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Well, count me as one of the three. A nifty ending to the first
chapter, with the revelation of A.A.'s arch-nemesis. Very cool.

I wonder if Lucius has a box of Avenger Ape scrolls tucked in the back
of his closet, or did his mom (or Aunt Zira) throw them out?

Greg

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil T Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> For those devoted fans of Avenger Ape out there (you know who you
are,
> all 3 of you) I have finally finished the first chapter and uploaded
the
> pages to the files section. Be careful now!.. ;-)
>
> Neil
>

I'm a HUGE fan.

But I am trying to drop a few pounds.....  :)

--------- Original Message --------
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
To: "PotaDG@yahoogroups.com" <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: {Disarmed} [PotaDG] Re: Avenger Ape - the ape avenger!
Date: 29/08/06 20:26

Well, count me as one of the three. A nifty ending to the first
chapter, with the revelation of A.A.'s arch-nemesis. Very cool.

I wonder if Lucius has a box of Avenger Ape scrolls tucked in the back
of his closet, or did his mom (or Aunt Zira) throw them out?

Greg

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, "Neil T Foster" <ntfoster@.. .> wrote:
>
> For those devoted fans of Avenger Ape out there (you know who you
are,
> all 3 of you) I have finally finished the first chapter and uploaded
the
> pages to the files section. Be careful now!.. ;-)
>
>

Cool Neil! Thanks!!

--- Neil T Foster <ntfoster@...> wrote:

> For those devoted fans of Avenger Ape out there (you
> know who you are,
> all 3 of you) I have finally finished the first
> chapter and uploaded the
> pages to the files section. Be careful now!.. ;-)
>
> Neil
>
>

Geez Louise! I thought "PLANET OF THE APES" was your
favorite film, Rory. Here I went out of my way to
delve into a bit that is ripe for a "PLANET"-only
advocate such as you -- ignoring all the sequels -- to
wonder about: the use of two specific words used to
describe a gorilla whose funeral Taylor "crashes".

You're always going on and on about how Dehn (et al.)
supposedly reduced POTA with all their so-called
mistakes and changes, blah blah blah, but when it
comes to details in "PLANET" which should help us all
to try to understand what the original movie was all
about -- and the Devil's in ALL the details, including
and especially the SMALLEST ones -- then why is it
that you can't come up with a single intelligent thing
to say about this? Your entire post is nothing but a
slam against me for having the gumption to discuss
POTA on a POTA discussion board -- to discuss it in a
more in-depth way than you prefer to.

So, you prefer to think about these subtle clues in
"PLANET" just "a little" and then blather on and on.
Well, I for one prefer to think about the details of
"PLANET" (and the sequel stuff) with a critical eye,
sorta the way Sherlock Holmes will be able to develop
an accurate assessment of somebody -- and astound
Watson, as a result -- by merely gathering up all the
little seemingly inconsequential details that are
there for ANY person's eyes to see, and DEDUCING a
"truth" that nobody else, not even a professional
detective like Lestrade, was able to do. That entire
approach made the Sherlock stories popular in the
first place -- so popular that Doyle later felt
"trapped" into having to write more & more of 'em,
rather than devoting his time to other literary
pursuits.

The devil's in the details, as every non-hack writer
knows. Serling & Wilson weren't hacks, and they went
out of their way to put subtle hints in their work
which served to embellish the backstory and setting of
this fictional world. References to a "Quota System",
etc. MOST people would hear Dr. Galen mention it and
it's in-one-ear-out-the-other. A more astute person
would file that detail away and wonder about the
implications of it, and their understanding of what
the screenwriters were trying to say will have been
broadened. Wilson -- a former BLACKLISTED writer --
will especially have been prone to including details
just breaching the surface that hint at darker
background subject matter, perhaps vainly hoping that
there'd be somebody in the audience who would be able
to catch 'em and reel 'em in.

Go ahead and reserve your "little" thinking about
"PLANET", Rory. It astounds me that for all the words
you've typed at these POTA Yahoo groups, you would
ever admit to having such a preference regarding your
favorite movie of all time: "I prefer to simply think
about it a little". A LITTLE! A movie you've seen
hundreds of times!

You've WATCHED the movie time after time... your eyes
have LOOKED at a screen and your ears have heard the
sound coming out of the speakers, but you somehow
missed SEEING what Serling and Wilson put in there.
Not for just a casual one-time viewer to catch, but
for somebody who bothers seeing it hundreds of times?
If you can't notice something that's been there all
along -- no matter how small a detail it seems to be
on the surface -- after watching it more than 100
times, what does that tell us about you?

You prefer to think about it "a little". And then slag
me for preferring to delve more deeply. So, "PLANET"
to you is like the Beatles song "REVOLUTION": you like
the way it sounds, but you don't seem to give a damn
what the f***ing lyrics mean, what Lennon was trying
to SAY with his words, as if his songwriting then was
no more "deep" than it was when "LOVE ME DO" was
written.

Go back and watch "PLANET" again, Rory. Pay attention
to the scene where Cornelius, then Taylor, then Zaius
each give their opinions about the meaning of those
artifacts that Cornelius had dug up in the Cave. They
squabble over the meaning of those items, argue over
whether or not some of the evidence is contestable or
not, haggle over whether or not one interpretation is
just merely "ingenious" and not necessarily True. The
whole scene represents the PROOF that the Ape
civilization's history isn't the WHOLE truth, and that
another level of True History has been ERASED by Zaius
and his ancestors, as "Guardian[s] of the Terrible
Secret". "And you're RIGHT! I have ALWAYS known about
Man...!" Zaius finally admits -- AFTER having had the
evidence flouted before him. Evidence he later
DESTROYS with explosives.

The details MATTER. All of 'em. You can't wholly
understand the movie unless you delve deeper into it,
and merely "a little" ain't enough by a long shot. I
get more and more out of watching "PLANET" with each
subsequent viewing -- as its makers probably HOPED
would happen, since they had SOMETHING TO SAY and had
to mask much of it through hints, innuendos, satire
and allegory.

Why have I ever expected more from you as a POTA fan?
Well, now I'm officially disillusioned -- and
underwhelmed. Go ahead and trash me, both you and T,
all you want: I consider it a compliment. Your
"little" thinking about POTA isn't worth its
parchment.

Patrick


--- Haristas@... wrote:

> In a message dated 8/27/06 12:10:40 PM Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:
>
>
> > All that from two words in the Minister's eulogy:

"warrior" and "master"! The implications are obvious,
and worth speculating about. I'm interested in hearing
others' thoughts on these matters.

> >
> > Patrick
> >
>
> Good lord, talk about getting all "serious" and

postulating on any word or phrase in a film. I doubt
even the screenwriters themselves would have had
anything to say about this -- EXCEPT, that all this
was to be "suggested" but not clearly delineated.
Somewhat ambiguous, open for you to fill in the gaps
yourself, and you certainly enjoy doing that, Patrick.
the reports we’ve been receiving. I prefer to simply
think about it a little, but to not get too carried
away. The concept of the PLANET OF THE APES is absurd,
when you try and explain it all it can't help but veer
into the silly.

