Yahoo! potadg group — Messages 29868–29967

Dates: 2005-06-23 through 2005-06-26

Messages in potadg group. Page 112 of 451.
Index Prev  Next


Group: potadg Message: 29868 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29869 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29870 From: PofTAfan@aol.com Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29871 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29872 From: Neil Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29873 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29874 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29875 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29876 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Home Page Picture
Group: potadg Message: 29877 From: Neil Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
Group: potadg Message: 29878 From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: New file uploaded to PotaDG
Group: potadg Message: 29879 From: Dario Sciola Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29880 From: Dario Sciola Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
Group: potadg Message: 29881 From: John Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
Group: potadg Message: 29882 From: Dario Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Point Dume residents (OT)
Group: potadg Message: 29883 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Point Dume residents (OT)
Group: potadg Message: 29884 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
Group: potadg Message: 29885 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29886 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29887 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29888 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29889 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29890 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29891 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29892 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
Group: potadg Message: 29893 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29894 From: PofTAfan@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29895 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29896 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
Group: potadg Message: 29897 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29898 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29899 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29900 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29901 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29902 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29903 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
Group: potadg Message: 29904 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Interesting Script
Group: potadg Message: 29905 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29906 From: Greg Plonowski Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29907 From: PhoenixCa7@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
Group: potadg Message: 29908 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
Group: potadg Message: 29909 From: PhoenixCa7@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
Group: potadg Message: 29910 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
Group: potadg Message: 29911 From: mlccougar@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29912 From: Jake Le Master Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Interesting Script
Group: potadg Message: 29913 From: Jake Le Master Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29914 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29915 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29916 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29917 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
Group: potadg Message: 29918 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29919 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29920 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29921 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29922 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29923 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29924 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29925 From: mlccougar@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29926 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"
Group: potadg Message: 29927 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
Group: potadg Message: 29928 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Interesting Script
Group: potadg Message: 29929 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29930 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29931 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29932 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29933 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"
Group: potadg Message: 29934 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"
Group: potadg Message: 29935 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29936 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29937 From: Tim Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: PLOOG!
Group: potadg Message: 29938 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
Group: potadg Message: 29939 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
Group: potadg Message: 29940 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
Group: potadg Message: 29941 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29942 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
Group: potadg Message: 29943 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
Group: potadg Message: 29944 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29945 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
Group: potadg Message: 29946 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
Group: potadg Message: 29947 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Mr Ploog
Group: potadg Message: 29948 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29949 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"
Group: potadg Message: 29950 From: mlccougar@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29951 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
Group: potadg Message: 29952 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
Group: potadg Message: 29953 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Filmed-yet-edited out scenes
Group: potadg Message: 29954 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Rory's just bein' petulant...
Group: potadg Message: 29955 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Brent's different orbit...
Group: potadg Message: 29956 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Filmed-yet-edited out scenes
Group: potadg Message: 29957 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Rory's just bein' petulant...
Group: potadg Message: 29958 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Rory's just bein' petulant...
Group: potadg Message: 29959 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Rory's just bein' petulant...
Group: potadg Message: 29960 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Manageable chunks
Group: potadg Message: 29961 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
Group: potadg Message: 29962 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
Group: potadg Message: 29963 From: John Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
Group: potadg Message: 29964 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
Group: potadg Message: 29965 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
Group: potadg Message: 29966 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
Group: potadg Message: 29967 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks



Group: potadg Message: 29868 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
.html
Ummmm...it still had some disturbing shit going on!

Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 7:50 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Map and Distances (Revised)

In a message dated 6/22/2005 6:53:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:
I think it's because BENEATH was, in many ways, made for a more juvenile audience.  It's just not as adult as the original.
 
Thank you!  Spot on!
That is where they went off the rails.
They should have gone for a GP
rating. I think that hybrid kid would
have pretty much guaranteed that.
<.html

<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29869 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/22/05 11:50:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PofTAfan@... writes:


If you really want to blame someone for the fiasco that was Beneath you should blame the executives at Fox studios who cut the budget from 10 million to 3.5 million dollars. The studios rushed Beneath to the screen , not for the fans but to make money. I'm not blaming Abrahams and Dehn for Beneath, but I will blame Fox for this.



I think the original budget was only around $4.5 M and was cut to 3.5 M.  You have to remember that the studio was in tough financial straights back then, the big budget musical mistakes were killing them.

Anyway, I found this in POTA REVISITED about BENEATH:

"Next to the fifth film in the series, Battle for the Planet of the Apes, Beneath is generally considered the weakest link.  Surprisingly, Ted Post is well aware of the film's shortcomings and did everything in his power to allow it to match the power of the original, but was seemingly thwarted at every turn.

'I was very unhappy with the script,' says Post, 'and I thought the script was far from what it should have been.  And the input of one particular individual -- Mort Abrahams -- was so cliche and so hackneyed and so absolutely impossible to change or rectify or even in some way improve because of his power and his highly articulate way of getting his power across, that I think he screwed it.'"

So, there you go, fellow POTA fans.  Believe me, I don't like it, and I was disappointed with BENEATH the very first time I saw it, and I've been wishing it were so much better for over thirty years now, but even its directed says the movie was "screwed," as in "screwed up."

What do you say to that, Patrick?

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29870 From: PofTAfan@aol.com Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
.html
Actually Beneath was more of an anti war film than a sci-fi movie. I don't think it was a juvenile film, it might have been aimed more towards the younger generation like late teens and 20 to 30 years old.
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29871 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
.html
RORY
 
What would you have done?

If we were to go back and write a sequel, ignoring the existence of Beneath - what would you do?
-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 8:29 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?

In a message dated 6/22/05 11:50:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PofTAfan@... writes:


If you really want to blame someone for the fiasco that was Beneath you should blame the executives at Fox studios who cut the budget from 10 million to 3.5 million dollars. The studios rushed Beneath to the screen , not for the fans but to make money. I'm not blaming Abrahams and Dehn for Beneath, but I will blame Fox for this.



I think the original budget was only around $4.5 M and was cut to 3.5 M.  You have to remember that the studio was in tough financial straights back then, the big budget musical mistakes were killing them.

Anyway, I found this in POTA REVISITED about BENEATH:

"Next to the fifth film in the series, Battle for the Planet of the Apes, Beneath is generally considered the weakest link.  Surprisingly, Ted Post is well aware of the film's shortcomings and did everything in his power to allow it to match the power of the original, but was seemingly thwarted at every turn.

'I was very unhappy with the script,' says Post, 'and I thought the script was far from what it should have been.  And the input of one particular individual -- Mort Abrahams -- was so cliche and so hackneyed and so absolutely impossible to change or rectify or even in some way improve because of his power and his highly articulate way of getting his power across, that I think he screwed it.'"

So, there you go, fellow POTA fans.  Believe me, I don't like it, and I was disappointed with BENEATH the very first time I saw it, and I've been wishing it were so much better for over thirty years now, but even its directed says the movie was "screwed," as in "screwed up."

What do you say to that, Patrick?

-- Rory
<.html

<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29872 From: Neil Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:
>So, there you go, fellow POTA fans. Believe me, I don't like it, and
I was disappointed with BENEATH the very first time I saw it, and I've
been wishing it were so much better for over thirty years now, but
even its directed says the movie was "screwed," as in "screwed up."

-- Ah well, I still like it. For all it's short comings it is still my
favourite sequel.

Neil
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29873 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/23/05 6:43:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PofTAfan@... writes:


Actually Beneath was more of an anti war film than a sci-fi movie. I don't think it was a juvenile film, it might have been aimed more towards the younger generation like late teens and 20 to 30 years old.


Some of us here, now in our forties, would say most people younger than 30, and certainly all teenagers, are often quite juvenile!
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29874 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
.html
But you can TRUST them!  ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2005 8:55 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Map and Distances (Revised)

In a message dated 6/23/05 6:43:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PofTAfan@... writes:


Actually Beneath was more of an anti war film than a sci-fi movie. I don't think it was a juvenile film, it might have been aimed more towards the younger generation like late teens and 20 to 30 years old.


Some of us here, now in our forties, would say most people younger than 30, and certainly all teenagers, are often quite juvenile!

<.html

<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29875 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/23/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/23/2005 5:47:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:
What would you have done?
 
I know what I would have done.  I'd scrape the Brent character
all together, and the mutants -- at least their telepathic powers.
It would have picked up with the trial of Zira and Cornelius, with
a parallel plotline of Taylor and Nova in the Forbidden Zone. And
there would have been another tribe of humans out there, maybe
mutants, maybe just more intelligent then the subhumans like
Nova.  And Z & C would have been banished or escaped to the
Zone and helped the humans free the subhumans.  And maybe
the bomb in there too, at a threat, but then the ape don't know
how bad it is and the attack and it's set off anyway by whoever.
 
The End
 
Now that would have been better than what they came up with.
No sequels.  But it would have made enough for them to find
a way.  Maybe just go back and show how it started, without
time traveling back.  Then it would have been the full circle.
 
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29876 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Home Page Picture
.html
Neil,

LOVE the new picture!

http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/

"Oh my God, they killed DODGE! You BASTARDS!"

Michael
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29877 From: Neil Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
>LOVE the new picture!
> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/
> "Oh my God, they killed DODGE! You BASTARDS!"

-- Actually this one is the fault of my kids. A combination of school
holidays and too much South Park fried their brains and they started
making these figures in a paint program. The gorilla was done by Ray
and Tim did Taylor.

Neil
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29878 From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: New file uploaded to PotaDG
.html
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the PotaDG
group.

File : /Uncle Manny's Musings/UMM 14.jpg
Uploaded by : munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>
Description : Scroll 14

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Uncle%20Manny%27s%20Musings/UMM%2014.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29879 From: Dario Sciola Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
Drifting off a bit from "who's fault was it" and just focusing on
beneath itself, like Russo (POTA Revisited ), it too have always felt
the Battle and Beneath are the least favorable movies.

I do flip flop on which is the worst since both still do present
something new to the table.

I think Beneath's strenght is that it introduced the Mutant
civilization and of course Ursus (as brief as he lasted). The
unfortunate part was the execution of Beneath as a sequel an how much
of it was a rehash of what we had seen in POTA. It was a quick 'make a
buck while it's still hot' movie and it shows.

Battle, while not providing any new concepts has always been
considered (to me at least) as an attempt to put closure to the
series. Yes, we've all discussed the flaws and problems with
the 'circular time loop' theory and I don't want to rehash all of
that, but on the simplest of terms, I think that that's what Dehn was
at least attempting to state. The one big message from Battle was that
Apes were indeed as flawed as mankind and that like mankind, they
would have to learn to live with that fact.

Just my 2 Cents...

Dario

----- Original Message -----
From: Haristas@...
Date: Thursday, June 23, 2005 6:28 pm
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?

> In a message dated 6/22/05 11:50:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> PofTAfan@... writes:
>
>
> > If you really want to blame someone for the fiasco that was
> Beneath you
> > should blame the executives at Fox studios who cut the budget
> from 10 million
> > to 3.5 million dollars. The studios rushed Beneath to the screen
> , not for the
> > fans but to make money. I'm not blaming Abrahams and Dehn for
> Beneath, but I
> > will blame Fox for this.
> >
> >
>
> I think the original budget was only around $4.5 M and was cut to
> 3.5 M. You
> have to remember that the studio was in tough financial straights
> back then,
> the big budget musical mistakes were killing them.
>
> Anyway, I found this in POTA REVISITED about BENEATH:
>
> "Next to the fifth film in the series, Battle for the Planet of
> the Apes,
> Beneath is generally considered the weakest link. Surprisingly,
> Ted Post is well
> aware of the film's shortcomings and did everything in his power
> to allow it
> to match the power of the original, but was seemingly thwarted at
> every turn.
>
> 'I was very unhappy with the script,' says Post, 'and I thought
> the script
> was far from what it should have been. And the input of one
> particular
> individual -- Mort Abrahams -- was so cliche and so hackneyed and
> so absolutely
> impossible to change or rectify or even in some way improve
> because of his power and
> his highly articulate way of getting his power across, that I
> think he
> screwed it.'"
>
> So, there you go, fellow POTA fans. Believe me, I don't like it,
> and I was
> disappointed with BENEATH the very first time I saw it, and I've
> been wishing
> it were so much better for over thirty years now, but even its
> directed says
> the movie was "screwed," as in "screwed up."
>
> What do you say to that, Patrick?
>
> -- Rory
>
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29880 From: Dario Sciola Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
.html
Agreed! That is SO Cool!

I wish some of the South Park people could see this. I'm sure this
would open up possibilities to be incorporated into a future episode.

Awesome! Think about it...
Lobotomized Landon rolling around in "Timmy"'s wheelchair.
Cartman's mom prancing around in Nova-like shreded bikini.
Mutant SP figures.

Thanks Neil!

Dario


----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Whitty <whitty@...>
Date: Friday, June 24, 2005 5:36 am
Subject: [PotaDG] Home Page Picture

> Neil,
>
> LOVE the new picture!
>
> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/
>
> "Oh my God, they killed DODGE! You BASTARDS!"
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29881 From: John Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
.html
Yes, this new home page picture is my favorite in sometime. Great job.
Now you have to update your Muppet/ Planet of the Apes crossover with
a full color home page pic. :)




--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Neil,
>
> LOVE the new picture!
>
> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/
>
> "Oh my God, they killed DODGE! You BASTARDS!"
>
> Michael
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29882 From: Dario Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Point Dume residents (OT)
.html
Just as we are in the midst of discussing Point Dume, I happen to be
watching a few minutes of Leno last night and there was Don Rickles
talking about his recent move there. He also mentioned that Johnny
Carson himself lived there up until he passed away.

(Forgive the transgression for those who may not be familiar with
these guys. While the "The Tonight Show" was a onetime staple of North
American late night TV, I believe that those from 'across the pond'
and perhaps those 'down under' may not know what/who I'm talking
about.)

My favorite Rickles story (which he repeated last night):

Don was sitting in a night club one night and saw his good friend
Frank Sinitra walk in. So he leaves his guest at the table and
approaches Frank and tells him how great it would be if he could come
over to his table and start talking to Don which would impress Don's
friend. Sinatra agrees and the men split up, Don going back to his
table.

After a few discreet minutes Frank Sinatra casually walks up to the
table with Don and his guest and yells out "Don old pal, how's it
going?"

Rickles then stands up and looks insulted, and answers "Frankie, do
you mind? I'm with someone here!"
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29883 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Point Dume residents (OT)
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/24/2005 3:30:38 P.M. Central Standard Time, darios@... writes:
Rickles then stands up and looks insulted, and answers "Frankie, do
you mind? I'm with someone here!"
 
LOL!  That is classic Rickles!  I saw him in Vegas in the late 60's or
early 70's.  I heard another great Frank story from Paul Anka.  He and
Sinatra are in one of the old mod hotels --I think it was the Sands --
anyway, it was pretty late and their pretty drunk and one of the
mob guys asks them to leave.  Frank gets indignant and jumps
on one of the tables and starts spouting off how he "built this
F***in' place!" and they pull him down and punch his teeth
out.   They picked up his teeth, hop on a jet, fly to Paris
for dinner, and get his teeth put back in at his dentist in
New York on the way.  Those were the days, eh?
 
 
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29884 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
.html
.html

Great ideas!

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dario Sciola
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 3:33 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Home Page Picture

 

Agreed! That is SO Cool!

I wish some of the South Park people could see this. I'm sure this
would open up possibilities to be incorporated into a future episode.

Awesome! Think about it...
Lobotomized Landon rolling around in "Timmy"'s wheelchair.
Cartman's mom prancing around in Nova-like shreded bikini.
Mutant SP figures.

Thanks Neil!

