--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:

Simian Scrolls is the official publication of the UK POTA fan club.
It is produced by group members John Roche and Dave Ballard. When issue
#12 is available an announcement & instructions will be made in the
group.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Mr Elastic <backwardfeet@> wrote:
>
> Hi James,
>
> This may be a stupid question: but what is Simian Scrolls? and
the
6 bucks for issue #12. Being an "issue", I am assuming that it is a
publication of sorts; but the only POTA publication that I am aware
of
is Ape Chronicles. I may want to subscribe to Scrolls.
>
> Please let me know.
>
> Moe
>

--- End forwarded message ---







--

----- Original Message -----

From: Neil T Foster

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 5:57 PM

Subject: [PotaDG] POTA ride

Did anyone ever see or go on this?:

 

http://www.funchase.com/Images/Freddie%20Mahana/Fred%20MahanaPg3.htm

 

Neil

 

Not I.   But I would love to hear more from anyone who did!

Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil T Foster
Sent: Saturday, 10 June 2006 10:57 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Disarmed} [PotaDG] POTA ride

 

Did anyone ever see or go on this?:

 

http://www.funchase.com/Images/Freddie%20Mahana/Fred%20MahanaPg3.htm

 

Neil

--

---

Yahoo! Sports Fantasy Football ’06 - Go with the leader. Start your league today!

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Sunday, 11 June 2006 12:49 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] POTA ride

Yeah sounds trippy....was it in Australia? I guess it's different than that other POTA attraction.....??

.

----- Original Message -----

From: Neil T Foster

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 11:13 AM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] POTA ride

-- Nope it was somewhere in the USA. If you explore the site a bit I think it tells you where abouts.

 

Neil

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Sunday, 11 June 2006 12:49 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] POTA ride

Yeah sounds trippy....was it in Australia? I guess it's different than that other POTA attraction.....??

.

>
> In a message dated 6/7/2006 12:09:27 PM Central Standard Time,

> writes:
>
> > POTA should never never be played for laughs.
>
> Right on!!!!! You are right on the ball T!!!
>

>
> I love that scene in the cage. It's just two apes communicating

In a message dated 6/11/2006 11:20:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> I love that scene in the cage. It's just two apes communicating
as mothers despite their differences in intelligence. I never took
that scene to mean she was going to switch the babies. - - - Jeff
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

*** Huh?

We know that Heloise gave birth to a daughter (named Salome). Doesn't
Armando refer to Salome as Lewis Dixon's god-daughter?

We know that Armando gave Zira the medallion of St. Francis of Assisi
to put around her newborn baby's neck, for protection.

We know that Zira specifically wanted to "say goodbye" to Heloise, as
one mother to another, and Zira gives that serious-as-a- heartattack
look...

We know that Armando refers to Heloise's baby as a "he" when the cops
check out his circus -- even though he knows the child SHOULD be
a "she"...

We know that Zira leaves -- purposely -- that "carpetbag" suitcase in
the oil-rig workings, to be found by a workman (as it was).

Zira, when on the derelict ship, refers to the baby chimp in her arms
as a "he" to Cornelius -- indicating that she knows something her
very own husband does NOT know: that she'd switched babies and not
told anybody that she'd done so.

At the very end of "ESCAPE" Armando talks to the baby chimp, knowing
that it is not Salome, but Baby Milo... and the St. Francis medallion
is draped around its neck.

All this tells us that Zira, in order to safeguard the life of her
only son, switched her baby with that of Heloise, taking Salome with
her and NOT letting anybody else know she'd done so -- not even her
husband. The last time Zira and Cornelius speak with Lewis and
Stevie, Cornelius asks for a gun so as to give them the means to end
their own lives rather than be killed by the ones hunting them... and
Zira pleads for Lewis to comply.

Zira wants the Authorities to believe that the "threat" to Mankind
has been eliminated -- so that they won't pursue her true child.
Thus, she needs the Authorities to kill her, to kill Cornelius, and
to kill Salome (in the false belief that Salome is Zira's child).

Of COURSE Zira intended to switch babies in that scene where she
proceeds to "say goodbye to Heloise"!

When Dehn wrote "ESCAPE" he KNEW he'd be writing a 4th Apes film,
too. He knew that he should leave this 3rd Apes film open for a
sequel, unlike the blow-up-the- planet ending of the 2nd film (which
he miraculously worked around). He fully intended -- while plotting
out ESCAPE -- for CONQUEST to be about the Ape Revolt, led by the Son
of Zira and Cornelius. All the "prophecies" told in "ESCAPE" by the
interrogated Ape-onauts to Hasslein were intended to tie-in to what
REALLY happens in "CONQUEST".

In "ESCAPE" Cornelius told the Commission that Apes in his time
(3955) had been speaking English for "nearly 2,000 years". After the
Commission meeting, he tells Lewis & Stevie that the ONLY thing
they'd lied about to the Commission was whether or not they knew
Taylor. Cornelius had LIED, saying to General Faulkner, "No... is he
a soldier?" In order to keep from divulging the destruction of the
Earth to the Commission, Cornelius lied about not knowing Taylor.

So we KNOW that the Talking Apes prehistory known to Cornelius dates
back to the late 20th Century -- nearly 2,000 years prior to 3955.

Dehn, then, has Cornelius AND Zira later on LIE to Hasslein that
after the Pet Plague the first talking ape wouldn't arrive on the
scene until some 500 years had passed -- CONTRADICTING HIS EARLIER
TESTIMONY TO THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION.

Cornelius and Zira had both read those "Secret Scrolls",
those "history scrolls kept hidden from the masses" in which the
Downfall of Man is described, along with the Rise of Apes. Apes in
their own time (3955) had been led to believe that the Simian
Civilization dates back only to the time of the Lawgiver, some "1,200
years ago": when Cornelius tells the Tribunal that he'd found
evidence in the Forbidden Zone of a civilization PRE-DATING the
writing of the Sacred Scrolls, Honorius objected, saying that
Cornelius' remarks are "profane" (and irrelevant). Thus, Apes had
believed, in 3955, that their culture dates back only to about 2755
or so.

But those "Secret Scrolls" tell about the Plague that killed off the
Dogs and Cats -- accurately, since the Dogs and Cats DO die off
within a single month in the year 1983. Those scrolls also state that
Man began taking Apes as pets -- which is also accurate. The scrolls
also stated that those pet-Apes were later enslaved -- which is also
accurate.

But what was NOT accurate -- what those scrolls probably DIDN'T
state, but what Cornelius and Zira LYINGLY CLAIMED they stated -- was
the timeframe of those events. Cornelius told Hasslein that Apes were
Pets for about "two centuries".. . and Zira claims that the enslaved
apes turned the tables on their masters after "three more centuries"
when a TALKING APE said "NO!" for the FIRST time... but this CANNOT
be true, since Cornelius had already truthfully testified to the
Presidential Commission that Apes had been speaking English for about
TWO THOUSAND YEARS.

Cornelius wants Hasslein (and the other goons) to believe that the
future Ape Rebellion won't happen for another 500 years, giving Man
plenty of time to lord it over their miserable slaves. He and Zira
want these humans to believe a LIE.

Because THEY KNOW that the REAL leader of the Ape Rebellion is NOT an
ape named Aldo who supposedly won't show up for another half a
millennium.. . the TRUE leader is their unborn baby, in Zira's womb
during that very interrogation. Zira knows -- even before ultrasound
technology was around -- that her child would be a boy, because one
of those "Secret Scrolls" was probably the very one that John
Huston's "Lawgiver" character reads from in A.D. 2670. By the time
Zira and Cornelius are being subjected to the hostile interrogation
by Hasslein, E1, and E2 at Camp Eleven, they've probably come to
accept the notion that the "parent apes" written about long before
their time -- the ones who were to be "brutally murdered" after
begetting and bearing the Savior named CAESAR who would free the Apes
from the yoke of slavery -- the ones who had traveled backwards
through Time from Earth's own future were THEMSELVES.

Zira KNOWS she and Cornelius are going to be "brutally murdered" (as
that scroll says). And Cornelius knows that their son, Caesar, not
only will be the "Savior" of the Apes and the King who rules the post-
apocalyptic world... but also that Caesar's son (Cornelius' grandson,
named "Cornelius" after himself) would be murdered by an ape named
ALDO...

... which is why Cornelius goes out of his way to inform Hasslein
that the first ape to speak -- to REFUSE, to say "NO!" to a human
slavemaster -- would be named "Aldo". He tells Hasslein this in hopes
that ANY ape named "Aldo" might be killed by fearful humans, so as to
prevent the murder of his grandson.

