> Tim, I apologize for the delay in answering your
> question. I am very far
> behind in reading all my messages right now.
> Unfortunately, I cannot find
> the location of where I found this photo. I had
> signed up for a google
> alert for Planet of the Apes. One day, I got a link
> and went to it, and
> there was that picture. I saved the picture, and
> then deleted the email.
> Now the email is gone from my trash. The trash
> empties itself every couple
> of days. I've searched and searched to try to find
> the picture again, but I
> have been unsuccessful. Next time, I'll remember to
> post the source of what
> I find. If I do happen to come across it again,
> I'll let you know!
>
> Melinda
>
> >4b. Re: Statue Of Liberty Redone
> > Posted by: "Tim "apefan"" apefan23@...
> apefan23
> > Date: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:01 pm ((PDT))
> >
> >where did you find this Melinda?
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> > I've never seen this picture manipulation
> before.
> > > Have y'all seen it?
> > > Looks like apes on the beach sand.
> > >
>
><http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=8605785/grpspId=1705021437/m
> > >
>
>sgId=45278/stime=1184118668/nc1=3858794/nc2=3848614/nc3=3848429>
>
>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@...> wrote:

On Jul 12, 2007, at 3:16 pm, patrickmichaeltilton wrote:
Ah, another Dehn-bashing. How quaint.

Sarcastically calling my assertion quaint does nothing to lessen its truth or its validity.

Okay, then, let me elaborate.

Calling Dehn "sloppy" -- in regards to this particular point (the line "by my species") -- is as baseless as saying that JFK's political views concerning Cuba and Russia didn't amount to squat merely because he had screwed Marilyn Monroe, or that his dad had 'bought' the election for him. There are people who voted for Dubya because they believe that he -- despite a past history of drug use and drunk-driving -- was more "virtuous" than his predecessor (think: Monica and the cigar...), and therefore his policies must be better. Which they aren't.

I don't deny that Dehn made mistakes -- the most egregious being the change in date from "3978" to "3955". It still boggles my mind that he could've gotten that "wrong" since -- even if he had not gone through the film of PLANET frame-by-frame, and had restricted himself to the PLANET script, the date "3955" is not found in that script! The 3978/3955 change is, perhaps, the greatest mystery of all in the annals of PotaDom.

So, sure, Dehn made mistakes. Some mistakes. But to blanketly assert that all of the information Dehn put into his sequel scripts must be interpreted as "just another mistake made by a screenwriter who makes mistakes" is just hogwash. And that, my friend, is exactly what I think of your dismissive attitude towards this particular bit of evidence -- the line Cornelius speaks regarding the commemoration of that "historic day" not by all apes but "by my species". You want to believe that Cornelius must be using a phrase that specifies only chimpanzees to mean chimpanzees and orangutans and gorillas, and when I point out that a scientist who specializes in the science of simian ancestry (enough to have devised an ingenious, if heretical, theory about it) uses a term which has a specific meaning that proves my point, you dismiss it as just another "mistake" from a screenwriter who, admittedly, did make certain "mistakes" concerning the source film (PLANET).

With all due respect, Anthony, I'm not impressed by your casual dismissal of this bit of evidence. I don't see any "truth" or "validity" in it. All I see is more Dehn-bashing, in an attempt to sweep an inconvenient fact under the rug. For an evolutionary archaeologist to use a particular bit of scientific jargon that has a particular meaning is important, I think, even if you do not.

It is in regards to this very testimony that the Chairman of the Presidential Commission states: "The male's attitude is that of a deeply interested and well-disposed academician who studied the alleged future downfall of the Human Race with the objectivity of a good historian."

In other words, in the view of this Chairman, Cornelius is a professional scientist (and a good one, at that), and his professional actions (in our Future yet in his personal past) are seen as commendable, as opposed to the "atrocities" committed (in the Future) by Zira. And we should take this Chairman's opinion at face value, I think, because he has already revealed that -- in addition to being the Chairman of the Presidential Commission -- he is, himself a Zoologist. He's a scientist who knows what the hell he's talking about. When Dixon informs the Commission that the two surviving Ape-onauts have the power of speech, this Chairman says, "Dr. Dixon, as a zoologist , I know and respect your work. But if you think you're going to turn a Presidential Commission into a ventriloquist's act, I have to inform you--"

The Chairman isn't just some political flunky, like the non-experts who got cushy jobs under President Dubya (like the former director of FEMA who did "a heckuva job" in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina). The Chairman got appointed to this Presidential Commission because he has some expertise in the field of Zoology and, thus, could better evaluate any evidence put forth to the Commission regarding the Ape-onauts. His attempts to interpret Zira's first spoken words -- "Zira" and "A parrot?!" -- reveal his expertise: "Mechanical mimicry. Unique in an ape, vocally, without a doubt, but..." (etc). He isn't just speaking as a layman; he's a zoologist who knows that apes as a rule do not have the ability to manifest vocal mechanical mimicry -- which is why he admits that Zira's supposed use of vocal mechanical mimicry is "unique in an ape... without a doubt".

In addition to being works of Satire and Allegory, the POTA films are works of Science Fiction . When a work of Science Fiction presents language and concepts that are particular to some specific branch of Science -- be it Zoology or Astrophysics or whatever -- it behooves us to understand that language, that concept. And to take it seriously.

To me, Cornelius' use of the phrase "by my species" means what it f***ing says: "by CHIMPANZEES" -- and not by all apes. To you, it means "all apes" because you dismiss Dehn as just a mistake-maker who must not have understood what he typed when he wrote that screenplay in the first place.

I think that Dehn -- when he wrote the script for ESCAPE -- had a pretty damned good idea just exactly what he would be doing in the next POTA film, CONQUEST. He wrote BENEATH without any notion that his services would be required yet again -- since the entire planet gets blown up. But when he was told, in effect, "APES LIVE! SEQUEL REQUIRED!", he had to devise a way to tell a third POTA story... and THIS time he wouldn't end it with an unsequelizable ending -- he would set-the-stage for the 4th POTA story.

That means that every single detail he put into ESCAPE regarding the Future downfall of Man and the rise of the Apes was put in in anticipation of his next story, CONQUEST, which included the major character Caesar, whose infancy story he's just finished telling in ESCAPE.

All the info Cornelius and Zira give to Hasslein in that interrogation must be viewed through the lens of the story that Dehn himself anticipated writing -- a story he had undoubtedly already plotted out in advance in anticipation of there being yet a 4th POTA film. The discrepancies between the Future that Hasslein is led to believe will happen and what actually does happen (in CONQUEST ) is due entirely to Dehn's design. Dehn intended for Cornelius and Zira to say the things they said to Hasslein, regardless of whether or not their information would turn out to be exactly the way things would turn out. They provide Hasslein with some accurate information and some inaccurate disinformation -- all for the sake of protecting their unborn son -- whose story (as an adult) Dehn had already planned out for the next film. That's why it didn't take 3 years to crank out yet another POTA sequel: they already had the next story plotted out. The two stories (ESCAPE and CONQUEST) were almost like the two sequels to BACK TO THE FUTURE, which were plotted/written/filmed together, just like the two MATRIX films. The only difference was that Fox first waited to see if ESCAPE made its money back, and then they went ahead and made CONQUEST; yet for that film they didn't need to fret over what story to tell because Dehn already had their story... he had set it all up by the end of ESCAPE.

But, hell, if you want to bash Dehn, go right on ahead. For my money, despite his "mistakes" he was a brilliant storyteller whose sequels are worthy of inclusion in the POTA saga.

> > I disagree with the above line, highlighted in red, and what
> > follows. The chimpanzees in PLANET were not discriminated against
> > based on faith; there is only one "faith" -- one religious belief
> > system -- in the Ape society, and the only scientist-chimps we know
> > of who have even dared to put forth a scientific theory or two
> > challenging this are Cornelius and Zira. There's no evidence that
> > Dr. Galen has "questioned the traditional beliefs of their society"
> > as you infer. Yet it is he -- rather than Zira -- who is still
> > impeded by the glass ceiling.
> >
> The orangutans had already judged Dr. Galen to be corrupt because
> they knew he was trying to play the system to get ahead and would've
> agreed with anything they said. We don't know what his area of
> research would've been if he'd succeeded, but the orangutans'
> willingness to sacrifice him to get to Zira and Cornelius meant that
> they probably suspected him of having heretical ambitions. They
> couldn't "expose" him as a heretic without proof, but they could
> eliminate him in other ways.

Dr. Galen was not a heretic. When he and Zira were alone in that operating room (after he sent out the chimp nurse to find a Probe), giving Taylor a blood-transfusion from Nova, he complains to Zira, "I'm little more than a vet in this laboratory. You promised to speak to Dr. Zaius about me."

Zira: "I did. But you know how he looks down his nose at chimpanzees."

