--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@...> wrote:
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> What's this?!?!?
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 5 July 2007 11:53 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] New file uploaded to PotaDG
>
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the PotaDG
> group.
>
> File : /Miscellaneous/hydromeda4.jpg
> Uploaded by : nlmoxham <neilmoxham@eircom. <mailto:neilmoxham%
40eircom.net>
> net>
> Description :
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
> http://groups.
>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Miscellaneous/hydromeda4.j
pg>
> yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Miscellaneous/hydromeda4.jpg
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
> http://help. <http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files>
> yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> nlmoxham <neilmoxham@eircom. <mailto:neilmoxham%40eircom.net> net>
>

>
> Have y'all seen this page before?
>
> http://worldoflongmire.com/features/apes/apes.html"
>
> Melinda
>

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nlmoxham
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 6:24 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: New file uploaded to PotaDG

It's my first attempt at 'colouring in'. I thought for a while about
doing something with this great drawing. It took me ages but I'm
quite pleased with the result...

.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> -- Looks great Neil, excellent piece of work. I think Patrick was
after
> someone to join this picture together ages ago so he should be
> especially happy that you've done this.
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of nlmoxham
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 6:24 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: New file uploaded to PotaDG
>
>
>
> It's my first attempt at 'colouring in'. I thought for a while
about
> doing something with this great drawing. It took me ages but I'm
> quite pleased with the result...
>
> .
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?
s=97359714/grpId=8605785/grpspId=1705021437/m
> sgId=45223/stime=1183623828/nc1=3858796/nc2=3848607/nc3=3848446>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 4:37 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: POTA Blogs with some nice pics

In a message dated 7/4/2007 5:50:27 PM Central Daylight Time, Haristas@aol. com writes:

Boy, was there a lot of misinformation there, and my photo of two of my posters was at the top of the page.

*** I've not read the page yet, but I have to say how many self professed APES fans fu*k up the most basic of knowledge when they create these pages and things... I can accept someone not knowing who the Director of Photography was or things like that, but so many of these self proclaimed "mega-fans" don't even get the most rudimentary things right... I cannot tell you how many times I've seen the "Damn Dirty Ape" line screwed up, the "God Damn You All To Hell" bit typed out way wrong, and how many times I've seen that PLANET starred "Charleston Heston" and "Roddy Mac Dowell"

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mwhitty
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 5:53 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Re: POTA Blogs with some nice pics

Never seen this picture before though….

 

.

>
> Have y'all seen this page before?
>
> http://worldoflongmire.com/features/apes/apes.html"
>
> Melinda
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "nlmoxham" <neilmoxham@...> wrote:
>
> Or this?
>
> http://www.adam.belsky.com/mrt/T_vs_pota1.htm
>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Melinda G Kettler" <mgkettler@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Have y'all seen this page before?
> >
> > http://worldoflongmire.com/features/apes/apes.html"
> >
> > Melinda
> >
>

> Hey Anthony, is this one of those new cards that you
> mentioned a little
> while ago?
>
>
>
>

>

>
> Neil
>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone want a copy of GOING HOME PART 1 or MONKEY PLANET (as
translated by
> Neil Foster from the Russian comic)?
>
>
>
> Proceeds go to more comics...
>
> Michael
>

> Yeah, I'll take a copy if your printing them up. Any
> copies of Beware
> left, while your at it?
>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty"
> <mwhitty@...> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone want a copy of GOING HOME PART 1 or MONKEY
> PLANET (as
> translated by
> > Neil Foster from the Russian comic)?
> >
> >
> >
> > Proceeds go to more comics...
> >
> > Michael
> >
>
>
>

There’s a few BTB lest and a few of WITHIN too.

And there’s plenty f the BTB Poster.

Michael

---

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of nlmoxham
Sent: Saturday, 7 July 2007 2:40 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: SP - Comics

Yeah, I'll take a copy if your printing them up. Any copies of Beware
left, while your at it?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@... > wrote:
>
> Anyone want a copy of GOING HOME PART 1 or MONKEY PLANET (as
translated by
> Neil Foster from the Russian comic)?
>
>
>
> Proceeds go to more comics...
>
> Michael
>

---

Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mwhitty
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 6:19 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] SP - Comics

 or MONKEY PLANET (as translated by Neil Foster from the Russian comic)?

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mwhitty
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:06 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] SP - Comics

There’s a few BTB lest and a few of WITHIN too.

And there’s plenty f the BTB Poster.

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TZer0@...
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:41 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Rollerball - in the POTA universe

 

Cool poster,

but what's an Oper?

.

> Cool! I want both!
>
> Tim
> --- nlmoxham <neilmoxham@...> wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I'll take a copy if your printing them up.
> Any
> > copies of Beware
> > left, while your at it?
> >
> >
> > --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty"
> > <mwhitty@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone want a copy of GOING HOME PART 1 or
> MONKEY
> > PLANET (as
> > translated by
> > > Neil Foster from the Russian comic)?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Proceeds go to more comics...
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

> Posted by: "Neil Foster" ntfoster@... munkeyman63au
> Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:04 pm ((PDT))
>-- Hope things are okay. I know what floods can be like, I've been
>involved in a couple myself. Stay safe.
>
>Neil

> Posted by: "Tim "apefan"" apefan23@... apefan23
> Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))
>Melinda....I hope you are ok.....can you take things
>of importance ot a scecond floor?
>
>Tim

> Posted by: "Michael Whitty" mwhitty@... mike_oz2002
> Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))
>Good luck Melinda!

>Posted by: "TZer0@..." TZer0@... LordTZer0
>HI Melinda,
>Nice to see more POTA representation in the DFW area.

> Thanks Neil, Tim, and Michael. Once the rain
> stopped on Tuesday, the water
> receded pretty well from the house. I bought sand
> bags on Wed to put in
> front of my back door. We got some sunshine FINALLY
> on Thur, Fri, and Sat,
> so that has certainly helped the situation. The
> ground is just so
> saturated, it needs to dry out. Thanks for your
> emails.
>
> Melinda
>
> > Posted by: "Neil Foster" ntfoster@...
> munkeyman63au
> > Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 4:04 pm ((PDT))
> >-- Hope things are okay. I know what floods can be
> like, I've been
> >involved in a couple myself. Stay safe.
> >
> >Neil
>
> > Posted by: "Tim "apefan"" apefan23@...
> apefan23
> > Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:03 pm ((PDT))
> >Melinda....I hope you are ok.....can you take
> things
> >of importance ot a scecond floor?
> >
> >Tim
>
> > Posted by: "Michael Whitty"
> mwhitty@... mike_oz2002
> > Date: Tue Jul 3, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))
> >Good luck Melinda!
>
>
>

Yer darn tootin', Neil, that I am -- and should be -- especially happy that somebody finally finagled this magnificent Tom Sutton 2-page splashpage together... and, lo and behold, it's in c olor! Sweeeeet! Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!

Wouldn't it be great if Marvel -- or Dark Horse, maybe -- could republish all the Future History Chronicles stories in a special colorized format, the way that Dark Horse has been reissuing Marvel's Conan comic in graphic novel-sized editions? Ah, I can dream, can't I?

