>
> I'd love to talk more about the story but I'll wait till the other

15

> diehards get to see these too.
>
>

Rory? Patrick? Dario? Where is everyone? You guys WANT to see the new
chapters of the "Within" story. Are you guys elsewhere arguing bout
timelines again? Trekkies.

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of John
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 9:51 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Within the POTA #41

You guys are killing me.


--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Whitty, Michael"
<Michael.Whitty@d...> wrote:
> Oh, give him a whole freaking PAGE!!!
> 
> It's the FOLLOWING page he's hanging for - remember it was his
suggestion
> that brought in the new sub-plot!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of
> Neil
> Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 9:31 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Within the POTA #41
>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "John" <DrZaiusDavis@a...> wrote:
> > Could we see them already? Please. I'm beggin' ya. Let me read
them
> before hurricane Dennis comes this weekend and kills our power.
>
> -- Chapter 41 is on it's way to you Doc. Ask and you will receive,
see
> it's painless!
>
> Neil
>

SPONSORED LINKS

Fantasy science fiction	Science fiction books	Science fiction book club
Science fiction magazine	Science fiction novel	Writing science fiction

.html

In a message dated 7/6/2005 6:30:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

They've got no time for APES right now.  2008, that's the ticket.

 

Good!  I'll have graduated by then. 

I can show 'em how to do it right!

It will be rated R.  R for Rory.

 

 

<.html

.html <.html

I'd like to see the new chapters, please.

On Jul6, 2005, at 7:37 p.m., John wrote:

>>
>> I'd love to talk more about the story but I'll wait till the other
> 15
>> diehards get to see these too.
>>
> Rory? Patrick? Dario? Where is everyone? You guys WANT to see the new
> chapters of the "Within" story. Are you guys elsewhere arguing bout
> timelines again? Trekkies.

In my own smart-ass way I believe I've already asked to see these.
Uh, can I please see the next chapters of within. Thanks. That would
be great. You crikey sayin',kangaroo humpin',down under,vegimite
eating Aussie bastards! ;D
I love you guys.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> You should see the next 12 chapters of WITHIN!!!
>
> But hey, no one is asking for it, so...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of John
> Sent: Wednesday, 6 July 2005 8:29 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Marvel UK issue 38
>
> For those of us eagerly filling our hardrives with Planet of the
Apes
> comics, Marvel UK issue 38 is now on Hunter's site. I'd like to
again
> thank Greg and Hunter for being so reliable on this....now if we
could
> only get those bastards Neil and Michael to... :)
>
> --

I seem to have missed chapter 40 while my computer was down. Can
someone send it to me, please?

On Jul6, 2005, at 8:55 p.m., Anthony B. McElveen wrote:

> I'd like to see the new chapters, please.
>
> On Jul6, 2005, at 7:37 p.m., John wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> I'd love to talk more about the story but I'll wait till the other
>>>
>> 15
>>
>>> diehards get to see these too.
>>>
>>>
>> Rory? Patrick? Dario? Where is everyone? You guys WANT to see the new
>> chapters of the "Within" story. Are you guys elsewhere arguing bout
>> timelines again? Trekkies.
>>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

.html

In a message dated 7/6/2005 8:57:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, abmac@... writes:

I'd like to see the new chapters, please.

 

Me me me . . .

<.html

.html

In a message dated 7/6/2005 10:25:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, abmac@... writes:

I seem to have missed chapter 40 while my computer was down. Can 
someone send it to me, please?

 

40?  When was that? 

Send me that one as well please.

 

<.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "John" <DrZaiusDavis@a...> wrote:

> In my own smart-ass way I believe I've already asked to see these.

Uh, can I please see the next chapters of within. Thanks. That would
be great. You crikey sayin',kangaroo humpin',down under,vegimite
eating Aussie bastards! ;D

-- Hey! Crikey, I may hump kangaroos and be a complete bastard but
don't you dare call me an Aussie!!!! ;-)

Neil

.html Hope our friends in London are safe. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Elaine<.html

.html I could use a dose of Within right now! Elaine<.html

You guys KNOW I want to see them !!! Please.....?

Tim



--- John <DrZaiusDavis@...> wrote:

> In my own smart-ass way I believe I've already asked
> to see these.
> Uh, can I please see the next chapters of within.
> Thanks. That would
> be great. You crikey sayin',kangaroo humpin',down
> under,vegimite
> eating Aussie bastards! ;D
> I love you guys.
>
>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty"
> <whitty@c...> wrote:
> > You should see the next 12 chapters of WITHIN!!!
> >
> > But hey, no one is asking for it, so...
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of John
> > Sent: Wednesday, 6 July 2005 8:29 PM
> > To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [PotaDG] Marvel UK issue 38
> >
> > For those of us eagerly filling our hardrives with
> Planet of the
> Apes
> > comics, Marvel UK issue 38 is now on Hunter's
> site. I'd like to
> again
> > thank Greg and Hunter for being so reliable on
> this....now if we
> could
> > only get those bastards Neil and Michael to... :)
> >
> > --
>
>
>

take a few moments to check this out!!

Tim



School Photo

This really is amazing! Check it out. This website is
amazing - they actually have photographs of almost
every school in the world. Unless you went to school
when cameras weren't invented, you will find a photo
of yourself or at least your classmates.

Click on the link below and enter the name of your
school and year that you were there.

http://www.worldschoolphotographs.com

Mary L. Brennan
bmarylisa@...

Hmmmm.....

I was going to say that this was a bit off topic.
But having seen how it managed to dig up MY photo, I would say that it
meets Planet of the APEs content rules. (and it's even a picture of my
good side. Go figure)

Uncanny how they do it!

Dario

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@...>
Date: Thursday, July 7, 2005 11:16 am
Subject: [PotaDG] This is amazing!

> take a few moments to check this out!!
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> School Photo
>
> This really is amazing! Check it out. This website is
> amazing - they actually have photographs of almost
> every school in the world. Unless you went to school
> when cameras weren't invented, you will find a photo
> of yourself or at least your classmates.
>
> Click on the link below and enter the name of your
> school and year that you were there.
>
> http://www.worldschoolphotographs.com
>
> Mary L. Brennan
> bmarylisa@...
>
>
>

take a few moments to check this out!!

Tim



School Photo

This really is amazing! Check it out. This website is
amazing - they actually have photographs of almost
every school in the world. Unless you went to school
when cameras weren't invented, you will find a photo
of yourself or at least your classmates.

Click on the link below and enter the name of your
school and year that you were there.

http://www.worldschoolphotographs.com

Mary L. Brennan
bmarylisa@...


Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

Yep, I'm here and yeah I'd like to see the new strip.

While I do read some of the timeline threads here, I'm one of those
people who just acknowledges that they are all screwy and that there
is no real answer to all the questions they evoke, so I don't fret
about them.

I've learned to enjoy POTA just for what it is. Start thinking about
it too much and you're liable to get a headache. Just my philosophy.

When I'm not actively participating here, it's simply because I'm
overwhelmed with work/wife/kid (not necessarily in that order). I'm
practically down to 'lurker' status in the other groups.

Dario

----- Original Message -----
From: John <DrZaiusDavis@...>
Date: Wednesday, July 6, 2005 8:37 pm
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Within the POTA #41

>
> >
> > I'd love to talk more about the story but I'll wait till the
> other
> 15
> > diehards get to see these too.
> >
> >
> Rory? Patrick? Dario? Where is everyone? You guys WANT to see the
> new
> chapters of the "Within" story. Are you guys elsewhere arguing
> bout
> timelines again? Trekkies.
>
>
>

.html

In a message dated 7/7/2005 12:06:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time, darios@... writes:

I've learned to enjoy POTA just for what it is. Start thinking about
it too much and you're liable to get a headache.

 

Or go nuts.  Right Patrick?

 

 

<.html

May I see the next chapter too? Thank you.

