.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:09 AM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Why be outraged by a few questions?

In a message dated 10/2/2007 11:12:12 AM Central Daylight Time, veetus@earthlink. net writes:

Cougar accused us of being liars. He had no proof, so that's an accusation.

*** I thought we moved past this?


************ ********* ********* ********
See what's new at http://www.aol. com

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:20 AM

Subject: [PotaDG] Re: So what is the frigging scene then?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, "Michael & Sally Whitty"
<sallywhitty@ ...> wrote:

He also said they had to modify the hairline so (again) he would not be
confused with Roddy.

Michael

*** Jeff, maybe you can answer this: I know that Bill does his own
makeup, as seen in the Cornelius act, etc.

BUT, just now Whitty said that Bill told him that "they" had to modify
his apes hairline. I'm guessing that "they" were the makeup people on
the show. Did he have help from them on this, or did he just do the
facial appliances and their people did the hair or how did that all
work?

<.html

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thanx mike

good to be here

busy today so cant stick around

cya tomorrow

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael & Sally Whitty"
<sallywhitty@...> wrote:

>
> Hi David.
>
>
>
> Welcome to the group.
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On

Behalf Of

> David Jackson
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2007 5:29 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] hello
>
>
>
> hi Im new to the group and wanted to introduce myself
>
> Im david and been a planet of the apes fan since I was a kid and
> watched the movies on tv with my dad
>
> looking forward to talking with fellow fans about the apes
>

what is the crappy audio thing

if you dont mind me asking

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael & Sally Whitty"
<sallywhitty@...> wrote:

>
> Very small and unbelievably devoted.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On

Behalf Of

> Haristas@...
> Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2007 2:11 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: That crappy audion thing...
>
>
>
> Why is the "audio thing" crappy? I thought everyone liked it.
>
> Also, as for "keeping APES alive".... I'd say it's pretty much

dormant

> but retains a small and devoted cult following.
>
> -- Rory
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael & Sally Whitty <sallywhitty@
> <mailto:sallywhitty%40bigpond.com> bigpond.com>
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. <mailto:PotaDG%40yahoogroups.com> com
> Sent: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 8:27 pm
> Subject: RE: [PotaDG] That crappy audion thing...
>
> OK forget the crappy audio thing! I
> WISH I COULD! J
>

.html

what is the crappy audio thing

if you dont mind me asking

.

<.html

Attachments :

S. Miller on the other group informed of us of this....on the new NBC show "Journeyman", a show about a man who blacks out and goes back in time, he flashed back to an airplane in 1975.....and Conquest is the in-flight movie! Here's a screen cap ...if you want to see the scene go here:

http://www.nbc.com/Journeyman/video/episodes..htmlbr>
It's about 4 minutes into the episode but it's very quick!!

"Apes" are tuning up everywhere!!!

Tim

---

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

.html <.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Michael & Sally Whitty

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:25 PM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] journeyman

Thanks Tim

---

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 9:45 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [PotaDG] journeyman

S. Miller on the other group informed of us of this....on the new NBC show "Journeyman" , a show about a man who blacks out and goes back in time, he flashed back to an airplane in 1975.....and Conquest is the in-flight movie! Here's a screen cap ...if you want to see the scene go here:

http://www.nbc. com/Journeyman/ video/episodes. .htmlbr>
It's about 4 minutes into the episode but it's very quick!!

"Apes" are tuning up everywhere!! !

Tim

<.html

.html <.html

It appears that NBC is blocking Canadian IP addresses to get these video
feeds. If any finds this somewhere else let me know as I'd like to see
it. It is good to know that there are people out there who still
remember POTA fondly enough even this small 'tributes'.

Kevin Smith, an acknowledged POTA fan who has made tributes like these
himself in the past, directed the first episode of the new show
"Reaper", but I did not spot anything there. Not sure if he's going to
direct or write any future episodes, but I've already crossed that show
off my watch list.

So unless someone injects POTA into "Heroes" or "Bionic Woman", I'll be
outta luck. ;)

Dario

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael & Sally Whitty <sallywhitty@...>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 8:25 pm
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] journeyman

> Thanks Tim
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of
> Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 9:45 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] journeyman
>
>
>
> S. Miller on the other group informed of us of this....on the new
> NBC show
> "Journeyman", a show about a man who blacks out and goes back in
> time, he
> flashed back to an airplane in 1975.....and Conquest is the in-
> flight movie!
> Here's a screen cap ...if you want to see the scene go here:
>
> http://www.nbc.com/Journeyman/video/episodes..html"
>
> It's about 4 minutes into the episode but it's very quick!!
>
> "Apes" are tuning up everywhere!!!
>
> Tim
>
>

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Dario Sciola

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 7:55 PM

Subject: Re: RE: [PotaDG] journeyman

It appears that NBC is blocking Canadian IP addresses to get these video
feeds. If any finds this somewhere else let me know as I'd like to see
it. It is good to know that there are people out there who still
remember POTA fondly enough even this small 'tributes'.

Kevin Smith, an acknowledged POTA fan who has made tributes like these
himself in the past, directed the first episode of the new show
"Reaper", but I did not spot anything there. Not sure if he's going to
direct or write any future episodes, but I've already crossed that show
off my watch list.

So unless someone injects POTA into "Heroes" or "Bionic Woman", I'll be
outta luck. ;)

Dario

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael & Sally Whitty <sallywhitty@ bigpond.com>
Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 8:25 pm
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] journeyman

> Thanks Tim
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [PotaDG@yahoogroups. com] On
> Behalf Of
> Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 9:45 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [PotaDG] journeyman
>
>
>
> S. Miller on the other group informed of us of this....on the new
> NBC show
> "Journeyman" , a show about a man who blacks out and goes back in
> time, he
> flashed back to an airplane in 1975.....and Conquest is the in-
> flight movie!
> Here's a screen cap ...if you want to see the scene go here:
>
> http://www.nbc. com/Journeyman/ video/episodes. .html"
>
> It's about 4 minutes into the episode but it's very quick!!
>
> "Apes" are tuning up everywhere!! !
>
> Tim
>
>

<.html

.html

Reminder from:		PotaDG Yahoo! Group
Title:		Charlton Heston's Birthday
Date:		Thursday October 4, 2007
Time:		All Day
Repeats:		This event repeats every year.
Notes:		Happy Birthday Charlton! (Taylor: Planet of the Apes (1968), Beneath the POTA (1970))
Yahoo! Greetings:		Send a Yahoo! Greeting
Yahoo! Shopping:		Browse Yahoo! Shopping Gift Guide
Get reminders on your mobile, Yahoo! Messenger, and email. Edit reminder options

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No APES nods here, but did you ever see Booth's appearance on
GILLIGAN'S ISLAND? (Or THE MONKEES or KUNG FU?)

Does he have any fond recollections of those or any of his TV guest
shots?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Did anyone see Booth Colman's episode of "My Name Is Earl"? I
didn't see it but I saw on the internet he played a scientist and the
episode was called "Monkeys in Space". Sounds like that could be a POTA
nod.
>

Which leads me to these questions: Would an airline show a film in
flight that was 3 years old (I thought they showed mainly current
films, even "back then")?

And, more interested in knowing: Can anyone confirm if any of the
APES films were actually shown on planes?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@...> wrote:
>
> S. Miller on the other group informed of us of this....on the new
NBC show "Journeyman", a show about a man who blacks out and goes
back in time, he flashed back to an airplane in 1975.....and Conquest
is the in-flight movie! Here's a screen cap ...if you want to see the
scene go here:
>
> http://www.nbc.com/Journeyman/video/episodes..html"
>
> It's about 4 minutes into the episode but it's very quick!!
>
> "Apes" are tuning up everywhere!!!
>
> Tim
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
Yahoo! Games.
>

I'm pretty sure they were saying it 75...I think that was on a newspaper he saw....the makers probably didn't care so much...

mlccougar <mlccougar@...> wrote:

Which leads me to these questions: Would an airline show a film in
flight that was 3 years old (I thought they showed mainly current
films, even "back then")?