Everything that Zira and Cornelius do in the latter half of "ESCAPE"
serves to fulfill the "past history" they'd learned about from those
history scrolls that THEY had read prior to accompanying Milo on
their flight -- EXCEPT for the murder of Caesar's son: THAT event
from their past history they would do ANYTHING to prevent, if at all
possible. They know their own son, Caesar, will be the King of the
Ape-and-Human society that survives the "vilest war in Man's
history"... but Caesar will be a King without a surviving dynasty.
With Caesar's son dead, there won't be any dynasty of CHIMPANZEE
KINGS to rule over the world. Remember in "BENEATH" when Cornelius
laments, "We chimpanzees are too few... How can we take any
initiative when THEY are in control?" Cornelius and Zira, after they
witness the Earth's destruction -- a result of a gorilla-fomented war
of aggression -- would prefer it if Apes were ruled by a CHIMPANZEE,
would they not? When they find themselves back in their own
Prehistory, they know that Zira's unborn child WILL BE the Savior,
the one born to "parent apes" who had "descended on Earth from
Earth's own future"... but that chimp Savior's dynasty is doomed to
end with the death of young Cornelius UNLESS they can somehow prevent
Aldo from murdering him.

What better way, given their limitations, than to tell Hasslein that
the Talking Ape who'll make trouble for Mankind in their Future will
be named "Aldo"? Any ape with that name -- be it a gorilla, a chimp,
or an orangutan -- would be as good as dead. If a slave ape were to
be given such a name by its master, the Authorities -- looking for
any ape named "Aldo" -- would immediately target that ape for
assassination. Hasslein (or any like-minded human) would be
eliminating the threat to Cornelius and Zira's grandson under the
false belief that they were removing a threat to Mankind.

Dehn, when he wrote "ESCAPE" -- leaving it open for the sequels he
was already plotting out -- knew how that Future History would
unfold, and despite the plot elements introduced by the Corringtons,
Dehn's hand would be the final one to shape that history. He was
using the paradigm of the Epic Hero to mold the life story of Caesar,
from his Miraculous Conception (2,000 years after his 'Virgin Birth')
and endangered childhood to his symbolic 'Death', Resurrection, and
Descent into 'Hell'. Dehn was a poet, and he KNEW this Epic Hero
motif through and through. He knew what he was doing. And that scene
where Zira says "goodbye" to Heloise is fully a part of that scenario.

Patrick

**************************************************************************

Patrick, great take on the "Aldo problem."

 

If the Apes in POTA are decedents of Caesar's west coast Ape City, and Cornelius had access to the very same scrolls that the Lawgiver was reading from in BATTLE, then it would make sense for Cornelius to try and falsify the time lines in his testimony to protect his future family.

 

Knowledge of these scrolls would also inspire Cornelius and Zira to take the extraordinary means of salvaging Taylor's ship and attempting to escape earth by ways of space -- because they knew the end was near.

 

However, some holes in this theory still remain... In ESCAPE, when the apeonauts are alone in their cage, why would they be so puzzled as to where they are? They would surly know exactly where they are and what they had to do. Milo only theorized as to where and when they were.

 

Getting back to Aldo. In an attempt to save his unborn grandson, does Cornelius name Aldo in an attempt to change history with the hope that Aldo will be destroyed before this tragedy takes place? I f Cornelius did have the detailed knowledge, did he actually think that he could change time? I think that the sacred scrolls he saw -- presented only a vague outline of what would happen -- that Cornelius did not have access to the very same scroll that was read in BATTLE, but perhaps a later interpretation (after selective editing by the orangutans) that leaves out Caesar and substitutes him with Aldo (ironically, perhaps to appease the gorillas and give them a "hero").

 

Let's not be too hard on poor ol' Aldo. After all, if Aldo had not killed Kolp when he raids the retreating school bus, Kolp would have sent the signal to Alma to detonate the Alpha Omega bomb -- thus ending the world at the end of BATTLE. Aldo's cold-blooded assassination bought the earth about 2000 extra years that it would not have had -- perhaps this was why the apes revised history to make Aldo a more noble character.

 

Bill

Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael Whitty

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 6:32 AM

Subject: RE: {Disarmed} Re: [PotaDG] Re: Dehn's plot...

Off the top of my head it was Zira and Cornelius who mentioned Aldo and they said only that he was an ape...?

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pinero
Sent: Monday, 12 June 2006 10:39 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [PotaDG] Re: Dehn's plot...

quick question:  do the scrolls mention that Aldo is a gorilla?

atragon1@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/11/2006 11:20:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com , <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> I love that scene in the cage. It's just two apes communicating
as mothers despite their differences in intelligence. I never took
that scene to mean she was going to switch the babies. - - - Jeff
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

*** Huh?

We know that Heloise gave birth to a daughter (named Salome). Doesn't
Armando refer to Salome as Lewis Dixon's god-daughter?

We know that Armando gave Zira the medallion of St. Francis of Assisi
to put around her newborn baby's neck, for protection.

We know that Zira specifically wanted to "say goodbye" to Heloise, as
one mother to another, and Zira gives that serious-as-a- heartattack
look...

We know that Armando refers to Heloise's baby as a "he" when the cops
check out his circus -- even though he knows the child SHOULD be
a "she"...

We know that Zira leaves -- purposely -- that "carpetbag" suitcase in
the oil-rig workings, to be found by a workman (as it was).

Zira, when on the derelict ship, refers to the baby chimp in her arms
as a "he" to Cornelius -- indicating that she knows something her
very own husband does NOT know: that she'd switched babies and not
told anybody that she'd done so.

At the very end of "ESCAPE" Armando talks to the baby chimp, knowing
that it is not Salome, but Baby Milo... and the St. Francis medallion
is draped around its neck.

All this tells us that Zira, in order to safeguard the life of her
only son, switched her baby with that of Heloise, taking Salome with
her and NOT letting anybody else know she'd done so -- not even her
husband. The last time Zira and Cornelius speak with Lewis and
Stevie, Cornelius asks for a gun so as to give them the means to end
their own lives rather than be killed by the ones hunting them... and
Zira pleads for Lewis to comply.

Zira wants the Authorities to believe that the "threat" to Mankind
has been eliminated -- so that they won't pursue her true child.
Thus, she needs the Authorities to kill her, to kill Cornelius, and
to kill Salome (in the false belief that Salome is Zira's child).

Of COURSE Zira intended to switch babies in that scene where she
proceeds to "say goodbye to Heloise"!

When Dehn wrote "ESCAPE" he KNEW he'd be writing a 4th Apes film,
too. He knew that he should leave this 3rd Apes film open for a
sequel, unlike the blow-up-the- planet ending of the 2nd film (which
he miraculously worked around). He fully intended -- while plotting
out ESCAPE -- for CONQUEST to be about the Ape Revolt, led by the Son
of Zira and Cornelius. All the "prophecies" told in "ESCAPE" by the
interrogated Ape-onauts to Hasslein were intended to tie-in to what
REALLY happens in "CONQUEST".

In "ESCAPE" Cornelius told the Commission that Apes in his time
(3955) had been speaking English for "nearly 2,000 years". After the
Commission meeting, he tells Lewis & Stevie that the ONLY thing
they'd lied about to the Commission was whether or not they knew
Taylor. Cornelius had LIED, saying to General Faulkner, "No... is he
a soldier?" In order to keep from divulging the destruction of the
Earth to the Commission, Cornelius lied about not knowing Taylor.

So we KNOW that the Talking Apes prehistory known to Cornelius dates
back to the late 20th Century -- nearly 2,000 years prior to 3955.

Dehn, then, has Cornelius AND Zira later on LIE to Hasslein that
after the Pet Plague the first talking ape wouldn't arrive on the
scene until some 500 years had passed -- CONTRADICTING HIS EARLIER
TESTIMONY TO THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION.

Cornelius and Zira had both read those "Secret Scrolls",
those "history scrolls kept hidden from the masses" in which the
Downfall of Man is described, along with the Rise of Apes. Apes in
their own time (3955) had been led to believe that the Simian
Civilization dates back only to the time of the Lawgiver, some "1,200
years ago": when Cornelius tells the Tribunal that he'd found
evidence in the Forbidden Zone of a civilization PRE-DATING the
writing of the Sacred Scrolls, Honorius objected, saying that
Cornelius' remarks are "profane" (and irrelevant). Thus, Apes had
believed, in 3955, that their culture dates back only to about 2755
or so.

But those "Secret Scrolls" tell about the Plague that killed off the
Dogs and Cats -- accurately, since the Dogs and Cats DO die off
within a single month in the year 1983. Those scrolls also state that
Man began taking Apes as pets -- which is also accurate. The scrolls
also stated that those pet-Apes were later enslaved -- which is also
accurate.

--

> Hello All Has any one had any problems with their new DVD set. On

----- Original Message -----

From: patrickmichaeltilton

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 7:58 AM

Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Dehn's plot...