Melinda

.html <.html

I thought there had to be some kind of catch but that was pretty
amazing.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
> WOW - that's a photo of ME!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 1:16 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Spam Alert: [PotaDG] This is amazing!
>
> take a few moments to check this out!!
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> School Photo
>
> This really is amazing! Check it out. This website is
> amazing - they actually have photographs of almost
> every school in the world. Unless you went to school
> when cameras weren't invented, you will find a photo
> of yourself or at least your classmates.
>
> Click on the link below and enter the name of your
> school and year that you were there.
>
> http://www.worldschoolphotographs.com
>
> Mary L. Brennan
> bmarylisa@a...
>
>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , LordTZer0@A... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/6/2005 3:37:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> By "Eventus Stultorum Magister", do you mean something like "As a
> result, a Teacher of Fools"?
>
>
>
> It's a classic Latin quote, or so I'm lead to believe in Tombstone.
> I did the translation for the Latin duel between Doc Holiday and
> Johnny Ringo on the IMDB. Which wasn't easy, since I can't
> speak Latin. But I was surprised no one else had done it.
> And the translations on the Tombstone site were less than
> satisfactory. But I wanted to know not only what they were
> saying. Just like I wanted to know what "I'm your Huckleberry"
> means. And all the other vernacular. "Skin that smoke wagon!"
> What a great line. I watch that movie just for the colorful

language.

> But from the research I've done it literally means, Events are
>
> the teachers of fools. Meaning Fools must learn by experience.
> You can check the memorable quotes section for my full translation.
> It'd be nice to get a critique from some one who actually studied
> the language. I think I captured the gist of the exchange.

*** The trouble with languages like Latin (and Greek) is that the
endings of the words denote if they're Nouns or Adjectives, or Verbs
or Adverbs, and all that (English, I think, is easier to learn than
Latin or Greek because the only different forms of most words are
singular-plural -- TWO forms -- as opposed to TEN forms, 5 singular
forms for each case, 5 plural).

The English phrase "Events are the teachers of fools" would need to
have Nominative Plural forms for "events" and "teachers" -- and the
plural of eventus is eventi, the plural of magister being magistri (I
think, but I ain't 100% positive). The words "of fools" would be
Genitive Plural, stultorum (also Masculine, to agree with the
masculine words eventus, -i, and magister, -tri. So, it should
probably be translated "Eventi stultorum magistri" (the word "are"
not being needed, really, since it's implied.

Ain't Latin fun?

Trivia buffs may be intrigued to know that the famous Latin phrase
found on the $ bill -- "E pluribus unum" is actually wrong. It should
be "Ex pluribus unum": "Out of the Many, One". The word SHOULD
be "ex" rather than "e"... but then the phrase would have 14 letters
in it, rather than 13, and the guys who made that the motto wanted it
to have the same symbolic number as there were original States in the
Union. The first flag had 13 stars and 13 stripes. There are 13
courses of masonry on the pyramid of the Great Seal on the dollar
bill, etc etc. For all the bad luck that the number 13 seemed to
have, the Founders seem to have embraced the number and made it
distinctly American.

Hmmm.... how to make this an on-topic POTA post... Here we go!

The Statue of Liberty has the date of the Founding of America
engraved on the tablet in her left arm: JULY IV MDCCLXXVI. No POTA
chronology should neglect to have this date included in it.

Patrick

.html <.html

.html

In a message dated 7/7/2005 5:04:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

So, it should
probably be translated "Eventi stultorum magistri"

Perhaps the writer's Latin was as bad as mine.

Either that or he felt Johnny Ringo shouldn't be

too educated.

 

 

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of taebokitti@...
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:57 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] terrorist attacks

Hope our friends in London are safe. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Elaine

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of taebokitti@...
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:02 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Within 41

I could use a dose of Within right now! Elaine

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Melinda G Kettler
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:02 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] RE: Within the POTA #41

May I see the next chapter too?  Thank you.

Melinda

.html

In a message dated 7/7/2005 5:04:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

TWO forms -- as opposed to TEN forms, 5 singular
forms for each case, 5 plural

Japanese has no plurals except for personal pronouns.

they do however have about a million different counters

depending what you're counting; long things, flat things,

large animals, small animals, birds, people, etc . . . etc

which often changes as you go through the numbers of

things you're counting. Example: the counter for minutes,

which is different from hours or months BTW, in hun,

except for 1, 3, 4, 6, & 10 when it's pun.  And the

counter for buildings is always ken, except for 3

buildings when it's gen.  Don't get me started on te form.

 

 

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:46 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Ursus on the way

In a message dated 7/7/2005 5:04:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

TWO forms -- as opposed to TEN forms, 5 singular
forms for each case, 5 plural

Japanese has no plurals except for personal pronouns.

they do however have about a million different counters

depending what you're counting; long things, flat things,

large animals, small animals, birds, people, etc . . . etc

which often changes as you go through the numbers of

things you're counting. Example: the counter for minutes,

which is different from hours or months BTW, in hun,

except for 1, 3, 4, 6, & 10 when it's pun.  And the

counter for buildings is always ken, except for 3

buildings when it's gen.  Don't get me started on te form.

<.html

Excellent.....a lot happening all at
once......suspense building ...a good last
note.........Thank you guys for continuing this.....It
is much appreciated .....

Oh and Neil,.....I framed my Beware the Neast poster
today....looks great!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim

I would appreicate any one nominating me to be the next to receive the
new Within Strip!!! PLEASE?????

.html Wow, you do have much going on here. Those mutants are really at it. I find myself feeling sorry for the apes. Elaine<.html

.html

In a message dated 7/7/2005 9:25:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, JLKINSER1970@... writes:

I would appreicate any one nominating me to be the next to receive the
new Within Strip!!! PLEASE?????

 

Tag!  You're it!

 

 

<.html

Attachments :

.html

Chapter # 41

 

<.html

.html
-- <.html

.html

Oops!  I meant to send it direct

Hope I didn't violate protocol.

 

<.html

.html
-- <.html

.html.html In a message dated 7/7/2005 11:52:48 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

No that's fine T, I appreciate the effort.

At least I got to see some of the newer strips this way...<.html <.html

.html

In a message dated 7/7/2005 11:52:22 P.M. Central Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

No that's fine T, I appreciate the effort.

Just trying to pay it forward and

I got caught up in the moment.

I still haven seen that movie though.

 

<.html

.html <.html

.html <.html

.html

In a message dated 7/5/2005 7:17:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time, darios@... writes:

Just wanted to say that I managed to find a copy of his 'diary' book a
few months ago and eagerly started looking for his POTA notes. I was
quite disappointed in that there really wasn't to much there and
nothing beyond a few facts. I would have thought that there would be
more.

Yeah, it seems to not have been that big a deal to him.

Kim's book has more than he does, and pictures too.

Does anyone know fir Roddy wrote a biography?

I know he took lots of pictures.

 

<.html

I would like to enquire about the newest chapters of Within the
Planet of the Apes. I love the Comic.

Donna

.html
-- <.html

.html

May I see the latest chapter of Within. This may be last one I may see before I go out to San Diego for the con. 

<.html

.html
-- <.html

Finally the apprentice is revealed. It was so long ago that we were all
trying to figure out who he could be (practically from the first strip)
that I no longer recall who if anyone guessed correctly. (Notice I'm not
saying who here so as not to spoil it for those who have not read the
latest strip).

Thanks guys!

Dario

That's Kim's cookbook/biography right?

I never did run across any Roddy biographies which is a bit a surprise
and also too bad as I would have thought that his bio would be very
entertaining since he did so much during his long career. His many
appearances on early TV series (eg Twilight Zone), the horror movies,
the Disney pics, and all the guest appearances he made. Would have made
fascinating reading.

I haven't even botherered with to read anything other than the POTA
references in Heston's book.

Dario

LordTZer0@... wrote:

> In a message dated 7/5/2005 7:17:57 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> darios@... writes:
>
> Just wanted to say that I managed to find a copy of his 'diary'
> book a
> few months ago and eagerly started looking for his POTA notes. I was
> quite disappointed in that there really wasn't to much there and
> nothing beyond a few facts. I would have thought that there would be
> more.
>
> Yeah, it seems to not have been that big a deal to him.
> Kim's book has more than he does, and pictures too.
> Does anyone know fir Roddy wrote a biography?
> I know he took lots of pictures.
>

.html

In a message dated 7/8/2005 8:35:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

In Escape, Z&C are telling the humans about the ape revolution!

Where did they gain that knowledge?

 

Zaius became a close friend after he busted them.

He obviously shared some of the terrible secrets

that only someone who is both the Minister for

Science as well as the Chief Defender of the Faith

is privy to.  It's the only way they could have known.

And he did seem awfully chummy at their house,

though they were keeping a secret or two from him.

 

<.html

.html

In a message dated 7/8/2005 9:30:12 P.M. Central Daylight Time, darios@... writes:

That's Kim's cookbook/biography right?

