 2778, which is
108 years AFTER the date 2670 seen in "BATTLE". Come to grips with
THAT, Rory, or tell me why those numbers -- at face value --
shouldn't be taken as a given. MY scenario doesn't have to pretend
there's no 108-year gap between the "nice" Lawgiver and the "mean"
one! In my scenario, of course, the gap is REALLY only 85 years,
since I date "PLANET" at 3955, and the "Sacred Scrolls" Lawgiver to
c. 2755. But a LOT can happen in a mere 85 years. 85 years ago, it
was 1920; think of how different things are NOW as opposed to THEN,
Rory. Time goes on, for good or ill. The "nice" Lawgiver is the
latest in a line of 'em, tryin' to hold things together... teaching
the Young about the dangers of hatred between Ape-and-Man. It's a
FRAGILE peace, one EASILY disrupted by the disenchanted and
disenfranchised.

The gorillas. The ones who AREN'T present to hear this story of
Caesar. The ones who feel stigmatized by the fact that the first Ape
to commit Ape-on-Ape murder was Aldo... a gorilla. Someday, those
gorillas are gonna learn how to MAKE THEIR OWN GUNS (and bullets)...
and THEN, watch out! In "BATTLE", the Apes used HUMAN-MADE guns they
acquired when they defeated Breck during "CONQUEST"... but
in "PLANET" and "BENEATH" they had MADE THEIR OWN weapons. Somewhere
down the line, apes -- GORILLAS -- will learn how to make their own
guns and bullets. And THIS will give them the ability to subjugate
the hated humans...

... just as we see in the sequel to "BATTLE": the POTA TV show.

Patrick

.html.html In a message dated 5/15/05 4:09:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

You need to read more "serious SF", Rory, if you haven't come across
just the sort of "causality-loop-closing" time-travel stories that
I'm suggesting the POTA saga is.

Read "The Time Ships" by Steven Baxter, a sequel to HG Wells "The Time Machine" -- and open your mind!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dario
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:14 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Comics.

Whitty, Michael wrote:

 I bought 6 Argentinian comics that were translated into English - these are the rarely seen and are original stories based on the TV Show characters.

 

All 6 are now available to DG members.

 

They are $5 each plus postge.  This is not much more than they cost to print.

Definitely want a set of these. I forget. Do you have a paypal account? We're talking $US rigth?

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dario
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:14 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Comics.

Same with Beware the Beast - if you missed that you can get Pt 1 and Pt 2 for $5 each plus postage.

Did you make prints of the comic or are these posters? I don't remember anyone saying prints of the comics were  made. If they are the complete story then I'd like these too.

Dario

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Whitty, Michael
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 9:45 AM
To: 'PotaDG@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Comics.

Bware the Beast Part 1 and 2 are indeed comics; 22 pages each -  and these PRINTED comics have some pages (7 I think) that were not in the web release.

 

As I said, all the text is being overhauled at the request of the editor we are currently persuing so get them now - it is likely that the version you get from the newsagent when they are published will be completely different.

 

Again, if you wnat these place $10 in my paypal account and I will organise to have them printed, thn when they are ready I will let you know postage prices.

 

PayPal account is whitty@...

 

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Dario
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 10:14 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Comics.

Same with Beware the Beast - if you missed that you can get Pt 1 and Pt 2 for $5 each plus postage.

Did you make prints of the comic or are these posters? I don't remember anyone saying prints of the comics were  made. If they are the complete story then I'd like these too.

Dario

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:28 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/05 5:18:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > And don't tell me that the Lawgiver in BATTLE is the same one
that had been mean to Mankind 1,200 years before PLANET, the one
whose statue is seen in Ape City in PLANET and BENEATH -- they're not
the same orangutan!
>
> Dude, you need to read more SF.  They are the same orangutan, but
in different timelines, each having a different past that has shaped
who they are and their attitudes.  The Lawgiver in BATTLE is
a "kinder/gentlier" Lawgiver because Caesar is in his historic past. 
The Lawgiver in the history of PLANET and BENEATH has no Caesar in
his past -- because Zira and Cornelius haven't gone back in time yet
to give birth to him!
>
> Why is this so hard for you to get a grip on?
>
> -- Rory


*** Reading "more SF" is irrelevant to this argument, Rorster. They
CAN'T be the same orangutan! Zaius dates "the greatest ape of all,
our Lawgiver" (as opposed to somebody ELSE's Lawgiver?) and his
writing of the Sacred Scrolls to "TWELVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO". If you
subtract 1,200 from 3978 (the date YOU believe "PLANET" takes place),
then that places him at c. 2778 A.D.

That date, Rory, is 108 YEARS after the events of the "BATTLE" frame
scenes, which are shown in a title-card to be in "NORTH AMERICA,
2670".

John Huston portrays an orangutan -- referred to by one human girl
as "Lawgiver" -- who is already OLD. Is he the "only" Lawgiver there
has ever been? We know that Caesar was a "lawgiver" since it was HE
who made it a law that nobody was to go to the Forbidden City... HE
who gave the Apes their "most sacred law" that APE SHALL NEVER KILL
APE... HE who gave the Humans the "First Law" that A HUMAN MAY NEVER
AGAIN SAY 'NO' TO AN APE...

Caesar was the FIRST ape "lawgiver". Some 600 years after his death,
another ape (an old orangutan) is ALSO a lawgiver.