Thanks again, Neil -- the other Neil, that is... not the Foster Pussycat Kill Kill, but the other one.

Oh, what the hell, thanks to you, too, Neil Foster -- in advance -- for the next POTA illustrations that you'll eventually grace us with.

Today is a good day, despite the fact that it's hot and humid outside. I realize that the DFW area doesn't need any more rain, but I'd prefer it if the hydro-content of the atmosphere in the Fargo region would just friggin' rain down on the Red River Valley (the Red River of the North, that is). You need gills just to breathe the damn air!

Patrick

-------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of nlmoxham
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 6:24 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: New file uploaded to PotaDG
>
> It's my first attempt at 'colouring in'. I thought for a while about
> doing something with this great drawing. It took me ages but I'm
> quite pleased with the result...

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/4/2007 2:51:40 AM Central Daylight Time,
> patrickmichaeltilton@... writes:
>
>
> That's my take on it. I think the phrase "by my species" speaks volumes.
>
>
>
> *** And that was an extremely long answer to a simple question... Anyway
> though, the line "my species" is referring to apes in general, just as if the apes
> would say "your kind" to Hasslein, etc. they'd be referring to humans...

===================================================

*** Hmmm, I'm not so sure. And, in fact, in other dialogue from ESCAPE, there are other clues to back me up.

After the primitive gorilla kills Milo, Dr. Dixon tries to soothe the two surviving Ape-onauts, saying: "Uh, we mean you no, uh... harm. D-d-do you understand? We will not... hurt you."

ZIRA: "Poor Doctor Milo..."

DIXON: "Doctor!"

ZIRA: "Yes, 'Doctor' -- and you killed him!"

DIXON: "No, I didn't -- uh, uh, he did..." [points at the gorilla] "One of your own kind."

ZIRA: "He's a gorilla!"

---------------------------------------------------------------

Later, just before Zira and Cornelius -- in the Federal Building's anteroom just prior to the first meeting of the Presidential Commission of Inquiry -- are led into the main room with Dixon and Branton, a knock on the door informs them that the Commission is ready for them.

DIXON: "Alright, it's time."

Zira, getting up, reacts to the fact that a chain connects her right wrist-manacle to a similar one on Cornelius' left wrist.

ZIRA: "What do they think we are! Gorillas?!"

------------------------------------------------------------------

During the Commission's questioning, when Cornelius is shocking the human audience with revelations about the society they came from, he says this:

CORNELIUS: "What is 'English'? I speak the language taught to me by my father and mother, who were taught by their fathers and mothers before them. It has been the language of our ancestors for nearly... two thousand years. As to its origins, oh, who can be sure? The gorillas and orangutans of our community believed that God created the Ape in His own image, and that our language--"

Zira stands up and cuts him off.

ZIRA: "Nonsense! Cornelius, as an intellectual, you know damned well the gorillas are a bunch of militaristic nincompoops, and the orangutans a bunch of blinkered, pseudoscientific geese!"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A short bit later, Cornelius is asked about the War he had referred to: "War between whom?"

CORNELIUS "The gorillas and whoever lives... lived... will live..."

ARMY OFFICER: "Who won the war?"

CORNELIUS: "I don't know. Chimpanzees are pacifists... we stayed at home."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When Hasslein gets Zira drunk, and then asks her "Who won your war?"

Zira scowls at the way he had phrased his question.

ZIRA: "It wasn't 'our' war... it was the gorillas' war. Chimpanzees are pashy--... pacifists. We stayed behind. We never saw the enemy."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

During the interrogation by the CIA goons, Zira is asked about the things she told Hasslein while drunk that she hadn't told the Commission while sober, earlier.

ZIRA: "I should have said that chimpanzees had no part in the destruction of Earth... only the gorillas and the orangutans!"

E.2.: "What's the difference? You're all monkeys."

CORNELIUS [standing up, torqued off]: "Please, do not use the word 'monkey'--it is offensive to us!"

Soon after, Hasslein says that this interrogation "is not an interracial hassle, but a search for facts."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, what's the upshot to all this?

In my opinion, when Cornelius and Zira use the word "ape" they do, indeed, use it in reference to all three kinds of Apes : chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans. But they go out of their way to differentiate between those three kinds -- those three different species of Apes -- in order to place all the blame for the future destruction of the planet Earth in the hands of the gorillas (who comprised the Army) and the orangutans (who, for the most part, provided their own support for Ursus' ambitions, probably through their own religious views -- as is indicated by the religious ceremony presided over by the Ape Minister [an orangutan] who calls upon God to bless the Army, etc etc). They want their human interrogators to know that chimpanzees don't deserve to be blamed for the End of the World.

They could have mentioned that there were chimpanzee protestors doing what they could -- which was, however, not much -- to stop the gorilla War Machine. We see those chimps carrying protest-signs at the ground-level area during Ursus' speech to the Citizens' Council in the upper-level Amphitheater. Later, when the Army is about to leave Ape City -- over that causeway/bridge -- they are held up by the group of chimpanzee protestors... the "young people" (as Zaius refers to them) who lay themselves down in front of the gorilla Cavalry, just like that one brave Chinese dude at Tienanmen Square standing in front of that tank.

I didn't see any orangutans -- or, for that matter, gorillas -- in that group of protestors. Did you? Remember what one of those hippie-chimps cried out?

"Gorilla brutality! Gorilla brutality!"

When Cornelius tells Hasslein (et al.) about that "historic day" when Aldo articulated his defiance of a human master, he does not say that it is commemorated by " all apes" -- he says that it is commemorated BY MY SPECIES.

Cornelius is -- as Zira affirms -- a SCIENTIST. An INTELLECTUAL. Well, intellectual scientists have a professional vocabulary. Cornelius himself added to that vocabulary when he advanced his "insidious" theory of Evolution. Cornelius had to have given his theory the NAME of "Evolution": not only did he re-invent the notion of Species evolving from earlier, different Species... he also named that theory with the same name that was adopted by Darwin and the Darwinian movement after him -- Evolution. He added a word to the professional vocabulary of Archaeologists, of Animal Behavioral Scientists, of all Science.

The word "species" -- as a scientist would use it -- means: "a subdivision of a genus considered as a basic biological classification and containing individuals that resemble one another and that may interbreed" [Encarta World English Dictionary, my emphasis].

Individuals that resemble one another. Both Cornelius and Zira go out of their way to point out the differences between the pacifistic Chimpanzees and the militaristic Gorillas (and the blinkered, pseudoscientific Orangutans). In other words, the Chimpanzees of Ape City do not resemble the Gorillas and Orangutans. But chimpanzees do resemble other chimpanzees!

And, the three species of Apes most certainly do not interbreed with each other, either! In Burton's lousy "re-imagining" of POTA they may have gone that route, having an Orangutan male bedding a female Chimpanzee, but that's not how "classic POTA" did things!