I never did run across any Roddy biographies which is a bit a surprise
and also too bad as I would have thought that his bio would be very
entertaining since he did so much during his long career.

That's the one.

Roddy does have 3 books listed,

but being a shutterbug, their all

picture books of celebs.  There

is a HTML bio of him available

for download, for six bucks.

 

Amazon.com: e-Books & Docs: Contemporary Authors : Biography - McDowall, Roddy

 

 

<.html

Attachments :

.html
-- <.html

.html
-- <.html

.html.html In a message dated 7/8/2005 8:35:17 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

In Escape, Z&C are telling the humans about the ape revolution!

Where did they gain that knowledge?


You could maybe guess that since Zaius knew that he unearthed the past, he let him in on "The Truth"... In ESCAPE, Cornelius does say that as a historian he had access to Scrolls which were kept secret from the masses...<.html <.html

As Tim Roth said, everyone wanted to do POTA2001 because they wanted to
work with Burton. And I can see why (going in). He's never been the greatest
storyteller, but his visuals are unique and he (usually) can do what he
wants because the studios don't understand his appeal anyway. But with his
huge budgets (Batman, POTA) he seems to get timid and inTIM idated. We'll
see how it goes with "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" this week. It cost
$150 million, which I think is more than POTA2001.
Giamatti and Michael Clarke Duncan were the biggest POTA fans among the
actors, and Tim Roth said the original "has a place in history". - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
To: <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 11:42 PM
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Giamatti on "Apes"


> The impression I got is that Giamatti considers "PLANET" (1968) to be a
> satire, predominantly, rather than a mere sci-fi film. Hence, his
> reference to Jonathan Swift. "PLANET" is both Satire and Sci-Fi, but
> predominantly Satire. They could've told the same basic satirical story
> in a magical Fantasy kind of story, where the Protagonist is magically
> transported to a "land of talking apes" (our Future) by some wizard...
> but the "science fiction" elements helped to set up the premise in such
> a way as to be somewhat more believable. Relativistic "time dilation"
> at near-light velocities, etc etc.
>
> I'll say this about Giamatti: he jumped at the chance to play an ape --
> to endure all those hours of elaborate make-ups that drove some actors
> bonkers (Sal Mineo, and the dude who played the Minister in "BENEATH",
> Thomas Gomez). As an actor, he figured it would be a challenge to bring
> the appliances to life, and all that. Reminds me of James Gregory's
> attitude -- as opposed to that of Orson Welles -- regarding being made-
> up to play Ursus (a role Orson turned down). I admire Giamatti for
> being willing to do something that a vain actor wouldn't do (and here
> I'm thinking of Wahlberg and his insistence on wearing more than a mere
> loincloth, as Heston was reduced to: for his Dirk Diggler role he was
> willing to do things -- and wear 'things' -- to make "BOOGIE NIGHTS" a
> great picture... so why be a prima donna on the POTA2K production?).
>
> I only wish Giamatti (and the other actors) would've refused to do the
> film on the grounds that the script sucked ass. Maybe the idiots who
> green-lighted it would've realized that they're right, and postponed
> the shooting of it until they had a script worthy of being filmed.
>
> Patrick
>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@y...> wrote:
> > Rory...I think he meant just a good sci fi film in
> > general......
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --- Haristas@a... wrote:
> > > What does he mean "If you're going to remake that movie, let alone
> a good science-fiction film"? Is Giamatti implying that PLANET is a bad
> SF film? I don't think he meant to imply that, but it sure sounds like
> it. I'm beginning to dislike this guy, "alot"!
> > >
> > > At least he knows POTA2001 SUCKS!
> > >
> > > -- Rory
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Marky Mark should be in the remake of "The Poseidon Adventure". Oh, too
late! He was already in "The Perfect Storm". And he wouldn't wear swim
trunks. Or read the script. - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil" <nfoster@...>
To: <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 4:35 PM
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Special Edition Apes DVD's


> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@a... wrote:
> > I just realized that Fox is currently shooting a remake of THE
> POSEIDON ADVENTURE with Kurt Russell.
>
> -- Great just what the world needs- another bloody remake! Ah well, I
> bet the computer special effects will be wonderful...
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 10:50 AM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Giant Leap

In a message dated 7/8/2005 8:35:17 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

In Escape, Z&C are telling the humans about the ape revolution!

Where did they gain that knowledge?

You could maybe guess that since Zaius knew that he unearthed the past, he let him in on "The Truth"... In ESCAPE, Cornelius does say that as a historian he had access to Scrolls which were kept secret from the masses...

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In a message dated 7/9/2005 2:12:18 A.M. Central Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

Is it a BIO or a HOMO?  J

I dunno,and I'm not going to pay six buck to find out either.

I'll leave that to the Roddy fans.  Personally I think the guy

over acts.

 

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In a message dated 7/9/2005 2:14:33 A.M. Central Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

Yeah I was also worried about how he went from wanting them executed to being a buddy.

 

He wasn't that much of a buddy.  I mean, sure it's lonely at the top,

being the guardian of the terrible secret and all.  And since they no

part of it, he may as well tell them rest.  It was probably part of the

plea bargain deal.  They can't tell anyone else.  That's why he says

if he doesn't return from the Forbidden Zone then the future is in their

hands, so think well before you act!  But you can bet they told Milo!

They must be thinking history has a way of repeating itself, or they

never would have gotten on that spaceship.  But . . . .

 

They must not have been totally buddy buddy with Zaius.  I'm sure

they didn't tell him they told Milo, or that Milo's expeditions into the

Forbidden Zone had yielded Taylor's Spacecraft.  Because they sure

didn't tell him about Brent, or Nova.  They didn't trust him completely.

 

 

 

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In a message dated 7/9/2005 12:50:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:

You could maybe guess that since Zaius knew that he unearthed the past, he let him in on "The Truth"... In ESCAPE, Cornelius does say that as a historian he had access to Scrolls which were kept secret from the masses...

 

Yeah, you have to make that assumption.

They sure weren't going to let him be an

archeologist anymore.  And Milo's trips

to the Zone were probably covert.

 

 

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I think he's a bit star struck as well.

He's intimidated by them, so he lets

them do what they want.  Probably

why his movies are so hit & miss.

 

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In a message dated 7/9/2005 2:38:47 P.M. Central Daylight Time, LordTZer0@... writes:

But . . . .

 

They must not have been totally buddy buddy with Zaius.  I'm sure

they didn't tell him they told Milo, or that Milo's expeditions into the

Forbidden Zone had yielded Taylor's Spacecraft.  Because they sure

didn't tell him about Brent, or Nova.  They didn't trust him completely

Just making sure everyone saw the second paragraph.  The way it

cuts off in the small window you might think that's the end of the post.

 

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--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , <veetus@e...> wrote:

> I think Zauis just came clean with C& Z after "Planet" (or at

least gave them enough to think so) and dropped the charges for their
silence. He certainly keeps his eye on them during "Beneath" ("Keep
your friends close and your enemies closer"). Though it's odd he seems
to leave them in charge in his absence.

-- Let's not forget that Zaius' position may have been under some
threat as well. He has Ursus gaining ever more power and influence and
someone must have been held responsible for the 'escape' of the
talking human, something I'm sure the rest of the ruling class must
have been very angry about.
He would probably (like most besieged politicians) be looking to
gather new 'friends' around himself and as C & Z already knew so much
why not make it them?

Neil

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--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:

> We can explain it yes, but it really is another big mess isn't it?

-- Well that's the beauty of it isn't it. It allows us to make up our
own stories to bridge the gaps and try to explain the inconsistancies
and I for one think that is a good thing.
I'm always happy to allow a little 'creative licence' and imagination
to help out.

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , LordTZer0@A... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/7/2005 12:06:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> darios@n... writes:
>
> I've learned to enjoy POTA just for what it is. Start thinking

about it too much and you're liable to get a headache.

>
>
>
> Or go nuts. Right Patrick?

-------------------------------------------------------------

*** Nothing clears up a headache like unflubbing a flub. When I found
a way to explain ALL the various EARTH-TIME chronometer readings from
the movies and TV show, in one comprehensive overall scenario, it was
a Eureka moment. Details that (of course) began as mere mistakes
began to take on an air of meaningfulness. There's a REASON that
Taylor's ship had an EARTH-TIME reading of 11-25-3978 on it, even
though the true date was 3955... and it's the same reason that
Virdon's ship had two divergent EARTH-TIME readings on it (i.e. the
Timewarp began on 8-19-1980 and ended on 7-14-3085... but clicked
BACKWARDS to the date 3-21-3085 when they zipped the 4.34 lightyears
from Alpha Centauri back to Earth).

