In Texas – I am guessing it NEVER gets THAT cold!  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 9:00 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] It's getting hot....

What DO you call scones?!?!?

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 8:37 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Time zones......

Describe them!  Please…..

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 9:53 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Time zones......

Scones

When I lived in the US in 1983 I remember our car breaking down and I had to walk 3 blocks….it was so cold I was breathing in ICICLES!  That must be what you mean by LUNG FREEZING!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 9:52 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] It's getting hot....

I wonder if it is a coincidence – the release date for the comic is very close to the date John Lennon was gunned dowm….?

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 9:41 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Planet of the Apes Super-8 films...

Lol!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony B. McElveen
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 3:32 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Scones.

Other than Ty being a Beatles fan……no.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 3:15 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Planet of the Beatles

In a message dated 12/8/2005 5:43:07 AM Central Standard Time, whitty@... writes:

          I wonder if it is a coincidence – the release date for the comic is very close to the date John Lennon was gunned dowm….?

 

Don't tell me you think there's some hidden meaning here?

You put on women’s clothing…..and hang around in bars…??

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 3:40 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Scones.

And the wrote that REVOLUTION song…….and the cover of Abbey Road ……maybe Paul IS dead!  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 3:45 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Planet of the Beatles

Bingo!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 5:02 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: New file uploaded to PotaDG

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "John" wrote:
> See, Michael. I told you about a month ago that it looked just like
> the robot that killed the Fantastic Four cartoon.

-- I did deliberately base the robot's head on POTA technology if that
helps anyone come to terms with it.

Neil






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--

Bikkies=Biscuits (=cookies here!)

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of taebokitti@...
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 5:20 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Domo arigato Neil's crazy roboto

--

There you go – it was Valerie’s husband who transferred them to digital, then Hunter used one of his software packages to clean it up….right?

Anyway what was the next group project after that?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 5:33 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Group Projects

I think the first was when I taped the Power Records to a cassette tape and sent them to Valerie (whose husband transferred the to CD and cleaned them up a bit).

 

This went to Hunter and either Greg P or Hunter scanned the books and made slide-shows to go with the readings.

 

--

That’s cool Patrick.  Having studied Catholic theology (and having met Dr Zaius) I have NO hesitation in attributing the scriptures to getting dates (AND events – unless you really think there IS a God who created the Ape in His own image) quite WRONG!

SO while Zira and Cornelius believe they have been speaking “the language of their forefathers” for thousands of years…they ALSO believe humans never spoke….so it actually makes SENSE that some misguided DEFENDER OF THE FAITH has given them this FALSE impression that it was THOUSANDS of years.

And hey – as long as you are enjoying WITHIN, I’m happy my friend!  I did not write that to win prizes, I actually wrote it to stimulate conversation about POTA (and I slipped in a few things just to be controversial!).  It was conceived after a lot of alcohol when Neil and I met about a year ago and we actually decided we would just be doing “throw-away” stuff.  Looking at it now I think you can see how it did NOT stay “throw-away” for long!  ;)  This was an attempt to revive a dying DG still reeling from the departure of the Judean People’s Front (or was it the People’s Front of Judea?)…either way – “Fucking splitters!”.  ;)

We are coming to the point where there is a departure in the original (ie comic-strip) style.

The narrative changes and we are in for a few real treats…..including a “sleeveless” look that Neil just loves to draw (he made me count the HAIRS on the gorilla’s ARMS!!!!).

Neil – could you please load up the next entire page?

There’s some GOOD ones coming…….

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 5:34 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Timelines...

Mike, I have to point out, you realize, that there is dialogue
in "ESCAPE" that makes your Timeline scenario impossible. Don't take
this personally, Mike, but I gotta point it out.

During the Presidential Commission of Inquiry's initial meeting, an
African-American LAWYER [the script calls him a LAWYER, and he's
played by a black man] asks Cornelius:

"Cornelius, do you and your lawfully wedded spouse speak any language
other than English?"