When Cornelius says that the historic day of 'Aldo' beginning the "corporate and militant" revolt against Man is commemorated "by my species," he is telling Hasslein -- and us in the audience -- that at least some CHIMPANZEES (and not all apes) look back with pride on that pivotal moment in simian prehistory.

When Dixon tells Zira that a gorilla -- "one of your own kind" -- killed Milo, Zira spits out a rejoinder: "He's a gorilla!" In other words, an ape that is not one of Zira's own kind, as she sees it. And her distinction can only make sense from the standpoint that Chimpanzees and Gorillas -- though both are "anthropoid apes" -- belong to separate species . They may share the same culture, but they do not interbreed. Indeed, in the past there had been institutionalized discrimination against Chimpanzees -- the "Quota System" that Dr. Galen mentions to Zira, a system that had recently been abolished, so that she -- a chimp -- could "make it" in the professional world. A world controlled by one of the three "kinds" of Apes, the Orangutans.

The scientific word SPECIES does not mean what you claim it means -- nor can it. To use it in a general way (that is, to cover all Apes -- Chimps, Orangs, and Gorillas) is to rob it of its very meaning. The word denotes non-generality. The common word SPECIFIC is a cousin-word to Species which also denotes this meaning of non-generality.

All chimpanzees may be Apes, but not all Apes are chimpanzees. They want Hasslein to know that it wasn't an "Ape war of aggression" that led to the destruction of the Earth -- it was "the Gorillas' war". The chimpanzees aren't to be blamed for it.

And, not all Apes deserved the credit for vocalizing their opposition to the "master" known as Man: it was a CHIMPANZEE who began the rebellion against Man. And those tables got turned on "an historic day" -- on one particular day -- when an Ape, a CHIMPANZEE, spoke the word "No!" to a human.

At least, that's how Cornelius relates it, some nineteen hundred and sixty four years (of "Self-Time") after-the-fact... which is also about 18 years before-the-fact. We learn -- in CONQUEST , which was plotted out well before the final script of ESCAPE was written -- that the actual linguistic articulation was not the word "No!"... rather, it was "LOUSY HUMAN BASTARDS!"

The "N-word" ["no"] later comes to have a more specific meaning. It was the "negative imperative" used by Man -- in conjunction with electro-torture -- to control the conditioned Apes. And... when Caesar's ranting at the end of CONQUEST was getting out-of-hand, Lisa uttered her first word -- "N-n-no!" -- as a way of protesting his extremism.

Later on, King Caesar instituted what is called "the First Law" which makes it a crime for a Man to say "No" to an Ape. When Cornelius tells Hasslein about the use of the word "No" it is with the special knowledge of the prehistory told in those Secret Scrolls . Hasslein won't and can't know the full import of that word "No" as it relates to the relations between Apes and Humans in the future... but Cornelius knows it . And, when he talks to Hasslein about that little-known prehistory, he does it gloatingly, pridefully.

Because he knows that his society's ancestors owed their freedom and survival to a CHIMPANZEE king. To Caesar . To the "savior" who he knows is gestating in Zira's womb at the very moment he tells Hasslein about Man's downfall.

"... by my species..."

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@...> wrote:
>
> I just finished watching Escape with a freind who had
> never seen it...(she figured out the swith when Zira
> is in the cage with Heloise....)
>
> Two things that I would love to see screen grabs
> of....
>
> The court artisits drawings of Zira and
> Cornelius....wonder where those props wound up?!!?
>
> and near the end when Hasslein is talking about
> pollution and the population explosion....when he
> stops walking forward there seems to be a rather
> violent picture on the wall next to him.....
>
> Could anyone freeze these for me??
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>

> I have the originals of the court drawings.
>
> Want me to scan them?
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\""
> <apefan23@...> wrote:
> >
> > I just finished watching Escape with a freind who
> had
> > never seen it...(she figured out the swith when
> Zira
> > is in the cage with Heloise....)
> >
> > Two things that I would love to see screen grabs
> > of....
> >
> > The court artisits drawings of Zira and
> > Cornelius....wonder where those props wound up?!!?
> >
> > and near the end when Hasslein is talking about
> > pollution and the population explosion....when he
> > stops walking forward there seems to be a rather
> > violent picture on the wall next to him.....
> >
> > Could anyone freeze these for me??
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@...> wrote:

>
> "…the phrase "by my species" speaks volumes."
>
> It speaks volumes, but you're not listening. Nobody said that
> Cornelius and Zira didn't differentiate themselves from gorillas and
> orangutans, only that they referred to all apes as a single species.
> It's an error, but an intentional mistake made because repeatedly
> calling attention to the fact that they're three separate species
> would've weakened the allegory, and because there's no scientific
> term analogous to "species" that separates humans from apes.

Well, I disagree. I do not accept your interpretation, that Cornelius was referring to all apes as a single species. As a scientist, he would've known better -- especially insofar as he was a maverick scientist who had developed a "brilliant hypothesis" regarding the origin of the (three) ape species. He wasn't merely an archaeologist; Cornelius was the ape-equivalent of an anthropologist (what would probably have been termed a pithecologist by a simian who studies the origins of the Apes).

I don't see how Cornelius' use of the phrase "by my species" prevents any weakening of the allegory, as you see it. Could you elaborate?

And your last quibble -- there being no scientific term analogous to "species" that separates humans from apes -- doesn't make sense to me. The way I see it, Cornelius specifically used the phrase "by my species" to address the presumed fact that at least some chimpanzees -- and not orangutans and gorillas -- were the ones who commemorated that glorious day from their forgotten prehistory.

The day in question -- in my interpretation -- is the Night of the Fires , the events which transpired on the (24-hour) day in which Caesar 1) "died"... 2) was "resurrected"... and 3) led all the ape-slaves [and not just the chimps] in Breck's city to their victory, their freedom from the yoke of human bondage.

At first, all of the apes in that initial population willingly and enthusiastically supported Caesar, and -- in the years to come -- celebrated the anniversary of their freedom, the same way that Americans celebrate the Fourth of July ("Independence Day").

But later... years later, after Caesar's heir is dead and the gorillas are sneered at for the fact that it was a gorilla who murdered an innocent ape child -- making "apes" morally no better than humans, as MacDonald implies... sometime after the moment when the Guns are put back into the Armory, there had to have been a split -- so that, some 652 years later, the Orangutan "Lawgiver" is preaching to a community comprised of Chimpanzees, Orangutans, Humans... but no Gorillas . In my scenario, the Gorillas seceded en masse at some point; in particular, at the 50th anniversary of the defeat of Kolp's invasion force, in 2068, Caesar reveals to the citizens of Ape City that he deemed it necessary to destroy all the Guns in the Armory, to prevent that future war which would otherwise lead to the Earth's destruction, when that "gorillas' war" (as he'd heard his mother Zira's recorded voice describe it) was waged, invading the territory neighboring theirs.

