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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of PofTAfan@...
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:12 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] New Chapter of WITHIN

              I think Milo would have been executed for heresy and the ship would have been destroyed. Other than that, the latest chapter of WITHIN is excellent!!

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of PofTAfan@...
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:12 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] New Chapter of WITHIN

              I think Milo would have been executed for heresy and the ship would have been destroyed. Other than that, the latest chapter of WITHIN is excellent!!

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In a message dated 12/4/2005 9:37:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

I surprised Patrick hasn't come up with one of his own "theories" that Zaius allowed Cornelius to explore parts of the Forbidden Zone on purpose in order to increase his own knowledge of the area. 

 

At first I thought Zaius just wanted Cornelius to poke around the edge of

the Zone hoping he would feel he had done some meaningful work with-

out accomplishing anything.  But now I think that Zaius was sending

him one a clean up mission without him knowing it.  He know that

his theories were dangerous.  And anything he found out there to

support those theories doubly so.  This way he could clean the

Zone of any proof and pronounce it as worthless.  Then Taylor

came along and furnished him with an excuse to charge him

with heresy.  Then he could ruin his career completely.  As

far as travel permits go, Cornelius may have only needed

one to cross into the Forbidden Zone, hence the name.

 

 

 

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 12:07 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Special Permission...

As far as travel permits go, Cornelius may have only needed one to cross into the Forbidden Zone, hence the name.

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.html.html In a message dated 12/4/2005 5:46:14 PM Central Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

We do not know that about gorilla and orangutan females. The male writers just neglected to mention them.

And what are they? Doctors and Lawyers, and Owners of small businesses? Those liberated female Gorillas and Orangutans can do everything can't they?

The Ape Society is a patriarchy, and chimp females were just starting to break out and fight for their liberation, and that's because they're from the more liberally minded group of society. The Gorillas and Orangutans are far more conservative, probably to the point of extremism... And a group of extremists isn't about to allow any drastic changes in their traditions...

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.html.html In a message dated 12/4/2005 5:51:20 PM Central Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

LT, big words and now you are philosophizing

T has always been a philosopher... Problem is/was that he is misunderstood...

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In a message dated 12/4/2005 2:16:35 P.M. Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

I think "the Seeds of Landon" would make a great PORN movie

 

That or some sort of D & D Game.

 

Quest For the Seeds of Landon

 

 

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In a message dated 12/4/2005 5:51:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

  I am so proud of you LT, big words and now you are philosophizing. Elaine

 

That's worse than Michael saying if I can be polite than anyone can!

Why is everyone on my case?

 

 

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In a message dated 12/4/2005 6:16:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, PofTAfan@... writes:

              I think Milo would have been executed for heresy and the ship would have been destroyed. Other than that, the latest chapter of WITHIN is excellent!!

 

I think with the trail of Z & C so much in the public eye, Milo was

able to fly under the radar, so to speak, of official scrutiny.

 

 

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In a message dated 12/4/2005 6:50:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

Don't know why but I see Milo as a mysterious fellow with a LOT of secrets.

 

If anyone could pull of a salvage of this magnitude and not

had anyone fid out about it, it would be Milo.  After all,

the guy IS a genius.  He wouldn't have been much of

one if he couldn't do that.  I doubt he just found the

owners manual to the Icarus in the glove box.

 

 

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In a message dated 12/4/2005 7:56:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

T has always been a philosopher... Problem is/was that he is misunderstood...

 

Thank you!

 

My humor is so advanced that society has not 

progressed far enough for most to get the jokes.

 

 

 

 

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It's a damned good thing that the POTA series has all

these plot holes to give us something to talk about.

 

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:17 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Within the Planet of the Apes strip #31

In a message dated 12/4/2005 5:51:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

  I am so proud of you LT, big words and now you are philosophizing. Elaine

 

That's worse than Michael saying if I can be polite than anyone can!

Why is everyone on my case?

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:24 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] New Chapter of WITHIN

In a message dated 12/4/2005 6:50:46 P.M. Central Standard Time, Michael.Whitty@... writes:

Don't know why but I see Milo as a mysterious fellow with a LOT of secrets.

 

If anyone could pull of a salvage of this magnitude and not

had anyone fid out about it, it would be Milo.  After all,

the guy IS a genius.  He wouldn't have been much of

one if he couldn't do that.  I doubt he just found the

owners manual to the Icarus in the glove box.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 1:30 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Within the Planet of the Apes strip #31

In a message dated 12/4/2005 7:56:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

T has always been a philosopher... Problem is/was that he is misunderstood...

 

Thank you!

 

My humor is so advanced that society has not 

progressed far enough for most to get the jokes.

 

 

 

 

Agreed with the topic, this is a very cool panel... I like the way the Mutant text is in the octagon boxes, and the drawings of Mendez, Onogoro, and Caspay are really good...