And, more interested in knowing: Can anyone confirm if any of the
APES films were actually shown on planes?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@.. .> wrote:
>
> S. Miller on the other group informed of us of this....on the new
NBC show "Journeyman" , a show about a man who blacks out and goes
back in time, he flashed back to an airplane in 1975.....and Conquest
is the in-flight movie! Here's a screen cap ...if you want to see the
scene go here:
>
> http://www.nbc. com/Journeyman/ video/episodes. .html"
>
> It's about 4 minutes into the episode but it's very quick!!
>
> "Apes" are tuning up everywhere!! !
>
> Tim
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
Yahoo! Games.
>

---

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:12 PM

Subject: [PotaDG] Re: Booth Colman on TV

No APES nods here, but did you ever see Booth's appearance on
GILLIGAN'S ISLAND? (Or THE MONKEES or KUNG FU?)

Does he have any fond recollections of those or any of his TV guest
shots?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:
>
> Did anyone see Booth Colman's episode of "My Name Is Earl"? I
didn't see it but I saw on the internet he played a scientist and the
episode was called "Monkeys in Space". Sounds like that could be a POTA
nod.
>

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Tim "apefan"

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:30 PM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: In-Flight APES

I'm pretty sure they were saying it 75...I think that was on a newspaper he saw....the makers probably didn't care so much...

mlccougar <mlccougar@aol. com> wrote:

Which leads me to these questions: Would an airline show a film in
flight that was 3 years old (I thought they showed mainly current
films, even "back then")?

And, more interested in knowing: Can anyone confirm if any of the
APES films were actually shown on planes?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@.. .> wrote:
>
> S. Miller on the other group informed of us of this....on the new
NBC show "Journeyman" , a show about a man who blacks out and goes
back in time, he flashed back to an airplane in 1975.....and Conquest
is the in-flight movie! Here's a screen cap ...if you want to see the
scene go here:
>
> http://www.nbc. com/Journeyman/ video/episodes. .html"
>
> It's about 4 minutes into the episode but it's very quick!!
>
> "Apes" are tuning up everywhere!! !
>
> Tim
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
Yahoo! Games.
>

---

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff K.

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:43 PM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: In-Flight APES

  I would think it would be easier for them to show a Universal movie, since Universal is owned by NBC, unless "Journeyman" is produced by Fox. If not, there must have been a particular reason they wanted "Conquest" (like POTA evokes the mid-70's best or something).

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Tim "apefan"

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com

Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:30 PM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: In-Flight APES

I'm pretty sure they were saying it 75...I think that was on a newspaper he saw....the makers probably didn't care so much...

mlccougar <mlccougar@aol. com> wrote:

Which leads me to these questions: Would an airline show a film in
flight that was 3 years old (I thought they showed mainly current
films, even "back then")?

And, more interested in knowing: Can anyone confirm if any of the
APES films were actually shown on planes?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups. com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@.. .> wrote:
>
> S. Miller on the other group informed of us of this....on the new
NBC show "Journeyman" , a show about a man who blacks out and goes
back in time, he flashed back to an airplane in 1975.....and Conquest
is the in-flight movie! Here's a screen cap ...if you want to see the
scene go here:
>
> http://www.nbc. com/Journeyman/ video/episodes. .html"
>
> It's about 4 minutes into the episode but it's very quick!!
>
> "Apes" are tuning up everywhere!! !
>
> Tim
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
Yahoo! Games.
>

---

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

<.html

.html

Reminder from:		PotaDG Yahoo! Group
Title:		Woodrow Parfrey's Birthday
Date:		Friday October 5, 2007
Time:		All Day
Repeats:		This event repeats every year.
Notes:		Happy Birthday Woodrow! (Veska: Escape from Tomorrow, Planet of the Apes TV series (1974))
Yahoo! Greetings:		Send a Yahoo! Greeting
Yahoo! Shopping:		Browse Yahoo! Shopping Gift Guide
Get reminders on your mobile, Yahoo! Messenger, and email. Edit reminder options

Copyright © 2007  Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved | <.html

makes sense.....and it is so "seventies"...


--- "Jeff K." <veetus@...> wrote:

> Yeah, I just looked it up. "Journeyman" is
> produced by 20th Century Fox. Probably why they used
> it.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff K.
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: In-Flight APES
>
>
>
> I would think it would be easier for them to
> show a Universal movie, since Universal is owned by
> NBC, unless "Journeyman" is produced by Fox. If not,
> there must have been a particular reason they wanted
> "Conquest" (like POTA evokes the mid-70's best or
> something).
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tim "apefan"
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 4:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: In-Flight APES
>
>
> I'm pretty sure they were saying it 75...I think
> that was on a newspaper he saw....the makers
> probably didn't care so much...
>
> mlccougar <mlccougar@...> wrote:
>
> Which leads me to these questions: Would an
> airline show a film in
> flight that was 3 years old (I thought they
> showed mainly current
> films, even "back then")?
>
> And, more interested in knowing: Can anyone
> confirm if any of the
> APES films were actually shown on planes?
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim
> \"apefan\"" <apefan23@...> wrote:
> >
> > S. Miller on the other group informed of us
> of this....on the new
> NBC show "Journeyman", a show about a man who
> blacks out and goes
> back in time, he flashed back to an airplane
> in 1975.....and Conquest
> is the in-flight movie! Here's a screen cap
> ...if you want to see the
> scene go here:
> >
> >
> http://www.nbc.com/Journeyman/video/episodes..html"
> >
> > It's about 4 minutes into the episode but
> it's very quick!!
> >
> > "Apes" are tuning up everywhere!!!
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
> > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
> today's economy) at
> Yahoo! Games.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you
> sell.
>
>
>

.html In a message dated 10/4/2007 6:36:01 PM Central Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

I also mentioned his "I Dream of Jeannie" episodes and he said, "Yes, I remember that". He doesn't get too excited about TV.

*** Damn, I never knew he was on "I Dream Of Jeannie"... That connects him with Maurice Evans even more then (IDOJ,Shakespeare, and both being in an APES project...)


**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com<.html

.html In a message dated 10/4/2007 11:07:54 PM Central Daylight Time, PotaDG@yahoogroups.com writes:

Notes: Happy Birthday Woodrow!
(Veska: Escape from Tomorrow, Planet of the Apes TV series (1974))

*** Not to mention Dr. Maximus in the original PLANET!


**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com<.html

.html In a message dated 10/5/2007 12:34:01 AM Central Daylight Time, mlccougar@... writes:

I also mentioned his "I Dream of Jeannie" episodes and he said, "Yes, I remember that". He doesn't get too excited about TV.

*** Damn, I never knew he was on "I Dream Of Jeannie"... That connects him with Maurice Evans even more then (IDOJ,Shakespeare, and both being in an APES project...)

*** SCRAP THAT!!!!! I Got my shows crossed! Maurice was on "BEWITCHED", not "IDOJ"... My mistake!


**************************************
See what's new at http://www.aol.com<.html

.html

----- Original Message -----

From: mlccougar@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 10:36 PM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: Booth Colman on TV

In a message dated 10/5/2007 12:34:01 AM Central Daylight Time, mlccougar@aol. com writes:

I also mentioned his "I Dream of Jeannie" episodes and he said, "Yes, I remember that". He doesn't get too excited about TV.

*** Damn, I never knew he was on "I Dream Of Jeannie"... That connects him with Maurice Evans even more then (IDOJ,Shakespeare, and both being in an APES project...)

*** SCRAP THAT!!!!! I Got my shows crossed! Maurice was on "BEWITCHED", not "IDOJ"... My mistake!


************ ********* ********* ********
See what's new at http://www.aol. com

<.html

.html

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 3:35 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Birthday Reminder

In a message dated 10/4/2007 11:07:54 PM Central Daylight Time, PotaDG@yahoogroups. com writes:

Notes: Happy Birthday Woodrow!
(Veska: Escape from Tomorrow, Planet of the Apes TV series (1974))

*** Not to mention Dr. Maximus in the original PLANET!

.

<.html

.html

In a message dated 10/4/2007 6:31:32 P.M. Central Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

I also mentioned his "I Dream of Jeannie" episodes and he said, "Yes, I remember that".

 

Too bad it wasn't Bewitched.

That would be a Zaius connection.

<.html

Everyone here knows Woodrow Parfrey's been dead for over twenty years,
right?

-- Rory

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Oct 5 12:07 AM
Subject: [PotaDG] Birthday Reminder



















Reminder from:

PotaDG Yahoo! Group



Title:

Woodrow Parfrey's Birthday



Date:

Friday October 5, 2007

Time:

All Day

Repeats:

This event repeats every year.