Cornelius responds:

"What is 'English'? I speak the language taught to me by my father
and mother, who were taught by their fathers and mothers before them.
It has been the language of our ancestors for nearly two thousand
years. As to its origins, oh, who can be sure? The gorillas and
orangutans of our community believed that God created the Ape in His
own image, and that our language--"

Incidentally, this is the truth: Honorius, stating the First Article
of Faith before the Tribunal, states that "God created the Ape in His
own image... that He gave him a Soul and a Mind... that He set him
apart from the beasts of the jungle and made him the lord of the
planet". This IS what the gorillas and orangutans of Cornelius'
community believed.

Later, after this Commission meeting adjourns, when Zira and
Cornelius are alone with Dixon and Branton, Dixon says:

"... They loved you... all that applause, BUT -- BUT, ahem, there was
a MOMENT..."

And Zira admits, "There WAS... when he started to ask if--"

And Cornelius cuts her off: "Zira!"

Zira says, "Cornelius, I think we should tell them--"

Cornelius: "No."

Zira: "But o-only to Lewis and Stevie--!"

Cornelius sighs wearily, sitting down: "Oh, Zira..."

Zira sits down next to him, pleading: "I have to be honest with
SOMEone!... YOU tell them."

And then Cornelius tells Dixon and Branton: "Well, you see... we...
DID know Colonel Taylor. We came to love him..." etc.

In other words, the "moment" that Lewis Dixon points out -- the
moment when Zira and Cornelius began to be less-than-completely-
truthful to the Commission -- began when one of the Commissioners
asked, "Cornelius, did you know a Colonel Taylor?" Cornelius, of
course, LIES to them then: "No... is he a soldier?"

In other words, everything they said to the Commission up until they
were asked if they knew Colonel Taylor was the TRUTH. Of course, Zira
stopped herself from finishing the word "dissected" and changed it
to "examined", but "examined" was still the truth -- her "comparative
anatomy" studies involved examining humans, after all.

Cornelius' testimony about his ancestors speaking English "for nearly
two thousand years", then, MUST BE THE TRUTH.

There cannot have been any 'original' timeline where the
alleged 'first-ape-to-talk' didn't do so until 500 years after the
Pet Plague -- that would place the First Word of "Aldo" only about
1,500 years prior to the time when Cornelius and Zira lived, circa
3955.

Sure, LATER ON Cornelius and Zira imply that after a Plague that
killed off all the dogs and cats the petless humans made pets of Apes
for "two centuries" -- and then enslaved them for "three more
centuries", after which the Apes then turned the tables on their
masters.

But BOTH chronologies cannot be true. They conflict with each other.
Either Cornelius was telling the truth to the Commission about Apes
from his time having spoken English for "nearly 2,000 years" or he
and Zira are telling the truth about the First Talking Ape ["Aldo"]
doing so a mere 1,500 years before their era.

They indicate to Lewis Dixon and Stephanie Branton that they had not
been honest about whether or not they knew Taylor -- and that's why
they shared the truth with those two humans whom they trusted, and
ONLY with them, at that point. But EVERYTHING ELSE they'd testified
to in front of the Commission up UNTIL that "moment" they imply had
been the TRUTH.

Which means that their later, conflicting chronology MUST BE
INTENTIONALLY FALSE.

There WAS/WILL BE a Plague...

Man DID/WILL take Apes as pets, to replace their Dogs and Cats...

Man DID/WILL eventually enslave their pet Apes...

And those Apes DID/WILL throw off the yoke of slavery...

But the TIMETABLE Cornelius and Zira give them is INTENTIONALLY
false. To give Hasslein a false sense of security. Cornelius knows
that the Pet Plague is soon to happen -- it's only 10 years in the
Future, in 1983. He WANTS Hasslein and the other interrogators to
assume that there won't be any Ape uprisings until 500 years after
that Plague...