In other words, Dr. Galen felt it was safe to talk candidly to Dr. Zira regarding his seeking of better professional opportunity. If it were safe enough to chat sotto voce regarding his hopes of better professional success -- in the face of controversial institutionalized discriminatory practices by the Orangutans in charge -- then it would also be safe enough for Galen to share with Zira his heretical views, if he had any.

Yet what does he say in regards to the humans in his operating room? Heretical views? No!

"This beast has lost a lot of blood" ... "These animals are dirty, doctor; they stink, and they carry communicable diseases. Why aren't they cleaned up before they're brought here?" ... "They're still dirty. And their bite is septic: there, look at that!"

Dr. Galen's views regarding humans doesn't seem to have even one iota of heresy attached to them. His job is to assist Zira in her work: "The foundations of scientific brain surgery are being laid right here -- in studies of cerebral function in these animals."

We don't know what Dr. Galen would prefer to be doing professionally, but it can safely be said that he feels like a secondary helper of Zira in her work, and not the primary mover of his own scientific work.

The prosecutor, Honorius, seeks to implicate Dr. Galen because the Orangutans who rule over Ape City have a severe problem: How do they explain the presence of a Talking Human to a citizenry who heard him speak? They have little to no choice but to attempt to explain Taylor away as a "speaking monster" cooked up in the lab like a simian Frankenstein monster, whose "brain and throat tissues" had been tampered with. Since Zira had a surgeon on her staff who qualified as a veterinary surgeon (among other things), then for their false charges against Zira to stick they had no choice but to claim that Dr. Galen, too, was in on it with her. They couldn't very well accuse Zira of creating a "speaking monster" under Dr. Galen's very nose, oblivious to her shenanigans! If Zira were guilty of such a diabolical perversion of Science, then Dr. Galen had to have been aware of it... which is why they had to imply that he, too, was part of her evil plan.

But they -- Zaius and Honorius, and whoever else was in on this Tribunal's false charge -- knew that Zira was innocent and that Dr. Galen was especially innocent. They know that Taylor was able to speak before he had received his throat wound, because they already knew that his fellow astronaut Landon could speak. That's why Landon was subjected to the prefrontal lobotomy!

It is Zaius who is the closet heretic! Taylor accuses him -- in private -- of this: "You're talking heresy, Doctor!" And Zaius replies, "Of course!"

Zaius does what he does even though he knows it makes him a hypocrite. He thinks he's saving the world by keeping the Truth buried and unknown to the masses. He has deluded himself into thinking that the Apes are living "in Innocence"; in reality, Zaius lives with the guilt that he has twisted the facts of history to keep the populace ignorant... and he isn't above falsely implicating those he knows are innocent. If Dr. Galen has to be painted as a fellow plotter of Zira to produce a speaking monster via tampering with his brain and throat tissues... so be it. If the Cave has to be blown up, and Zira and Cornelius put on trial for Heresy... so be it. It's all for "the greater Good" in his mind.

But there ain't one fact, one detail in the movie on-screen, which proves that Dr. Galen himself ever had any "heretical" views. If anything, he's a willing member of the Status Quo, since he had asked Zira to speak to Dr. Zaius on his behalf. He wants to "play the game" and get in Dr. Zaius' good graces, so that he can achieve better professional success. He wants to be the top in his own field, rather than a subordinate under Zira in her field.

> > When Eric Greene talks about the Quota System, he does so comparing
> > the chimpanzees to the Jews who, in America, were subjected to
> > "restrictive immigration, education, and employment quotas directed
> > against" them (Greene, 31-2). Is this a "faith"-based
> > discrimination, or a "race"-based one? Probably a bit of both, but
> > mostly one of Race. Jews are looked upon (by those who are bigoted
> > against them) as being predominantly a different "race" -- which is
> > why Hitler sought to exterminate them. Germans with even a small
> > percentage of Jewish blood were deemed "tainted" by it. Even though
> > the Nazis despised Judaism as a religion, it was the race of Jews
> > that they specifically hated, and sought to destroy.
> >
> The attempts by Hitler and other bigots to define Jews as a separate
> race in order to differentiate them from non-Jews are irrelevant.
> Jews were discriminated against because Judaism and its traditions
> made them "outsiders" and convenient scapegoats for the economic
> difficulties in pre-war Germany.

The Germans were encouraged, under Hitler and Nazism, to believe that they were an Aryan MASTER RACE. In BATTLE, Aldo encourages the gorillas he plots with around that campfire to see gorillas as a "master race" -- as being better than not only the Humans but also the Orangutans and Chimpanzees.

And you're missing the point regarding the Quota System which Dr. Galen mentions (and which Eric Greene speaks of): it has nothing to do with the "economic difficulties in pre-war Germany" -- it was about the discrimination against Jews by America . There were limits on how many Jews were allowed to emigrate to America when the Germans were beginning their discriminatory practices against Jews in Germany. More Jews would've been saved from the Death Camps if they could've been allowed into America as immigrant refugees... but a Quota System prevented more than a "quota" from making it into the country. Considering the antisemitic views of many -- perhaps most -- Americans at the time, it's no wonder that many Jewish refugees were turned away.

The Quota System in PLANET was the Orangutans' way of discriminating against Chimpanzees in a way that was similar to the institutionalized discrimination against Jews by the Status Quo in the United States. That discrimination was not an overt persecution like that of Nazi Germany against the race of Jews (slaughtered in Death Camps as part of a Final Solution to "the Jewish Problem"), but, rather, a covert way of keeping the disliked minority in-its-place.

It's like the Gays-in-the-military issue today. Under President Dubya, there are qualified Gays who have been forced out of the military even though some of them have badly-needed expertise as Arabic translators. But, as Jon Stewart has said on "THE DAILY SHOW", the only thing worse -- from the anti-gay neocon view -- than another Al-Qaeda attack on America would be a gay hero preventing it!

Gays are allowed in the military under the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy: they can be in the military as long as they don't declare themselves to be Gay, or get caught participating in any type of gay sex. But if they go "out of the closet" then the military kicks them out of the Armed Forces. In this case, the "quota" of self-professed gays in the military is effectively ZERO. You can bet your sweet ass that if the U.S. military had access to the Authenticator , then they would force all members of the Armed Forces to answer the question: "Are you now, or have you ever been, a homosexual?"... and if the Authenticator proves that they are (or had been), they would be given a dishonorable discharge.

> > Not that Jews were the only group ever to suffer from restrictive
> > quotas in America, mind you. Greene's point, though, was that the
> > chimpanzee intellectuals in PLANET who had (in the past) suffered
> > from such a Quota System were comparable to the Jewish
> > intellectuals in the West in general, and in America in specific.
> >
> If you assert that the quotas were racial, why do you specifically
> mention the intellectuals?

The Nazis hated Jews because of their RACE -- they equated the Jews to vermin worthy of extermination. As in Zyklon-B. Death Camps. Ovens. The "Final Solution".

America, however, established quotas to discriminate against Jews (including Jewish intellectuals) -- yet did not attempt to do to them what the Nazis were doing. America didn't seek to commit genocide against the Jews; they "merely" sought to restrict (with quotas) the numbers of Jewish refugees fleeing Europe for America.

The reason that many Jewish intellectuals were not allowed into America was due, in part, to the fact that one particular intellectual viewpoint was deemed Un-American: COMMUNISM . Despite the necessity of being Allies with the Soviets (who, of course, were Communist Socialists), the United States did not espouse Communist Socialism. The enemy (Russia) of our enemy (Nazi Germany) was our temporary friend, and after World War Two we ceased to treat Russia as a friend (they, of course, treating us equally as an enemy, Communist ideology calling for the eventual overthrow of all Capitalist societies). All this "Quota System" stuff got put into PLANET in the first place because Michael Wilson had something to say about this tendency of America to punish "wrong political thinking" as when the HUAC guys caused Hollywood to institute a Blacklist. It wasn't a crime to be a Communist in America -- hell, there's a Communist Party in America, after all -- but that didn't seem to matter when McCarthy was running ramshod over the Constitution during the Eisenhower years. You could say that the Anti-Commie sentiment that brought about the Blacklist was as much an Anti-Intellectual (i.e. Anti-Semitic) movement.

I'm not saying that to be Jewish (in America or in Europe) meant the same thing as being a Communist ... but that was the perception by a fair percentage of the Conservative class in America. Communism, as they saw it, was a political philosophy embraced by Jewish intellectuals. Although the ENCARTA dictionary entry lists Karl Marx as a "German philosopher", in reality Marx was a Jew living in Germany (a German by nationality, not by "race")... which is why Hitler, in his Mein Kampf , consistently refers to "the Jew Karl Marx" and insinuates that Marxists intend for the bourgeoisie to be ruled by Jews after Marxist-Leninist Communism overthrows the Status Quo. Hitler's ambitions were to prevent such a Jewish political conspiracy, as he saw it. A Jew wrote Das Kapital and co-wrote The Communist Manifesto , Hitler thought, as part of an evil Jewish plot to rule the world, first by imposing a Communist Revolution in every part of the world and then placing Jews in the top positions of government. A world ruled by Jews. That's the essence of the forged document called "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion ", which Hitler believed was true, and which is promulgated even today in anti-Zionist countries dominated by Islam.