Taylor's ship wound up back on Earth, too... and his clock was the
only one of the bunch that failed to register the back-through-time
passage from their Orion destination 320 lightyears to Earth.

But both Taylor's ("mother-") ship and Virdon's ship -- when the
Automatic Homing Device is activated -- traveled at the SAME rate of
speed. Virdon's ship had been stuck in a forward-moving Timewarp
until 7-14-3085, and then Jonesy activated the Automatic Homing
Device, and they somehow jumped back 115 days of EARTH-TIME, so that
the clock ended up with the date 3-21-3085 on it... and the gorillas
smashed up the cockpit's computers that very day, so that the next
day (when Virdon and Burke see it) that date is 'frozen' onto it,
just as it is STILL frozen in place over a week later, when Virdon
retrieves the Magnetic Flight Recorder disc.

4.34 lightyears per 115 "retrodays". That's the velocity Virdon's
ship travels at. That's equivalent to 1 lightyear per 26.497696
retrodays.

Multiply that rate of velocity by the number of lightyears Taylor's
crew had to go in order to get back to Earth ALL the way from their
destination -- 320 lightyears -- and you get 8479.2627 retrodays.

Divide 8479.2627 retrodays by 365.24219 days-per-year, and you get
23.215452 retroyears.

Subtract 23.215452 years from 11-25-3978, and you find the ACTUAL
date of Taylor's landing... and it's in the summer of 3955.

The headache of Dehn's flubbed "3955" date... and the headache of the
two opposing "3085" dates given in the pilot TV episode... those two
headaches are both cleared up.

Virdon's ship had an EARTH-TIME reading of 7-14-3085 at the moment
when Jonesy hit the button that activated the Automatic Homing
Device... and then their ship's warpfield kicked into gear, so to
speak, and 'jumped' them out of the dangerous time-warping location
in the Alpha Centauri system all the way back to Earth at a CONSTANT
velocity: DISTANCE (in lightyears) divided by TIME (in "retro"-time,
backwards through EARTH-TIME).

Thus, when their ship popped back into Space (after zipping through
some sort of 'hyperspace'), in the vicinity of Earth, their EARTH-
TIME clock -- somehow having been programmed to adjust for this
phenomenon -- clicked BACKWARDS 115 days of EARTH-TIME, so that the
true date would appear on the cockpit chronometer: 3-21-3085.

Taylor's group of ANSA vessels (three shuttles accompanying one
Command ship -- or, "mothership") all had their EARTH-TIME clocks
reading 11-25-3978 when they were at their destination in Orion, 320
lightyears away from Earth.

And then SOMEBODY activated the Automatic Homing Device on the
Command ship, so that all (but one) of the ANSA shuttles' cockpit
computers -- under the control of the Main computer of the Command
ship -- knew to click backwards at the rate of 26.497696 retrodays
per lightyear. For some reason, Taylor's damaged shuttle had its
CommandShip-to-Shuttle computer link severed prior to the activation
of the Automatic Homing Device... so that his shuttle's onboard
computer didn't know that a warpfield had been generated around the
Command ship and all its shuttles, and thus did not register the
change in EARTH-TIME that accompanied the quick trip back to Earth --
and it is for this very reason that Taylor falsely assumes that he
and Landon and Dodge are on that "unnamed planet in orbit around a
star in the constellation of Orion" rather than back on Earth, or
someplace else.

Also, for that reason, Brent -- who expected to be awoken at a
destination 320 lightyears from Earth late in the year 3978 -- thinks
he's on an unknown planet other than the Orion destination they'd
been heading to... because the clock reads 3955 instead of 3978. He
must think they stopped warping along towards their destination,
stopping short-of-the-mark. They've only traveled 1,983 EARTH-TIME
years (from 1972 to 3955), rather than 2,006 EARTH-TIME years (from
1972 to 3978), which is 98.85344% of the way, or 316.33 lightyears
instead of the full 320 lightyears. Brent doesn't know what planet he
and Skipper landed on, and he doesn't know it's Earth -- he can only
assume that they are 316.33 lightyears away from Earth and about 3.66
lightyears short-of-the-mark of the star system they were headed for.

If Virdon ever finds an ANSA flight-recorder-disc computer, then
he'll see exactly WHERE his ship was at every moment during their
flight from Earth to Alpha Centauri through the Timewarp and back to
Earth. He'll realize, then, that his ship has already gone backwards
through Time once -- during the 'jump' from Alpha Centauri to Earth,
when the Automatic Homing Device was controlling the ship's
navigational functions. This will give him the ability to know how
to "reverse the process and get back home again": Time-Travel to the
Past is POSSIBLE, he'll know -- because they've already done it once.

All they need is to get an ANSA ship within the vicinity of a
spacetime-warping zone (like the one they encountered at Alpha
Centauri), and then PURPOSELY travel at that same rate of 1 lightyear
per 26.497696 retrodays. If they can somehow travel the equivalent of
15,355 lightyears at that rate of "retro" Time, they'll be able to go
backwards through Time, from 3085 or so all the way back to the time
when their ship first left Earth, in 1971 (my scenario).

They may have to fly loop-de-loops around the solar system, perhaps
watching out their windows as the planets orbiting the Sun go
backwards along their orbital paths (for example, if they can see the
Outer planets from their Sun-orbiting path, they'll see Jupiter
retrace 1,295 orbits... Saturn retrace 522 orbits... Uranus retrace
183 orbits... Neptune retrace almost 94 orbits... and Pluto retrace
almost 62 orbits).

But if they can maintain such a flight under those conditions, then
they CAN go backwards from 3085 -- all the way back to the moment
when their ship left Earth (though they won't be able to interact
with their 'other selves', those younger versions that have not aged
through the same SHIP-TIME that they've experienced).

Virdon CAN get back to Sally and Chris... IF they can find a computer
that can interpret the ANSA flight recorder disc, and IF they can fly
an ANSA ship (or one with the same technical capabilities) through a
known zone of warped SpaceTime. It can be done... if Urko doesn't
find 'em and kill 'em first.

And... who knows? Maybe the Dogs and Cats will die from a plague
brought back by "one of the astronauts"... Maybe Virdon and/or Burke
is the plague-infected astronaut who unwittingly brings (back) to
Earth (from its Future) the virus that kills off Rover and Tabby and
all the other beloved canines and felines of the world. Wouldn't that
be something...

Patrick

P.S. I know full well that what cures MY headaches is a cause of
headaches in (some) others!

.html.html In a message dated 7/10/05 12:16:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, taebokitti@... writes:

In Escape, Z&C are telling the humans about the ape revolution!

Where did they gain that knowledge?

Zaius became a close friend after he busted them.


This, which we really don't know for sure, is another idiocy of Dehn's.  I can't imagine, knowing the Zaius from PLANET as well as I do, that Cornelius and Zira would have gone back to Ape City -- or some other Ape city or village (They must have had more that one city!) -- to anything other than wrecked careers and jail time!

Of course, Patrick would disagree with me, but that's because -- I write with great disdain -- Patrick is a complete "Dehnophile"!

Patrick.....

Boulle, Serling and Wilson wouldn't have given Dehn the correct time!

And obviously they didn't BECAUSE HE GOT THE YEAR 3978 WRONG!!!!

HA! HA! HA!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 7/10/05 1:59:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nfoster@... writes:

Well that's the beauty of it isn't it. It allows us to make up our
own stories to bridge the gaps and try to explain the inconsistancies
and I for one think that is a good thing.

I sure as hell don't appreciate it!

DOWN WITH PATRICK!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 7/10/05 10:38:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

*** Nothing clears up a headache like unflubbing a flub. When I found
a way to explain ALL the various EARTH-TIME chronometer readings from
the movies and TV show, in one comprehensive overall scenario, it was
a Eureka moment.

You didn't "find" a way, Patrick -- you've made it up!

You're a flub that needs unflubbing!

Somebody throw a net over this guy already!