>
> -- Rory
>

.html
-- <.html

.html <.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TZer0@...
Sent: Saturday, 26 August 2006 10:29 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: OT: POTA not the "Ultimate" con job

 

Caesar's bastard brother usurps the throne while he's away fighting the mutants in the Forbidden Zone.  Now THERE"S a comic!!!

.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Whitty
Sent: Saturday, 26 August 2006 8:49 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] POTA not the "Ultimate" blow job

I will forgive all IF I get the uncut Conquest and the deleted scenes.

.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, 29 August 2006 12:51 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Avenger Ape - the ape avenger!

Cool Neil! Thanks!!

--- Neil T Foster <ntfoster@bigpond. com> wrote:

> For those devoted fans of Avenger Ape out there (you
> know who you are,
> all 3 of you) I have finally finished the first
> chapter and uploaded the
> pages to the files section. Be careful now!.. ;-)

.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TZer0@...
Sent: Saturday, 26 August 2006 10:27 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Birthday Reminder

 

Is it me, or does the kid on the right look like Caesar's illegitimate Love Child?

Maybe that was Zelda in the Breeding Annex! --and not Lisa!?!

.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TZer0@...
Sent: Wednesday, 23 August 2006 4:05 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] A Name by any other Name.....

 

Just in case anyone thought I was kidding . . .

 

Spread spectrum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Tuesday, 29 August 2006 10:21 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com; potadg@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Revolution #6 in stores next week

It didn't make this week's Diamond Comics ship list, but it is on next week's:

 

http://www.diamondc omics.com/ shipping/ expected_ 090606.txt

.

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, 24 August 2006 10:03 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Digetible Chunks

I quickly skim Patrick's posts, then just as quickly hit the delete button!

.

<.html

Although I do believe I know everything, I am not yet at the stage where I think I know as much as Rory claims to!  ;)

Seriously, while I disagree with many things that many people say, I am always interested to hear what they say and how they got there.

Michael

--------- Original Message --------
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
To: "PotaDG@yahoogroups.com" <PotaDG@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: {Disarmed} RE: [PotaDG] Re: Digetible Chunks
Date: 30/08/06 18:46

-- I read them, sometimes you pick up on some good points.

 

Neil

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [PotaDG@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Haristas@aol. com
Sent: Thursday, 24 August 2006 10:03 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Digetible Chunks

I quickly skim Patrick's posts, then just as quickly hit the delete button!

.

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, 24 August 2006 10:07 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Taylor & Zaius and the End of the World

I hate the ending of BENEATH, but I've never thought it was an accident.  Both Heston and Zanuck were out to kill the thing.  I'd like to know what Arthur Jacobs was doing?  Was he asleep, or too busy with GOODBYE MR. CHIPS?

.

<.html

What do you mean by that! I LOVE Avenger Ape, I want more of Avenger
Ape!!!!

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: ntfoster@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 5:01 PM
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Avenger Ape - the ape avenger!



-- Oh you're the other one then. ;-)

Neil


-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf
Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, 29 August 2006 12:51 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Avenger Ape - the ape avenger!


Cool Neil! Thanks!!

--- Neil T Foster <ntfoster@...> wrote:

> For those devoted fans of Avenger Ape out there (you
> know who you are,
> all 3 of you) I have finally finished the first
> chapter and uploaded the
> pages to the files section. Be careful now!.. ;-)

.
[Image Removed]

.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 8/29/06 12:41:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

Go ahead and reserve your "little" thinking about
"PLANET", Rory. It astounds me that for all the words
you've typed at these POTA Yahoo groups, you would
ever admit to having such a preference regarding your
favorite movie of all time: "I prefer to simply think
about it a little". A LITTLE! A movie you've seen
hundreds of times!

Dude, I was "thinking" about PLANET when you, Patrick, WERE STILL POOPING IN YOUR DIAPERS!

Been there, done that. 

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 8/29/06 10:05:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, atragon1@... writes:

That said, I would think that the term "master" referred to the deceased gorilla's standing in his trade. A "master" hunter, a "master" tradesman. or perhaps "master" was a rank in the gorilla police force?

All fascinating topics that I never thought about until now!
Bill


You make more sense to me than Patrick, Bill.  Please take him on.

-- Rory<.html <.html

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Reminder from:		PotaDG's Calendar
Title:		Don Pedro Colley's Birthday
Date:		Wednesday August 30, 2006
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Next reminder:		The next reminder for this event will be sent in 8 minutes.
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Reminder from:		PotaDG's Calendar
Title:		Don Pedro Colley's Birthday
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Copyright © 2006  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | <.html

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In a message dated 8/28/2006 11:40:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

You're always going on and on about how Dehn (et al.)
supposedly reduced POTA with all their so-called
mistakes and changes, blah blah blah, but when it
comes to details in "PLANET" which should help us all
to try to understand what the original movie was all
about --

 

The last thing you should put in a sentence in your Posts

Pat, is the term blah, blah, blah.  People are already thinking

that as they read them.  Putting it in print in the middle of one

is tantamount to a post hypnotic suggestion.  They're gone

after that.  They've ceased to process ideas and information.

 

<.html

.html <.html

>As always, I enjoy Patrick's exploration into the

nitty-gritty!

*** Nice to hear ;)
----------------------------------------------------

>1) I think that the term "warrior" as used by the

priest, was synonymous with "hunter," And as we all
know, that no doubt meant "hunter of humans," There
was no evidence that the Apes engaged in any kind of
warfare, at least not within their recent history.

*** He refers to the deceased as a "hunter...
warrior... Defender of the Faith." Isn't it redundant
to use two synonyms in a row, if "warrior" is to mean
the same thing as "hunter"?

You says there's "no evidence" of Ape warfare, but
what about that whole "Apostasy" thing? Zaius tells
Cornelius that "only an Apostate would flee to the
Forbidden Zone" -- which means that such flights from
religious persecution once DID happen. How long ago
the last one was, is anybody's guess, but there HAD to
have been Ape apostates who fled in desperation into
the Zone, and my post suggested the possibility that
they fled from the equivalent of ape "jihadists".

Although they may have a law stating "Ape Shall Never
Kill Ape" -- THAT law doesn't seem to apply to all
life-taking: Zaius warns Cornelius that if he persists
in pointing guns in his direction, he'll HANG for HIGH
TREASON, and Cornelius mentioned getting his head
chopped off for Heresy. Oh, the most he'd get for that
is "two years" in Ape Prison (according to Zaius), at
least NOWADAYS... but in past times, perhaps the
simian society actually punished Heresy with
decapitation. That would explain Cornelius' line,
anyway. "Ape Shall Never Kill Ape" unless it is the
Will of God, as spoken by His prophet, the Lawgiver...

Question: What would happen to an Apostate if he did
NOT flee to the Forbidden Zone? What would the
authorities DO to him? What had happened to apes from
previous times, when they violated one of the
Lawgiver's precepts? If they hang traitors, what do
they do to full-fledged enemies of their Religion?
What do they do when a sizable percentage of the
population rebels against the precepts of the
Lawgiver? Wouldn't going to "holy war" against them be
par-for-the-course? When the Minister gives his
blessing to Ursus' invasion of the Forbidden Zone, he
calls it "the eve of a Holy War undertaken for [God's]
sake". These apes are NOT above waging holy war. And
Ursus was on the verge of having his soldiers massacre
the chimp protestors blocking the Army's way out of
Ape City -- until Zaius stopped him: "Wait! We don't
want martyrs, do we?" Echoes from a time, perhaps,
when he was a much younger orangutan, when chimps
apostates were killed in a "just" Holy War?