Notes:

Happy Birthday Woodrow!
(Veska: Escape from Tomorrow, Planet of the Apes TV series (1974))




Yahoo! Greetings:


Send a Yahoo! Greeting




Yahoo! Shopping:


Browse Yahoo! Shopping Gift Guide








Get reminders on your mobile, Yahoo! Messenger, and email.
Edit reminder options






Copyright © 2007
Yahoo! Inc. All Rights Reserved |
Terms of Service | Privacy Policy

.html <.html

I've been avoiding the group of late due to the brouhaha regarding Mr. Blake. I can understand Cougar's (and others') desire to learn every nitty gritty detail regarding any element pertaining to the POTA tv show, but for the life of me I can't imagine anybody -- Bill Blake or anybody else -- making up some fictitious participation in an official POTA episode.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that a copy of the script for that episode (over at Hunter's site) doesn't exist with the scene in question: if that scene were quickly written as an insert or bridge connecting two other scenes, they may well have merely printed those pages [or, that single page?] for the use only of the few actors involved, plus the set people, the director, etc. There wouldn't necessarily be a need to print out a whole new script to replace all the other copies of the script that had already been parcelled out to the rest of the cast. And, since the scene ended up not being included -- for whatever reason, and there could be any number of them -- then those insert pages would probably have not been counted as part of "the" official script for the episode subsequently. If neither Roddy, James Naughton, Ron Harper (etc) had been in the scene, then you wouldn't expect their working scripts to include those insert pages which would later have been effectively excised when the scene was not included in the final cut.

If I had been the actor who was fortunate enough to have had even so minor a part of the making of a TV show based on a beloved film series... and was, however, unfortunate enough to have had that minor scene cut from the final version that aired, I would probably make as much or more of my fleeting bit of fame for the hardcore POTA afficionados. Mr. Blake talks about his "legacy" and, to many here, that minor participation in that episode ain't really much to speak of... but, if any of us happened to have been in his shoes back then in 1974, how would we feel if -- a third of a century later -- others would question our honesty regarding it? I can understand Bill being ticked off royally regarding all this. I can also understand Cougar (and Mike Whitty, et al.) desiring any itty bitty piece of evidence backing up Bill's story. I just wish this brouhaha hadn't gotten so overheated. I, for one, would've liked to see Bill Blake become a member of the group and join in on all the discussions, as a fellow fan of POTA. But I don't see any chance of that happening after all this.

I've envied Bill for years -- first when I read the Marvel POTA article about him and Paula Crist, and then later when I discovered that he had been a background player in "LOGAN'S RUN", another film I've been a huge fan of ever since it first hit the theaters. That lucky guy! Even if his involvement in both POTA and LOGAN was minimal... he was still lucky enough to have been there, a small part in a greater whole. When Christian Slater got to play a cameo role in STAR TREK VI: The Undiscovered Country he must've felt privileged -- even though he, at the time, was a leading man in all his other movies. He was a Trekkie who was happy to play a mere cameo role in an official Trek project. Even though Bill Blake's participation in POTA (and LOGAN) were rather minimal, still, I can see why he'd be really really glad to have played in those sandboxes -- glad enough to refer to those moments as part of his "legacy". Unlike many (most?) of the actors who played substantial speaking roles on the POTA show, it wasn't just a job for Bill, at least that's not the impression I get. Naughton wasn't a POTA fan prior to getting the role of Burke -- and he doesn't seem to have become a fan subsequently: it was just an acting job, one he was probably afraid would typecast him, hence his lack of enthusiasm regarding it. You don't see him at Comic-Con glorying in his laurels to the POTA geeks out there (and I'm talking about guys like me , guys who are proud to shake the hands of those lower eschelon actors out there who were a part of POTA back-in-the-day); how many people at Comic-Con actually go up to dudes like Don Pedro Colley and gush with fanboy adulation, in the presence of the actor who got to play scenes with Heston and Franciscus in BENEATH? That is, how many guys other than me! I got to meet him at the 2006 Comic-Con and it was more of a pleasure for me to meet him than it would've been to meet the leading actors in many an other sci-fi film or TV project -- just because he was a part of POTA.

I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on anybody here. I, too, would like to see any bit of evidence which may yet exist which might possibly expand the boundaries of our knowledge of the making of the POTA films and episodes. I just hope Bill isn't so pissed off about this brouhaha that he flatly refuses to have anything to do with fellow POTA fans on the Internet. If he should get a chance to see this message on the POTADG, I hope he at least considers it, for the sake of guys like me who don't have the luxury of living out in LA (like Jeff K.) and can't hobnob with him... yet would like to consider him not just a fellow fan, but a friend. Speaking of the POTA TV show, wasn't that kinda the point? How many episodes ended with new friendships that wouldn't -- couldn't -- have happened otherwise, if not for the enlightened intermingling of the Fugitives with the various adversarial types they met with in their travels? The Internet, at times, seems like an arena where people go to fight like apes rather than to live and work together with respect. It's bad enough when websurfing fans wage a flame war against each other... but to let those flames singe the skin of people who were participants -- be it ever so minor -- in the products we all claim to be fans of?

Patrick

 

Now that I got that out of my system, I have to get something else out. And, again, I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on anybody, but I have some serious issues with a POTA fan project being put out over at the old Yahoo POTA group. I'm talking about this new "CORNELIUS' JOURNAL" thing ("concept by Chris Lawless").

I'm still a member over there, and I get their "special notices" in my Yahoo email Inbox. However, when they censored one of my posts a few years ago, I had to cease participating in that group, as a matter of principle. If not for that, I would post this over on that group's Message Board, and not here at the DG. But, since I gotta yak about this "CORNELIUS' JOURNAL" thing somewhere , it might as well be here. If James & the Gang over there want to use my posts here about their project as a springboard for discussion, by all means, go for it.

So... what is my problem with it? The premise of this Journal thing is that Cornelius not only supposedly got permission to travel into the Forbidden Zone by the Academy, but that he was accompanied by a huge group, including Lt. Marcus, some archaeology students, etc. All this while Zaius was supposedly out-of-town and unable to use his clout to prevent such an expedition.

How can I say this without sounding like I'm ragging on Chris Lawless and whomever else is involved in the production of this POTA-fan project? I don't want this to come across as an ad hominem attack, and I mean that. But what can I say?

Their premise is sheer nonsense!

I get the feeling that they'll quote these lines from PLANET to justify their scenario:

Cornelius: "May it please the Tribunal, I--for one--grant you that this creature cannot have come from another planet, but this much is certain: he does come from somewhere in the Forbidden Zone. He's described the region to us, and described it accurately, for... I have been there."

President of the Academy: "You visited the Forbidden Zone?!"

Cornelius: "Yes, sir. Uh, a year ago--with the special permission of the Academy."

I can imagine that Chris & James (and whoever else over there) justify the notion that Cornelius had somehow acquired "the special permission of the Academy" in order to visit the Forbidden Zone . But that is not possible!

In order to travel anywhere outside of Ape City (and its environs), one must acquire... wait for it... a TRAVEL PERMIT . As Zaius retorts in the very next line: "He exceeded his orders; his Travel Permit was canceled immediately!"

In other words, Cornelius acquired permission to travel from the Academy... but not to the Forbidden Zone! Cornelius abused the "privilege" accorded to him by the Academy by going beyond the acceptable boundaries. His Travel Permit's "orders" would have stipulated certain places where he -- with his permit -- would be allowed to go... and by EXCEEDING those orders, he would be in violation of the rules/laws, causing Officialdom to cancel that permit-to-travel.

In his testimony to the Tribunal, Cornelius tries to justify going into the Forbidden Zone by stating to the President of the Assembly that he had gotten permission to travel (the Travel Permit) for the sake of that expedition a year before... but there's no way in hell that the Academy -- which is controlled by Orangutans, since chimpanzees have "no authority" (according to Zira) -- would ever allow an inquisitive archaeologist to venture into a territory which has been "closed for centuries, and rightly so" by the founder of their very civilization, the Lawgiver, the "greatest ape of all".

Notice that when Cornelius admits to the Tribunal that he had visited the Forbidden Zone ["for... I have been there"], he PAUSES and states his admission RELUCTANTLY.  "... for [PAUSE, then, with RELUCTANCE]... I have been there."