Sadly, the Fringe-Right in America still believes this crap. Mel Gibson's drunken tirade last year evidences his own belief in the supposed evil role of Jews in fostering all the wars in the world. Recent attempts by Ann Coulter and her ilk to whitewash the McCarthy Era -- to portray him as a misunderstood hero -- prove that this political extremism isn't gone. It's part-and-parcel of today's Neocon political establishment. Only, for the most part they aren't so overt about it.

> > Greene's theories are ludicrous. Having them printed doesn't
> > automatically give them credibility.
> >
> > I don't agree with everything Greene had to say, but he was (in his
> > book) far more insightful about the allegorical meanings in the
> > POTA books and films than you give him credit for.
> >
> His wild speculations and his misreading of the seemingly obvious led
> him to conclusions that were totally off the mark, as the filmmakers
> themselves have said.

Gimme a "for instance". He was included as part of the documentary "BEHIND THE POTA ", along with most of the still-living filmmakers, who could've countered his assertions then-and-there... and didn't . Oh, Zanuck claims that they weren't making a political film, but he's contradicted by Mort Abrahams, who did say that they were making a political film. I applaud Zanuck for greenlighting the original PLANET , but he was rather clueless in regards to the ulterior motivations of the screenwriters and the producers who knew what was being included -- ever so covertly -- in those scripts. Zanuck thought they were making an exciting adventure film with a fair number of shocks -- especially the surprise ending, a "Rosebud"-moment... and they were , but all to serve a somewhat leftist political agenda, which he didn't seem to have the eyes to see or the ears to hear.

> > Regardless, Greene has made a contribution to POTA by having
> > written a serious study of its political and racial themes and --
> > even though he may not always be on-the-mark in his insights -- his
> > theories are not ludicrous.

> That's just your opinion, and you've obviously formed it by jumping
> to the same erroneous conclusions as Greene.

An ad hominem attack? C'mon! In the portion you quote above, I admit that Greene "may not always be on-the-mark in his insights" -- in other words, I don't agree with everything he has to say. I don't agree with all of his interpretations. I don't "jump to the same erroneous conclusions" you think he does. But much of what Greene had to say is not ludicrous because he has the evidence to back it up. Is Greene making an erroneous conclusion when he states that Ursus' line -- which was also used in the PLANET script by the Hunt Leader -- that "The only good human is a dead human " is "adapted from U.S. General Sheridan's genocidal curse that "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" (Greene 63)? Is he just making that up? Is he a fool for making the obvious connection between an anti-Indian slur and Ursus' dialogue? How is that an "erroneous conclusion"?

It isn't! Greene's 100% right about that connection, and you know it! Your disagreement with some of Greene's conclusions has somehow gotten you to dismiss all of what he has to say, throwing out the proverbial baby with the bathwater.

> > You need to watch PLANET again -- at least the scene where Taylor's
> > getting pelted with those rocks and pieces of fruit. It ain't just
> > the gorillas and orangutans who are treating him badly there -- the
> > chimpanzees, too, are in-the-thick of it. Zira is unlike that crowd
> > of chimpanzees, orangutans, and gorillas -- she wouldn't have
> > thrown rocks at Taylor, or at any other human, in my opinion. When
> > Julius warns her about getting too close to the caged humans in her
> > lab, she insists that "They're perfectly tame" -- and he responds,
> > "They're all tame, until they take a chunk out of you!"
> >
> What does the crowd's reaction to Taylor have to do with anything? To
> the apes, Taylor was an animal, and a potentially dangerous one at
> that. If he'd been stoned to death by chimpanzees, they still
> would've been "good," meaning free-thinking intellectuals.

If all chimpanzees are heretics (like Zira and Cornelius), then we should expect them to behave towards the escaped Taylor differently than the other apes in that crowd throwing rocks and fruit at Taylor. My point is that Zira and Cornelius were different not only from the Orangutans and Gorillas, but also from most Chimpanzees . They -- and they alone -- were willing to go out-on-a-limb during the Tribunal and afterwards, when they sprung Taylor and Nova from their cage (with the help of Zira's nephew, Lucius). I think that most chimpanzees would've balked at going that far, even to help one of their own. Lucius was game for it because he was a young anti-establishment agitator who didn't trust the older generation in general. He did trust his own aunt, Zira, who undoubtedly was older than him, yet was persecuted by the "older generation" (i.e. by the Establishment, by Zaius and his ilk) in control of Ape Society.

Unlike you, I don't see "all chimpanzees" as the same as each other. You seem to see them all as a bunch of closet heretics. Including Dr. Galen. But I don't. I think that the chimpanzees tend to all be more "liberal" and willing to question Orthodoxy... but there are those specific chimpanzees who are braver than most, brilliant in their own fields of study. Zira. Cornelius. Milo. What distinguishes them from not only the conservative Orangutans but also from other chimpanzees is their willingness to promote a theory which is deemed heretical.

One of Zira's heretical beliefs -- even before she's become amazed at the antics of her new human study animal "Bright Eyes" -- is that the captive humans to whom she offers sugar cubes are "perfectly tame". Zaius later tells Taylor (et al.) at the Cave that "the Lawgiver proved that Man could not be tamed." Zira's stated belief, in Julius' presence, is out-right against the official doctrines of the Lawgiver. I think that she has that opinion because she -- unlike most chimpanzees -- actually works with human beings in her laboratory. Most chimpanzees don't share her beliefs about wild human animals, which is why they pick up rocks and throw them at Taylor when he escapes.

> > There are only so many characters that we get to meet in PLANET and
> > BENEATH, and to assume that all chimpanzees fit into one neat
> > stereotype-box is, I think, unwarranted. Lucius speaks of "money-
> > mad grown-ups" -- and I wonder if he's being dismissive of all Ape
> > grown-ups or only those who are in the Circus business (and who
> > might that be? Chimps? Orangutans? Gorillas? we never get to know
> > that!)

> These "money-mad grownups" aren't seen, so they're irrelevant.

They're spoken of, though, which makes them real and, thus, relevant. Lucius' line proves that the Ape society makes use of Money, and that there is such a thing as a "money-mad " Ape who would try to literally "capitalize" on the existence of a Talking Human by putting him in a Circus and charging a fee to other Apes who want to see him.

This single line by Lucius enriches our view of Ape Society by a mere casual mention. They don't need to show a money-mad Ape barging into Julius' workplace and attempting to requisition Taylor for his circus, and all that. All they need is for Lucius to refer to such an Ape, and we know that such an Ape must exist in this satirically-designed society. If you can't see the relevance of that, then I feel for you.

> > The fact that Zira, in BENEATH, makes blanket bigoted statements
> > against all gorillas -- even though she, having known and worked
> > with Julius, should know better than to be so judgmental of all
> > gorillas -- shows that Zira did become a bigot. When she's making
> > her 'amusing' comments about gorillas to Cornelius -- ["... the
> > diseased brains of gorillas" ... "Gorillas are cruel because
> > they're stupid" ... "... wet-nurse their babies on the milk of
> > chimpanzees, the milk of kindness... at least our child, when it's
> > born, won't be breast-fed on bile!"] -- she never once admits that
> > there might be an exception to the rule, such as Julius. Or does
> > she, then and there, consider Julius no different than Ursus and
> > those foot-stomping gorillas at the Citizens' Council meeting?
> >
> It was just another example of Dehn's sloppiness. In Planet, the
> gorillas didn't represent a single group. It was an anti-war film,
> and war was the exclusive domain of Man. Dehn screwed that up by
> creating a gorilla army in Beneath. He robbed the apes of their
> tenuous moral superiority.

Prior to the "incident" involving the 11 missing scouts -- and the lone surviving scout -- which justified Ursus' mobilization of a gorilla militia, there was no need for a gorilla army in recent memory. But you're wrong if you claim that there never had been an Army in Apedom prior to that incident. During the funeral service for the unnamed gorilla (which Taylor crashes) in PLANET, the Ape Minister refers to the dead gorilla as a "model for us all... a gorilla to remember... Hunter... WARRIOR ... Defender of the Faith... Beloved Husband, Generous Master... he was a font of simian kindness."