Dario


----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Whitty <whitty@...>
Date: Friday, June 24, 2005 5:36 am
Subject: [PotaDG] Home Page Picture

> Neil,
>
> LOVE the new picture!
>
> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/
>
> "Oh my God, they killed DODGE!  You BASTARDS!"


-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29885 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html

From a member who wishes to remain anonymous….. 

 

 

Thanks!

 

Michael

<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29886 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/23/2005 3:30:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:
In a message dated 6/22/05 11:50:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PofTAfan@... writes:


If you really want to blame someone for the fiasco that was Beneath you should blame the executives at Fox studios who cut the budget from 10 million to 3.5 million dollars. The studios rushed Beneath to the screen , not for the fans but to make money. I'm not blaming Abrahams and Dehn for Beneath, but I will blame Fox for this.



I think the original budget was only around $4.5 M and was cut to 3.5 M.  You have to remember that the studio was in tough financial straights back then, the big budget musical mistakes were killing them.

Anyway, I found this in POTA REVISITED about BENEATH:

"Next to the fifth film in the series, Battle for the Planet of the Apes, Beneath is generally considered the weakest link.  Surprisingly, Ted Post is well aware of the film's shortcomings and did everything in his power to allow it to match the power of the original, but was seemingly thwarted at every turn.

'I was very unhappy with the script,' says Post, 'and I thought the script was far from what it should have been.  And the input of one particular individual -- Mort Abrahams -- was so cliche and so hackneyed and so absolutely impossible to change or rectify or even in some way improve because of his power and his highly articulate way of getting his power across, that I think he screwed it.'"

So, there you go, fellow POTA fans.  Believe me, I don't like it, and I was disappointed with BENEATH the very first time I saw it, and I've been wishing it were so much better for over thirty years now, but even its directed says the movie was "screwed," as in "screwed up."

What do you say to that, Patrick?

-- Rory
 
  • I wish that a sequel to Planet had gone in another direction, maybe focusing on ape society or Taylor and Nova living in the jungle, starting a family etc. Elaine 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29887 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/24/05 8:39:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, taebokitti@... writes:



I wish that a sequel to Planet had gone in another direction, maybe focusing on ape society or Taylor and Nova living in the jungle, starting a family etc. Elaine


That's what Pierre Boulle wanted to do.  They should have just taken Boulle's PLANET OF THE MEN script and got another writer or two to polish it.

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29888 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
.html

It’s been a while since I read that script – could you tell me what happened in it and how it MIGHT have been made more “Hollywood Friendly”?  I seem to recall it was fairly CEREBRAL.

 

I suppose if they gave the script to Serling and Wilson…..?

 

Did Boulle ever comment on Beneath or any of the others?

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 10:42 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?

 

In a message dated 6/24/05 8:39:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, taebokitti@... writes:




I wish that a sequel to Planet had gone in another direction, maybe focusing on ape society or Taylor and Nova living in the jungle, starting a family etc. Elaine



That's what Pierre Boulle wanted to do.  They should have just taken Boulle's PLANET OF THE MEN script and got another writer or two to polish it.

-- Rory

--
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29889 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html Just awesome! Our pota musical has arrived! Makes me want to fly to Germany to see it. Thanks for sharing this, Michael. Elaine<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29890 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/24/05 8:55:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, taebokitti@... writes:


Just awesome! Our pota musical has arrived! Makes me want to fly to Germany to see it. Thanks for sharing this, Michael. Elaine


What's this all about?

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29891 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html

Apparently there is a German musical road show for Planet of the Apes.

 

I know there was a Tranny stage play version of it in Sydney , but this looks “legit” (however it looks based on POTA 2001?).

 

I know very little about it.

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 10:58 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: German Touring Stage Play

 

In a message dated 6/24/05 8:55:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, taebokitti@... writes:



Just awesome! Our pota musical has arrived! Makes me want to fly to Germany to see it. Thanks for sharing this, Michael. Elaine



What's this all about?

-- Rory

<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29892 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
.html
.html

Anybody been watching the new Doctor Who?

 

Michael


-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29893 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Home page
.html
.html Love the home page especially little Taylor! Reminds me of the Kubrick figures. A great cheerer upper, unfortunately my father died Thursday morning. Elaine<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29894 From: PofTAfan@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
.html
I am so sorry to read that. My condolensence.
 
Kevin
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29895 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/24/05 9:04:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:


Apparently there is a German musical road show for Planet of the Apes.




I know there was a Tranny stage play version of it in Sydney, but this looks "legit" (however it looks based on POTA 2001?).



I know very little about it.



Michael



If it's based on POTA 2001 -- IT'S CRAP!

Just "alot" of monkey business!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29896 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/24/05 9:05:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:


Anybody been watching the new Doctor Who?




Michael




We haven't got it here in the States yet.

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29897 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
.html Thanks, Elaine<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29898 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/24/2005 7:39:04 P.M. Central Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:
or Taylor and Nova living in the jungle, starting a family etc. Elaine 
 
I don't think there was another jungle beyond the Forbidden Zone.
And the couldn't go back to her's because it wasn't safe.
 
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29899 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/24/2005 7:42:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:
That's what Pierre Boulle wanted to do.  They should have just taken Boulle's PLANET OF THE MEN script and got another writer or two to polish it.
 
Is there a copy of that floating around somewhere?
 
 
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29900 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/24/2005 8:04:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:
Apparently there is a German musical road show for Planet of the Apes.
Any web sites for this?
 
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29901 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
.html

Hi Elaine.

 

Sorry for your loss.

 

At the moment there is a rift between myself and my parents that seems irreparable.  Thinking of their mortality makes me wish there is something that can be done to make us all happy or at least not resentful.

 

I hope you and your dad were on good terms.

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of taebokitti@...
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 11:14 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Home page

 

Love the home page especially little Taylor! Reminds me of the Kubrick figures. A great cheerer upper, unfortunately my father died Thursday morning. Elaine


--
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29902 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html

Just this link I sent before:

 

www.stevenhumes.com/photo_rigoletto.htm

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 12:03 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: German Touring Stage Play

 

In a message dated 6/24/2005 8:04:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Apparently there is a German musical road show for Planet of the Apes.

Any web sites for this?

 


-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29903 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
.html
.html

Wanna see it Rory?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 11:27 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?

 

In a message dated 6/24/05 9:05:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:



Anybody been watching the new Doctor Who?



Michael



We haven't got it here in the States yet.

-- Rory

--
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29904 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Interesting Script
.html
.html

Not sure but here’s an interesting one….

 

www.allmoviescripts.com/scripts/7101167323f4eba92c0e0a.txt


Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 12:01 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?

 

In a message dated 6/24/2005 7:42:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

That's what Pierre Boulle wanted to do.  They should have just taken Boulle's PLANET OF THE MEN script and got another writer or two to polish it.

 

Is there a copy of that floating around somewhere?

 

 

 

 


--
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29905 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html

If you go here you scroll down and click a link to get to these photos.

 

Interesting…..

 

http://www.stevenhumes.com/photos.htm

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Whitty
Sent:
Saturday, 25 June 2005 12:08 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Re: German Touring Stage Play

 

Just this link I sent before:

 

www.stevenhumes.com/photo_rigoletto.htm

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent:
Saturday, 25 June 2005 12:03 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: German Touring Stage Play

 

In a message dated 6/24/2005 8:04:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Apparently there is a German musical road show for Planet of the Apes.

Any web sites for this?


--
-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29906 From: Greg Plonowski Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
PLANET OF THE MEN is in the script archive on Hunter's site.
 
 
Greg

LordTZer0@... wrote:
In a message dated 6/24/2005 7:42:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:
That's what Pierre Boulle wanted to do.  They should have just taken Boulle's PLANET OF THE MEN script and got another writer or two to polish it.
 
Is there a copy of that floating around somewhere?
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29907 From: PhoenixCa7@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
.html
.html
I have never seen Dr. Who. I have been curious. We haven't gotten the new series in the U.S. yet. Would the new series make sense to someone that has not seen any of the previous series? I think I know the basics, but that is it.
 
Jim
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29908 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
.html
.html

It would make sense.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of PhoenixCa7@...
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 12:55 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?

 

I have never seen Dr. Who. I have been curious. We haven't gotten the new series in the U.S. yet. Would the new series make sense to someone that has not seen any of the previous series? I think I know the basics, but that is it.

 

Jim


-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29909 From: PhoenixCa7@aol.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
.html
.html
Thanks, Michael. I will have to give the new series a try. I'm sure it will show up at some point here. BBC America has shown some of the previous series.
 
Jim
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29910 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/24/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
.html
.html
Well my first POTA prop arrived today.
Unfortunately its POTA2K1 but what the
hay.  It's Ari's placemat.  Only $20 bucks.
Not sure what regular placemats go for,
but it was cheaper than the $1200 plus
Rick Baker masks were.  And I needed
a placemat anyway.  So it's well worth it.
 
 
 
 
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29911 From: mlccougar@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/24/2005 8:26:59 PM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

If it's based on POTA 2001 -- IT'S CRAP!

If it'd be based on the real Planet of the Apes, it'd be even worse than that!!! The original POTA should NEVER be bastardized or mocked by being made into some type of stage play bullsh*t...
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29912 From: Jake Le Master Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Interesting Script
.html
Ah yes, the Sam Hamm script.  You have no idea how close that came to being the new POTA.  Maybe it could have been better.  Still bad in my opinion.

Michael Whitty <whitty@...> wrote:

Not sure but hereÂ’s an interesting oneÂ….

 

www.allmoviescripts.com/scripts/7101167323f4eba92c0e0a.txt


Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 12:01 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?

 

In a message dated 6/24/2005 7:42:02 P.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

That's what Pierre Boulle wanted to do.  They should have just taken Boulle's PLANET OF THE MEN script and got another writer or two to polish it.

 

Is there a copy of that floating around somewhere?

 

 

 

 


--


Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29913 From: Jake Le Master Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html

haha, I love the home page.  South Park needs to do a whole episode spoofing POTA.  Has anyone here who watches the show seen the episode where all the kids starting acting like apes everytime they get near this girl who has just developed boobs?  In this one scene, a space shuttle crashes right next to the kids and when the astronauts see the children, they approach them and ask them to call 911.  But the children just make ape-like noises and gestures.  The rest is as followed:

Astronaut #1: "Oh my God, we've landed on earth thousands of years in the future and apes have taken over!!" 

Astonaut #2: Oh you've blown in up didn't you!!

Astronaut #1: I don't want to live in this futuristic madness! (pulls out a gun and shoots himself in the head)

Astronaut #2: Take your ape world and go to hell! (pulls out a gun and shoots himself in the head as well)

-Jake


Yahoo! Sports
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29914 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , LordTZer0@A... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/22/2005 5:00:14 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> whitty@c... writes:
>
> Was it based on a racial comment ie "The only good negro is a dead
> negro"? (that's putting it mildly).
>
>
> I'd say that's a fair bet, since Ursus talks about humans not being
> evil simply because their skin is white -- which I guess compared
> to the apes they were, particularly the gorillas -- though being out
> side all they time they were as tan as field hands. But the
writing
> in Beneath is so heavy handed it makes the original seem subtle.

*** According to Eric Greene (in his book), Ursus' line -- "The only
GOOD human is a DEAD human!" -- "... is adapted from U.S. General
Sheridan's genocidal curse that "the only good Indian is a dead
Indian." (page 63).

Of course, this ISN'T the first time that that phrase had
been 'uttered' -- if, that is, they actually filmed as-scripted the
scene when the Hunt Club tries to commandeer Zira's wagon
in "PLANET". She and Lucius convince them that the humans in their
wagon are rabid (etc), and the gorillas reluctantly let them go on
their way, and the Hunt Leader says: "I still say the only good human
is a dead human." This is in scene 305 of the Serling/Wilson
screenplay, BTW.

I get the impression that Dehn liked that line and -- perhaps working
from the 1st film's script when he wrote the sequel -- decided to
include it in his sequel story. Based on all this, in my POTA
project, I'm gonna have it that the Hunt Leader in this filmed-yet-
edited-out scene actually IS Ursus -- and that this "catch phrase" is
something he tends to say rather often, to whomever may be around to
hear it. The "PLANET" script never named this character -- in scene
305 he's just called "LEADER" and "the leader of the Hunt Club".

Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29915 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:
>
> Wilson, Serling, Kelley and Schaffner weren't involved in BENEATH,
and as can be seen by the results they were sorely missed. Those that
worked on BENEATH were obviously the less talented. Most of the mess
that is BENEATH I blame on Abrahams. I've read memos he wrote about
changes he wanted in PLANET that showed how dangerous he was. Thank
the Lawgiver for Schaffner.

*** The primary reason that Dehn's script -- regardless of Mort's
changes/alterations/additions/whatever -- wasn't able to be as
brilliant as the script for "PLANET" is because Chuck Heston strait-
jacketed the entire project by being willing ONLY to appear in a
glorified cameo. They couldn't make ANY movie without Taylor, and
although casting David Watson as Cornelius was unavoidable, at least
he could "hide" under the make-ups and do a passable job mimicking
("ape-ing") MacDowall... but NOBODY could be re-cast in the role of
Taylor. Heston forced them to write a script around his bare minimal
involvement. Given that enormous hurdle, they still delivered a story
that I, for one, do not consider "juvenile" and crappy or whatever
negative epithet you want to slag it with.

Dehn's story -- as a Vietnam-era parallel -- mandated depicting the
Gorilla War-Machine in preparation for their invasion, and the BEST
way (working within their constraints) was to involve the new
character, Brent, as a witness to this -- and as one who is
threatened by it, since he (and Nova) are to be used as target
practice. Zira, by helping them to escape this fate, was like
somebody who helped draft-dodgers flee conscription into the Army to
fight Vietnamese conscripted soldiers. I wonder how such a plot
device would fly nowadays, in regards to Iraq?

And, finally, MY take on "BENEATH" -- despite my love of "PLANET" --
is an echo of what Maurice Evans said in an interview with
CINEFANTASTIQUE (Summer 1972 issue). He was asked, "In your
estimation, are there any dangers in doing a sequel for the screen?"

He answered: "I know tradition says that there are great dangers in
doing sequels, but I see absolutely no reason for it. After all, a
motion picture lasts, what is it, an hour and a half -- two hours
maximum with no commercials, thank the Lord -- but a long play --
like "Hamlet" or "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" -- runs for four
hours in the theatre, so there is every reason why a story should be
expanded if the author has really got anything to say. And I think in
the case of the sequel to PLANET OF THE APES, the public will find
that the author has a great deal more to say than he had in the first
one. In fact, the sequel to my way of thinking, is infinitely more
profound from a philosophical standpoint. In many ways more
frightening.

Of course, "PLANET" and "BENEATH" did not have the same "author", but
the main idea is still valid: if a story-teller has something to say,
and isn't just cranking out "more adventures with the monkeys", then
it is legitimate to make sequels. Given Dehn's obvious concern
regarding the Nuclear Age he was living in, it's obvious that the
opportunity to write the 1st sequel would appeal to him -- to compel
him to imagine the subterranean society living "beneath" the surface
of the Forbidden Zone, worshipping a Nuke in a satirically
blasphemous manner. Sci-Fi had dealt with telepathic mutants before
(see "The Menagerie", from STAR TREK, the Talosians), but his
innovation was to have them worship the Bomb, using the bomb's shape
as a phallic inverted crucifix ("the Sign of the Bomb" etc).

From a satirical standpoint, I think that decision was
brilliant. "PLANET" was predominantly a Satire, cloaked in SF
trappings. Its first sequel continued the satirical vein, and set the
stage for the more allegorical stories that were to follow.