When Zira tells Taylor about Cornelius' "brilliant hypothesis" she tells him in a quieter tone-of-voice (i.e. sotto voce ) that "... in his trip to the Forbidden Zone, he discovered traces of a culture older than recorded time!" Why does she lower her voice when she says this? Because nobody knows about Cornelius' trip to the Forbidden Zone other than Cornelius, Zira, and whoever else may have been involved in that illegal trip. It was, has been, and still is a SECRET!

Zaius had suspected that the artifacts (i.e. those "traces"... the "very meager" bits of evidence he'd discovered) came from the Forbidden Zone, but he couldn't prove it . He was able to deduce , though [due to the nature of those artifacts which Cornelius had brought back from his Diggings to Ape City], that Cornelius had been to the Forbidden Zone (illegally, hence the immediate canceling of the Travel Permit), but he'd not been able to prove that those artifacts came from the Forbidden Zone. Cornelius must have denied that during the aftermath of that botched expedition a year before, all the way up until the Tribunal.

For it was at that Tribunal that Zaius cleverly maneuvered Cornelius into finally admitting that he not only had been to the Forbidden Zone, but that he had dug for artifacts there -- that it was from the Forbidden Zone where his artifacts came from. As Zaius tells Taylor, privately: "In a way, you did the State a service, because you made it possible for us to expose Zira and Cornelius."

It was Taylor's beleaguered situation at the Tribunal that prompted Cornelius to state his belief that Taylor was not from another planet (as Taylor claimed), but that he had to have come from somewhere in the Forbidden Zone, and he backs up his beliefs by stating that Taylor described the Forbidden Zone accurately -- something which could only be known by somebody who had been there, despite the fact that it was "an ancient taboo" for any ape to venture there.

That's why the President of the Academy reacts with stunned amazement: "You visited the Forbidden Zone?!" If it had been known by one and all that Cornelius had made such a trip, then there's no reason at all for this President to be so surprised by it. But the fact is, he WAS surprised by it! That's why James Whitmore spoke his line the way he did!

Zaius tells Taylor, "Our eastern desert has never been explored because we've always assumed that life cannot exist there. Taylor... save yourself! Tell me: is there another jungle beyond the Forbidden Zone?"

Zaius informs Taylor -- and us -- that the Forbidden Zone "has never been explored "... period! Of course, he is not including the unwarranted and illegal expedition that Cornelius mounted under the guise of an expedition to some allowed, permitted, place. Cornelius had EXCEEDED that permit's orders and gone into the Forbidden Zone. Zaius doesn't know that there is another jungle beyond the Forbidden Zone, though he suspects that there is... because the Zone hadn't been officially explored -- he uses the word "never".

Ursus tells the Citizens' Council that "the Forbidden Zone has been closed for centuries, and rightfully so." The Zone had not only "never been explored" (save by Cornelius, illegally), but had been CLOSED. Its very name says it all: it's the FORBIDDEN Zone. It is FORBIDDEN to travel there. In all Ape History nobody has ever gone there with the exception of religious APOSTATES: "Only an apostate would flee to the Forbidden Zone!" says Zaius to Cornelius. And WHY??? Because no law-abiding Ape would dare FOLLOW an apostate into an area declared off-limits by the Lawgiver! Zaius and his band of gorillas, however, are an exception to this -- because they KNOW that their religion is based on the lie that Apes have always ruled the world, in God's Image, blah blah blah. Zaius goes after Cornelius and Zira to their Diggings site because he is the "Guardian of the Terrible Secret", and the Gorillas are there to enforce this, under Zaius' authority.

Yet, Chris & James (& whoever else at the POTA group) want to believe that Cornelius somehow could've acquired official permission to travel into the Forbidden Zone. Despite these crucial lines of dialogue I've quoted above.

Well, they're free to think whatever the hell they want to think about that prior expedition of Cornelius'... but I reserve the right to counter that suggestion with the plain facts in the dialogue from the films.

I submit that all that talk about Travel Permits doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless we deduce that Cornelius ABUSED the privilege, traveling to a place outside the bounds of what the Academy deemed permissible. The Travel Permit gave Cornelius the official sanction to travel within the NON-FORBIDDEN areas (all that stuff on the LEFT side of his map's dashed line). But he did not and could not have gotten permission to stage a huge expedition into a FORBIDDEN territory... a region which had "never been explored" and had been "closed for centuries"... all that stuff on the RIGHT side of the map's dashed line. Cornelius only very reluctantly admitted to the Tribunal that he had actually been there ["for... I have been there"], in an attempt to explain the presence of Taylor, by finally growing the 'stones' to stand up for his Theory of Evolution, a theory which "half the Academy" had said was Heresy. Just as Zaius hoped he'd do.

When Lucius busts Taylor out of his cage, they (with Nova) accompany Zira to a rendezvous point where they meet up with Cornelius... and from there they travel "back to the diggings I worked at over a year ago." They must know that Zaius will have the Police hot on their trail... so you'd think that they would go back to those Diggings at a rapid pace, wouldn't you?

But no! Cornelius knows where his Cave site is, but Zaius doesn't! That's why Cornelius, Zira, Taylor, Lucius and Nova are able to make that 3-day journey at a leisurely pace. They could probably get there a hell of a lot quicker -- probably in a single day -- if they galloped there. But they proceed at a rather slow pace. Don't take my word for it: Watch the damned scenes showing their journey from the Rendezvous to the Cave! They take their blessed time, moseying along at a pace that somebody on foot could match!

If Zaius knew where that Cave site was, he could've easily gotten there BEFORE those fleeing chimps and humans -- all by going at a gallop , beating them to the punch. In order to get to Cornelius' illicit archaeological site, Zaius and his troops had to "pick up [their] trail" and follow after them. Because Cornelius, when he admitted (finally) that he'd been to the Forbidden Zone and discovered his evidence there, never told the Tribunal WHERE in the Forbidden Zone that artifact-laden site was located . Therefore, Zaius didn't and couldn't know where it was.

I'll wrap this up now. Just as Ty's REVOLUTION comic -- as welcome and entertaining as it was -- is incompatible with the established movies, due to the impossibility of Caesar having had foreknowledge of Doomsday during the events of CONQUEST (which would invalidate BATTLE , where it is MacDonald, the former Archivist, who informs him about the presence of the taped testimony of his Ape-onaut parents, proving wrong the notion championed by Virgil, that Time has no end, etc etc )... just as that comic's scenario cannot fit in with the "canon" of the film series, so too does this supposed Cornelius Journal not fit in with the established facts given in PLANET and BENEATH . And, sadly, it evinces a profound misunderstanding of the backstory that Serling and Wilson set up when the final version of the script was filmed. Taylor's hearing before that Tribunal was not convened to deal so much with Taylor (as Zaius says, Taylor's "case was pre-ordained")... it was an elaborate effort to "expose Zira and Cornelius" -- to prompt them to supply the rope with which they would proceed to hang themselves. Taylor's existence was used by Zaius (et al.) as a weapon to use against those two, to punish them for their "scientific heresy".

The "scarecrows" weren't put up to scare humans away from the cornfield. They were there to scare Apes away from the Forbidden Zone. Right after the scene at the Rendezvous, we are treated to a shot of those very "scarecrows" situated along the border of the Forbidden Zone, past which the caravan of horses, chimps, and humans go. The Apes know where the NON-forbidden areas end and the FORBIDDEN zone begins because those "scarecrows" are the markers indicating this! They were put up in order to CLOSE OFF the Forbidden Zone, to scare the bejeezus out of any Ape who may think of venturing out there. When the Mutants create the illusion of a desert field full of crucified gorillas, they use that scare-tactic against the Ape Army -- reminding them that they have violated their own "taboo" and gone where they were FORBIDDEN by their Lawgiver to go... that's why the image of the Lawgiver statue is included in that illusion. The Mutants were trying to tell that Ape Army to GO THE HELL BACK TO APE CITY, to respect the wishes of their own Lawgiver who forbade them from going into that desert in the first place.

The Quota System may have been abolished, but the chimps didn't have (and never acquired) the authority to bypass the dictates of "the State"... and Zaius is "the State" personified. He's (as Cornelius first refers to him) "Number One." The Chief Defender of the Faith. And that "faith" -- that religious belief system -- is intimately tied up with this whole business of a "zone" of territory being declared FORBIDDEN... with travel being not a Right but a Privilege requiring the acquisition of a TRAVEL PERMIT by the State. The notion that Cornelius' former expedition to the Forbidden Zone had official sanction is just ludicrous.