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> I love that scene in the cage. It's just two apes communicating
as mothers despite their differences in intelligence. I never took
that scene to mean she was going to switch the babies. - - - Jeff
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

*** Huh?

We know that Heloise gave birth to a daughter (named Salome). Doesn't
Armando refer to Salome as Lewis Dixon's god-daughter?

We know that Armando gave Zira the medallion of St. Francis of Assisi
to put around her newborn baby's neck, for protection.

We know that Zira specifically wanted to "say goodbye" to Heloise, as
one mother to another, and Zira gives that serious-as-a- heartattack
look...

We know that Armando refers to Heloise's baby as a "he" when the cops
check out his circus -- even though he knows the child SHOULD be
a "she"...

We know that Zira leaves -- purposely -- that "carpetbag" suitcase in
the oil-rig workings, to be found by a workman (as it was).

Zira, when on the derelict ship, refers to the baby chimp in her arms
as a "he" to Cornelius -- indicating that she knows something her
very own husband does NOT know: that she'd switched babies and not
told anybody that she'd done so.

At the very end of "ESCAPE" Armando talks to the baby chimp, knowing
that it is not Salome, but Baby Milo... and the St. Francis medallion
is draped around its neck.

All this tells us that Zira, in order to safeguard the life of her
only son, switched her baby with that of Heloise, taking Salome with
her and NOT letting anybody else know she'd done so -- not even her
husband. The last time Zira and Cornelius speak with Lewis and
Stevie, Cornelius asks for a gun so as to give them the means to end
their own lives rather than be killed by the ones hunting them... and
Zira pleads for Lewis to comply.

Zira wants the Authorities to believe that the "threat" to Mankind
has been eliminated -- so that they won't pursue her true child.
Thus, she needs the Authorities to kill her, to kill Cornelius, and
to kill Salome (in the false belief that Salome is Zira's child).

Of COURSE Zira intended to switch babies in that scene where she
proceeds to "say goodbye to Heloise"!

When Dehn wrote "ESCAPE" he KNEW he'd be writing a 4th Apes film,
too. He knew that he should leave this 3rd Apes film open for a
sequel, unlike the blow-up-the- planet ending of the 2nd film (which
he miraculously worked around). He fully intended -- while plotting
out ESCAPE -- for CONQUEST to be about the Ape Revolt, led by the Son
of Zira and Cornelius. All the "prophecies" told in "ESCAPE" by the
interrogated Ape-onauts to Hasslein were intended to tie-in to what
REALLY happens in "CONQUEST".

In "ESCAPE" Cornelius told the Commission that Apes in his time
(3955) had been speaking English for "nearly 2,000 years". After the
Commission meeting, he tells Lewis & Stevie that the ONLY thing
they'd lied about to the Commission was whether or not they knew
Taylor. Cornelius had LIED, saying to General Faulkner, "No... is he
a soldier?" In order to keep from divulging the destruction of the
Earth to the Commission, Cornelius lied about not knowing Taylor.

So we KNOW that the Talking Apes prehistory known to Cornelius dates
back to the late 20th Century -- nearly 2,000 years prior to 3955.

Dehn, then, has Cornelius AND Zira later on LIE to Hasslein that
after the Pet Plague the first talking ape wouldn't arrive on the
scene until some 500 years had passed -- CONTRADICTING HIS EARLIER
TESTIMONY TO THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION.

Cornelius and Zira had both read those "Secret Scrolls",
those "history scrolls kept hidden from the masses" in which the
Downfall of Man is described, along with the Rise of Apes. Apes in
their own time (3955) had been led to believe that the Simian
Civilization dates back only to the time of the Lawgiver, some "1,200
years ago": when Cornelius tells the Tribunal that he'd found
evidence in the Forbidden Zone of a civilization PRE-DATING the
writing of the Sacred Scrolls, Honorius objected, saying that
Cornelius' remarks are "profane" (and irrelevant). Thus, Apes had
believed, in 3955, that their culture dates back only to about 2755
or so.

But those "Secret Scrolls" tell about the Plague that killed off the
Dogs and Cats -- accurately, since the Dogs and Cats DO die off
within a single month in the year 1983. Those scrolls also state that
Man began taking Apes as pets -- which is also accurate. The scrolls
also stated that those pet-Apes were later enslaved -- which is also
accurate.

But what was NOT accurate -- what those scrolls probably DIDN'T
state, but what Cornelius and Zira LYINGLY CLAIMED they stated -- was
the timeframe of those events. Cornelius told Hasslein that Apes were
Pets for about "two centuries".. . and Zira claims that the enslaved
apes turned the tables on their masters after "three more centuries"
when a TALKING APE said "NO!" for the FIRST time... but this CANNOT
be true, since Cornelius had already truthfully testified to the
Presidential Commission that Apes had been speaking English for about
TWO THOUSAND YEARS.

Cornelius wants Hasslein (and the other goons) to believe that the
future Ape Rebellion won't happen for another 500 years, giving Man
plenty of time to lord it over their miserable slaves. He and Zira
want these humans to believe a LIE.

Because THEY KNOW that the REAL leader of the Ape Rebellion is NOT an
ape named Aldo who supposedly won't show up for another half a
millennium.. . the TRUE leader is their unborn baby, in Zira's womb
during that very interrogation. Zira knows -- even before ultrasound
technology was around -- that her child would be a boy, because one
of those "Secret Scrolls" was probably the very one that John
Huston's "Lawgiver" character reads from in A.D. 2670. By the time
Zira and Cornelius are being subjected to the hostile interrogation
by Hasslein, E1, and E2 at Camp Eleven, they've probably come to
accept the notion that the "parent apes" written about long before
their time -- the ones who were to be "brutally murdered" after
begetting and bearing the Savior named CAESAR who would free the Apes
from the yoke of slavery -- the ones who had traveled backwards
through Time from Earth's own future were THEMSELVES.

Zira KNOWS she and Cornelius are going to be "brutally murdered" (as
that scroll says). And Cornelius knows that their son, Caesar, not
only will be the "Savior" of the Apes and the King who rules the post-
apocalyptic world... but also that Caesar's son (Cornelius' grandson,
named "Cornelius" after himself) would be murdered by an ape named
ALDO...

... which is why Cornelius goes out of his way to inform Hasslein
that the first ape to speak -- to REFUSE, to say "NO!" to a human
slavemaster -- would be named "Aldo". He tells Hasslein this in hopes
that ANY ape named "Aldo" might be killed by fearful humans, so as to
prevent the murder of his grandson.

Everything that Zira and Cornelius do in the latter half of "ESCAPE"
serves to fulfill the "past history" they'd learned about from those
history scrolls that THEY had read prior to accompanying Milo on
their flight -- EXCEPT for the murder of Caesar's son: THAT event
from their past history they would do ANYTHING to prevent, if at all
possible. They know their own son, Caesar, will be the King of the
Ape-and-Human society that survives the "vilest war in Man's
history"... but Caesar will be a King without a surviving dynasty.
With Caesar's son dead, there won't be any dynasty of CHIMPANZEE
KINGS to rule over the world. Remember in "BENEATH" when Cornelius
laments, "We chimpanzees are too few... How can we take any
initiative when THEY are in control?" Cornelius and Zira, after they
witness the Earth's destruction -- a result of a gorilla-fomented war
of aggression -- would prefer it if Apes were ruled by a CHIMPANZEE,
would they not? When they find themselves back in their own
Prehistory, they know that Zira's unborn child WILL BE the Savior,
the one born to "parent apes" who had "descended on Earth from
Earth's own future"... but that chimp Savior's dynasty is doomed to
end with the death of young Cornelius UNLESS they can somehow prevent
Aldo from murdering him.

What better way, given their limitations, than to tell Hasslein that
the Talking Ape who'll make trouble for Mankind in their Future will
be named "Aldo"? Any ape with that name -- be it a gorilla, a chimp,
or an orangutan -- would be as good as dead. If a slave ape were to
be given such a name by its master, the Authorities -- looking for
any ape named "Aldo" -- would immediately target that ape for
assassination. Hasslein (or any like-minded human) would be
eliminating the threat to Cornelius and Zira's grandson under the
false belief that they were removing a threat to Mankind.

Dehn, when he wrote "ESCAPE" -- leaving it open for the sequels he
was already plotting out -- knew how that Future History would
unfold, and despite the plot elements introduced by the Corringtons,
Dehn's hand would be the final one to shape that history. He was
using the paradigm of the Epic Hero to mold the life story of Caesar,
from his Miraculous Conception (2,000 years after his 'Virgin Birth')
and endangered childhood to his symbolic 'Death', Resurrection, and
Descent into 'Hell'. Dehn was a poet, and he KNEW this Epic Hero
motif through and through. He knew what he was doing. And that scene
where Zira says "goodbye" to Heloise is fully a part of that scenario.

