.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2006 1:22 PM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com; potadg@yahoogroups.com; friends & fugitives
Subject: [PotaDG] Marvel UK 80

Issue 80 is now available to download from Hunter's site. Jason versus Brutus in an exciting knock-down drag-out fight! Another thrilling chapter in the Terror storyline. Alas, it will be our last one for a while, as next week we return to the Future History Chronicles.

<.html

I did just win it....I'll let you know when It
comes....

--- Michael Whitty <whitty@...> wrote:

> Hmmm.....I have one Tim!
>
> But mine was a bit out of synch ;ast time I
> checked....let me know how
> yours is (if you win!).
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 2:38 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Group Projects - people
> sharing their stuff.....
>
> Ok I just bid on a talking view master viewer so I
> can
> finally HEAR the talking POTA view master
> reels......!
> I wonder if there will be anyway to transfer it and
> share it.......? If I win the thing.....;)
> Tim
>
> --- Greg Plonowski <urko3085@...> wrote:
>
> > Well, the next project I worked on was the UK
> > Annuals for Kassidy's site, but I'm not sure if
> that
> > came before, after or during Beware the Beast.
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > Michael Whitty <whitty@...> wrote:
> >
> > I knew I was forgetting someone!
> >
> > What was the next project Greg?
> >
> > Michael
>
> --
>

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Feldstein [Steve.Feldstein@...]
Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 9:47 AM
To: Neil T Foster
Subject: Re: Planet of the Apes DVD releases

I’m sorry that your email has not been answered.  I’ve forwarded it myself to a colleague to provide the answers.  We’ll try this again.


On 4/26/06 2:00 PM, "Neil T Foster" <nfoster@...> wrote:

Hi Steve,
 
Not sure if you received my previous email and I do realise you must be a very busy man but as I have been informed that you are the person to contact regarding Planet of the Apes releases I was wondering if you could please answer a couple of questions regarding the new POTA DVD releases.
 
It seems as though the promised commercials for the TV series have not been included in the new releases of the POTA DVDs. Would there be a reason for this?
 
Also is it possible to get confirmation of the release date of the Return to the Planet of the Apes cartoon series (it was advertised that it would be released separately at a later date)?
 
Thanks very much for your time and help. I and the members of our 'Apes' discussion group look forward to hearing your answers,
 
Neil T. Foster
Co-owner Planet of the Apes Discussion Group
(http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/ <http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/> )
 

Steven Feldstein
SVP, Corporate and Marketing Communications
TWENTIETH CENTURY FOX HOME ENTERTAINMENT
TEL:  310-369-5369
FAX:  310-369-5262
E:  steve.feldstein@...

<.html

Let's start a petition!!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil T Foster" <nfoster@...> wrote:
>
> Well I tried to get some answers out of Mr. Feldstein (again) but
it is
> beginning to look like he knows nothing!
>
> Lets hope his colleague is a bit more forthcoming with
information...
>
> Neil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Feldstein [Steve.Feldstein@...]
> Sent: Thursday, 27 April 2006 9:47 AM
> To: Neil T Foster
> Subject: Re: Planet of the Apes DVD releases
>
>
> I'm sorry that your email has not been answered. I've forwarded it
> myself to a colleague to provide the answers. We'll try this again.
>
>
> On 4/26/06 2:00 PM, "Neil T Foster" <nfoster@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Not sure if you received my previous email and I do realise you
must be
> a very busy man but as I have been informed that you are the person
to
> contact regarding Planet of the Apes releases I was wondering if you
> could please answer a couple of questions regarding the new POTA DVD
> releases.
>
> It seems as though the promised commercials for the TV series have
not
> been included in the new releases of the POTA DVDs. Would there be a
> reason for this?
>
> Also is it possible to get confirmation of the release date of the
> Return to the Planet of the Apes cartoon series (it was advertised
that
> it would be released separately at a later date)?
>
> Thanks very much for your time and help. I and the members of
our 'Apes'
> discussion group look forward to hearing your answers,
>
> Neil T. Foster
> Co-owner Planet of the Apes Discussion Group
> (http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/
> <http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/>
> <http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/> )
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Steven Feldstein
> SVP, Corporate and Marketing Communications
> TWENTIETH CENTURY FOX HOME ENTERTAINMENT
> TEL: 310-369-5369
> FAX: 310-369-5262
> E: steve.feldstein@...
>

.html.html In a message dated 4/26/06 8:38:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

Let's start a petition!!

At least you keep trying.  Hey, I finally got a Jerry Goldsmith commentary.  It only took ten years of writing letters to Fox!

-- Rory<.html <.html

Attachments :

.html.html Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just finished.  The front cover is from the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to use the album's back cover since it's just a collection of black and white photos.  Instead, I just gathered a hodgepodge of stuff.  Not the greatest, but then BENEATH is kind of a hodgepodge itself.

-- Rory<.html<.html

.html

In a message dated 4/26/2006 4:04:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nfoster@... writes:

I was looking through the old comics yesterday and had forgotten about the art for the first part of the Battle adaptation, it is really very good

 

Speaking of artwork, how's the comic coming along, Neil?

 

 

<.html

.html <.html

.html <.html

.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:29:04 PM Central Standard Time, Haristas@... writes:

Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just finished.  The front cover is from the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to use the album's back cover since it's just a collection of black and white photos.  Instead, I just gathered a hodgepodge of stuff.  Not the greatest, but then BENEATH is kind of a hodgepodge itself.


This is pretty cool... I especially like the front cover... The back is neat too, but I guess I need the "unnecessary movie description" to really visualize it...

One thing... Even though the original poster and the soundtrack LP both show the Mutant on them, maybe you shouldn't have used the mutant picture on the back, only because seeing them fully may ruin the "surprise" of them for those who have never seen the film (much like the use of the Statue of Liberty ruins PLANET for first time viewers...)<.html <.html

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the PotaDG
group.

File : /New DVD covers/DVD Cover Beneath.jpg
Uploaded by : munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/New%20DVD%20covers/DVD%20Cover%20Beneath.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@... wrote:

> Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just finished. The front cover

is from the 1970 soundtrack LP,

-- Very nicely done again Rory. The only problem I have with this is
the use of the LP cover which I never really liked.

The big question now is what LP covers will you use for Escape,
Conquest & Battle? ;-)

Neil

.html <.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Haristas@... wrote:

> At least you keep trying.

-- Yeah I keep trying and trying to get information out of this guy
but get nothing. Seems he may not be the 'go to person' at Fox about
Apes after all (or maybe only gives out info to certain people or
something?)

> Hey, I finally got a Jerry Goldsmith commentary.
> It only took ten years of writing letters to Fox!

-- You should have just got a small petition together, would have got
results a lot quicker apparently! ;-)

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , TZer0@... wrote:

> Speaking of artwork, how's the comic coming along, Neil?

-- Ummm, which one?

Neil

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the PotaDG
group.

File : /Uncle Manny's Musings/UMM 22.jpg
Uploaded by : munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>
Description :

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Uncle%20Manny%27s%20Musings/UMM%2022.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

munkeyman63au <nfoster@...>

.html <.html

Attachments :

.html <.html

Attachments :

At last! The photo the group have been waiting for. I finally got it!!
I also have two more photos to scan.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: mlccougar@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:19:00 EDT
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover

In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:29:04 PM Central Standard Time,
Haristas@... writes:

Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just finished. The front cover is
from the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to use the album's back
cover since it's just a collection of black and white photos. Instead,
I just gathered a hodgepodge of stuff. Not the greatest, but then
BENEATH is kind of a hodgepodge itself.


This is pretty cool... I especially like the front cover... The back
is neat too, but I guess I need the "unnecessary movie description" to
really visualize it...

One thing... Even though the original poster and the soundtrack LP
both show the Mutant on them, maybe you shouldn't have used the mutant
picture on the back, only because seeing them fully may ruin the
"surprise" of them for those who have never seen the film (much like
the use of the Statue of Liberty ruins PLANET for first time
viewers...)
--------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "PotaDG" on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--------

Attachments :

Here's photo number 2.

-----Original Message-----
From: PofTAfan@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:26:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover

At last! The photo the group have been waiting for. I finally got
it!!
I also have two more photos to scan.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: mlccougar@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:19:00 EDT
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover

In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:29:04 PM Central Standard Time,
Haristas@... writes:

Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just finished. The front cover
is
from the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to use the album's back
cover since it's just a collection of black and white photos. Instead,
I just gathered a hodgepodge of stuff. Not the greatest, but then
BENEATH is kind of a hodgepodge itself.


This is pretty cool... I especially like the front cover... The back
is neat too, but I guess I need the "unnecessary movie description" to
really visualize it...

One thing... Even though the original poster and the soundtrack LP
both show the Mutant on them, maybe you shouldn't have used the mutant
picture on the back, only because seeing them fully may ruin the
"surprise" of them for those who have never seen the film (much like
the use of the Statue of Liberty ruins PLANET for first time
viewers...)
--------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "PotaDG" on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--------







Yahoo! Groups Links





Attached Image: Zira,_Galen012.jpg

[Image removed]

.html.html In a message dated 4/27/06 10:24:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:

One thing... Even though the original poster and the soundtrack LP both show the Mutant on them, maybe you shouldn't have used the mutant picture on the back, only because seeing them fully may ruin the "surprise" of them for those who have never seen the film (much like the use of the Statue of Liberty ruins PLANET for first time viewers...)

You may be right there.<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 4/27/06 4:51:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nfoster@... writes:

-- Very nicely done again Rory. The only problem I have with this is
the use of the LP cover which I never really liked.

I've never liked it either.  I just did it because someone in the other group requested it.
<.html<.html

Attachments :

here is the final photo.