Patrick

 

 

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:09 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

Even if his involvement in both POTA and LOGAN was minimal... he was still lucky enough to have been there, a small part in a greater whole.

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:57 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Cornelius' Journal

Now that I got that out of my system, I have to get something else out. And, again, I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on anybody, but I have some serious issues with a POTA fan project being put out over at the old Yahoo POTA group. I'm talking about this new "CORNELIUS' JOURNAL" thing ("concept by Chris Lawless").

I'm still a member over there, and I get their "special notices" in my Yahoo email Inbox. However, when they censored one of my posts a few years ago, I had to cease participating in that group, as a matter of principle. If not for that, I would post this over on that group's Message Board, and not here at the DG.

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael & Sally Whitty
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 11:12 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

Hey Neil – was the makeup as good for the UK shows as Bill’s and Paula’s?

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael & Sally Whitty
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 11:45 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

Yeah – we don’t have any photos do we?

Don Pot masks maybe?

.

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I should probably clarify this a bit.

The main reason why I refrain from posting my critique of this
"CORNELIUS' JOURNAL" project of theirs over on that Yahoo POTA group is
that I am not confident that my posts there would be permitted there --
either partially or in their entirety. Once one post got censored, it
made me convinced that I couldn't trust that group's moderator(s) to
allow my participation sans censoring. I don't like being censored, and
I think it goes against the principles for which the POTA films/stories
stand.

Prior to joining the DG, I started up the POTA PHENOMENON group, just so
that I could have at least one place in Yahooland cyberspace where my
own posts could appear without the fear of someone banning me or
censoring my input.

I can see your point, Neil, regarding how you might possibly be treated
by those guys at the other group if you should reply (i.e. if you "agree
with [my] sentiments"), but I disagree about my critique of "CORNELIUS'
JOURNAL" being "pointless" posted here. It has the virtue of being an
on-topic discussion of a major plot point of the original PLANET OF THE
APES film and of how that backstory is understood or misunderstood by
those of us who study it.

I think that the folks responsible for "CORNELIUS' JOURNAL" have a
serious and considerable misunderstanding of that whole element of the
backstory of PLANET. If they think that they are right (and that my
interpretation of that material is incorrect), then I would welcome any
attempt by them to back up their interpretations with evidence from the
films. I welcome free and open debate about this (and anything else
POTA-related), and -- as I indicated the other day -- I don't want to
come across as if I'm bashing anybody. Just because I think that the
'basis' for Caesar's actions in Ty's REVOLUTION comic were equally
implausible, doesn't mean that I'm not glad that that comic book ever
came out. I consider it to be non-canonical, unable to be reconciled
with the prior (filmed) stories... but I'm still glad it was made, just
as I'm happy that MARVEL made its own original POTA stories.

I'm not "against" Chris Lawless and James Aquila (and whoever else)
making this fan-project "CORNELIUS' JOURNAL" -- I merely disagree with
their misinterpretation of the backstory revolving around Cornelius'
first expedition into the Forbidden Zone.

Having said that, perhaps it would be best if we, here at the DG,
concentrated more on delving into that backstory without necessarily
making critiques of that JOURNAL project. For my part, I just had to
cite chapter-and-verse regarding it due to this ongoing JOURNAL thing
prompting me to respond.

Think of it this way: I'm happy any time when a new POTA item appears --
as, say, when a new model kit of the so-called "Icarus" is produced.
But, when an Icarus kit comes out with incorrect interior detail... I
find it a mixed blessing. On the one hand, hey, it's a new POTA Icarus
kit, something new to have fun with. On the other hand... why the f***
can't they get the interior details right -- or at least righter? I'm
sure you guys are familiar with the MONSTERS IN MOTION Icarus kit, which
does have interior detail but, alas, didn't get those details all that
correct. On the "GOINGFASTER" website there's a page showing a
scratch-built Icarus with interior details based on the Jim Key
blueprints and -- though it isn't 100% perfect (since Mr. Key's
blueprints weren't 100% perfect) -- it is still far superior to any of
the "official" kits that have been put out there.

So... I'm not gonna bash MONSTERS IN MOTION for not getting the details
as right as they could've gotten 'em... but I will point out that the
incorrect details are incorrect. Same goes for this "CORNELIUS' JOURNAL"
thing: I'm not bashin' Chris & James (etc) for putting this fan-made
project out there... but it's like the proverbial house built on sand,
its foundation being a humongous flaw that will make their scenario fall
flat.

The notion that Cornelius got official permission not just to travel,
but to go into the Forbidden Zone to dig up whatever he might find
there... it's just impossible. It had been "closed for centuries"... it
had "never been explored"... it was FORBIDDEN. Only an apostate would go
there -- fleeing from the enforcers of the State's status quo. When
Ursus asks Zaius, "What is more dangerous than famine, Doctor?"... the
old orangutan replies, "The unknown." Zaius fears the Forbidden Zone
even then, even after he had been through a part of it in his pursuit of
Cornelius & Zira & Taylor... because that lifeless place was "once a
paradise" which Man had turned into a desert. The power Man once had...
the ability to turn a Paradise into a Wasteland... Zaius fears that.
And, when Ursus gets evidence that that Zone is INHABITED by "unsimian"
beings who undoubtedly tortured the lone surviving Scout... who can
blame Zaius for being fearful of that Unknown danger?

The notion that all it would take is for Zaius to be "out of town"...
away from Ape City on a visit to "the Provinces"... in order for the
Academy to give their nod of approval to Cornelius to go out into the
Forbidden Zone and dig for artifacts... it's just too ludicrous to
contemplate. Zaius is the "Number One" official in the Ministry of
Science, and as the CHIEF Minister of Science it would take his blessing
-- at the very least -- to override the Lawgiver's "ancient taboo"
forbidding Apes from going into that forbidden area. As it is, it is
only after the "incident" involving Ursus' scout that gives Ursus the
power to override that taboo -- because Ursus had to have declared
Martial Law, seizing power and taking the reins of government away from
the Orangutans. Only then can Ursus refer to that neighboring wasteland
as "the once-Forbidden Zone"... as if the Lawgiver himself had appeared
in a mystical Vision like the Pillar of Fire out of the book of Exodus,
rescinding his ancient designation of "forbidden" to that desert, to
give Ursus the heavenly "thumbs up" to his Invasion plans.

If Ursus had said, "The Forbidden Zone has been closed for MONTHS...
ever since the good Doctor Zaius revoked Doctor Cornelius' TRAVEL
PERMIT, cutting short his archaeological expedition..." then I might
consider the scenario dreamed up by Lawless to be even remotely
plausible. But not really. There's still way too much detail in
on-screen dialogue that makes it impossible.

And that's just the way it is. They, if they wish, can try to cite
details from the films that back up their scenario, it they can. I, for
one, wouldn't mind seeing 'em try. But that is up to them. I trust, Neil
(and Mike), that if they were to post replies here at the DG, that you
guys wouldn't censor them... right? You'd let 'em defend their scenario
here, I would hope, if they should choose to respond...?

Patrick

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> -- You really should post this on their group Patrick, whether you
feel
> aggrieved at them or not for whatever reason. It's really rather
> pointless airing it here. Besides if I or Michael reply to this post
> and, God forbid, agree with your sentiments we will probably be hung
up
> for trying to start a flame war or for group bashing or something,
it's
> what usually happens.
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf
> Of patrickmichaeltilton
> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:57 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Cornelius' Journal
>
>
>
>
> Now that I got that out of my system, I have to get something else
out.
> And, again, I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on anybody, but I
> have some serious issues with a POTA fan project being put out over at
> the old Yahoo POTA group. I'm talking about this new "CORNELIUS'
> JOURNAL" thing ("concept by Chris Lawless").
>
> I'm still a member over there, and I get their "special notices" in my
> Yahoo email Inbox. However, when they censored one of my posts a few
> years ago, I had to cease participating in that group, as a matter of
> principle. If not for that, I would post this over on that group's
> Message Board, and not here at the DG.

I agree....anyone have any leads on these guys?

Neil Foster <ntfoster@...> wrote:

-- We should also see if we can track down the people who acted in the UK live shows. They are also a (minor) part of POTA history as well and should be recognised by us for their involvement in bringing Apes to the fans.