Patrick

>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "luke_the_drifter52" <JLKINSER1970@>
> wrote:
> > Hello All Has any one had any problems with their new DVD set. On
> disc 7, the first DVD in the set that starts the TV series, when
> Virdon and Burke first confront Zaius in his office, my DVD locks

> and skips a few seconds. I received a replacement from Amazon and

> the smae issue. Has any one else had this problem?
>
> -- Sorry, can't really help John as I haven't got the damn things

> the Aussie ones would probably have a whole set of different

> anyway?) But if you are having the same problem with different
> replacement copies then maybe you should contact someone at Fox?
>
> Not sure who you would approach. There was the suggestion that

> to man' about anything Apes was a certain bloke called Steve

> (Steve.Feldstein@...) but I don't like your chances of getting
> anything worthwhile from him as I have sent numerous emails asking
> about POTA releases etc. to him only to receive either no answers

> to be redirected onto various of his 'minions' who also show a
> distinct lack of knowledge on matters Ape (if they bothered to

> at all that is!!)
>
> Neil
>

--------- Original Message --------
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
To: "PotaDG@yahoogroups.com" <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: {Disarmed} [PotaDG] Re: Planet of the Apes Ultimate Question
Date: 13/06/06 20:53

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, "luke_the_drifter52 " <JLKINSER1970@ ...>
wrote:
> Hello All Has any one had any problems with their new DVD set. On
disc 7, the first DVD in the set that starts the TV series, when
Virdon and Burke first confront Zaius in his office, my DVD locks up
and skips a few seconds. I received a replacement from Amazon and have
the smae issue. Has any one else had this problem?

-- Sorry, can't really help John as I haven't got the damn things (and
the Aussie ones would probably have a whole set of different problems
anyway?) But if you are having the same problem with different
replacement copies then maybe you should contact someone at Fox?

Not sure who you would approach. There was the suggestion that the 'go
to man' about anything Apes was a certain bloke called Steve Feldstein
(Steve.Feldstein@ Fox.com) but I don't like your chances of getting
anything worthwhile from him as I have sent numerous emails asking
about POTA releases etc. to him only to receive either no answers or
to be redirected onto various of his 'minions' who also show a
distinct lack of knowledge on matters Ape (if they bothered to answer
at all that

Off the top of my head it was Zira and Cornelius who mentioned Aldo and they said only that he was an ape...?

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Pinero
Sent: Monday, 12 June 2006 10:39 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [PotaDG] Re: Dehn's plot...

quick question:  do the scrolls mention that Aldo is a gorilla?

atragon1@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/11/2006 11:20:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com , <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> I love that scene in the cage. It's just two apes communicating
as mothers despite their differences in intelligence. I never took
that scene to mean she was going to switch the babies. - - - Jeff
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

*** Huh?

We know that Heloise gave birth to a daughter (named Salome). Doesn't
Armando refer to Salome as Lewis Dixon's god-daughter?

We know that Armando gave Zira the medallion of St. Francis of Assisi
to put around her newborn baby's neck, for protection.

We know that Zira specifically wanted to "say goodbye" to Heloise, as
one mother to another, and Zira gives that serious-as-a- heartattack
look...

We know that Armando refers to Heloise's baby as a "he" when the cops
check out his circus -- even though he knows the child SHOULD be
a "she"...

We know that Zira leaves -- purposely -- that "carpetbag" suitcase in
the oil-rig workings, to be found by a workman (as it was).

Zira, when on the derelict ship, refers to the baby chimp in her arms
as a "he" to Cornelius -- indicating that she knows something her
very own husband does NOT know: that she'd switched babies and not
told anybody that she'd done so.

At the very end of "ESCAPE" Armando talks to the baby chimp, knowing
that it is not Salome, but Baby Milo... and the St. Francis medallion
is draped around its neck.

All this tells us that Zira, in order to safeguard the life of her
only son, switched her baby with that of Heloise, taking Salome with
her and NOT letting anybody else know she'd done so -- not even her
husband. The last time Zira and Cornelius speak with Lewis and
Stevie, Cornelius asks for a gun so as to give them the means to end
their own lives rather than be killed by the ones hunting them... and
Zira pleads for Lewis to comply.

Zira wants the Authorities to believe that the "threat" to Mankind
has been eliminated -- so that they won't pursue her true child.
Thus, she needs the Authorities to kill her, to kill Cornelius, and
to kill Salome (in the false belief that Salome is Zira's child).

Of COURSE Zira intended to switch babies in that scene where she
proceeds to "say goodbye to Heloise"!

When Dehn wrote "ESCAPE" he KNEW he'd be writing a 4th Apes film,
too. He knew that he should leave this 3rd Apes film open for a
sequel, unlike the blow-up-the- planet ending of the 2nd film (which
he miraculously worked around). He fully intended -- while plotting
out ESCAPE -- for CONQUEST to be about the Ape Revolt, led by the Son
of Zira and Cornelius. All the "prophecies" told in "ESCAPE" by the
interrogated Ape-onauts to Hasslein were intended to tie-in to what
REALLY happens in "CONQUEST".

In "ESCAPE" Cornelius told the Commission that Apes in his time
(3955) had been speaking English for "nearly 2,000 years". After the
Commission meeting, he tells Lewis & Stevie that the ONLY thing
they'd lied about to the Commission was whether or not they knew
Taylor. Cornelius had LIED, saying to General Faulkner, "No... is he
a soldier?" In order to keep from divulging the destruction of the
Earth to the Commission, Cornelius lied about not knowing Taylor.

So we KNOW that the Talking Apes prehistory known to Cornelius dates
back to the late 20th Century -- nearly 2,000 years prior to 3955.

Dehn, then, has Cornelius AND Zira later on LIE to Hasslein that
after the Pet Plague the first talking ape wouldn't arrive on the
scene until some 500 years had passed -- CONTRADICTING HIS EARLIER
TESTIMONY TO THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION.

Cornelius and Zira had both read those "Secret Scrolls",
those "history scrolls kept hidden from the masses" in which the
Downfall of Man is described, along with the Rise of Apes. Apes in
their own time (3955) had been led to believe that the Simian
Civilization dates back only to the time of the Lawgiver, some "1,200
years ago": when Cornelius tells the Tribunal that he'd found
evidence in the Forbidden Zone of a civilization PRE-DATING the
writing of the Sacred Scrolls, Honorius objected, saying that
Cornelius' remarks are "profane" (and irrelevant). Thus, Apes had
believed, in 3955, that their culture dates back only to about 2755
or so.

But those "Secret Scrolls" tell about the Plague that killed off the
Dogs and Cats -- accurately, since the Dogs and Cats DO die off
within a single month in the year 1983. Those scrolls also state that
Man began taking Apes as pets -- which is also accurate. The scrolls
also stated that those pet-Apes were later enslaved -- which is also
accurate.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

<.html

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> I love that scene in the cage. It's just two apes communicating
as mothers despite their differences in intelligence. I never took
that scene to mean she was going to switch the babies. - - - Jeff
------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

*** Huh?

We know that Heloise gave birth to a daughter (named Salome). Doesn't
Armando refer to Salome as Lewis Dixon's god-daughter?

We know that Armando gave Zira the medallion of St. Francis of Assisi
to put around her newborn baby's neck, for protection.

We know that Zira specifically wanted to "say goodbye" to Heloise, as
one mother to another, and Zira gives that serious-as-a- heartattack
look...

We know that Armando refers to Heloise's baby as a "he" when the cops
check out his circus -- even though he knows the child SHOULD be
a "she"...

We know that Zira leaves -- purposely -- that "carpetbag" suitcase in
the oil-rig workings, to be found by a workman (as it was).

Zira, when on the derelict ship, refers to the baby chimp in her arms
as a "he" to Cornelius -- indicating that she knows something her
very own husband does NOT know: that she'd switched babies and not
told anybody that she'd done so.

At the very end of "ESCAPE" Armando talks to the baby chimp, knowing
that it is not Salome, but Baby Milo... and the St. Francis medallion
is draped around its neck.

All this tells us that Zira, in order to safeguard the life of her
only son, switched her baby with that of Heloise, taking Salome with
her and NOT letting anybody else know she'd done so -- not even her
husband. The last time Zira and Cornelius speak with Lewis and
Stevie, Cornelius asks for a gun so as to give them the means to end
their own lives rather than be killed by the ones hunting them... and
Zira pleads for Lewis to comply.

Zira wants the Authorities to believe that the "threat" to Mankind
has been eliminated -- so that they won't pursue her true child.
Thus, she needs the Authorities to kill her, to kill Cornelius, and
to kill Salome (in the false belief that Salome is Zira's child).

Of COURSE Zira intended to switch babies in that scene where she
proceeds to "say goodbye to Heloise"!