And, about a century later, ANOTHER ape will be on-the-scene, who
will ALSO be called a "lawgiver" by those who take up his doctrines,
which he will put forth in the NEWER "scripture" he writes.

Lawgivers are like Popes: when one dies, another one takes his place.
Until the ONE Lawgiver comes on the scene and sets-in-stone a new
scripture intended to keep things they way they are indefinitely.
THAT is the kind of Lawgiver that founded the Ape City where Zira,
Cornelius, and Zaius live in the 40th Century. Zaius calls him "OUR
Lawgiver" -- which might imply that there are OTHER groups of Apes
who revere a DIFFERENT one.

I've got my grip "right here" buddy! YOU need to do the simplest of
math to figure this s*** out! 3978 minus 1,200 equals 2778, which is
108 years AFTER the date 2670 seen in "BATTLE". Come to grips with
THAT, Rory, or tell me why those numbers -- at face value --
shouldn't be taken as a given. MY scenario doesn't have to pretend
there's no 108-year gap between the "nice" Lawgiver and the "mean"
one! In my scenario, of course, the gap is REALLY only 85 years,
since I date "PLANET" at 3955, and the "Sacred Scrolls" Lawgiver to
c. 2755. But a LOT can happen in a mere 85 years. 85 years ago, it
was 1920; think of how different things are NOW as opposed to THEN,
Rory. Time goes on, for good or ill. The "nice" Lawgiver is the
latest in a line of 'em, tryin' to hold things together... teaching
the Young about the dangers of hatred between Ape-and-Man. It's a
FRAGILE peace, one EASILY disrupted by the disenchanted and
disenfranchised.

The gorillas. The ones who AREN'T present to hear this story of
Caesar. The ones who feel stigmatized by the fact that the first Ape
to commit Ape-on-Ape murder was Aldo... a gorilla. Someday, those
gorillas are gonna learn how to MAKE THEIR OWN GUNS (and bullets)...
and THEN, watch out! In "BATTLE", the Apes used HUMAN-MADE guns they
acquired when they defeated Breck during "CONQUEST"... but
in "PLANET" and "BENEATH" they had MADE THEIR OWN weapons. Somewhere
down the line, apes -- GORILLAS -- will learn how to make their own
guns and bullets. And THIS will give them the ability to subjugate
the hated humans...

... just as we see in the sequel to "BATTLE": the POTA TV show.

Patrick

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of luke_the_drifter52
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 10:37 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Conquest DVD flaw??

Hey all, I watched Conquest on DVD last night and something caught my
eye when I was watching it so I compared it to my letter box VHS
version and noticed a BIG (to me) flaw. When Armando and Caesar were
standing before the dog and cat memorial, on the DVD the date that all
the dogs and cats died was cut off!! When I compared it to my VHS
copy, it was there. Has any one noticed this before? Does any one know
if the date is cut off of the letter boxed Japanesse Laser disc? If it
isn't I will have to have a copy of my LD transfered to DVD.
John

<.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 7:18 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/10/05 2:03:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> > The earlier testimony's the true one... the EARTH-TIME clocks DO
work... and there is only ONE timeline.
> >
> > In my opinion... but I'm right!
> >
> > Patrick
> >
>
> There's two timelines

*** At the end of the Caesar/Virgil/MacDonald sequences of BATTLE, it
is only suggested that it MIGHT be possible to change the Future --
not that they HAVE changed the Future. And, 600 years after Caesar's
death, their descendants, the group led by the nice Lawgiver (c. 2673
A.D.) STILL doesn't know if the Future had been changed. They only
HOPE that it had been...

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 7:18 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!

There is NO on-screen evidence of any "2nd timeline" with the sole
exception of the 500 years alluded to by Cornelius and Zira -- which
is refuted by Cornelius himself in his earlier testimony to the
Commission.

Why is it so hard to believe that those Apes could've been lying to
Hasslein regarding this??? After all, when they play the loop of Zira
saying "Dissec- Dissec- Dissec- Dissec-" and insultingly order her
to "complete the word" she'd cut short... Zira LIES to them,
suggesting that she'd had the hiccups! And Cornelius, in response to
this, begins to chuckle. Zira ALSO lies to them when she tells them
that the only reason they never told the Commission about Taylor was
because they hadn't been asked! They HAD been asked: One of the
Commission members asks, "Did you know a Colonel Taylor?" and
Cornelius responded, "No... is he a soldier?" They lied to the
Commission (for reasons explained to Dixon & Branton a little bit
later), and they later lied again to Hasslein & the Goons about their
earlier lie.

<.html

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Birthday Reminder from the Calendar of PotaDG Tom Scott's Birthday Monday May 16, 2005 All Day This event repeats every Monday through Friday. Notes: Happy Birthday Tom! (composer of the score for Conquest) Yahoo! Greetings Send a Yahoo! Birthday Greeting. Find Birthday Gifts Browse Yahoo! Shopping's Gift Guide

Copyright ©  2005  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved.

.html<.html<.html

.html.htmlFrom: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton

Why is it so hard to believe that those Apes could've been lying to
Hasslein regarding this??? After all, when they play the loop of Zira
saying "Dissec- Dissec- Dissec- Dissec-" and insultingly order her
to "complete the word" she'd cut short... Zira LIES to them,
suggesting that she'd had the hiccups!