Whoever that gorilla was, he had been -- among other things -- a "warrior". A warrior implies a war, does it not? And a war implies some sort of Army to wage that war. There is a backstory to PLANET that is only hinted at here and there in the dialogue given in that first movie. In the lifetime of that now-deceased gorilla there had been some sort of armed conflict involving the Ape Army, in which that gorilla had served. Dehn didn't create an Ape Army where none had ever existed -- he merely invented a situation whereby that Army was re-mobilized to deal with a new crisis.

What was the nature of the armed conflict which this dead gorilla had taken part in? We aren't given much to go on. It is open for speculation, therefore. But I suppose that Serling and Wilson, too, had merely made a "mistake" by claiming that this gorilla had been a "warrior". They, too, like Dehn, must've just screwed up their own original movie, just as Dehn "screwed up" in the sequels! They must've screwed up yet again when they had Julius refer to one of the two gorillas sent to have him prep "Number Four" for surgery as... "What's up, LIEUTENANT ?" Oh, I suppose that that gorilla lieutenant could've been a lieutenant in the Ape police force, perhaps a 'simicide' detective named Columbo... oh, wait. Apes don't murder other apes, so they wouldn't need a 'simicide' detective. But, wait again... it was Dehn who introduced the "Ape-Shall-Never-Kill-Ape" law, so maybe the Apes in PLANET did commit murder often enough to require a detective lieutenant who investigates murders... and who also serves as an errand boy for Zaius. Hmmm...

Patrick

 

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@...> wrote:
>
> Do you think Zira is like this because she's "nice" or because she is curious... about Taylor's intelligence?
>
> I don't think Taylor would have had any favouritism from her had he been any
> other human - and Zira affirms this in ESCAPE. Humans are all animals to
> her..but one she finds particularly intelligent and she wants to study him
> more. Do you think Nova was saved because Zira LIKES her or Taylor for that
> matter?
>
> Unlike ARI she is not an animal rights activist - just a scientist who has
> found an intelligent human she wants to study.
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> patrickmichaeltilton
> Sent: Friday, 13 July 2007 6:16 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Aldo
>
> You need to watch PLANET again -- at least the scene where Taylor's getting
> pelted with those rocks and pieces of fruit. It ain't just the gorillas and
> orangutans who are treating him badly there -- the chimpanzees, too, are
> in-the-thick of it. Zira is unlike that crowd of chimpanzees, orangutans,
> and gorillas -- she wouldn't have thrown rocks at Taylor, or at any other
> human, in my opinion. When Julius warns her about getting too close to the
> caged humans in her lab, she insists that "They're perfectly tame" -- and he
> responds, "They're all tame, until they take a chunk out of you!"
>

I think that Zira was interested in the idea of Human Intelligence long before she ever first laid eyes on "Bright Eyes". Her scientific work -- endorsed by Zaius -- is in the field of scientific brain surgery , using Humans as test animals in order to perfect surgical techniques which are to benefit Apes, the same way we use lab animals to further surgical procedures designed to benefit human beings.

But, as Zaius points out, Zira's behavioral studies are something else entirely. Zira is cautioned against trying to assert the idea that Humans are more than mere animals; she has Bright Eyes do his "trick" in order to show Zaius that there's at least one human who doesn't fit the view of Orthodoxy regarding Man. Zaius has to grudgingly admit that "he has a definite gift for mimicry" -- the same thing the Chairman of the Presidential Commission admits about Zira, if you'll remember, before Cornelius' answer astounds everybody.

But Zaius goes out of his way to addend his admission by making blanket statements about Man as a race (or species). "Man is a nuisance... he eats up his food supply in the forests, then migrates to our green belts and ravages our crops... the sooner he is exterminated, the better!" In other words, Ignore this individual human with the gift for mimicry, Zira... however different he may seem to you, for he's a Man and all humans are vermin worthy of being exterminated!

Zira, well before she had met Taylor, had been "guilty" of performing "behavioral studies" on humans in her laboratory. Zaius' dialogue with her is suggestive of there having been an on-going debate between the two regarding Human Beings and their capacity for behaviors that go against the Established view.

When Zira had first heard that one of the injured humans captured in the hunt had been wearing "strange clothes" she rushes to her laboratory and asks, "Which one was wearing the strange clothes?" Wearing strange clothes is a behavior, is it not? One suggestive of a difference from the ordinary behaviors associated with run-of-the-mill humans. It is to find support for her views vis-a-vis her behavioral studies of humans in general that she rushes to study this new human, the one wearing the strange clothes.

Later, when Taylor and Nova are in the outside Cage, Zira sees Nova pointing at her arm where the needle used during the Blood Transfusion had gone in... and she gets super-duper excited about it: " LOOK! SHE REMEMBERS!"

The ability to remember, Zira is showing, is unusual in humans -- at least according to the Orthodox view of Man-as-an-animal. For Nova to exhibit this ability -- and to draw attention to it by pointing with her finger at the needle-hole in her arm and at Taylor's arm -- gives further evidence that Zira's studies of human behavior are not worthless, heretical though they may be.

Of course Zira is interested in Taylor's behavior, suggestive of a different cognitive ability from what ordinary humans are deemed to have by Orthodox Science endorsed by the Academy, by the Chief Minister of Science, Zaius. Her interest in Taylor precedes ever seeing him, just by knowing that one of the captured humans had been caught wearing "strange clothes"... having been injured and brought to her laboratory for emergency veterinary surgery (the blood transfusion). Wearing that "old blanket as clothing" is merely the first thing about him that makes him a person-of-interest, worthy of her study. Most apes -- even most other chimpanzees -- didn't deem that non-ordinary behavior worth considering. So what if he's wearing an old blanket? What does that prove? But to Zira, it may be indicative of some other non-ordinary behaviors and abilities.

And she's proven right.

Patrick

 

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony B. McElveen" <abmac@...> wrote:

>
> On Jul 12, 2007, at 3:16 pm, patrickmichaeltilton wrote:
> > The chimpanzees in PLANET were not discriminated against based on
> > faith; there is only one "faith" -- one religious belief system --
> > in the Ape society…
> >

In PLANET, the only apes we know of who evince any doubts regarding the tenets of their official religion are Zira and Cornelius. Yes, they are chimpanzees, but they are not all chimpanzees; their professional fields of study leads to them seeking evidence to back up whatever view there is, be it an Orthodox view or an Unorthodox view. Both Zira and Cornelius, in their professional lives, had come across data which did not support the Orthodox views -- regarding Human Behavior (Zira) or Simian Origins (Cornelius) -- so that both of them sought to develop alternative theories to explain the evidence at hand.

Cornelius went so far as to go on a secret trip into the Forbidden Zone, to map it and to excavate at least one site -- all the while pretending that he had never gone there. It was after seeing some of the artifacts he'd brought back that Zaius suspected that he had been to the Forbidden Zone, prompting him to cancel his Travel Permit. Cornelius didn't admit to having actually violated the law and visited the Zone until, at the Tribunal, he finally admits to it... asserting that Taylor's description of it is accurate, which he knows, since he's been there.

But none of this has anything to do with the Quota System stuff! The QS was something in the Past, a way of discriminating against Chimpanzees, to keep them from having as much success in the professional world as the Orangutans. It is a system that had been abolished, allowing for Zira and Cornelius to pursue more satisfying careers than those chimpanzees from an older generation, having "fine futures" ahead of them. As long as they pay lip-service to the only religion practices by all apes, they are allowed to pursue their careers... within the Law. When Cornelius is told by "half the Academy" that his Evolution idea is Heresy, what does he do? He meekly accepts their verdict and craves their pardon, not getting carried away with any self-righteousness so that he can continue to have a life in the only society he knows of. Earlier in PLANET he is a kind of coward -- understandably so. Zira is headstrong, though, and tells him to "Show some backbone!" despite the fact that the moment he does that, he gives Zaius the rope to hang him with. But earlier, he refused to take Zira up on her challenge to explain the presence of Taylor, a human who can Write: "I don't... and I'm not going to try." Why not? Because, at that time, he knows it will be professional suicide and possible imprisonment for Heresy.

He wants to get married to his headstrong yet gorgeous fiancee, Zira, and he's not going to jeopardize that by courting Heresy charges. But she puts him in between a rock and a hard place... because she is brave/foolish enough to jeopardize her own career by pursuing her study of Taylor. Like it or not, he has to either disassociate himself from the she-chimp he loves, or join her in her unadvisable trip to prison by supporting her with his own closet heretical views.

> > But for you to claim that all chimpanzees somehow shared a

> > heretical view is just not supported by the evidence on-screen;
> > Zira and Cornelius are the only Apes who are "exposed" as heretics
> > -- the Orangutans don't even mention Dr. Galen in their Indictment.