-----Original Message-----
From: PofTAfan@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:35:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover

Here's photo number 2.

-----Original Message-----
From: PofTAfan@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 20:26:21 -0400
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover

At last! The photo the group have been waiting for. I finally got
it!!
I also have two more photos to scan.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: mlccougar@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:19:00 EDT
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover

In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:29:04 PM Central Standard Time,
Haristas@... writes:

Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just finished. The front cover
is
from the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to use the album's back
cover since it's just a collection of black and white photos. Instead,
I just gathered a hodgepodge of stuff. Not the greatest, but then
BENEATH is kind of a hodgepodge itself.


This is pretty cool... I especially like the front cover... The back
is neat too, but I guess I need the "unnecessary movie description" to
really visualize it...

One thing... Even though the original poster and the soundtrack LP
both show the Mutant on them, maybe you shouldn't have used the mutant
picture on the back, only because seeing them fully may ruin the
"surprise" of them for those who have never seen the film (much like
the use of the Statue of Liberty ruins PLANET for first time
viewers...)
--------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "PotaDG" on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--------







Yahoo! Groups Links





Attached Image: Zira,_Galen012.jpg

[Image removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links





Attached Image: Cornelius_013.jpg

[Image removed]

.html.html In a message dated 4/27/06 8:36:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PofTAfan@... writes:

Here's photo number 2.

That's a really cool photo.  That's a costume test shot of McDowall.  I've never seen it before.

-- Rory<.html <.html

i don't know if that Roddy McDowell or David Watson. But it is a very
cool photo.

kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Haristas@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 21:01:13 EDT
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Beneath DVD Cover

In a message dated 4/27/06 8:36:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
PofTAfan@... writes:


Here's photo number 2.


That's a really cool photo. That's a costume test shot of McDowall.
I've never seen it before.

-- Rory

SPONSORED LINKS
Fantasy science fiction Science fiction books Science fiction book
club
Science fiction magazine Science fiction novel Writing science
fiction

--------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

* Visit your group "PotaDG" on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--------

.html.html In a message dated 4/27/06 9:12:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PofTAfan@... writes:

i don't know if that Roddy McDowell or David Watson. But it is a very
cool photo.

kevin

Oh, that's McDowall all right.  April or May, 1967.

-- Rory<.html <.html

I don't know what's funnier... the musing or the anouncement!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil T Foster" <nfoster@...> wrote:
>
> Well it is Friday again so that can only mean that a new UNCLE MANNY'S
> MUSINGS is now available. Thanks again to all who contributed.
>
> The Muse can be viewed by clicking the link on the Group's Yahoo home
> page or directly with this link:
> http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Uncle%20Manny%27s%
20Mu
> sings/ <http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/files/LFTL.htm>
>
> Have a good weekend everyone!
>
>
> Neil
>

.html

In a message dated 4/27/2006 4:03:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nfoster@... writes:

-- Ummm, which one?

 

Never mind.

 

 

<.html

.html

In a message dated 4/27/2006 7:26:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, PofTAfan@... writes:

The photo the group have been waiting for. I finally got it!!

 

Wow!  I never really realized

just how short his assistant is.

She must be under 5 feet tall.

 

<.html

.html <.html

I actually have been looking for that pic! Where did
you get it? ebay?

Tim

--- PofTAfan@... wrote:

> At last! The photo the group have been waiting for.
> I finally got it!!
> I also have two more photos to scan.
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mlccougar@...
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:19:00 EDT
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover
>
> In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:29:04 PM
> Central Standard Time,
> Haristas@... writes:
>
> Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just
> finished. The front cover is
> from the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to
> use the album's back
> cover since it's just a collection of black and
> white photos. Instead,
> I just gathered a hodgepodge of stuff. Not the
> greatest, but then
> BENEATH is kind of a hodgepodge itself.
>
>
> This is pretty cool... I especially like the front
> cover... The back
> is neat too, but I guess I need the "unnecessary
> movie description" to
> really visualize it...
>
> One thing... Even though the original poster and
> the soundtrack LP
> both show the Mutant on them, maybe you shouldn't
> have used the mutant
> picture on the back, only because seeing them fully
> may ruin the
> "surprise" of them for those who have never seen the
> film (much like
> the use of the Statue of Liberty ruins PLANET for
> first time
> viewers...)
> --------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "PotaDG" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> --------
>
>
>
>
>

I have the orangutang version of this costume
check./..I will post that soon.....

--- PofTAfan@... wrote:

> Here's photo number 2.
>

Attachments :

Here are other color costume tests.....that's Joe Wong
as the orangutang......

Tim

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/27/06 8:36:56 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time, PofTAfan@...
> writes:
>
>
> > Here's photo number 2.
> >
>
> That's a really cool photo. That's a costume test
> shot of McDowall. I've
> never seen it before.
>
> -- Rory
>

Attachments :

Here are costume test shots of Natalie, Felix Silla,
Paul Lambert, a mutant extra, Roddy as Caesar, a
female chimp (actress named Tiare?), and the very cute
assistant to Dr. Galen who I was wondering about just
the other day...can anyone make out her name?

Tim

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/27/06 8:36:56 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time, PofTAfan@...
> writes:
>
>
> > Here's photo number 2.
> >
>
> That's a really cool photo. That's a costume test
> shot of McDowall. I've
> never seen it before.
>
> -- Rory
>

it might be just an unknown actor that they hired for
tests like Joe Wong....Is that Linda in the Nova test
that I sent?

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/27/06 9:12:09 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time, PofTAfan@...
> writes:
>
>
> > i don't know if that Roddy McDowell or David
> Watson. But it is a very
> > cool photo.
> >
> > kevin
> >
>
> Oh, that's McDowall all right. April or May, 1967.
>
> -- Rory
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , mlccougar@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 4/25/2006 10:02:45 AM Central Standard Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:
>
> > Honorius states flatly that the 1st Article of Faith is that "God

created the Ape in His own image" etc. God is NOT an Ape, but created
the Ape to look just like Him, in other words.

>
> If they don't see their God as an ape, then why would they say that

he created the apes in his own image??? Their God would have to be an
ape for this to be true...

---------------------------------------------------------

*** Just for the sake of this discussion, Cougar, let's pretend that
Honorius is correct -- that there IS a god who created the Universe,
the Earth, and all life on it, okay?

Honorius said (quoting that First Article of Faith) that "the
Almighty created the APE in His own image... gave him [the ape] a
soul and a mind... set him apart from the beasts of the jungle and
made him the lord of the planet."

In other words, according to those official beliefs of the simian
Credo, there was a time when God existed and Apes had not -- as of
yet -- been created. There WERE no apes in existence -- just God. And
THEN, this God CREATED the Apes (presumably starting with one
individual ape, since Honorius goes on to use the 1st person direct
object pronoun ["him"] when he says that God gave HIM (that
simian 'Adam', whatever he was named) a soul and a mind, etc.

If there was a time when apes did not yet exist -- before God had
made them -- then how could that God BE an ape? From a simian
theologian's viewpoint, God doesn't look like an ape: the Ape (or,
the first ape, at least) was made to look like God. The distinction
is an important one. Just like anti-evolutionist Creationists who
believe in the literal 'truth' of Genesis, those apes believe that
their simian features are INHERITED from the 1st ape ("Proteus"?),
who got HIS features from God Himself.

Nobody in the Judeo-Christian tradition believes that the God of the
Bible literally IS a man -- they only believe that God made Adam (the
first man) in His image. Adam was made to look like God -- maybe the
God of Genesis thought that Adam would behave himself if he looked
just like his creator ("He wouldn't disobey the master in whose image
he was made, would he?" thinks Jehovah...)

Artistic depictions of the Biblical god invariably show 'Him' looking
like a bearded white man (like in Michelangelo's famous painting on
the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, with Adam reaching out his left
hand to touch the right hand of God... just like Chuck painted it
in "THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY"). But just because the Bible's god
LOOKS like a man doesn't mean that He IS a man.

Likewise, the simian god Honorius believes in may LOOK like an ape --
since Apes were made "in His image" -- but that doesn't mean that He
IS an ape. The four heads on Mt. Rushmore may LOOK like presidents
Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and (Teddy) Roosevelt, but they are a
mountain, not men. They LOOK like men, but they ain't men. They were
created to look like those guys.

When Zira tells Taylor that "all men look alike to most apes", it
bears remembering that apes view their own simian features to be a
reflection of their divine origin. God made the APE in His own image,
and any "perverted scientist" who would DARE to question that and to
propose that the Ape is the product of evolution is advancing
an "insidious" theory that must be scientific heresy.

I wonder if the apes ever argue WHICH species of Ape their God most
resembles. Was the simian 'Adam' created with the features of a
Chimpanzee, an Orangutan, or a Gorilla? Or, was there a time when the
original Ape family looked unlike either of those three Ape-types,
and that population diverged... changing into those three
distince 'racial' divisions?

It used to be widely believed in Judeo-Christian circles that Adam
was a White man -- the name "Adam" meaning "red", as in "ruddy-
complexion" (able to blush, in other words), and that the different
races came about as a result of the events following the Flood. Noah
(also a white man -- "pure in his generations") begat 3 sons: Shem
(ancestor of the Semitic peoples who populated the Middle East and
Asia), Ham (ancestor of the so-called "Hamitic" peoples, the black-
skinned people who predominate in Africa), and Japheth (the ancestor
of the Europeans, cognate with the Greek mythical character Iapetos).
According to Genesis, Noah suffered some undescribed 'sin' committed
on him by his "youngest" son. It's rather confusing in the text, but
it seems that there are two main explanations for what is supposed to
have happened.