You've got to be kidding if you seriously think that Zira is attempting a cover up when she mockingly says to them "It sounds as though I had the hiccups"... She was jokingly saying that because of the way the loop was repeatedly played over and over...

<.html <.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 1:57 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Lies

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton

Why is it so hard to believe that those Apes could've been lying to
Hasslein regarding this??? After all, when they play the loop of Zira
saying "Dissec- Dissec- Dissec- Dissec-" and insultingly order her
to "complete the word" she'd cut short... Zira LIES to them,
suggesting that she'd had the hiccups!

You've got to be kidding if you seriously think that Zira is attempting a cover up when she mockingly says to them "It sounds as though I had the hiccups"... She was jokingly saying that because of the way the loop was repeatedly played over and over...

<.html

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the PotaDG
group.

File : /Uncle Manny's Musings/UMM 10.jpg
Uploaded by : munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>
Description : Scroll 10

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Uncle%20Manny%27s%20Musings/UMM%2010.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "luke_the_drifter52"
<JLKINSER1970@h...> wrote:

> Hey all, I watched Conquest on DVD last night and something caught

my eye when I was watching it so I compared it to my letter box VHS
version and noticed a BIG (to me) flaw. When Armando and Caesar were
standing before the dog and cat memorial, on the DVD the date that all
the dogs and cats died was cut off!! When I compared it to my VHS
copy, it was there. Has any one noticed this before?

-- I must admit I had never noticed this before. Why would they have
done this? Would it have been done on purpose or is it just another in
the long line of sloppy POTA mistakes?!

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> Sure - but she is dishonest in that she did not reveal the truth.

-- Wouldn't be the first time she was not entirely truthful either
would it? She lied to Zaius in Beneath.

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "patrickmichaeltilton"
<patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:

>For 6 centuries, this story has been handed down, and taught/preached

from one leader to the next to the next to the next... with the John
Huston old Lawgiver in 2670 being merely the Pope-of-the-moment

-- This has always been my take on the Lawgiver(s) as well, that there
was not one Lawgiver but it was merely a title held by the religious
leader, at least in the Apes' earlier years.

Neil

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 3:53 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Lies

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:
> Sure - but she is dishonest in that she did not reveal the truth.

-- Wouldn't be the first time she was not entirely truthful either
would it? She lied to Zaius in Beneath.

Neil

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:02 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton"
<patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
>For 6 centuries, this story has been handed down, and taught/preached
from one leader to the next to the next to the next... with the John
Huston old Lawgiver in 2670 being merely the Pope-of-the-moment

-- This has always been my take on the Lawgiver(s) as well, that there
was not one Lawgiver but it was merely a title held by the religious
leader, at least in the Apes' earlier years.

Neil

<.html

.html

In a message dated 5/16/2005 12:54:19 A.M. Central Standard Time, nfoster@... writes:

-- Wouldn't be the first time she was not entirely truthful either
would it? She lied to Zaius in Beneath.

 

Every time she lied it was the right thing to do.

And when she did tell the truth she should have

kept it to herself.  I think had she not had an

uncontrollable urge to tell someone the terrible

secret things would have gone better.  In fact,

her Freudian slip in court was probably because

she was such a truthful person that lying wasn't

in her nature.  She just couldn't help herself.

 

<.html

Attachments :

.html

These are all Oz Fox Events, so I thought I'd pass 'em on.

<.html

Attachments :

.html

In a message dated 5/16/2005 3:36:19 A.M. Central Standard Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

These are all Oz Fox Events, so I thought I'd pass 'em on.

Scroll way down to the bottom...

I guess since it's Aussie it's Down Under.

Ooooohhhhh . . .

 

<.html

Moses is sometimes called "the lawgiver". I think THE Lawgiver would be
like an ape Moses, providing a set of laws like the Ten Commandments. But it
might also be a title passed on. Often in POTA there's things that relate
back to ancient human history. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil" <nfoster@...>
To: <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!


> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton"
> <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> >For 6 centuries, this story has been handed down, and taught/preached
> from one leader to the next to the next to the next... with the John
> Huston old Lawgiver in 2670 being merely the Pope-of-the-moment
>
> -- This has always been my take on the Lawgiver(s) as well, that there
> was not one Lawgiver but it was merely a title held by the religious
> leader, at least in the Apes' earlier years.
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html
-- <.html

.html
-- <.html

.html
-- <.html

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-- <.html

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----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Whitty

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 3:09 AM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!

I think he also wrote the sacred scrolls?

 

Or maybe (like humans) they were written later after being passed on by mouth…?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of veetus@...
Sent: Monday, 16 May 2005 7:55 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!

 

  Moses is sometimes called "the lawgiver". I think THE Lawgiver would be
like an ape Moses, providing a set of laws like the Ten Commandments. But it
might also be a title passed on. Often in POTA there's things that relate
back to ancient human history. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil" <nfoster@...>
To: <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!


> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton"
> <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> >For 6 centuries, this story has been handed down, and taught/preached
> from one leader to the next to the next to the next... with the John
> Huston old Lawgiver in 2670 being merely the Pope-of-the-moment
>
> -- This has always been my take on the Lawgiver(s) as well, that there
> was not one Lawgiver but it was merely a title held by the religious
> leader, at least in the Apes' earlier years.
>
> Neil

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by CyberOne E-Mail Spam and Virus Protection Service, and is believed to be clean from viruses. CyberOne accepts no responsibility for the content of messages in transit through our servers.
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Suspected unsolicited commercial bulk messages
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<.html

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----- Original Message -----

From: Whitty, Michael

To: 'PotaDG@yahoogroups.com'

Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 4:54 PM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!