When Dehn wrote "ESCAPE" he KNEW he'd be writing a 4th Apes film,
too. He knew that he should leave this 3rd Apes film open for a
sequel, unlike the blow-up-the- planet ending of the 2nd film (which
he miraculously worked around). He fully intended -- while plotting
out ESCAPE -- for CONQUEST to be about the Ape Revolt, led by the Son
of Zira and Cornelius. All the "prophecies" told in "ESCAPE" by the
interrogated Ape-onauts to Hasslein were intended to tie-in to what
REALLY happens in "CONQUEST".

In "ESCAPE" Cornelius told the Commission that Apes in his time
(3955) had been speaking English for "nearly 2,000 years". After the
Commission meeting, he tells Lewis & Stevie that the ONLY thing
they'd lied about to the Commission was whether or not they knew
Taylor. Cornelius had LIED, saying to General Faulkner, "No... is he
a soldier?" In order to keep from divulging the destruction of the
Earth to the Commission, Cornelius lied about not knowing Taylor.

So we KNOW that the Talking Apes prehistory known to Cornelius dates
back to the late 20th Century -- nearly 2,000 years prior to 3955.

Dehn, then, has Cornelius AND Zira later on LIE to Hasslein that
after the Pet Plague the first talking ape wouldn't arrive on the
scene until some 500 years had passed -- CONTRADICTING HIS EARLIER
TESTIMONY TO THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION.

Cornelius and Zira had both read those "Secret Scrolls",
those "history scrolls kept hidden from the masses" in which the
Downfall of Man is described, along with the Rise of Apes. Apes in
their own time (3955) had been led to believe that the Simian
Civilization dates back only to the time of the Lawgiver, some "1,200
years ago": when Cornelius tells the Tribunal that he'd found
evidence in the Forbidden Zone of a civilization PRE-DATING the
writing of the Sacred Scrolls, Honorius objected, saying that
Cornelius' remarks are "profane" (and irrelevant). Thus, Apes had
believed, in 3955, that their culture dates back only to about 2755
or so.

But those "Secret Scrolls" tell about the Plague that killed off the
Dogs and Cats -- accurately, since the Dogs and Cats DO die off
within a single month in the year 1983. Those scrolls also state that
Man began taking Apes as pets -- which is also accurate. The scrolls
also stated that those pet-Apes were later enslaved -- which is also
accurate.

But what was NOT accurate -- what those scrolls probably DIDN'T
state, but what Cornelius and Zira LYINGLY CLAIMED they stated -- was
the timeframe of those events. Cornelius told Hasslein that Apes were
Pets for about "two centuries".. . and Zira claims that the enslaved
apes turned the tables on their masters after "three more centuries"
when a TALKING APE said "NO!" for the FIRST time... but this CANNOT
be true, since Cornelius had already truthfully testified to the
Presidential Commission that Apes had been speaking English for about
TWO THOUSAND YEARS.

Cornelius wants Hasslein (and the other goons) to believe that the
future Ape Rebellion won't happen for another 500 years, giving Man
plenty of time to lord it over their miserable slaves. He and Zira
want these humans to believe a LIE.

Because THEY KNOW that the REAL leader of the Ape Rebellion is NOT an
ape named Aldo who supposedly won't show up for another half a
millennium.. . the TRUE leader is their unborn baby, in Zira's womb
during that very interrogation. Zira knows -- even before ultrasound
technology was around -- that her child would be a boy, because one
of those "Secret Scrolls" was probably the very one that John
Huston's "Lawgiver" character reads from in A.D. 2670. By the time
Zira and Cornelius are being subjected to the hostile interrogation
by Hasslein, E1, and E2 at Camp Eleven, they've probably come to
accept the notion that the "parent apes" written about long before
their time -- the ones who were to be "brutally murdered" after
begetting and bearing the Savior named CAESAR who would free the Apes
from the yoke of slavery -- the ones who had traveled backwards
through Time from Earth's own future were THEMSELVES.

Zira KNOWS she and Cornelius are going to be "brutally murdered" (as
that scroll says). And Cornelius knows that their son, Caesar, not
only will be the "Savior" of the Apes and the King who rules the post-
apocalyptic world... but also that Caesar's son (Cornelius' grandson,
named "Cornelius" after himself) would be murdered by an ape named
ALDO...

... which is why Cornelius goes out of his way to inform Hasslein
that the first ape to speak -- to REFUSE, to say "NO!" to a human
slavemaster -- would be named "Aldo". He tells Hasslein this in hopes
that ANY ape named "Aldo" might be killed by fearful humans, so as to
prevent the murder of his grandson.

Everything that Zira and Cornelius do in the latter half of "ESCAPE"
serves to fulfill the "past history" they'd learned about from those
history scrolls that THEY had read prior to accompanying Milo on
their flight -- EXCEPT for the murder of Caesar's son: THAT event
from their past history they would do ANYTHING to prevent, if at all
possible. They know their own son, Caesar, will be the King of the
Ape-and-Human society that survives the "vilest war in Man's
history"... but Caesar will be a King without a surviving dynasty.
With Caesar's son dead, there won't be any dynasty of CHIMPANZEE
KINGS to rule over the world. Remember in "BENEATH" when Cornelius
laments, "We chimpanzees are too few... How can we take any
initiative when THEY are in control?" Cornelius and Zira, after they
witness the Earth's destruction -- a result of a gorilla-fomented war
of aggression -- would prefer it if Apes were ruled by a CHIMPANZEE,
would they not? When they find themselves back in their own
Prehistory, they know that Zira's unborn child WILL BE the Savior,
the one born to "parent apes" who had "descended on Earth from
Earth's own future"... but that chimp Savior's dynasty is doomed to
end with the death of young Cornelius UNLESS they can somehow prevent
Aldo from murdering him.

What better way, given their limitations, than to tell Hasslein that
the Talking Ape who'll make trouble for Mankind in their Future will
be named "Aldo"? Any ape with that name -- be it a gorilla, a chimp,
or an orangutan -- would be as good as dead. If a slave ape were to
be given such a name by its master, the Authorities -- looking for
any ape named "Aldo" -- would immediately target that ape for
assassination. Hasslein (or any like-minded human) would be
eliminating the threat to Cornelius and Zira's grandson under the
false belief that they were removing a threat to Mankind.

Dehn, when he wrote "ESCAPE" -- leaving it open for the sequels he
was already plotting out -- knew how that Future History would
unfold, and despite the plot elements introduced by the Corringtons,
Dehn's hand would be the final one to shape that history. He was
using the paradigm of the Epic Hero to mold the life story of Caesar,
from his Miraculous Conception (2,000 years after his 'Virgin Birth')
and endangered childhood to his symbolic 'Death', Resurrection, and
Descent into 'Hell'. Dehn was a poet, and he KNEW this Epic Hero
motif through and through. He knew what he was doing. And that scene
where Zira says "goodbye" to Heloise is fully a part of that scenario.

Patrick

Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

 but let me also suggest that you consider getting a DVD recorder instead of just a player.  A DVD recorder is only slightly more than a player these days.

-- Rory

---

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, atragon1@... wrote:
*****************************************************************
> Patrick, great take on the "Aldo problem."
>
> If the Apes in POTA are decendants of Caesar's west coast Ape City,
and Cornelius had access to the very same scrolls that the Lawgiver
was reading from in BATTLE, then it would make sense for Cornelius to
try and falsify the time lines in his testimony to protect his future
family.

*** Hah! I'm not the ONLY one who thinks that makes sense!
------------------------------------------------------------------

> Knowledge of these scrolls would also inspire Cornelius and Zira to
take the extraordinary means of salvaging Taylor's ship and
attempting to escape earth by ways of space -- because they knew the
end was near.
>
> However, some holes in this theory still remain... In ESCAPE, when
the apeonauts are alone in their cage, why would they be so puzzled
as to where they are? They would surly know exactly where they are
and what they had to do. Milo only theorized as to where and when
they were.

*** I should elaborate, for your sake, to clear up this notion.

Cornelius and Zira both read those "Secret Scrolls" -- those "history
scrolls kept hidden from the masses" -- after the events of "PLANET"
and either before the events of "BENEATH" or DURING IT. In other
words, Cornelius may have been given a package -- from Zaius -- put
into his office mailbox (or some such place, where Zaius knew he'd
find it), right before he rode off with Ursus. The last time we see
Cornelius in "BENEATH" is when he and Zira are watching Zaius and
Ursus ride through Ape City towards their confrontation with the
chimpanzee Peace-protesters.

It may be that as Ursus and Zaius are leading the Army out of Ape
City and towards the Forbidden Zone that THEN (and not before)
Cornelius and Zira make their first acquaintance with those "Secret
Scrolls" -- in other words, AFTER they had encountered Brent. If they
had read those scrolls BEFORE they met Brent, then would they not
have shown them to him? After all, they know that Taylor came to them
through a voyage in Outer Space from a different time period, don't
they? Taylor references "my world WHEN I LEFT IT" at one point.
Wouldn't he have informed Cornelius and Zira that he travelled not
only through Space to get to their planet, but also through a
duration of 2,000 years?