------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> And as far as I'm concerned there's no reason to think that Taylor
couldn't have ridden 200 miles up the coast before he found the
Statue of Liberty. You say it's impossible that he did because the
movie doesn't plainly show that, but I say that there's an internal
logic, based on my belief that things would still be pretty much
where they presently are, that leaves the possibility open.

*** I say it's impossible because Taylor -- going from the Cave to
where he'd find the Statue, in YOUR interpretation -- would've run
into ATLANTIC CITY, or at least its ruins. There's no indication
whatsoever that Taylor deviated from his plan to "follow the
shoreline" -- and Atlantic City is ON that shoreline! If he had been
in Maryland or Delaware when he said goodbye to Zira, then he MUST
have passed that area. But the FIRST ruin he finds along that beach
is the Statue.

The "feel" of that journey does not imply a journey of many days and
nights on horseback, stopping to set up camp and sleep at least once
en route... it all happens in the SAME DAY. Near enough to the Cave
so that Zaius could hint at what he'd find: "Don't look for it,
Taylor... you may not like what you'll find." He says this KNOWING
that there's something out there that he WILL find, and NOT LIKE when
he sees it.

Zaius knows that Taylor believes he's from "another planet in another
solar system" -- and he ALSO knows that the Statue is out there, and
will disabuse him of his mistaken opinion. The Statue -- as Zaius
tells Zira -- represents Taylor's and Mankind's "destiny". The hope
of liberty... reduced to ruins. By Man's own hand. Zaius isn't
talking about something that's 200 miles away! He KNOWS it's further
down the beach, perhaps a dozen miles away, tops. Far enough away
that Cornelius didn't map it, but near enough that a younger Zaius
could've been taken out there when he was coming-of-age, when his
father passed down to him the "Terrible Secret" that was the burden
of his ancestors. Zaius' line to Zira doesn't make any sense at all
without reference to the final devastating image seen by Taylor and
the film's 1st audience. The Statue of Liberty in RUINS is both the
literal AND the symbolic "destiny" of Mankind IF WE NUKE OUR OWN
CIVILIZATION TO OBLIVION.

Jeezus, Rory, why isn't this OBVIOUS to you?!
---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I suppose that Taylor and Nova could've spent some of the DAYS it
would've taken them to travel that far to stop off at, oh, ATLANTIC
CITY (which is in-between NYC and the part of your Map where the Cave
must be), to do some gambling. Maybe catch a show. I'm sure there's a
Mutant Elvis impersonator still doin' shows at Atlantic City in 3955,
3978, whenever.
>
> Patrick, why don't you ever talk about how STUPID it is in BENEATH
that Brent finds a subway station in what was Queens, NY, which is
EAST of NYC, when everything in PLANET indicates that it takes place
WEST and SOUTH of NYC? And why don't you ever talk about how
RIDICULOUS it seems to be in BENEATH that Brent appears to walk just
a short distance down the subway tracks -- and there's the
underground ruins of NYC!!!!

*** Queens is east of Manhattan, but BOTH are part of NYC, Rory. As
for how Brent "appears" to walk just a short distance -- that's
bogus. The short amount of screen-time they devote to that little
journey represents a much longer period of time, obviously -- it
isn't in "real-time" any more than Taylor's original trek across the
Forbidden Zone was! It WOULD have been ridiculous if Brent had been
having a one-sided conversation with Nova, so that the length of the
conversation would mandate that the journey from Queensboro Plaza to
the New York Public Library takes place in only a few minutes. A
journey that may have taken an hour or so is truncated into a rather
short screen-time, so that the cuts from shot-to-shot only SEEM to
represent a few minutes. Get over it, Rory. It wasn't done in one
uninterrupted shot -- it was done with CUTS. The "missing time"
between each cut represents an hour's worth (probably) of monotonous
walking through a dark tunnel.

As for the horse-ride from where Brent escapes the Target Range wagon
to the Queensboro cave, we have NO indication whatsoever WHAT
DIRECTION that wagon had been travelling, after it left Ape City. We
don't know HOW LONG that gorilla rode out on that road before Brent
snuck outta the wagon's cage and began to fight him. We don't know
HOW FAR they'd gotten from Ape City by that point, or how much
farther they were able to go galloping on horseback before the
gorilla border-guards saw 'em and started pursuing 'em.

Again, what takes a few minutes of screen-time -- with shots cutting
to other shots, etc -- represents MORE time, and MORE distance
travelled, in directions NOBODY knows for certain, since there's no
dialogue indicating "northward"/"south-westward"/etc movement. The
gorilla never takes out a Map of the area with the Target Range
represented by an "X" on it. All these ambiguities leave it open to
interpretation, which is all I'm doing in my own project.
----------------------------------------------------------------

> > And there ARE NO MOUNTAINS on either side of Chesapeake Bay! Even
your topological map shows that! But Cornelius' Map DOES show
mountainous areas surrounding Dead Lake -- they're the BROWN-colored
areas, one of which Zira says represents the "mountains" Taylor
trekked across from the Lake before he "reached the jungle".
>
> But Patrick, aren't I allowed the possibility of phenomenal
topographic changes that your precious scenario also enjoys?

*** Yeah, Rory, you ARE. But why not be consistent? At one point
you're declaring your "belief" that things stay basically the way
they are now, just with a lower sea level, etc. Has MUCH changed?
According to your earlier post, "Not f***ing much!" Well, what IS it?
In MY scenario, "phenomenal topographic changes" do occur (and not
only some nuclear blastwaves), but you've indicated up until now that
not much else has happened topographically speaking. You ARE allowed
the possibility... but you've belittled my hypotheticals in this
matter, and claimed that your "Chesapeake Bay" interpretation fits
all the facts in a nicely wrapped package.

Well, we disagree about this. The conspicuous absence of Norfolk on
your Map-pic calls it into question -- and that's just the tip of the
iceberg. It should be in the Nuked zone, but you'd have it on
the "left" side of the Map. I've BEEN to Norfolk, Rory, and there's
no way that that place could exist in the territory where Apes are
ALLOWED to travel -- there'd be some remnants of it visible, or at
least easily accessible to an archaologist like Cornelius. He
wouldn't have needed to "exceed his orders" regarding his Travel
Permit -- he wouldn't have needed to go into the Forbidden Zone to
find artifacts from our time. They'd be in the "allowed" area
already. I'm sorry, Rory, but it just doesn't fit, no matter how
significant you think Chesapeake Bay appears in relation to Dead Lake.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Patrick, what you've failed to consider that what you call
mountains on Cornelius' map may in actuality be the buttes that we
see in the film, and in fact that's what I think they are -- and I
also believe that the buttes are made up not just of rock from the
earth, but the rubble of the megalopolis that was once there and that
stretched from Washington, DC to Boston, Mass.
>
> I've never thought that the so-called "mountains areas" of
Cornelius' map (the dark brown areas) represented anything other than
the hill-sized buttes of the Forbidden Zone -- and neither should
you, Patrick! This just shows how you constantly misinterpret things!

*** It isn't MY interpretation, it's ZIRA'S interpretation. When
Taylor does his "hand-jive" across Cornelius' Map, it is ZIRA'S voice
which vocally interprets the remembered trek across the Forbidden
Zone. HER WORDS include "mountains... many days and nights..." and
Taylor gives every impression -- non-vocally -- that her verbal
depiction MATCHES what he'd been trying to get across with pantomime.
It is only when Cornelius says "Out of the question" that Taylor
indicates his frustration.

Why did Zira say "mountains" in the first place? She hasn't been to
the Zone... but Cornelius HAS been there. He's been to Dead Lake, too
("... the terrain around that lake is poisonous" he tells Taylor
later on). Zira says "mountains" BECAUSE CORNELIUS, WHO HAD BEEN
THERE, DESCRIBED IT AS A 'MOUNTAINOUS' REGION. And that's why he
colored it BROWN on his map, as opposed to the GREEN "jungle" areas
and the tan "lowland" areas. The cliff overlooking the ocean -- where
the Cave is at -- is represented by just such a BROWN-colored area,
between the Lake and the Sea, on the "right" side of the river as it
flows into that sea.

The brown-colored areas are mountainous -- but NOT in the same way
that the Rocky Mountains are. They are HIGHER above sea-level than
the other colored areas. The mountainous area drops abruptly off into
the sea as a nearly sheer cliff. The surrounding lowland along the
river valley is not navigable to a certain degree because of the
TIDES that flood it. Look at the color of the terrain through which
the river(s) run, and that gives you a sense of the topology of
Cornelius' Map. The Brown areas are HIGHER ground than the rest.
Remember when the big boulder rolls down that hill? When the
astronauts descend that steep area and collapse at the bottom, and
Taylor pats one of 'em on the calf? All that area is at a higher
elevation than the river valley area and the jungle/green areas.
Not "mountains" like Everest, the Himalayas, the Andes, etc. But high
up enough for Apes living in lowland jungles to differentiate from
their own terrain with the word.
--------------------------------------------------------------
>

> >
> > You get ahold of that and hang onto it, or you might as well drop
dead!
> >
> > Patrick
> >

> Someday I will! And so will you! And you know what, Patrick? In the
fullness of time the sequels will become ever sillier and sillier
looking, but the original will always be regarded as a classic!

*** "PLANET" will always be (rightfully) recognized as the most
original of the 5 movies and the best of 'em. But responsible
critics -- those who take into account all the factors at play in the
making of the films (including the budgetary limitations, Heston's
minimal participation, etc) will cut 'em slack regarding
circumstances out of their control and praise what they were able to
accomplish despite those drawbacks. All the APES films have flaws,
Rory, even "PLANET" -- as the critics have pointed out, if you may
recall. The "See-No-Evil" scene, in particular. Some of the humor was
decried by some critics ("Human See, Human Do", etc).

And why should any of us care about a critic's opinion anyway???
Opinions are like a**holes -- everybody's got one! The AP critic
whose opinion of "BATMAN BEGINS" was published in the local newspaper
is worthless -- she gave it 2 stars (out of either 4 or 5,
presumably), and said it "takes itself too seriously"! Everything
that made it a GREAT film -- or, a great BATMAN film, anyway -- she
couldn't appreciate. She's the kind of critic who ONLY likes Tom
Hanks/Meg Ryan romantic comedies -- she shouldn't have a job
reviewing genre movies that appeal to other people. She has a bias, a
predisposition to dislike ANY action/comic-based dramatic film.

Critics are "great" when you agree with 'em, and horses' asses when
their opinions go against your own. When Siskel & Ebert agreed with
each other, they were all pals and buddies... but when they
vehemently disagreed, they took the gloves off and had a pissing
contest. Whose opinion was right? "To each their own". I'd rather see
it for myself and evaluate it on MY own terms -- I trust my own
judgment more than a mere professional 'critic'. Hell, the critics
hated "ZARDOZ" (so did most of my friends!), but I loved it and STILL
love it. And I can write VOLUMES as to why it's a great film, to back
up my opinion... but opinions don't really matter. One man's trash is
another man's treasure. And vice versa.

Don't tell me you've ever been displeased with yourself because you
liked a movie that some cherished critic insisted you should NOT have
liked! I just don't see you, Rory, facing such a crisis of
conscience! "Pauline Kael hated it... so why did I think it was
wonderful? There must be something WRONG with me!"

Patrick

-----------------------------------------------------------
P.S. Rory, after having seen ALL the prequels to "STAR WARS", and
seeing how much money Lucas had to throw at 'em, to "realize his
vision" and all that... how do the APES sequels rate, in comparison,
story-wise?

Personally, I'd give "STAR WARS" 5 stars -- it was a stupendous film
in all regards, its virtues so outweighing whatever niggling
criticisms cinema-snobs may have made, that it spawned a dynamic
shift in HOW movies afterwards would get made. It sparked a
revolution, for better or worse.

But... "THE PHANTOM MENACE" rates a mere 1/2 star AT BEST. It was
utter CRAP. The original 9 million budget of "STAR WARS" wouldn't
have paid the salary of Lucas' official dingleberry-picker, its
budget was so extravagant... but all for a LESS THAN NOTHING of a
movie.

"ATTACK OF THE CLONES" rates, oh, about 2 stars or so. Better
than "Episode 1" but still nowhere NEAR as good as the Original.

"REVENGE OF THE SITH" was an improvement, granted. I'd give it, oh,
about 3 stars. And that's being generous, because I can't help but
compare it favorably to "Episode 1" and "2". The final confrontation
between Kenobi and Anakin was sufficiently 'dark' and nasty to erase
the taint of Jar Jar Binks! At least until the next time I see
Episode 1 again (and that won't be any time soon).

But with all that extra money to throw at these projects, Lucas
hasn't done anything that really made a DIFFERENCE. He played "fill
in the blanks", to set up the first Original "STAR WARS" movie. Quite
frankly, I'd have been happier if he had called "STAR WARS" Episode
1, "EMPIRE" Episode 2, etc., and NOT pretended that the meager back-
story dialogue of Ben Kenobi (the "Clone Wars" line, etc) actually
represented feature-length "episodes" in some grand scheme he'd
plotted out back in the early 70's. I could EASILY live without any
of these 3 prequels. They don't "matter" in the way that the sequels
to "PLANET OF THE APES" matter. I know that YOU, Rory, could easily
live in a "PLANET"-only world, but I grew up with ALL the APES
movies, and never saw 'em as anything but a series of linked stories
in a saga. When I was old enough to learn about all the politics and
behind-the-scenes dramas that were involved in the making of the APES
sequels, it was all water-under-the-bridge. The "Story" they'd
already told by the time I became aware of it, was "PLANET"... AND
the next one, "BENEATH"... AND the next one, "ESCAPE", etc etc.

Give me a lower-budgeted SMART sequel to a great film than a HUGE-
budgeted overblown bit of hackwork by a director who's been shooting
blanks ever since "HOWARD THE DUCK" (at least). A little Levitra has
given Lucas a slightly better prequel with Episode 3, but nobody will
ever put it in the same class as what has come to be called Episode
4. And by that, I mean "STAR WARS" -- the "Han-shot-first" version,
goddammiiiiiiiit!

May the Schwartz be with you... ;)
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29916 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
That's pretty wild. I wonder how the response has been for this show.
It seems like an interesting concept. Plays have been getting more
involved with theatrics to try and maintain an audience here in the
States. "The Little Shop of Horrors" is now playing a theater here in
New Orleans complete with a giant singing mechnical plant puppet.



--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> From a member who wishes to remain anonymous...
>
> www.stevenhumes.com/photo_rigoletto.htm
>
> Thanks!
>
> Michael
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29917 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Dr Zaius - Dr WHO?
.html
I didn't know there was a new Dr. Who. I loved the Tom Baker (I
believe that was his name) series. When I was a kid this was another
show me and my Dad would bond watching while driving my Mother crazy.
Just like the Planet of the Apes T.V. show. Good Memories.




--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Anybody been watching the new Doctor Who?
>
> Michael
>
> --
Group: potadg Message: 29918 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 10:00:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


Based on all this, in my POTA
project, I'm gonna have it that the Hunt Leader in this filmed-yet-
edited-out scene actually IS Ursus


Yeah, that's right, Patrick, just keep re-writing PLANET until you bring it completely down to the level of BENEATH!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29919 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
I am so sorry to hear that. I hope everything will work out alright
for you. Remember that you have friends here, too and if we can help
in any way just let us know.



--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, taebokitti@a... wrote:
> Love the home page especially little Taylor! Reminds me of the
Kubrick
> figures. A great cheerer upper, unfortunately my father died
Thursday morning. Elaine
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29920 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 12:25:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


they still delivered a story
that I, for one, do not consider "juvenile" and crappy or whatever
negative epithet you want to slag it with.


Which just goes to shown how in some ways you're still a little boy, Patrick! 