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 2:47 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] ANOTHER New Chapter of WITHIN! I love this one......

Catching up on e-mail now that the in-laws have left and I find another two Within strips. Both are excellent, but I particularly agree that the likenesses of the mutants are outstanding.

 

Greg

mlccougar@... wrote:

Agreed with the topic, this is a very cool panel... I like the way the Mutant text is in the octagon boxes, and the drawings of Mendez, Onogoro, and Caspay are really good...

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 2:45 PM
To: potadg@yahoogroups.com; pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] DVD re-releases

Just saw the following posted on The Digital Bits:

 

By the way, it looks like 20th Century Fox is working on new single-disc releases of all of the classic Planet of the Apes movies. No word yet on whether they'll be remastered, or include any extras, but look for at least Beneath the Planet of the Apes, Battle for the Planet of the Apes and Conquest of Planet of the Apes on 3/28.

 

Here's the link: http://www.digitalbits.com/#mytwocents

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.html.html In a message dated 12/4/2005 9:45:21 PM Central Standard Time, urko3085@... writes:

No word yet on whether they'll be remastered, or include any extras, but look for at least Beneath the Planet of the Apes, Battle for the Planet of the Apes and Conquest of Planet of the Apes on 3/28.

This sounds very interesting... Hopefully (but highly doubtful) they will have at least some of the extra we've wanted... Weird though that they're not doing ESCAPE...

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--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Whitty, Michael" <Michael.Whitty@d...>
wrote:

> The whole page looks rather outstanding too - one of my

favourites......

>
> Hey Neil - did you upload the whole page!??!?!

-- Nope sorry. I tried but Yahoo won't let me at the moment for some
reason.

Neil

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I would have think that the chimpanzee community would have been watched more closely by the organutangs and the gorillas because of the trials of Zira, Cornelius and Dr. Galen.

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.html.html In a message dated 12/5/2005 12:39:01 AM Central Standard Time, PofTAfan@... writes:

I would have think that the chimpanzee community would have been watched more closely by the organutangs and the gorillas because of the trials of Zira, Cornelius and Dr. Galen.

They never really say anything about Dr. Galen being tried for anything though...

True, he was accused along with Zira of creating "the speaking monster," but they never said that he was actually charged with anything... Maybe he was just named as an accessory to the crime, but never brought up on charges...<.html <.html

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In a message dated 12/5/2005 12:42:52 A.M. Central Standard Time, mlccougar@... writes:

Maybe he was just named as an accessory to the crime, but never brought up on charges...

 

Not that they needed proof to convict, but since he was her subordinate

perhaps he had to direct culpability. As the department head she was

responsible.  Since he was little more than a vet under her direction

they couldn't make any charges stick.  Apes have to obey orders. 

 

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----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 1:42 AM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Story - LANDON

In a message dated 12/3/2005 7:05:35 PM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

       

It seems implied that he was lobotomised because he spoke – however I guess he could have been unconscious when he went down and stayed unconscious…..

 

Exactly... He was lobotomised because he spoke... It's that story I'd like to see explored... What happened when he first spoke? Was he in a cart with other humans and started to speak, only to be seperated out and brought before the autorities... There's a story there, but I meant I just don't see it going beyond a single issue of the comic...

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--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@a... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 12/4/2005 11:07:37 AM Central Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> > *** Irrelevant. Stewart DIDN'T survive the crash, so Dehn's line is
> > right not to include "three friends" and sticks with just two.
>
> No, not irrelevant... Taylor more than likely would have told Zira

and Cornelius that there was indeed a third shipmate on board, and they
would have known about her death... So, why didn't Zira/Cornelius say
anything to Brent regarding her: Because Paul Dehn didn't check his
continuity...
---------------------------------------------------------------

*** Yes, it IS irrelevant. When Cornelius told Brent about
Taylor's "two friends" it was in the context of how Zira had so helped
Taylor that he escaped the fate shared by Dodge and Landon -- he didn't
end up stuffed in the Zaius Museum -- i.e. he didn't wind up a victim
of gorilla brutality.

Dodge was shot and killed during the Hunt, and his corpse ends up
stuffed and mounted in the Great Hall of the Zaius Museum.

Landon was lobotomized, eventually died (and PERHAPS had been
euthanized by Zira and/or Cornelius -- my speculation, but see below
for my REVISED speculations regarding Landon's death...), and he too
ended up being "a stuffed specimen" in the Museum.

Both of these two humans ended up in the Museum -- where Taylor, too,
would've been put (Cornelius implies) if it had not been for Zira.

Stewart not only died before ANY of the astronauts encountered the Ape
civilization -- and, hence, was never in any danger of being killed by
gorillas, let alone stuffed and put into the Museum -- and Taylor
himself was able to put her death behind him pretty damn quick. After
one horrified glance at her shriveled corpse in the hibernation bunk,
he was distracted by the water breach and the sinking of the ship. When
Landon, on the beach of Dead Lake, asks "I was thinking of Stewart...
what do you suppose happened?", Taylor emotionlessly replies, "Air
leak. She died in her sleep."