The first explanation is that Ham (presumably the "youngest son") had
CASTRATED Noah (while his dad was passed out from drinking too much
wine) -- the same way that various Greek gods had literally castrated
their parents in order to usurp the position as "top god". Robert
Graves (who co-wrote a book called "HEBREW MYTHS") thinks this is
what the Genesis story implies -- in Genesis it only says that "Ham,
the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father" (9:22). So he
saw his naughty bits... so what? Well, if he did more than SEE
them... if he hacked 'em OFF, then that would be rather nasty.

The second explanation is that Ham -- described as the father of
Canaan -- had impregnated Noah's wife. His own mother. Incest. In
LEVITICUS (18:7-8) it says: "You shall not uncover the nakedness of
your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your
mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness. You shall not uncover
the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness."
In other words, the phrase "father's nakedness" figuratively referred
not to HIS literal naked body but, rather, to the naked body of his
wife (and, since men owned their wives back then, the naked body of a
wife literally belonged to the husband).

So, then, Ham seems to have taken advantage of the fact that his dad,
Noah, was passed out from boozin' it up... and he "uncovered the
nakedness of his father" -- literally meaning his MOTHER'S naked
body -- and had sex with her. And THIS seems to be how Ham became the
father of Canaan: Canaan was Noah's wife's grandson AND son, as well
as Noah's grandson AND step-son through incest. No wonder, then, that
Noah cursed Canaan rather than his own creepy son, Ham. Noah didn't
want Canaan to have a portion in any inheritance, since he wasn't
literally borne from his wife from his own seed but, rather, through
the seed of his incestuous son.

I always thought it was kinda mean that Canaan should be cursed,
since it wasn't HIS fault that his father begot him incestuously. And
yet he -- and all those uncounted people who supposedly descended
from him -- were to suffer a curse. The Canaanites were to suffer the
horrors of the invading Israelites after the post-Exodus wandering in
the desert, when "the land of the Canaanites" was renamed "the
Promised Land", and God gave the Israelites permission -- ordered
them, really -- to slaughter the Canaanites. All 'cuz Noah cursed
their ancestor for having been born through incestuous bastardy,
which was Ham's fault, not his. Ah well, that's biblical (im-)
morality for ya.

Did the 3 types of Apes take on different physiological features, one
wonders, after some similar Catastrophe myth, when a simian 'Noah'
figure begat three apes who would be the progenitors of the Chimps,
the Orangs, and the Gorillas? How would Honorius or Zaius explain the
differences between the 3 types of Apes, if ALL apes descended from a
first 'Adam'-type ape?

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , Greg Plonowski <urko3085@...> wrote:

>
> Well, if the images of the war were 'beamed' to the developing

brain of Zira's unborn child, it's possible that the mutant did some
unconscious editing of the images and sent the image of the bomb that
was more familiar to him or her, which would be the bomb standing
upright.

*** Yeah, I guess that might make sense, especially if this
hypothetical mutant didn't want to imagine (literally, make
an "image" in his own mind) his or her 'God' brought low and humbled.
He/she might well have CONSCIOUSLY edited the telepathically
broadcasted image into baby Caesar's brain, so as to show it in its
proud state of erection ;) I vote that we name this hypothetical
mutant "Viagra". Mendez, Caspay, Albina, Ongoro, Viagra... it fits,
don't it???

>
> While I'm skeptical of Caesar's dreams of the war and his

parents, I'm willing to give Ty the benefit of the doubt and wait and
see where they're going with this. What's more intriguing to me than
the dreams, however, is the ability Caesar shows to easily train the
animals in Armando's circus. Goes a long way to explain how he was
able to organize the apes so quickly and easily in Conquest.

>
> Greg

*** Yeah, I agree, it sure seems like they're trying to give Caesar
some extra-special powers here, to make it seem like he literally has
those "emperor Ape" powers which he compared to a "tiny, mindless
insect like the Emperor Moth" -- able to communicate with other
rebellious apes over a distance even greater than 80 miles.

In a way, this reminds me of how the evil Emperor (in STAR WARS
Episode 6, RETURN OF THE JEDI) was supposed to have had psychicly
micromanaged the battles of his imperial forces, according to the
Timothy Zaun novels, anyway. Zaun, if I remember 'em right, describes
how the loss to the rebels during that second Death Star battle at
Endor was owing to the fact that his forces were accustomed to
being 'controlled' by his Dark Side of the Force, as if they were
chess pieces in the hands of a chessmaster... and when Darth turned
on him and killed him, his control over those puppets was suddenly

>GONE< and they were then like fish outta water.

Like I said before, I'm not AGAINST what Ty's doing in this new comic
book, and I too will give him the benefit of the doubt, not having
seen the whole story told. But I already can't consider it 'canon' --
for reasons above and beyond my previous points. Even though I'm
a "West Coast" type (i.e. I consider CONQUEST and BATTLE to be
situated in a port city on the West Coast of "North America", rather
than on the East Coast), I do NOT consider San Diego to BE that city
where Breck is "Governor". Furthermore, Ty has renamed him "Arnold
Breck" -- which is a change from the "Jason Breck" that has been
around at least since John Jakes' novelization. Ty, obviously, is
making a not-too-subtle comparison to California's current Governor,
Arnold Schwarzenegger, so "Jason" becomes "Arnold".

I also have a hard time buying into that scene in issue #2, where
Zaius is present at one of Cornelius' dig sites, not to mention Zira.
Zira was an Animal Psychologist, not an Archaologist -- so what would
SHE be doing at this dig-site? In PLANET, she tells the still-mute
Taylor about how Cornelius had found traces of an ancient
civilization older than recorded time on HIS trip to the Forbidden
Zone the year before... HIS trip, not THEIR trip. She didn't go along
on that trip, it seems to me; so, having her present at this dig-site
in the comic just doesn't ring true to me.

Also, there's a picture of another chimp brushing the dust off a
HUMAN doll (panel 1 on page 29), which seems to suggest that this is
either the SAME doll seen in the 1st movie ["Ma-ma!"], or it isn't
the first human doll to be excavated by a chimp archaeologist...
which makes me wonder why Zira would make such a big deal out of the
one found in the Cave, before she knew that it could talk. If Zaius
were present at such a dig -- knowing that artifacts from the pre-
Lawgiver times were in abundance -- then he would shut it down
immediately, not merely confiscating those particular items that he
knows are 'dangerous' to their society's status quo, pretending that
they're prank forgeries, but preventing the uncovering of any more
objects that he can't risk being exposed to any ape's view.

It was an interesting scene, and I can see why Ty and the others MR.
COMICS thought it would be fun to see, but I don't think it fits in
well with what had already been established in PLANET. So, to me it
ain't canon... but that's alright. I don't consider the Moench-
written stories in MARVEL to be canon, either. But I'm still glad
they're around, since they ARE quite enjoyable, especially with
magnificent art by Mike Ploog to flesh 'em out.

Patrick

P.S. Ty should hire a better proofreader! In issue 2, page 7, he has
Caesar say: "Why, a tiny, mindless insect like the Emperor MORTH can
communicate..." etc. Morth? How'd that "R" get in there, Ty? Some
people pronounce the name "Washington" as "Warshington"... is that
what's goin' on here? Did the proofreader read "MOTH" and hear it in
his/her head as "MORTH" and then write it with the "R"...? ;)

.html <.html

Anybody catch Lou Wagner last night on "My Name is
Earl"? He may be older but when he opens his mouth he
still sounds exactly like Lucius!!

Yes. I got those pics from Ebay.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim "apefan" <apefan23@...>
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 07:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover

I actually have been looking for that pic! Where did
you get it? ebay?

Tim

--- PofTAfan@... wrote:

> At last! The photo the group have been waiting for.
> I finally got it!!
> I also have two more photos to scan.
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mlccougar@...
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:19:00 EDT
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover
>
> In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:29:04 PM
> Central Standard Time,
> Haristas@... writes:
>
> Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just
> finished. The front cover is
> from the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to
> use the album's back
> cover since it's just a collection of black and
> white photos. Instead,
> I just gathered a hodgepodge of stuff. Not the
> greatest, but then
> BENEATH is kind of a hodgepodge itself.
>
>
> This is pretty cool... I especially like the front
> cover... The back
> is neat too, but I guess I need the "unnecessary
> movie description" to
> really visualize it...
>
> One thing... Even though the original poster and
> the soundtrack LP
> both show the Mutant on them, maybe you shouldn't
> have used the mutant
> picture on the back, only because seeing them fully
> may ruin the
> "surprise" of them for those who have never seen the
> film (much like
> the use of the Statue of Liberty ruins PLANET for
> first time
> viewers...)
> --------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "PotaDG" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> --------
>
>
>
>
>

Yes. I got those pics from Ebay.

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim "apefan" <apefan23@...>
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 07:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover

I actually have been looking for that pic! Where did
you get it? ebay?

Tim

--- PofTAfan@... wrote:

> At last! The photo the group have been waiting for.
> I finally got it!!
> I also have two more photos to scan.
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mlccougar@...
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:19:00 EDT
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Beneath DVD Cover
>
> In a message dated 4/26/2006 10:29:04 PM
> Central Standard Time,
> Haristas@... writes:
>
> Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just
> finished. The front cover is
> from the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to
> use the album's back
> cover since it's just a collection of black and
> white photos. Instead,
> I just gathered a hodgepodge of stuff. Not the
> greatest, but then
> BENEATH is kind of a hodgepodge itself.
>
>
> This is pretty cool... I especially like the front
> cover... The back
> is neat too, but I guess I need the "unnecessary
> movie description" to
> really visualize it...
>
> One thing... Even though the original poster and
> the soundtrack LP
> both show the Mutant on them, maybe you shouldn't
> have used the mutant
> picture on the back, only because seeing them fully
> may ruin the
> "surprise" of them for those who have never seen the
> film (much like
> the use of the Statue of Liberty ruins PLANET for
> first time
> viewers...)
> --------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "PotaDG" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
> --------
>
>
>
>
>

.html
-- <.html

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--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , TZer0@... wrote:

> Never mind.

