Jeff – thanks for the report.

Did you get a copy of the DVD Hunter et al put together?  If so, how does Return compare?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of veetus@...
Sent: Wednesday, 29 March 2006 5:51 PM
To: the gang; PotaDG@yahoogroups.com; pota_Phenomenon@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] U L T I M A T E

  I'll just say I like this set. I wish there was more to it but at least Fox put it out there. It seems to be getting POTA some notice again because of the unique packaging. For those who don't have any POTA DVDs it's gold. For those like me who already have most of it, it's nice to have back-up copies. DVDs can scratch easily. I admit there is a sense of going to the well too often, and another blown opportunity to bring us deleted scenes and stuff we haven't seen. If you're not interested in the cartoons you'd probably be better off just getting the sequels or the "Legacy" set (I'd say those are worth upgrading to). I'm satisfied with this but I know many won't be. A high-ticket item like this is a tough call to make. - - - Jeff

I hate polls (so do you T!).

However, I raised this question at my work yesterday.

The general consensus is that NOBODY rides side-saddle when they JUMP.

I was told it is something people mainly do in a parade and not often else.

My mother once mentioned it had more to do with keeping a maiden intact.

I really don’t know – does anyone?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Wednesday, 29 March 2006 7:17 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Young Doctor Zira

Did/Should Zira always ride Sidesaddle?

From what I can tell, the sequels are being sold separately in the US , and these are the ones that have enhancements.

Other countries, I am not sure.

I’m amazed that some are saying the “Return” cartoon DVDs are about the same quality as the fan-released ones.

I know for sure Ken Taylor (the Aussie behind the first ever VHS release of the TV Show – he worked at Fox) has seen masters of RETURN at Fox (on VHS) and commented that they were as clean as the TV Show masters.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com [friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melinda G Kettler
Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 12:11 AM
To: friends_and_fugitives; PotaDG
Subject: [pota_tv] Question About Ultimate POTA

Melinda

Oh DEAR!!

MW  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 7:06 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Young Doctor Zira

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, LordTZer0@... wrote:
>
> This was meant to be a group comic.
> Let's do a poll.
> What do you folks think?
> Did/Should Zira always ride Sidesaddle?
>

"I prefer Zira to ride "reverse cowgirl"..."

Cornelius

Well said.

Beneath was what got me hooked on APES – and it was the CURTIS MAGAZINE!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ty Templeton
Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 6:25 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Stop bashing BENEATH, gawd dammit!

Can I say something that might shock you?

I LOVE Beneath the Planet of the Apes, in fact, had a giant one sheet poster for Beneath up on the wall of my bedroom for most of my childhood.  The scene at the end where Taylor and Brent fight each other at the insistence of the mutant guy was the nightmare of my youth...YEOOW!  Considering how much I enjoy all SIX of the POTA movies (yup, I'm one of those weirdos who is so into the Apes, I found things to enjoy in the 2002 version), there's really none of the movies I'll say isn't a total joy to watch.

However, loving something doesn't mean I have to be blinded by its problems.  Compared to the other four original films, Beneath has the weakest script, in my opinion, and the one that travels furthest from the point of the Apes films.  And what political and social satire is attempted in Beneath, seems less sublte, less allegorical and less creative than most of the other films.

I love all of the Apes movies, but not equally.  I have an abiding nostalgic fondness for Beneath, as it was a seminal film-going event in my childhood, but it pales in comparison to all the originals, except perhaps, Battle, which has its own problems.  (I'm equally willing to love Battle, btw, and realize the problem lay in its budget, more than its script).

And I'd like to point out, of the original creators, most of them dismiss Beneath as the one that they were less pleased with.

Sorry if that gets your dander up, but it's not a lack of respect for Beneath that prompted my comments, just an awareness that Beneath is being compared to Planet, Conquest and Escape, three of my favorite films of all time!

Ty

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Ty Templeton" <tybunny@...> wrote:
> Do I see the story in Revolution as political?  Hell yeah.  The
story in Conquest and the story in Planet are both highly political. 
(Beneath, bless its heart, attempt to play with political satire, and
came across as ham handed nonsense.)
>
> Ty the Guy.
________________________________________________________________

*** What is this, BENEATH-bashing month? Don't I get enough of that
from Rory? And what's-his-name, the jerk who wrote that review that T
posted a link to last week?