-- Rory<.html <.html

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http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/570462/ref=amb_right-1_10157201_5/103-8693529-1044657



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--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:

> I haven't though this completely through, BUT that's why we have
> discussion groups right?
>
> At the end of Planet, Cornelius is digging artefacts and has no idea
> that humans were first.
>
> In Escape, Z&C are telling the humans about the ape revolution!
>
> Where did they gain that knowledge?
>
> Michael

------------------------------------------------------------

*** Cornelius told Hasslein (et al.) that it was in his capacity "as
an archaeologist" that he had access to history scrolls that were
kept secret from the masses.

At issue is not only WHERE Cornelius (and, perhaps through him, Zira)
got his information, but WHEN he got it. Did he know it when Brent
showed up with Nova, after Ursus' speech? Or did he acquire that
information AFTER that moment, yet BEFORE he and Zira made their way
with Milo to the ANSA ship on their seaboard?

In my scenario, Zaius has found it necessary to be lenient with Zira
and Cornelius (and Lucius, to some degree, too) because politically
things have changed for the worse: Ursus, using the "incident" of the
12th Scout to acquire the Emergency Executive Powers to go on his
rampage of conquest. Zaius, in his own way, is trying to preserve his
own culture (a culture Cornelius still has an affinity for, as
evidenced by his polite refusal to accompany Taylor and Nova on their
journey along the shoreline to wherever it might lead: "His [Zaius's]
culture is our culture."). Zaius is trying to save the Future, too:
Lucius asks "Why must Knowledge stand still? What about the Future?!"
and he replies, "I may just have saved it for you."

Ursus' militarism is a threat to the Future of their simian
civilization far worse than that posed by Cornelius and Zira. Zaius
buys their Silence regarding the "Terrible Secret" with leniency
regarding the charges brought against them at the Hearing. He buys it
with the only currency he has to offer: private confirmation of
Cornelius' archaeological findings.

However... Zaius must have wanted Cornelius to know not only that Man
did indeed have a 'superior' technological civilization... but that
Man destroyed himself with it. Zaius would want these chimps, in
their truce, to understand his justification for the harshness of his
treatment of Landon... and Taylor... and them. He had a reason to do
what he did -- and, as he said, he took no pleasure in doing what he
felt he had to do, for the sake of the Future. His motives were
honest, Cornelius comes to believe.

But WHEN does Cornelius finally get to read those "Secret Scrolls"?
Had he already read them before he meets Brent? Or is it after Brent
leaves to find Taylor that he finally gets to read them?

In my scenario, Zaius had forced Cornelius to divert his academic
career from Archaology (his college "major") to Psychology (his
college "minor" -- a minor he took, primarily, so that he could be in
some of the same classes as Zira, whom he wanted to get to 'know'
better, if you know what I mean...). So, Cornelius and Zira watch
Zaius trotting alongside Ursus on their way to the Forbidden Zone
with the Army... and then Cornelius eventually sighs and goes in for
work.

Will he ever be able to publish his findings from his two illegal
forays into the Forbidden Zone? Zaius refuses to allow him to do
that, for reasons of State Security. His ground-breaking new Paradigm
of world history will never become the much-ballyhoo'd eye-opener for
others as it was for him...

He goes in to work, and he notices a package in his mail niche. It's
addressed to Cornelius, Doctor of Archaeology... and it's from Zaius.

Before Zaius left with Ursus, perhaps suspecting that he might not
make it back, he had left in Cornelius' care the "Secret Scrolls"
that had been in his possession.

Before Milo shows up and INSISTS that he and Zira accompany him to
the site of his AMAZING discovery (the last of the ANSA shuttles),
Cornelius has his chance to read through those old scrolls. Perhaps
he actually handles scrolls that are literally almost two thousand
years old. Or, perhaps Zaius has transcribed their contents into his
own private journal -- the originals might be so fragile that they'll
crumble into dust if handled.

All the 'scriptures' that served Apes before the "SACRED SCROLLS"
rendered them non-canonical and heretical... banned and burned...
they are all there for Cornelius to peruse and compare.

Perhaps he reads scrolls written by poet-historians who are
commissioned by gorilla aristocrats from the 24th Century (for
instance), in which the story of Origins is told in such a way as to
condemn the Human-tolerating doctrines favored by Caesar and to
whitewash the role of Aldo -- perhaps to excuse his First Murder, to
find it justifiable in some way. Perhaps to imply that Caesar had
sent his son to SPY on Aldo, after Aldo and the gorillas had left the
Council -- to be replaced by Humans. Perhaps such a Pro-Gorilla
version of history -- told after-the-fact of Chimpanzees experiencing
a downgrade in Ruler status, as Gorillas re-established a dominant
role in Politics -- was written in an attempt to alter the then-
Present perception of historical personages. To vilify Caesar as
a "Saul"-like ruler who lost favor with God because he did the
ungodly thing of re-enfranchising Humans whom God had cursed for
their Sins. By the time of Urko, in 3085, the notion that all
creatures (Ape AND Man) should live and work together as equals is
considered "sacrilege" and "heresy" -- ideas which might "infect" the
other enslaved Humans. Those notions had to have been promulgated
beforehand... in propaganda writings, especially.

Cornelius would have, then, read such a Pro-Gorilla scroll, and he
would've had to compare and contrast various competing
earlier 'scriptures'... He would have to weigh their contents on a
scale of Historical Objectivity, judging whether VARIANT versions of
the SAME historical event are embellishments, based on the biases of
the authors, or reliable as historical 'truth'. It isn't enough to
know that a chimpanzee named Cornelius (the son of Caesar and Lisa)
was the first Ape victim of an Ape killer: the CONTEXT of that
killing would have to be discerned through sifting of various varying
versions of that same episode. Was he an innocent child? Was he a
spy, sent by his father, to spy on the gorilla 'hero', who caught him
and was FORCED to kill him?

The scroll the 'nice' Lawgiver reads to his audience of Chimpanzee,
Orangutan, and Human children was obviously a Pro-Chimpanzee version
of history, as well a a Pro-Orangutan version. There are no Gorilla
children in his audience, however, and it's fair to say that the tale
he tells is NOT a Pro-Gorilla one.

Cornelius would have to sift through the competing versions of
History, to get a feel for what the underlying True version of
history would be, once the biased tellings of that history are
weighed in the balances.

If Cornelius -- in 3955 -- actually read the same story told word-for-
word that that nice Lawgiver told to his audience in 2670, then he
would probably deem it an improbable fiction: God sends to the Earth
an Ape who first frees Apes from enslavement by Humans... then gives
those freed Apes their language... leads them out of a human city
prior to the War that destroys Man's civilization... and ultimately
communes with the 'souls' of his dead, murdered Parents in 'Hell' and
learns that the World will be destroyed in the year 3950, if Gorillas
are allowed to wage their anti-Human violence.

Yeah... right! Cornelius, in 3955, would "see through" that tale, and
deem it to be propaganda on several levels. Even though he, himself,
is a chimpanzee... and might sympathize with a Chimp King who was the
original Savior of Apekind... as an objective historian, he would
have to see that the anti-Gorilla bias in that story shouts out from
the parchment.

It would be all the more apparent if there were competing works of
history told with either a Pro-Gorilla bias, or at least not with an
Anti-Gorilla bias. For all we know, there might be a dozen different
versions of the story told in "CONQUEST" and "BATTLE"... some being
Pro-Caesar, Pro-Chimpanzee, Pro-Orangutan, and Anti-Gorilla... and
others being predominantly Pro-Orangutan... another being rabidly
Anti-Chimp and Pro-Gorilla... a further one trying to placate ALL the
three Ape species, in a propagandistic attempt to reconcile hostile
Ape groups with each other: a "middle ground" that acknowledges
faults in all Apes and virtues in them, too... perhaps diminishing
the stature of some figures (like Caesar) and whitewashing the
reputations of others (like Aldo).

Think of all the different versions of the Arthurian story, when that
baton of invention was passed on to (or, taken up by) one after the
other after the other after the other...

Think of the way that non-Fundamentalist scholars compare and
contrast the Gospels in the New Testament both with each other and
the non-canonical gospels, too. The Gospels tell us a hell of a lot
more about their writers than they do about Jesus, Peter, Pontius
Pilate, Herod, and 'God'!

As a historian, Cornelius would have to judge for himself which
version(s) of Ape History are probably 'true' -- or 'truer' than
others. In 3955, he would probably not believe much if any of the
tale told by the 'nice' Lawgiver in 2670...