Hey guys - would you both agree that BATTLE was left OPEN so that IF another sequel came about, the writers could CHOOSE either scenario....ie to close the circle or to show the change?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 6:28 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Buy it... you'll sleep better!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/14/05 5:18:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > And don't tell me that the Lawgiver in BATTLE is the same one
that had been mean to Mankind 1,200 years before PLANET, the one
whose statue is seen in Ape City in PLANET and BENEATH -- they're not
the same orangutan!
>
> Dude, you need to read more SF.  They are the same orangutan, but
in different timelines, each having a different past that has shaped
who they are and their attitudes.  The Lawgiver in BATTLE is
a "kinder/gentlier" Lawgiver because Caesar is in his historic past. 
The Lawgiver in the history of PLANET and BENEATH has no Caesar in
his past -- because Zira and Cornelius haven't gone back in time yet
to give birth to him!
>
> Why is this so hard for you to get a grip on?
>
> -- Rory


*** Reading "more SF" is irrelevant to this argument, Rorster. They
CAN'T be the same orangutan! Zaius dates "the greatest ape of all,
our Lawgiver" (as opposed to somebody ELSE's Lawgiver?) and his
writing of the Sacred Scrolls to "TWELVE HUNDRED YEARS AGO". If you
subtract 1,200 from 3978 (the date YOU believe "PLANET" takes place),
then that places him at c. 2778 A.D.

That date, Rory, is 108 YEARS after the events of the "BATTLE" frame
scenes, which are shown in a title-card to be in "NORTH AMERICA,
2670".

John Huston portrays an orangutan -- referred to by one human girl
as "Lawgiver" -- who is already OLD. Is he the "only" Lawgiver there
has ever been? We know that Caesar was a "lawgiver" since it was HE
who made it a law that nobody was to go to the Forbidden City... HE
who gave the Apes their "most sacred law" that APE SHALL NEVER KILL
APE... HE who gave the Humans the "First Law" that A HUMAN MAY NEVER
AGAIN SAY 'NO' TO AN APE...

Caesar was the FIRST ape "lawgiver". Some 600 years after his death,
another ape (an old orangutan) is ALSO a lawgiver.

And, about a century later, ANOTHER ape will be on-the-scene, who
will ALSO be called a "lawgiver" by those who take up his doctrines,
which he will put forth in the NEWER "scripture" he writes.

Lawgivers are like Popes: when one dies, another one takes his place.
Until the ONE Lawgiver comes on the scene and sets-in-stone a new
scripture intended to keep things they way they are indefinitely.
THAT is the kind of Lawgiver that founded the Ape City where Zira,
Cornelius, and Zaius live in the 40th Century. Zaius calls him "OUR
Lawgiver" -- which might imply that there are OTHER groups of Apes
who revere a DIFFERENT one.

I've got my grip "right here" buddy! YOU need to do the simplest of
math to figure this s*** out! 3978 minus 1,200 equals 2778, which is
108 years AFTER the date 2670 seen in "BATTLE". Come to grips with
THAT, Rory, or tell me why those numbers -- at face value --
shouldn't be taken as a given. MY scenario doesn't have to pretend
there's no 108-year gap between the "nice" Lawgiver and the "mean"
one! In my scenario, of course, the gap is REALLY only 85 years,
since I date "PLANET" at 3955, and the "Sacred Scrolls" Lawgiver to
c. 2755. But a LOT can happen in a mere 85 years. 85 years ago, it
was 1920; think of how different things are NOW as opposed to THEN,
Rory. Time goes on, for good or ill. The "nice" Lawgiver is the
latest in a line of 'em, tryin' to hold things together... teaching
the Young about the dangers of hatred between Ape-and-Man. It's a
FRAGILE peace, one EASILY disrupted by the disenchanted and
disenfranchised.

The gorillas. The ones who AREN'T present to hear this story of
Caesar. The ones who feel stigmatized by the fact that the first Ape
to commit Ape-on-Ape murder was Aldo... a gorilla. Someday, those
gorillas are gonna learn how to MAKE THEIR OWN GUNS (and bullets)...
and THEN, watch out! In "BATTLE", the Apes used HUMAN-MADE guns they
acquired when they defeated Breck during "CONQUEST"... but
in "PLANET" and "BENEATH" they had MADE THEIR OWN weapons. Somewhere
down the line, apes -- GORILLAS -- will learn how to make their own
guns and bullets. And THIS will give them the ability to subjugate
the hated humans...

... just as we see in the sequel to "BATTLE": the POTA TV show.

Patrick

.html.html In a message dated 5/15/05 7:54:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

Hey guys - would you both agree that BATTLE was left OPEN so that IF another sequel came about, the writers could CHOOSE either scenario....ie to close the circle or to show the change?

Michael

The decision that was made at Fox to cut out the scenes involving the bomb in BATTLE proves that the series was meant to be left open ended and IS NOT A TIMELESS!!!

Patrick and others just like it the other way and won't let it go.