Ty, you're welcome to your own opinion about BENEATH's merits (or
lack thereof), but excuse me for having a differing opinion. In
PLANET it is established that the Apes' food supplies are endangered
by the Humans who have eaten up their own food supplies in the forest
and then migrated to the Apes' "green belts" to ravage their crops.
Zaius goes so far as to opine that "the sooner [Man] is exterminated,
the better."

In BENEATH, Ursus -- during his Citizens' Council speech -- refers to
the upcoming invasion of the Forbidden Zone (whose unknown
denizens "must eat") for the purpose of "replenish[ing] the land that
was ravaged by the Humans with new, improved feeding grounds, and
these grounds we can obtain in the once-Forbidden Zone." BENEATH
takes a plot element from PLANET and extrapolates it in a way that
was relevant to the times.

Ursus' reasons for invading the Forbidden Zone are, in fact, BETTER
than the reasons given for the escalation of the Vietnam conflict
(which was being protested as BENEATH was in production), since the
U.S.A. was not facing a "Food Crisis" that could be solved by
invading North Vietnam and Cambodia.

The "telepathic mutants" element of BENEATH -- far from being
the "ham handed nonsense" you dismiss it as -- is actually the ONLY
element of Satire that ANY of the sequels of PLANET ever offered up.
The only thing that even came close was the character of Lightsmith
in Marvel's "TERROR" series, with his "Wonder Wagon" full of Pre-
Cataclysm antiquities that he attempts to explain away to Jason and
Alexander. I view PLANET (the 1st film) as essentially a Satire, with
the Sci-Fi elements serving the story for its setting. The sequels --
with the sole exception of BENEATH -- veer away from Satire and
explore their various plots from a predominantly Allegorical
standpoint.

And, really, is it TOO nonsensical to see in Dehn's telepathic mutant
society an all-too-apt description of the world of 1969-to-1970? In a
way, the U.S.A. (and its enemies in the "Nuclear Club") viewed the
proliferation of nuclear weapons as the ONLY thing preventing an all-
out war between the superpowers: the doctrine of Mutual Assured
Destruction. By having the retaliatory ability to destroy an
attacker, a First Strike was deemed inadvisable -- if, that is, any
of the "sides" in the Cold War conflict wished to "win" over their
opponent.

The mutants LITERALLY worship the Bomb. In the real world, the people
in control of the foreign policies of both the U.S.A., the USSR, Red
China (etc) FIGURATIVELY worshipped the power of the nuclear bomb.
How many parades went through Red Square depicting the glorious
military might of the Soviets, in a quasi-religious procession? How
many times have there been "shows" of U.S. military might, airshows
where jet pilots execute acrobatic maneuvers in the sky, to "wow" the
audience footing the bill for the ever-increasing Arms race?

The telepathy aspect of the mutant society represents LITERAL mind-
control techniques, which an astute audience would compare and
contrast to the "opinion"-influencing propagandas used by their own
society's leaders, not only against the "enemies" of their country,
but also against their own people. It also riffed on the Mind Control
aspect of a previous James Gregory movie, "THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE",
which makes you wonder if Ursus, too, had his evil manipulating wife
in the wings, steering things her way in pursuit of an ideological
agenda...

One other important aspect to the political content of BENEATH: in
both the Ape society and the Mutant society, ORGANIZED RELIGION is
deeply involved in the approval of the escalation of conflict that
ultimately culminates in the destruction of the Earth. The Ape
Minister declares that Ursus is waging a "Holy War" (jihad?)
undertaken, literally, for God's sake. Though no ape has so much as
SEEN any of their "enemy", this ape has an opinion regarding their
lack of beauty: "And grant, in the name of your prophet, our great
Lawgiver, that we may aspire to that spiritual godliness AND BODILY
BEAUTY which You, in Your infinite mercy, have thought fit to deny to
our brutish enemies!"

How the hell does he know that the Unknown beings dwelling in the
Forbidden Zone are "brutish" and lacking in bodily beauty? He DOESN'T
know this, but that doesn't stop him from assuming it and signing off
on the invasion, putting the weight of the ape Church behind it.