--------------------------------------------------

>There was a passage in Beneath where Ursus says that

the Forbidden Zone was closed for centuries -- and
since Ape City is surrounded by the Forbidden Zone,
this would imply that no one had entered or left Ape
City for that time period -- therefore there could be
no recent external wars.

*** Well, I wasn't talking about external wars. I was
suggesting that some of the apes in Ape City --
chimps, to be precise -- rebelled against the strict
laws based on the Lawgiver's teachings, and there was
a backlash from the enforcers of those laws. As a
result, not only was there loss-of-life -- the
martyring of some chimps who were essentially
slaughtered by overzealous, religious gorilla warriors
-- but subsequently an institutionalized
discrimination system was forced on them: the Quota
System. Later, after enough time had passed and the
chimps weren't being so uppity, the system was
abolished, allowing for more advancement for the
chimpanzees.
---------------------------------------------------

>The gorillas were kind of a police force who's

primary function was to keep the human population in
check and their secondary was to keep the apes in
line. Its only when a tangible threat from the
Forbidden Zone finally emerges that the gorillas are
mobilized into an army.

*** I agree. But to "keep the apes in line" implies
the threat of force, doesn't it? If a group of chimps
is fed up with the status quo ["I say that it's time
for a change!"], what options do they have? There's a
hint that Zira (and other like-minded pacifists) would
try to take advantage of the absence of the
gorillas... in order to force a change, perhaps? In
Avallone's novelization (based on an earlier script),
Cornelius says that Zaius and Ursus "have to show
unity" -- and Zira responds, "So should the
chimpanzees."

"But, Zira," Cornelius protested. "We're too few. We'd
be cutting our own throats. How can WE take any
initiative, while--" he gestured toward the rolling
gorilla army trooping past their home, "THEY'RE here."

Zira then says, "Has it occurred to you that
tomorrow--they WON'T be here?" And Cornelius knows
that she's thinking of 'REVOLT!' If the gorilla army
is off in the Forbidden Zone, there won't be enough
gorillas in Ape City to cut the throats of a chimp-led
revolutionary citizens' uprising.

What kind of "danger" was Zira in when she was merely
clapping during Ursus' Citizens Council meeting?
"Stop, you're in danger!" What, is some gorilla going
to bash her head in with a truncheon, just for her
"behavior at the meeting"?

------------------------------------------------

>2) As for the term "master" lets explore the

possibilities of what this could mean... There is no
evidence that there were apes in slavery... this could
not refer to slavery over humans either - as it was
considered madness to try to domesticate man. I also
don't see any evidence that ape society was a feudal
one. There is no evidence of any land barons or
privately held plantations. From all that is seen in
the first two films, Ape society is a Marxist communal
one. Everyone (and I mean everyone) wears the same
style of clothes and lives in the same "Flinstones"
style of structure -- there are no rich -- there are
no poor. This implies a classless society on the
surface; however, as even Taylor clearly observes:
"some apes are more equal than others..." (i.e.:
orangutans get the perks).

As I recall, none of the films show any apes
interested in monetary or material gains. Ape society
in the TV series, to the contrary, is a feudal society
-- with humans in bondage, apes in indentured
servitude, and apes very interested in wealth and
property.

*** I think you're forgetting about Lucius' comments
to Julius: "If [Taylor] can speak, he belongs in a
public zoo. But what'll probably happen is some
MONEY-MAD GROWN-UP will put him in a circus, and then
we'll have to PAY to see what we rightfully--"

Evidently, there are "money-mad" adult Apes in this
society, and Lucius is one of those who make speeches
denouncing that aspect of their culture.

I think there's room for wealthy "money-mad"
land-owning Apes who just MAY be charging exorbitant
prices for rent. An ape who owns land yet is NOT
"money-mad" would charge less money for rent, hence be
deemed a "generous master".

--------------------------------------------------

>That said, I would think that the term "master"

referred to the deceased gorilla's standing in his
trade. A "master" hunter, a "master" tradesman. or
perhaps "master" was a rank in the gorilla police
force?

*** I still don't see how the word "generous" applies
to these other options. "... generous master..." A
generous master Hunter? A generous master in the
gorilla police-force? Maybe he doles out a generous
amount of whup-ass when the chimps get uppity!

--------------------------------------------------

>All fascinating topics that I never thought about

until now!
Bill

*** Thanks for taking the time to respond, Bill. Now
THIS is the kinda POTA on-topic chat that I dig. Sure
beats wasting time trying to engage Tweedledum and
Tweedledumber in insightful POTA discussions!

Patrick

.html.html In a message dated 8/30/06 5:36:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

I often wonder just how secluded Ape City is supposed to be and I do think it is isolated from any other cities or settlements.

No, I don't agree.  There had to be a larger community than what we saw in the budget-limited original films.  You have to remember that a civilization isn't going to survive for two thousand years as this one little isolated community.  In fact, my belief has always been that what we see in PLANET is the point at which the civilization of the apes has shrunk to by that time, the desert wastes surrounding the "greenbelts" ever increasing.  Earth is a dying planet.  But still, I think there had to be more than just a single "Ape City."  This is why I've constantly argued with what seems to me to be the majority opinion that what's shown on Cornelius' map occupies only a small area near what was NYC.  In order to support a simian civilization of two thousand years, along with a wild human and other "animal" species poulation, the area of fertile ground would have to be LARGE!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 8/30/06 9:35:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

*** Thanks for taking the time to respond, Bill. Now
THIS is the kinda POTA on-topic chat that I dig. Sure
beats wasting time trying to engage Tweedledum and
Tweedledumber in insightful POTA discussions!

Patrick

OK then, Patrick, tell me... Did all these "wars amongst the apes" take place in the tiny little world of the "greenbelts" that you so pathetically cling to? (You know, somewhere just south of what was once Newark, NJ!)  In fact, it sounds as if you contend it all took place just around the environs of Ape City.  It's just too silly, Patrick.  Too "comic-bookish."

I would much rather imagine that the greenbelts were once much larger, covering great swaths of the East coast, and that communities of apes rose and fell and rose again many times over the long course of two thousand years.  Seems to make more sense to me.

-- Rory<.html <.html

Sorry I'm so late again, but I'm the fourth guy who loves Ape Avenger!

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, PofTAfan@... wrote:
>
> What do you mean by that! I LOVE Avenger Ape, I want more of
Avenger
> Ape!!!!
>
> Kevin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ntfoster@...
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 5:01 PM
> Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Avenger Ape - the ape avenger!
>
>
>
> -- Oh you're the other one then. ;-)
> Â
> Neil
> Â
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Tuesday, 29 August 2006 12:51 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Avenger Ape - the ape avenger!
>
>
> Cool Neil! Thanks!!
>
> --- Neil T Foster <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> > For those devoted fans of Avenger Ape out there (you
> > know who you are,
> > all 3 of you) I have finally finished the first
> > chapter and uploaded the
> > pages to the files section. Be careful now!.. ;-)
>
>
> .
> [Image Removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>

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In a message dated 8/29/2006 9:05:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time, atragon1@... writes:

All fascinating topics that I never thought about until now!