-- But I do mind! It is just that I am working on more than one comic
at the moment.

Neil

.html <.html

.html
-- <.html

.html

In a message dated 4/28/2006 9:37:47 A.M. Central Daylight Time, apefan23@... writes:

Felix Silla,

 

If that was Felix Silla

then Jerry Maren must have

been the chimp kid in the museum.

 

 

<.html

.html

In a message dated 4/28/2006 10:22:23 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nfoster@... writes:

-- But I do mind! It is just that I am working on more than one comic
at the moment.

Neil

 

That's okay.

 

 

<.html

.html

 

I was looking at the rather poor trivia section for POTA

on the IMDB, surely we can add to this.  But there was

one item of interest . . .

 

In 1968, the movie was originally rated "M" for Mature audience during its initial release (this is not to be confused with an "X"-rating). Only during the following theatrical (and drive-in) re-releases was it adjusted to a "G"-rating.

I thought it was a bit adult for a '60's G rated picture.

 

 

<.html

Attachments :

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Whitty
Sent: Saturday, 29 April 2006 3:15 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] New COMIC?!?!

Show us a bit of your.....COMIC!

<.html

Attachments :

.html
-- <.html

.html.html In a message dated 4/28/06 5:08:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, apefan23@... writes:

Anybody catch Lou Wagner last night on "My Name is
Earl"? He may be older but when he opens his mouth he
still sounds exactly like Lucius!!

Oh no!  I missed that, and I did see some of one of the shows they showed.  I think there were two episodes that night.

-- Rory<.html <.html

thanks for sharing all the costume test photos. Very nice. Most I
hadn't seen before.

Yeah I guess... I just noticed that the costume test
board says "Gorilla child" unless of course he played
both!

--- TZer0@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 4/28/2006 9:37:47 A.M. Central
> Daylight Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
>
> Felix Silla,
>
>
>
>
> If that was Felix Silla
> then Jerry Maren must have
> been the chimp kid in the museum.
>
>
>

NBC has been showing two episodes of Earl on
thursdays...the one at 8:30 is a repeat....

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/28/06 5:08:33 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
>
>
> > Anybody catch Lou Wagner last night on "My Name is
> > Earl"? He may be older but when he opens his mouth
> he
> > still sounds exactly like Lucius!!
> >
>
> Oh no! I missed that, and I did see some of one of
> the shows they showed. I
> think there were two episodes that night.
>
> -- Rory
>

You're welcome! If anyone has any others or finds
anymore...post them or at least send them to me!
Thanks!

Tim

--- John <DrZaiusDavis@...> wrote:

> thanks for sharing all the costume test photos. Very
> nice. Most I
> hadn't seen before.
>
>
>
>

.html.html In a message dated 4/29/06 11:04:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DrZaiusDavis@... writes:

thanks for sharing all the costume test photos. Very nice. Most I
hadn't seen before.

Yeah, those are great, and it reminds me of how cheap Fox is that they can't put a decent still gallery on any of the APES DVDs.  Imagine the images in their archive!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 4/29/06 11:16:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, apefan23@... writes:

Yeah I guess... I just noticed that the costume test
board says "Gorilla child" unless of course he played
both!

Jerry Maren was the chimp child, and Silla was the gorilla kid.

I think!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 4/29/06 11:25:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, apefan23@... writes:

NBC has been showing two episodes of Earl on
thursdays...the one at 8:30 is a repeat....

And that was the one Lou Wagner was on?  I only saw the last five minutes of the new episode.

-- Rory<.html <.html

tell me about it...they could have easily contacted
any of us much less Joe Russo ....between us all we
could have filled up a whole bonus disc!

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/29/06 11:04:19 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> DrZaiusDavis@... writes:
>
>
> > thanks for sharing all the costume test photos.
> Very nice. Most I
> > hadn't seen before.
> >
> >
>
> Yeah, those are great, and it reminds me of how
> cheap Fox is that they can't
> put a decent still gallery on any of the APES DVDs.
> Imagine the images in
> their archive!
>
> -- Rory
>

the wagner episode was a repeat as I had seen it
before....I'm sure DVDs of the show will be out soon
as it's such a hit

--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 4/29/06 11:25:25 AM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
>
>
> > NBC has been showing two episodes of Earl on
> > thursdays...the one at 8:30 is a repeat....
> >
>
> And that was the one Lou Wagner was on? I only saw
> the last five minutes of
> the new episode.
>
> -- Rory
>

.html

In a message dated 4/29/2006 3:23:17 A.M. Central Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

Looks like a building....and CLOUDS!  J

 

I was hoping for something from my story

but it is a nice looking building.

<.html

.html

In a message dated 4/29/2006 10:16:35 A.M. Central Daylight Time, apefan23@... writes:

Yeah I guess... I just noticed that the costume test
board says "Gorilla child" unless of course he played
both!

 

If that's the case who did Jerry Meren play?

I talked to him when I went to see Kim at

the film festival. I didn't even know he was

in it at the time.  I just though of him as

Munchkin.  Other wise I would have

asked him about who he played.

 

 

<.html

.html

In a message dated 4/29/2006 12:19:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time, apefan23@... writes:

tell me about it...they could have easily contacted
any of us much less Joe Russo ....between us all we
could have filled up a whole bonus disc!

 

Perhaps that should be one of the group projects.

Both Fox and those POTA snipers on eBay

would probably hate it if we made out own

image disc of all of our rarest stills.  Then

we'd never have to shop for them on eBay

again.  Or buy a new release just because

it came with a gallery.  Ha haa...Suckers!

 

<.html

Patrick,

I admire your intelligence and capability to explain the details so well.
I'm glad someone in this group has brought up a subject that is
significantly deep and interesting. I'm a real nut (banana) on evolution,
even going as far as taking an anthropology class, which actually turned out
to be a linguistic class.

I think your right in indicating that God wasn't actually an ape, or from a
human point, a man. When I thingk about the image in referrence to God, I
think about an intelligence that affords humans the capability to have
relationships and exercise the power of love. (This did not happen over
night.) The bible is a puzzle made out the fabric of story that our brains
naturally weave. Yes, the bible is collection of a historical documents
pasted together in the sequence of time. However, some of these so called
events are more like parables. (Jesus used parables.) Because of the fossils
of our ancestors and science, I belive Genises is a parable that speaks the
truth in a sematic way. When reading between the lines, I ask not who is
God is, but what is God? The great designer? (Intelligent design)
Certainly, what ever he/she/it is has the intelligence to create, to world
build, and to love. Thus is dreamer who dreams the dreamer; the image of God
--- the image of ourselves.

The apes resembling us, having brains much like our own, would pretty much
have the same capability to create story so explain their orgins, mimicing
ours. ( Joseph Campbell's "Power of Myth", which I'm sure you have read,
does well to explain the signifcants of how we are creatures of story.).To
make apes lord of the planet, they would naturally and inevitably adopt our
so called Western and Plato attidutes, placing themselves above everything,
exculding possibilities that hold truth or truths that would make animals
--- humans practically equal in the universe. Such attitudes are glue for
the apes. They need to keep the humans beneath them so that three species
will not war against each other. Hate for one particular thing is pretty
powerful adhedsive.

A good example of this so called glue, is your mention of Canaan. I agree
with you. I am sure the Canaans were hardly a rightous or even friendly
people. However, to belittle a people because they a rose from somebody's
sin is absolutely wrong and injust. Noah boozing it up and Ham got horney
for his mom is just lame excuse to take away these people's land. (Joseph
Campbell also talks about how men love their mothers and hate their
fathers.) Because of these attitudes, we are still killing each other under
God's name. When will we ever learn!