Similarly, the mutant society is ruled by a guy Caspay refers to
as "Your Holiness" -- a type of "Pope" evidently. They even keep
their "Divine Bomb" in the ruins of St. Patrick's Cathedral. In
addition to using a "false" Vision utilizing religious imagery to
attempt to ward off the advance of the Ape Army, they also ultimately
rely on their "god" (or, His "instrument") to defeat their enemy.
Despite viewing themselves as superior to the "primitive" humans (and
the "animals" who are invading their territory), they have a "faith"
in a "god" which is ludicrous (from a Rational perspective).

The conflict in Vietnam -- merely one "theatre" of combat against the
falling dominos in the ideological war between the U.S. and the
Communists -- was able to happen, in part, because there were those
in the realm of Organized Religion who approved of WAR as a solution
to the 'problem' of a world where not everybody worships the same god
(or any at all). Didn't Billy Graham meet with every President since
FDR or Truman, to provide his Scripture-based 'wisdom' to the leader
of the 'Free World'? Didn't the pro-War advocates during Vietnam
(including the John Birchers, et al.) oppose Communism predominantly
because Communism was seen as "anti-religion"?

Frankly, I don't see any "ham handed nonsense" in BENEATH's political
elements. Dehn and Abrahams told a story that was, undoubtedly, taken
to an absurd extreme -- but that's exactly what SATIRE is supposed to
be! Anybody who's read Swift should be able to see that! Doesn't
Gulliver intervene in a war between the Big-Enders and the Little-
Enders -- a conflict that ultimately is about which side of an egg
should be cracked open first, the 'big' end or the 'little' one?
Doesn't "A MODEST PROPOSAL" treat the problem of poverty in Ireland
by offering an absurdly extreme solution in the most 'reasonable' of
arguments, the cannibalization of the Irish?

PLANET was a sci-fi Satire. So, too, was BENEATH -- and some might
say that BENEATH was even truer as a Satire than was PLANET. Not that
it makes it "as good" as PLANET, let alone "better" -- but it was
true to the satirical thrust that PLANET started. That made it MORE
than just another "adventure among the monkeys" that Heston thought
it would only be. And that distinguishes it from the rest of the
sequels: it's one thing to comment on the religio-political topics of
the day (as all the POTA sequels do, following PLANET's lead), but to
do so Satirically... that, only BENEATH managed to accomplish. And
the penultimate bloodbath followed by the push-of-a-button ultimate
ending made BENEATH a film that everybody remembers. Kubrick ended
the world in "DR. STRANGELOVE" by making it a comical farce. BENEATH
depicted the end of the world in a starker, more violent and shocking
way. And, if you watch it again, you'll notice that there is no
attempt to heighten the tension of those last scenes with the use of
a manipulative music score. BENEATH didn't need to beef up the
tension by having Rosenman cook up some exciting music cues. It
almost feels "truer" by NOT having music there to add an unreal
element.

Goddammit, I love BENEATH, warts & all! And it torques me off to see
anybody bash it. They had, what, a year or so to crank it out? To
come up with a script that would make the minimal use of Heston that
he would allow, telling a story that could take the world of PLANET
and extrapolate it into something the audience hadn't seen before,
rather than just be a re-hash of same-ol'-same-ol'... Why the f***
can't POTA fans give it a f***ing break??? Maurice Evans thought it
was BETTER than the first film -- and, while I'm not agreeing with
him that it is, I can see why HE might think so. I think that he
thought that people should watch the movie, get a load of those mask-
wearing radiation-scarred ugly-ass Mutants and ask themselves: "Are
those 'things'... are they like us? Are we, deep down, just as
goddamned ugly as those bomb-worshipping freaks?"

Last thing: if BENEATH hadn't been the financial success it was -- as
well as a popular film in its own right -- then there would be no
more PLANET OF THE APES movies, the TV show, the Marvel 29-issue run,
NONE OF THAT! Some, like Rory, might've preferred it that way. But
most, I think, are glad to have ESCAPE, CONQUEST, and BATTLE, not to
mention the cartoon, the TV show, etc. And would we have the Neil-
drawn "BEWARE THE BEAST" & "WITHIN" etc??? ALL of that owes its
existence to BENEATH.

Patrick Michael Tilton with his friggin' dander up!
EARTH-TIME 03-29-2006

Weird ‘eh?   Maybe it was just the best print he had seen so it seemed really good – or they didn’t use the right one!