Patrick Peter-Pan, that's you!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29921 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
It appears to be tribes of talking apes in this play but not directly
a Planet of the Apes story.



--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Just this link I sent before:
>
> www.stevenhumes.com/photo_rigoletto.htm
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of LordTZer0@A...
> Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 12:03 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: German Touring Stage Play
>
> In a message dated 6/24/2005 8:04:49 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> whitty@c... writes:
> Apparently there is a German musical road show for Planet of the
Apes.
> Any web sites for this?
>
>
> --
Group: potadg Message: 29922 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 12:25:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


As
for how Brent "appears" to walk just a short distance -- that's
bogus. The short amount of screen-time they devote to that little
journey represents a much longer period of time, obviously -- it
isn't in "real-time" any more than Taylor's original trek across the
Forbidden Zone was! It WOULD have been ridiculous if Brent had been
having a one-sided conversation with Nova, so that the length of the
conversation would mandate that the journey from Queensboro Plaza to
the New York Public Library takes place in only a few minutes. A
journey that may have taken an hour or so is truncated into a rather
short screen-time, so that the cuts from shot-to-shot only SEEM to
represent a few minutes. Get over it, Rory.


EXCUSE ME?!!!!!

Isn't this EXACTLY what I'm saying about the end of PLANET, which you can't except?

You're a hypocrite, Patrick!

PLANET is a film entirely of cuts, there's not one lap dissolve it, therefore it completely ambiguous how much time elapses between scenes and therefore it's open to interpretation.  You just don't like my interpretation, Patrick, because it doesn't take the mess that is BENEATH into account, and instead does what is the PROPER thing to do -- and that is... TO IGNORE THE INCONSISTENCIES OF THE SEQUELS.

Each film has its own internal logic -- or lack thereof -- and they simply don't make a smooth saga any more than the old Universal Frankenstein did.

YOU GET OVER IT, LITTLE BOY!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29923 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 12:25:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


And why should any of us care about a critic's opinion anyway???
Opinions are like a**holes -- everybody's got one!


Yeah, and given the amount of opinions you have -- and crazy ones  at that, like Roswell Aliens starting the whole POTA thing -- just goes to show -- YOU SHOULD KNOW!!!!
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29924 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
I agree. A Planet of the Apes stage play would be horrible but this
seems to be an original story that has tribes of talking (and I assume
singing) apes. It says that there are only 2 human characters and one
of them is a woman who falls in love with the ape King of one of the
tribes. I would actually like to see this. It doesn't seem like an
embarissing "Planet of the Apes" disaster but just loosely influenced
by the concept. The Simpson's have done the only true "Planet of the
Apes" musical that I could ever find the humor in or really enjoy.



-- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/24/2005 8:26:59 PM Central Standard Time,
> Haristas@a... writes:
>
> > If it's based on POTA 2001 -- IT'S CRAP!
>
> If it'd be based on the real Planet of the Apes, it'd be even worse
than
> that!!! The original POTA should NEVER be bastardized or mocked by
being made into
> some type of stage play bullsh*t...
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29925 From: mlccougar@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/2005 9:00:02 AM Central Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

I get the impression that Dehn liked that line and -- perhaps working
from the 1st film's script when he wrote the sequel -- decided to
include it in his sequel story.


I highly doubt he looked at ANY of the PLANET scripts... If he did, he would have avoided all of his mistakes...





Based on all this, in my POTA project, I'm gonna have it that the Hunt Leader in this filmed-yet-edited-out scene actually IS Ursus -- and that this "catch phrase" is
something he tends to say rather often, to whomever may be around to hear it. The "PLANET" script never named this character -- in scene 305 he's just called "LEADER" and "the leader of the Hunt Club".


I thought the only things included in your "scenario" are what actually made it to the screen, and that the out-takes, etc. weren't a part of that? (That your idea of "canon" is only what we see in the films and the 14 episodes...)

Anyway, the Leader of the Hunt club is his own ape and it can't be Ursus... They show the Hunt Leader in PLANET, and it's obvious he isn't the same ape who is the leader of the apes army...
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29926 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/22/05 2:17:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > After BOTH those ships had gone down along that same flightpath
("Taylor's trajectory"), the 3rd ship's crew radio'd up that
telemetry to their orbiting Command ship, and at some point -- WEEKS
later -- the Command ship transmitted that same telemetric
information over to Skipper/Brent's ship while they were still
hibernating away, to conserve on air & food, so that they could later
make use of it when THEY did their re-entry burn, to land near
Taylor's spot.
>
>
> Has it ever occurred to as odd, Patrick, that the astronauts in
PLANET make no mention of there being another ship? How does your
brilliant scenario deal with that paradox?
>
> Patrick, you make me so tired.
---------------------------------------------------------------
*** Well, it's all part of my overall Scenario, and you did ASK, so
here goes again...

1. Taylor's mission is out to an unnamed planet orbiting a star 320
lightyears away in Orion.

2. After seeing the EARTH-TIME clock read "11-25-3978" Taylor assumes
that they made it to their destination. He doesn't have a CLUE that
they somehow wound up back on Earth. He thinks the planet Earth is
320 lightyears away -- "another planet in another solar system".

3. He told whomever "are reading me now" (when the EARTH-TIME clock
reads March 2673) that he was completing his Final Report UNTIL WE
REACH TOUCHDOWN. He wasn't talking about a football game -- he was
saying that WHEN they reached their destination and actually landed
on the planet they were supposed to reach, he would THEN make ANOTHER
REPORT, probably a "Mission Status" report of some kind. In other
words, he would beam a radio signal from Destination to the planet
Earth, to let the descendants of those who had sent him on the
journey know what's going on.

4. When they woke up -- already on the planet's surface, after
landing in the water despite being programmed NOT to do so -- Taylor
orders Landon, after the PRIMARY power fritzes out, to "Get out a
last signal!" -- "What signal?" -- "To EARTH, that we've landed!"

They don't have the luxury of transmitting a Mission Status report at
their leisure. The ship is SINKING. The AUXILIARY power is about to
be fritzed out (which is why he orders Dodge to "blow the hatch,
before we lose Auxiliary Power!"). Taylor TRIED to "read the tapes"
in those few desperate moments, but TIME was running out and the
power cut out so that they had no choice but to "Abandon ship!"

If they had only made "PLANET", then Taylor's line to Landon would
make the MOST sense to mean, "Landon, get out a Last Signal... to the
PLANET EARTH, that we've landed!"

However, Taylor doesn't have the luxury of knowing that it would even
work. A radio signal, sent from a spaceship on the surface of a
planet and beamed out across 320 lightyears of space, in order for it
to reach Earth it would HAVE to be on the "clear" side of the planet
to begin with. For all Taylor knows, the Sol System is currently in
that part of the sky over the OTHER side of the planet. Any radio
signal would have -- at best -- a 50% chance of getting to Earth...
320 years later.

If he WERE where he anticipated being -- on that alien planet in the
year 3978 -- then he would have to assume that Earthlings back on
planet Earth wouldn't receive his transmission (if at all) until the
year 4298. It would take 320 years for the radio transmission to
travel all the way back to the Sol System.

I've chosen to re-interpret Taylor's line (as well as dialogue
from "BENEATH" between Skipper and Brent) so that the word "EARTH" is
in reference NOT to the planet they came from, but to the Command
Ship (the "Mothership") that he thinks MIGHT be in orbit and within
RADIO-TRANSMISSION/RECEPTION RANGE.

It would be like if the shuttlecraft GALILEO were to crash into a
lake, and Spock were to tell Scotty: "Mister Scott, get out a last
signal... to ENTERPRISE, that we've landed."

Thus, the word "EARTH" would denote (in this line of dialogue) the
name of the Mission's Command ship. It would be a "Spaceship Earth".

I know that there are those who find THIS particular bit of re-
interpretation to be hard to take. Past messages in the old Yahoo
group from my vehement detractors gave me plenty of guff about it,
and they don't have to accept it or like it, it don't bother me. But
I think it makes MORE sense than what was intended by the script-
writers in the first place.

First off, Taylor KNOWS that the PRIMARY power is lost. They're
restricted to a rapidly depleting AUXILIARY power supply. They're
sinking, and when he orders Landon to "get out a last signal" they
are TRAPPED inside this sinking ship.

What if they run out of AUXILIARY/secondary power BEFORE Dodge has a
chance to "blow the hatch"? Dodge is testing the outside air, and
they can only HOPE that it's breathable. But even if it IS, they
won't have a CHANCE to breathe it if the hatch's blast-mechanism
doesn't have the power to activate. If that hatch doesn't get blown
off, they'll die when the ship goes down. They'll drown to death, all
because the auxiliary power ran out.

So, why WASTE any precious auxiliary power by having some of it
shunted to the RADIO COMMUNICATIONS gear? Electrical power, at that
point, is as precious to them as the 8 ounces of water left in that
canteen some days later.

Lucky for them that Dodge "reads the atmosphere" in good time,
informs them that it's "okay" and has time to press that button to
make the hatch explode off. A mere FEW SECONDS later, the auxiliary
power is gone.

I don't think it makes as much sense for Taylor to be giving Landon a
task that really doesn't matter much -- sending a radio signal out
which won't reach Earth until 320 years have gone by, if at all --
when electrical power is so critical to their very survival.

I think it makes MUCH more sense that Taylor -- in his whirlwind
state-of-mine, trying to make sense of the fact that they've landed
in such a way that they weren't programmed to ('in the water') --
perhaps guesses that the Command ship that their shuttle HAD BEEN
attached to had suffered some sort of snafu requiring the emergency
disconnection of its shuttles -- both the one seen in "PLANET" and
the one eventually seen in "BENEATH". Thus, while HE and his
shuttle's crew are on the surface of the planet, their Command Ship
just MIGHT still be up in space, in orbit, within radio range. And IF
it is, then some of the other ANSA astronauts in the larger crew
Taylor commanded might be "up there".

Why not send up a radio message to fellow astronauts who MAY be up
there waiting to hear from them?

I've just thought of something. When Landon goes about his task of
getting out that 'last signal', he doesn't SAY anything. He just
starts pressing buttons, and so forth. We never hear him say
something like, "This is Lieutenant Landon, of the starship ICARUS,
calling Earth... We have reached our destination, and are sending out
this confirmation... We've landed in a body of water and are sinking,
I repeat: Sinking..." etc etc.

Why doesn't Landon say ANYTHING, I wonder? Unless the "signal" he's
supposed to get out can be delivered by the mere press of a button,
as if it's pre-programmed.

What if... he doesn't say anything because he's trying to "tune in"
the radio frequency of the "U.S.S. EARTH" -- the Command ship he also
thinks may be up in space? Imagine trying to tune in an AM radio
station, amidst all the hiss and static. Perhaps he is waiting to
hear a CLEAR and undeniable radio link-up radio signal -- perhaps
some sort of periodic "ping" or tone, or even the voice of somebody
on the other end of that radio transceiver.

"--calling Shuttle One: Taylor... do you read me? Over. This is
U.S.S. EARTH calling Shuttle One: Taylor... do you read me? Over.
This is U.S.S. EARTH calling--"

Perhaps Landon's waiting to hear something like THAT from the radio,
so that he can then send out a REPLY after the next time the
word "Over" is spoken. But the power runs out before he can get into
radio CONTACT with that orbiting ship.

With no means of getting into radio contact with ANY orbiting ship,
there's no way they know of for their fellow ANSA astronauts who MAY
be up there to know where they are, to send down any other ship to
pick 'em up.

"We're here to stay," Taylor says, after the ship sinks below the
surface of the lake. If an orbiting ship is "up there" looking down,
it won't see any traces of the shuttle. They evidently don't have any
portable radio units in their backpacks, since Taylor's inventory of
them doesn't mention it.

Perhaps Taylor DID mention their Command ship when he told Landon (in
my re-interpretation of this dialogue) to "get out a last signal...
to [the maybe-orbiting U.S.S.] Earth, that we've landed!"

Taking into account the scene in "BENEATH" when Skipper asks
Brent "Did you contact Earth?" helps to bolster this re-
interpretation.

Brent and Skipper have every reason to believe that they are on an
ALIEN PLANET, lightyears away from Earth. Neither one of 'em knows
that the sun shining down on them is Sol, the Earth's sun. Skipper
laments, "If only I could see the sun!" and Brent says, "You can feel
it" (Skipper's blind, but his skin feels the heat).

"Yes, but... which sun?"

HE DOESN'T KNOW. He must, then, think that it is some star OTHER THAN
THE ONE OUR PLANET EARTH ORBITS.

It is ONE thing to send out a "signal" to a planet that is LIGHTYEARS
away -- which is what is implied in "PLANET" that Landon was ordered
to attempt. But it is another thing entirely to be able to "CONTACT"
a planet that is believed to be lightyears away.

Unless they have a STAR TREK-like "subspace radio", there is NO way
they can get into radio contact with a planet orbiting around another
star. Hell, you can't even get into contact with a planet in the same
star system -- not in a "real-time" conversation, anyway. If Venus
were habitable, and Earth was at its closest approach to it, they'd
be separated by a distance of 0.3 astronomical units, which is about
2.5 light-minutes. If Brent said, "Hello?" into a radio while on
Venus -- the planet CLOSEST to Earth -- then the EARLIEST he could
hope to receive a reply would be 5 minutes later, even assuming that
Venus were habitable (it isn't) and at its closest approach, rather
than at some other location in its orbit relative to Earth's location.

The only way for Skipper's line to make sense is if by "Earth" he
does NOT mean the planet Earth... but something ELSE named "Earth"
that IS (perhaps) within radio-transception range, and is also
lightyears away from the star which people on planet Earth call
the "Sun". Skipper and Brent erroneously believe that they've landed
on a planet -- a world with a BREATHABLE ATMOSPHERE (which rules out
any other planet in the Sol System) -- which is NOT the planet Earth,
but a world orbiting some OTHER star.

As Brent says, "I don't know what planet we're on..." etc. He doesn't
know they're on the planet Earth. Believing he's on an ALIEN planet
with a breathable atmosphere, lightyears from Sol and Earth, he has
recently been attempting to CONTACT "EARTH".

He CAN'T have been attempting to contact the planet Earth without a
subspace radio, and I don't see these ANSA ships being equipped with
such a device. These ANSA ships may be able to traverse 320
lightyears of space, but they cannot get into "real-time" radio
contact with places lightyears away.

I submit that the best interpretation of Skipper & Brent's dialogue
is NOT what Dehn originally intended it to mean (which puts it at
odds with the scenario established in "PLANET"), but instead has it
that there is something called "EARTH" other than the planet these
ANSA ships came from. Something named "EARTH" that is "up there" when
Brent -- shocked at hearing Ursus, an ape, talking and rabble-rousing
against Humans -- says to himself: "I gotta get back... UP THERE... I
don't know HOW or WHAT WITH... but I'm not staying here..."

In other words, he needs to get back to the Orion Mission's main
ship, the Command ship, named "U.S.S. EARTH"... but he doesn't know
HOW he's gonna do that, since the ship he piloted down to the surface
crashed and its computer has since become "shot".

His only hope is to acquire either a working RADIO -- so that he can
contact that orbiting U.S.S. EARTH and have them send down another
shuttle to the vicinity of his radio transmission, to pick him up --
or to use a working radio to contact one of the other ANSA shuttles
that may have also landed on the planet's surface, so that he can go
to it and hitch a ride off the planet of the talking monkeys.

He never mentions being the ONLY one sent to find Taylor. He does say
that he's alone, his Skipper being dead. He doesn't know one way or
another if any other ANSA ship might be around -- either docked to
the orbiting mothership U.S.S. EARTH or perhaps also having landed on
the surface. Either way, if he can somehow find a WORKING RADIO, he
just MIGHT be able to avoid getting killed by the Apes and get his
ass off this crazy 'alien' planet.