... but, after accompanying Milo on that trip back to 1973, Cornelius
would have to re-evaluate that improbable version of Ape History.
Especially that bit about how Caesar's "parent apes" had descended on
Earth from Earth's own Future. After having EXPERIENCED that very
thing, Cornelius would have to consider the possibility -- the
probability -- that that old scroll had been written about events
that Cornelius and Zira were fulfilling at that very moment in time,
in the Autumn of 1973.

Cornelius would know, then, that he and Zira would be "brutally
murdered"... but that their child would survive. It's no wonder that
he tells Zira, "After this, I doubt we shall be allowed to live at
all." Not after Hasslein knows "everything", due to the drug-induced
confession Zira gives them.

Their child would survive, though. And... if that improbable scroll
was right about the "Parent Apes" being Time Travelers from the
Future where they saw the Earth destroyed... it might also be right
about the impending murder of their child's one-day heir, named
Cornelius.

In my scenario, that's the reason that Cornelius goes out-of-his-way
to mention "an ape named ALDO" as being the one that begins the era
of "corporate and militant action" against Mankind. Cornelius does
NOT mention "an ape named CAESAR" -- because, by this time, Cornelius
KNOWS that Caesar is the name that his yet-to-be-born son will
eventually be known by. He doesn't want those humans who deem Apes a
threat to be on the lookout for any "Caesar" ape... but, rather for
an ape named "Aldo". Cornelius, perhaps, hopes that by mentioning
Aldo, he just MIGHT get humans to kill him... which might, then, save
Caesar's son from the death he would suffer at Aldo's instigation.

How would Aldo feel if he knew that his yet-to-happen murder of
Caesar's heir would be written of... and that Caesar's father would
have read that written account, and -- after traveling back through
Time to 1973 -- would then try to manipulate vicious humans into
preventatively assassinating him, the same way that the President
talked of assassinating Hitler when he was innocent, or in the womb?

The name "Aldo" would be a dangerous one for an Ape to have, if those
privy to the knowledge Hasslein acquired were to deem it actionable.
The Terminator targets ANYBODY with the name "Sarah Connor" -- even
those who aren't the one who will bear "John Connor", just to be
thorough and systematic.

The name "Aldo" wouldn't be put on the list of "Banned Ape Names",
even if there were such a list. But if the contents of that
interrogation of Zira and Cornelius are generally kept from the
Public for reasons of National Security, there WOULD be those privy
to the full contents of that interrogation, including the NAMED
identity of the Ape whom Cornelius credits with being the first to
speak -- to refuse, to say "No". I could see a database being kept,
scanning through the names of all registered Apes, and highlighting
all the "Aldos" in the list. At any one moment, there might be a
couple hundred apes with that same name, in a hundred different
places spanning the globe. Perhaps those apes would be watched
closely, just because their owners had given them a name they didn't
know had been mentioned by Cornelius. That messenger chimp being
beaten in "CONQUEST" -- which caused Caesar to yell out "Lousy human
bastards!" -- perhaps he had been under surveillance for some time,
just because he had the name "Aldo".

I can hear T snorin' so I'll stop typing now!

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:

> I haven't though this completely through, BUT that's why we have
> discussion groups right?
>
> At the end of Planet, Cornelius is digging artefacts and has no idea
> that humans were first.
>
> In Escape, Z&C are telling the humans about the ape revolution!
>
> Where did they gain that knowledge?
>
> Michael

------------------------------------------------------------

*** Cornelius told Hasslein (et al.) that it was in his capacity "as
an archaeologist" that he had access to history scrolls that were
kept secret from the masses.

At issue is not only WHERE Cornelius (and, perhaps through him, Zira)
got his information, but WHEN he got it. Did he know it when Brent
showed up with Nova, after Ursus' speech? Or did he acquire that
information AFTER that moment, yet BEFORE he and Zira made their way
with Milo to the ANSA ship on their seaboard?

In my scenario, Zaius has found it necessary to be lenient with Zira
and Cornelius (and Lucius, to some degree, too) because politically
things have changed for the worse: Ursus, using the "incident" of the
12th Scout to acquire the Emergency Executive Powers to go on his
rampage of conquest. Zaius, in his own way, is trying to preserve his
own culture (a culture Cornelius still has an affinity for, as
evidenced by his polite refusal to accompany Taylor and Nova on their
journey along the shoreline to wherever it might lead: "His [Zaius's]
culture is our culture."). Zaius is trying to save the Future, too:
Lucius asks "Why must Knowledge stand still? What about the Future?!"
and he replies, "I may just have saved it for you."

Ursus' militarism is a threat to the Future of their simian
civilization far worse than that posed by Cornelius and Zira. Zaius
buys their Silence regarding the "Terrible Secret" with leniency
regarding the charges brought against them at the Hearing. He buys it
with the only currency he has to offer: private confirmation of
Cornelius' archaeological findings.

However... Zaius must have wanted Cornelius to know not only that Man
did indeed have a 'superior' technological civilization... but that
Man destroyed himself with it. Zaius would want these chimps, in
their truce, to understand his justification for the harshness of his
treatment of Landon... and Taylor... and them. He had a reason to do
what he did -- and, as he said, he took no pleasure in doing what he
felt he had to do, for the sake of the Future. His motives were
honest, Cornelius comes to believe.

But WHEN does Cornelius finally get to read those "Secret Scrolls"?
Had he already read them before he meets Brent? Or is it after Brent
leaves to find Taylor that he finally gets to read them?

In my scenario, Zaius had forced Cornelius to divert his academic
career from Archaology (his college "major") to Psychology (his
college "minor" -- a minor he took, primarily, so that he could be in
some of the same classes as Zira, whom he wanted to get to 'know'
better, if you know what I mean...). So, Cornelius and Zira watch
Zaius trotting alongside Ursus on their way to the Forbidden Zone
with the Army... and then Cornelius eventually sighs and goes in for
work.

Will he ever be able to publish his findings from his two illegal
forays into the Forbidden Zone? Zaius refuses to allow him to do
that, for reasons of State Security. His ground-breaking new Paradigm
of world history will never become the much-ballyhoo'd eye-opener for
others as it was for him...

He goes in to work, and he notices a package in his mail niche. It's
addressed to Cornelius, Doctor of Archaeology... and it's from Zaius.

Before Zaius left with Ursus, perhaps suspecting that he might not
make it back, he had left in Cornelius' care the "Secret Scrolls"
that had been in his possession.

Before Milo shows up and INSISTS that he and Zira accompany him to
the site of his AMAZING discovery (the last of the ANSA shuttles),
Cornelius has his chance to read through those old scrolls. Perhaps
he actually handles scrolls that are literally almost two thousand
years old. Or, perhaps Zaius has transcribed their contents into his
own private journal -- the originals might be so fragile that they'll
crumble into dust if handled.

All the 'scriptures' that served Apes before the "SACRED SCROLLS"
rendered them non-canonical and heretical... banned and burned...
they are all there for Cornelius to peruse and compare.

Perhaps he reads scrolls written by poet-historians who are
commissioned by gorilla aristocrats from the 24th Century (for
instance), in which the story of Origins is told in such a way as to
condemn the Human-tolerating doctrines favored by Caesar and to
whitewash the role of Aldo -- perhaps to excuse his First Murder, to
find it justifiable in some way. Perhaps to imply that Caesar had
sent his son to SPY on Aldo, after Aldo and the gorillas had left the
Council -- to be replaced by Humans. Perhaps such a Pro-Gorilla
version of history -- told after-the-fact of Chimpanzees experiencing
a downgrade in Ruler status, as Gorillas re-established a dominant
role in Politics -- was written in an attempt to alter the then-
Present perception of historical personages. To vilify Caesar as
a "Saul"-like ruler who lost favor with God because he did the
ungodly thing of re-enfranchising Humans whom God had cursed for
their Sins. By the time of Urko, in 3085, the notion that all
creatures (Ape AND Man) should live and work together as equals is
considered "sacrilege" and "heresy" -- ideas which might "infect" the
other enslaved Humans. Those notions had to have been promulgated
beforehand... in propaganda writings, especially.

Cornelius would have, then, read such a Pro-Gorilla scroll, and he
would've had to compare and contrast various competing
earlier 'scriptures'... He would have to weigh their contents on a
scale of Historical Objectivity, judging whether VARIANT versions of
the SAME historical event are embellishments, based on the biases of
the authors, or reliable as historical 'truth'. It isn't enough to
know that a chimpanzee named Cornelius (the son of Caesar and Lisa)
was the first Ape victim of an Ape killer: the CONTEXT of that
killing would have to be discerned through sifting of various varying
versions of that same episode. Was he an innocent child? Was he a
spy, sent by his father, to spy on the gorilla 'hero', who caught him
and was FORCED to kill him?