 

Neil

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [PotaDG@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilto n
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:09 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

Even if his involvement in both POTA and LOGAN was minimal... he was still lucky enough to have been there, a small part in a greater whole.

.

---

Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

Didn't they have like a whole show with horses and all ?

Neil Foster <ntfoster@...> wrote:

-- You know, I truly can't remember though I heavily suspect that they were not as good. I think they probably just had pull-over masks.

 

Neil

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [PotaDG@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Michael & Sally Whitty
Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 11:12 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

Hey Neil – was the makeup as good for the UK shows as Bill’s and Paula’s?

.

---

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

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I have this in my files....can anyone elaborate?

"Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@...> wrote:

Didn't they have like a whole show with horses and all ?

Neil Foster <ntfoster@bigpond. com> wrote:

-- You know, I truly can't remember though I heavily suspect that they were not as good. I think they probably just had pull-over masks.

 

Neil

 

---

Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

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.html *** These masks are actually better looking than the "pull-over masks" used in the films and TV show... But, that astronaut's suit is h i d e o u s! Anything from the 1930's look more believable...



In a message dated 10/6/2007 8:59:39 PM Central Daylight Time, ntfoster@... writes:

-- Only this that I know of, from a newspaper article at the time:




Neil

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See what's new at http://www.aol.com<.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 5:02 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

Didn't they have like a whole show with horses and all ?

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 5:18 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: UK APES

*** These masks are actually better looking than the "pull-over masks" used in the films and TV show... But, that astronaut's suit is h i d e o u s! Anything from the 1930's look more believable...

<.html

.html In a message dated 10/7/2007 3:32:06 PM Central Daylight Time, ntfoster@... writes:

-- That's not how the astronauts were dressed, he's not wearing his costume here.

Thankfully...

From your recollections, was the astronaut outfit similar to the white ones in the films/TV series, or were the astronaut outfits just the raggedy TV series style  clothes?


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See what's new at http://www.aol.com<.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 6:35 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: UK APES

From your recollections, was the astronaut outfit similar to the white ones in the films/TV series, or were the astronaut outfits just the raggedy TV series style  clothes?

.

<.html

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 4:58 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

I agree....anyone have any leads on these guys?

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael & Sally Whitty
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 7:57 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] UK SHow

Neil

Is the show/Date you went to listed here?

.

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-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael & Sally Whitty
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:04 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Geoffrey Freshwater from The UK Live Apes Show

Looks like him here – now to get in touch!  J

http://www.rsc. org.uk/content/ 5561.aspx

.

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In a message dated 10/7/2007 3:29:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time, ntfoster@... writes:

-- Yes, they did a whole rodeo type thing with gorillas on horses chasing the humans, catching the humans who then escaped and were chased again etc.

 

Now that sounds cool!

 

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In a message dated 10/7/2007 5:05:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, sallywhitty@... writes:

Looks like him here – now to get in touch!  J

 

He's come a long way from being lassoed by gorillas.

 

<.html

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Reminder from:		PotaDG Yahoo! Group
Title:		Dan Striekepe's Birthday
Date:		Monday October 8, 2007
Time:		All Day
Repeats:		This event repeats every year.
Notes:		Happy Birthday Dan! (Makeup supervisor: Beneath the POTA (1970), Escape from the POTA (1971), Conquest of the POTA (1972) Makeup Artist: Escape from Tomorrow, The Gladiators, The Trap & The Good Seeds, Planet of the Apes TV series (1974))
Yahoo! Greetings:		Send a Yahoo! Greeting
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Now THAT's inspiration...starting as a human in a live POTA show and winding up at the Royal Shakespeare Company...!

Michael & Sally Whitty <sallywhitty@...> wrote:

Looks like him here – now to get in touch!  J

 

http://www.rsc. org.uk/content/ 5561.aspx

 

Michael

 

---

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Neil Foster
Sent: Monday, 8 October 2007 7:52 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [PotaDG] The UK Live Apes Show

 

-- Well according to the article that goes with the photo the names of the guys who were Urko and the gorilla soldier were: Nigel Jones and John Mundy (doesn't say who was who) and the astronaut was Geoff Freshwater.

 

And according to a picture of a badge I have for it, the name of the troupe who did the show was the Western Rodeos Wild West Show. Hopefully this is a few things that can hopefully be followed up?

 

Neil

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 4:58 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

I agree....anyone have any leads on these guys?

.

---

Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more!

So it was a scripted type thing.....? What did Galen and Zaius do??
Would love to have seen this!

Neil Foster <ntfoster@...> wrote:

-- Nope. I saw the show at Rochdale Football Club's ground. Not sure of the date though. I did, at the time, have a poster for it that was up in the local newsagent's window advertising it but that is long gone, sigh...

 

After the show they sold photos of the characters and signed them for you. I got pictures of 'Zaius' and 'Galen' which they autographed. Also sadly long gone!

 

Neil

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [PotaDG@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Michael & Sally Whitty
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 7:57 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] UK SHow

Neil

Is the show/Date you went to listed here?

.

---

Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

I will,....

Michael & Sally Whitty <sallywhitty@...> wrote:

I didn’t see any contact details.

 

If anyone else DOES, please let me know.

 

Not sure about Scrolls – Tim, maybe you could ask Dave or John?

 

Michael

 

---

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Neil Foster
Sent: Monday, 8 October 2007 8:14 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Geoffrey Freshwater from The UK Live Apes Show

 

-- Well it certainly looks like him but I'll let you contact him, you're good at that sort of stuff.

I am surprised though that something like the Scrolls magazine hasn't found and interviewed these guys (or have they?)

 

Neil

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Michael & Sally Whitty
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:04 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [PotaDG] Geoffrey Freshwater from The UK Live Apes Show

Looks like him here – now to get in touch!  J

http://www.rsc. org.uk/content/ 5561.aspx

.

---

Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

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----- Original Message -----

From: patrickmichaeltilton

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 9:09 AM

Subject: [PotaDG] Bill Blake

I've been avoiding the group of late due to the brouhaha regarding Mr. Blake. I can understand Cougar's (and others') desire to learn every nitty gritty detail regarding any element pertaining to the POTA tv show, but for the life of me I can't imagine anybody -- Bill Blake or anybody else -- making up some fictitious participation in an official POTA episode.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that a copy of the script for that episode (over at Hunter's site) doesn't exist with the scene in question: if that scene were quickly written as an insert or bridge connecting two other scenes, they may well have merely printed those pages [or, that single page?] for the use only of the few actors involved, plus the set people, the director, etc. There wouldn't necessarily be a need to print out a whole new script to replace all the other copies of the script that had already been parcelled out to the rest of the cast. And, since the scene ended up not being included -- for whatever reason, and there could be any number of them -- then those insert pages would probably have not been counted as part of "the" official script for the episode subsequently. If neither Roddy, James Naughton, Ron Harper (etc) had been in the scene, then you wouldn't expect their working scripts to include those insert pages which would later have been effectively excised when the scene was not included in the final cut.

If I had been the actor who was fortunate enough to have had even so minor a part of the making of a TV show based on a beloved film series... and was, however, unfortunate enough to have had that minor scene cut from the final version that aired, I would probably make as much or more of my fleeting bit of fame for the hardcore POTA afficionados. Mr. Blake talks about his "legacy" and, to many here, that minor participation in that episode ain't really much to speak of... but, if any of us happened to have been in his shoes back then in 1974, how would we feel if -- a third of a century later -- others would question our honesty regarding it? I can understand Bill being ticked off royally regarding all this. I can also understand Cougar (and Mike Whitty, et al.) desiring any itty bitty piece of evidence backing up Bill's story. I just wish this brouhaha hadn't gotten so overheated. I, for one, would've liked to see Bill Blake become a member of the group and join in on all the discussions, as a fellow fan of POTA. But I don't see any chance of that happening after all this.