If Cornelius and Zira had seen documents detailing the previously
unknown history of the Fall of Man -- the result of a vile war that
flattened cities -- a war which had happened around the same time
that Taylor left his world... then wouldn't they have told Brent
about this, IF they had known?

I'd argue that they became acquainted with those scrolls AFTER Brent
showed up. After Zaius left with Ursus.

As I picture it, Milo showed up the next day all worked up about his
amazing discovery of a spaceship prepped for launch on the shore of
the ocean somewhere in the Forbidden Zone -- further along than the
Statue of Liberty. At a location where Taylor would've found it had
he and Nova continued trotting along that beach BEYOND that buried
statue. But, since Taylor headed inland after that, he never found
that other ANSA ship and thus was trapped on the planet.

But Cornelius and Zira, when they first read that old scroll -- a
copy of the very scroll John Huston's character read from
in "BATTLE" -- they didn't believe it to be literally true. Why would
they? An ancient story about a chimpanzee king whose parents had
descended onto the Earth from the Future? Unless that scroll had
NAMED those parents -- naming them "Zira" and "Cornelius" -- why
would they assume that the story is true and that it refers to them?

I would argue that the scroll did NOT name them -- John Huston only
refers to the "parent apes" of Caesar. As far as Cornelius and Zira
are concerned (prior to accompanying Milo up into orbit), that scroll
is just an improbable myth.

But AFTER they see the Earth destroyed... AFTER they encounter the
shockwave and see the ship's EARTH-TIME clock clicking backwards...
AFTER the hair-raising re-entry and their encounter with the
uniformed and TALKING humans... when they are alone in that zoo cage
with Milo, THEN Zira and Cornelius wonder where the hell they are.

And Milo -- who has probably also become aware of the contents of
those scrolls, IF his friends had brought them along during their
voyage from Ape City to the ship and/or had spoken to him of them
then -- would then inform them of the fact that they had seen
the "date meter" clicking backwards about 2,000 years, traveling from
Earth's Future to Earth's Past.

THEN, and ONLY then, would Cornelius and Zira begin to speculate that
that improbable myth told in that old scroll was based on FACT. That
the ancient chimpanzee king Caesar DID exist, and that the "parent
apes" mentioned in that scroll MIGHT BE THEMSELVES.

And, the moment they would begin to countenance this notion, they
would also have to be shocked at what that scroll had said about
Caesar's parents -- that they would be "brutally murdered".

If they did come to believe that the baby gestating in Zira's womb
would, indeed, be the legendary "Caesar" they'd read about, they
still might try to do all they could to safeguard their own lives.
After all, nobody WANTS to die, if they can help it. But if events
are seeming to conspire against them... if the flow of history is
leading inexorably towards what seems like a foregone conclusion...
then they might've had no choice but to make peace with their own
imminent deaths.

BUT! Their consolation would be that "the child ape survived"... to
become the simian "Savior" who would lead both Ape and Man in a reign
of peace. And that could only happen if their unborn child survived.
Like all good parents, they care more about the life of their
offspring than they do about their own lives. That's why Zira
switches her baby for Salome -- knowing that if she and Cornelius are
murdered along with a baby chimpanzee, the human Authorities will
assume that the child was hers, leaving her REAL baby safe with the
ONLY human she trusts other than Lewis Dixon and Stephanie Branton --
the circus owner Armando. From that point, it makes sense for her to
precipitate her own death, Cornelius' death, and the death of the
switched baby Salome.

But, the way I see it, neither Zira nor Cornelius -- before their
trip into space with Milo -- had any inkling that they would be the
fulfilment of any old scroll's alternate version of simian
prehistory. Thus, they wouldn't go with Milo to that spaceship out of
any foreknowledge that Doomsday was near. They would go with him
because he was a trusted friend who was informing them that he had
found evidence of the high-tech civilization represented by the
talking humans they'd met (Taylor and Brent).
----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Getting back to Aldo. In an attempt to save his unborn grandson,
does Cornelius name Aldo in an attempt to change history with the
hope that Aldo will be destroyed before this tragedy takes place?

*** In a word, YES. Cornelius WANTS his son -- whom he believes to be
the "Caesar" from the Secret Scrolls -- to survive the coming dark
times of Plague, Slavery, Nuclear War, etc etc. But he does NOT want
Caesar's son to be killed by "Aldo". So, rather than name "Caesar" as
the Talking Ape who will lead the enslaved Apes to freedom five YEARS
after Apes were first taken as pets (and three YEARS after they'd
been turned from Pets into SLAVES), Cornelius tells Hasslein that
Apes were pets for a period of "two CENTURIES" -- and Zira says that
that period was followed by a period of "three more CENTURIES" of
enslavement prior to the moment when Apes "turned the tables" on
their masters. And, to save his eponymous grandson, Cornelius names
the Talking Ape that will begin that overthrow as "Aldo"... hoping
that Hasslein (or, some likeminded pro-human/anti-simian triggerman)
will terminate any ape named "Aldo" with extreme prejudice, out of
the false belief that they are safeguarding Humanity, rather than the
Dynasty of Caesar.

>If Cornelius did have the detailed knowledge, did he actually think
that he could change time?

*** That's a good question. Maybe he, as a scientist, thought it to
be either impossible or next-to-impossible to change time. Remember
when Armando -- in their presence -- tells them, "I hate those who
would try to alter Destiny, which is the unalterable Will of God"?
What might Cornelius be thinking just then, IF he had knowingly tried
to do just that in his calculated testimony to Hasslein at Camp
Eleven? It's just as well that he doesn't tell Armando, "Uh... ahem,
Armando? Uh, according to an old scroll we've read -- a scroll which
hasn't been written yet, but WILL be written -- uh, Zira and I were
described in it as the "parent apes" of a chimpanzee king... parent
apes who came from the Future, as we've done... and that scroll says
that our son, the soon-to-be-king, will beget a child who'll be
murdered by a gorilla named 'Aldo'... so, uh, I told Hasslein that
the Ape who's supposed to lead the Revolt against Man will be
named "Aldo". Armando... I, too, have tried to alter Destiny. In your
eyes, does that make me as bad as Hasslein... as those who wish to
kill us and our baby?"

I think that whether or not Cornelius believes that he CAN change the
Future (by lying to Hasslein), since the life of his grandson is at
stake, IT'S WORTH A SHOT! If it's worth it to Zira to sacrifice the
life of Salome -- ensuring that Heloise's innocent child is killed in
lieu of her own child -- then isn't it worth a simple LIE to
safeguard the life of their own grandson? For all he knows, it MIGHT
work, and THAT'S ENOUGH for him! Like Kirk inventing "corbomite" in a
game of poker where the lives of his crew are at stake...

>I think that the sacred scrolls he saw -- presented only a vague
outline of what would happen -- that Cornelius did not have access to
the very same scroll that was read in BATTLE, but perhaps a later
interpretation (after selective editing by the orangutans) that
leaves out Caesar and substitutes him with Aldo (ironically, perhaps
to appease the gorillas and give them a "hero").

*** Well, I'd disagree. I think that that very scroll is something
that Cornelius and Zira would've known -- because Zaius, though he
might hide such scrolls from the masses, would NOT destroy them if he
knew they were safely hidden from everybody but himself. He's
the "guardian of the Terrible Secret" (as Taylor called him)...
meaning that he had to have had firsthand information about the Fall
of Man, and the ONLY such info he COULD have would've been WRITTEN
TESTIMONY dating back to that era. The fact that so many details
which transpire before/during/after CONQUEST made it into those
Secret Scrolls proves that for all intents and purposes THAT scroll
read by John Huston was one of the scrolls Zaius would've had a copy
of. And THAT scroll was probably based on the scroll shown in
Caesar's hand in that final image from "BATTLE": the Statue of Caesar
HOLDING A SCROLL. "This is his story, in those far-off days..." says
this Lawgiver.

Mind you, I don't think that what was written in the scroll in
question is EXACTLY what we see depicted in "BATTLE". There's no way
that Caesar or Virgil or MacDonald (or ANYBODY from "Ape City") could
know about the conversations between Kolp and Mendez & Alma. They
wouldn't even know about the existence of Mendez & Alma -- only Kolp
(of those three) made the trip to Caesar's city. Caesar,
throughout "BATTLE", talks of the City-dwellers as "mad" and "mutant"
humans, and there's no evidence that he ever, later, extended any
olive branches towards those "mutants" in the City. He has the Armory
kept stocked with Guns, saying, "We must wait"... and the Lawgiver --
some 600 years after his death -- says to his followers, "We STILL
wait..." They wait for the DANGER from the Forbidden Zone to show up
again, prepared to ward it off with those guns in the Armory. A
danger that never again encroached on them.