The scroll the 'nice' Lawgiver reads to his audience of Chimpanzee,
Orangutan, and Human children was obviously a Pro-Chimpanzee version
of history, as well a a Pro-Orangutan version. There are no Gorilla
children in his audience, however, and it's fair to say that the tale
he tells is NOT a Pro-Gorilla one.

Cornelius would have to sift through the competing versions of
History, to get a feel for what the underlying True version of
history would be, once the biased tellings of that history are
weighed in the balances.

If Cornelius -- in 3955 -- actually read the same story told word-for-
word that that nice Lawgiver told to his audience in 2670, then he
would probably deem it an improbable fiction: God sends to the Earth
an Ape who first frees Apes from enslavement by Humans... then gives
those freed Apes their language... leads them out of a human city
prior to the War that destroys Man's civilization... and ultimately
communes with the 'souls' of his dead, murdered Parents in 'Hell' and
learns that the World will be destroyed in the year 3950, if Gorillas
are allowed to wage their anti-Human violence.

Yeah... right! Cornelius, in 3955, would "see through" that tale, and
deem it to be propaganda on several levels. Even though he, himself,
is a chimpanzee... and might sympathize with a Chimp King who was the
original Savior of Apekind... as an objective historian, he would
have to see that the anti-Gorilla bias in that story shouts out from
the parchment.

It would be all the more apparent if there were competing works of
history told with either a Pro-Gorilla bias, or at least not with an
Anti-Gorilla bias. For all we know, there might be a dozen different
versions of the story told in "CONQUEST" and "BATTLE"... some being
Pro-Caesar, Pro-Chimpanzee, Pro-Orangutan, and Anti-Gorilla... and
others being predominantly Pro-Orangutan... another being rabidly
Anti-Chimp and Pro-Gorilla... a further one trying to placate ALL the
three Ape species, in a propagandistic attempt to reconcile hostile
Ape groups with each other: a "middle ground" that acknowledges
faults in all Apes and virtues in them, too... perhaps diminishing
the stature of some figures (like Caesar) and whitewashing the
reputations of others (like Aldo).

Think of all the different versions of the Arthurian story, when that
baton of invention was passed on to (or, taken up by) one after the
other after the other after the other...

Think of the way that non-Fundamentalist scholars compare and
contrast the Gospels in the New Testament both with each other and
the non-canonical gospels, too. The Gospels tell us a hell of a lot
more about their writers than they do about Jesus, Peter, Pontius
Pilate, Herod, and 'God'!

As a historian, Cornelius would have to judge for himself which
version(s) of Ape History are probably 'true' -- or 'truer' than
others. In 3955, he would probably not believe much if any of the
tale told by the 'nice' Lawgiver in 2670...

... but, after accompanying Milo on that trip back to 1973, Cornelius
would have to re-evaluate that improbable version of Ape History.
Especially that bit about how Caesar's "parent apes" had descended on
Earth from Earth's own Future. After having EXPERIENCED that very
thing, Cornelius would have to consider the possibility -- the
probability -- that that old scroll had been written about events
that Cornelius and Zira were fulfilling at that very moment in time,
in the Autumn of 1973.

Cornelius would know, then, that he and Zira would be "brutally
murdered"... but that their child would survive. It's no wonder that
he tells Zira, "After this, I doubt we shall be allowed to live at
all." Not after Hasslein knows "everything", due to the drug-induced
confession Zira gives them.

Their child would survive, though. And... if that improbable scroll
was right about the "Parent Apes" being Time Travelers from the
Future where they saw the Earth destroyed... it might also be right
about the impending murder of their child's one-day heir, named
Cornelius.

In my scenario, that's the reason that Cornelius goes out-of-his-way
to mention "an ape named ALDO" as being the one that begins the era
of "corporate and militant action" against Mankind. Cornelius does
NOT mention "an ape named CAESAR" -- because, by this time, Cornelius
KNOWS that Caesar is the name that his yet-to-be-born son will
eventually be known by. He doesn't want those humans who deem Apes a
threat to be on the lookout for any "Caesar" ape... but, rather for
an ape named "Aldo". Cornelius, perhaps, hopes that by mentioning
Aldo, he just MIGHT get humans to kill him... which might, then, save
Caesar's son from the death he would suffer at Aldo's instigation.

How would Aldo feel if he knew that his yet-to-happen murder of
Caesar's heir would be written of... and that Caesar's father would
have read that written account, and -- after traveling back through
Time to 1973 -- would then try to manipulate vicious humans into
preventatively assassinating him, the same way that the President
talked of assassinating Hitler when he was innocent, or in the womb?

The name "Aldo" would be a dangerous one for an Ape to have, if those
privy to the knowledge Hasslein acquired were to deem it actionable.
The Terminator targets ANYBODY with the name "Sarah Connor" -- even
those who aren't the one who will bear "John Connor", just to be
thorough and systematic.

The name "Aldo" wouldn't be put on the list of "Banned Ape Names",
even if there were such a list. But if the contents of that
interrogation of Zira and Cornelius are generally kept from the
Public for reasons of National Security, there WOULD be those privy
to the full contents of that interrogation, including the NAMED
identity of the Ape whom Cornelius credits with being the first to
speak -- to refuse, to say "No". I could see a database being kept,
scanning through the names of all registered Apes, and highlighting
all the "Aldos" in the list. At any one moment, there might be a
couple hundred apes with that same name, in a hundred different
places spanning the globe. Perhaps those apes would be watched
closely, just because their owners had given them a name they didn't
know had been mentioned by Cornelius. That messenger chimp being
beaten in "CONQUEST" -- which caused Caesar to yell out "Lousy human
bastards!" -- perhaps he had been under surveillance for some time,
just because he had the name "Aldo".

I can hear T snorin' so I'll stop typing now!

Patrick

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I usually save your posts for later Pat.

Much later.  Reading them gives me a

headache.  Maybe I should print them

out a curl up in bed with them if I can't

sleep, but I couldn't afford all that ink

and paper.  Couldn't you cut a word

here and a sentence there or maybe

a paragraph or two?  They're too long.

I can't wait for your book so I can put

it up on the self and not read it instead.

 

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In a message dated 7/10/2005 11:09:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

I can hear T snorin' so I'll stop typing now!

I only snorin' 'cause you're borin'.

 

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In a message dated 7/10/2005 11:09:14 A.M. Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

I can hear T snorin' so I'll stop typing now!

Or maybe you're interesting, I don't know

because you're posts are too long to read.

Either you ARE the world's fastest typist,

or, and this is more likely, you have no life.

Maybe I'm wrong, since you only seem to

answer once a week.  It must take that

long to write up and edit your replies.

 

 

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               Zaius couldn't execute Zira and Cornelius because when Taylor tried to escape from Ape City he was seen by many of the citizens of the city and Zaius couldn't kill them because to some of the apes especially from the chimpanzee community may have believe that both Cornelius and Zira may have been telling the truth and Lucius was also sowing seeds of discontent with the younger chimps and some orangutans with talk of the talking human.

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Really. I'd hate to see what the hell Patrick WOULD come up with if he
thought it through. We gotta get this guy laid. :)

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> I usually save your posts for later Pat.
> Much later. Reading them gives me a
> headache. Maybe I should print them
> out a curl up in bed with them if I can't
> sleep, but I couldn't afford all that ink
> and paper. Couldn't you cut a word
> here and a sentence there or maybe
> a paragraph or two? They're too long.
> I can't wait for your book so I can put
> it up on the self and not read it instead.

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Or that maybe Zauis may have saw that Ursus might have been a threat to his rule over Ape City and showed  Cornelius and Zira the scrolls that might have told the reason about the ape revolution to try and counter Ursus rise to power.  But to me raises an interesting question. Was the ape revolution actually led by an ape or was it cause by some sympatheic humans who knew about the past history of human slavery and  taught the apes to revolt. But when the scrolls were written by the Lawgiver, he might have left that part out because of the hatred towards the human race.

 

What do you think about my theory?

Kevin 

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Not trying to start any flame wars here.

I do like Pat's Posts.  They are very

well thought out, if not through.  But

when he takes all week to post a

reply that will take me a month

to find the time to wade through . . .