"You don't seem very cut-up about it."

"It's a little late for a wake. She's been dead nearly a year."

Thus, Taylor evinces no solemn, mournful emotions at the death of
Stewart. Not all that surprising from a man who -- as Landon says --
"despised people".

If Taylor DID tell Cornelius and Zira about Stewart, he would have told
them that they all went into an "artificial hibernation" period that
lasted a year, and that the gizmo malfunctioned, killing her in her
sleep. And, when the ship sank, it took her corpse with it, down to the
bottom of the lake.

Why would Cornelius mention this to Brent, assuming he had been told
this by Taylor? The whole point of this part in the conversation he's
having with Brent is to WARN him about the dangers that Taylor faced
and that he will soon be facing. Cornelius knows that Landon must have
been able to talk just like Taylor -- and THAT is why Zaius had had him
lobotomized (and Cornelius must believe that Zaius is lying when he
claimed "... but the beast could not speak, of course... nor will he
ever speak..."). If Landon were still alive, Cornelius would've told
Brent that if not for Zira, Taylor would've been either lobotomized
like his 'surviving' friend or killed, stuffed, and mounted as an
exhibit in the Museum, like the friend who hadn't survived the Hunt.

Just after this, Cornelius warns Brent that IF he is captured by the
gorillas, he must NEVER SPEAK.

"What the hell would I have to say to a gorilla?"

"But you don't understand -- only Apes can speak! If they catch you
speaking, they will DISSECT you and they will KILL you, IN THAT ORDER."

Ya catch that? Here's my REVISED speculation regarding how Landon died.
Cornelius seems to be stating explicitly that if the gorillas caught
Brent speaking they would do to him what they had the opportunity to do
TO ONLY ONE HUMAN IN RECENT HISTORY: what they did to Landon. They
FIRST dissected him -- the lobotomy being a kind of dissection, a
surgical procedure involving cutting into a LIVING human being. And
then, after committing this atrocity, they KILLED him. Perhaps
the "fine veterinary surgeon" mentioned by Zaius was, in fact, a
gorilla. I suspect that most POTA fans would assume that the one who
lobotomized Landon was an orangutan, but Zaius never specifies which
type of Ape it was. Hunters tend to know not only how to aim at, shoot,
and kill a game animal, but also how to 'dress' it -- how to 'process'
the corpse (draining the blood out... 'cleaning' it out... all that
icky stuff). I could easily see a POTA gorilla having the veterinary
skills necessary to deal with humans -- vets also have to know how
to 'put down' an animal, remember.

How many other talking humans, other than Landon, are around that
Cornelius can reference, regarding this policy of the gorillas? The
only other way I can see that the line could make plausible sense is if
Cornelius has recently found out something he heretofore hadn't known
about the gorillas. Perhaps... just perhaps, now... perhaps there is
an 'elite' team of gorillas who know the same things that Zaius knows
about the Past, and share his fear-and-hatred of the human race. Their
job, then, throughout the centuries, has been to seek out groups of
humans and ascertain whether or not they are the mute 'animal'
creatures that the Ape masses expect them to be, or if they are
INTELLIGENT and able to speak. And IF they should come across ANY human
who is not a mute beast, their policy is to TORTURE and KILL them. The
torture would involve CUTTING into them ("... they will DISSECT
you...") -- perhaps cutting out their tongues. And then, because their
purpose is to terrify the humans so much that they acquire the
intractable fear to utter vocalizations ever again, they kill
the 'dissected' human.

Thus, there MIGHT be an elite group of gorillas who are permitted to
travel out to 'hunt'-zones and cull-the-herds of humans, all the while
keeping an eye out for any human that is DIFFERENT from the mute beasts
every other ape is familiar with.

Thus, if Cornelius has since become aware of such a group of elite
gorilla human-hunters, he would think to warn Brent about them,
pointing out their policy of Dissect-then-Kill any talking human.

Perhaps the group of gorillas who shoot Dodge, club Landon, shoot
Taylor, and bring 'em all back to Ape City was this very elite group.
In other words, they aren't just a bunch of good-ol'-boys out having
fun on a hunt... they're a MILITARY SQUAD engaged in a military assault.

There's a hint of this in "ESCAPE". When Zira, under the influence of
sodium pentothal, mentions how gorillas hunted humans for sport AND
USED SOME OF THEM FOR TARGET PRACTICE, we are shown a clip
from "PLANET" -- the very clip where Dodge is shot during the Hunt
scene.