.... But Cornelius and Zira KNOW that it'll happen much much sooner
than that. They know that their own son will be the "Savior" who will
lead the Apes to victory over their human 'masters' and oppressors.
They don't tell Hasslein this, of course, because they know that they
wouldn't leave that interrogation room alive if Hasslein were to know
the FULL truth. Hasslein would murder them and their unborn son then-
and-there, if they were to divulge the COMPLETE truth about the
impending downfall of Man... so the postdate Man's Downfall a half a
millennium.

Cornelius mentions an ape named "Aldo" -- rather than an ape "Savior"
named CAESAR -- because he wants not only his unborn Son to fulfill
his destiny as the first simian King (etc), but because he ALSO
doesn't want Caesar's son, Cornelius' grandson (named after him), to
be murdered by Aldo.

Cornelius knows the name of his grandson's murderer, because he's
read the same scroll that John Huston's character read to his
audience of Ape and Human children in the bracket-scenes of "BATTLE".
That scroll was one of the "history scrolls kept hidden from the
masses" he mentions... "the Secret Scrolls". He must have become
aware of them after the events of "PLANET" and before he, Zira, and
Milo blasted off in that ANSA ship. When he read that scroll in 3955
he probably thought it was an ahistorical "myth" with virtually no
foundation in historical fact.

But... after finding himself in a Human-dominated world in his own
distant Past... after having seen the EARTH-TIME chronometer on that
ANSA ship click backwards from 3955 to 1973... after Milo reminds him
and Zira of that bizarre event... Cornelius must begin to wonder
whether or not he and Zira are, indeed, the "parent apes" written of
in that ancient scroll. The "parent apes" of CAESAR... apes who were
said to have been "brutally murdered".

Zira's pregnant. The old scroll mentions how "God, in His wrath, sent
the World a Savior, miraculously born of Two Apes who had descended
on Earth from Earth's own future..."

Isn't it LIKELY that Cornelius would re-assess his scepticism
regarding that old "mythic" scroll? Instead of seeming like a whole
lot of nonsense, it would begin to seem dead-on accurate. He and Zira
MUST be those "Two Apes who had descended on Earth from Earth's own
future" -- whose son would free enslaved Apes from the yoke of
servitude.

The LAST thing Cornelius and Zira would want is for Hasslein to know
that in less than two decades the unborn baby in Zira's womb will be
leading the Ape Revolution. So... they give him a FALSE CHRONOLOGY,
one that is contradicted by their earlier testimony to the
Presidential Commission. They have to hope that Hasslein won't
realize the discrepancy, the same way he noticed the "hesitancies and
small discrepancies in their answers to the Commission" -- which led
to this more "professional" interrogation by CIA/NSA-types.

They give this FALSE CHRONOLOGY in order to protect their unborn son,
whom they KNOW will be the Ape King named "Caesar".

And they tell Hasslein the name of an Ape whom THEY want to be 'taken
out'... since, if he ISN'T killed, he'll become the murderer of their
unborn son's son... their own grandson, also named "Cornelius".

Mike... BOTH chronologies can't be right. Cornelius and Zira tell the
truth -- except about knowing Taylor -- to the Commission: their
society had been speaking English since the 20th Century --
for "nearly 2,000 years". The world doesn't have 500 years to wait
for "Aldo" to arrive -- he'll show up on the scene SOON, and end up
murdering their grandson in 45 years, just before Kolp's 'mutant'
army attacks Ape City. They don't mention the name "Caesar" because
they don't want Hasslein to know that the "Secret Scrolls" actually
talks about HIM as the "Savior" -- NOT "Aldo". They mention "Aldo" in
order to endanger ANY ape named "Aldo", so as to prevent their
grandson's murder.

"... there was a MOMENT..." A moment when Zira and Cornelius had to
stop being honest. About Colonel Taylor... and him being still alive,
which he CAN'T be, since the Earth was destroyed...