Well, I just have to remark about

it.  Maybe they just aren't for me.

Don't take this wrong Patrick, but

if only for the sake of group harmony

I may have to round file them from

now on. Because by the time I

got through them it would no

longer be topical.  Sorry Pal.

 

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of PofTAfan@...
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:26 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Giant Leap

Or that maybe Zauis may have saw that Ursus might have been a threat to his rule over Ape City and showed  Cornelius and Zira the scrolls that might have told the reason about the ape revolution to try and counter Ursus rise to power.  But to me raises an interesting question. Was the ape revolution actually led by an ape or was it cause by some sympatheic humans who knew about the past history of human slavery and  taught the apes to revolt. But when the scrolls were written by the Lawgiver, he might have left that part out because of the hatred towards the human race.

 

What do you think about my theory?

Kevin

 

<.html

I enjoy Rory and Patricks rants between each other. If not the epic
posts that lead to them. I didn't mean anything earlier. You guys are
all O.K. in my book. It's those damn Popular Peoples Front that I
can't stand. SPLITTER's!!!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> Not trying to start any flame wars here.
> I do like Pat's Posts. They are very
> well thought out, if not through. But
> when he takes all week to post a
> reply that will take me a month
> to find the time to wade through . . .
> Well, I just have to remark about
> it. Maybe they just aren't for me.
> Don't take this wrong Patrick, but
> if only for the sake of group harmony
> I may have to round file them from
> now on. Because by the time I
> got through them it would no
> longer be topical. Sorry Pal.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of John
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:34 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Reminder

I enjoy Rory and Patricks rants between each other. If not the epic
posts that lead to them. I didn't mean anything earlier. You guys are
all O.K. in my book. It's those damn Popular Peoples Front that I
can't stand. SPLITTER's!!!



--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> Not trying to start any flame wars here.
> I do like Pat's Posts.  They are very
> well thought out, if not through.  But
> when he takes all week to post a
> reply that will take me a month
> to find the time to wade through . . .
> Well, I just have to remark about
> it.  Maybe they just aren't for me.
> Don't take this wrong Patrick, but
> if only for the sake of group harmony
> I may have to round file them from
> now on. Because by the time I
> got through them it would no
> longer be topical.  Sorry Pal.

<.html

.html.html In a message dated 7/10/2005 7:33:12 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

Did Taylor ever explain to them that it was HIS earth they were on?
 

No, he never said anything like that to them... He went off into the Forbidden Zone, saw the Statue and realized it himself, but he never turned back to tell them what he concluded... After he made his discovery, he just kept wandering...

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In a message dated 7/10/2005 7:34:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

I enjoy Rory and Patricks rants between each other. If not the epic
posts that lead to them. I didn't mean anything earlier. You guys are
all O.K. in my book. It's those damn Popular Peoples Front that I
can't stand. SPLITTER's!!!

 

Well when Neil starts posting reminders of the rules,

well . . . lets just say a word to the wise is sufficient.

 

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:47 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Giant Leap

In a message dated 7/10/2005 7:33:12 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

Did Taylor ever explain to them that it was HIS earth they were on?
 

No, he never said anything like that to them... He went off into the Forbidden Zone, saw the Statue and realized it himself, but he never turned back to tell them what he concluded... After he made his discovery, he just kept wandering...

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:50 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Reminder

In a message dated 7/10/2005 7:34:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

I enjoy Rory and Patricks rants between each other. If not the epic
posts that lead to them. I didn't mean anything earlier. You guys are
all O.K. in my book. It's those damn Popular Peoples Front that I
can't stand. SPLITTER's!!!

 

Well when Neil starts posting reminders of the rules,

well . . . lets just say a word to the wise is sufficient.

<.html

.html.html In a message dated 7/10/2005 7:52:39 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

So how the hell did Z&C and Milo know?

It was all written out for them by Dehn...<.html <.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 11:02 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Giant Leap

In a message dated 7/10/2005 7:52:39 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

So how the hell did Z&C and Milo know?

It was all written out for them by Dehn...

<.html

.html.html In a message dated 7/10/2005 8:17:58 PM Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

You know, as much as I like the fact that he kept the series alive, he should have just done a prequel and shown the ape uprising...there was no real need for Escape......as good a movie as it is.

They should have had someone else take over after BENEATH...<.html <.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 7/10/2005 7:33:12 PM Central Standard Time,
> Michael.Whitty@d... writes:
>
> > Did Taylor ever explain to them that it was HIS earth they were on?
> >
> >
>
> No, he never said anything like that to them... He went off into the
> Forbidden Zone, saw the Statue and realized it himself, but he never

turned back to

> tell them what he concluded... After he made his discovery, he just

kept
wandering...


Well in my story Taylor goes back to tell Zira about his terrible
discovery and then Zira and Cornelius come to understand that Dr.
Zaius was right in trying to protect there society from this menance
of man. They then stone Taylor and Nova who flee back into the
Forbidden Zone. Zira and Cornelius then go to Zaius and explain that
they are fully aware of man's destructive nature and beg for his
forgivness which Zaius grants, creating a bond between the three of
them unlike any in the ape hierarchy. Then blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
blah .

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah bla blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
Blah blah blah blah blah blah .

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Take this Rory! You
know what? I can see why he does it. This is is a whole lot of fun.
Come on. Everybody try it.

.html.html In a message dated 7/10/2005 8:47:31 PM Central Standard Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Take this Rory! You
know what? I can see why he does it

Patrick is the one with all the scenarios...

<.html <.html

>
> Patrick is the one with all the scenarios...

Not ALL of them. Hehe. Now that I see how much fun it is to F#$k with
the ape storyline, I think I'll complete the entire Apes saga into one
continuous clusterf#$k of a ramble and send it to Rory for editing. :)

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of John
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 12:25 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Giant Leap

>
> Patrick is the one with all the scenarios...

Not ALL of them. Hehe. Now that I see how much fun it is to F#$k with
the ape storyline, I think I'll complete the entire Apes saga into one
continuous clusterf#$k of a ramble and send it to Rory for editing. :)

<.html

.html <.html

While you're at it, get me laid too! - - - Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <DrZaiusDavis@...>
To: <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 5:13 PM
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: What cured my headaches


> Really. I'd hate to see what the hell Patrick WOULD come up with if he
> thought it through. We gotta get this guy laid. :)
>
>
>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@A... wrote:
> > I usually save your posts for later Pat.
> > Much later. Reading them gives me a
> > headache. Maybe I should print them
> > out a curl up in bed with them if I can't
> > sleep, but I couldn't afford all that ink
> > and paper. Couldn't you cut a word
> > here and a sentence there or maybe
> > a paragraph or two? They're too long.
> > I can't wait for your book so I can put
> > it up on the self and not read it instead.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: PofTAfan@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 5:26 PM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Giant Leap

Or that maybe Zauis may have saw that Ursus might have been a threat to his rule over Ape City and showed  Cornelius and Zira the scrolls that might have told the reason about the ape revolution to try and counter Ursus rise to power.  But to me raises an interesting question. Was the ape revolution actually led by an ape or was it cause by some sympatheic humans who knew about the past history of human slavery and  taught the apes to revolt. But when the scrolls were written by the Lawgiver, he might have left that part out because of the hatred towards the human race.

 

What do you think about my theory?

Kevin 

SPONSORED LINKS

Fantasy science fiction	Science fiction books	Science fiction book club
Science fiction magazine	Science fiction novel	Writing science fiction

<.html

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----- Original Message -----

From: Whitty, Michael

To: 'PotaDG@yahoogroups.com'

Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 5:33 PM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Re: Giant Leap

It contains the seeds of some very interesting back stories.

 

However I think the answer to my original question is that Dehn wanted to describe tye revolution in Escape so he needed Z&C to know about it.

 

Did Taylor ever explain to them that it was HIS earth they were on?

 

If not, how did they know they were in the past?

 

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of PofTAfan@...
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:26 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Giant Leap

Or that maybe Zauis may have saw that Ursus might have been a threat to his rule over Ape City and showed  Cornelius and Zira the scrolls that might have told the reason about the ape revolution to try and counter Ursus rise to power.  But to me raises an interesting question. Was the ape revolution actually led by an ape or was it cause by some sympatheic humans who knew about the past history of human slavery and  taught the apes to revolt. But when the scrolls were written by the Lawgiver, he might have left that part out because of the hatred towards the human race.

 

What do you think about my theory?

Kevin

 

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