 

Wait for the Mothership Bill...

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In a message dated 8/29/2006 5:47:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time, ntfoster@... writes:

quickly skim Patrick's posts, then just as quickly hit the delete button!

 

For some reason, probably the wording and structure,

skimming his posts is about as easy as roller skating

on a gravel road.  It shreds my mind like a cheese

grater.  Shakespeare he ain't.  It's like trying to skim

instructions for a Blackberry.  Baking bread is faster!

 

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In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:35:07 A.M. Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

>As always, I enjoy Patrick's exploration into the
nitty-gritty!

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them to a point.

It's about the same point where the Computer

Sales Guy stops being helpful and has 

started spewing technical jargon that only

he and the other Computer Guys understand

or even care about.  It's not that I've stopped

listening, so much as my mind has begun

to wander into more interesting territory.

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 3:36 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com; potadg@yahoogroups.com; friends & fugitives
Subject: [PotaDG] Marvel UK issue 98

The latest issue is now available to download from Hunter's site. This is the last installment in the Terror storyline for now, but don't worry, we'll see Jason and Alexander again. This week's issue also has a 2-page letter column and another installment in the second run of the Planet adaptation.

 

https://pota. goatley.com

 

Thanks,

Greg

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.html.html In a message dated 8/30/06 6:54:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

I can sense Patrick is getting quite irritated from the recent baitings.

I know he's a big boy and he can fight his own battles, but I would like to ask everyone to back off a bit with the insults.



He started it!

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.html.html In a message dated 8/30/06 8:38:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, atragon1@... writes:

After all, wouldn't at least one of the three astronauts have noticed from the arrangements of the start in the nighttime sky and recognized it as Earth's???

Yes, but the screenwiters took care of that with just one line of dialogue.  Remember "that strange cloud cover at night"?

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 8/30/06 1:40:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TZer0@... writes:

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy them to a point.
It's about the same point where the Computer
Sales Guy stops being helpful and has
started spewing technical jargon that only
he and the other Computer Guys understand
or even care about.

Wait a minute....  Are you saying, T, that Patrick is a "Computer Sales Guy"?

-- Rory<.html <.html

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In a message dated 8/29/06 9:05:29 PM Central Daylight Time, atragon1@... writes:

As I recall, none of the films show any apes interested in monetary or material gains.

On the contrary... There's the line in PLANET where Cornelius states that he's up for a raise... Thye do have a "wealth system" or at least some type of monetary system or the line is moot...

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In a message dated 8/30/06 7:37:38 PM Central Daylight Time, atragon1@... writes:

In BENEATH, the apes are plagued with a serious drought and food shortages.

If they are so close to famine, then why is Zira just so nonchalantly baking a cake... If they were facing a true famine, she would be conserving everything they had, not wasting it on a cake, which in times of famine would be seen as frivolous...  The reason that Ursus plays the "famine card" is to get backing for his true plan: An imperialistic invasion...

 

 

This change in the Earth can be seen from the very beginning of the film. These change were no doubt caused by Earth's drastic shift in its orbit around the sun. Remember, there is no moon.

Again with the moon bit... You know it could have been "new moon" when they were wandering around out there, so it wouldn't have been visible... OR, the "cloud covered nights" may have kept it hidden: There'd still be the "luminosity" from the glowing moon, but the clouds would have actually been covering it...

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I guess my only question to you is this: You always say that the only things you consider "canon" are the things that actually appeared on the screen, yet here you are using dialog from the non-canonical book to defend your POV... Now I have no problem counting the lines that you used as "canon" because they jibe with" (and do not contradict) the actual on screen situation... Yet you have always said that "on screen is all that counts"... Can you explain all of this... Why you use the words to defend your views here, but if anyone else would use the lines from the book, they'd be accused of going outside of the canon?

 

 

In a message dated 8/30/06 8:34:10 AM Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

*** I agree. But to "keep the apes in line" implies
the threat of force, doesn't it? If a group of chimps
is fed up with the status quo ["I say that it's time
for a change!"], what options do they have? There's a
hint that Zira (and other like-minded pacifists) would
try to take advantage of the absence of the
gorillas... in order to force a change, perhaps? In
Avallone's novelization (based on an earlier script),
Cornelius says that Zaius and Ursus "have to show
unity" -- and Zira responds, "So should the
chimpanzees."

"But, Zira," Cornelius protested. "We're too few. We'd
be cutting our own throats. How can WE take any
initiative, while--" he gestured toward the rolling
gorilla army trooping past their home, "THEY'RE here."

Zira then says, "Has it occurred to you that
tomorrow--they WON'T be here?" And Cornelius knows
that she's thinking of 'REVOLT!' If the gorilla army
is off in the Forbidden Zone, there won't be enough
gorillas in Ape City to cut the throats of a chimp-led
revolutionary citizens' uprising.

 

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In a message dated 8/30/2006 5:57:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

Could you read the posts as you make bread?

 

I suppose I could, if I had a bigger monitor.

 

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In a message dated 8/30/2006 12:44:19 P.M. Central Daylight Time, urko3085@... writes:

Jason and Alexander

 

So that's where that actor on Seifeld got his name.

 

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In a message dated 8/30/2006 5:57:57 P.M. Central Daylight Time, whitty@... writes:

I always like to read Patrick's posts, but my traffic is around 100 emails a day so I often see the length of it and think "OK - I'll get back to this one."

 

That's why Patrick doesn't have to write that book --

just print the posts and have them bound.  I'd like

to see his text messages. They must be interminable.

 

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In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:05:20 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

I know he's a big boy and he can fight his own battles, but I would like to ask everyone to back off a bit with the insults.

 

I will, if he'll tone down his overblown writing style.

Fair's fair.

 

 

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In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:12:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

Yes, but the screenwiters took care of that with just one line of dialogue.  Remember "that strange cloud cover at night"?

 

Yeah, there was a lot of convenient writing in the whole series.

It's still one of the best surprise endings of all time though.

 

 

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In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:14:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

Wait a minute....  Are you saying, T, that Patrick is a "Computer Sales Guy"?

 

No, but he'd probably make a good one.

Or a Comicbook Guy.  Both fine career

choices for him.  Or any other occupation

where more info than necessary is a plus.

 

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In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:56:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:

Again with the moon bit... You know it could have been "new moon" when they were wandering around out there, so it wouldn't have been visible... OR, the "cloud covered nights" may have kept it hidden: There'd still be the "luminosity" from the glowing moon, but the clouds would have actually been covering it...

 

There had to be a moon.

They couldn't rid along the

shore at high tide, remember?

And you have to have a moon

to have tides.  In fact you have

to have a moon to have a habitable

planet.  It has many functions

necessary for life.  Without a

molten metal core, no magnetic

field.  No magnetic field and you

let too much radiation through.

 

 

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-- And it's moving away from us every year! So even if the moon is
still there (and I choose to believe it is) by the time of Planet it
would be farther away but whether it would be so far away that it
would cause any major differences I wouldn't know.