I think that the story told by the Lawgiver to his class of children
is a RELIGIOUS EMBELLISHMENT of the "facts" which only WE, the
audience, could see. When Caesar goes on a journey to the Forbidden
City, this event is LATER described as a journey to HELL. To a
LITERAL Hell. And, instead of seeing mere pre-recorded images and
sounds of his long-dead parents, Caesar is depicted (in that Scroll)
as having encountered the GHOSTS of his murdered parents -- dwelling
in some part of "Hell" that is reserved for the souls of the Blessed
(as in the part of Hades called ELYSIUM in the Roman poet Virgil's
epic THE AENEID, where Aeneas encounters the soul of his dead father
Anchises).

And, instead of Kolp leading a bunch of living-yet-mutated Humans on
a military assault against Ape City, the scroll embellished this...
describing an army of GHOULS from HELL -- perhaps sent with Heaven's
blessing in order to punish the Sin of Aldo: the murder of an Ape by
another Ape. Thus, the story would culminate in Caesar doing the Will
of God by exacting God's vengeance on the First Ape Murderer, the
only way to get God to call off the forces of Darkness plaguing the
land...

The "most sacred law" says: APE SHALL NEVER KILL APE. But in order
for it to be a Law, there has to be a Punishment for the committing
of this unlawful act. APE SHALL NEVER KILL APE... OR ELSE! Or else
WHAT??? An eye for an eye. A life for a life.

Remember: nowhere in "ESCAPE" (or in "CONQUEST" for that matter) does
it say that the Ape-onauts were "sent by God" from the Future to the
Past so that their son could be the Savior, blah blah blah. The time-
travelling of the Ape-onauts may sure SEEM miraculous, but it was the
result of the SpaceTime-warping properties of the ANSA propulsion
system in the vicinity of the detonation-effects of the Doomsday Bomb
that caused this "jump" through Time. The writer of that scroll read
at the beginning of "BATTLE" had given that element of the story
RELIGIOUS EMBELLISHMENT, putting a "God" into the story where one
hadn't been in the actual History of the event. It is only another
step down that path of religious embellishment for that writer of Ape
scripture to put forth OTHER religious notions, such as:

1) Caesar was LITERALLY killed by Breck

2) Caesar then LITERALLY was Resurrected from Death (by God)

3) Caesar ruled Apes and Men because GOD HIMSELF ordained his kingship

4) The Apes who jumped up to "FIGHT LIKE APES" had actually been
resurrected from death, rather than merely FEIGNING death to fool
Kolp and his forces.

5) After being told by the ghost of his parents that God would
destroy the World at the End of Time, Caesar is further told that all
beings with Souls would be rewarded with "peace in Heaven" IF they
refrained from committing certain sins... but that they would risk
the anguish of Hell if they didn't obey God's Will -- later on, of
course, when these older scrolls are deemed Heresy, a NEW scripture
would be promulgated stating that "Man has no soul"... that only the
Ape's brain has that "divine spark" within it...

In other words, the TRUE events were so mythologized that they became
unbelievable to a scientist -- remember Zira suggesting to Cornelius
that the Sacred Scrolls may not be "worth their parchment"? As
scientists, they would tend to look at an old history scroll laden
with mythic, supernatural elements, and consider it to be unreliable
as history -- at least insofar as a literal reading of the text goes.
Like modern day scholars who study religious texts, they
would "deconstruct" the text in order to ascertain whether or not
there are elements of historical truth underlying the mythic veneer.
>
> Let's not be too hard on poor ol' Aldo. After all, if Aldo had not
killed Kolp when he raids the retreating school bus, Kolp would have
sent the signal to Alma to detonate the Alpha Omega bomb -- thus
ending the world at the end of BATTLE. Aldo's cold-blooded
assassination bought the earth about 2000 extra years that it would
not have had -- perhaps this was why the apes revised history to make
Aldo a more noble character.
>
> Bill

*** Bill, I would argue that the apes who wrote scriptures would have
no clue about what Kolp would have done. They didn't know that the
world might've ended then-and-there. There was no communication
between the Apes and Humans of "Ape City" and the 'mutant' Humans who
remained in the "Forbidden City" under the aegis of Mendez.

I would argue that THERE NEVER WAS A REVERENCE FOR ALDO IN ANY APE-
WRITTEN SCRIPTURE. Fans only THINK there had to have been one based
on Cornelius' LIES to Hasslein during that interrogation. But, as
I've argued, it makes perfect sense for Cornelius to have purposely
misinformed Hasslein about the name of the ape who supposedly first
said "No" to a human (to safeguard the life of his own grandson, who
would otherwise be 'prophesied' to be murdered by Aldo).

Besides, what exactly does Cornelius say in reference to this "Aldo"
who said "No" for the first time? He tells Hasslein that this event --
which supposedly happened about 500 years after apes were first
taken in as Pets to replace the dead dogs and cats -- is not
only "fully documented in the Secret Scrolls" but had been (in his
time, circa 3955) STILL COMMEMORATED BY HIS SPECIES.

BULLSHIT!!!

In 3955, the ONLY Ape who knows the truth about the Past -- the so-
called "Terrible Secret" -- is ZAIUS. Him and whomever else he may
have clued in on the Secret. It is a closely-guarded secret. The
citizens of Ape City are LIED TO by Zaius and his ilk, who've
caused "Knowledge" to "stand still" (as Lucius laments).

The Apes in 3955 believe that their culture dates back to the time of
the LAWGIVER, and Zaius dates 'his' Lawgiver at 1,200 years earlier
(circa 2755, which is 85 years AFTER the date when the 'Lawgiver'
portrayed by John Huston preaches to a mixed-race group of Apes and
Humans: in 2670. Honorius objects to Cornelius' claim of having
evidence of an EARLIER civilization (from "long before the Sacred
Scrolls were written"), calling it "profane".

In 3955, the 'official' State-sponsored version of Ape History does
NOT contain any information about a time when Humans could TALK...
owned Ape slaves... and THEN were overthrown by an ape named 'Aldo'
who was the FIRST ape to vocalize his opposition to enslavement.

There's no f***ing WAY that the Apes in Ape City in 3955 could
possibly be STILL COMMEMORATING this supposed event from a prehistory
which NOBODY is taught.

That line of dialogue to Hasslein, thus, is a LIE. He's painting the
Aldo he had read about in such a way as to make him threatening to
human interests -- warranting the use of harsh measures on the part
of Human Supremacists like Hasslein against any and every ape who
might appear on the scene with that name, ALDO.

There MIGHT have been a time when GORILLA HISTORIANS -- disgruntled
at the "human-loving" society built by Caesar and his partisans --
might try to retell the events of "BATTLE" in such a way as to make
Aldo's acts seem righteous, though. Such a human-hating gorilla might
write about how God, angry at Caesar for having re-enfranchised the
cursed humans and preferred them to fellow apes (such as the
gorillas), had decided to end Caesar's dynasty -- by ordering Aldo to
kill Caesar's son, who had been sent by Caesar to spy on him. If the
God of the OLD TESTAMENT could have the first king of Israel die
without his own offspring inheriting the crown (King Saul), so that
the kingship is transferred to a NEW king, one whom God loves (King
David), then why can't the God of the Apes likewise end one fledgling
dynasty (that of Caesar) in favor of a better ruler?

I could easily see gorillas sympathetic to Aldo's views writing down
an alternate version of Ape History, where Aldo is portrayed
sympathetically rather than vilified, and where Caesar is portrayed
as the one who initially "found favor in the eyes of God" yet
BETRAYED the Almighty (by becoming a "human-lover") and, hence,
deserved to see his dynasty come to a tragic end.

But, regardless of this, no pro-Aldo story would be promulgated in
the 40th Century, when all knowledge of the Fall of Man (and the Rise
of Apes after enslavement TO their former human masters) has been
expunged from the official history scrolls. There would be no
commemorations of such events, and for Cornelius to say to Hasslein
that in his day such commemorations DID occur is only proof that he's
LYING to Hasslein. For a reason. A very GOOD reason. To save, if he
can, the life of a grandson he'll never see... a grandson who is
otherwise 'doomed' to be murdered by a gorilla named Aldo.