But they WERE completely honest when Cornelius told 'em that they'd
been speaking English for "nearly 2,000 years". The "moment" happened
AFTER that bit. That PROVES that the first talking ape cannot have
cropped up only 1,500 years prior to "PLANET" and "BENEATH".

Patrick

P.S. I'm still enjoying "WITHIN" despite the fact that I just can't
agree with your back-story multiple-timelines scenario. I'm just
classifying "WITHIN" amongst the Moench-written Marvel POTA stories:
noncanonical, but fun (and especially well-drawn) nevertheless.
_______________________________________________________________

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@c...> wrote:
>
> Well the robot sure is more advanced than THIS ship so I imaging it
was built around 2300.
> 
> The way I see it is that there was a different original ape
revolution to that of Caesar's (the one Cornelius refers to in
Escape) that fits more snugly with Cornelius' findings in the cave in
Planet (carnivorous gorillas etc).
> 
> That's how I explain the dates in Conquest (that we have, much like
1984, now passed!)..the 90s in Conquest take place in OUR
future...after Taylor nukes the planet and 3 ape-o-nauts travel back
in time therefore changing the past.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of patrickmichaeltilton
> Sent: Thursday, 8 December 2005 1:07 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Domo arigato Neil's crazy roboto
> 
> Is it a 20th Century artifact, having been in this Mutant Spaceship
> Museum since the time of the Nuke War, or was it built centuries
later, perhaps by Mutants?

Now, now Rory be nice!

Hey Rory, do you mind if I scan your letters to the editors of the Curtis mags and show the group?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 6:04 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Timelines...

In a message dated 12/8/05 1:43:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

They give this FALSE CHRONOLOGY in order to protect their unborn son,
whom they KNOW will be the Ape King named "Caesar".

You're an idiot for thinking this, Patrick, which renders all your "theories" as utter nonsense.

If Cornelius and Zira supposedly knew "everything" about the past, and their role in it, why were they so clueless in ESCAPE?  Why couldn't they have figured out how to escape their own murders?  Wouldn't any sane creature try to escape such a fate?

No, Patrick, events don't happen until they happen.  Zira and Cornelius knew nothing of what they would face in 1973 when they lived in the 40th century -- BECAUSE IT HADN'T HAPPENED YET!

Everyone.....  ESCAPE FROM PATRICK!!!!

-- Rory

Good luck Rory!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 5:54 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Chimp glyph for sale!

In a message dated 12/6/05 10:01:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, apefan23@... writes:

http://cgi.ebay.com/PLANET-OF-THE-APES-1968-ORIG-CHIMP-EMBLEM-w-COA-Last_W0QQitemZ7568252904QQcategoryZ60345QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This I think I might bid on.

-- Rory

Savoury biscuits…or water crackers…..

Now let me get back to my breakfast of kangaroo testicles!  ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 7:02 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Domo arigato Neil's crazy roboto

Are they biscuits as well, or are they crackers?

I got SO excited when ADVENTURE released TERROR.

I remember the trauma in my childhood when CURTIS (or Marvel) went from announcing new TERROR episodes and an all new post-Battle story to declaring it was all over.  I actually recall where I was when I read this.

I have always wished there was a plotted conclusion to TERROR.  Ty, you may have the clout to get behind this and find out is there are any scripted/pencilled/plotted old stories hanging around?  Hell, if you wanted to I bet you could grab Ploog and finish it for is!  ;)  If we take up a collection…..say $500 each…..fellas, gals…..where did you all disappear to…?!?!?  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hill19652000
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 7:28 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Copyrights on the POTA