-- Rory<.html <.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:

>The decision that was made at Fox to cut out the scenes involving the

bomb in BATTLE proves that the series was meant to be left open ended

-- But doesn't the fact that these scenes were originally filmed prove
that the writers did intend it to be a one timeline circle?

Does anyone actually know why the scenes were finally cut, was it a
time thing? And who's decision was it to cut them anyway, one of
the 'creative' people who worked on the film or one of the Fox 'suits'?

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , <veetus@e...> wrote:

> I think when "Battle" was being written they were planning another

one.

-- If they ever did make a new movie this is where I would want it
set, between Battle and Planet, a forlorn hope I suppose.

>When they were filming they decided to make it the last and tied it

up.

-- Which may be the reason they cut the bomb scenes so it could be
left open to let the audience choose how they saw the whole saga
fitting together.

Neil

Attachments :

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Attachments :

.html <.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:

> They don't ask for proof Neil!

-- Cool! I'll just have to organise for someone to kidnap my son
then! ;-)

Neil

I have to show my university ID to get the student discounted price;
US$5.

On May 16, 2005, at 5:10 PM, Michael Whitty wrote:

> They don't ask for proof Neil!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf
> Of Neil T Foster
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 May 2005 8:06 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Fwd: Star Wars opens this weekend! Your chance
> to win tickets t...
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > The previews look stunning.
>
> -- Just nicked this from my eldest son's room:
>
> <unknown.jpg>
> Now if I can manage to pass myself off as a student I'm in business!
>
> Neil .'-)
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/
>
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> --

I think it is another sloppy Planet of the Apes release mistake buy
the studio. If any one can get me an address to write to Fox I will be
happy to fire them off a letter and see if we can't get this fixed. I
try to find it on the net but didn't have any luck



In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil" <nfoster@h...> wrote:

> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "luke_the_drifter52"
> <JLKINSER1970@h...> wrote:
> > Hey all, I watched Conquest on DVD last night and something caught
> my eye when I was watching it so I compared it to my letter box VHS
> version and noticed a BIG (to me) flaw. When Armando and Caesar

were

> standing before the dog and cat memorial, on the DVD the date that

all

> the dogs and cats died was cut off!! When I compared it to my VHS
> copy, it was there. Has any one noticed this before?
>
> -- I must admit I had never noticed this before. Why would they have
> done this? Would it have been done on purpose or is it just another

in

> the long line of sloppy POTA mistakes?!
>
> Neil

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/05 2:38:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

I think there is a SPECIFIC lawgiver, but I could be wrong.

The lawgiver seems to me to be the equivqlent of God - "THOU SHALT NOT KILL" = "APE SHALL NOT KILL APE".

Michael


Since there's no indication in the series that there's more than one Lawgiver, I hold that the way to look at it is that there's only one Lawgiver.  The Lawgiver in BATTLE is supposed to be the same historical figure that referred to in the first two movies, but of course he's a "different" Lawgiver in the second timeline.

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/05 5:49:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nfoster@... writes:

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
>The decision that was made at Fox to cut out the scenes involving the
bomb in BATTLE proves that the series was meant to be left open ended

-- But doesn't the fact that these scenes were originally filmed prove
that the writers did intend it to be a one timeline circle?

Perhaps, but Mendez's dialogue doesn't make it sound that way and the last lines of the picture sure make it seem to me that it was all rather ambigous.

-- Rory<.html <.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/15/05 4:09:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > You need to read more "serious SF", Rory, if you haven't come

across just the sort of "causality-loop-closing" time-travel stories
that I'm suggesting the POTA saga is.

>
> Read "The Time Ships" by Steven Baxter, a sequel to HG Wells "The

Time Machine" -- and open your mind!

>
> -- Rory

*** My mind is open, and I dig SF stories that DO involve changing
history the way you advocate (the "BACK TO THE FUTURE" movies are
just this sort of thing). I haven't read Baxter's book (maybe someday
I will, if I find the time -- right not I'm re-reading the
HITCHHIKER'S series again), but no matter how good "THE TIME SHIPS"
may be, it isn't the be-all and end-all of SF time-travel stories, is
it? Asimov's "THE END OF ETERNITY" also involves history-changing
time travelers, as does "THE DEAD ZONE" by Stephen King. But then
there's "12 MONKEYS" in which a time traveler doesn't and may CAN'T
change his Past -- all he does is FULFILL it (witness the photo of
him from the World War 1 era, and all that).

Is POTA (the 5-film saga) a "closed timeloop" type of time travel
story, or a "two timelines" CHANGED Past type of story? My next post
will address a question Mike posed...

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:

> Hey guys - would you both agree that BATTLE was left OPEN so that

IF another sequel came about, the writers could CHOOSE either
scenario....ie to close the circle or to show the change?

>
> Michael

*** YES! But in order for the Future seen in "BENEATH" to be
irrefutably changed so that Doomsday does NOT happen, at the very
LEAST the Doomsday Bomb must be rendered inactive. Remember when
Brent asks the Mutants about it? "The firing mechanism... it's
intact, isn't it?!" All it would take is to render that gizmo
inoperable, and Taylor -- even if he purposely TRIES to detonate it --
will be unable to do so.

As long as that Bomb exists, NOBODY in either Ape or Human or Mutant
society's posterity is safe.