Neil

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, TZer0@... wrote:

> There had to be a moon.
> They couldn't rid along the
> shore at high tide, remember?
> And you have to have a moon
> to have tides. In fact you have
> to have a moon to have a habitable
> planet. It has many functions
> necessary for life. Without a
> molten metal core, no magnetic
> field. No magnetic field and you
> let too much radiation through.

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Attachments :

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.html.html In a message dated 8/31/06 6:27:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ntfoster@... writes:

-- And it's moving away from us every year! So even if the moon is
still there (and I choose to believe it is) by the time of Planet it
would be farther away but whether it would be so far away that it
would cause any major differences I wouldn't know.

Neil

I like to think the moon got BLOWED UP REAL GOOD!  And that the "storm of meteors" that Taylor supposes about (during the scene at the beach in PLANET) may have indeed happened -- that being debris from an exploded moon.  It would certainly help explain how vastly altered the surface of earth was, something I don't think a nuclear holocaust alone would achieve.

Now, I don't think this "literally," I just kind of muse over it.

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 8/31/06 6:44:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, atragon1@... writes:

The moon may be there, but perhaps a serious shift in its orbit caused the climate changes we are seeing in PLANET. A nuclear blast (or even a series of repeated nuclear blasts)would not change the landscape of the Northeast so dramatically. There must be another cause of this climate change -- i.e., the moon has shifted it orbit or is completely gone.

And yes, I am aware the moon controls the tides -- lets not complicate explaining science fiction by mixing real science into the equations!
Bill


That damn line in PLANET about high tide!!!  The screenwriters should have caught that one.  Perhaps a shift in the moon's orbit is more likely, with some debris from a massive explosion, part of the nuclear war, hitting parts of the earth.  Makes sense to me, but I'm sure Patrick will be writing a book on it this weekend!  Oh jeez, what we're starting now!

-- Rory
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In a message dated 8/31/2006 5:44:42 P.M. Central Daylight Time, atragon1@... writes:

And yes, I am aware the moon controls the tides -- lets not complicate explaining science fiction by mixing real science into the equations!

 

Oh, well !

Patrick's Mothership Theory makes perfect sense then!

As long as were not going to bother with a basis in reality.

 

 

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In a message dated 8/31/2006 6:38:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

Now, I don't think this "literally," I just kind of muse over it.

 

After seeing that End Of The World thing on  20/20

I don't think much of anything would survive a Storm

Of Meteors, certainly not Apes and People.

 

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In a message dated 8/31/2006 6:44:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

Perhaps a shift in the moon's orbit is more likely

 

Maybe it was just in synch with the Sun and they couldn't see it.

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TZer0@...
Sent: Friday, 1 September 2006 4:28 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Surrounded by sand.....

After seeing that End Of The World thing on  20/20

I don't think much of anything would survive a Storm

Of Meteors, certainly not Apes and People.

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TZer0@...
Sent: Friday, 1 September 2006 4:26 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Surrounded by sand.....

Oh, well !

Patrick's Mothership Theory makes perfect sense then!

As long as were not going to bother with a basis in reality.

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TZer0@...
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 3:11 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Digetible Chunks

For some reason, probably the wording and structure,

skimming his posts is about as easy as roller skating

on a gravel road.  It shreds my mind like a cheese

grater.  Shakespeare he ain't.  It's like trying to skim

instructions for a Blackberry.  Baking bread is faster!

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Plonowski
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 3:36 AM
To: pota@yahoogroups.com; potadg@yahoogroups.com; friends & fugitives
Subject: [PotaDG] Marvel UK issue 98

The latest issue is now available to download from Hunter's site. This is the last installment in the Terror storyline for now, but don't worry, we'll see Jason and Alexander again. This week's issue also has a 2-page letter column and another installment in the second run of the Planet adaptation.

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Whitty
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 8:46 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] A Mother Ship to remember...

It actually amalgamates the Mothership from Monkey Planet and was quite well thought out, but not something I’d personally use.

Neil loves it though!

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 11:03 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Give it a rest will ya?

He started it!

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Whitty
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 8:53 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Digestible Chunks

Could you read the posts as you make bread?

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 11:55 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Surrounded by sand.....

If they are so close to famine, then why is Zira just so nonchalantly baking a cake... If they were facing a true famine, she would be conserving everything they had, not wasting it on a cake, which in times of famine would be seen as frivolous...  

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Haristas@...
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 11:10 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Surrounded by sand.....

Yes, but the screenwiters took care of that with just one line of dialogue.  Remember "that strange cloud cover at night"?

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of atragon1@...
Sent: Friday, 1 September 2006 8:41 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Surrounded by sand.....

 -- lets not complicate explaining science fiction by mixing real science into the equations!

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2006 2:28 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Avenger Ape - the ape avenger!

Sorry I'm so late again, but I'm the fourth guy who loves Ape Avenger!

.

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.html.html In a message dated 9/1/06 2:28:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TZer0@... writes:

In a message dated 8/31/2006 6:38:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

Now, I don't think this "literally," I just kind of muse over it.

After seeing that End Of The World thing on  20/20
I don't think much of anything would survive a Storm
Of Meteors, certainly not Apes and People.


Maybe just a little storm of meteors, you know, enough to put Radio City Music Hall next to the NY Stock Exchange.  That kind of thing.

-- Rory<.html <.html

Ariel....Ookla.....we ride!!!
Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: atragon1@...
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Surrounded by sand.....



In a message dated 8/31/2006 7:38:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Haristas@... writes:
I like to think the moon got BLOWED UP REAL GOOD! And that the "storm
of meteors" that Taylor supposes about (during the scene at the beach
in PLANET) may have indeed happened -- that being debris from an
exploded moon. It would certainly help explain how vastly altered the
surface of earth was, something I don't think a nuclear holocaust alone
would achieve.

Now, I don't think this "literally," I just kind of muse over it.

-- Rory
Now your talking! Hmmm. Sounds like what happened in THUNDARR the
Barbarian!
Bill

.html.html In a message dated 9/1/06 10:24:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ntfoster@... writes:

-- But if you think about it the Mothership theory actually does make more sense than what we are provided with in the movies doesn't it.

Neil


What doesn't make sense is Patrick's idea that Brent's ship comes from the same mothership that brought Taylor.  When Taylor first sees Brent in BENEATH he doesn't react as if it's a fellow crew member!

Other than that, I have no problem with the mothership idea -- Boulle did it, after all!<.html <.html

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In a message dated 9/1/2006 9:04:31 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ntfoster@... writes:

-- And those damn Mayans predicting the end of the world in 2012 as well...

 

Well, were not there yet.

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In a message dated 9/1/2006 10:15:21 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ntfoster@... writes:

We are in a severe drought over here in Queensland with water restrictions meaning we can only water our yards with buckets but there's a bastard up the road from me who still has a perfect green lush lawn...

 

Lawns only make sense in England where they were invented,

because it rains all the time.  There's a movement here to take

back the front lawn, and grow something you can actually eat!

 

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In a message dated 9/1/2006 6:47:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

Other than that, I have no problem with the mothership idea -- Boulle did it, after all!