Dr. Galen was an innocent pawn in Zaius' attempt to "expose" Zira and Cornelius. In order to get their targets to talk -- and, thus, to implicate themselves -- Zaius had Honorius make the false charge that she and her associate, "a corrupt surgeon named Galen", had worked over Taylor like Dr. Frankenstein to create a "speaking monster". The Tribunal was after Zira and Cornelius , not Dr. Galen. They merely used the notion that he had helped Zira create Taylor's speaking ability to get her and Cornelius to say the wrong thing... which Cornelius ended up doing by admitting that he had visited the Forbidden Zone, something which Zaius had suspected for the last year but could never prove. Once Cornelius admitted having violated the "ancient taboo" and, further, having boldly stated "Behold! This marvel! This living paradox! This missing link in an evolutionary chain --!"... there was no further need to implicate Dr. Galen with a charge Zaius knew to be false. The "heretical" Theory of Evolution, which Cornelius had, a year earlier, rescinded, he is now boldly advocating... just as Zaius had been hoping he would.

Maybe Dr. Galen was a heretic of some kind. Who knows? But there isn't a shred of proof in PLANET that he was, only the charge made by Honorius which is dropped altogether when "an indictment [was] in order" -- with only Zira and Cornelius being named in that indictment. If they truly believed Dr. Galen to be guilty of what Honorius had falsely charged, then they would've named him in the indictment, too.

But they don't need to anymore! They've got the goods on the two heretics they were after, which will give them the ability to destroy Taylor in the bargain, since only Zira and Cornelius were his "two friends and simian sponsors". With them gone, Taylor's fate is preordained. In order to get to Taylor -- without the stunned Ape citizens waging a revolution against their authority -- they first had to get his two "friends and simian sponsors" out of the picture. They were willing to ruin an innocent ape's reputation in order to accomplish that -- which is why Honorius accuses Dr. Galen of assisting Zira in her evil plot. But once they have Zira and Cornelius hoisted by their own testimonial petard, they no longer need to persecute Dr. Galen. He was but a pawn in their power politics... an innocent pawn.

> > When Eric Greene talks about the Quota System, he does so comparing

> > the chimpanzees to the Jews who, in America, were subjected to
> > "restrictive immigration, education, and employment quotas directed
> > against" them (Greene, 31-2). Is this a "faith"-based
> > discrimination, or a "race"-based one? Probably a bit of both, but
> > mostly one of Race. Jews are looked upon (by those who are bigoted
> > against them) as being predominantly a different "race" -- which is
> > why Hitler sought to exterminate them. Germans with even a small
> > percentage of Jewish blood were deemed "tainted" by it. Even though
> > the Nazis despised Judaism as a religion, it was the race of Jews
> > that they specifically hated, and sought to destroy.

The "Quota System" referred to by Dr. Galen is a thing of their Past. The anti-semitic discrimination it is analogous to was a thing of the Past from the vantage point of the late 1960's. You have to go back to a time before the '60s to get the meaning of the reference! Serling and Wilson addressed issues that had been important and relevant to them for many decades, going back at least to the time of the Second World War and the Post War period. It isn't as if the only problems faced by the generation living in 1968 were suddenly sprung up then-and-there; they were on-going problems, problematical due to the fact that the people running the country were the same "older generation" that had disillusioned the youth of the 60's.

That's why Lucius is introduced as a character in PLANET, and Taylor tells him to keep "the flags of Discontent" flying and to never trust anybody over 30 . Subtract 30 years from the release date of 1968 and it puts you smack-dab in 1938, when the world was being thrust into World War Two by insane leaders bent on genocide ["the sooner he (Man) is exterminated, the better!"] and global dominion ... when the Hitler Youth were effectively brainwashed by those leaders. Lucius represents the polar opposite of that malleable mindset of the Youth. In contrast to Hitler's brainwashed Aryan "master race" of blond-blue-eyed Germans, the Youth Generation that flourished in the mid-to-late 1960's was anti-establishment.

> Taylor decried Man's propensity for war in his recorded notes at the

> beginning of the movie, but he didn't mention racism. The sacred
> scrolls listed Man's reasons for killing as "sport, or lust, or
> greed," but Man's intolerance of those who are different didn't even
> make the cut. Taylor cursed all of Mankind for blowing itself up,
> because War isn't confined to a single race.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying that Taylor didn't see Racism as one of Man's problems? I remember him asking, rhetorically, "Does Man, that marvel of the universe, that glorious paradox who sent me to the stars... still make war against his brother? Keep his neighbor's children starving?"

What is the cause of War? What is at the root of Mankind keeping "his neighbor's children starving"? Mankind is a species which has split itself into factions based on a number of factors, one of which is undeniably that of Race. Of skin-color. Where are there liable to be whole populations of people starving to death? Answer: in Africa. Haven't you seen the commercials for charities begging the viewer to alleviate the suffering of starving children in poverty-stricken countries in Africa? Haven't you seen the film-footage in those commercials depicting black-skinned children with stick-thin arms and flies buzzing around them as if they're already dead, a haunted look of misery on their faces? Jeezus H. Christ! I've seen them ever since I remember first seeing a TV screen when I was a little kid!

Guys like Bono have been making concerted efforts to get the wealthier nations of the world to void the debts of Third World nations which can't even feed their own people. Wasn't that what the Live-8 concerts were all about? A way of addressing the G-8 nations regarding this system that seems designed to keep the poorest nations poor?

The Lawgiver also derided Man for this: "Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land." Did the Lawgiver, perhaps, know more of human history than some give him credit for? Did he know about the doctrine of Manifest Destiny, which granted the sanction for the white European colonists to expand westward, driving the Native Americans onto Reservations, stealing land by violating the very treaties they had signed with the tribes forced off their ancestral lands? Did the Lawgiver know about the colonial aspirations of the Dutch, the French, the English (etc) in Africa and India and Australia? PLANET was made when Apartheid was in full swing in South Africa, wasn't it? Did the blacks just welcome the white-skinned colonists to those places in Africa which eventually became dominated by wealthy white landowners? Or were they beaten into submission by better-armed colonial invaders?

It boggles my mind that you can't see in Taylor's comments -- or in the Lawgiver's anti-human slurs -- a criticism of Racism. Man murders his own brother when he wages genocidal war and oppression against members of "other races" -- members of the same human species which are Different due to their skin-color, or the shape of their facial features, or the way they dress, or the way they celebrate their religion. From the perspective of the Lawgiver, or of all apes, there is no such thing as a "difference" between one type of human and another. They don't see anything redeeming in any human. But humans have a way of banding together in one group and fighting against another group of banded-together humans. Tribe against tribe. Religion against Religion. Race against Race. This tendency helped to drive Taylor to misanthropy, and served as proof to the Lawgiver that Man could not be tamed, that he was a violent animal, "the Devil's Pawn".

It's for this reason that Sammy Davis, Jr. was such a fan of PLANET. He could see the Race issues at play in the movie, and at that level it "spoke" to him.

> > If all the gorillas are stereotypes, then why is Julius portrayed

> > the way he is? He isn't portrayed as cruel or stupid. He isn't
> > excessively violent against Zira's test-animals. He's a working-
> > class citizen; all the soldiers may be gorillas, but not all
> > gorillas are soldiers -- and Julius is the prime example.

You said "As I said in my earlier post, Gorillas didn't become military stereotypes until Beneath." By saying "Gorillas " you infer that it is "all gorillas", at least that is how it reads to me. If you had said "Gorillas for the most part didn't become military stereotypes" (or words to that effect), then I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Gorillas like Julius would then be exceptions to the rule, by that argument.

Besides, I don't think that the gorillas in BENEATH are portrayed stereotypically in their status as the Ape Military. Remember the scene where Brent overhears the group of gorillas searching for him and Nova? They have to keep looking for the escaped humans "because the Sarge says" so... even though the Army is approaching their position. One of the gorilla soldiers voices the opinion that they're gonna be rolled-over by the juggernaut as it heads into the Forbidden Zone. These are the voices of soldiers who are critical of the decisions made by their superiors in the chain-of-command, decisions which will involve "collateral damage" -- the anticipated "friendly fire" deaths of the Gorilla soldiers who are in the line-of-fire, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I don't see this as a stereotype-depiction. It seems more true-to-life to me. These aren't the gung-ho types we see in the Citizens' Council meeting, cheering on their Commander during his demogogic speech. These are the poor schmucks who have to serve in this war who don't have much say in how it is to be fought. Just like in the Vietnam War that was being waged when the film was made and released in theaters.

Still, the funeral-gorilla in PLANET , as I mentioned before, was said to have been a "warrior" -- which implies an Army which fought some kind of "war" in his lifetime. Gorillas didn't become a military in BENEATH ; they had been in a military situation at some time in the past of Ape City, so that one gorilla "warrior" could be lauded as such (among other accomplishments) at his funeral. Dehn didn't invent this, or "twist" his source out of all recognition; perhaps he -- despite his occasional mistakes -- read other elements of his source material [PLANET ] better than his critics, in order to capitalize on those elements to further his own sequel-story.