Wendy

>From: "patrickmichaeltilton" <patrickmichaeltilton@...>
>Reply-To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
>To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [PotaDG] God and Ape
>Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 16:42:32 -0000
>
>--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 4/25/2006 10:02:45 AM Central Standard Time,
> > patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:
> >
> > > Honorius states flatly that the 1st Article of Faith is that "God
>created the Ape in His own image" etc. God is NOT an Ape, but created
>the Ape to look just like Him, in other words.
> >
> > If they don't see their God as an ape, then why would they say that
>he created the apes in his own image??? Their God would have to be an
>ape for this to be true...
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>
>*** Just for the sake of this discussion, Cougar, let's pretend that
>Honorius is correct -- that there IS a god who created the Universe,
>the Earth, and all life on it, okay?
>
>Honorius said (quoting that First Article of Faith) that "the
>Almighty created the APE in His own image... gave him [the ape] a
>soul and a mind... set him apart from the beasts of the jungle and
>made him the lord of the planet."
>
>In other words, according to those official beliefs of the simian
>Credo, there was a time when God existed and Apes had not -- as of
>yet -- been created. There WERE no apes in existence -- just God. And
>THEN, this God CREATED the Apes (presumably starting with one
>individual ape, since Honorius goes on to use the 1st person direct
>object pronoun ["him"] when he says that God gave HIM (that
>simian 'Adam', whatever he was named) a soul and a mind, etc.
>
>If there was a time when apes did not yet exist -- before God had
>made them -- then how could that God BE an ape? From a simian
>theologian's viewpoint, God doesn't look like an ape: the Ape (or,
>the first ape, at least) was made to look like God. The distinction
>is an important one. Just like anti-evolutionist Creationists who
>believe in the literal 'truth' of Genesis, those apes believe that
>their simian features are INHERITED from the 1st ape ("Proteus"?),
>who got HIS features from God Himself.
>
>Nobody in the Judeo-Christian tradition believes that the God of the
>Bible literally IS a man -- they only believe that God made Adam (the
>first man) in His image. Adam was made to look like God -- maybe the
>God of Genesis thought that Adam would behave himself if he looked
>just like his creator ("He wouldn't disobey the master in whose image
>he was made, would he?" thinks Jehovah...)
>
>Artistic depictions of the Biblical god invariably show 'Him' looking
>like a bearded white man (like in Michelangelo's famous painting on
>the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, with Adam reaching out his left
>hand to touch the right hand of God... just like Chuck painted it
>in "THE AGONY AND THE ECSTASY"). But just because the Bible's god
>LOOKS like a man doesn't mean that He IS a man.
>
>Likewise, the simian god Honorius believes in may LOOK like an ape --
>since Apes were made "in His image" -- but that doesn't mean that He
>IS an ape. The four heads on Mt. Rushmore may LOOK like presidents
>Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and (Teddy) Roosevelt, but they are a
>mountain, not men. They LOOK like men, but they ain't men. They were
>created to look like those guys.
>
>When Zira tells Taylor that "all men look alike to most apes", it
>bears remembering that apes view their own simian features to be a
>reflection of their divine origin. God made the APE in His own image,
>and any "perverted scientist" who would DARE to question that and to
>propose that the Ape is the product of evolution is advancing
>an "insidious" theory that must be scientific heresy.
>
>I wonder if the apes ever argue WHICH species of Ape their God most
>resembles. Was the simian 'Adam' created with the features of a
>Chimpanzee, an Orangutan, or a Gorilla? Or, was there a time when the
>original Ape family looked unlike either of those three Ape-types,
>and that population diverged... changing into those three
>distince 'racial' divisions?
>
>It used to be widely believed in Judeo-Christian circles that Adam
>was a White man -- the name "Adam" meaning "red", as in "ruddy-
>complexion" (able to blush, in other words), and that the different
>races came about as a result of the events following the Flood. Noah
>(also a white man -- "pure in his generations") begat 3 sons: Shem
>(ancestor of the Semitic peoples who populated the Middle East and
>Asia), Ham (ancestor of the so-called "Hamitic" peoples, the black-
>skinned people who predominate in Africa), and Japheth (the ancestor
>of the Europeans, cognate with the Greek mythical character Iapetos).
>According to Genesis, Noah suffered some undescribed 'sin' committed
>on him by his "youngest" son. It's rather confusing in the text, but
>it seems that there are two main explanations for what is supposed to
>have happened.
>
>The first explanation is that Ham (presumably the "youngest son") had
>CASTRATED Noah (while his dad was passed out from drinking too much
>wine) -- the same way that various Greek gods had literally castrated
>their parents in order to usurp the position as "top god". Robert
>Graves (who co-wrote a book called "HEBREW MYTHS") thinks this is
>what the Genesis story implies -- in Genesis it only says that "Ham,
>the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father" (9:22). So he
>saw his naughty bits... so what? Well, if he did more than SEE
>them... if he hacked 'em OFF, then that would be rather nasty.
>
>The second explanation is that Ham -- described as the father of
>Canaan -- had impregnated Noah's wife. His own mother. Incest. In
>LEVITICUS (18:7-8) it says: "You shall not uncover the nakedness of
>your father, which is the nakedness of your mother; she is your
>mother, you shall not uncover her nakedness. You shall not uncover
>the nakedness of your father's wife; it is your father's nakedness."
>In other words, the phrase "father's nakedness" figuratively referred
>not to HIS literal naked body but, rather, to the naked body of his
>wife (and, since men owned their wives back then, the naked body of a
>wife literally belonged to the husband).
>
>So, then, Ham seems to have taken advantage of the fact that his dad,
>Noah, was passed out from boozin' it up... and he "uncovered the
>nakedness of his father" -- literally meaning his MOTHER'S naked
>body -- and had sex with her. And THIS seems to be how Ham became the
>father of Canaan: Canaan was Noah's wife's grandson AND son, as well
>as Noah's grandson AND step-son through incest. No wonder, then, that
>Noah cursed Canaan rather than his own creepy son, Ham. Noah didn't
>want Canaan to have a portion in any inheritance, since he wasn't
>literally borne from his wife from his own seed but, rather, through
>the seed of his incestuous son.
>
>I always thought it was kinda mean that Canaan should be cursed,
>since it wasn't HIS fault that his father begot him incestuously. And
>yet he -- and all those uncounted people who supposedly descended
>from him -- were to suffer a curse. The Canaanites were to suffer the
>horrors of the invading Israelites after the post-Exodus wandering in
>the desert, when "the land of the Canaanites" was renamed "the
>Promised Land", and God gave the Israelites permission -- ordered
>them, really -- to slaughter the Canaanites. All 'cuz Noah cursed
>their ancestor for having been born through incestuous bastardy,
>which was Ham's fault, not his. Ah well, that's biblical (im-)
>morality for ya.
>
>Did the 3 types of Apes take on different physiological features, one
>wonders, after some similar Catastrophe myth, when a simian 'Noah'
>figure begat three apes who would be the progenitors of the Chimps,
>the Orangs, and the Gorillas? How would Honorius or Zaius explain the
>differences between the 3 types of Apes, if ALL apes descended from a
>first 'Adam'-type ape?
>
>Patrick
>
>
>
>
>

.html <.html

.html <.html

Rory, your Beneath DVD cover is awesome! I like it much better than
the one used for the origianl Evolution DVD set and the new Legacy
Set. Looks more "Planet of the Apes-ish".
John

In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:

>
> Here's a DVD cover for BENEATH I've just finished. The front

cover is from

> the 1970 soundtrack LP, but I didn't want to use the album's back

cover since

> it's just a collection of black and white photos. Instead, I just

gathered a

> hodgepodge of stuff. Not the greatest, but then BENEATH is kind

of a

> hodgepodge itself.
>
> -- Rory
>

I am very interested in a project like this. Would we be including
any movie files? I have a few short movies from Beneath that were
proably left on the cutting room floor and I also have the Serta
commercial.
John


In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:

>
> Good idea.
>
> Who is interested?
>
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On

Behalf

> Of TZer0@...
> Sent: Sunday, 30 April 2006 4:56 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: New photos
>
> In a message dated 4/29/2006 12:19:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
> tell me about it...they could have easily contacted
> any of us much less Joe Russo ....between us all we
> could have filled up a whole bonus disc!
>
> Perhaps that should be one of the group projects.
> Both Fox and those POTA snipers on eBay
> would probably hate it if we made out own
> image disc of all of our rarest stills. Then
> we'd never have to shop for them on eBay
> again. Or buy a new release just because
> it came with a gallery. Ha haa...Suckers!
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
> Fantasy
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Fantasy+science+fiction&w1=Fantasy+

>

science+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club
&w4

>

=Science+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science
+fi

> ction&c=6&s=173&.sig=EtyUzBleFbEs_d3lq261tw> science fiction
> Science
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Science+fiction+books&w1=Fantasy+sc

>

ience+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club&w
4=S

>

cience+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science+f
ict

> ion&c=6&s=173&.sig=rMIUepDl53Gghql0memanw> fiction books
> Science
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Science+fiction+book+club&w1=Fantas

>

y+science+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+cl
ub&

>

w4=Science+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+scien
ce+

> fiction&c=6&s=173&.sig=GINuxsxCX_lvcwW3qhorTg> fiction book club
>
> Science
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Science+fiction+magazine&w1=Fantasy

>

+science+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+clu
b&w

>

4=Science+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+scienc
e+f

> iction&c=6&s=173&.sig=6slFgJQPWdkNBWmovIXB2w> fiction magazine
> Science
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Science+fiction+novel&w1=Fantasy+sc

>

ience+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club&w
4=S

>

cience+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science+f
ict

> ion&c=6&s=173&.sig=017KWaoRfoc_Bi4z3bv5Mg> fiction novel
> Writing
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?

t=ms&k=Writing+science+fiction&w1=Fantasy+

>

science+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club
&w4

>

=Science+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science
+fi

> ction&c=6&s=173&.sig=WMu77GyfjRdUsZT4jYYvDA> science fiction
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "PotaDG
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG> " on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms of

> Service <
>
> _____
>
>
> --
>

I mostly have autographed 8x10's but if I have anything worthy or
saved to my computer, I'd be glad to help.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...> wrote:
>
> Good idea.
>
> Who is interested?
>
>
> Michael
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of TZer0@...
> Sent: Sunday, 30 April 2006 4:56 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: New photos
>
> In a message dated 4/29/2006 12:19:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
> tell me about it...they could have easily contacted
> any of us much less Joe Russo ....between us all we
> could have filled up a whole bonus disc!
>
> Perhaps that should be one of the group projects.
> Both Fox and those POTA snipers on eBay
> would probably hate it if we made out own
> image disc of all of our rarest stills. Then
> we'd never have to shop for them on eBay
> again. Or buy a new release just because
> it came with a gallery. Ha haa...Suckers!
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
> Fantasy
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Fantasy+science+fiction&w1=Fantasy+
>
science+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club&
w4
>
=Science+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science+
fi
> ction&c=6&s=173&.sig=EtyUzBleFbEs_d3lq261tw> science fiction
> Science
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Science+fiction+books&w1=Fantasy+sc
>
ience+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club&w4
=S
>
cience+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science+fi
ct
> ion&c=6&s=173&.sig=rMIUepDl53Gghql0memanw> fiction books
> Science
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Science+fiction+book+club&w1=Fantas
>
y+science+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+clu
b&
>
w4=Science+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+scienc
e+
> fiction&c=6&s=173&.sig=GINuxsxCX_lvcwW3qhorTg> fiction book club
>
> Science
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Science+fiction+magazine&w1=Fantasy
>
+science+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club
&w
>
4=Science+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science
+f
> iction&c=6&s=173&.sig=6slFgJQPWdkNBWmovIXB2w> fiction magazine
> Science
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Science+fiction+novel&w1=Fantasy+sc
>
ience+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club&w4
=S
>
cience+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science+fi
ct
> ion&c=6&s=173&.sig=017KWaoRfoc_Bi4z3bv5Mg> fiction novel
> Writing
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Writing+science+fiction&w1=Fantasy+
>
science+fiction&w2=Science+fiction+books&w3=Science+fiction+book+club&
w4
>
=Science+fiction+magazine&w5=Science+fiction+novel&w6=Writing+science+
fi
> ction&c=6&s=173&.sig=WMu77GyfjRdUsZT4jYYvDA> science fiction
>
> _____
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "PotaDG
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG> " on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:PotaDG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> Service <
>
> _____
>
>
> --
>

.html.html In a message dated 4/29/06 2:50:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TZer0@... writes:

If that's the case who did Jerry Meren play?