I've envied Bill for years -- first when I read the Marvel POTA article about him and Paula Crist, and then later when I discovered that he had been a background player in "LOGAN'S RUN", another film I've been a huge fan of ever since it first hit the theaters. That lucky guy! Even if his involvement in both POTA and LOGAN was minimal... he was still lucky enough to have been there, a small part in a greater whole. When Christian Slater got to play a cameo role in STAR TREK VI: The Undiscovered Country he must've felt privileged -- even though he, at the time, was a leading man in all his other movies. He was a Trekkie who was happy to play a mere cameo role in an official Trek project. Even though Bill Blake's participation in POTA (and LOGAN) were rather minimal, still, I can see why he'd be really really glad to have played in those sandboxes -- glad enough to refer to those moments as part of his "legacy". Unlike many (most?) of the actors who played substantial speaking roles on the POTA show, it wasn't just a job for Bill, at least that's not the impression I get. Naughton wasn't a POTA fan prior to getting the role of Burke -- and he doesn't seem to have become a fan subsequently: it was just an acting job, one he was probably afraid would typecast him, hence his lack of enthusiasm regarding it. You don't see him at Comic-Con glorying in his laurels to the POTA geeks out there (and I'm talking about guys like me, guys who are proud to shake the hands of those lower eschelon actors out there who were a part of POTA back-in-the- day); how many people at Comic-Con actually go up to dudes like Don Pedro Colley and gush with fanboy adulation, in the presence of the actor who got to play scenes with Heston and Franciscus in BENEATH? That is, how many guys other than me! I got to meet him at the 2006 Comic-Con and it was more of a pleasure for me to meet him than it would've been to meet the leading actors in many an other sci-fi film or TV project -- just because he was a part of POTA.

I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on anybody here. I, too, would like to see any bit of evidence which may yet exist which might possibly expand the boundaries of our knowledge of the making of the POTA films and episodes. I just hope Bill isn't so pissed off about this brouhaha that he flatly refuses to have anything to do with fellow POTA fans on the Internet. If he should get a chance to see this message on the POTADG, I hope he at least considers it, for the sake of guys like me who don't have the luxury of living out in LA (like Jeff K.) and can't hobnob with him... yet would like to consider him not just a fellow fan, but a friend. Speaking of the POTA TV show, wasn't that kinda the point? How many episodes ended with new friendships that wouldn't -- couldn't -- have happened otherwise, if not for the enlightened intermingling of the Fugitives with the various adversarial types they met with in their travels? The Internet, at times, seems like an arena where people go to fight like apes rather than to live and work together with respect. It's bad enough when websurfing fans wage a flame war against each other... but to let those flames singe the skin of people who were participants -- be it ever so minor -- in the products we all claim to be fans of?

Patrick

 

<.html

.html That is a start anyway... And, now I'm having second thoughts about bits being cut from the show... In SIMIAN SCROLLS, there's that interview with Biff Elliot and he mentions how a line of his was cut out of "The Cure".. From the way it reads, it almost sounds like he just made the line up while filming, but I might have misread that. (But the line was in the novelization of "The Cure", so I'm guessing it was probably scripted.) Either way, I might have been too quick to say they wouldn't have cut anything, because they did with Biff, so maybe Bill's bit was too. We'll probably never know.






In a message dated 10/8/2007 12:11:42 PM Central Daylight Time, veetus@... writes:

And yes, I took a gander at Bill's residual stuff. He has an itemized statement and a copy of the check. It say "The Interrogation" and is from Fox. It was for cable showings and video (DVD I guess, I don't know of the TV show ever coming out on VHS).So that's that (if you want to believe me) until a script copy turns up. Later, Jeff

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thanx

I listened over the weekend

it was ok and maybe a little crappy

it really needs a narrator and less long periods of music only

dont like the voice doing heston doesnt sound like him at all

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> -- A few members here (but certainly not all) don't like it and
think it
> 's 'crappy' but you never know, you may like it David.
> Check it out here:
> http://www.brokensea.com/planetoftheapes
>
> Neil-----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of David Jackson
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 3:55 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: That crappy audio thing...
>
>
>
> what is the crappy audio thing
>
> if you dont mind me asking
>
> .
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?
s=97359714/grpId=8605785/grpspId=1705021437/m
> sgId=46528/stime=1191453067/nc1=3858796/nc2=3848614/nc3=4936877>
>

I like the cornelius journals

they are alot of fun to read

so they have a different interpetation than you

why are you so upset by them

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "patrickmichaeltilton"
<patrickmichaeltilton@...> wrote:

>
>
> Now that I got that out of my system, I have to get something else

out.

> And, again, I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on anybody, but I
> have some serious issues with a POTA fan project being put out over

at

> the old Yahoo POTA group. I'm talking about this new "CORNELIUS'
> JOURNAL" thing ("concept by Chris Lawless").
>
> I'm still a member over there, and I get their "special notices" in

my

> Yahoo email Inbox. However, when they censored one of my posts a few
> years ago, I had to cease participating in that group, as a matter

of

> principle. If not for that, I would post this over on that group's
> Message Board, and not here at the DG. But, since I gotta yak about

this

> "CORNELIUS' JOURNAL" thing somewhere, it might as well be here. If

James

> & the Gang over there want to use my posts here about their project

as a

> springboard for discussion, by all means, go for it.
>
> So... what is my problem with it? The premise of this Journal thing

is

> that Cornelius not only supposedly got permission to travel into the
> Forbidden Zone by the Academy, but that he was accompanied by a huge
> group, including Lt. Marcus, some archaeology students, etc. All

this

> while Zaius was supposedly out-of-town and unable to use his clout

to

> prevent such an expedition.
>
> How can I say this without sounding like I'm ragging on Chris

Lawless

> and whomever else is involved in the production of this POTA-fan
> project? I don't want this to come across as an ad hominem attack,

and I

> mean that. But what can I say?
>
> Their premise is sheer nonsense!
>
> I get the feeling that they'll quote these lines from PLANET to

justify

> their scenario:
>
> Cornelius: "May it please the Tribunal, I--for one--grant you that

this

> creature cannot have come from another planet, but this much is

certain:

> he does come from somewhere in the Forbidden Zone. He's described

the

> region to us, and described it accurately, for... I have been

there."

>
> President of the Academy: "You visited the Forbidden Zone?!"
>
> Cornelius: "Yes, sir. Uh, a year ago--with the special permission

of the

> Academy."
>
> I can imagine that Chris & James (and whoever else over there)

justify

> the notion that Cornelius had somehow acquired "the special

permission

> of the Academy" in order to visit the Forbidden Zone. But that is

not

> possible!
>
> In order to travel anywhere outside of Ape City (and its environs),

one

> must acquire... wait for it... a TRAVEL PERMIT. As Zaius retorts in

the

> very next line: "He exceeded his orders; his Travel Permit was

canceled

> immediately!"
>
> In other words, Cornelius acquired permission to travel from the
> Academy... but not to the Forbidden Zone! Cornelius abused the
> "privilege" accorded to him by the Academy by going beyond the
> acceptable boundaries. His Travel Permit's "orders" would have
> stipulated certain places where he -- with his permit -- would be
> allowed to go... and by EXCEEDING those orders, he would be in

violation

> of the rules/laws, causing Officialdom to cancel that permit-to-

travel.

>
> In his testimony to the Tribunal, Cornelius tries to justify going

into

> the Forbidden Zone by stating to the President of the Assembly that

he

> had gotten permission to travel (the Travel Permit) for the sake of

that

> expedition a year before... but there's no way in hell that the

Academy

> -- which is controlled by Orangutans, since chimpanzees have "no
> authority" (according to Zira) -- would ever allow an inquisitive
> archaeologist to venture into a territory which has been "closed for
> centuries, and rightly so" by the founder of their very

civilization,

> the Lawgiver, the "greatest ape of all".
>
> Notice that when Cornelius admits to the Tribunal that he had

visited

> the Forbidden Zone ["for... I have been there"], he PAUSES and

states

> his admission RELUCTANTLY. "... for [PAUSE, then, with

RELUCTANCE]... I

> have been there."
>
> When Zira tells Taylor about Cornelius' "brilliant hypothesis" she

tells

> him in a quieter tone-of-voice (i.e. sotto voce) that "... in his

trip

> to the Forbidden Zone, he discovered traces of a culture older than
> recorded time!" Why does she lower her voice when she says this?