He needs to get back "up there"... NOT just into Space, which
wouldn't do him much good if there was nowhere to go. At least on the
planet there's breathable air... water... nearly naked chicks in
tattered bikinis... He needs to get back "up there" because there's
something THERE to go TO.

They had a gun in one of Taylor's crew's backpacks, with 20 rounds of
ammo, if I recall. Chances are, any supplies up in the orbiting ship,
all part of the "cargo" Taylor implies was available above and beyond
their most precious cargo, Lieutenant Stewart, would include GUNS and
AMMUNITION. If the Orion Mission were entirely one of peace, then why
did the landing party backpacks include a weapon? Is it "standard
issue" for ANSA astronauts? If they were to come across Creatures
who -- by Taylor's standards -- were "better than Man", what would
They think of these Earthlings, bringing a HANDGUN along with 'em on
their interstellar journey?

One last thing. When Taylor first sees Brent, he says, "You're...
BRENT! How in HELL did you GET here?!"

Brent ain't wearing his ANSA uniform, and it takes him a second or
two to recognize him... but he does. Taylor, in my re-interpretation,
doesn't know how it was possible for Brent to be there, because when
his own ship sank into Dead Lake, LANDON HADN'T HAD ANY SUCCESS WHEN
ATTEMPTING TO GET OUT THAT LAST SIGNAL TO "EARTH". The secondary
power had fritzed out, the attempt failed. There was no signal sent
out for ANY other ship to receive. So, how could Brent have gotten to
him?

Brent knows -- as he tells Skipper -- that they had been following
Taylor's trajectory; in my interpretation, an ORBIT-TO-LANDING RE-
ENTRY TRAJECTORY. Brent knew that Taylor's ship had landed somewhere
near his landing site. Taylor hasn't figured out yet HOW Brent
could've known where that was, just as he hasn't figured out yet how
it is that his own ship managed to land "in the water" despite the
fact that it wasn't programmed to do that very thing.

Taylor hasn't figured out that somebody on one of the other ANSA
shuttles had REMOTELY-PILOTED his ship down to its water landing, by-
passing the programming so that the ship was no longer "on full
automatic in the hands of the computers". And those SAME people who
managed to land Taylor's ship while he and his crew were still under
the effects of the hibernation drugs also, then, transmitted that re-
entry flightpath trajectory telemetry into BRENT'S ship's computer,
so that Brent could then follow that path down to the same area.

There was so much for Taylor to ask Brent, and for Brent to tell
Taylor... but that creepy Negro mutant was there, and before they
know it, his eyes are closed and they're mind-controlled into trying
to slaughter each other.

Any other such conversations as to the Hows and Whys and What the
Hell Happened, evidently, happen OFF SCREEN.

And, that's enough for now. Damn, I do tend to post long messages,
don't I? I make Rory tired, and T's probably fast asleep by now...

Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29927 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Beneath: who's fault was it?
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/22/05 11:50:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> PofTAfan@a... writes:
>
>
> > If you really want to blame someone for the fiasco that was
Beneath you should blame the executives at Fox studios who cut the
budget from 10 million to 3.5 million dollars. The studios rushed
Beneath to the screen, not for the fans but to make money. I'm not
blaming Abrahams and Dehn for Beneath, but I will blame Fox for this.
> >
> >
>
> I think the original budget was only around $4.5 M and was cut to
3.5 M. You have to remember that the studio was in tough financial
straights back then, the big budget musical mistakes were killing
them.
>
> Anyway, I found this in POTA REVISITED about BENEATH:
>
> "Next to the fifth film in the series, Battle for the Planet of the
Apes, Beneath is generally considered the weakest link.
Surprisingly, Ted Post is well aware of the film's shortcomings and
did everything in his power to allow it to match the power of the
original, but was seemingly thwarted at every turn.
>
> 'I was very unhappy with the script,' says Post, 'and I thought the
script was far from what it should have been. And the input of one
particular individual -- Mort Abrahams -- was so cliche and so
hackneyed and so absolutely impossible to change or rectify or even
in some way improve because of his power and his highly articulate
way of getting his power across, that I think he screwed it.'"
>
> So, there you go, fellow POTA fans. Believe me, I don't like it,
and I was disappointed with BENEATH the very first time I saw it, and
I've been wishing it were so much better for over thirty years now,
but even its directed says the movie was "screwed," as in "screwed
up."
>
> What do you say to that, Patrick?
>
> -- Rory
------------------------------------------------------------------

*** I say that the word "screwed" does NOT mean "screwed up", as in
it's just a worthless mess. The production was "screwed" out of a
decent budget [Two Million Dollars cut from a 5.5 Million Dollar
original budget--that's more than a THIRD], "screwed" out of time to
film scenes with Chuck Heston, etc. In his interview in "APESFAN" #2,
he says that he was supposed to have 12 days with Heston... who cut
it down to 8 days... then to 7 days... etc. What the f*** is a
director supposed to do, in the face of that kind of dilemma? He did
the best he could, as a professional, and got the most out of his
fellow filmmakers that he could. He accepted script changes that
James Franciscus personally made, because they helped make the final
film a better movie. He approved of at least one change/decision Mort
Abrahams did -- the editing of the Mutant Church service scene --
saying, "Leave it that way, it works very nicely."

Ted Post was called in to replace Don Medford, who bowed out of the
job, due to its early-stages problems. It's a tribute to Post that he
was able to help steer "BENEATH" -- with all of its unresolved
problems -- in such a way as to get a movie made that, it turns out,
DOES tell a coherent story in a compelling way.

"PLANET" became a sort of "mystery" movie... with the final shot
revealing the Big Secret. In "BENEATH", after the initial set-up,
we're presented with a Mystery during the flashbacks Nova has when
Brent questions her: What Happened to Taylor? The resolution of that
mystery is the motivating force not only for Brent (who's trying to
find Taylor) but for the audience that is wondering 'What's up with
that Wall-of-Fire... that Earthquake... the weird way Taylor
disappears into cliff, which itself disappears... What the hell is
going ON in that goofy desert?'

Aside from Ursus' mention of the 12th Scout's experiences, we don't
discover any hint of the truth about that earlier-established mystery
until Brent is interrogated by the Mutants.

And that scene ALWAYS had me riveted to the TV when I was a kid,
catching "BENEATH" on the CBS late show every so often, on those rare
occasions pre-VCR when I had the opportunity to watch it.

Like any self-conscious artist, Ted Post is perhaps overly critical
of himself, of the artistic worth of a project that has his name
attached to it. If he'd been given another year to work on it, and a
full budget, and the undivided attention of Heston working (and
willing to work) on it for a decent shooting schedule, Ted would
undoubtedly have felt more confident as to its virtues. He was rushed
to do it, and anybody who's ever felt rushed to work on a project
feels that they COULD have done much better if only... if only...

When "APESFAN" told him, "BENEATH THE PLANET OF THE APES has always
been one of my favorite films of all time..." he responded:

"Wow! To have somebody like you guys, with the ability to see a value
that I don't think any of us were thinking about at the time..."

Sometimes, Rory, people who criticize themselves are the worst
critics of all! They, wanting to be known as the Best in the Biz,
want the work they do to Shine. The production circumstances
of "BENEATH" were all stacked against him, and he did the best job he
could do, and undoubtedly felt it could've been so much better... yet
despite his own misgivings, there are still some POTA fans who really
dig "BENEATH". Some prefer it to the 1st film, believe it or not. I
consider it a worthy sequel to "PLANET" and my own opinion matters
more to me than Ted Post's! He made a better film than he thought he
made. Not perfect by any means, not by a long shot. But given the
same conditions, could George Lucas have done anything anywhere near
as good? Increase its budget tenfold, and Lucas would've made it ten
times WORSE. And that goes for a host of other directors. I admire
the hard work Ted Post did to make "BENEATH" better than it would've
ended up being. It was good enough to make enough money -- and please
enough movie-going fans -- to warrant making another sequel, EVEN
after they'd already BLOWN UP THE PLANET EARTH!

That is a 'kudos' that ANY director should be proud to receive.

Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29928 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Interesting Script
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/25/2005 8:18:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, neptunewanter@... writes:
Ah yes, the Sam Hamm script.  You have no idea how close that came to being the new POTA.  Maybe it could have been better.  Still bad in my opinion.
 
Better than what they made.
 
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29929 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/25/2005 11:39:49 A.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:
Based on all this, in my POTA
project, I'm gonna have it that the Hunt Leader in this filmed-yet-
edited-out scene actually IS Ursus
 
Wait, let me get this straight.
You rewriting POTA so there's
a filmed, yet edited out, scene?
What purpose does that serve?
You're completely insane!
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29930 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/25/2005 9:00:02 AM Central Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> > I get the impression that Dehn liked that line and -- perhaps
working from the 1st film's script when he wrote the sequel --
decided to include it in his sequel story.
>
> I highly doubt he looked at ANY of the PLANET scripts... If he did,
he would have avoided all of his mistakes...

*** I think it's more improbable that Dehn wrote Ursus' line ("The
only good human is a dead human") without having been aware of the
earlier use of that line in the "PLANET" script. Besides, the script
and the final cut of "PLANET" do differ in all sorts of notable ways,
if you compare the two. All Dehn had to do was read the script ONCE
and remember that line, dig it, and decide to use it in HIS script. I
don't KNOW that that's what happened, but it seems more probable to
me that that IS how it happened.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > Based on all this, in my POTA project, I'm gonna have it that the
Hunt Leader in this filmed-yet-edited-out scene actually IS Ursus --
and that this "catch phrase" is something he tends to say rather
often, to whomever may be around to hear it. The "PLANET" script
never named this character -- in scene 305 he's just called "LEADER"
and "the leader of the Hunt Club".
> >
>
> I thought the only things included in your "scenario" are what
actually made it to the screen, and that the out-takes, etc. weren't
a part of that? (That your idea of "canon" is only what we see in the
films and the 14 episodes...)
>
> Anyway, the Leader of the Hunt club is his own ape and it can't be
Ursus... They show the Hunt Leader in PLANET, and it's obvious he
isn't the same ape who is the leader of the apes army...

*** I've addressed this before, but as far as my POTA project is
concerned, it is canon ABSOLUTELY if it is on-screen. It is ALLOWABLE
for use in my project if a FILMED yet EDITED-OUT scene exists -- such
as the Doomsday Bomb stuff from "BATTLE" and the extended steambath
scene in "BENEATH", etc., as long as those scenes don't conflict with
what ended up on-screen.

I'm also considering "usable" scripted scenes that may not have been
filmed (let alone included as part of a theatrical cut) that are good
and don't conflict with the on-screen details. Such as, the dialogue
between the Ape-onauts inside the ship, before they are seen taking
their helmets off, and the "teaser" scene of "CONQUEST" involving the
ape trying to escape Breck's city. Whether they were filmed or not,
they're good scenes, and -- if they don't conflict -- they perhaps
deserve to be included. The latter scene is alluded to in "CONQUEST"
when Breck mentions "that ape ... physically assaulted his own
master!" That's a story-within-a-story itself: WHY did that happen?
Why did its master beat him severely? There's room for speculation.

As for the Hunt Leader in "PLANET", in my scenario, the gorilla who
is the Hunt Leader during the Hunt and who asks Zaius "What's Dr.
Zira trying to prove?" is the Hunt Leader in the FIRST part of the
movie... but then he DIES (perhaps he's murdered...?) and it is HIS
funeral that Taylor "crashes" the next day, when he escapes from his
cage. That deceased ape is called "a gorilla to remember" and is said
to have been a "hunter... warrior... defender of the faith... a font
of simian kindness" etc. He's a HUNTER. He's not the CHIEF defender
of the faith -- that's Zaius. But he's ONE of 'em... it kinda sounds
like it's a Fraternity of some kind, like being a Mason nowadays.

When THIS Hunt Leader dies and is buried, a NEW Hunt Leader takes
over that position: Ursus. Since we never did get to see that edited-
out footage, there's no problem with having HIM be a "new" Hunt
Leader, with that harsh catch-phrase. Unlike his predecessor, Ursus
is not a "font of simian kindness".

Ursus, the "new" Hunt Leader (in my scenario), doesn't wear the
Helmet and Armor in "PLANET" because he doesn't have cause to don the
regalia and uniform of the Army General until he seizes power, which
he doesn't do until AFTER the events of "PLANET" are done. He seizes
upon the "incident" regarding the scouts in the Forbidden Zone and
declares a state of Martial Law, giving him the Executive Powers to
wage a war against the Unknown dwellers in the Zone. THEN he puts on
the armor-plated tunic & gloves... the studded poncho... the helmet.

His civilian 'job' was as Hunt Leader. When he seizes power, he's not
a civilian -- he's THE government.

That's my scenario, however. 'Canon' only for me.

Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29931 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/24/2005 7:07:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Hi Elaine.

 

Sorry for your loss.

 

At the moment there is a rift between myself and my parents that seems irreparable.  Thinking of their mortality makes me wish there is something that can be done to make us all happy or at least not resentful.

 

I hope you and your dad were on good terms.

 

Michael

 

Oh, I was a Daddy's girl. I have a few stuffed apes he gave me. My mother who died in 2003 was a sci-fi nut like me and even went to a few Star Trek conventions with me. She loved the original pota as well. My father never could quite understand my sci-fi obsession but started watching Voyager because he liked Seven of Nine. Hope you are able to reconcile with your parents. Elaine

             
 
              

 

<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29932 From: taebokitti@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/25/2005 9:41:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:
I am so sorry to hear that. I hope everything will work out alright
for you. Remember that you have friends here, too and if we can help
in any way just let us know.



--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, taebokitti@a... wrote:
> Love the home page especially little Taylor! Reminds me of the
Kubrick
> figures. A great cheerer upper, unfortunately my father died
Thursday morning. Elaine

 
Thank you. Elaine



Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*>
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29933 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 2:09:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


*** Well, it's all part of my overall Scenario


And that's the problem: I shouldn't be arguing with you over your scenario.  It has nothing to do with the movies themselves, it's just your crazy rewriting of them.

I've hated your "scenario" ever since you first started talking about it years ago.  It stinks.

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29934 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 2:09:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


I've chosen to re-interpret Taylor's line (as well as dialogue
from "BENEATH" between Skipper and Brent) so that the word "EARTH" is
in reference NOT to the planet they came from, but to the Command
Ship (the "Mothership") that he thinks MIGHT be in orbit and within
RADIO-TRANSMISSION/RECEPTION RANGE.

It would be like if the shuttlecraft GALILEO were to crash into a
lake, and Spock were to tell Scotty: "Mister Scott, get out a last
signal... to ENTERPRISE, that we've landed."

Thus, the word "EARTH" would denote (in this line of dialogue) the
name of the Mission's Command ship. It would be a "Spaceship Earth".


Is everyone reading this?  Patrick's "re-imagining" of the POTA series.  It's on the same level of POTA2001.

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29935 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 1:49:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:


Anyway, the Leader of the Hunt club is his own ape and it can't be Ursus... They show the Hunt Leader in PLANET, and it's obvious he isn't the same ape who is the leader of the apes army...


In my "scenario" Ursus was out on maneuvers during the events of PLANET.

Oh, and Brent was in orbit in the Mothership called "Earth"!  Yeah, that's the ticket!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29936 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 3:12:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


As for the Hunt Leader in "PLANET", in my scenario, the gorilla who
is the Hunt Leader during the Hunt and who asks Zaius "What's Dr.
Zira trying to prove?" is the Hunt Leader in the FIRST part of the
movie... but then he DIES (perhaps he's murdered...?) and it is HIS
funeral that Taylor "crashes" the next day, when he escapes from his
cage. That deceased ape is called "a gorilla to remember" and is said
to have been a "hunter... warrior... defender of the faith... a font
of simian kindness" etc. He's a HUNTER. He's not the CHIEF defender
of the faith -- that's Zaius. But he's ONE of 'em... it kinda sounds
like it's a Fraternity of some kind, like being a Mason nowadays.