In a post-"BATTLE" movie, there would have to be some sort of
friendly connection made between the Ape-and-Human peaceniks and the
Gorillas AND the Mutants. Not impossible, but HIGHLY unlikely, in my
opinion. The fact that there are NO gorillas in the nice Lawgiver's
group suggests that they either are NOT welcome amongst the chimps,
orangs and humans, or they don't FEEL welcome -- perhaps due to the
historical fact that Aldo, a gorilla, MURDERED AN APE and was the
very first to do so. He's the equivalent of CAIN to this group,
perhaps. And all other gorillas bear the stigma of that. It seems
that it wasn't enough for Aldo's "friends" to give up their weapons
and hang their heads in shame, and for one of 'em to admit, "Aldo...
you killed!" just before Caesar got retribution.

Here's a project for somebody with the wherewithal to do this: Hey,
Neil (?), you know those panoramic shots you did as frame-grabs from
the "RETURN" cartoon? Could ya do one taking stills from the end
of "BATTLE" from that pan-shot from the Lawgiver to the right,
showing all the kids in his audience, all the way to the statue of
Caesar? Just make one big panorama pic connecting the frames? That
way, we'd see that there are NO gorillas in the group, and why I'm
harping on this fact so much of late!

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@a... wrote:

> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [ PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On

Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton

>
> > Why is it so hard to believe that those Apes could've been lying

to Hasslein regarding this??? After all, when they play the loop of
Zira saying "Dissec- Dissec- Dissec- Dissec-" and insultingly order
her to "complete the word" she'd cut short... Zira LIES to them,
suggesting that she'd had the hiccups!

>
> You've got to be kidding if you seriously think that Zira is

attempting a cover up when she mockingly says to them "It sounds as
though I had the hiccups"... She was jokingly saying that because of
the way the loop was repeatedly played over and over...
---------------------------------------------------------------
*** No, I'm NOT kidding. Zira, if she were to be totally truthful to
these not-so-nice humans, would freely admit that she had DISSECTED
human subjects in her laboratory. When she eventually DOES admit
this, it's ONLY because Hasslein had Dixon shoot her up with sodium
pentothal, so that she UNWILLINGLY divulged the horrific things she'd
done as a scientist on human 'animals'.

But before she'd been forced into that drugged testimony, she made a
JOKE of the whole matter, pretending it sounded as if she'd had the
hiccups. If you were interrogating somebody who'd done a Freudian
slip and practically admitted committing atrocities on people you
loved, and then tried passing it off as a JOKE... I think you'd
consider them beneath contempt. That's how Zira's interrogators view
her, obviously. First she commits an ATROCITY; then she slips and
almost divulges this to the Commission; then, when confronted with
the unfinished word "Dissec-", she LIES to them, making it all some
sort of JOKE -- which is why Cornelius chuckles at it. Neither
her "hiccups" line nor Cornelius' chuckling afterwards would be
liable to endear them to their interrogators.

She ain't being truthful, and they end up forcing the truth out of
her with truth-serum.

She's lucky that the interrogators didn't question the validity of
the stuff she and Cornelius had spoken of earlier (the Plague,
the "500 years" business", etc) while she was under the influence of
the drug, because she would've then told 'em what was True and what
was Somewhat True and what may have been False. The drug wears off
before they can get to that, though...

Patrick

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/05 9:10:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Is POTA (the 5-film saga) a "closed timeloop" type of time travel
story, or a "two timelines" CHANGED Past type of story? My next post
will address a question Mike posed...

Patrick

You're problem, Patrick, is that you have no problem rewriting PLANET to make it fit with the rest of the series, the earth time date of 3978 being just one example.  I, on the other hand, simply respect the original film too much to alter one detail about it, hence anything in BENEATH and the later sequels that does jibe with PLANET is an inconsistency on their part, not something in the original that should be changed -- and that's that with me.

You, Patrick, just don't have the kind of respect for the original film that I do.  You put the series of movies ahead of the original.  I don't.

You disrespect PLANET.

-- Rory<.html <.html

*** My take on this is that CAESAR was the first Lawgiver (we know he
gave the Apes and Humans in the Treehouse "Ape City" their laws,
since he was their King). After this, the group of Chimps + Orangs +
Humans continued on, with a leader holding the Title "Lawgiver" whose
job it is to keep the society aware of their Past, so that they may
learn from the mistakes of the Past and perhaps prevent
the "prophesied" Future of the Earth's destruction in "3950" (the
date Caesar heard his mom say).

But the Gorillas somehow split from this peacenik group sometime
prior to 2670. Perhaps some Orangutans who disliked Humans also split
with the Gorillas, being less like Virgil and Mandemus and more like
Zaius in temperament. So we have TWO different cultures, one of which
is comprised of Apes + Humans living in 'harmony' of a sort, and the
other of which still considers Humans to be dangerous scum to be
dominated. And EACH group, perhaps, has its OWN "lawgiver", since
they'd each have DIFFERENT LAWS governing them.

Zaius, in "PLANET", Jeff, refers to "the greatest ape of all, OUR
LAWGIVER"; I've suggested that THIS line may refer to the notion that
a different group of Apes (and Humans) may venerate or follow the
teachings of a Lawgiver who is NOT the one Zaius refers to as "our"
Lawgiver. Just as Mohammed is "our prophet" (so a Muslim would say),
no Jew or Christian would consider him to be a true prophet; in the
Middle Ages, Christians considered Mohammed to be a Schismatic, a
believer who had formed his OWN religion under the pretense of being
another prophet of the God of the Book. The Apes are not above
concocting their own religions, either -- witness Caesar's
promise/threat to Breck and MacDonald in his rant at the end
of "CONQUEST" -- "we will found our own religion" he says.