Patrick Michael Tilton
EARTH-TIME 6-14-2006

>From: "Michael Whitty" <whitty@...>
>Reply-To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
>To: <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: {Disarmed} Re: [PotaDG] Re: Dehn's plot...
>Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:32:45 +1000
>
>Off the top of my head it was Zira and Cornelius who mentioned Aldo and
>they said only that he was an ape...?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf
>Of Peter Pinero
>Sent: Monday, 12 June 2006 10:39 PM
>To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [PotaDG] Re: Dehn's plot...
>
>quick question: do the scrolls mention that Aldo is a gorilla?
>
>atragon1@... wrote:
>In a message dated 6/11/2006 11:20:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:
>--- In <mailto:PotaDG%40yahoogroups.com> PotaDG@yahoogroups.com,
><veetus@...> wrote:
> >
> > I love that scene in the cage. It's just two apes communicating
>as mothers despite their differences in intelligence. I never took
>that scene to mean she was going to switch the babies. - - - Jeff
>----------------------------------------------------------
>
>*** Huh?
>
>We know that Heloise gave birth to a daughter (named Salome). Doesn't
>Armando refer to Salome as Lewis Dixon's god-daughter?
>
>We know that Armando gave Zira the medallion of St. Francis of Assisi
>to put around her newborn baby's neck, for protection.
>
>We know that Zira specifically wanted to "say goodbye" to Heloise, as
>one mother to another, and Zira gives that serious-as-a-heartattack
>look...
>
>We know that Armando refers to Heloise's baby as a "he" when the cops
>check out his circus -- even though he knows the child SHOULD be
>a "she"...
>
>We know that Zira leaves -- purposely -- that "carpetbag" suitcase in
>the oil-rig workings, to be found by a workman (as it was).
>
>Zira, when on the derelict ship, refers to the baby chimp in her arms
>as a "he" to Cornelius -- indicating that she knows something her
>very own husband does NOT know: that she'd switched babies and not
>told anybody that she'd done so.
>
>At the very end of "ESCAPE" Armando talks to the baby chimp, knowing
>that it is not Salome, but Baby Milo... and the St. Francis medallion
>is draped around its neck.
>
>All this tells us that Zira, in order to safeguard the life of her
>only son, switched her baby with that of Heloise, taking Salome with
>her and NOT letting anybody else know she'd done so -- not even her
>husband. The last time Zira and Cornelius speak with Lewis and
>Stevie, Cornelius asks for a gun so as to give them the means to end
>their own lives rather than be killed by the ones hunting them... and
>Zira pleads for Lewis to comply.
>
>Zira wants the Authorities to believe that the "threat" to Mankind
>has been eliminated -- so that they won't pursue her true child.
>Thus, she needs the Authorities to kill her, to kill Cornelius, and
>to kill Salome (in the false belief that Salome is Zira's child).
>
>Of COURSE Zira intended to switch babies in that scene where she
>proceeds to "say goodbye to Heloise"!
>
>When Dehn wrote "ESCAPE" he KNEW he'd be writing a 4th Apes film,
>too. He knew that he should leave this 3rd Apes film open for a
>sequel, unlike the blow-up-the-planet ending of the 2nd film (which
>he miraculously worked around). He fully intended -- while plotting
>out ESCAPE -- for CONQUEST to be about the Ape Revolt, led by the Son
>of Zira and Cornelius. All the "prophecies" told in "ESCAPE" by the
>interrogated Ape-onauts to Hasslein were intended to tie-in to what
>REALLY happens in "CONQUEST".
>
>In "ESCAPE" Cornelius told the Commission that Apes in his time
>(3955) had been speaking English for "nearly 2,000 years". After the
>Commission meeting, he tells Lewis & Stevie that the ONLY thing
>they'd lied about to the Commission was whether or not they knew
>Taylor. Cornelius had LIED, saying to General Faulkner, "No... is he
>a soldier?" In order to keep from divulging the destruction of the
>Earth to the Commission, Cornelius lied about not knowing Taylor.
>
>So we KNOW that the Talking Apes prehistory known to Cornelius dates
>back to the late 20th Century -- nearly 2,000 years prior to 3955.
>
>Dehn, then, has Cornelius AND Zira later on LIE to Hasslein that
>after the Pet Plague the first talking ape wouldn't arrive on the
>scene until some 500 years had passed -- CONTRADICTING HIS EARLIER
>TESTIMONY TO THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION.
>
>Cornelius and Zira had both read those "Secret Scrolls",
>those "history scrolls kept hidden from the masses" in which the
>Downfall of Man is described, along with the Rise of Apes. Apes in
>their own time (3955) had been led to believe that the Simian
>Civilization dates back only to the time of the Lawgiver, some "1,200
>years ago": when Cornelius tells the Tribunal that he'd found
>evidence in the Forbidden Zone of a civilization PRE-DATING the
>writing of the Sacred Scrolls, Honorius objected, saying that
>Cornelius' remarks are "profane" (and irrelevant). Thus, Apes had
>believed, in 3955, that their culture dates back only to about 2755
>or so.
>
>But those "Secret Scrolls" tell about the Plague that killed off the
>Dogs and Cats -- accurately, since the Dogs and Cats DO die off
>within a single month in the year 1983. Those scrolls also state that
>Man began taking Apes as pets -- which is also accurate. The scrolls
>also stated that those pet-Apes were later enslaved -- which is also
>accurate.
>
>--

>
>I think Zira must been in on the switch, otherwise then I just don't get
>why
>she threw the baby into the water. In fact, I've never been able to make
>sense of that move.
>
>-- Rory

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2006 1:26 AM
To: friends & fugitives; pota@yahoogroups.com; potadg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Marvel UK issue 87

Marvel UK issue 87 is now available to download from Hunter's site. Jason and Alexander are back in the popular Terror storyline, which you'll be able to enjoy for the next 12 weeks. This week, meet Lightsmith and the Wonder Wagon! This issue also has a letter column.

.

 How strange!  I have cable and have no problem recording HBO.

 

Watch DEADWOOD too.

 

-- Rory

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim "apefan" <apefan23@...>
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Planet of the Apes Ultimate Question

I got one of these Rory....so I could not have to deal with a VCR anymore and it works great! EXCEPT...if I try to record anything on HBO , the machine stops a minute into it and says that HBO is copyrighted material and can not be recorded!!! So now I have to keep the VCR to catch Deadwood for me whie I'm out of town!!

Tim

Haristas@... wrote:

 but let me also suggest that you consider getting a DVD recorder instead of just a player.  A DVD recorder is only slightly more than a player these days.

-- Rory

---

New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

---

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

---

Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

Do You Yahoo!?

> In a message dated 6/12/2006 12:09:12 PM Central Standard Time,
> veetus@... writes:
>
> > The Aldo in "Conquest" is a chimp who gets sedated before he can

> > That's Dehn's reference to the Aldo mentioned in "Escape", not

> > "Battle".
>
> How do you know he is "going to speak"?
>
> All that chimp does is a lot of grunting, nothing that sounds like

> start of any articulation..
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:34 AM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Lancelot Link Secret C.H.I.M.P.

I pre-ordered mine from Amazon and I got an email yesterday that it's on the way.  Should have it by the end of the week.

 

--Rory 

 
-----Original Message-----
From: John <DrZaiusDavis@...>
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 08:50:54 -0000
Subject: [PotaDG] Lancelot Link Secret C.H.I.M.P.

Was anybody able to get the Lacelot Link DVD today? I tried FYE,
Target, Circut City, Best Buy, and even Wal-mart and nobody had it.
Circut City and Best Buy both had it in their systems as coming out
today but had no copies.

---

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

There would be.

Look on ebay T!

Try to get them multi system too!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TZer0@...
Sent: Wednesday, 14 June 2006 8:11 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: {Disarmed} Re: [PotaDG] Re: Planet of the Apes Ultimate Question

Are there any region-free recorders?

I watch a lot of Japanese DVDs.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

In a message dated 6/12/2006 9:01:21 PM Central Standard Time, veetus@... writes:

I just think it makes sense that Armando switched the babies without Zira's knowledge. It's true, when would he have the chance, and why wouldn't Zira know it's not her baby, but no POTA movie is perfect. But the way she acts I don't get the sense she knows about the switch.

This is absolute lunacy!

As mentioned in a previous posting, it is SO obvious that Zira has the baby switch in mind when she enters the cage, and the only thing that it is missing is a light bulb over her head!

Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of atragon1@...
Sent: Saturday, 17 June 2006 12:09 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Planet of the Apes Art book

My favorite part of the BEHIND THE PLANET OF THE APES disc are great scenes of the fantastic concept art that Arthur Jacobs had put together in order to sell the idea to Fox.

 

I was thinking: "Man, this would make a great oversized coffee table book!". I was wondering if any such book had been put together (or may be in the process).

 

The only place that I know of where some of this artwork was reprinted were in filler articles in the Marvel B&W Apes magazine in the 70s.

thanks,

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Sunday, 18 June 2006 2:30 AM
To: friends & fugitives; potadg@yahoogroups.com; pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] New script online

We've just added another script to Hunter's site. It's an earlier draft for the final TV episode, "Up Above the World So High" that has a significantly different ending from the filmed version. Thanks to Mark Rogers for providing the scans for this script.

 

Also recently added to Hunter's site are cover scans of two Brazilian Apes books by Luiz Adami and Eduardo Torelli. You can find those on the miscellaneous page.

.

Thanks Greg.

Any chance you could tell us what this”significantly different ending from the filmed version” is?

Michael