When THIS Hunt Leader dies and is buried, a NEW Hunt Leader takes
over that position: Ursus.


Oh, how I wish a house would fall on you, Patrick!  At least that whatever the hell this hell spawn "project" of yours never gets out of your bedroom, where I suspect you've made an art of all kinds of masturbatory activity -- of which this nefarious "project" is just one!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29937 From: Tim Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: PLOOG!
.html
Today I went to the Heroes Comic Convention here in Charlotte, NC and
stood and waited for Mr. Mike Ploog to autograph a Marvel Issue No. 1 ! Right
under the Lawgiver in "Terror". Then I asked if he could draw an ape for
me....and he did! I have posted the drawing under Photos>Art. ..He was a very
nice gentleman. I asked where he got his references for the series (which he
LOVED working on) and he said he had some pics but also was friends with
the original storyboard artist whose name I, of course, have forgotten! I
thouroughly enjoyed meeting him and it made my day!

Tim
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29938 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/05 7:35:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, apefan23@... writes:


Today I went to the Heroes Comic Convention here in Charlotte, NC and
stood and waited for Mr. Mike Ploog to autograph a Marvel Issue No. 1 ! Right
under the Lawgiver in "Terror". Then I asked if he could draw an ape for
me....and he did! I have posted the drawing under Photos>Art. ..He was a very
nice gentleman. I asked  where he got his references for the series (which he
LOVED working on) and he said he had some pics but  also was friends with
the original storyboard artist whose name I, of course, have forgotten! I
thouroughly enjoyed meeting him and it made my day!

Tim


Was the name Don Peters?  Or Fred Harpman maybe?

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29939 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home Page Picture
.html
Wow! it must run in the family! very talented kids
Neil!

Tim



--- Neil <nfoster@...> wrote:

> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty"
> <whitty@c...> wrote:
> >LOVE the new picture!
> > http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/
> > "Oh my God, they killed DODGE! You BASTARDS!"
>
> -- Actually this one is the fault of my kids. A
> combination of school
> holidays and too much South Park fried their brains
> and they started
> making these figures in a paint program. The gorilla
> was done by Ray
> and Tim did Taylor.
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>




__________________________________
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29940 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: German Touring Stage Play
.html
It is a production of the opera "Rigaletto"...it says
in the address....

--- Michael Whitty <whitty@...> wrote:

> Apparently there is a German musical road show for
> Planet of the Apes.
>
> I know there was a Tranny stage play version of it
> in Sydney, but this
> looks "legit" (however it looks based on POTA
> 2001?).
>
> I know very little about it.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Haristas@...
> Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 10:58 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: German Touring Stage Play
>
> In a message dated 6/24/05 8:55:27 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> taebokitti@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> Just awesome! Our pota musical has arrived! Makes me
> want to fly to
> Germany to see it. Thanks for sharing this, Michael.
> Elaine
>
>
> What's this all about?
>
> -- Rory
>




__________________________________
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29941 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
Thinking of you Elain!

Tim



--- Michael Whitty <whitty@...> wrote:

> Hi Elaine.
>
> Sorry for your loss.
>
> At the moment there is a rift between myself and my
> parents that seems
> irreparable. Thinking of their mortality makes me
> wish there is
> something that can be done to make us all happy or
> at least not
> resentful.
>
> I hope you and your dad were on good terms.
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of taebokitti@...
> Sent: Saturday, 25 June 2005 11:14 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Home page
>
> Love the home page especially little Taylor! Reminds
> me of the Kubrick
> figures. A great cheerer upper, unfortunately my
> father died Thursday
> morning. Elaine
>
> --
>




____________________________________________________
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29942 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
.html
No..it was longer...I knew I should've written it
down......but I was in awe watching him draw....I'll
try and look it up...I was wondering if he meant the
concept artistt as I have never seen any storyboard
drawings from any of the ApES movies...has anyone?
Tim

> also was friends with
> > the original storyboard artist whose name I, of
> course, have forgotten! I
> > thouroughly enjoyed meeting him and it made my
> day!
> >
> > Tim
> >
>
> Was the name Don Peters? Or Fred Harpman maybe?
>
> -- Rory
>




____________________________________________________
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29943 From: John Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
.html
That is incredible that he took the time and drew that for you. I am
so jealous. You have a picture drawn by "the man" and there is no
arguing over this one. Lucky bastard. I gotta get Neil to draw me a
quick original doodle before he gets too big and I have to stand in
line for him to write his name on a comic book. :)




--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <apefan23@y...> wrote:
> Today I went to the Heroes Comic Convention here in Charlotte, NC
and
> stood and waited for Mr. Mike Ploog to autograph a Marvel Issue No.
1 ! Right
> under the Lawgiver in "Terror". Then I asked if he could draw an
ape for
> me....and he did! I have posted the drawing under Photos>Art. ..He
was a very
> nice gentleman. I asked where he got his references for the series
(which he
> LOVED working on) and he said he had some pics but also was
friends with
> the original storyboard artist whose name I, of course, have
forgotten! I
> thouroughly enjoyed meeting him and it made my day!
>
> Tim
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29944 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
.html

Hey Patrick

 

I like the idea of having Ursus be the Hunt Leader!

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent:
Saturday, 25 June 2005 11:59 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: The only good human...

 

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:

*** According to Eric Greene (in his book), Ursus' line -- "The only
GOOD
human is a DEAD human!" -- "... is adapted from U.S. General

Sheridan's genocidal curse that "the only good Indian is a dead
Indian." (page 63).

Of course, this ISN'T the first time that that phrase had
been 'uttered' -- if, that is, they actually filmed as-scripted the
scene when the Hunt Club tries to commandeer Zira's wagon
in "PLANET". She and Lucius convince them that the humans in their
wagon are rabid (etc), and the gorillas reluctantly let them go on
their way, and the Hunt Leader says: "I still say the only good human
is a dead human." This is in scene 305 of the Serling/Wilson
screenplay, BTW.

I get the impression that Dehn liked that line and -- perhaps working
from the 1st film's script when he wrote the sequel -- decided to
include it in his sequel story. Based on all this, in my POTA
project, I'm gonna have it that the Hunt Leader in this filmed-yet-
edited-out scene actually IS Ursus -- and that this "catch phrase" is
something he tends to say rather often, to whomever may be around to
hear it. The "PLANET" script never named this character -- in scene
305 he's just called "LEADER" and "the leader of the Hunt Club".

Patrick


-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29945 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
.html
.html

I have a drawing of Neil’s doodle and it does not require a very big frame!

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Sunday, 26 June 2005 12:04 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: PLOOG!

 

That is incredible that he took the time and drew that for you. I am
so jealous. You have a picture drawn by "the man" and there is no
arguing over this one. Lucky bastard. I gotta get Neil to draw me a
quick original doodle before he gets too big and I have to stand in
line for him to write his name on a comic book. :)




--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <apefan23@y...> wrote:
> Today I went to the Heroes Comic Convention here in Charlotte, NC
and
> stood and waited for Mr. Mike Ploog to autograph a Marvel Issue No.
1 ! Right
> under the Lawgiver in "Terror". Then I asked if he could draw an
ape for
> me....and he did! I have posted the drawing under Photos>Art. ..He
was a very
> nice gentleman. I asked  where he got his references for the series
(which he
> LOVED working on) and he said he had some pics but  also was
friends with
> the original storyboard artist whose name I, of course, have
forgotten! I
> thouroughly enjoyed meeting him and it made my day!
>
> Tim


-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29946 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Map and Distances (Revised)
.html
.html

Oh boy – Rory calling someone childish!  The irony!  ;)

 

Next we’ll have James accusing someone of being a thief.

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Sunday, 26 June 2005 2:41 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Map and Distances (Revised)

 

In a message dated 6/25/05 12:25:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:



they still delivered a story
that I, for one, do not consider "juvenile" and crappy or whatever
negative epithet you want to slag it with.



Which just goes to shown how in some ways you're still a little boy, Patrick! 

Patrick Peter-Pan, that's you!

-- Rory

<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29947 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Mr Ploog
.html
.html

Neil,

 

Do you have a story to share with everyone regarding our good friends at Simian Scrolls?

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent:
Sunday, 26 June 2005 12:04 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: PLOOG!

 

That is incredible that he took the time and drew that for you. I am
so jealous. You have a picture drawn by "the man" and there is no
arguing over this one. Lucky bastard. I gotta get Neil to draw me a
quick original doodle before he gets too big and I have to stand in
line for him to write his name on a comic book. :)




--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <apefan23@y...> wrote:
> Today I went to the Heroes Comic Convention here in Charlotte , NC
and
> stood and waited for Mr. Mike Ploog to autograph a Marvel Issue No.
1 ! Right
> under the Lawgiver in "Terror". Then I asked if he could draw an
ape for
> me....and he did! I have posted the drawing under Photos>Art. ..He
was a very
> nice gentleman. I asked  where he got his references for the series
(which he
> LOVED working on) and he said he had some pics but  also was
friends with
> the original storyboard artist whose name I, of course, have
forgotten! I
> thouroughly enjoyed meeting him and it made my day!
>
> Tim


-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29948 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
.html

I like 7 of 9 too and the stories in Voyager got REALLY good around the time of her arrival.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of taebokitti@...
Sent: Sunday, 26 June 2005 7:55 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Home page

 

In a message dated 6/24/2005 7:07:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

Hi Elaine.

 

Sorry for your loss.

 

At the moment there is a rift between myself and my parents that seems irreparable.  Thinking of their mortality makes me wish there is something that can be done to make us all happy or at least not resentful.

 

I hope you and your dad were on good terms.

 

Michael

 

 

Oh, I was a Daddy's girl. I have a few stuffed apes he gave me. My mother who died in 2003 was a sci-fi nut like me and even went to a few Star Trek conventions with me. She loved the original pota as well. My father never could quite understand my sci-fi obsession but started watching Voyager because he liked Seven of Nine. Hope you are able to reconcile with your parents. Elaine

             

 

              

 


--

 


--
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29949 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"
.html
.html

Like I say with any enormous project, Patrick, BREAK IT UP INTO MANAGEABLE CHUNKS!!!  ;)

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Sunday, 26 June 2005 4:09 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Another ship and my "brilliant scenario"

 

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/22/05 2:17:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > After BOTH those ships had gone down along that same flightpath
("Taylor's trajectory"), the 3rd ship's crew radio'd up that
telemetry to their orbiting Command ship, and at some point -- WEEKS
later -- the Command ship transmitted that same telemetric
information over to Skipper/Brent's ship while they were still
hibernating away, to conserve on air & food, so that they could later
make use of it when THEY did their re-entry burn, to land near
Taylor's spot.
>
>
> Has it ever occurred to as odd, Patrick, that the astronauts in
PLANET make no mention of there being another ship?  How does your
brilliant scenario deal with that paradox?
>
> Patrick, you make me so tired.
---------------------------------------------------------------
*** Well, it's all part of my overall Scenario, and you did ASK, so
here goes again...

1. Taylor's mission is out to an unnamed planet orbiting a star 320
lightyears away in Orion.

2. After seeing the EARTH-TIME clock read "11-25-3978" Taylor assumes
that they made it to their destination. He doesn't have a CLUE that
they somehow wound up back on Earth. He thinks the planet Earth is
320 lightyears away -- "another planet in another solar system".

3. He told whomever "are reading me now" (when the EARTH-TIME clock
reads March 2673) that he was completing his Final Report UNTIL WE
REACH TOUCHDOWN. He wasn't talking about a football game -- he was
saying that WHEN they reached their destination and actually landed
on the planet they were supposed to reach, he would THEN make ANOTHER
REPORT, probably a "Mission Status" report of some kind. In other
words, he would beam a radio signal from Destination to the planet
Earth, to let the descendants of those who had sent him on the
journey know what's going on.

4. When they woke up -- already on the planet's surface, after
landing in the water despite being programmed NOT to do so -- Taylor
orders Landon, after the PRIMARY power fritzes out, to "Get out a
last signal!" -- "What signal?" -- "To EARTH, that we've landed!"

They don't have the luxury of transmitting a Mission Status report at
their leisure. The ship is SINKING. The AUXILIARY power is about to
be fritzed out (which is why he orders Dodge to "blow the hatch,
before we lose Auxiliary Power!"). Taylor TRIED to "read the tapes"
in those few desperate moments, but TIME was running out and the
power cut out so that they had no choice but to "Abandon ship!"

If they had only made "PLANET", then Taylor's line to Landon would
make the MOST sense to mean, "Landon, get out a Last Signal... to the
PLANET EARTH, that we've landed!"

However, Taylor doesn't have the luxury of knowing that it would even
work. A radio signal, sent from a spaceship on the surface of a
planet and beamed out across 320 lightyears of space, in order for it
to reach Earth it would HAVE to be on the "clear" side of the planet
to begin with. For all Taylor knows, the Sol System is currently in
that part of the sky over the OTHER side of the planet. Any radio
signal would have -- at best -- a 50% chance of getting to Earth...
320 years later.

If he WERE where he anticipated being -- on that alien planet in the
year 3978 -- then he would have to assume that Earthlings back on
planet Earth wouldn't receive his transmission (if at all) until the
year 4298. It would take 320 years for the radio transmission to
travel all the way back to the Sol System.

I've chosen to re-interpret Taylor's line (as well as dialogue
from "BENEATH" between Skipper and Brent) so that the word "EARTH" is
in reference NOT to the planet they came from, but to the Command
Ship (the "Mothership") that he thinks MIGHT be in orbit and within
RADIO-TRANSMISSION/RECEPTION RANGE.

It would be like if the shuttlecraft GALILEO were to crash into a
lake, and Spock were to tell Scotty: "Mister Scott, get out a last
signal... to ENTERPRISE, that we've landed."

Thus, the word "EARTH" would denote (in this line of dialogue) the
name of the Mission's Command ship. It would be a "Spaceship Earth".

I know that there are those who find THIS particular bit of re-
interpretation to be hard to take. Past messages in the old Yahoo
group from my vehement detractors gave me plenty of guff about it,
and they don't have to accept it or like it, it don't bother me. But
I think it makes MORE sense than what was intended by the script-
writers in the first place.

First off, Taylor KNOWS that the PRIMARY power is lost. They're
restricted to a rapidly depleting AUXILIARY power supply. They're
sinking, and when he orders Landon to "get out a last signal" they
are TRAPPED inside this sinking ship.

What if they run out of AUXILIARY/secondary power BEFORE Dodge has a
chance to "blow the hatch"? Dodge is testing the outside air, and
they can only HOPE that it's breathable. But even if it IS, they
won't have a CHANCE to breathe it if the hatch's blast-mechanism
doesn't have the power to activate. If that hatch doesn't get blown
off, they'll die when the ship goes down. They'll drown to death, all
because the auxiliary power ran out.

So, why WASTE any precious auxiliary power by having some of it
shunted to the RADIO COMMUNICATIONS gear? Electrical power, at that
point, is as precious to them as the 8 ounces of water left in that
canteen some days later.

Lucky for them that Dodge "reads the atmosphere" in good time,
informs them that it's "okay" and has time to press that button to
make the hatch explode off. A mere FEW SECONDS later, the auxiliary
power is gone.

I don't think it makes as much sense for Taylor to be giving Landon a
task that really doesn't matter much -- sending a radio signal out
which won't reach Earth until 320 years have gone by, if at all --
when electrical power is so critical to their very survival.