Was the shooting of Dodge not only the act of a hunter, but that of a
soldier, using him for target practice? The Hunt itself has the feel of
a military assault. The gorillas act as a team, flushing out the game
in a coordinated effort to capture some humans and to purposely kill
others. This isn't one gorilla dad and his gorilla son goin' out with
their rifles to hunt some humans and bond as father-and-son... this
seems to be a skirmish.

If there is such a group of elite gorillas, perhaps it is a group of
TWELVE soldiers, almost a Round-Table's-worth, with Ursus as their
Arthur-figure (not a King, but a "dux bellorum", a warlord, as Arthur
was originally referred to as). These gorillas -- unlike any other ape
in their society -- would have the task of patrolling the border of the
Forbidden Zone, in case any intelligent humans were to come out of it
(perhaps from a hypothetical jungle beyond the Zone), and dealing with
any such dangerous human that they might encounter. And THIS group of
twelve gorillas would then be the "scouts" that Ursus eventually sent
into the Forbidden Zone -- perhaps in response to the very public
revelation that ONE human, Taylor, can speak. Taylor had been captured
in the "green area" near the border of the Forbidden Zone, so it would
seem reasonable for the gorillas to assume that he had come from out of
the Forbidden Zone. Thus, Ursus would have the authority (especially
under a state of Martial Law) to send out the gorillas into the
Forbidden Zone and to scout it out for any more 'dangerous' humans.

But not ALL gorillas would be 'in' on the secret. When Mendez XXVI
says "This is the instrument of my god", one of the gorilla soldiers
Ursus had ordered to "Arrest that creature" is shocked and
exclaims, "He can speak!" Most of the gorillas would be simple
soldiers; only the elite group would have the special knowledge about
the Past.

Perhaps the group of gorillas that accompanied Zaius into the Forbidden
Zone to chase after Cornelius, Zira, Lucius, and Taylor & Nova was this
same elite group of 12 gorillas.

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@a... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 12/4/2005 4:57:09 AM Central Standard Time,
> whitty@c... writes:
>
> > he MUST have had a MOTHER!
>
> If you read my post, you'll see I did say: "So unless you mean his

father and mother (or any siblings he may have had) do yourself a
favor, forget the Taylor family idea..."

>
> I didn't forget his parents, but I have no doubt that what MR

comics would be planning would involve a Mrs. George Taylor and
brood...

*** There can't be a "Mrs. George Taylor" because Taylor told Nova --
during his soliloquy prior to the Tribunal session -- that back on
Earth "there were women... lots of women... lots of 'love-making' but
no love... that was the kind of world we'd made, so I left it...
BECAUSE THERE WAS NOBODY TO HOLD ME THERE..."

Oh, we could get cynical here. Perhaps Taylor had once been married,
and had grown to hate his wife, for any number of reasons. Maybe she
cheated on him, with one of his astronaut buddies. Maybe she cheated
on him with ALL of his 'friends'... and he found out how much of a
whore she was. So he divorces her... spends a brief time trying to
find a 'good' woman, but ultimately despairs of ever finding one,
having come to view all women as tainted with his ex's ignominy.

Thus, hating his ex for cheating on him... and hating all his former
friends, who jumped at the chance to cuckold him... Taylor is driven
into misanthropic overdrive. He feels that he can't trust anybody
ever again -- not a wife, not his 'friends', not anybody. It's no
wonder that he's -- as Heston described him -- a lonely, embittered
man. He wasn't BORN bitter, he BECAME bitter because of formative
influences.

Perhaps one such influence that formed his misanthropic state-of-mind
was a cheatin' wife. For all we know, Taylor divorced a woman who had
also borne a child that he believes isn't even his, since she's
whored around with other men in HIS bed...

So... Taylor MAY have had some 'family' left behind... but if so, he
so hated them that their existence in the Here-and-Now wasn't enough
to keep him on terra firma.

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , <veetus@e...> wrote:

>
> Yeah, and what happened to the apes that heard Landon speak? Did

they become activists like Cornelius and Zira? - - - Jeff

*** The only apes that might've heard Landon speak are the gorillas who
hunted him down in the first place. And the gorillas seemed to all be
gung ho on the side of Ursus during his Speech before the Citizens'
Council. We never see any apes other than chimpanzees protesting (both
during his speech and in-the-way of the Army as it prepares to leave
Ape City for the Forbidden Zone).

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@a... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 12/4/2005 11:07:37 AM Central Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> > *** NONE of the astronauts are referenced in "ESCAPE". The

President refers to the three APE-ONAUTS who splashed down the day
before, mentioning that one of the three had been killed at the zoo.
He's talking about the three apes, NOT about any of Taylor's crew.

>
> They say about a ship with three bodies on board, and those three

bodies on board are thought (by the authorities) to be Taylor, Dodge,
and Landon... The same way he only had three astronauts from the
Taylor ship known in BENEATH, he carried it over to ESCAPE...