A couple years ago, I suggested once that the Lawgiver seen
in "BATTLE" (portrayed by John Huston) does NOT look like whoever it
was who posed for the statues that we see in "PLANET" and "BENEATH".
If those Lawgiver statues are fairly accurate likenesses of their
subject, then they AIN'T the same ape. After all, the statue of
Caesar looks enough like Roddy-in-makeup to call this into question.
I remember asking somebody (at the old POTA group) with the ability
to post two side-by-side pics of the Lawgiver STATUE and the John
Huston Lawgiver... but James, who posted a pic of John Huston without
makeup, blew it off as a joke. Ah, well. Maybe somebody here can do
it, and we can compare and contrast the two images. Whether anybody
considers it "proof" or "evidence" depends on how they look at it.

Patrick
---------------------------------------------------------------------

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, <veetus@e...> wrote:
> In "Planet" the Lawgiver is definitely one ape. Zaius calls
him "the greatest ape of all". But as with our history, who knows?
The Sacred Scrolls could've been written by many individuals and
credited to one. - - - Jeff
>
----- Original Message ---------------------------------------------
> From: Michael Whitty
>
> I think he also wrote the sacred scrolls?

>
> Or maybe (like humans) they were written later after being passed
on by mouth.?
>
-----Original Message-----------------------------------------------
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com ] On
Behalf Of veetus@e...
>
> Moses is sometimes called "the lawgiver". I think THE Lawgiver
would be like an ape Moses, providing a set of laws like the Ten
Commandments. But it might also be a title passed on. Often in POTA
there's things that relate back to ancient human history. - - - Jeff
>
----- Original Message ---------------------------------------------
> From: "Neil" <nfoster@h...>
>
> > --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton"
> > <patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> For 6 centuries, this story has been handed down, and
taught/preached from one leader to the next to the next to the
next... with the John Huston old Lawgiver in 2670 being merely the
Pope-of-the-moment
> >
-- This has always been my take on the Lawgiver(s) as well, that
there was not one Lawgiver but it was merely a title held by the
religious leader, at least in the Apes' earlier years.
> >
> > Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , <veetus@e...> wrote:

> I think when "Battle" was being written they were planning

another one. When they were filming they decided to make it the last
and tied it up. Even then, when Jacobs was still alive, they were
planning a TV show. But it's just as well "Battle" was the last.
Jacobs wouldn't have lived to see another movie. - - - Jeff

*** The opening scene of "PLANET" takes place in the EARTH-TIME date
2673, and the frame-scenes of "BATTLE" take place in 2670. This has
always suggested to me that "BATTLE" was intended to be the final
film, "closing the circle" in a way. It ends almost EXACTLY where it
began. Caesar's statue weeps at the same time that Taylor begins his
Final Report, addressed to those back on Earth whom he thinks are "a
different breed... I hope a better one."

Man was once a "glorious paradox who sent [Taylor] to the stars"...
and they've wound up existing in a pastoral, idyllic forest with no
technological advancement whatsoever. They've regressed,
technologically speaking. No cars, no airplanes, certainly no more
spaceships!

I think those two dates -- 2673 ("PLANET") and 2670 ("BATTLE") -- say
it all, regarding the intentions for further movie sequels.

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/16/05 2:38:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Michael.Whitty@d... writes:
>
>
> > I think there is a SPECIFIC lawgiver, but I could be wrong.
> >
> > The lawgiver seems to me to be the equivqlent of God - "THOU

SHALT NOT KILL" = "APE SHALL NOT KILL APE".

> >
> > Michael
> >
>
> Since there's no indication in the series that there's more than

one Lawgiver, I hold that the way to look at it is that there's only
one Lawgiver. The Lawgiver in BATTLE is supposed to be the same
historical figure that referred to in the first two movies, but of
course he's a "different" Lawgiver in the second timeline.

>
> -- Rory

*** No indication? You keep ignoring the dates, Rory. Zaius dates the
writing of the "Sacred Scrolls" BY 'HIS' LAWGIVER at "twelve hundred
years ago" -- 1,200 years before "PLANET" takes place. You'd date it
at 2778 (taking 3978 as PLANET's date), whereas I'd date it at 2755
(taking 3955 as PLANET's date).

These two dates are 85 and 108 years (respectively) AFTER the date
2670 when the "BATTLE" Lawgiver exists, already an OLD person. That's
more than enough indication that they aren't -- and CANT' BE -- the
same "Lawgiver".

Zaius calls the "mean" one "the greatest ape of all, OUR Lawgiver",
which may indicate that another group has a DIFFERENT one, one who
does NOT advocate the mistreatment of humans.

Patrick

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/05 9:55:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

But the Gorillas somehow split from this peacenik group sometime
prior to 2670.

According to Cornelius in PLANET there were once "carnivorous gorillas."  These were probably mad, irradiated gorillas that lived in savage bands on the outskirts of the Forbidden Zone -- IN THE ORIGINAL TIMELINE, Patrick, not in your silly Roswell inspired timeloop!

I never knew before, Patrick, that you had such a "thing" about gorillas.  You sound like you don't like gorillas very much.