Patrick

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 1:34 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Aldo

I don't deny that Dehn made mistakes -- the most egregious being the change in date from "3978" to "3955". It still boggles my mind that he could've gotten that "wrong" since -- even if he had not gone through the film of PLANET frame-by-frame, and had restricted himself to the PLANET script, the date "3955" is not found in that script! The 3978/3955 change is, perhaps, the greatest mystery of all in the annals of PotaDom.

.

Maybe Dehn did think over the "3978" date shown in PLANET and purposely rejected it. Why might he have done so? This is just idle speculation, mind you, but let's suppose that he reasoned that PLANET cannot have taken place on the date shown on the EARTH-TIME clock which Taylor sees... because Taylor is led by that date [11-25-3978] to assume something which ends up not being true . He assumes his ship made it all the way to its destination, not based on having "read the tapes" but solely upon having seen the EARTH-TIME clock reading "11-25-3978"... and, at the end of the film, we know that his ship is not at its destination (320 lightyears away from Earth). It somehow ended up back at/on the planet Earth! Therefore, the date Taylor saw on his ship's clock must have been wrong.

I can see Dehn feeling justified in rejecting that 3978-date based on that reasoning. However, I can't figure out why he might've chosen to re-date the events of PLANET (and BENEATH) to 3955. I think you might be onto something, Neil: the sound of Brent saying "Three-Niner-Five-Five" has more of a ring to it than "Three-Niner-Seven-Eight".

But, with Dehn dead and gone, we'll never know...

Patrick

P.S. I do know that I'm glad that this "flub" was made, as well as the flub they made when they made the TV show's Opening Credits sequence differ in its end-date from what Virdon and Burke saw on their ship's EARTH-TIME clock the day after their landing. My scenario is able to make sense out of the 3978:3955 date-difference by applying the information presented in the TV series. Not only did Virdon's ship zip back to Earth by using an "Emergency Homing Device" -- going backwards through Earth-Time about 115 days on that 4.34-lightyear Jump through Hyperspace -- but Taylor's ship, too, zipped back to Earth in the same manner: a simple comparison makes it all make crazy sense. Virdon's 4.34 lightyears is to 115 negative EARTH-TIME days as Taylor's 320 lightyears is to... approximately 8,479 negative EARTH-TIME days -- and that duration of Negative Time, divided by the number of Days-per-Year, gives us just over 23 years of EARTH-TIME... the difference between "3978" and "3955". Taylor's clock, for some reason, fails to register the time-change, but all the other affiliated ANSA ships' EARTH-TIME clocks click backwards to tell Brent and the Ape-onauts what the true date is.

Mistakes? Sure. But they couldn't have planned it any better.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> -- Yes it is a strange one. The only thing I can think of is that maybe
> 3955 looks better in print, sounds better and rolls off the tongue more
> easily than 3978?
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of patrickmichaeltilton
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 1:34 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Aldo
>
>
>
>
> I don't deny that Dehn made mistakes -- the most egregious being the
> change in date from "3978" to "3955". It still boggles my mind that he
> could've gotten that "wrong" since -- even if he had not gone through
> the film of PLANET frame-by-frame, and had restricted himself to the
> PLANET script, the date "3955" is not found in that script! The
> 3978/3955 change is, perhaps, the greatest mystery of all in the annals
> of PotaDom.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> Just for the heck of it I have coloured some of the sketches I did the
> other week of different Ape abodes and have uploaded the pictures to
the
> files section: Members'
> <http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Members%27%20Art%
20ga
> llery/> Art gallery
>
> Neil
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@...> wrote:
>
> I just finished watching Escape with a freind who had
> never seen it...(she figured out the swith when Zira
> is in the cage with Heloise....)
>
> Two things that I would love to see screen grabs
> of....
>
> The court artisits drawings of Zira and
> Cornelius....wonder where those props wound up?!!?
>
> and near the end when Hasslein is talking about
> pollution and the population explosion....when he
> stops walking forward there seems to be a rather
> violent picture on the wall next to him.....
>
> Could anyone freeze these for me??
>
> Thanks,
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>

> Collectibles at great prices! :-)
>
>

>

> ge=2&osCsid=4e32ef2808b154a817e02462393fb4e7>
>

>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: mwhitty

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:46 AM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] American Cinematheque Runs Sci-Fi and Horror Fest

Jeffers will be there!

---

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Melinda G Kettler
Sent: Thursday, 19 July 2007 1:03 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ; friends_and_ fugitives@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [PotaDG] American Cinematheque Runs Sci-Fi and Horror Fest

In case anyone lives in the Los Angeles area, there is going to be a
screening of POTA and BTPOTA at this Sci-Fi Horror Fest. I've provided the
link below. You need to scroll down toward the bottom to see the reference
for POTA.

http://www.cinemati cal.com/2007/ 07/17/oh- the-horror- american- cinematheque- runs-sci- fi-and-horror- fes/

Melinda

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nlmoxham
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 10:17 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Escape grabs

I had a go at these Tim, but they didn't come out very well - the
picture I think you were talking about was very dark and blurry. I
cleaned it up a bit but it still looks a bit rubbish (quality-wise) .
They're in the Miscellaneous folder in the Files section.

http://movies. groups.yahoo. com/group/ PotaDG/files/ Miscellaneous/

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nlmoxham
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:53 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Ape places

These look great Neil. I particularly like the City by the Sea.

.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone be interested in some Limited Edition Prints of Neil's works
if we
> get some done a la the BTB Posters?
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> nlmoxham
> Sent: Thursday, 19 July 2007 8:53 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Ape places
>
>
>
> These look great Neil. I particularly like the City by the Sea.
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. <mailto:PotaDG%40yahoogroups.com>
com, "Neil
> Foster" <ntfoster@> wrote:
> >
> > Just for the heck of it I have coloured some of the sketches I
did the
> > other week of different Ape abodes and have uploaded the pictures
to
> the
> > files section: Members'
> > <http://movies.
> <http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Members%27%20Art%
25>
> groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/files/Members%27%20Art%
> 20ga
> > llery/> Art gallery
> >
> > Neil
> >
>

> I had a go at these Tim, but they didn't come out
> very well - the
> picture I think you were talking about was very dark
> and blurry. I
> cleaned it up a bit but it still looks a bit rubbish
> (quality-wise).
> They're in the Miscellaneous folder in the Files
> section.
>
>

>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\""
> <apefan23@...> wrote:
> >
> > I just finished watching Escape with a freind who
> had
> > never seen it...(she figured out the swith when
> Zira
> > is in the cage with Heloise....)
> >
> > Two things that I would love to see screen grabs
> > of....
> >
> > The court artisits drawings of Zira and
> > Cornelius....wonder where those props wound up?!!?
> >
> > and near the end when Hasslein is talking about
> > pollution and the population explosion....when he
> > stops walking forward there seems to be a rather
> > violent picture on the wall next to him.....
> >
> > Could anyone freeze these for me??
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

> I've already seen them. Jeffers
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mwhitty
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 3:46 AM
> Subject: RE: [PotaDG] American Cinematheque Runs
> Sci-Fi and Horror Fest
>
>
>
> Jeffers will be there!
>
>
>
>
>

>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melinda
> G Kettler
> Sent: Thursday, 19 July 2007 1:03 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com;
> friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] American Cinematheque Runs
> Sci-Fi and Horror Fest
>
>
>
> In case anyone lives in the Los Angeles area,
> there is going to be a
> screening of POTA and BTPOTA at this Sci-Fi Horror
> Fest. I've provided the
> link below. You need to scroll down toward the
> bottom to see the reference
> for POTA.
>
>
>

>
> Melinda
>
>
>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@... wrote:
In a message dated 7/20/2007 5:33:22 PM Central Daylight Time, atragon1@... writes:

"Weep if you must, but make an end to Zaro, he lives again...yes he has found peace in heaven..."

*** Well, I can say you have misunderstood all of these years... The actual line is:

"Weep if you must, but make an end of sorrow, he lives again. Yes, he has found peace in Heaven"

LOL!!! Ohmigoh, I'm weeping tears myself, this cracks me up so much! I'm surprised Atragon didn't hear the full line as ending: "... he lives again... yes he has found peace in Evan..."

You'd think, from the context, that the word "sorrow" could never be mistaken for the dearly departed gorilla's name: to "make an end of" somebody hints at causing that person's death. Of course, if you (mis-)hear it as "make an end to sorrow"... uh, maybe. But still, it's hard to see any POTA fan not understanding the line.

This reminds me of a funny book I thumbed through a few years ago -- the title of which escapes me -- but it was, essentially, a long list of mis-heard song lyrics, including the notorious Jimi Hendrix classic: " Scuse me while I kiss this guy"...