-----------------------------------------------------------

*** How do YOU know what the authorities thought?! Are you a mind-
reader, like the fleshy-headed mutants in the Forbidden Zone?

The President refers to THREE living beings having been on the ship,
knowing -- before he tells the Joint Chiefs in the Oval Office with
him -- that those 3 are apes. They ASSUME the three are human
astronauts, which is why General Faulkner asks, "What would
astronauts be doing in a zoo, Mister President?" The President
replies, "They are NOT astronauts, General Faulkner -- they are apes.
Chimpanzees, to be precise" etc.

Having said this, he's made it clear to them that NONE of the human
astronauts was on the ship that landed the day before. Never
in "ESCAPE" does any character mention Landon or Dodge or Stewart or
go into any discussion regarding the number of astronauts that were
on Taylor's mission.

The script and the novelization both have Hasslein refer
to "Lieutenant Dodge" during the sodium pentothal scene, when Zira
tells about the black-skinned human that had been put into the
museum. Incidentally, this bit is NOT in the actual film, so it is
only speculation as to the 'canonical' reason why Dodge had been put
in the Museum. Perhaps he WAS put there because of his skin color.
Perhaps not. There was no sign visible in his display, pointing out
his 'unique' skin color.

The "three astronauts from the Taylor ship known in BENEATH" you
mention have no bearing on this at all. My previous post explains why
Cornelius mentions only Taylor and "his two friends" -- Taylor
escaped the fate of the other two, CAPTURE-and-DEATH at the hands of
the gorillas. Even if Cornelius had been told about the dead female
astronaut, she had died over a year earlier (actually, nearly 1300
years earlier, according to EARTH-TIME), in her sleep; she was never
in any danger of being Dissected and Killed (in that order) by any
nasty gorillas, which is what Cornelius was WARNING Brent of.

Come to think of it, Cornelius never specifies the genders of
Taylor's "two friends" -- for all Brent knows, Stewart may have been
one of the two spoken of. WE know that the two were the other males
on the ship, Dodge and Landon. But BRENT doesn't know that.

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, <veetus@e...> wrote:
>
>   Yeah, and what happened to the apes that heard Landon speak? Did
they become activists like Cornelius and Zira? - - - Jeff

*** The only apes that might've heard Landon speak are the gorillas who
hunted him down in the first place. And the gorillas seemed to all be
gung ho on the side of Ursus during his Speech before the Citizens'
Council. We never see any apes other than chimpanzees protesting (both
during his speech and in-the-way of the Army as it prepares to leave
Ape City for the Forbidden Zone).

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@a... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 12/4/2005 11:07:37 AM Central Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@y... writes:
>
> > And no where in "BENEATH" (or "PLANET" for that matter) is there

any sign accompanying the Museum display ["A Human Who Spoke"]. Dodge
was put in the Museum with no reference to him being capable of
speech or being intelligent -- he was just another human animal
amongst a plethora of exhibits featuring Humans-in-the-wild.

>
> Dodge is NOT the astronaut in question here, Landon IS... Dodge was

stuffed of course because of his (to the apes) unique skin color...
That is OBVIOUS... And as such, he was not "just another human
animal" he was a UNIQUE human animal... How many other black humans
did you see in the hunt? I seen none...

*** If it is 'obvious' to you, it is probably because there's a bit
in Dehn's screenplay (scene 79) that goes like this:

HASSLEIN scribbles a note, which he hands to:

E.1. "Did you stimulate Colonel Taylor's speech centers?"

ZIRA (irritated mutter) "Of course not. He could talk already."

Exhausted after her euphoria, she doesn't realize what she has
admitted. The three MEN do and react strongly. But the object of
pentothal is to lull the patient into truth.

E.1. (offhand) "Colonel Taylor had colleagues..."

ZIRA "Oh, yes. There was one who ... somehow ... died before we found
out he could talk. He possessed a unique skin. We had it stuffed and
put in our museum. Like the gorilla I saw in yours."

E.1. "A unique...?"

ZIRA "... skin." (a beat) "It was black."

We CUT IN ghoulish FLASH from APES 1: stuffed NEGRO ASTRONAUT with
milky glass eyes in Ape City's museum. And back to:

HASSLEIN (a whisper) "Lieutenant Dodge."

ZIRA (sleepily) "Until we came here, we'd never seen that before."

This bit didn't make it into the final cut of the movie, however, so
IT AIN'T CANON. Either it wasn't even filmed, or it was filmed yet
had been cut out for whatever reason.

Thus, we don't know beyond all doubt WHY Dodge was stuffed and put
into the Great Hall of the Zaius Museum. Perhaps it was because of
his black skin, perhaps not. We don't know. There certainly was no
SIGN next to this 'exhibit' addressing the issue of his skin color.