-- Rory<.html <.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 5/15/05 7:54:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Michael.Whitty@d... writes:
>
>
> > Hey guys - would you both agree that BATTLE was left OPEN so that

IF another sequel came about, the writers could CHOOSE either
scenario....ie to close the circle or to show the change?

> >
> > Michael
> >
>
> The decision that was made at Fox to cut out the scenes involving

the bomb in BATTLE proves that the series was meant to be left open
ended and IS NOT A TIMELESS!!!

>
> Patrick and others just like it the other way and won't let it go.
>
> -- Rory

*** The ONLY reason those scenes were edited out were so that they
could have 1 more showing of "BATTLE" per day, to increase profits.
It wasn't made for any CREATIVE reason. Did Thompson cut out those
scenes due to violent content, the way he was forced to cut some of
the more gruesome stuff from "CONQUEST"? No. The Doomsday Bomb scenes
were cut for TIME, so they could wedge in another showing each day.
And the scenes ARE present on the Japanese laserdisc set (weren't the
scenes also seen in foreign release?). And there's dialogue in the
edited-down version which doesn't make any sense unless you include
those clipped scenes. Kolp tells Alma "Wait for my signal"... to do
what? It's only when we know that his "signal" would be for her to
detonate the Bomb, since the Apes defeated Kolp's forces, that that
line can make any sense at all.

I don't care if the domestic cut of the film doesn't have the scenes
in it -- the FULLEST filmed version does have 'em, and that makes 'em
canon as far as I'm concerned.

Patrick

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/05 10:03:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Caesar's statue weeps at the same time that Taylor begins his
Final Report, addressed to those back on Earth whom he thinks are "a
different breed... I hope a better one."

Wrong, Patrick.  Taylor makes his "Final Report" hundreds of years before the final scene of BATTLE.

What you fail to understand, Patrick, is that time only moves in one direction, from the past into the future, just not necessarily into the same future.  Time is like a highway with an infinite number of lanes, none of which loop back on themselves.

You see, what's so ridiculous about your view that the APES series is a timeloop is that it suggests that EVERYTHING in the universe loops back on itself.  If it happens to the earth, then it would also have to be happening to the entire universe.  That's absurd!  You ignore that basic physical reality of the expanding universe.  There is "time" because the universe is expanding and breaking down.  And the current best theories are that the universe will continue to expand until it thins ut to nothing and time ends.

There just is no such thing as a timeloop -- except in your mind!

-- Rory<.html <.html

Why assume that it's an accurate likeness? Depictions of religious
figures are almost always highly idealized, while political leaders,
like Caesar, are usually immortalized much more accurately.

On May 16, 2005, at 8:53 PM, patrickmichaeltilton wrote:

> ...
> A couple years ago, I suggested once that the Lawgiver seen
> in "BATTLE" (portrayed by John Huston) does NOT look like whoever it
> was who posed for the statues that we see in "PLANET" and "BENEATH".
> If those Lawgiver statues are fairly accurate likenesses of their
> subject, then they AIN'T the same ape...

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/05 10:05:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

These two dates are 85 and 108 years (respectively) AFTER the date
2670 when the "BATTLE" Lawgiver exists, already an OLD person. That's
more than enough indication that they aren't -- and CANT' BE -- the
same "Lawgiver".

You're right, they're not the same Lawgiver, just as when you take the events of BATTLE forward 2000 years or so you're not going to find the same Cornelius and Zira or Dr. Zaius -- because you're on a different timeline than the one you see in PLANET!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/05 10:19:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, abmac@... writes:

Why assume that it's an accurate likeness?

Patrick tends to take things too literally.  He's a detail nut.  All the dots have to connect, it all has to make sense.  He's mad, I tell you!  Maaaaad!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/2005 1:38:39 AM Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

I think there is a SPECIFIC lawgiver, but I could be wrong.

No, you're right... There is only one Lawgiver... It is not a position equal to that of the Pope...<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/2005 5:09:59 AM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

I think he also wrote the sacred scrolls?

Yes, he did...<.html <.html

.html

Anniversary Reminder from the Calendar of PotaDG The novel Planet of the Apes (Monkey Planet) published Tuesday May 17, 2005 All Day This event repeats every year. Notes: The novel Planet of the Apes (Monkey Planet) by Pierre Boulle was published on this day in 1963. Thanks for getting the ball rolling Pierre! Yahoo! Greetings Send a Yahoo! Anniversary Greeting. Find Anniversary Gifts Browse Yahoo! Shopping's Gift Guide

Copyright ©  2005  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved.

.html<.html<.html

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Birthday Reminder from the Calendar of PotaDG Tom Scott's Birthday Tuesday May 17, 2005 All Day This event repeats every Monday through Friday. Notes: Happy Birthday Tom! (composer of the score for Conquest) Yahoo! Greetings Send a Yahoo! Birthday Greeting. Find Birthday Gifts Browse Yahoo! Shopping's Gift Guide

Copyright ©  2005  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved.

.html<.html<.html

.html.html In a message dated 5/16/2005 6:56:46 PM Central Standard Time, JLKINSER1970@... writes:

I think it is another sloppy Planet of the Apes release mistake buy
the studio. If any one can get me an address to write to Fox I will be
happy to fire them off a letter and see if we can't get this fixed. I
try to find it on the net but didn't have any luck

Good luck on getting a reply from them... They never reply to anything...

<.html <.html