 

What?  In Planet of the Men?

 

 

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Now I've been wondering something? When the Apes see the City of New York on there march to battle in Beneath the Planet of the apes, regardless of how the downfall of the human race takes place in POTA would the City of New York still be standing after 2000 years if left to it's own devices? I mean just assuming the city was left undamaged and was just abandoned,  would it even be recognizable after all that time? Could you even go in it like Virdon and Burke did in the TV series, and yes I know that was California?

 

Tom

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.html.html In a message dated 9/2/06 2:37:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TZer0@... writes:

In a message dated 9/1/2006 6:47:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

Other than that, I have no problem with the mothership idea -- Boulle did it, after all!

What?  In Planet of the Men?


T, how long's it been since you read the book!

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 9/2/06 4:15:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tshaf37@... writes:

Now I've been wondering something? When the Apes see the City of New York on there march to battle in Beneath the Planet of the apes, regardless of how the downfall of the human race takes place in POTA would the City of New York still be standing after 2000 years if left to it's own devices? I mean just assuming the city was left undamaged and was just abandoned,  would it even be recognizable after all that time? Could you even go in it like Virdon and Burke did in the TV series, and yes I know that was California?

Tom


I gave the Aussie dudes here some grief over this very same issue in their comic where San Francisco looked untouched by time!

I don't believe that after two thousand years there'd be much of NYC left except perhaps a big pile of sand.  Concrete crumbles pretty quickly, especially when it's affected by salts from an ocean breeze, and the iron superstructure of the skyscrapers would pretty much rust away to dust in two or three hundred years.

-- Rory<.html <.html

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In a message dated 9/2/2006 9:26:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

T, how long's it been since you read the book!

 

It's been a while.

Are you referring to Phyllis and Jen's ship?

 

 

 

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--- mlccougar@... wrote:

> I guess my only question to you is this: You always

say that the only things you consider "canon" are the
things that actually appeared on the screen, yet here
you are using dialog from the non-canonical book to
defend your POV...

> Now I have no problem counting the lines that you

used as "canon" because they jibe with (and do not
contradict) the actual on screen situation... Yet you
have always said that "on screen is all that
counts"... Can you explain all of this... Why you use
the words to defend your views here, but if anyone
else would use the lines from the book, they'd be
accused of going outside of the canon?

*** I think I addressed this very question a few years
ago, but it bears repeating, so here goes.

Each of us has the right to decide for ourselves what
IS and what IS NOT "canon". For example, there are
some who don't care for ANY of the movies, not even
the Schaffner/Heston flick of 1968, and consider ONLY
the original Boulle novel to be "official" or "canon".

And, there's at least one member here who would prefer
to consider ONLY the 1968 film to be "canon" -- to be
a "stand-alone" thing -- so that NONE of the sequel
movies count.

There are those who consider only the 5 movies to be
"canon". But NOT the TV show or any other POTA work --
just the 5 movies.

For myself, in specific -- for the sake of my own POTA
novel(ization)-in-progress -- what constitutes "canon"
is:

1) What ended up on-screen in the 5 movies and the 14
TV episodes, but NOT the cartoon or any of the various
comics, from Marvel on down. These on-screen details
are not the ONLY "canon" materials, though: for me,
they are the "default" canon -- and all other
potential "canon" sources MUST be able to be
reconciled to these, or they won't make it into my
book.

2) Extended bits of dialogue that were filmed and
which can be glimpsed on, for example, the NATO
trailer footage [eg. the extended Ursus/Zaius chat in
the steamroom... Taylor's monologue on "... simian
superiority..." etc] -- as long as those bits of
dialogue do not conflict with the on-screen stuff in
the Final Cut versions of the movies or the recent
Extended Cut of BATTLE.

3) Scripted scenes which were filmed, yet which, alas,
ended up on the cutting-room floor (like the Hunt
Leader trying to "eminent domain" Zira's wagon... the
pregnant Nova bit... the Ape-onauts witnessing
Doomsday... the 'prologue' scene of CONQUEST with the
security dudes killing an escaped chimp... etc). As
long as those scenes don't conflict with the on-screen
stuff, then for the purposes of my POTA project they
are acceptable as "canon".

What I'm trying to do is be as inclusive as possible
concerning the materials put into the screenplays,
especially if those materials WERE filmed yet later
nixed from the Final Cuts for whatever reason. I can
easily see some editing decision resulting in any of
those scenes being nixed for no better reason than to
trim a film down to a running time. But is that a
reason to deny its inclusion in a novelization? I
don't think so.

But let me state this again: what is canon for ME, for
the purposes of my POTA novel project, applies ONLY
for me. Every POTA fan can decide for themselves what
THEY consider "canon". For example, when Mike & Neil
write-&-draw a POTA comic like "WITHIN" it's obvious
that they consider "PLANET" and "BENEATH" to be canon,
and the details that are original in "Within" are the
"house" that is built upon that foundation. All this
talk about "canon" -- for me -- is merely to establish
a secure foundation of details upon which my POTA
novel will, like a house, be constructed.

I pity the "STAR WARS" novelists who have to wring
their hands over whether or not it was Han Solo or
Greedo who shot first in the cantina. Which version is
"canon" -- the original "STAR WARS" version, before
Lucas re-named it "Episode IV: A NEW HOPE" and
digitally inserted a blaster-shot from Greedo's gun ex
post facto? If I were writing a "STAR WARS" novel, I'd
be tempted to scrap ALL the sequels -- even the
magnificent "EMPIRE STRIKES BACK" -- as well as the
digital alterations done to "STAR WARS" and just go
with the original movie. I have a hard time digesting
the notion that "THE PHANTOM MENACE" is in the same
fictional universe that the original "STAR WARS"
introduced us to.

Patrick

P.S. Just as a comparison, think of Asimov's LAWS OF
ROBOTICS. The 1st Law states that a Robot may not harm
-- or, through inaction, allow harm to come to -- a
human being. The 2nd Law states that a Robot must obey
any order given to it by a human being -- BUT, if such
an order is given which would lead to a violation of
the 1st Law, the Robot must not obey it. So, a human
being can order a Robot to commit a murder, and it
would be compelled by the 2nd Law to TRY to obey it...
but the 1st Law would be the DEFAULT: the Robot would
ultimately be compelled to disobey the order so as to
prevent a human being from harm.

My POTA canon is such that the On-screen details are
the DEFAULT -- like the 1st Law. No matter what, they
trump any and every detail that may appear anywhere
else, be it in a Screenplay, a prior Novelization, a
MARVEL adaptation, a MARVEL original story, etc etc.

Capisce?

--- TZer0@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 8/30/2006 8:56:59 P.M. Central
> Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:
>
> Again with the moon bit... You know it could have

been "new moon" when they were wandering around out
there, so it wouldn't have been visible... OR, the
"cloud covered nights" may have kept it hidden:
There'd still be the "luminosity" from the glowing
moon, but the clouds would have actually been covering
it...

>
>
>
> There had to be a moon.
> They couldn't ride along the shore at high tide,

remember? And you have to have a moon to have tides.
In fact you have to have a moon to have a habitable
planet. It has many functions necessary for life.
Without a molten metal core, no magnetic field. No
magnetic field and you let too much radiation through.