I should also point out that Zira's line in the screenplay seems to
imply that she herself may have taken part in the stuffing of Dodge's
corpse and putting him into the museum: "We had it stuffed and put in
our museum. Like the gorilla I saw in yours". It COULD mean that "we
apes" had it stuffed, etc etc., however.

Notice, too, that E.1. mentions that Taylor had colleagues -- he
never specifies the NUMBER of colleagues. He doesn't say, "Taylor had
three colleagues" or "Taylor had two colleagues".
----------------------------------------------------------

>
> You make it out as something else with Landon though... Why on

earth would they decide to stuff and mount an already lobotomised
creature? They wouldn't, unless it was say in a medical museum and
they were displying him as a piece who successfully survived a
lobotomy... But the museum in PLANET looked to be pretty much a
natural history type of museum, NOT a medical museum...

>
> There would have to be a reason as to why they'd display a piece

that had been experimented on, because there were no other dummys
that looked surgically altered in any of the displays in PLANET's
museum. The ONLY reason that would make any sense to why they'd maybe
consider Landon as a unique piece would be if there was a rumor about
of a talking human...

*** Or, after Landon's death Zaius permits his corpse to be put on
display next to his fellow "mutant", perhaps out of a strange sort of
respect for Taylor.

In the end part of "PLANET", Zaius -- when he is on a level-playing-
field with the gun-toting Taylor -- engages him in adversarial
conversation, even admitting that Taylor's supposedly 'conjectural'
explanation for Cornelius' artifacts is an "ingenious" one.

He goes out of his way to give Taylor an almost friendly
warning: "Don't look for it, Taylor... you may not like what you'll
find..."

And he stops the gorillas from pursuing after Taylor and Nova: "No!
Wait! Let them go..."

Zaius tells Cornelius that what he's doing (having the Cave blown up)
he does "with no pleasure". He doesn't enjoy destroying evidence, and
committing a gross injustice -- the impending trial for heresy,
despite the fact that he KNOWS Cornelius had been right, that
Cornelius had "proved it" (as Taylor says), that Man had been there
first, etc etc.

I think that Zaius, in a way, mourns the 'fact' that Man is such a
dangerous species -- "his wisdom must walk hand-in-hand with his
idiocy... his emotions must rule his brain... he must be a warlike
creature who gives battle to everything around him -- even himself!"

His "wisdom". Zaius acknowledges that Man had wisdom -- tainted,
alas, by lesser qualities (idiocy, over-emotionalism, warlike
tendencies, etc). Zaius knows that Man is destructive, yes... but he
also knows that Man WAS -- in some ways -- "better" than the Apes. He
had achieved technological wonders that outstrip everything that the
Ape civilization has done over the course of 1,200 years. Zaius knew
of Man's greatness, as well as his 'evil' nature and his
destructiveness.

I think he had a grudging respect for Taylor -- a Man who showed
genuine gratitude to his only simian friends. He knows that Taylor
tried to repay the favor they did him (saving him) by helping them in
their legal troubles via an examination of Cornelius' evidence in the
Cave. He sees Taylor shake hands with Lucius and Cornelius, wishing
the latter good luck. He sees him share a kiss with Zira! Zaius knows
that Taylor owes his life to them, and was genuinely grateful for
their friendship and help. Zaius knows that Taylor -- though he is a
Man -- is not wholly Evil. There is some Good in him.

I think that Zaius would be inclined to have Landon's body preserved
next to the 'exhibit' that he, Zaius, knows was not just your average
everyday human... but a Space-traveler. The ape citizens going
through the museum wouldn't know that the two stuffed humans in the
Great Hall are special -- but ZAIUS would know that they were. It
might seem 'fitting' to him that those two occupy their places side-
by-side in the Great Hall of the ZAIUS MUSEUM. It's HIS museum, isn't
it? He's the one who has the ultimate say in what goes in, where it
gets put, how it's presented, etc.

Maybe Zaius puts Landon there next to Dodge as a favor to Cornelius
and Zira. THEY know that Landon had once been as intelligent as
Taylor; they felt ashamed of what had happened to him -- the
lobotomization. They may have shamed Zaius into putting Landon there,
next to his comrade. How? Well, it's apparent that -- after the Cave
scene -- Zaius has admitted as much that he had had an intelligent
creature butchered in the lab, all as part of a plan to 'expose' the
heresies of Cornelius and Zira. How can someone guilty of such
nastiness consider himself to be morally superior to Taylor? Zaius
had not only sought to have Taylor "disposed of" (etc), but he also
had acted maliciously against two ape scientists whom HE KNEW were
innocent of 'heresy' -- He knew this, because he himself, privately,
SHARED their heretical views... but hypocritically served as the
watchdog for their theocratic orthodoxy. All for the 'greater good',
of course.

Zaius would NOT put Landon in HIS museum as part of a display
concerning rumors of him being a Talking Human -- he'd had him
lobotomized for the sole purpose of DESTROYING the evidence that he
could speak: "... but the beast could not speak, of course... nor
will he ever speak..."