The gorillas of Ape City, in 2068, having been burdened with the Cain-like stigma of murder due to Aldo's act, react indignantly to Caesar's claim that the world will end one day because of the gorillas. They see themselves as scapegoats and get sick and tired of it. And, now that Caesar has effectively rendered everyone in Ape City vulnerable to any outside attack, the Gorillas secede. From 2068 until sometime in the 28th Century, the Gorillas become a traveling band of barbarians, living lives in the wildernesses of North America that are barely above the level of "savage" aborigines.

Eventually, though, they re-invent the Gun and invade the territory they once shared with Caesar's people -- and re-subjugate the Humans, imposing their will upon all Apes. The chimpanzees become second-class citizens, with the orangutans faring somewhat better -- since the Gorillas had been joined by some malcontented Orangutans who share their hatred of Man... one particular Ape (named Doswa) having gone so far as to rewrite history, erasing Man's once-glorious past and pretending that Apes have always ruled the world: he writes the Sacred Scrolls and has all other "scripture" deemed Heresy.

But the descendants of the female chimpanzee whom Caesar had impregnated at the Breeding Annex -- the House of Proteus -- never forget the fact that Apes were once united under their progenitor, Caesar. Though he died without an heir -- not having acknowledged Proteus as his own natural son until just before his death, and declaring his Dynasty to have ended with the death of his son, Prince Cornelius -- Caesar did leave behind a Bloodline whose members take pride in. They become, effectively, a secret society, initiating important members of the Family at their coming-of-age. Though most chimpanzees remain ignorant of the truth about Ape prehistory -- the Ape-onauts, Ape Slavery, the Savior chimp-king Caesar, etc -- there remain some chimpanzees who know the truth about their own family's past.

Cornelius had been ignorant of this throughout most of his life and, in my scenario, he only becomes aware of it just prior to the frenetic moments before the Earth is destroyed. Milo shows up in Ape City and hurriedly convinces Cornelius and Zira to join him on a trip to the Forbidden Zone (by boat, downriver to the Sea and along the shoreline past the Statue of Liberty to the landing site of the 3rd ANSA ship) and, by this time, Cornelius had acquired access to those "secret scrolls"... the "history scrolls kept hidden from the masses".

It is then that he becomes aware of that written record of Prehistory. He learns that there had always been a minority of the chimpanzee population who were privy to a secret that was deemed too dangerous to attempt to expose for fear of retribution from the ruling caste of Orangutans and Gorillas. Part of that written record involves the events once known as the Night of the Fires... and it is that event which is commemorated (in secret) by those few chimpanzees who know the secret.

Cornelius hadn't been a member of their Lodge, so he had had no idea throughout most of his life that such a commemoration had ever taken place. It was a behind-closed-doors affair. Like all other apes, Cornelius had been raised to believe that God had created the Ape in His own image, had set him apart from the beasts of the jungle, and made him the lord of the planet. He isn't disillusioned of this false history until the time when he and Zira are accompanying Milo out to the landing site of the spaceship, when he becomes acquainted for the first time with the written record of that secret history. It is then that he becomes aware of the fact that Man didn't just "fall"... he was taken down; Man had lost his pets to a plague... replaced them with Apes... enslaved those Apes... and then had the tables turned when a chimpanzee named Caesar led the Apes to their freedom -- to be followed, some 15 years later, by Man unleashing "the vilest war in human history" which flattened his cities.

Cornelius, proud of the fact that a chimpanzee had been the Savior of all Apes... and knowing (or believing) that Zira's unborn child was that very ape in question ... says with pride that the "historic day" is still commemorated "by my species" -- by chimpanzees , those few chimps who were initiated into the heretical secret society devoted to keeping that ancient story from being completely forgotten.

But his agenda, in this testimony to Hasslein, is not merely to revel in the greatness of the once-honored chimpanzee king Caesar; he also wishes to change history -- "history" which hasn't happened yet from the perspective of somebody alive in 1973 -- by preventing the killing of Caesar's heir by an ape named Aldo . By falsely pinning the badge of glory on an ape named Aldo, Cornelius is putting at risk every ape who may be named Aldo in the future , be it a chimpanzee or a gorilla (or an orangutan, for that matter).

>
> The Planet of the Apes films were meant to reflect human society at
> the time. Gorillas and orangutans represented the military and the
> government/religious bureaucracy (which is why they didn't show
> females of either species on film; women don't normally fit those
> stereotypes). They were not meant to represent different races or
> species.

I agree with most of this, except for the last part. You talk of "human society at the time" (i.e. in the late 1960's to early 1970's)... and, though maybe you don't agree with his study of POTA, Eric Greene wrote a whole book pointing out the Race and Ethnicity factors at play in the storylines of the POTA films. Not just differentiating Apes from Mankind, but differentiating the 3 types of Apes from each other. The whole "Quota System" stuff doesn't make sense unless we interpret the 3 types of Apes as ethnically differentiated, since that Quota System was a type of institutionalized discrimination. The chimps were once discriminated against, as Dr. Galen implies, and are only now able to "make it" in the professional world, access to which they had once been denied (save for that probably small "quota").

> Cornelius and Zira quickly corrected anyone who compared  them to non-chimps because they hated the gorillas' aggressive  warmongering and the orangutans' stranglehold on progress. They were  scientists and pacifists, not racial or species supremacists. What  would be the point of a movie about species prejudice when there's  only one species running the planet and buying movie tickets?

>
> Anthony

In PLANET, Zira and Cornelius are depicted as maverick scientists, willing -- to a point -- to put forward new hypotheses that are at odds with "established science". Cornelius with his theory of Evolution... Zira with her controversial behavioral studies, and the belief that Man can be domesticated -- though the Lawgiver had supposedly proven that Man could not be tamed.

In BENEATH, with Ursus getting his way militarily, Cornelius and Zira are then shown to be pacifists (the Pacifist vs. Militarist situation was not part of the story of PLANET). And, in BENEATH, we see that Zira has become somewhat of a supremacist. She goes out of her way to tell Cornelius -- who fears that she'll be overheard -- that "If I had any proper sense of scientific purpose, Cornelius, I shouldn't be cutting up the healthy heads of humans. I should be dissecting the diseased brains of Gorillas to find out what went wrong."

"Gorillas are cruel because they're stupid: all bone and little brain."

Zira became an anti-gorilla bigot sometime between the events of PLANET and BENEATH, and she remained one throughout the events of ESCAPE. When the General tells his Aide that the Ape-onauts will have company -- "there's a gorilla in the next cage" -- Zira slams her dinnerware down in anger. Later, she tells Cornelius, "This place stinks of gorilla!" etc etc.

You ask: "What  would be the point of a movie about species prejudice when there's  only one species running the planet and buying movie tickets?"

My answer is, that Racism is the bigoted belief -- rooted in bad science and religious dogma, much of the time -- that fellow members of the same species are somehow not full members of that species. We call it Dehumanization . There are racist screeds all over the place that resort to referring to "other races" as if they are descended from Apes... or are the result of the ungodly interbreeding of Fallen Angels and Humans. There are White Power so-called "Aryan" types who say this of Jews and Blacks... there are Black Muslims who infer that the White Race was engendered by Fallen Angels raping "pure" Black women...