>

---------------------------------------------------

*** The Sun, too, produces a tidal effect on the
Earth, so that even if the Moon were to be
sling-shotted outta Earth's orbit (like in "SPACE:
1999") there still would be Solar-induced tides. But
they wouldn't be as intense as the Lunar-induced
tides, since the Moon -- though much less massive than
the Sun -- is very very close to the Earth, so that
the tidal effects on the Earth are stronger.

Cornelius' line about "high tide", then, suggests that
there is indeed still a "moon" up in orbit around the
Earth. What does that do with Dodge's line, though?

Dodge refers to "cloud cover AT NIGHT" -- and the Moon
is visible in the sky at ALL TIMES OF THE DAY AND
NIGHT, depending on where it is in relation to the
Sun-Earth-Moon system. During a Solar Eclipse, the
Moon MUST be in the sky at the same time as the Sun,
since it is directly in-between the Sun and the Earth,
and can ONLY appear thusly during a New Moon.
Similarly, Lunar Eclipse has to occur when the Earth
is directly in-between the Sun and the Moon, occurring
only during the time of a Full Moon. There are still
some people who mistakenly assume that the Moon only
comes out at night -- probably because they've been
taught that when 'God' made the Sun, Moon, and the
Stars on the 4th Day of Creation, he made "the lesser
light to rule the Night". The Moon has a 50% chance of
being above the horizon during the Night (i.e. between
Sunset and Sunrise), and a 50% chance of being above
the horizon during the Daytime, too. Anybody who
doesn't understand this needs to either read a few
more books or just go outside every night for the next
30 days at the same time (say, Midnight), and see for
themselves. Half of those nights will be moonless.

In my own POTA scenario, the MASS of the Moon is still
orbiting the Earth in 3955, but it had been compressed
into a Singularity -- so that it is a Black Hole. Its
orbital parameters wouldn't change one bit, but such a
Moon-mass black hole would not be visible from Earth.
Its Accretion Disk, however, would likely be visible,
so that this could well account for any "strange
luminosity" in the sky at night.

This business about the "molten metal core" though,
that appertains only to the EARTH, not to the Moon. It
is the Earth's molten metal core that gives us the
magnetic field surrounding our planet and, thus,
protecting us from much of the high-energy radiation
streaming at us from the Sun. But it ain't the Moon
that blocks that radiation.

Patrick

--- mlccougar@... wrote:

> In a message dated 8/30/06 7:37:38 PM Central
> Daylight Time,
> atragon1@... writes:
>
> In BENEATH, the apes are plagued with a serious

drought and food shortages.

>
>
> If they are so close to famine, then why is Zira

just so nonchalantly baking a cake... If they were
facing a true famine, she would be conserving
everything they had, not wasting it on a cake, which
in times of famine would be seen as frivolous... The
reason that Ursus plays the "famine card" is to get
backing for his true plan: An imperialistic
invasion...

----------------------------------------------------

*** Zira says: "I think I'll make chocolate icing" --
she doesn't necessarily bake a whole cake. Just the
frosting. Why? Because SHE'S PREGNANT!!! "At least OUR
CHILD WHEN IT'S BORN won't be breast-fed on bile" she
says just moments before. Like virtually every other
female, she gets cravings due to her pregnancy.

And it isn't just in "BENEATH" where this Famine
business is mentioned. In "PLANET" the first time we
meet Dr. Zaius, when he shows up at Zira's workplace,
he says: "Man is a nuisance. He eats up his food
supplies in the forest, and then migrates to our green
belts and ravages our crops!" The situation is so dire
that he goes on to say, "The sooner he is
exterminated, the better! It's a question of SIMIAN
SURVIVAL." The very SURVIVAL of the Apes, in "PLANET",
is nearing a crisis point.

Dehn merely took this bit from "PLANET" and
extrapolated it several months down the line. During
the "weeks" when Taylor was incommunicado between the
"Damn dirty ape" line and his Tribunal, those tribes
of human nuisances must've been doing even MORE
crop-ravaging. That's why, when Ursus gives his big
speech, he refers to "the lands that were ravaged by
the humans".

Ursus isn't merely "using" the Famine issue to justify
an invasion. If that were so, he would only do so
PUBLICLY, as during his Citizen's Council speech.

But when he talks with Zaius in that steamroom IN
PRIVATE, he reiterates the dire situation. "Either we
invade, or we starve: it's as simple as that."

Zaius: "And as dangerous!"

Ursus: "What is more dangerous than Famine, Doctor?"

Does this dialogue suggest that Ursus doesn't really
believe there's an impending Food Shortage crisis? I
don't think so. It's obvious that he indeed DOES
consider it a crisis, and that his solution is the
ONLY viable solution they have.

We should ask again: Why does Zaius have this fixation
on the idea that Taylor somehow came from "another
jungle beyond the Forbidden Zone"? Isn't it reasonable
to suppose that he HOPES there's this other jungle
over there, because IF there IS another jungle area,
then that means the Apes could conceivably open up
that new area for cultivation. It would save them from
their impending Famine. It would be like oil companies
trying to find new oil-rich areas to open up for
drilling, since fossil fuel reserves are being
depleted (according to some experts, though not all of
course).

Patrick

> OK then, Patrick, tell me... Did all these "wars

amongst the apes" take place in the tiny little world
of the "greenbelts" that you so pathetically cling to?
(You know, somewhere just south of what was once
Newark, NJ!) In fact, it sounds as if you contend it
all took place just around the environs of Ape City.
It's just too silly, Patrick. Too "comic-bookish."

>
> I would much rather imagine that the greenbelts were

once much larger, covering great swaths of the East
coast, and that communities of apes rose and fell and
rose again many times over the long course of two
thousand years. Seems to make more sense to me.

>
> -- Rory

-----------------------------------------------------

*** If Cornelius' map covered the HUGE area you
interpret it to be, then it would've taken Taylor many
days riding along the shoreline to get to the Statue,
and Cornelius himself told Taylor that: "YOU CAN'T
RIDE ALONG THE SHORE AT HIGH TIDE, AND WE HAD NO BOATS
ON OUR LAST EXPEDITION". When the tide came in, Taylor
and Nova would've been drowned with their horse if
they had to trot along that shore for longer than half
a day ("high tide" occurs twice per day).

Besides, the entire Eastern Seaboard of the U.S.A.
would be targeted by the nuclear weapons that would've
been unleashed by the enemies of America during the
war that ENDED human civilization. It wouldn't be just
New York that got nuked, it would be all the major
population centers extending at the least from Boston,
down to Providence, New Haven, New York, Philadelphia,
Baltimore, Washington D.C., Richmond and Norfolk. If
only a FEW of those major cities were nuked, then Man
would've had a better chance of bouncing back from
that devastating war -- with surviving infrastructure
from the non-nuked cities.