The chimp kid in the museum, I think.

-- Rory
<.html<.html

That's actually a good idea! I've been wanting to put
all my pics on a disc (also to get more room on the
computer!) but I dont have the ability to burn discs
yet.......

--- TZer0@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 4/29/2006 12:19:45 P.M. Central
> Daylight Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
>
> tell me about it...they could have easily contacted
> any of us much less Joe Russo ....between us all we
> could have filled up a whole bonus disc!
>
>
>
> Perhaps that should be one of the group projects.
> Both Fox and those POTA snipers on eBay
> would probably hate it if we made out own
> image disc of all of our rarest stills. Then
> we'd never have to shop for them on eBay
> again. Or buy a new release just because
> it came with a gallery. Ha haa...Suckers!
>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com , "Wendy Kostora" <Willowape@...> wrote:

>
> Patrick,
>
> I admire your intelligence and capability to explain the details so

well. I'm glad someone in this group has brought up a subject that is
significantly deep and interesting. I'm a real nut (banana) on
evolution, even going as far as taking an anthropology class, which
actually turned out to be a linguistic class.

>
> I think you're right in indicating that God wasn't actually an ape,

or from a human point, a man. When I think about the image in
reference to God, I think about an intelligence that affords humans
the capability to have relationships and exercise the power of love.
(This did not happen overnight.) The bible is a puzzle made out the
fabric of story that our brains naturally weave. Yes, the bible is a
collection of historical documents pasted together in the sequence of
time. However, some of these so called events are more like parables.
(Jesus used parables.) Because of the fossils of our ancestors and
science, I belive Genesis is a parable that speaks the truth in a
sematic way. When reading between the lines, I ask not who is God is,
but what is God? The great designer? (Intelligent design)
Certainly, what ever he/she/it is has the intelligence to create, to
world build, and to love. Thus is dreamer who dreams the dreamer; the
image of God --- the image of ourselves.

>
> The apes resembling us, having brains much like our own, would

pretty much have the same capability to create story so explain their
orgins, mimicing ours. (Joseph Campbell's "Power of Myth", which I'm
sure you have read, does well to explain the signifcants of how we
are creatures of story). To make apes lord of the planet, they would
naturally and inevitably adopt our so called Western and Plato
attidutes, placing themselves above everything, excluding
possibilities that hold truth or truths that would make animals ---
humans practically equal in the universe. Such attitudes are glue for
the apes. They need to keep the humans beneath them so that three
species will not war against each other. Hate for one particular
thing is pretty powerful adhedsive.

>
> A good example of this so called glue, is your mention of Canaan. I

agree with you. I am sure the Canaanites were hardly a rightous or
even friendly people. However, to belittle a people because they a
rose from somebody's sin is absolutely wrong and injust. Noah boozing
it up and Ham got horney for his mom is just lame excuse to take away
these people's land. (Joseph Campbell also talks about how men love
their mothers and hate their fathers.) Because of these attitudes,
we are still killing each other under God's name. When will we ever
learn!

>
> Wendy

-----------------------------------------------------------------

*** Hi, Wendy.

I should point out that in the Bible, the Israelites had a habit of
denigrating their enemies, even going so far as to purposely misspell
their names. One notorious example of this concerns the name JEZEBEL;
in her native language her name means "Princess of Ba'al" -- but the
Hebrew text of 2 Kings adds the letter Aleph to the beginning of it,
and thus alters the meaning of her name (in Hebrew) to "Piece of
shit". It's not all that different from how the former dictator of
Iraq has had his first name ("Saddam") turned into a ribald pun
related to the sin of "Sodom". In a culture where the very meaning of
a name was quite important -- so much so that God refuses to divulge
His own name to Moses ["Tell 'em that I AM THAT I AM sent ya..."],
for fear of Moses acquiring power over Him, due to a belief that
knowing/voicing/naming names gives one magical power over the named
one -- it is interesting how the Hebrew authors of the Old Testament
weren't above slagging their enemies' names. Perhaps it helped them
to think that by doing so they were empowering themselves and
destroying their enemies' power.

Incidentally, GENESIS also records that the Moabites were descended
from another incestuous union. After the destruction of Sodom and
Gomorrah, the daughters of Lot think that they'll die childless
unless they get impregnated... and the only guy around is their
father. So, they get him drunk (reminiscent of Noah's drinking-to-
excess) and commit incest. Their children are "from-father" -- in
Hebrew "Mo-Ab" ["Mo-" means FROM and "Ab" means FATHER]. That's how
the Moabites are said to have gotten their name. Of course, this
disqualifies them from possession of the Promised Land, later on,
just as it disqualified the Canaanites to be bred through incest.
Amazing, isn't it, how these goofy stories from ancient times are
used in the present day to justify ownership of that ever-contested
crossroads that is the so-called "Holy Land"!

The two best books I've ever read about the Bible are "WHO WROTE THE
BIBLE?" (by Richard Elliot Friedman) and "CAESAR'S MESSIAH" (by
Joseph Atwill). The former book deconstructs the Old Testament,
showing thoroughly How the OT was written, by Whom and Why -- and, in
a nutshell, the reason the OT is in the form as we have it today has
a lot more to do with "power politics" amongst factions of priests
than to do with any supposed Divine Inspiration.

Atwill's book is jaw-droppingly, eye-openingly stupendous. His
findings -- after exhaustively studying primarily the works of
Josephus and the New Testament -- show, to my satisfaction, that the
protagonist of the 4 gospels, "Jesus Christ", was an invention. After
the 3 and a half-year war of the Messianic Jewish Zealots against
their Roman oppressors ended with the fall of Masada, the victorious
Titus Flavius (son of the Emperor Vespasian) succeeded his father as
the 2nd of the Flavian emperors (daddy Vespasian having been declared
by the Roman Senate to be a "god" after his death). Titus [the
living "son of a god"] had defeated the fanatics, but he still had to
worry about the belief system that had fired 'em up to fight against
Rome -- the belief in a warrior king who would be sent by Jehovah to
defeat the enemies of His "chosen people": the Messiah. As long as
the violent fanatics clinged to their apocalyptic beliefs, they were
all-too-willing to follow any guy who could claim to be in David's
extended family tree and, thus, eligible to be the Messiah.

So, Titus -- with the help of the Jewish historian Joseph ben
Mattathias (who had subsequently switched sides from being a leader
in the Zealot movement to a TURNCOAT who proclaimed Vespasian to be
the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies and, thus, was adopted
into the royal Flavian family and renamed Flavius Josephus) -- sought
to eradicate Judaism as it was then practiced in the territories
ruled over by Rome and replace it with a "new covenant". It would
be "messianic judaism" without the cojones -- as a way to de-fang and
de-claw the violent zealot rebels.

The gospels were written under the auspices of the royal court of
Rome after the fall of Jerusalem & Masada -- and the events of those
gospels were to depict the adult career of a fictional Messiah
(Jesus, the Christ/Messiah/Anointed One) as having transpired EXACTLY
one biblical "generation" prior to the steamrolling of the Roman
Legions (headed by Titus) over Judea. Just as it took 3 and 1/2 years
for Titus' forces to annihilate the rebel forces, so too did Jesus
supposedly go about his 'Ministry' for 3 and 1/2 years, from his
Baptism to his Crucifixion/Resurrection/Ascension.

Atwill shows that it isn't/wasn't/CAN'T be coincidence that the
places where Titus went in his military campaign through Judea were
the SAME places where Jesus had supposedly previously been -- in the
exact same order, each visitation (first, fictionally, by Jesus, and
then 40 years later to the day by Titus historically) separated by
one complete biblical generation of 40 years.

Jesus is said to have stopped at Mt. Gerizim just before his Baptism,
where he chatted with a Samaritan woman at a well ["Whosoever drinks
from me will never thirst..." he tells her, at this well]. Flash
forward 40 years and Titus is leading his legions through that same
area, and he encounters the first inklings of resistance... so he
surrounds the fighters there and, after they are deprived of water,
they suffer from lack of thirst. His first battle and he hasn't even
crossed into Judea yet!

Jesus goes to the Sea of Galilee and tells his first disciples that
he will make them "fishers of men"... and 40 years later, at that
same location, Titus' soldiers battle with Jewish zealots there, and
the rebels try to escape them in small boats, hoping to cross the Sea
of Galilee -- but the Romans slaughter them all, spearing them out of
the water (like the fishermen in "TOMORROW'S TIDE" before the
astronauts taught 'em how to use a net). Literally fishing men out of
the sea.

Cut to the chase...