I don't wanna beat up on Atragon, so let me tell y'all a misconception I once had way back when, when I had seen CONQUEST on TV for the first time -- actually, when I first saw the MARVEL adaptation, back in 1975, when I was 10 years old. When Armando tells Breck and the others that he has never heard Caesar speak in his presence -- or anybody else's -- he states emphatically: "You can question my circus hands!"

Being a 10-year-old kid at the time, I mis-understood what he meant by "hands". If you look at MARVEL's issue #18, on page 13, in the first panel, Alfredo Alcala draws Armando with his two hands held out, palms outward, when he says the quoted line of dialogue: "You can question my circus hands!"

For some reason, back when I first saw that issue, seeing Armando refer to his "circus hands"... while holding his two hands out... I associated the two and wondered why in the hell Armando was suggesting that Breck could question the two hands at the ends of his two arms if he so desired. I wondered about that for about a year or so and then I must have heard the word "hands" used in reference to a full person -- as in "All hands on deck!" or something like that, and I finally had a Eureka moment and exclaimed aloud (to myself), "So that's what the f*** it meant!"

It doesn't surprise me at all that foreigners find the English language particularly difficult to learn, since there are quite a number of words which have more than meaning, and can be confusing, not to mention difficult to pronounce (think of words with the letter-string "-ough-" that don't rhyme: cough, plough, rough, though, thought, etc etc).

Still, once it dawned on me what that bit of dialogue actually meant, I felt like a smeggin' idiot for not having realized it right away. But, hey , what-the-f***, I was just a kid. Kids tend to be uninformed or misinformed, and sometimes they can seem more than a bit "slow". I still shake my head at that particular childhood misconception, every so often.

"... my circus hands..."

"Yes, Meester Breck... you can even question each of their feengers... including the thumbs!"

LOL!

Patrick

With all the ballyhoo over the phrase "by my species" used by Cornelius in ESCAPE , it occurred to me that I might want to review how it was used in Pournelle's novelization. Here's how he re-worded it in his version (which, of course, is only "based on the screenplay by Paul Dehn" and was not intended -- by Pournelle -- to be detail-for-detail exactly like the filmed version):

"At first, they only barked their refusal," Cornelius said. "But then, one historic day, there came an ape named Aldo who didn't bark. He spoke. He spoke a word which had been spoken to him, time without number, by humans. He said, 'No'." [Chapter 15, page 104]

Thus, in Pournelle's version, he doesn't even mention how that "historic day" is still commemorated "by my species" [in 3955] -- as Roddy recited the dialogue in the film.

Thumbing through the novelization, though, I found this passage from earlier in the text, in chapter 8 [page 54], in the scene where the Presidential Commission first questions Cornelius and Zira:

"Did you never wonder where your language came from?" the Cardinal asked. "I, for one, am very curious as to how a single language, English, became universal among your species."

"Not merely our species, sir," Cornelius said. "Gorillas and orangutans also speak our language. In fact, the gorillas and orangutans in my community believe--believed--that God created apes in His own image, and that our language was given us by Him." [my emphasis added]

Granted, this rewording of the script's dialogue is due to Jerry Pournelle having taken liberties with the scripted source material which he deemed appropriate. Unlike me, Pournelle didn't feel the particular need to keep his quoted dialogue slavishly in-line with how the dialogue was spoken by the actors on-screen, and he felt free to change things a bit, adding whatsoever he felt was appropriate.

Nevertheless, I find it satisfying to know that Pournelle -- who is not only a science fiction author of considerable standing in his own right, but also a professional scientist -- went out of his way to address this important fact: that the Apes of the future were comprised of three separate species, and Cornelius (a professional scientist) uses the word species in an appropriate way, to differentiate his own species -- the chimpanzee species he and Zira belong to (hence "our species " above) -- from the other two species of Apes who also spoke the English language, and who believed that its origin was from the "God" who created Apes in His own image and then created the Language they would come to speak.

My POTA epic, of course, will insist on maintaining the actual dialogue spoken on-screen (unlike Pournelle's novelization of ESCAPE ), but I must say that I've always thought highly of Pournelle's version -- notwithstanding the differences between it and the actual film -- because he was not a hack writer of novelizations [like Michael Avallone, whose mediocre version of BENEATH still grates on me], dashing off a quick text for a quick check. Pournelle added certain elements to the story that help to make his version even more compelling and believable, using his knowledge -- of politics, of the military, of science in general -- to ground this fantastic story on a bedrock of verisimilitude.

Pournelle understands the meaning of the word species -- it is a specific term used in taxonomy , the classification of all living things. The top position in the taxonomic hierarchy is DOMAIN (the three Domains being ARCHAEA, PROKARYA , and the one to which Apes and Humans belong, EUKARYA).

Next down the hierarchy is KINGDOM (the 4 Kingdoms being PROTISTA, FUNGI, PLANTAE , and the one to which Apes and Humans belong, ANIMALIA -- the Animal Kingdom).

Then comes the PHYLUM (the one to which Apes and Humans belong being the Phylum CHORDATA, meaning the creature has a spinal chord).

Next is the SUBPHYLUM (the one to which Apes and Humans belong being the Subphylum VERTEBRATA, meaning the creature has a segmented spinal column and a well-developed brain).

Next comes the CLASS (the one to which Apes and Humans belong being the Class MAMMALIA, meaning warm-blooded animals, the females of which have milk-secreting organs for feeding their young [from the Latin mamma, which means breast]).

The Class MAMMALIA is divided into many ORDERS, including the Order PRIMATES [pronounced pry-MAY-teez], so called because they are mammals of the first rank, of "primary " importance, having a comparatively large brain and complex hands and feet. Remember when Zira refers to the supposed evolutionary ancestor of Apes (according to Cornelius' "brilliant hypothesis") as "a lower order of primate... possibly Man"...? This line of dialogue is accurate in that the word Primate signifies one of the divisions of the Class of Mammals -- the Order Primates as opposed to some other Order. Zira's comment suggests that Man had not significantly evolved since the time when the Ape/Human concestor ["possibly Man"] lived, whereas the Ape had significantly evolved. The Lawgiver, too, used the word "primate " to be inclusive of all Apes and Humans -- though he, of course, didn't deem them to be evolutionarily affiliated -- when he refers to Man as a species which "alone among God's primates... kills for Sport, or Lust, or Greed..." The idea, in both cases, is that God created both the Ape and the Human -- all of His primates -- at the same time... that they all existed together in an affiliated population -- the Apes being made in His image and Man being relegated to a life in the jungle, since he had no Soul.

The next term in the hierarchy of taxonomy is a SUBORDER of the Order PRIMATES called ANTHROPOIDEA , to which all Apes and Humans belong, the word coming from a Greek word meaning humanlike.

Next is the INFRAORDER to which Humans and Apes belong, called CATARRHINI, from Greek words meaning downward-pointing-nose [kata = down ; rhinos = nose]; all Catarrhines have a pair of closely-set nostrils pointing down, as opposed to the Platyrrhini which have nostrils that are broad/flat/wide [from Greek platys].

The next taxonomic term is that of SUPERFAMILY, both Apes and Humans belonging to the Superfamily HOMINOIDEA, from a Latin word meaning humanlike.

The next taxonomic term in the hierarchy is FAMILY, including the Families HOMINIDAE, the Hominids (i.e. all species of Humans), and PONGIDAE, the Pongids (i.e. all species of Apes, as opposed to Monkeys), from a Congolese word mpongo, meaning "ape."

Next comes -- for the Apes -- two SUBFAMILIES, the Subfamily HYLOBATINAE -- which includes the Genera Hylobates (the Gibbon, the word hylobates derived from Greek wordroots meaning moving-through-the-forest) and Symphalangus (the Siamang) -- and the Subfamily PONGINAE , which includes the Genera Pongo (the Orangutan), Pan (the Chimpanzee), and Gorilla (the Gorilla) -- the word ponginae being a variant of pongidae .

The next taxonomic term is GENUS (plural Genera). For the Apes, the three Genera are (as listed above) Pongo, Pan, and Gorilla. For Humans, the single Genus is Homo, from a Latin word meaning human. [Stop your giggling, Michael!]

The last taxonomic term, of course, is SPECIES. Each species is classified (in the Linnaean system) by a two-name term, the Genus-and-Species. Thus, there is the species of Ape in Asia called Pongo pygmaeus (the Orangutan), the two species of African Apes known as Gorilla gorilla (the Western Gorilla) and Gorilla beringei (the Eastern or Mountain Gorilla), and the other two species of African Apes known as Pan troglodytes (the common Chimpanzee) and Pan paniscus (the Bonobo, i.e. Pygmy Chimpanzee). Incidentally, the use of the word troglodytes is misleading: the Greek word means "one who creeps/ enters into holes" [trogle = hole; dyo = to enter, related to the prefix dyna-, denoting power and ability, as in dynamic and dynastic]; chimpanzees do not live in holes (i.e. caves). The Ape City-like caves in Cappodocia (Asia Minor) are referred to as troglodytic in that the people who delved those caves and lived in them were troglodytes -- a term which could also be 'translated' as hobbit, which Tolkien says derives from an earlier word holbytla, hole-dweller.