After having lobotomized Landon and stated in a Tribunal meeting that
Landon could NOT speak and never WOULD speak... is it likely that he
would put him into the museum because of some alleged rumors that he
COULD speak after all? Not bloody likely, IMHO!

Patrick

> I surprised Patrick hasn't come up with one of his own "theories"

that Zaius allowed Cornelius to explore parts of the Forbidden Zone
on purpose in order to increase his own knowledge of the area. I
wouldn't put anything past Zaius, including doing things behind the
back of the President. Besides, we don't know the true nature of
the "President of the Academy." Maybe it was only a ceremonial
position and it was only Zaius that actually administered the day to
day running of the Academy.

>
> Anyway, this argument has made me realize something I'd never

thought about before -- that apes needed travel permits to get from
here to there. That would be necessary in order to keep individuals
from knowing too much about the true nature of their society or
sharing ideas with other apes, and it just goes to show what a
conservative, right-wing nightmare the ape society degenerates into
after the reign of Caesar.

>
> -- Rory

*** I don't buy into the "theory" that Zaius would ever allow any ape
(other than, perhaps, the 'elite' human-hunting gorillas mentioned a
post or two ago) to travel into the Forbidden Zone. Certainly not in
order to increase Zaius' own knowledge of it. Zaius knows enough
about it -- he knows it was once a "paradise" and that Man had turned
it into a desert. He knows that if an archaeologist were to dig
there, he or she MIGHT eventually find artifacts that would
compromise the Lie that is the Apes' "official history". Zaius is
the "Chief Defender of the Faith" -- a 'faith' he knows is false,
built on a lie: "And you're right! I have ALWAYS known about Man..."

It just goes against Zaius' character to allow Cornelius -- a
chimpanzee, whom he would "look down his nose" on -- to go digging in
the Forbidden Zone. Zaius comes from a long line of Guardians of the
Terrible Secret, and Zaius knows how to keep a secret!

And, yes, I do believe that the Apes in "PLANET" and "BENEATH" are
restricted from traveling anywhere they may want to go. They have to
get official permission from the State in order to travel from one
place to another. In totalitarian countries, where the government has
total power over its citizens, such "travel permits" are standard;
the Secret Police keeps tabs on people who travel to certain places
that are suspected of being hubs of dissent...

That one little line in "PLANET" regarding Cornelius' "travel permit"
speaks volumes about the type of society and government that the Apes
have (and suffer under).

Patrick

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-- <.html

I don't want to give away too much here, but...

Why should it bother or confuse anyone to consider that Taylor had relatives back on Earth when he went into space?  A brother, a sister, a cousin, an ex-wife, even children the rat-bastard had abandoned in his flight from humanity are all clearly possible.  Taylor says he has no family and no ties to Earth, but  I know a number of men who claim to have no family simply because they no longer speak to them.  And unless he was an orphan, raised in captivity and studiously kept away from female entaglements his entire life, he had to have SOMEONE he left behind, even an old sweatheart he clearly cares nothing for...but what about her thoughts of HIM? One of the earlier posters suggested a wife Taylor abandons because he believes she's been unfaithful, and their child isn't his....that's not the basis of our story, but it's a heck of an intersting scenario, and a pretty good one.

Please don't prejudge an idea just on a single line tease.  You might hate it, you might like it, but ya gotta read it first to have any idea. 

We've completely abandoned the story about the orang-utans vs. the giant samurai robot brigade.  It had a few plot holes and that one won't see print.  But I'm pretty satisfied with the stuff we're doing otherwise, and I'm pretty confident at least a few of you are going to enjoy what we're working on.

Ty the Guy.

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-- <.html

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In a message dated 12/5/2005 9:31:40 A.M. Central Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Taylor more than likely would have told Zira

 

Less than likely...

Taylor only told Nova

because it's like talking to a dog.

 

 

<.html

.html

Why do we have to read this post three times?

Twice is enough to cover both groups.

 

 

<.html

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In a message dated 12/5/2005 7:29:00 A.M. Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

  Yeah, and what happened to the apes that heard Landon speak? Did they become activists like Cornelius and Zira? - - - Jeff

 

They were probably the ones arrested in the protest.

 

 

<.html

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In a message dated 12/5/2005 9:41:48 A.M. Central Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Maybe she cheated on him with ALL of his 'friends'... and he found out how much of a whore she was. So he divorces her...

 

Someone sounds bitter.

 

 

<.html

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--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:

> There is plenty of time to be critical WHEN YOU SEE THE COMIC..when

you HAVE read the stories.

-- And even then there is no need to be hyper critical if a few things
aren't 100 percent as told in the movies etc. Times have changed a lot
since the golden era of POTA and some things do have to be changed to
keep any new stories current and believable otherwise we just get more
of the same stale old Apes.