Jesus -- the "son of Mary" -- goes to Jerusalem for his 3rd and final
Passover, where he prophesies to his disciples that the Temple will
be destroyed -- that there are those alive that day, in that "wicked
generation", who would live to see the devastation. Then, he is
crucified after having instituted the ceremony of the Eucharist --
where his Body and Blood are symbolized by the Bread and Wine his
followers are to ritually eat and drink, in order that they may have
his "life" in them...

... flash forward 40 years later: in Josephus' description of the
horrific siege of Jerusalem by the encircling armies of Titus, there
is a passage describing a Jewish rebel woman named Mary who, out of
desperation -- due to the fact that the Romans starved the besieged
Jews to the point of cannibalism -- and seeing that her baby had no
future to look forward to, KILLS and EATS him. Atwill, comparing the
texts of the gospels with Josephus' pro-Roman propaganda in his "WARS
OF THE JEWS", shows that both texts were written so as to reference
each other. One important fact revolves around the meaning of the
name "Mary" -- in Hebrew it means REBEL. The reason so many women in
the gospels were named "Mary" was that they all were anti-Roman
zealots who sympathized with the resistance movement against Roman
occupation. Just as Vietcong fighters were called "Charlie" by the
U.S. troops, as a nickname, so too did the Romans call female Jewish
rebels "Mary", and if you read the gospels without knowing that, you
just can't get what the text meant to those who wrote it.

The upshot was that when Titus became the Emperor of Rome, he wanted
to find a way to pacify the insane fanatics who -- despite losing
their war against Rome -- were still in the mindset believing that
their god would send a Deliverer to defeat the evil pagans polluting
the Promised Land... so he RE-INVENTED messianic Judaism, with an
invented pseudo-messiah who, in the concocted pseudo-historical
gospels, was presumed to have PRE-DATED the Roman triumph over the
rebellious Jews... and who is portrayed as having been on the side of
the Romans, rather than on the side of the "wicked generation" of
Jews who had rebelled not only against Rome, but supposedly against
the will of their God. THAT is why Jesus is depicted preaching to the
Jews to LOVE their enemies (Rome)... to be KIND to those who hate
them (and the Romans HATED the Jews, whose rebellion was costly)...
to "give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" -- to pay the
Roman taxes that were milking the wealth out of Judea into Roman
coffers. The works of Josephus AND the New Testament were works of
propaganda serving the purposes of the ruling elite in Rome.

The first "popes" of this new religion -- after the supposed first
pope, Peter -- were all members of the Flavian family. They, of
course, didn't believe in the hogwash they were inventing for the
defeated Jews who were still sympathetic to the Zealot cause; this
religion was intended for the "scum" to believe in, to keep them in a
state of willing subservience. Literally "slaves in Christ", as "St.
Paul" preached in his letters.

But those who knew this was an invented religion -- the upper-crust
of Rome's ruling class -- would read the gospel accounts of Jesus
(taking place c. 26-30 A.D.) and, knowing the gory details in the
history of Titus' blood-soaked military campaign 40 years later (from
66-to-70 A.D.), they would see the dark, sick, twisted humor of it.
The rubes who first began to believe in this new religion wouldn't
get the joke -- because the joke was on them, and it was subtly told
so that only a rather sophisticated reader (knowledgeable about
Josephus' propaganda history of the time) could see that it was a
lampoon.

Of course, certain aspects of the life of Jesus -- predominantly his
pre-career life, from his Conception until his disappearance after
age 12 -- are "mythic" (in the Joseph Campbell sense) since they are
DESIGNED to be so, using the life of Moses as a template. The
parallels are too obvious: Moses, the Deliver, was prophesied = the
Messiah was prophesied... Pharaoh tries to kill the Deliverer by
slaughtering the Hebrew babies = Herod's "Slaughter of the Innocents"
to kill the baby Messiah... Moses gives the 12 tribes the
Commandments = Jesus gives his 12 disciples the Sacrament of the
Eucharist... etc etc. Jesus' life is based on Moses' life, and any
well-read person would see it as a work of fiction.

I could go on and on (as if I already haven't!), but I recommend you
all read Joseph Atwill's book for yourselves. "CAESAR'S MESSIAH". The
most stunning 'take' on the Bible/Christianity that I've ever read. I
think he's on-the-money, and I've dared all my Christian friends to
read it. If their 'faith' is strong enough, it should be able to
withstand the tsunami of his argument. I was predisposed to
skepticism, so it was easier for me; but of all the books ever
written that have sought to de-bunk the New Testament, Atwill's book
has the virtue of a genius insight: comparing the career of Jesus
(his 'ministry') to the military campaign of Titus. At every turn,
the life of Jesus is shown to be a point-for-point spoof (set one 40-
year generation earlier) of the 'fulfillment' that was Titus'
devastating juggernaut through Judea to conquer the religion-mad
Jews. The zealots back then didn't have the same weapons that
terrorist groups like Al Qaeda, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad have now,
but their religion-fueled insanity is virtually identical.