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Ty Templeton <tybunny@g...> wrote:
>
> For the original stories (The Ploog and Sutton ones) Marvel USED
to own
> them, but at some point either sold them or licenced them to
someone, since
> I've seen them reprinted at least once.  For the adaptation, since
the
> scripts were from existing scripts, then the copyrights probably
stayed with
> Serling and Dehn...
>
> Ty
>
Yeah Adventure comics reprinted them in the '90s but I thought this
was part of the deal with Fox implying that they actually owned the
copyrights as well as the trademarks. I thought it was similar to
Dark horse comics with Conan and Star Wars,as the new licensee they
had the rights to reprint the older Marvel work granted by the
current owners of the property. Once Marvels licence had lapsed they
had no ownership to the work. I also wonder if Serling and Dehns
work would come under work for hire as Jacobs approached them. All
just speculation as we all know what copyright and trademarks are
like, just ask the owners of Superman :)
Best wishes Graham.

And then the bastards released “Monkey Planet”!  I bought it for $25 in Sydney while I was on vacation and rushed through a crowd of prostitutes back to my hotel room to rip it out of the paper bag…..and find it was just the first 4 (cruddy!) Adventure Comics stories!

When is someone going to do a graphic novel for Monkey Planet, that really is Boulle’s POTA??!?!?!?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Whitty
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 7:42 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Copyrights on the POTA

I got SO excited when ADVENTURE released TERROR.

I remember the trauma in my childhood when CURTIS (or Marvel) went from announcing new TERROR episodes and an all new post-Battle story to declaring it was all over.  I actually recall where I was when I read this.

I have always wished there was a plotted conclusion to TERROR.  Ty, you may have the clout to get behind this and find out is there are any scripted/pencilled/plotted old stories hanging around?  Hell, if you wanted to I bet you could grab Ploog and finish it for is!  ;)  If we take up a collection…..say $500 each…..fellas, gals…..where did you all disappear to…?!?!?  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hill19652000
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 7:28 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Copyrights on the POTA

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Ty Templeton <tybunny@g...> wrote:
>
> For the original stories (The Ploog and Sutton ones) Marvel USED
to own
> them, but at some point either sold them or licenced them to
someone, since
> I've seen them reprinted at least once.  For the adaptation, since
the
> scripts were from existing scripts, then the copyrights probably
stayed with
> Serling and Dehn...
>
> Ty
>
Yeah Adventure comics reprinted them in the '90s but I thought this
was part of the deal with Fox implying that they actually owned the
copyrights as well as the trademarks. I thought it was similar to
Dark horse comics with Conan and Star Wars,as the new licensee they
had the rights to reprint the older Marvel work granted by the
current owners of the property. Once Marvels licence had lapsed they
had no ownership to the work. I also wonder if Serling and Dehns
work would come under work for hire as Jacobs approached them. All
just speculation as we all know what copyright and trademarks are
like, just ask the owners of Superman :)
Best wishes Graham.

Something to do with a museum and a crazy robot!  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 8:41 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] New file uploaded to PotaDG

I think I know now how Milo will learn to fly a
spaceship!!

Tim

--- PotaDG@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know
> that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
> PotaDG
> group.
>
>   File        : /Within the Planet of the
> Apes/Current Chapter/Chapters 67 & 68.gif
>   Uploaded by : munkeyman63au
> <nfoster@...>
>   Description : 
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Within%20the%20Planet%20of%20the%20Apes/Current%20Chapter/Chapters%2067%20%26%2068.gif
>
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group,
> please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>

I can’t see how you conclude this….sorry…..

I’d understand if he said “it is my own methods of dating the past” but doesn’t he actually say “according to our scriptures”??

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Tilton
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 8:50 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Timelines...and MORE new WITHIN!?!??!

It is CORNELIUS' OWN METHODS of dating the Past -- to
the "prehistory" he tells Hasslein of -- that leads
him to conclude that his society's ancestors spoke
their language (English) for 2,000 years.

Stop playing with the group and show us the hairy bartender!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 9:08 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Timelines...and MORE new WITHIN!?!??!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Tilton
<patrickmichaeltilton@y...> wrote:
> Despite all this, I am still enjoying WITHIN, so "no
worries"!