Yet the scientists who study Mankind on the genetic level -- and, remember, the Human Genome has been mapped -- have shown that there really is no such thing as "Race"! The genetic differences between, say, a Chinese person living in Shang-hai and an Australian Bushman or a Norwegian living in Oslo -- those differences don't amount to squat. The genetic diversity is not all that great, when compared with two people in the same "race". Chihuahuas and Great Danes are two breeds of Dogs and they're able to interbreed successfully (on the genetic level), making them both members of the same species -- Dog -- yet their differences morphologically are vastly greater than the meager differences between various human groups, be it a matter of skin-color or lip-size or nose-shape, whathaveyou.

Zira's anti-gorilla comments in BENEATH and ESCAPE underline her pro-chimpanzee bias... her view that chimpanzees are better than the gorillas and orangutans. She had become a kind of Racist -- or, to coin a word, a Speciesist. By the end of ESCAPE , she has also deemed Mankind worthy of her disdain, having only met 3 humans whom she trusts, out of the hundreds she has met. The way she voices it, those 3 individuals are exceptions to the rule . She speaks of Man in a blanket kind of way: "Is that what Man wanted oil for? To kill fish?!"

The POTA films have a hell of a lot to say regarding Ethnocentrism, Racism, Bias, etc. We have to be especially observant of the racist views expressed by characters who are designed to be the ones we in the audience sympathize with. It is superficial to look on Hasslein or Kolp or Breck or Ursus as a "villain" and to automatically assume that Zira and Armando and Caesar and CONQUEST 's MacDonald are "heroes". The problem of Racism has no easy answer, and the POTA films don't offer any easy solutions. History is a bloody struggle, often fought over matters of Race (and Religion), and the fictional stories of the POTA saga depict that struggle in a new guise. It ain't just US-and-THEM... there's the divisions among the "us" group that make for the shades-of-grey.

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, atragon1@... wrote:

>

That's a good point. Why doesn't Cornelius specify that "a gorilla named Aldo" was to be the first ape to speak? If he knows -- due to having read the Secret Scrolls -- that the heir of Caesar, his own grandson, is to be murdered by a gorilla named Aldo, then why not specify that ape as a gorilla?

The way I see it, Cornelius is simultaneously telling the Truth and Lying about the Future. He knows that Apes will be pets in Human homes for a period of two years... and truthfully says as much while lying about the time duration, saying it was a period of two centuries. Zira follows his lead by saying that after three more centuries -- which would really be only three more years -- the Apes would turn-the-tables on Man.

Cornelius tells the truth that there would be one historic day, commemorated by chimpanzees ("by my species"), where the story of the first Ape to articulate would transpire. But he's really talking about the Night of the Fires and the glorified memory of the chimpanzee King Caesar... and he lies to Hasslein that the ape hero was named Aldo. He implies that Aldo was a chimpanzee when he says that the historic day is commemorated "by my species"... because he has a long-term goal of attempting to save his grandson from murder.

He's in a quandary. If he gives the credit to a gorilla named Aldo, then he can't very well claim that it is commemorated by his species, by chimpanzees . Thus, he merely says that it was "an ape named Aldo"... which put all apes with that name on a potential list of targets by paranoid humans worried about an imminent Ape Revolt.

I agree that Cornelius is being "dangerously ambiguous" here. And that leads to your next question:

> Also, wouldn't Cornelius be "just as bad" as Hasslein - or Zaius for that

> matter -- if he willfully tried to change the future for his own ends?

YES!!! Cornelius isn't morally perfect. He's an individual in an extraordinary dilemma. He and Zira are like Daniel in the Lion's Den... being interrogated by Hasslein about the truth of their world and its history. He has probably been warned by Dixon that Hasslein and the other interrogators have the means to elicit truthful testimony, using some sort of truth serum. Before Hasslein resorts to that, Cornelius has to walk a fine line... telling Hasslein as much of the truth that he can get away with without endangering Zira and their baby, whom he knows will be the One... the Savior/King/Hero whom all Apes (initially) will follow.

During this interrogation, Cornelius hasn't yet met Armando -- that religiously-driven champion of the concept of Destiny, the unalterable Will of God. When he and Zira are being questioned by Hasslein, Cornelius has no compunction against the use of Deception for the purpose of giving his own unborn son a chance to survive and to fulfill his role in what will eventually become "prehistory". He chuckles when Zira claims that the word "Dissec-Dissec-Dissec-Dissec-" was her having the hiccups. If they were being wholly truthful, then they would've admitted that Zira had dissected humans as part of her job as an animal psychologist and comparative anatomist.

Yes, Cornelius is "just as bad" -- or "good" -- as those others who tried/try/will-try to change the Future. Cornelius has personally witnessed the destruction of the Earth, from orbit, and he knows that the horrid event happened because Ape society was in the hands of the militaristic Gorillas and hyper-conservative Orangutans... not the intellectual Chimpanzees.

If only the Chimpanzees could be the rulers of Ape society throughout their entire history, and not just at its beginning, when King Caesar ruled the united species of Chimpanzees, Orangutans, Gorillas, and re-enfranchised Humans. If only! But, as the Secret Scrolls had fully documented, that chimp-run Ape society was cut short when Caesar's only heir -- born to Lisa, that is -- had been murdered.

If he could only change that! Then maybe... just maybe... the world might not be destroyed in the year 3955. In my scenario, this is why Cornelius says what he says to Hasslein and the other interrogators. Chimps weren't responsible for the destruction of the Earth... and if Caesar's Dynasty can be saved from Aldo's act of murder, then the Earth need not suffer destruction after all.

If saving Caesar's dynasty might possibly prevent Doomsday, then isn't that worth the lives of any ape who may be given the name "Aldo" in the near future? Caiaphas was quoted as saying something similar in regards to the fate of Jesus...

> I don't believe that the "secret scrolls" Cornelius has access to were the

> same detailed scrolls the Lawgiver is reading from in BATTLE. The "secret
> scrolls" were only fragments of those original documents. Cornelius knew about
> the plague, some sketchy history of early ape enslavement and heavily diluted
> "facts" about the timeline and events of CONQUEST. Cornelius did not know
> where the apeonauts were when they landed - Dr. Milo was the one who formulated
> the hypothesis. I don't believe that Cornelius would keep this information to
> himself if he possessed such knowledge. Also, Cornelius is happily surprised
> when baby Milo is pronounced "a boy." If he already knew about Caesar, this
> would be no surprise.
>
> Bill

The final image, Bill, which we are shown in the last movie, is a statue of Caesar. He is shown holding a scroll. The Lawgiver, reading from a scroll, tells his audience that "this is his story, in those far-off days..."

His story. Caesar's story. Caesar's own story, his autobiography . Who wrote that story down, if not Caesar himself? Why else would he be portrayed in sculpture holding a scroll?

Later (according to my scenario), that history scroll -- as well as many others, no doubt -- would be relegated to the bonfire, when the human-hating Lawgiver who penned the Sacred Scrolls deemed all other scriptures to be false and heretical. Aside from the copies kept in the private library of the House of Zaius, and the copies maintained in secret by the privately-heretical House of Proteus and their secret society, no other copies of those history scrolls exist to counter the false version of history promulgated by the last of the Lawgivers.