I think it makes MUCH more sense that Taylor -- in his whirlwind
state-of-mine, trying to make sense of the fact that they've landed
in such a way that they weren't programmed to ('in the water') --
perhaps guesses that the Command ship that their shuttle HAD BEEN
attached to had suffered some sort of snafu requiring the emergency
disconnection of its shuttles -- both the one seen in "PLANET" and
the one eventually seen in "BENEATH". Thus, while HE and his
shuttle's crew are on the surface of the planet, their Command Ship
just MIGHT still be up in space, in orbit, within radio range. And IF
it is, then some of the other ANSA astronauts in the larger crew
Taylor commanded might be "up there".

Why not send up a radio message to fellow astronauts who MAY be up
there waiting to hear from them?

I've just thought of something. When Landon goes about his task of
getting out that 'last signal', he doesn't SAY anything. He just
starts pressing buttons, and so forth. We never hear him say
something like, "This is Lieutenant Landon, of the starship ICARUS,
calling Earth... We have reached our destination, and are sending out
this confirmation... We've landed in a body of water and are sinking,
I repeat: Sinking..." etc etc.

Why doesn't Landon say ANYTHING, I wonder? Unless the "signal" he's
supposed to get out can be delivered by the mere press of a button,
as if it's pre-programmed.

What if... he doesn't say anything because he's trying to "tune in"
the radio frequency of the "U.S.S. EARTH" -- the Command ship he also
thinks may be up in space? Imagine trying to tune in an AM radio
station, amidst all the hiss and static. Perhaps he is waiting to
hear a CLEAR and undeniable radio link-up radio signal -- perhaps
some sort of periodic "ping" or tone, or even the voice of somebody
on the other end of that radio transceiver.

"--calling Shuttle One: Taylor... do you read me? Over. This is
U.S.S. EARTH calling Shuttle One: Taylor... do you read me? Over.
This is U.S.S. EARTH calling--"

Perhaps Landon's waiting to hear something like THAT from the radio,
so that he can then send out a REPLY after the next time the
word "Over" is spoken. But the power runs out before he can get into
radio CONTACT with that orbiting ship.

With no means of getting into radio contact with ANY orbiting ship,
there's no way they know of for their fellow ANSA astronauts who MAY
be up there to know where they are, to send down any other ship to
pick 'em up.

"We're here to stay," Taylor says, after the ship sinks below the
surface of the lake. If an orbiting ship is "up there" looking down,
it won't see any traces of the shuttle. They evidently don't have any
portable radio units in their backpacks, since Taylor's inventory of
them doesn't mention it.

Perhaps Taylor DID mention their Command ship when he told Landon (in
my re-interpretation of this dialogue) to "get out a last signal...
to [the maybe-orbiting U.S.S.] Earth, that we've landed!"

Taking into account the scene in "BENEATH" when Skipper asks
Brent "Did you contact Earth?" helps to bolster this re-
interpretation.

Brent and Skipper have every reason to believe that they are on an
ALIEN PLANET, lightyears away from Earth. Neither one of 'em knows
that the sun shining down on them is Sol, the Earth's sun. Skipper
laments, "If only I could see the sun!" and Brent says, "You can feel
it" (Skipper's blind, but his skin feels the heat).

"Yes, but... which sun?"

HE DOESN'T KNOW. He must, then, think that it is some star OTHER THAN
THE ONE OUR PLANET EARTH ORBITS.

It is ONE thing to send out a "signal" to a planet that is LIGHTYEARS
away -- which is what is implied in "PLANET" that Landon was ordered
to attempt. But it is another thing entirely to be able to "CONTACT"
a planet that is believed to be lightyears away.

Unless they have a STAR TREK-like "subspace radio", there is NO way
they can get into radio contact with a planet orbiting around another
star. Hell, you can't even get into contact with a planet in the same
star system -- not in a "real-time" conversation, anyway. If Venus
were habitable, and Earth was at its closest approach to it, they'd
be separated by a distance of 0.3 astronomical units, which is about
2.5 light-minutes. If Brent said, "Hello?" into a radio while on
Venus -- the planet CLOSEST to Earth -- then the EARLIEST he could
hope to receive a reply would be 5 minutes later, even assuming that
Venus were habitable (it isn't) and at its closest approach, rather
than at some other location in its orbit relative to Earth's location.

The only way for Skipper's line to make sense is if by "Earth" he
does NOT mean the planet Earth... but something ELSE named "Earth"
that IS (perhaps) within radio-transception range, and is also
lightyears away from the star which people on planet Earth call
the "Sun". Skipper and Brent erroneously believe that they've landed
on a planet -- a world with a BREATHABLE ATMOSPHERE (which rules out
any other planet in the Sol System) -- which is NOT the planet Earth,
but a world orbiting some OTHER star.

As Brent says, "I don't know what planet we're on..." etc. He doesn't
know they're on the planet Earth. Believing he's on an ALIEN planet
with a breathable atmosphere, lightyears from Sol and Earth, he has
recently been attempting to CONTACT "EARTH".

He CAN'T have been attempting to contact the planet Earth without a
subspace radio, and I don't see these ANSA ships being equipped with
such a device. These ANSA ships may be able to traverse 320
lightyears of space, but they cannot get into "real-time" radio
contact with places lightyears away.

I submit that the best interpretation of Skipper & Brent's dialogue
is NOT what Dehn originally intended it to mean (which puts it at
odds with the scenario established in "PLANET"), but instead has it
that there is something called "EARTH" other than the planet these
ANSA ships came from. Something named "EARTH" that is "up there" when
Brent -- shocked at hearing Ursus, an ape, talking and rabble-rousing
against Humans -- says to himself: "I gotta get back... UP THERE... I
don't know HOW or WHAT WITH... but I'm not staying here..."

In other words, he needs to get back to the Orion Mission's main
ship, the Command ship, named "U.S.S. EARTH"... but he doesn't know
HOW he's gonna do that, since the ship he piloted down to the surface
crashed and its computer has since become "shot".

His only hope is to acquire either a working RADIO -- so that he can
contact that orbiting U.S.S. EARTH and have them send down another
shuttle to the vicinity of his radio transmission, to pick him up --
or to use a working radio to contact one of the other ANSA shuttles
that may have also landed on the planet's surface, so that he can go
to it and hitch a ride off the planet of the talking monkeys.

He never mentions being the ONLY one sent to find Taylor. He does say
that he's alone, his Skipper being dead. He doesn't know one way or
another if any other ANSA ship might be around -- either docked to
the orbiting mothership U.S.S. EARTH or perhaps also having landed on
the surface. Either way, if he can somehow find a WORKING RADIO, he
just MIGHT be able to avoid getting killed by the Apes and get his
ass off this crazy 'alien' planet.

He needs to get back "up there"... NOT just into Space, which
wouldn't do him much good if there was nowhere to go. At least on the
planet there's breathable air... water... nearly naked chicks in
tattered bikinis... He needs to get back "up there" because there's
something THERE to go TO.

They had a gun in one of Taylor's crew's backpacks, with 20 rounds of
ammo, if I recall. Chances are, any supplies up in the orbiting ship,
all part of the "cargo" Taylor implies was available above and beyond
their most precious cargo, Lieutenant Stewart, would include GUNS and
AMMUNITION. If the Orion Mission were entirely one of peace, then why
did the landing party backpacks include a weapon? Is it "standard
issue" for ANSA astronauts? If they were to come across Creatures
who -- by Taylor's standards -- were "better than Man", what would
They think of these Earthlings, bringing a HANDGUN along with 'em on
their interstellar journey?

One last thing. When Taylor first sees Brent, he says, "You're...
BRENT! How in HELL did you GET here?!"

Brent ain't wearing his ANSA uniform, and it takes him a second or
two to recognize him... but he does. Taylor, in my re-interpretation,
doesn't know how it was possible for Brent to be there, because when
his own ship sank into Dead Lake, LANDON HADN'T HAD ANY SUCCESS WHEN
ATTEMPTING TO GET OUT THAT LAST SIGNAL TO "EARTH". The secondary
power had fritzed out, the attempt failed. There was no signal sent
out for ANY other ship to receive. So, how could Brent have gotten to
him?

Brent knows -- as he tells Skipper -- that they had been following
Taylor's trajectory; in my interpretation, an ORBIT-TO-LANDING RE-
ENTRY TRAJECTORY. Brent knew that Taylor's ship had landed somewhere
near his landing site. Taylor hasn't figured out yet HOW Brent
could've known where that was, just as he hasn't figured out yet how
it is that his own ship managed to land "in the water" despite the
fact that it wasn't programmed to do that very thing.

Taylor hasn't figured out that somebody on one of the other ANSA
shuttles had REMOTELY-PILOTED his ship down to its water landing, by-
passing the programming so that the ship was no longer "on full
automatic in the hands of the computers". And those SAME people who
managed to land Taylor's ship while he and his crew were still under
the effects of the hibernation drugs also, then, transmitted that re-
entry flightpath trajectory telemetry into BRENT'S ship's computer,
so that Brent could then follow that path down to the same area.

There was so much for Taylor to ask Brent, and for Brent to tell
Taylor... but that creepy Negro mutant was there, and before they
know it, his eyes are closed and they're mind-controlled into trying
to slaughter each other.

Any other such conversations as to the Hows and Whys and What the
Hell Happened, evidently, happen OFF SCREEN.

And, that's enough for now. Damn, I do tend to post long messages,
don't I? I make Rory tired, and T's probably fast asleep by now...

Patrick


-- <.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29950 From: mlccougar@aol.com Date: 6/25/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/25/2005 10:11:07 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

I like the idea of having Ursus be the Hunt Leader!

Don't you get started on rewriting PLANET!!!
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29951 From: Michael Whitty Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: The only good human...
.html
.html

Someone needs to – it’s a MESS!  ;)

 

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Sunday, 26 June 2005 2:38 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: The only good human...

 

In a message dated 6/25/2005 10:11:07 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:


I like the idea of having Ursus be the Hunt Leader!



Don't you get started on rewriting PLANET!!!

<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29952 From: LordTZer0@AOL.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Home page
.html
.html
In a message dated 6/25/2005 10:24:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:
I like 7 of 9 too and the stories in Voyager got REALLY good around the time of her arrival.
 
I can't help calling her 7 of 11.
That and 6 of 9.
 
 
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29953 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Filmed-yet-edited out scenes
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , LordTZer0@A... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/25/2005 11:39:49 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> Haristas@a... writes:
>
> Based on all this, in my POTA
> project, I'm gonna have it that the Hunt Leader in this filmed-yet-
> edited-out scene actually IS Ursus
>
>
>
> Wait, let me get this straight.
> You rewriting POTA so there's
> a filmed, yet edited out, scene?
> What purpose does that serve?
> You're completely insane!

*** I'm NOVELIZING "PLANET", re-novelizing "BENEATH"-through-
"BATTLE", (re-)novelizing all 14 TV episodes (the 8 Effinger already
did, plus the other 6), so as to tell one humongous overall story.

What purpose does it serve? Well, MY purpose(s), for one. In my
scenario, all the ANSA astronauts we've seen on-screen so far knew
each other -- Taylor knew Virdon & Burke, for instance. They each
left Earth in their respective missions (to Alpha Centauri and
to 'somewhere' in Orion) within a half-year of each other, and as a
result of Taylor being chosen to head the Orion mission and Virdon to
head the Centauri mission -- rather than vice versa -- the Earth ends
up being destroyed: Virdon, in Taylor's shoes, would not have
detonated the Bomb, because they are fundamentally different people.

Taylor left Earth because there was nobody to hold him there (he was
a lonely, embittered man)... but Virdon left Earth on the Centauri
mission with the intention of eventually getting back home to his
wife Sally, and even when Burke thinks he's "off his rocker" to think
he has cause to hope he'll return to her one day, he's the type of
guy who would cling to that impossible hope. Virdon wouldn't have
made the 'connection' to Nova that Taylor made -- Virdon would've
kept faithful to his long-dead wife -- so that Nova's death, though
tragic, wouldn't have been "just another brick in the wall" that
eventually drove Taylor to detonate the Bomb.

In a way, the decision (by somebody, be it the President or some ANSA
upper-eschelon decision-maker) to send George Taylor and Alan Virdon
to command their respective missions has repercussions that could
hardly be imagined at the time (late 1971). Kinda like choosing a
President, to see what sorts of decisions they'll make that will
affect us all, whether we like it or not, and that'll be felt years
down the line by later generations. Imagine Taylor and Burke in 3085,
and Virdon, Landon & Dodge in 3955 -- how differently would things
have gone down, then?

The POTA saga affords an opportunity for any 'fanfic' author to
address those topics that matter to them. The guys who wrote all the
POTA scripts after "PLANET", from Dehn & the Corringtons to the TV
scripters, they all had things on their mind that they could address
in the fictional 'world' of POTA. Just as STAR TREK writers could
address topics near and dear to their own perspectives. POTA is
specifically apropos for discussions of Race, Religion, Politics,
even Sexuality.

Why is it "insane" to include scenes that didn't make it into the
final print? All the prior novelizations (the film ones, anyway)
include scenes that were in the scripts yet did not make it into the
finished film -- whether those scenes were filmed or not. My own
attempts to 'improve' on the prior novelizations centers around being
slavishly faithful to the actual filmed-as-spoken dialogue. Working
from the shooting scripts, Avallone, Pournelle, Jakes & Gerrold all
wrote novelizations that have dialogue that varies from the actual
filmed dialogue.

One quick example. In "ESCAPE", the script has Zira say, "Because I
loathe and detest bananas." (scene B-33)

Pournelle's novelization (chapter 5, page 32) has this paragraph:

Zira turned to the girl. "Because I loathe and detest bananas." Her
voice was very clear and carefully controlled.

In issue 12 of Marvel's POTA magazine, Dixon audibly
wonders, "HMMM... THEN I WONDER WHY THEY WON'T EAT THEM..." and Zira
replies, "BECAUSE WE LOATHE AND DETEST BANANAS!"

None of these is a slavishly faithful rendering of what Kim Hunter
spoke on-camera: "Because I loathe bananas!"

Kim's script called for her to say "Because I loathe AND DETEST
bananas" but she delivered her line without those two words -- "and
detest".

As far as I'm concerned, if it is NOT as it was spoken on-screen, it
isn't canon. The words "and detest" -- though they are in the script,
which Pournelle and Moench parroted, they are NOT what Kim spoke in
the actual movie, so that in MY project her actual words are and will
be, "Because I loathe bananas!"

Just as Han Solo's line about making the Kessel Run in less than
12 "standard time parts" in the original "STAR WARS" novelization
differs from the on-screen dialogue ("less than 12 parsecs") and thus
is not considered "canonical" for later writers of "STAR WARS" books,
so too am I deferring to what is on-screen. I wonder if Lucas will
ever have some other SF writer re-novelize the entire 6-film "STAR
WARS" saga, so as to have the text of that novelization be slavishly
faithful to the actual "final" versions of the films, where Greedo
shoots first, and all that? I could imagine a newer version of the
Episode IV story, where Ben Kenobi sees (and, via the Force, 'feels')
Luke falling in love/lust with the holographic recording of Princess
Leia -- his own sister -- and thinking to himself, 'Should I tell him
she's his sister? If I do, will it put her in danger? But if he's
kept in the dark about this much longer, it'll be tragic later on for
him to realize he's been masturbating over fantasies of a cute chick
he didn't know was his twin sister! What would Yoda do...?' etc. The
thoughts going through Obi-Wan's head would take on a whole new set
of assumptions, based on what the new prequels have added to the mix.