I think it is fantastic that these guys will be doing back stories to
flesh out characters we already (think we) know and at least it sounds
like we will be getting something NEW and different but which also
actually respects the source for once.

Neil

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In a message dated 12/5/2005 10:12:17 A.M. Central Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

*** How do YOU know what the authorities thought?! Are you a mind-reader

 

Cougar may not be a mind reader,

but at least he's not a mind writer.

Know what I mean?  ; )

 

 

<.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Ty Templeton <tybunny@g...> wrote:

> We've completely abandoned the story about the orang-utans vs. the

giant samurai robot brigade.

-- Awwww, now I am really upset! ;-)

Neil

.html

In a message dated 12/5/2005 11:03:36 A.M. Central Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Zaius would NOT put Landon in HIS museum as part of a display
concerning rumors of him being a Talking Human -- he'd had him
lobotomized for the sole purpose of DESTROYING the evidence that he
could speak: "... but the beast could not speak, of course... nor
will he ever speak..."

After having lobotomized Landon and stated in a Tribunal meeting that
Landon could NOT speak and never WOULD speak... is it likely that he
would put him into the museum because of some alleged rumors that he
COULD speak after all? Not bloody likely, IMHO!

 

I really don't think it mattered that much.

Nor did it matter that a handful of vets and

workers in the clinic may have heard Landon

utter something intelligible before his surgery.

Everyone seems to forget that Taylor spoke,

loud and clear.  And not just in the courtroom

or the amphitheater.  He shouted, "Take Your

Stinking Paws Off Me, You Damned Dirty Ape!"

right there in the market place in front of a

rather sizeable crowd.  Was the whole town

there?  No.  Obviously the non-chimp females

weren't.  But there were too many there to

arrest all of them.  Ape City is not that big.

 

 

<.html

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In a message dated 12/5/2005 11:16:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

** I don't buy into the "theory" that Zaius would ever allow any ape
(other than, perhaps, the 'elite' human-hunting gorillas mentioned a
post or two ago) to travel into the Forbidden Zone. Certainly not in
order to increase Zaius' own knowledge of it. Zaius knows enough
about it -- he knows it was once a "paradise" and that Man had turned
it into a desert. He knows that if an archaeologist were to dig
there, he or she MIGHT eventually find artifacts that would
compromise the Lie that is the Apes' "official history". Zaius is
the "Chief Defender of the Faith" -- a 'faith' he knows is false,
built on a lie: "And you're right! I have ALWAYS known about Man..."

It just goes against Zaius' character to allow Cornelius -- a
chimpanzee, whom he would "look down his nose" on -- to go digging in
the Forbidden Zone.

 

See my previous post on this subject.

 

<.html

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In a message dated 12/5/2005 3:06:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

maybe just use language that is less "attacking".

 

I think when a contrary position is read

people are "reading" in more venom than

may have been originally intended.  Except

for Rory's posts of course.  You should read

those as though he was spitting poison like

a cobra.  ; )

 

 

<.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , LordTZer0@A... wrote:

> But there were too many there to
> arrest all of them. Ape City is not that big.

-- Good point, so just how big would the population of Ape City be do
you think? Any ideas anyone?

Neil

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In a message dated 12/4/2005 5:51:14 P.M. Central Standard Time, taebokitti@... writes:

  I am so proud of you LT, big words and now you are philosophizing. Elaine

 

That's worse than Michael saying if I can be polite than anyone can!

Why is everyone on my case?

  I'm sorry, I don't mean to pick on you. And Cougar is right, you have always been a philospher, just misunderstood. Elaine

 

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I have to agree here.

 

I know last time we all got positive about new POTA we got Burton's "movie"….but as they say in the classics you gotta put that behind you and love again!  Ty – this really is the problem here…..too many of us got our hopes up then and these wounds heal slowly.

 

But I can tall you all, the new comic is great – it works for me and I suspect it will work for 99.9% of you (the .1% will be those who can't say because it sold out before they got a copy!).

 

There is plenty of time to be critical WHEN YOU SEE THE COMIC….when you HAVE read the stories.

 

I am really hoping these are good enough to pull of a "ROBOCOP" or "BG" like resurrection of Planet of the Apes.

 

Or even a "ANIMATED ADVENTURES OF POTA".

 

Or even just MORE comics!

 

The main point is, Ty is HERE – he is LISTENING to the small pool of fans POTA has left.   He wants this to succeed and is doing everything possible to make it work.  I don't think anyone could ask for much more.  So I ask that we stay positive and if you want to get "critical in advance" maybe just use language that is less "attacking".

 

Anyway – I for one am appreciative that an 800 pound gorilla wants to be here and get feedback. 

 

Michael

 

I am excited that a new pota comic is coming out. I had to order it online , the nearest comic bookstore to me would not order it. Elaine

 

 

 

 

 

 

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