Cornelius tells Hasslein that the events surrounding "Aldo" are fully documented in the Secret Scrolls... but how can he know that, presuming it is true? There is no such thing as "full documentation". How can Cornelius know that no relevant information had been left out of the version he calls "the Secret Scrolls"? He can't know!

In my scenario, Cornelius didn't know -- in advance -- that he, Zira, and Milo would be going through a Timewarp into their distant Past, when they dressed themselves up in those spacesuits and blasted off. Even when they went through the Timewarp -- and could see the EARTH-TIME chronometer clicking backwards -- even then he didn't realize what was happening. For all he knew, the shockwave that hit the ship had caused the clock to malfunction.

He had (recently) read -- for the first time -- this hidden, secret prehistory stuff. After reading it, he probably relegated it to mere myth and fiction. I mean, come on... a chimpanzee "savior" sent by God to save the world, whose parents "had descended on Earth from Earth's own future"...? Cornelius, reading that stuff in 3955 on the boatride from Ape City to the seaboard landing site of that ANSA ship, would shake his head at the utter implausibility of it. It's fiction... mere myth. It can't be true. It must be a heavily embellished story, perhaps based on a kernel of historical fact, but that's it.

But... after going through the Timewarp... after Milo explains what he says he knows has happened... knowing that Zira is pregnant and will give birth in the very year written of in those Secret Scrolls... Cornelius then knows that there was far more truth in those improbable "myths" than he, as a responsible historian, had been prepared to accept at first glance.

When he first read about the brutal murder of Caesar's parents, he had no idea that it was referring to Zira and himself. But later... later, he knows that he and Zira will meet that fate.

You mention that Cornelius is "happily surprised" when his baby is pronounced a boy. What does this tell him? It tells him that his son is, most probably, the very chimp who will be known as Caesar -- rather than some other future son he and Zira might have. By the time Caesar is born, Cornelius is resigned to the fact that the Future is becoming Ape Prehistory. He knows he and Zira will die soon... but he also knows that their child will survive and be the glory of all apedom.

In my scenario, the information given in those Secret Scrolls includes chronological information... specific periods-of-time between certain key events. Apes taken as pets... Apes enslaved after two years of being pets... Apes being led to victory over their enslaving Human Masters after three more years...

And, this event is in Caesar's 18th year. And, 15 years after that, the vilest war in Man's history will flatten the cities.

All Cornelius has to do is do-the-math. He knows that the Plague will strike soon -- he probably knows it will happen in ten years' time -- and that Apes will be taken in as pets 3 years later (in 1986)... and enslaved 2 years after that (in 1988)... and that his 18-year-old son, Caesar, will free the Ape slaves 3 years after that, in 1991. And, 15 years later, in 2006... Global Thermonuclear War.

And, 27 years after the Ape Revolt of 1991 (i.e . in 2018), Caesar's son will be murdered by a gorilla named Aldo. Unless he can prevent that by putting a target on the forehead of every ape named Aldo, by giving "Aldo" the credit for initiating the Ape Rebellion.

And Cornelius doesn't keep all the information to himself. Not only does he tell a self-serving version of the prehistory from the Secret Scrolls to Hasslein (etc), he tells Armando -- in private, before he and Zira leave his circus -- about the Nuke War that will wipe out Man's civilization in 33 years' time... with the chimpanzee king Caesar being the one to rule over the survivors (including the humans).

Armando, then, knowing that there would be a Nuke War in 2006, told this to Caesar. We know this because Caesar -- in his rant at the end of CONQUEST -- goes out of his way to "prophesy" about the time when Man finally and self-destructively turns his weapons against his own kind...

"The day of the writing in the sky, when your cities lie buried under radioactive rubble , and the sea has become a Dead Sea, and the Land a wasteland, out of which I shall lead my people from their captivity!"

Caesar doesn't know this about the Future due to any "divine inspiration"... he knows what he knows because Armando taught him. And Armando knew about the upcoming Nuclear War only because he believes that the "history" Cornelius knew must be Destiny... the unalterable Will of God.

Patrick

> As a scientist, he would've known better -- especially insofar as
> he was a maverick scientist who had developed a "brilliant
> hypothesis" regarding the origin of the (three) ape species. He
> wasn't merely an archaeologist; Cornelius was the ape-equivalent of
> an anthropologist (what would probably have been termed a
> pithecologist by a simian who studies the origins of the Apes).
>

> You talk of "human society at the time" (i.e. in the late 1960's to
> early 1970's)... and, though maybe you don't agree with his study
> of POTA, Eric Greene wrote a whole book pointing out the Race and
> Ethnicity factors at play in the storylines of the POTA films. Not
> just differentiating Apes from Mankind, but differentiating the 3
> types of Apes from each other. The whole "Quota System" stuff
> doesn't make sense unless we interpret the 3 types of Apes as
> ethnically differentiated, since that Quota System was a type of
> institutionalized discrimination. The chimps were once
> discriminated against, as Dr. Galen implies, and are only now able
> to "make it" in the professional world, access to which they had
> once been denied (save for that probably small "quota").
>

> Zira became an anti-gorilla bigot sometime between the events of
> PLANET and BENEATH, and she remained one throughout the events of
> ESCAPE.
>

> Zira's anti-gorilla comments in BENEATH and ESCAPE underline her
> pro-chimpanzee bias... her view that chimpanzees are better than
> the gorillas and orangutans. She had become a kind of Racist -- or,
> to coin a word, a Speciesist. By the end of ESCAPE, she has also
> deemed Mankind worthy of her disdain, having only met 3 humans whom
> she trusts, out of the hundreds she has met. The way she voices it,
> those 3 individuals are exceptions to the rule. She speaks of Man
> in a blanket kind of way: "Is that what Man wanted oil for? To kill
> fish?!"
>

> The POTA films have a hell of a lot to say regarding Ethnocentrism,
> Racism, Bias, etc. We have to be especially observant of the racist
> views expressed by characters who are designed to be the ones we in
> the audience sympathize with. It is superficial to look on Hasslein
> or Kolp or Breck or Ursus as a "villain" and to automatically
> assume that Zira and Armando and Caesar and CONQUEST's MacDonald
> are "heroes". The problem of Racism has no easy answer, and the
> POTA films don't offer any easy solutions. History is a bloody
> struggle, often fought over matters of Race (and Religion), and the
> fictional stories of the POTA saga depict that struggle in a new
> guise. It ain't just US-and-THEM... there's the divisions among the
> "us" group that make for the shades-of-grey.
>

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Neil Foster
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 8:02 AM
To: PotaDG
Subject: [PotaDG] New York Dolls video clip

Here's something a little different.

Yesterday I picked up a DVD with various rock songs on it. One of the bonuses is a promo video clip for a song called 'Dance Like A Monkey' by the New York Dolls. Near the middle of the clip is a little 'POTA sequence'.