-- Cool, no wuckin' furries then mate. ;-)

Blinky Bill

For those who can’t get into the FILES section…..

Patrick – take a breath, and go check out the hairy bartender.  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Tilton
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 9:24 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Timelines...

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> If Cornelius and Zira supposedly knew "everything"
about the past, and their role in it, why were they so
clueless in ESCAPE? Why couldn't they have figured out
how to escape their own murders? Wouldn't any sane
creature try to escape such a fate?

*** Did I say that they knew "everything" about the
Past? No! They only know what Cornelius had been able
to deduce from his archaological work (which includes
his own methods for dating the Past, especially the
era of the Talking Doll to 1,300 + 700 years before
his Present), and from whatever information he had
been able to glean from the "Secret Scrolls" that had
been hidden from the masses. Who hid those scrolls
from the masses, Rory? Wouldn't that be Dr. Zaius?
Zaius certainly didn't inform Cornelius about those
scrolls until AFTER the events of "PLANET", and since
Cornelius didn't have those scrolls WITH him in the
ANSA ship they flew into orbit, that means he had to
have learned about the Pet Plague (etc) from having
read those scrolls at some time prior to their
lift-off in the spaceship.

Get this through your thick skull, you bloody baboon:
Cornelius did NOT take seriously the improbable story
told in that ancient scroll -- about a pair of
Time-Travelling "parent apes" whose son became the
"Savior" (etc) -- when he lived in the 40th Century.
Cornelius never thought in his wildest dreams that he
would ever experience Time Travel. Not even when he,
Zira, and Milo blasted off in that ship. They were
merely trying to escape the War. They didn't
anticipate seeing the Earth get blown up, let alone
experiencing the Timewarp that resulted.

It was only AFTER they found themselves in their
distant Past -- to the time when his Cave's
"artifacts" were made, when the human who wore those
glasses and false teeth and had the bad heart was
ALIVE -- that Cornelius would've realized that he and
Zira matched the description of the "parent apes" who
had "descended on Earth from Earth's own future".

You ask: "Why couldn't they have figured out how to
escape their own murders? Wouldn't any sane creature
try to escape such a fate?" Good questions: Here's my
answers.

They couldn't figure out how to escape their own
murders because there was NOTHING in that old scroll
that told them HOW or WHERE they would be murdered, or
by whom. The dialogue spoken by John Huston gave no
indication that the Parent Apes were cornered on a
derelict ship (etc etc) on such-&-such a date. All
they could know was that they WOULD be "brutally
murdered". You seem to think that they -- as "sane"
creatures -- would try to escape such a fate -- but
you're WRONG, Rory. Cornelius asks Lewis Dixon for a
gun so that they can kill themselves, if it should
come to it -- and Zira adds "Please?" -- and Lewis
gives them the gun. Shortly thereafter, Zira purposely
leaves behind her carpetbag in that oil derrick, so
that it would be found -- tipping off the authorities
that they were nearby. Zira, by this time, KNEW she
would soon die AND ORCHESTRATED IT. She knew that her
son was in Heloise's cage in Armando's circus -- SAFE
from Hasslein. She wanted the authorities to STOP
looking for them and their baby, which they WOULD do
(and DID) when they FOUND them and then KILLED both
THEM and the baby chimp they had with them. Zira knew
that it would be ASSUMED that the baby chimp was
theirs, and not some changeling. Zira and Cornelius
WANTED TO DIE at this point, Rory, so that their
surviving son would have the 'cover' he needed -- the
world believing that the Ape-onaut threat was
eliminated.