And you're forgetting Taylor's THROAT WOUND. After
getting shot in the throat, he begins to BLEED. After
the gorillas haul him into a cage-wagon, they go from
the Hunt area to Ape City, where Taylor is STILL ALIVE
after having "lost a lot of blood" -- enough to
require a TRANSFUSION from Nova. If that wagon had had
to travel as far as your Map-interpretation calls for,
he'd have died of blood loss LONG before they ever got
to Ape City. Like it or not, the distances on
Cornelius' map are NOT as big as your "Chesapeake Bay"
interpretation wishes it to be. Taylor would've had to
have as much blood in his arteries as that elevator at
the Overlook Hotel in "THE SHINING", to lose as much
blood as he would've lost during that wagon-ride to
Ape City!

Trotting along at the rather leisurely pace from Ape
City to the Cave takes them THREE DAYS: "It's a
three-day ride across the desert, and near the place
where you claim you landed from that planet of yours"
Cornelius tells Taylor, at the rendezvous. At the rate
they traveled, it would take WEEKS if not MONTHS to
travel across your Interpretation of the map. They'd
have to be GALLOPING at full speed day and night to
cover the distance you seem to think they covered.

Your ridiculous interpretation puts Ape City in NORTH
CAROLINA, with cities like NORFOLK and RICHMOND (both
in Virginia) within spitting distance, on the "left"
side of the map, the habitable zone where Apes are
allowed to travel. If those cities had been nuked,
then they would be DESERTS with "poisonous" terrain,
just like the Forbidden Zone. If they had NOT been
nuked, then the remnants of those cities would be
there for Apes to trip over -- they wouldn't need
friggin' ARCHAEOLOGISTS to discover traces of a
long-dead civilization!

Re-do your stupid map, Rory, but THIS time don't use a
RELIEF map of the Maryland-to-North Carolina strip of
the East Coast -- use a map that shows the goddamn
CITIES that currently exist there. In order for the
Apes to be CLUELESS about the existence of a
technologically advanced civilization in their
Prehistory, you have to figure out how to destroy
those metropolises without rendering them unlivable
deserts.

Your desire to equate Chesapeake Bay with Dead Lake
just doesn't make any damn sense unless you imagine
all those cities just VANISHING into thin air like the
Mutant illusions.

The more area you claim for Cornelius' map, the more
likely that there would be ARTIFACTS from the 20th
Century there to be found in places on the "left" side
of the map, to the "left" of the dashed line
separating the Inhabitable areas from the Forbidden
Zone on the "right".

One last thing: look at the width of the RIVER that
connects Dead Lake to the Sea (the Ocean, the blue
stuff at the "bottom" of the map). How WIDE is that
river? If the area of that map is as HUGE as you say
it is, then it must be at least a MILE or more wide!
How the f*** did they get across it??? Is there a
BRIDGE spanning that river, built by a gorilla Army
Corps of Engineers? And look at the overhead views of
Dead Lake in the beginning of the film, then compare
the convoluted shoreline seen there with the
mapmaker's depiction. When Taylor, Landon and Dodge
are on one side of the shore, they can see buttes on
the OTHER side of the shore, because the width of Dead
Lake at its furthest is NOT the many miles it would
have to be if it were overlayed with Chesapeake Bay's
size in your map.

The apes are runnin' out of cropland due to human
encroachment from their "jungle" home. The population
of Ape City can only be in the thousands, tops, given
the size of the army Ursus musters -- able-bodied
gorillas from the gorilla-third of the total Ape
population. Ursus' army numbers in the hundreds, at
most. If they have as much area to grow crops in as
you seem to think, then they'd have to have a
population at least around a million or so for there
to be any real threat of Famine. But that ain't what's
portrayed in the films.

I await with anticipation your re-do map, showing all
those American cities' positions overlayed onto
Cornelius' map. All that infrastructure that has to
vanish -- in a non-nuclear way -- so that no ape can
stumble across it while walkin' throughout the green
zones on that map. I can't WAIT.

Patrick

No - Professor Antelle's ship. The one that stayed in
orbit during Ulysse Merou's adventure on Soror.

The 3 man -- with Hector, their chimp mascot -- landed
on Soror in a smaller vehicle, a shuttlecraft. Boulle
called it "une chaloupe" which means "a launch"; the
same kind of boat you'd use to shuttle a landing party
from a big ship that can't get near a beach to that
very beach. Think "KING KONG" (the DeLaurentiis remake
version), where the Petrox Explorer stays a
comfortable distance away from the "shallows" and the
landing party takes the smaller boat through the fog
bank to the shore. That's the kind of boat Boulle was
describing.

The BIG ship that stayed in orbit had three such
smaller vehicles. The 1st one, the one they landed on
Soror in, ended up being smashed by Nova's tribe,
stranding them on this planet. When Cornelius' chimp
pals in the Ape space agency send Ulysse, Nova, and
Baby Sirius up in a rocket, they are able to
rendezvous with the still-orbiting "mothership".

After the interstellar voyage back to Earth, Ulysse
takes his family down in one of the other two
remaining shuttles to Orly Spaceport, where they are
met by a gorilla.

Boulle's novel had a mothership in it. That's where I
got the idea for MY mothership. For alla youse who
don't think it makes any sense, go complain to
Boulle's mortal remains at his grave in France -- cuz
it was HIS IDEA FIRST. I just applied it to the POTA
movies, to make 'em make sense.

Patrick
------------------------------------------

--- TZer0@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 9/2/2006 9:26:29 A.M. Central
> Daylight Time,
> Haristas@... writes:
>
> T, how long's it been since you read the book!
>
>
>
>
> It's been a while.
> Are you referring to Phyllis and Jen's ship?
>
>
>
>

.html.html In a message dated 9/2/06 12:02:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TZer0@... writes:

In a message dated 9/2/2006 9:26:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Haristas@... writes:

T, how long's it been since you read the book!

It's been a while.
Are you referring to Phyllis and Jen's ship?


No, and now you have to go read the book -- I COMMAND YOU!<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 9/2/06 1:32:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

In my own POTA scenario, the MASS of the Moon is still
orbiting the Earth in 3955, but it had been compressed
into a Singularity -- so that it is a Black Hole.

Believe it or not, I'm going to just let this one slide....

just another episode in the wonderful legacy that is Patrick.

-- Rory<.html <.html

.html.html In a message dated 9/2/06 3:55:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:

I await with anticipation your re-do map, showing all
those American cities' positions overlayed onto
Cornelius' map. All that infrastructure that has to
vanish -- in a non-nuclear way -- so that no ape can
stumble across it while walkin' throughout the green
zones on that map. I can't WAIT.

Patrick

I'm not going to waste one-second trying to prove anything to you.  "You're no seeker, you're negative."  Or, to be more accurate, you're a closed mind when it comes to APES.  Everything has been figured out by you in your "mega opus" you say you're still working on, and that's that.  Why should I bother.

Anyway, what's sad is that you're so blind to the ridiculousness of your stuff.

-- Rory

P.S.
Even if Cornelius' map were showing an area as small as you contend, it's still supposed to be someplace around NJ and what a dense human culture lives there now!  It's just as implausible that the apes wouldn't have discovered the ancient artifacts of man's past in their own "backyard" in your "scenario" and just as impossible that they wouldn't have starved to death long before 3978 in your tiny greenbelts.

Face it, whether it's my interpretation of the world of PLANET or yours, Patrick, we're dealing with highly implausible events, but I have a feeling you'd even disagree with that!  Like I say, you have an impossible mind!<.html <.html

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