I took some screen captures and here are a few of them: 

  I'll upload the whole lot of screen grabs to a folder later for anyone who is interested.

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melinda G Kettler
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:51 AM
To: friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com; PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Statue Of Liberty Redone

I've never seen this picture manipulation before. Have y'all seen it?
Looks like apes on the beach sand.

.

> Here's something a little different.
> Yesterday I picked up a DVD with various rock songs
> on it. One of the
> bonuses is a promo video clip for a song called
> 'Dance Like A Monkey' by
> the New York Dolls. Near the middle of the clip is a
> little 'POTA
> sequence'.
> I took some screen captures and here are a few of
> them:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I'll upload the whole lot of screen grabs to a
> folder later for anyone
> who is interested.
>
> Neil
>
>

>
> Hello,
>
> This email message is a notification to let you know
> that
> a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the
> PotaDG
> group.
>
> File : /Dance Like A Monkey/POTA sequence
> 01.jpg
> Uploaded by : munkeyman63au <ntfoster@...>
>
> Description :
>
> You can access this file at the URL:
>

>
>
> To learn more about file sharing for your group,
> please visit:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files
>
> Regards,
>
> munkeyman63au <ntfoster@...>
>
>
>
>
>

> -- Bit strange, that one!
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Melinda G Kettler
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:51 AM
> To: friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com;
> PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Statue Of Liberty Redone
>
>
>
> I've never seen this picture manipulation before.
> Have y'all seen it?
> Looks like apes on the beach sand.
>
> .
>
>

>

>
>
>
>

> Here's another I haven't seen before:
>
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem
>

> %3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250140276700&rd=1&rd=1>
>

> 1
>
> There seems to have been quite a few rare unseen
> Return photos and
> pictures up for auction lately, I wonder if there is
> any more 'new' old
> stuff around?
>
> Neil
>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/11/2007 8:05:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
>
>
> > That's wild that all these Return photos are turning
> > up!
>
> *** Which makes me wonder how many of them really are legit...
Think about
> it, how many animated series had/have a slew of "stills" to promote
them? Not
> many I'm sure, and I'd guess even less than that in
1975....<BR><BR><BR>
> **************************************<BR> Get a sneak peak of the
all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour</HTML>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@...> wrote:
The words weren't spoken by a chimpanzee scientist, they were spoken by an actor who had memorized them from a script written by a sloppy screenwriter.

Ah, another Dehn-bashing. How quaint.

There has been government-sanctioned discrimination against so-called heretics throughout history by political leaders who were also religious leaders. The quota system in Planet of the Apes is based on faith, not race. Its purpose was the repression of apes who questioned the traditional beliefs of their society. Presenting this group of heretics as a single ape species is just a convenient way to differentiate the group in the minds of the audience.

I disagree with the above line, highlighted in red, and what follows. The chimpanzees in PLANET were not discriminated against based on faith ; there is only one "faith" -- one religious belief system -- in the Ape society, and the only scientist-chimps we know of who have even dared to put forth a scientific theory or two challenging this are Cornelius and Zira. There's no evidence that Dr. Galen has "questioned the traditional beliefs of their society" as you infer. Yet it is he -- rather than Zira -- who is still impeded by the glass ceiling.

Zaius has allowed Zira to "make it" -- to be more successful professionally -- because her experimental brain surgery studies promise to benefit Ape society, using human test animals for anatomical research. Not to support an Evolution theory with its comparative anatomical studies, but to benefit Apes who may need to be subjected to brain surgery themselves.

We don't really know what specialty Dr. Galen may hope to pursue -- that he is denied an opportunity to pursue by the Powers-That-Be [i.e. Zaius]. He, working in Zira's lab, complains that he's "little more than a vet" there. And his presence there is used against him when the Orangutans at the Tribunal charge Zira and "a corrupt surgeon named Galen" with performing experiments on Taylor, "tampering with his brain and throat tissues" to produce "a speaking monster".

But for you to claim that all chimpanzees somehow shared a heretical view is just not supported by the evidence on-screen; Zira and Cornelius are the only Apes who are "exposed" as heretics -- the Orangutans don't even mention Dr. Galen in their Indictment. It isn't heresy to protest Ursus' warmongering -- one could even claim that the chimpanzee protestors were being truer to their society's religion, since the Lawgiver himself had established the taboo against venturing into the Forbidden Zone. Jeezus, that's why it's called that! The Forbidden Zone! The Lawgiver had the authority to forbid all apes from going there -- and, as Zaius claimed, "Only an apostate would flee to the Forbidden Zone!"

When Eric Greene talks about the Quota System , he does so comparing the chimpanzees to the Jews who, in America, were subjected to "restrictive immigration, education, and employment quotas directed against" them (Greene, 31-2). Is this a "faith"-based discrimination, or a "race"-based one? Probably a bit of both, but mostly one of Race. Jews are looked upon (by those who are bigoted against them) as being predominantly a different "race" -- which is why Hitler sought to exterminate them. Germans with even a small percentage of Jewish blood were deemed "tainted" by it. Even though the Nazis despised Judaism as a religion, it was the race of Jews that they specifically hated, and sought to destroy.

Not that Jews were the only group ever to suffer from restrictive quotas in America, mind you. Greene's point, though, was that the chimpanzee intellectuals in PLANET who had (in the past) suffered from such a Quota System were comparable to the Jewish intellectuals in the West in general, and in America in specific.

Greene's theories are ludicrous. Having them printed doesn't automatically give them credibility.

I don't agree with everything Greene had to say, but he was (in his book) far more insightful about the allegorical meanings in the POTA books and films than you give him credit for. My biggest beef with Greene is in regard to his inappropriate liner notes for the POTA TV music cd -- it should've been about the TV show and how the music added to it; instead, he gave an overview of the entire POTA franchise's history and, wrongfully I think, went out of his way to speak ill of the TV show. The guys who did the liner notes for the LOGAN'S RUN tv show soundtrack cd did a far better job.

Regardless, Greene has made a contribution to POTA by having written a serious study of its political and racial themes and -- even though he may not always be on-the-mark in his insights -- his theories are not ludicrous.

> > Zira became an anti-gorilla bigot sometime between the events of
> > PLANET and BENEATH, and she remained one throughout the events of
> > ESCAPE.

> Planet of the Apes was an anti-war film. The gorillas in Planet were
> hunters and police officers and menial labourers. Zira didn't hate
> Julius, nor did she hate any of the other gorillas before they began
> preparations for war in Beneath.

> Of course Zira was pro-chimp. As representatives of a stereotype,
> they ALL believed the same things she believed and they were all
> good. Until the TV series, there were no exceptions to that rule.

You need to watch PLANET again -- at least the scene where Taylor's getting pelted with those rocks and pieces of fruit. It ain't just the gorillas and orangutans who are treating him badly there -- the chimpanzees , too, are in-the-thick of it. Zira is unlike that crowd of chimpanzees, orangutans, and gorillas -- she wouldn't have thrown rocks at Taylor, or at any other human, in my opinion. When Julius warns her about getting too close to the caged humans in her lab, she insists that "They're perfectly tame" -- and he responds, "They're all tame, until they take a chunk out of you!"