Dehn wrote "ESCAPE" and gave it the ending it has
because he ANTICIPATED that there would be a 4th APES
movie -- and he planned for that story to be about the
grown-up son of Zira and Cornelius. He had "CONQUEST"
planned before they shot Scene 1 of "ESCAPE". And --
it bears repeating -- in Dehn's conception, the
Timeline of POTA is a CIRCLE. He's the one who wrote
the sequels (including the Caesar's Statue tear that
ended "BATTLE"), and INTENDED it all to be one vicious
circle, with the ending of "BATTLE" hinting at the
situation that would be found in "PLANET" and
"BENEATH" -- including the existence of the Doomsday
Bomb-worshipping Mutants led by the first Mendez.

>
> No, Patrick, events don't happen until they happen.
Zira and Cornelius knew nothing of what they would
face in 1973 when they lived in the 40th century --
BECAUSE IT HADN'T HAPPENED YET!
>
> Everyone.....  ESCAPE FROM PATRICK!!!!
>
> -- Rory
>

*** Rory, Cornelius and Zira were born in the 40th
Century, and by THAT time the events written of in
both the 1,200 year old Sacred Scrolls and the even
OLDER Secret Scrolls HAD HAPPENED! Get that through
your noggin, you monkey! "Older Zira" and "Older
Cornelius" existed on Earth BEFORE "Younger Zira" and
"Younger Cornelius" because the latter pair TRAVELED
BACK IN TIME FROM 3955 TO 1973, with their unborn son
inside her womb. Those events DID happen and they were
RECORDED in those older scrolls -- scrolls that were
around less than a century before the Sacred Scrolls
were written. The Lawgiver (and the ancestor of Zaius
who lived then) suppressed the older scriptures when
they promulgated the Sacred Scrolls; those older
writings weren't completely destroyed, however. Zaius
kept copies of them, "kept hidden from the masses"
Cornelius says.

What part of that do you not get?

Patrick

Sounds right to me!  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anthony B. McElveen
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 10:07 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Timelines...and MORE new WITHIN!?!??!

Once Cornelius and Zira arrive in 1973, their existence is no longer 
dependant upon the particular future that originally created them. 
They create a new timeline beginning in 1973 and sever their ties 
with the future; they switch lanes on Virgil's infinite highway.

It can also be compared to a drawing. If you erase it, you have the 
option of drawing something completely different, or of trying to re-
draw what was there, but it will never be the same drawing. Cornelius 
and Zira erased their history when they went back.


On Dec 8, 2005, at 4:54 p.m., Patrick Tilton wrote:

> --- PofTAfan@... wrote:
>
>> If you look at what the Sacred Scrolls, Dr. Zaius,
> Cornelius and Dr. Haselien  said about
> timelines,(circular or infinte lanes).  What ever the
> three ape-o-nauts did when they came back from the
> future one thing is  certain about the timeline. It
> was royally messed up when the apes arrived.
>>
>
> *** What did the Sacred Scrolls say about Timelines?
> Of the two passages quoted from them (both in
> "PLANET"), neither of them has anything to say about
> Timelines. One passage talks about Proteus, the
> upright Beast chained to a Tree in the Garden (etc),
> and the other is a warning about "the Beast MAN... the
> Devil's Pawn" etc.
>
> What did Zaius say about Timelines? Nothing.
>
> What did Cornelius say about Timelines? Nothing.
>
> The ONLY one on your list -- Dr. Hasslein -- did talk
> about Timelines; first, on Bill Bonds' TV newscast
> ("infinite regression") and later with the President.
>
> You didn't mention VIRGIL, the only other ape to voice
> an opinion about the Timeline question (in
> conversation with Caesar and MacDonald).
>
> The crux of the matter is: if the Doomsday Bomb
> DOESN'T explode in 3955, then how can the Ape-onauts
> exist in the 1973+ Timeline? CAUSE and EFFECT: the
> explosion CAUSED the Timewarp that sent the Ape-onauts
> back in time from 3955 to 1973. Their arrival in 1973
> is the EFFECT of that CAUSE. Caesar CAN'T change that
> future, because he'd be erasing his own existence. His
> very existence is proof positive that NO ONE can alter
> that particular future.
>
> Patrick