The two species of chimps share a common ancestor -- or, Concestor -- which lived about 2 Million Years A go [MYA], and Mankind shares a Concestor with both species of chimp which lived about 5 or 6 MYA. Humans and chimps share a Concestor with the Gorillas which lived about 7 MYA. And humans, chimps, and gorillas share a Concestor with the Orangutans which lived about 14 MYA.

There is a debate amongst those who study evolutionary archaeology whether or not the Common Ancestor of all Humans, Chimpanzees, Gorillas, and Orangutans lived in Africa or Asia . Did that Hominid originate in Africa prior to 14 MYA and "send out" an offshoot into Asia (where it evolved into the Orangutan ), or did that concestor hominid population live in Asia first -- some staying there to evolve into Orangutans and the rest migrating to Africa to evolve into the Gorilla concestor (from which the Gorillas branched off from another line leading, ultimately, to the Chimpanzees and the Humans)...?

The debate goes on. For what it's worth, I think that the concestor of all Humans and Apes (i.e. the common ancestor of all Humankind, Chimpanzees, Gorillas and Orangutans) lived in Asia, having branched off from the line leading to the Gibbons, the 12 species of which all live in South East Asia still.

Cornelius, of course, would not have been able to advance a Theory of Evolution as detailed as the one scientists currently have established. MARVEL's Terror series notwithstanding, there is no evidence of there being any intelligent Gibbons in the Planet of the Apes saga, so that Cornelius' theory could not hazard any such guess regarding the relation of Gibbons to the other Apes. He would've been restricted in his knowledge of the global geography of simian origins as we currently understand it.

But he would not be stymied regarding the use of a scientific terminology specific to his speciality. He would know to use the word species -- as Pournelle portrays it in his novelization of ESCAPE -- to refer to each specific population of creatures within the subset of the Pongid family.

Patrick

According to the Yahoo! News service, actor Eric Braeden -- whom we all know and love for his portrayal of Dr. Otto Hasslein in ESCAPE FROM THE PLANET OF THE APES -- has just received his own star on the Hollywood Walk-of-Fame. Here's a cut-&-paste of the article...

Actor Eric Braeden gets Hollywood star

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mwhitty
Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:44 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints

Anyone be interested in some Limited Edition Prints of Neil’s works if we get some done a la the BTB Posters?

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mwhitty
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 12:08 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints

Well there is these – and the ape city set you recently did…..

.

> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Neil Foster
> Sent: Monday, 23 July 2007 11:16 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints
>
>
>
> Which ones?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Neil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> mwhitty
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:44 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints
>
> Anyone be interested in some Limited Edition Prints
> of Neil's works if we
> get some done a la the BTB Posters?
>
> .
>
>
>

>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Not sure how many here have the book Ape (The
> Kingdom of Kong) by David
> Annan from 1975 which, as well as the Kong stuff,
> has write ups on other
> 'ape' movies.
> In my opinion it contains one of the better POTA
> articles from this sort
> of book.
>
> I recently found a second hand copy of the book and
> have scanned the
> POTA pages (removing any non-POTA stuff) and have
> uploaded the pages to
> a folder in the files section:
> Ape
>

> om%20of%20kong/> - the kingdom of kong
>
> Neil
>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:15 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints

I haven;t seen all these!!....can we see them
separated?

--- mwhitty <mwhitty@optusnet. com.au> wrote:

> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
> Neil Foster
> Sent: Monday, 23 July 2007 11:16 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
> Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints
>
>
>
> Which ones?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Neil
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
> mwhitty
> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2007 8:44 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints
>
> Anyone be interested in some Limited Edition Prints
> of Neil's works if we
> get some done a la the BTB Posters?
>
> .
>
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo. com/serv? s=97359714/ grpId=8605785/ grpspId=17050214 37/msgId
>
=45343/stime= 1184841878/ nc1=3858793/ nc2=3848618/ nc3=3848429>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink. yahoo.com/ gmrs/yahoo_ panel_invite. asp?a=7

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:15 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints

I haven;t seen all these!!....can we see them
separated?

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:15 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints

I haven;t seen all these!!....can we see them
separated?

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:15 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints

I haven;t seen all these!!....can we see them
separated?

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:15 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints

I haven;t seen all these!!....can we see them
separated?

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:15 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints

I haven;t seen all these!!....can we see them
separated?

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:25 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Ape - The kingdom of Kong (the POTA pages)

I have that book! Got it when I was a kid....however
it is called "APE: Monster of the Movies"!.... .I'm
sure it's the same content though!

.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> -- A bit strange that. It's got to be the same book. Looks like they
> just altered the name slightly some where along the way for some
reason!
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:25 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Ape - The kingdom of Kong (the POTA pages)
>
>
>
> I have that book! Got it when I was a kid....however
> it is called "APE: Monster of the Movies"!.....I'm
> sure it's the same content though!
>
>
> .
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?
s=97359714/grpId=8605785/grpspId=1705021437/m
> sgId=45382/stime=1185229523/nc1=3858796/nc2=3848614/nc3=3848445>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/23/2007 6:26:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
>
>
> > I have that book! Got it when I was a kid....however
> > it is called "APE: Monster of the Movies"!.....I'm
> > sure it's the same content though!
> >
> > Thanks for scanning!
> >
> > TIm
> >
>
> Yeah, I bought that book back in the seventies too. Even earlier
than that I
> got a book called "Saturday Afternoon at the Bijou." About movie
series, it
> was one of the first books to discuss the Apes films. Only
black&white photos
> in that one though.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
> **************************************
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new
> AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>

>3c. Re: American Cinematheque Runs Sci-Fi and Horror Fest
>In a message dated 7/18/2007 11:36:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>mgkettler@... writes:>
> > In case anyone lives in the Los Angeles area, there is going to be a
> > screening of POTA and BTPOTA at this Sci-Fi Horror Fest. I've provided
>the
> > link below. You need to scroll down toward the bottom to see the
>reference
> > for POTA.

> >
> > Melinda
> >
>
>Damn! Damn! Damn! Don't post stuff like this! I so wish I could go!
>
>-- Rory

> -- A bit strange that. It's got to be the same book.
> Looks like they
> just altered the name slightly some where along the
> way for some reason!
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:25 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Ape - The kingdom of Kong (the
> POTA pages)
>
>
>
> I have that book! Got it when I was a kid....however
> it is called "APE: Monster of the Movies"!.....I'm
> sure it's the same content though!
>
>
> .
>
>

>

>
>
>
>

>
>
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:15 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints
>
>
>
> I haven;t seen all these!!....can we see them
> separated?
>
>
> .
>
>

>

>
>
>
>

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mwhitty
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 6:13 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints (choice #5)

Seriously hoping to do a run of about 20 – 25 of each in the same style (and size hopefully) as the BTB posters.

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:06 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] New file uploaded to PotaDG

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the PotaDG
group.

File : /Ape - the kingdom of kong/POTAp88. jpg
Uploaded by : mike_oz2002 <mwhitty@optusnet. com.au>
Description : Alternative p 88

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/PotaDG/ files/Ape% 20-%20the% 20kingdom% 20of%20kong/ POTAp88.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help. yahoo.com/ help/us/groups/ files

Regards,

mike_oz2002 <mwhitty@optusnet. com.au>

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Whitty
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:13 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Ape - The kingdom of Kong (the POTA pages)

What country, date and publisher do you have Neil?

.

> Seriously hoping to do a run of about 20 - 25 of
> each in the same style (and
> size hopefully) as the BTB posters.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Tuesday, 24 July 2007 1:00 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints (choice
> #5)
>
>
>
> LOVE 1, 2 and 5! especially 5! That's a "framer"!
> Are
> you going to do these?
>
> --- Neil Foster <ntfoster@bigpond.
> <mailto:ntfoster%40bigpond.com> com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.
> <mailto:PotaDG%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > [PotaDG@yahoogroups.
> <mailto:PotaDG%40yahoogroups.com> com] On
> Behalf
> > Of Tim "apefan"
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 8:15 AM
> > To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.
> <mailto:PotaDG%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Limited Edition Prints
> >
> >
> >
> > I haven;t seen all these!!....can we see them
> > separated?
> >
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> <http://geo.yahoo.
>

>

> >
>

> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

> -- Great Britain, 1975, Lorrimer Publishing.
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Michael Whitty
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:13 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Ape - The kingdom of Kong (the
> POTA pages)
>
>
>
> What country, date and publisher do you have Neil?
>
> .
>
>