Patrick

>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>*** Hi, Wendy.
>
>I should point out that in the Bible, the Israelites had a habit of
>denigrating their enemies, even going so far as to purposely misspell
>their names. One notorious example of this concerns the name JEZEBEL;
>in her native language her name means "Princess of Ba'al" -- but the
>Hebrew text of 2 Kings adds the letter Aleph to the beginning of it,
>and thus alters the meaning of her name (in Hebrew) to "Piece of
>shit". It's not all that different from how the former dictator of
>Iraq has had his first name ("Saddam") turned into a ribald pun
>related to the sin of "Sodom". In a culture where the very meaning of
>a name was quite important -- so much so that God refuses to divulge
>His own name to Moses ["Tell 'em that I AM THAT I AM sent ya..."],
>for fear of Moses acquiring power over Him, due to a belief that
>knowing/voicing/naming names gives one magical power over the named
>one -- it is interesting how the Hebrew authors of the Old Testament
>weren't above slagging their enemies' names. Perhaps it helped them
>to think that by doing so they were empowering themselves and
>destroying their enemies' power.
>
>Incidentally, GENESIS also records that the Moabites were descended
>from another incestuous union. After the destruction of Sodom and
>Gomorrah, the daughters of Lot think that they'll die childless
>unless they get impregnated... and the only guy around is their
>father. So, they get him drunk (reminiscent of Noah's drinking-to-
>excess) and commit incest. Their children are "from-father" -- in
>Hebrew "Mo-Ab" ["Mo-" means FROM and "Ab" means FATHER]. That's how
>the Moabites are said to have gotten their name. Of course, this
>disqualifies them from possession of the Promised Land, later on,
>just as it disqualified the Canaanites to be bred through incest.
>Amazing, isn't it, how these goofy stories from ancient times are
>used in the present day to justify ownership of that ever-contested
>crossroads that is the so-called "Holy Land"!
>
>The two best books I've ever read about the Bible are "WHO WROTE THE
>BIBLE?" (by Richard Elliot Friedman) and "CAESAR'S MESSIAH" (by
>Joseph Atwill). The former book deconstructs the Old Testament,
>showing thoroughly How the OT was written, by Whom and Why -- and, in
>a nutshell, the reason the OT is in the form as we have it today has
>a lot more to do with "power politics" amongst factions of priests
>than to do with any supposed Divine Inspiration.
>
>Atwill's book is jaw-droppingly, eye-openingly stupendous. His
>findings -- after exhaustively studying primarily the works of
>Josephus and the New Testament -- show, to my satisfaction, that the
>protagonist of the 4 gospels, "Jesus Christ", was an invention. After
>the 3 and a half-year war of the Messianic Jewish Zealots against
>their Roman oppressors ended with the fall of Masada, the victorious
>Titus Flavius (son of the Emperor Vespasian) succeeded his father as
>the 2nd of the Flavian emperors (daddy Vespasian having been declared
>by the Roman Senate to be a "god" after his death). Titus [the
>living "son of a god"] had defeated the fanatics, but he still had to
>worry about the belief system that had fired 'em up to fight against
>Rome -- the belief in a warrior king who would be sent by Jehovah to
>defeat the enemies of His "chosen people": the Messiah. As long as
>the violent fanatics clinged to their apocalyptic beliefs, they were
>all-too-willing to follow any guy who could claim to be in David's
>extended family tree and, thus, eligible to be the Messiah.
>
>So, Titus -- with the help of the Jewish historian Joseph ben
>Mattathias (who had subsequently switched sides from being a leader
>in the Zealot movement to a TURNCOAT who proclaimed Vespasian to be
>the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies and, thus, was adopted
>into the royal Flavian family and renamed Flavius Josephus) -- sought
>to eradicate Judaism as it was then practiced in the territories
>ruled over by Rome and replace it with a "new covenant". It would
>be "messianic judaism" without the cojones -- as a way to de-fang and
>de-claw the violent zealot rebels.
>
>The gospels were written under the auspices of the royal court of
>Rome after the fall of Jerusalem & Masada -- and the events of those
>gospels were to depict the adult career of a fictional Messiah
>(Jesus, the Christ/Messiah/Anointed One) as having transpired EXACTLY
>one biblical "generation" prior to the steamrolling of the Roman
>Legions (headed by Titus) over Judea. Just as it took 3 and 1/2 years
>for Titus' forces to annihilate the rebel forces, so too did Jesus
>supposedly go about his 'Ministry' for 3 and 1/2 years, from his
>Baptism to his Crucifixion/Resurrection/Ascension.
>
>Atwill shows that it isn't/wasn't/CAN'T be coincidence that the
>places where Titus went in his military campaign through Judea were
>the SAME places where Jesus had supposedly previously been -- in the
>exact same order, each visitation (first, fictionally, by Jesus, and
>then 40 years later to the day by Titus historically) separated by
>one complete biblical generation of 40 years.
>
>Jesus is said to have stopped at Mt. Gerizim just before his Baptism,
>where he chatted with a Samaritan woman at a well ["Whosoever drinks
>from me will never thirst..." he tells her, at this well]. Flash
>forward 40 years and Titus is leading his legions through that same
>area, and he encounters the first inklings of resistance... so he
>surrounds the fighters there and, after they are deprived of water,
>they suffer from lack of thirst. His first battle and he hasn't even
>crossed into Judea yet!
>
>Jesus goes to the Sea of Galilee and tells his first disciples that
>he will make them "fishers of men"... and 40 years later, at that
>same location, Titus' soldiers battle with Jewish zealots there, and
>the rebels try to escape them in small boats, hoping to cross the Sea
>of Galilee -- but the Romans slaughter them all, spearing them out of
>the water (like the fishermen in "TOMORROW'S TIDE" before the
>astronauts taught 'em how to use a net). Literally fishing men out of
>the sea.
>
>Cut to the chase...
>
>Jesus -- the "son of Mary" -- goes to Jerusalem for his 3rd and final
>Passover, where he prophesies to his disciples that the Temple will
>be destroyed -- that there are those alive that day, in that "wicked
>generation", who would live to see the devastation. Then, he is
>crucified after having instituted the ceremony of the Eucharist --
>where his Body and Blood are symbolized by the Bread and Wine his
>followers are to ritually eat and drink, in order that they may have
>his "life" in them...
>
>... flash forward 40 years later: in Josephus' description of the
>horrific siege of Jerusalem by the encircling armies of Titus, there
>is a passage describing a Jewish rebel woman named Mary who, out of
>desperation -- due to the fact that the Romans starved the besieged
>Jews to the point of cannibalism -- and seeing that her baby had no
>future to look forward to, KILLS and EATS him. Atwill, comparing the
>texts of the gospels with Josephus' pro-Roman propaganda in his "WARS
>OF THE JEWS", shows that both texts were written so as to reference
>each other. One important fact revolves around the meaning of the
>name "Mary" -- in Hebrew it means REBEL. The reason so many women in
>the gospels were named "Mary" was that they all were anti-Roman
>zealots who sympathized with the resistance movement against Roman
>occupation. Just as Vietcong fighters were called "Charlie" by the
>U.S. troops, as a nickname, so too did the Romans call female Jewish
>rebels "Mary", and if you read the gospels without knowing that, you
>just can't get what the text meant to those who wrote it.
>
>The upshot was that when Titus became the Emperor of Rome, he wanted
>to find a way to pacify the insane fanatics who -- despite losing
>their war against Rome -- were still in the mindset believing that
>their god would send a Deliverer to defeat the evil pagans polluting
>the Promised Land... so he RE-INVENTED messianic Judaism, with an
>invented pseudo-messiah who, in the concocted pseudo-historical
>gospels, was presumed to have PRE-DATED the Roman triumph over the
>rebellious Jews... and who is portrayed as having been on the side of
>the Romans, rather than on the side of the "wicked generation" of
>Jews who had rebelled not only against Rome, but supposedly against
>the will of their God. THAT is why Jesus is depicted preaching to the
>Jews to LOVE their enemies (Rome)... to be KIND to those who hate
>them (and the Romans HATED the Jews, whose rebellion was costly)...
>to "give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's" -- to pay the
>Roman taxes that were milking the wealth out of Judea into Roman
>coffers. The works of Josephus AND the New Testament were works of
>propaganda serving the purposes of the ruling elite in Rome.
>
>The first "popes" of this new religion -- after the supposed first
>pope, Peter -- were all members of the Flavian family. They, of
>course, didn't believe in the hogwash they were inventing for the
>defeated Jews who were still sympathetic to the Zealot cause; this
>religion was intended for the "scum" to believe in, to keep them in a
>state of willing subservience. Literally "slaves in Christ", as "St.
>Paul" preached in his letters.
>
>But those who knew this was an invented religion -- the upper-crust
>of Rome's ruling class -- would read the gospel accounts of Jesus
>(taking place c. 26-30 A.D.) and, knowing the gory details in the
>history of Titus' blood-soaked military campaign 40 years later (from
>66-to-70 A.D.), they would see the dark, sick, twisted humor of it.
>The rubes who first began to believe in this new religion wouldn't
>get the joke -- because the joke was on them, and it was subtly told
>so that only a rather sophisticated reader (knowledgeable about
>Josephus' propaganda history of the time) could see that it was a
>lampoon.
>
>Of course, certain aspects of the life of Jesus -- predominantly his
>pre-career life, from his Conception until his disappearance after
>age 12 -- are "mythic" (in the Joseph Campbell sense) since they are
>DESIGNED to be so, using the life of Moses as a template. The
>parallels are too obvious: Moses, the Deliver, was prophesied = the
>Messiah was prophesied... Pharaoh tries to kill the Deliverer by
>slaughtering the Hebrew babies = Herod's "Slaughter of the Innocents"
>to kill the baby Messiah... Moses gives the 12 tribes the
>Commandments = Jesus gives his 12 disciples the Sacrament of the
>Eucharist... etc etc. Jesus' life is based on Moses' life, and any
>well-read person would see it as a work of fiction.
>
>I could go on and on (as if I already haven't!), but I recommend you
>all read Joseph Atwill's book for yourselves. "CAESAR'S MESSIAH". The
>most stunning 'take' on the Bible/Christianity that I've ever read. I
>think he's on-the-money, and I've dared all my Christian friends to
>read it. If their 'faith' is strong enough, it should be able to
>withstand the tsunami of his argument. I was predisposed to
>skepticism, so it was easier for me; but of all the books ever
>written that have sought to de-bunk the New Testament, Atwill's book
>has the virtue of a genius insight: comparing the career of Jesus
>(his 'ministry') to the military campaign of Titus. At every turn,
>the life of Jesus is shown to be a point-for-point spoof (set one 40-
>year generation earlier) of the 'fulfillment' that was Titus'
>devastating juggernaut through Judea to conquer the religion-mad
>Jews. The zealots back then didn't have the same weapons that
>terrorist groups like Al Qaeda, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad have now,
>but their religion-fueled insanity is virtually identical.
>
>Patrick
>
>
>
>

Patrick,

You certainly do have a handle on the bible and history. I can't really
argue your point or Atwill's as my knowledge of biblical accounts is a
shadow to yours. Because I have an open mind, I will look into reading
Atwill's book.

I will, however, go onto say what my heart tells me. Due to science, we
seemed to be the in a age, (End of days --- Piecies going into Aquarius)
where questions are asked and accounts beg to be proven or debunked. We are
determined to know the truth of past for fear that we may repeat the same
mistakes in a future that is far more complicated and scary. There are many
theories; Jesus being married for one, propagating a daughter which then
aspired the Knights of Templar (not sure about the spelling.) Although Dan
Brown's book has done very well as did the "Blood of the Holy Grail" some
years before, most historians and biblical scholars have discredited the
married theory altogether.

As for Jesus missing years, which is parallel to Mosses, there has been a
great effort to find out where Jesus had been during those years. Last
winter I met and conversed with film maker, Paul Ericson (I think). He had
worked with Peter Jackson and was in process of making documentary about
Jesus's missing years. Already Paul has gathered much proof, gathering
astonishing data from scrolls, some of which he could not see as the monk,
who kept these records, wasn't present at the time. Paul's visa expiring, he
had to leave the country --- Tibet, I think. The most popular theory is
that Jesus had gone to the Far East to learn disciplines that are clearly
present in his beatitudes and/or teachings.

I think Jesus did actually exist as did the Paresis (spelling ???) priest
who had it all figured out before Jesus made his appearance in Nazareth. He
is global because much of his teachings are influenced by many historical
and possitve cultural influences. (Egypt --- reborn --- reincarnation etc.
Egypt, monotheism, sun god. Jewish - Mosses.) If he did exist perhaps he was
many men --- women who had adapted to ways that could better deal with the
Romans, thus keeping the temple of God intact in their hearts. Titus
knowing this, used this approach to tame these so call religious fanatics
who just didn't get it. (Sound familiar?) However, didn't the Romans end up
feeding the Christians to the lions for fear that Christianity was taking
over the Roman gods. Sounds to me like Titus's approach backfired. It's kind
of like the Normans wanting the Anglos to speak French, only lose out as the
Anglo language (Engalis) remain strong within the masses that that end up
borrowing and incorporating their so called conquerer's words into their
language.

To this day, we have people who are much like Jesus; Mother Teresa,
Gandhi, Martian Luther King. and Pope John Paul. If it hadn't been for
Christianity there wouldn't be science, no education for the masses, and
thousands would parish from starvation and disease. Compassio and
humanity would be almost nonexistant(As is indicated by Taylor before he
went into stasis.) Sure Christianity has its dark side, but whose fault is
that anyway? Surely we have anti-christ too. Somewhere in time --- in the
world in a back room is someone rewriting the truthful accounts so to sway
the masses to their way of thinking. Sounds to me like "1984". In mentioning
this, I think POTA in Conquest, does well to indicate what would happen if
Christianity died. When the dogs and cats died so did humanity. Not only
where the apes suffering so were the humans. In many ways, Caesar was
liberator of compassion. He didn't know it at the time, but he eventually
did. Thus the apes had their Mosses who then grew into Jesus.

Unlike most, I consider that whatever is the bible, is not written in stone
or by God. If God were to writing anything it would be on our minds, hearts
and souls, making us into his image.

Wendy

PS. Have you read Phil Pullman's "Dark Material" Series ---- "The Golden
Compass" etc? If anyone debunks religion and God, he is the one. I will be
glad to hear your thoughts on this one.