There are only so many characters that we get to meet in PLANET and BENEATH, and to assume that all chimpanzees fit into one neat stereotype-box is, I think, unwarranted. Lucius speaks of "money-mad grown-ups" -- and I wonder if he's being dismissive of all Ape grown-ups or only those who are in the Circus business (and who might that be? Chimps? Orangutans? Gorillas? we never get to know that!)

> Zira's prejudices against the gorillas and the orangutans are
> unchallenged because they're a given. Her belief that free-thinkers
> are better than religious zealots and warmongers is the whole point
> of the movie. That's why the administrative bureaucrats are all
> orangutans and the scientists are all chimps and the soldiers are all
> gorillas. They're MEANT to represent stereotypes, without variance.
> If they'd wanted to make a movie addressing racial prejudice, they
> would've mixed them up some, and they would've proven Zira wrong.
>
> Anthony

The fact that Zira, in BENEATH, makes blanket bigoted statements against all gorillas -- even though she, having known and worked with Julius, should know better than to be so judgmental of all gorillas -- shows that Zira did become a bigot. When she's making her 'amusing' comments about gorillas to Cornelius -- ["... the diseased brains of gorillas" ... "Gorillas are cruel because they're stupid " ... "... wet-nurse their babies on the milk of chimpanzees, the milk of kindness... at least our child, when it's born, won't be breast-fed on bile !"] -- she never once admits that there might be an exception to the rule, such as Julius. Or does she, then and there, consider Julius no different than Ursus and those foot-stomping gorillas at the Citizens' Council meeting?

If all the gorillas are stereotypes, then why is Julius portrayed the way he is? He isn't portrayed as cruel or stupid. He isn't excessively violent against Zira's test-animals. He's a working-class citizen; all the soldiers may be gorillas, but not all gorillas are soldiers -- and Julius is the prime example.

Another example is the Dead Gorilla being mourned in that Funeral. Sure, it may be hearsay, but what does the Ape Minister say of him? "He was a font of simian kindness. The dear departed once said to me, 'I never met an Ape I didn't like..."

Does that sound like your average, stereotypical gorilla? Does such a description sound like it could equally apply to Ursus ? Cornelius had to warn Zira that she was in danger for her "bad behavior" at the Citizens' Council meeting -- that crossing Ursus was dangerous. Until Zaius intervened, Ursus was prepared to have his soldiers shoot the chimpanzee war-protestors ["Wait! We don't want martyrs, do we?"]. The gorilla whose funeral Taylor interrupts sure doesn't sound anything like the type of person Ursus was. Nobody in their right mind would call Ursus a "font of simian kindness"!

Patrick

 

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@...> wrote:
>
> To do the artwork, colour it and put in on a transparency is a big job Mike.
> It's not out of the question, but it us certainly not worth the effort
> either!
>
>
>
 The art does have a look of Doug Wildey about it, the sometimes comic artist, who of course worked on the show.

The orangutan / Zaius inparticular.

In the back of one of his western graphic novels " Rio at Bay " there's a sketch book, art section with bits of his animation work including art work for a ditched Doc Savage show . So it would appear he kept some of his own work.

Doesn't mean this is genuine or not but if it has any connection with him, he died a few years ago, it could go some ways to explain the sudden rush of art from the show. 

Best, Graham.

> The chimpanzees in PLANET were not discriminated against based on
> faith; there is only one "faith" -- one religious belief system --
> in the Ape society…
>

> But for you to claim that all chimpanzees somehow shared a
> heretical view is just not supported by the evidence on-screen;
> Zira and Cornelius are the only Apes who are "exposed" as heretics
> -- the Orangutans don't even mention Dr. Galen in their Indictment.
>

> When Eric Greene talks about the Quota System, he does so comparing
> the chimpanzees to the Jews who, in America, were subjected to
> "restrictive immigration, education, and employment quotas directed
> against" them (Greene, 31-2). Is this a "faith"-based
> discrimination, or a "race"-based one? Probably a bit of both, but
> mostly one of Race. Jews are looked upon (by those who are bigoted
> against them) as being predominantly a different "race" -- which is
> why Hitler sought to exterminate them. Germans with even a small
> percentage of Jewish blood were deemed "tainted" by it. Even though
> the Nazis despised Judaism as a religion, it was the race of Jews
> that they specifically hated, and sought to destroy.
>

> If all the gorillas are stereotypes, then why is Julius portrayed
> the way he is? He isn't portrayed as cruel or stupid. He isn't
> excessively violent against Zira's test-animals. He's a working-
> class citizen; all the soldiers may be gorillas, but not all
> gorillas are soldiers -- and Julius is the prime example.
>

----- Original Message -----

From: mwhitty

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 11:04 PM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] OT: Would Burton do a good job NOW?

I’d like to see someone get it who really is a fan of the original.  Burton has no Megos if you ask me!

Michael

---

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Anthony B. McElveen
Sent: Sunday, 15 July 2007 2:14 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] OT: Would Burton do a good job NOW?

I'd rather see them give a rookie director who respects the source material a shot at it than see them give Burton another chance to screw it up.

On Jul 14, 2007, at 10:26 pm, Jeff K. wrote:

I was thinking today that Tim Burton is at the top of his game right now. Since POTA he had an artistic success with "Big Fish", and did solid work with "Willy Wonka" and "Corpse Bride". Now he's really taking a chance with the musical "Sweeney Todd" for this Christmas. Of course, that's just my opinion but many others seem to agree. He's still Burton and not everyone digs his movies but he seemed to learn some lessons from POTA.

I'm writing about Fox for "Ape Chronicles" and I saw Fox's latest underwritten tentpole, "Fantastic Four 2" for research (just so I can say it sucks with conviction). POTA is at Fox's mercy and they seem to be the problem if you look at their recent big movies ("I, Robot", "Eragon", etc. etc.). I've concluded Fox is the problem, not Burton . They need a strong director and I think Burton could stand up to them today, six years later. And he's got some box office spunk these days. But Fox chewed him up and spit him out, so I don't think he'd return. IF they do another one they'll probably get another yes man director and continue their undistinguished streak. (Why Burton ? Because no other worthy director is going to touch it. Either Burton fixes it or it goes down to a junior director).

The 7/10/07 "Hollywood Reporter" did an update on superhero movies and said another "Fantastic Four" movie is in question because the current one isn't doing well. They're more interested in a "Silver Surfer" movie, as well as movies for "Wolverine" (next year) and "Magneto". But they're running out of franchises. There's not going to be another "Eragon", even though it's a book series. The producer said there's no "X-Men 4" in the works. And Fox won't be getting any more Marvel properties, which aren't available (Marvel's keeping them for itself). Fox is also remaking "Day the Earth Stood Still" for next year. But could it be it'll be time to look at POTA again? Enough time has passed that people don't even talk about the remake anymore. Culturally, the original continues to be referenced. Let's go, Fox! Jeff