Didn’t I read somewhere that the “IMPROVED” Return DVDs would be released later?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 9:05 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Question About Ultimate POTA

> I know for sure Ken Taylor (the Aussie behind the first ever VHS
release
> of the TV Show - he worked at Fox) has seen masters of RETURN at
Fox (on
> VHS) and commented that they were as clean as the TV Show masters.
> 
> Michael
> 

This is so not true!!  Its like watching an old 8mm movie back in
school with the cracks and lines on the screen.

Oh Rory you big drama queen!  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 10:48 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Stop bashing BENEATH, gawd dammit!

In a message dated 3/29/06 4:11:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Goddammit, I love BENEATH, warts & all! And it torques me off to see
anybody bash it. They had, what, a year or so to crank it out? To
come up with a script that would make the minimal use of Heston that
he would allow, telling a story that could take the world of PLANET
and extrapolate it into something the audience hadn't seen before,
rather than just be a re-hash of same-ol'-same-ol'... Why the f***
can't POTA fans give it a f***ing break???

Because the truth of its incredible suckiness is plain to see -- for the average mentality -- but then YOU are average, are you?

BENEATH.... Damn it all to hell that it ever got made!

-- Rory

It could have been better.

Burton ’s movie SUCKED!

Sorry, Burton movie fans!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 10:44 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Stop bashing BENEATH, gawd dammit!

In a message dated 3/29/06 4:11:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

*** What is this, BENEATH-bashing month? Don't I get enough of that
from Rory? And what's-his-name, the jerk who wrote that review that T
posted a link to last week?

Don't you give anyone orders, Patrick!

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!!!!

Most of the people on the planet, INCLUDING MOST OF THOSE THAT MADE THE MOVIE (though dead many of them may be), thought BENEATH was.... kind of... you know.... sucky... I mean, how better to say it?

IT SUCKED!

-- Rory

She only got a very small roll T.

For pure escapism, Beneath is great.

If you analyse it too much – it becomes less fun.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LordTZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, 30 March 2006 11:15 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Stop bashing BENEATH, gawd dammit!

Kim didn't like it either.

Yes, and Planet has its problems too, under scrutiny.

One thing that bugs me – do people see POTA (the movie series) as a parallel universe?

I always thought it should be OUR world, not a fantasy world where there is a female president (as in the TV Show – played by Sandra Bullock).

But sensibly, it CAN only be an alternative universe.

That’s why I like the “changed timeline” theory.

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 9:47 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Stop bashing BENEATH, gawd dammit!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:
> For pure escapism, Beneath is great.
> If you analyse it too much - it becomes less fun.

-- Really though if you analyse any of the Apes stuff (Movies, TV
etc.) too much it becomes a lot less fun and pretty silly.

Neil

What’s the quality on the new Extended BATTLE like?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tshaf37@...
Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 10:32 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Stop bashing BENEATH, gawd dammit!

Tom

I know Neil GETS bent often prior to drawing!  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rich Handley
Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 11:39 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Digest Number 2103

>From: Haristas@...
>This comes as no surprise, given the bent of your comics!
>-- Rory


Now, see, you should never bend your comics.

Precisely.

That’s why it makes more sense to me that our time is PRE-Planet and then after the ape-o-nauts escape, things are all different....

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 12:24 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Stop bashing POTA, gawd dammit!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:
> But sensibly, it CAN only be an alternative universe.

-- Why do you say that then? Is it because time has caught up with and
passed some things that have happened in some of the films?

We are writing “ Apeback Mountain ” as I type....  J

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 12:25 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Digest Number 2103

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:
>
> I know Neil GETS bent often prior to drawing!  :-)
> 
You two kinky kids and your crazy lifestyle. Whatever you have to do
to keep him motivated, Michael. :)






> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Rich Handley
> Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 11:39 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Digest Number 2103
> 
>
> >From: Haristas@...
> >This comes as no surprise, given the bent of your comics!
> >-- Rory
>
>
> Now, see, you should never bend your comics.
>
> --
>

No – I meant you get high! 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil
Sent: Friday, 31 March 2006 12:33 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Digest Number 2103

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "John" <DrZaiusDavis@...> wrote:
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@> wrote:
> >
> > Neil GETS bent often prior to drawing!  :-)
> > 
> You two kinky kids and your crazy lifestyle. Whatever you have to do
> to keep him motivated, Michael. :)

-- I'm sure Michael meant to write - 'Neil gets into an artistic bent
often prior to drawing!'

Bendy Neil