At any rate, my POTA project will occasionally continue a
conversation between certain characters after the filmed scene cuts
to the next scene (thus, all the 'afterwards' dialogue will be
original stuff I've added in), but where a filmed scene plays out
in "screen-time" my novelization will be absolutely faithful to the
dialogue delivered by the actors.

Not that you or Rory have to like it, of course...

Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29954 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Rory's just bein' petulant...
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/25/05 2:09:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
>
> > *** Well, it's all part of my overall Scenario
>
> And that's the problem: I shouldn't be arguing with you over your
scenario. It has nothing to do with the movies themselves, it's just
your crazy rewriting of them.

*** It has EVERYTHING to do with the movies themselves. And the TV
episodes, as well. You just hate Paul Dehn (et al.) for having added
onto the POTA saga, wishing that ONLY the 1st film existed. You're
predisposed to dislike anything having anything to do with "BENEATH"
and the rest. You're a "PLANET" fan, Rory, not a "POTA" fan. POTA,
whether you like it or not, includes all 5 films and the TV show.
Peripherally, it also includes the cartoon, the Marvel comics stories,
the other comics ("Urchak's Folly", etc), and so forth. You're like a
Bond fan who thinks that only "Dr. No" should be considered a "true"
Bond film, and that all the ones made afterwards -- "FROM RUSSIA WITH
LOVE" through "DIE ANOTHER DAY" are all somehow deviates that shouldn't
have been made in the first place, made only for the money!
Like "PLANET" was made with no regard for its profitability!
>
> I've hated your "scenario" ever since you first started talking about
it years ago. It stinks.
>
> -- Rory

*** You're welcome. My modus operandi, now, is to run every scenario
idea I get through you... and if you HATE it, I'll KNOW it's worth
putting in. You'll be my "reverse barometer"...

Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29955 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Brent's different orbit...
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/25/05 1:49:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mlccougar@a... writes:
>
>
> > Anyway, the Leader of the Hunt club is his own ape and it can't
be Ursus...
> > They show the Hunt Leader in PLANET, and it's obvious he isn't
the same ape who is the leader of the apes army...
> >
>
> In my "scenario" Ursus was out on maneuvers during the events of
PLANET.
>
> Oh, and Brent was in orbit in the Mothership called "Earth"! Yeah,
that's the ticket!
>
> -- Rory

*** In my scenario, Brent and his 'Skipper' are NOT in/on their
mission's Command ship. The two shuttles seen in "PLANET"
and "BENEATH" are initially attached to the Command ship via
umbilical connections, airlock-to-airlock. After the AUTOMATIC HOMING
DEVICE is activated, and the whole kit-and-kaboodle zips back to the
gravity well of the planet Earth, Taylor's shuttle -- which had
become detached from its umbilical airlock connection, yet had still
been within the Command ship's warpfield for the flight back to
Earth -- broke away from all physical connection to the Command ship,
and began to fall down the gravity well, to what would eventually be
a crash-landing (if steps aren't taken to prevent that).

As a result, the OTHER shuttle, on the the OTHER side of the Command
ship -- balancing it out, so to speak -- must first be purposely
detached from the Command ship so that any rocketry done to put the
Command ship into a stable orbit requires that its rockets have a
stable center of gravity.

Brent and all the other ANSA astronauts in this mission commanded by
Taylor were all able to move freely throughout their Command ship and
the attached shuttles prior to the time when they are put into their
Deep Sleep. Taylor, Landon, Dodge, and Stewart hibernate for 12
months in the hibernation chambers of "Shuttle One" (attached on one
side of their Command ship), while Brent, 'Skipper', and perhaps two
others are initially put into hibernation in the hibernation chambers
of "Shuttle Two" (attached on the OTHER side of the Command ship),
and the remaining ANSA astronauts -- if they are put into Deep Sleep
at all -- are in hibernation chambers aboard the Command ship.

When they're back in Earth-space, and Taylor's shuttle is detached
from them, and falling towards the planet, the Command ship's center
of gravity is off-kilter, and the few astronauts who are awake go
through the umbilical airlock connection to Shuttle Two... to find
that Brent and 'Skipper' are still alive, but that the other 2
astronauts are dead, like Stewart, their hibernation chambers damaged
for the same reason her chamber was damaged, evidently.

Those two corpses are quickly put into body bags and dragged through
the airlocks back into the Command ship. Then one of the astronauts
uses the computer systems of the Command ship to remotely control
Shuttle Two, causing it to detach itself purposely from its umbilical
connection to the Command ship. Thus, both the Command ship and
Shuttle Two are now free of each other -- free to have their engines
do a "burn" to get them into two different stable orbits. Brent
and 'Skipper' will spend the next several weeks still in hibernation,
unaware of what has gone on, unaware that their ship is no longer in
direct physical contact with the Command ship, and orbiting the
planet below in different orbital paths.

Three of the now-awake ANSA astronauts in the Command ship will get
into EVA suits and then get into Shuttle Three (in an
enclosed "shuttle bay", sorta like a "single-car garage") and fly
that shuttle out into space, to follow after the falling Shuttle One,
so as to use their ship's computer to override Shuttle One's computer
systems -- to remotely pilot it down to a relatively safe landing,
rather than just let it crash into the ground like a meteor. Thus,
overriding Taylor's ship's computer via remote-control, they land it
in the water -- which it wasn't programmed to do. It was no longer
operating according to its programming.

That, Rory, is the ticket. Brent wasn't in the "Mothership" in my
scenario; he was in the ship that eventually (badly) landed
in "BENEATH", in a different orbit than the Command ship. If you paid
attention to my prior postings about it, you should've known that. At
least KNOW the scenario you hate so much! Hate it if you want, just
be accurate about it when you jabber about it.

Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29956 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Filmed-yet-edited out scenes
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/26/05 10:08:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


Not that you or Rory have to like it, of course...

Patrick



And Fox certainly isn't going to like it, so your "novelization" will never get published, and no one but you will read it!

You do have me curious, though.  I wonder how you handle dialogue?  All the characters aren't going to sound like you, are they?

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29957 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Rory's just bein' petulant...
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/26/05 10:19:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


*** It has EVERYTHING to do with the movies themselves. And the TV
episodes, as well. You just hate Paul Dehn (et al.) for having added
onto the POTA saga, wishing that ONLY the 1st film existed. You're
predisposed to dislike anything having anything to do with "BENEATH"
and the rest. You're a "PLANET" fan, Rory, not a "POTA" fan.


Absolutely right, but it seems like many others here that are less critical of the merits of the sequels don't care much for your "re-writing" either.

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29958 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Rory's just bein' petulant...
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/26/05 10:19:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


I've hated your "scenario" ever since you first started talking about
it years ago.  It stinks.
>
> -- Rory

*** You're welcome. My modus operandi, now, is to run every scenario
idea I get through you... and if you HATE it, I'll KNOW it's worth
putting in. You'll be my "reverse barometer"...

Patrick


Fine.  And you know what?


YOUR "SCENARIO" WILL STILL STINK!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29959 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Rory's just bein' petulant...
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/26/05 10:19:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


You're like a
Bond fan who thinks that only "Dr. No" should be considered a "true"
Bond film, and that all the ones made afterwards -- "FROM RUSSIA WITH
LOVE" through "DIE ANOTHER DAY" are all somehow deviates that shouldn't
have been made in the first place, made only for the money!


Actually, I like all the Bond films from DR. NO thru to ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE.  After that the series increasingly became a parody of itself and I have a very hard time watching them -- and they were all made to make money!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29960 From: patrickmichaeltilton Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Manageable chunks
.html
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> Like I say with any enormous project, Patrick, BREAK IT UP INTO
> MANAGEABLE CHUNKS!!! ;)
>
> Michael

*** I'm way ahead of you on that, Mike. Each page will have the
equivalent of 4 pages worth (mass-market paperback sized pages, that
is) of material, and each chapter will be 10 pages long -- equivalent
to about 40 pages of your ordinary paperback book. Think of it this
way: the first 7 chapters of Pournelle's novelization of "ESCAPE"
cover pages 7 through 47. Each "chapter" of my project will be just
about that long, that much typed material. Each chapter will also be
broken up into smaller 'scenes', too.

However, whereas it took Pournelle about 150 pages of prose to
novelize "ESCAPE" (each of its 23 chapters averaging about 6 and a
half pages), my version of "ESCAPE" will be more in-depth, covering
in about 6 chapters the same events (and others happening
simultaneously, in-between the scenes and behind the scenes, etc).
Since 1 chapter will equal about 40 average paperback pages,
my "ESCAPE" portion of the project will be the equivalent of a 240-
page novelization. Multiply Pournelle's page count by 160% (or, 1.6)
and that's how much more in-depth my re-telling of "ESCAPE" will be.
Same will go for the other POTA filmed stories, essentially. The
events depicted in "PLANET" will cover more than that amount, though,
since the screen times of "PLANET" and "ESCAPE" differ by a
significant amount.

All told, the already established POTA saga -- "PLANET"-through-"UP
ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH" will comprise about 60% of the material in
my project. About 40%, the remainder, will be all original material
cooked up by me, partly giving just more background detail for
already established characters, and also introducing wholly original
characters and events (many of which are merely alluded to in the
POTA saga, like the "Scientists" who left the projector seen in "The
Legacy", for instance). The POTA saga "skipped over" the Nuclear War,
but my project will depict it in all its fury & tragedy. Stuff like
that.

Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29961 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/26/05 11:05:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:


All told, the already established POTA saga -- "PLANET"-through-"UP
ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH" will comprise about 60% of the material in
my project. About 40%, the remainder, will be all original material
cooked up by me, partly giving just more background detail for
already established characters, and also introducing wholly original
characters and events (many of which are merely alluded to in the
POTA saga, like the "Scientists" who left the projector seen in "The
Legacy", for instance). The POTA saga "skipped over" the Nuclear War,
but my project will depict it in all its fury & tragedy. Stuff like
that.

Patrick


I've decided I'm going to narc you out to Fox, Patrick.  You're a walking pestilence that must be stopped!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29962 From: Tim "apefan" Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: PLOOG!
.html
I agree! Ploog was very generous as were all the
artists...Who knows maybe "Beware the Beast " will be
the next big thing and then Whitty and neil will act
like they've never heard of us! "POTADG who? what the
hell is that?"

Tim

--- John <DrZaiusDavis@...> wrote:

> That is incredible that he took the time and drew
> that for you. I am
> so jealous. You have a picture drawn by "the man"
> and there is no
> arguing over this one. Lucky bastard. I gotta get
> Neil to draw me a
> quick original doodle before he gets too big and I
> have to stand in
> line for him to write his name on a comic book. :)
>
>
>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <apefan23@y...>
> wrote:
> > Today I went to the Heroes Comic Convention here
> in Charlotte, NC
> and
> > stood and waited for Mr. Mike Ploog to autograph a
> Marvel Issue No.
> 1 ! Right
> > under the Lawgiver in "Terror". Then I asked if he
> could draw an
> ape for
> > me....and he did! I have posted the drawing under
> Photos>Art. ..He
> was a very
> > nice gentleman. I asked where he got his
> references for the series
> (which he
> > LOVED working on) and he said he had some pics but
> also was
> friends with
> > the original storyboard artist whose name I, of
> course, have
> forgotten! I
> > thouroughly enjoyed meeting him and it made my
> day!
> >
> > Tim
>
>
>


<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29963 From: John Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
.html
I have a hard time reading threw your post. I can just imagine how
hard and time consuming trying to read your "senario" is going to
be. :) Kevin Smith will probably be saying "damn, that's a whole
lotta f*%$ing dialog." but I wish you luck. If that is how you want
to contribute to the Planet of the Apes universe, go for it. Besides,
I love the way you get to Rory. Its like our own private "Grumpy Old
Men" in a weird Sci-Fi way.



--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton"
<patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > Like I say with any enormous project, Patrick, BREAK IT UP INTO
> > MANAGEABLE CHUNKS!!! ;)
> >
> > Michael
>
> *** I'm way ahead of you on that, Mike. Each page will have the
> equivalent of 4 pages worth (mass-market paperback sized pages,
that
> is) of material, and each chapter will be 10 pages long --
equivalent
> to about 40 pages of your ordinary paperback book. Think of it this
> way: the first 7 chapters of Pournelle's novelization of "ESCAPE"
> cover pages 7 through 47. Each "chapter" of my project will be just
> about that long, that much typed material. Each chapter will also
be
> broken up into smaller 'scenes', too.
>
> However, whereas it took Pournelle about 150 pages of prose to
> novelize "ESCAPE" (each of its 23 chapters averaging about 6 and a
> half pages), my version of "ESCAPE" will be more in-depth, covering
> in about 6 chapters the same events (and others happening
> simultaneously, in-between the scenes and behind the scenes, etc).
> Since 1 chapter will equal about 40 average paperback pages,
> my "ESCAPE" portion of the project will be the equivalent of a 240-
> page novelization. Multiply Pournelle's page count by 160% (or,
1.6)
> and that's how much more in-depth my re-telling of "ESCAPE" will
be.
> Same will go for the other POTA filmed stories, essentially. The
> events depicted in "PLANET" will cover more than that amount,
though,
> since the screen times of "PLANET" and "ESCAPE" differ by a
> significant amount.
>
> All told, the already established POTA saga -- "PLANET"-through-"UP
> ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH" will comprise about 60% of the material in
> my project. About 40%, the remainder, will be all original material
> cooked up by me, partly giving just more background detail for
> already established characters, and also introducing wholly
original
> characters and events (many of which are merely alluded to in the
> POTA saga, like the "Scientists" who left the projector seen
in "The
> Legacy", for instance). The POTA saga "skipped over" the Nuclear
War,
> but my project will depict it in all its fury & tragedy. Stuff like
> that.
>
> Patrick
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29964 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/26/05 7:48:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:


I have a hard time reading threw your post. I can just imagine how
hard and time consuming trying to read your "senario" is going to
be. :) Kevin Smith will probably be saying "damn, that's a whole
lotta f*%$ing dialog." but I wish you luck. If that is how you want
to contribute to the Planet of the Apes universe, go for it. Besides,
I love the way you get to Rory. Its like our own private "Grumpy Old
Men" in a weird Sci-Fi way.


Patrick is evil, capable of nothing but destruction -- to the original POTA scripts!

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29965 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
.html
.html
Rory's not old - he's just GRUMPY!  ;)

Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 9:51 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Manageable chunks

In a message dated 6/26/05 7:48:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:


I have a hard time reading threw your post. I can just imagine how
hard and time consuming trying to read your "senario" is going to
be. :) Kevin Smith will probably be saying "damn, that's a whole
lotta f*%$ing dialog." but I wish you luck. If that is how you want
to contribute to the Planet of the Apes universe, go for it. Besides,
I love the way you get to Rory. Its like our own private "Grumpy Old
Men" in a weird Sci-Fi way.


Patrick is evil, capable of nothing but destruction -- to the original POTA scripts!

-- Rory
<.html

<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29966 From: Haristas@aol.com Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
.html
.html.html In a message dated 6/26/05 7:55:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:


Rory's not old - he's just GRUMPY!  ;)

Michael



Hey Whitty, are you finally producing manageable chunks yet, or are you still as full of it as you always have been?

-- Rory
<.html
<.html
<.html
Group: potadg Message: 29967 From: Whitty, Michael Date: 6/26/2005
Subject: Re: Manageable chunks
.html
.html
Bit of both - how about you?

Whitty
-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 10:00 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Manageable chunks

In a message dated 6/26/05 7:55:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:


Rory's not old - he's just GRUMPY!  ;)

Michael



Hey Whitty, are you finally producing manageable chunks yet, or are you still as full of it as you always have been?

-- Rory
<.html

<.html


Copyright © 2026, Hunter Goatley. All rights reserved.
Last updated 2026-03-31 10:43.