Because

> nobody knows about Cornelius' trip to the Forbidden Zone other than
> Cornelius, Zira, and whoever else may have been involved in that

illegal

> trip. It was, has been, and still is a SECRET!
>
> Zaius had suspected that the artifacts (i.e. those "traces"...

the "very

> meager" bits of evidence he'd discovered) came from the Forbidden

Zone,

> but he couldn't prove it. He was able to deduce, though [due to the
> nature of those artifacts which Cornelius had brought back from his
> Diggings to Ape City], that Cornelius had been to the Forbidden Zone
> (illegally, hence the immediate canceling of the Travel Permit), but
> he'd not been able to prove that those artifacts came from the

Forbidden

> Zone. Cornelius must have denied that during the aftermath of that
> botched expedition a year before, all the way up until the Tribunal.
>
> For it was at that Tribunal that Zaius cleverly maneuvered Cornelius
> into finally admitting that he not only had been to the Forbidden

Zone,

> but that he had dug for artifacts there -- that it was from the
> Forbidden Zone where his artifacts came from. As Zaius tells Taylor,
> privately: "In a way, you did the State a service, because you made

it

> possible for us to expose Zira and Cornelius."
>
> It was Taylor's beleaguered situation at the Tribunal that prompted
> Cornelius to state his belief that Taylor was not from another

planet

> (as Taylor claimed), but that he had to have come from somewhere in

the

> Forbidden Zone, and he backs up his beliefs by stating that Taylor
> described the Forbidden Zone accurately -- something which could

only be

> known by somebody who had been there, despite the fact that it

was "an

> ancient taboo" for any ape to venture there.
>
> That's why the President of the Academy reacts with stunned

amazement:

> "You visited the Forbidden Zone?!" If it had been known by one and

all

> that Cornelius had made such a trip, then there's no reason at all

for

> this President to be so surprised by it. But the fact is, he WAS
> surprised by it! That's why James Whitmore spoke his line the way he
> did!
>
> Zaius tells Taylor, "Our eastern desert has never been explored

because

> we've always assumed that life cannot exist there. Taylor... save
> yourself! Tell me: is there another jungle beyond the Forbidden

Zone?"

>
> Zaius informs Taylor -- and us -- that the Forbidden Zone "has never
> been explored"... period! Of course, he is not including the

unwarranted

> and illegal expedition that Cornelius mounted under the guise of an
> expedition to some allowed, permitted, place. Cornelius had EXCEEDED
> that permit's orders and gone into the Forbidden Zone. Zaius doesn't
> know that there is another jungle beyond the Forbidden Zone, though

he

> suspects that there is... because the Zone hadn't been officially
> explored -- he uses the word "never".
>
> Ursus tells the Citizens' Council that "the Forbidden Zone has been
> closed for centuries, and rightfully so." The Zone had not

only "never

> been explored" (save by Cornelius, illegally), but had been CLOSED.

Its

> very name says it all: it's the FORBIDDEN Zone. It is FORBIDDEN to
> travel there. In all Ape History nobody has ever gone there with the
> exception of religious APOSTATES: "Only an apostate would flee to

the

> Forbidden Zone!" says Zaius to Cornelius. And WHY??? Because no
> law-abiding Ape would dare FOLLOW an apostate into an area declared
> off-limits by the Lawgiver! Zaius and his band of gorillas,

however, are

> an exception to this -- because they KNOW that their religion is

based

> on the lie that Apes have always ruled the world, in God's Image,

blah

> blah blah. Zaius goes after Cornelius and Zira to their Diggings

site

> because he is the "Guardian of the Terrible Secret", and the

Gorillas

> are there to enforce this, under Zaius' authority.
>
> Yet, Chris & James (& whoever else at the POTA group) want to

believe

> that Cornelius somehow could've acquired official permission to

travel

> into the Forbidden Zone. Despite these crucial lines of dialogue

I've

> quoted above.
>
> Well, they're free to think whatever the hell they want to think

about

> that prior expedition of Cornelius'... but I reserve the right to
> counter that suggestion with the plain facts in the dialogue from

the

> films.
>
> I submit that all that talk about Travel Permits doesn't make any

sense

> whatsoever unless we deduce that Cornelius ABUSED the privilege,
> traveling to a place outside the bounds of what the Academy deemed
> permissible. The Travel Permit gave Cornelius the official sanction

to

> travel within the NON-FORBIDDEN areas (all that stuff on the LEFT

side

> of his map's dashed line). But he did not and could not have gotten
> permission to stage a huge expedition into a FORBIDDEN territory...

a

> region which had "never been explored" and had been "closed for
> centuries"... all that stuff on the RIGHT side of the map's dashed

line.

> Cornelius only very reluctantly admitted to the Tribunal that he had
> actually been there ["for... I have been there"], in an attempt to
> explain the presence of Taylor, by finally growing the 'stones' to

stand

> up for his Theory of Evolution, a theory which "half the Academy"

had

> said was Heresy. Just as Zaius hoped he'd do.
>
> When Lucius busts Taylor out of his cage, they (with Nova) accompany
> Zira to a rendezvous point where they meet up with Cornelius... and

from

> there they travel "back to the diggings I worked at over a year

ago."

> They must know that Zaius will have the Police hot on their

trail... so

> you'd think that they would go back to those Diggings at a rapid

pace,

> wouldn't you?
>
> But no! Cornelius knows where his Cave site is, but Zaius doesn't!
> That's why Cornelius, Zira, Taylor, Lucius and Nova are able to make
> that 3-day journey at a leisurely pace. They could probably get

there a

> hell of a lot quicker -- probably in a single day -- if they

galloped

> there. But they proceed at a rather slow pace. Don't take my word

for

> it: Watch the damned scenes showing their journey from the

Rendezvous to

> the Cave! They take their blessed time, moseying along at a pace

that

> somebody on foot could match!
>
> If Zaius knew where that Cave site was, he could've easily gotten

there

> BEFORE those fleeing chimps and humans -- all by going at a gallop,
> beating them to the punch. In order to get to Cornelius' illicit
> archaeological site, Zaius and his troops had to "pick up [their]

trail"

> and follow after them. Because Cornelius, when he admitted (finally)
> that he'd been to the Forbidden Zone and discovered his evidence

there,

> never told the Tribunal WHERE in the Forbidden Zone that artifact-

laden

> site was located. Therefore, Zaius didn't and couldn't know where it
> was.
>
> I'll wrap this up now. Just as Ty's REVOLUTION comic -- as welcome

and

> entertaining as it was -- is incompatible with the established

movies,

> due to the impossibility of Caesar having had foreknowledge of

Doomsday

> during the events of CONQUEST (which would invalidate BATTLE, where

it

> is MacDonald, the former Archivist, who informs him about the

presence

> of the taped testimony of his Ape-onaut parents, proving wrong the
> notion championed by Virgil, that Time has no end, etc etc)... just

as

> that comic's scenario cannot fit in with the "canon" of the film

series,

> so too does this supposed Cornelius Journal not fit in with the
> established facts given in PLANET and BENEATH. And, sadly, it

evinces a

> profound misunderstanding of the backstory that Serling and Wilson

set

> up when the final version of the script was filmed. Taylor's hearing
> before that Tribunal was not convened to deal so much with Taylor

(as

> Zaius says, Taylor's "case was pre-ordained")... it was an elaborate
> effort to "expose Zira and Cornelius" -- to prompt them to supply

the

> rope with which they would proceed to hang themselves. Taylor's
> existence was used by Zaius (et al.) as a weapon to use against

those

> two, to punish them for their "scientific heresy".
>
> The "scarecrows" weren't put up to scare humans away from the

cornfield.

> They were there to scare Apes away from the Forbidden Zone. Right

after

> the scene at the Rendezvous, we are treated to a shot of those very
> "scarecrows" situated along the border of the Forbidden Zone, past

which

> the caravan of horses, chimps, and humans go. The Apes know where

the

> NON-forbidden areas end and the FORBIDDEN zone begins because those
> "scarecrows" are the markers indicating this! They were put up in

order

> to CLOSE OFF the Forbidden Zone, to scare the bejeezus out of any

Ape

> who may think of venturing out there. When the Mutants create the
> illusion of a desert field full of crucified gorillas, they use that
> scare-tactic against the Ape Army -- reminding them that they have
> violated their own "taboo" and gone where they were FORBIDDEN by

their

> Lawgiver to go... that's why the image of the Lawgiver statue is
> included in that illusion. The Mutants were trying to tell that Ape

Army

> to GO THE HELL BACK TO APE CITY, to respect the wishes of their own
> Lawgiver who forbade them from going into that desert in the first
> place.
>
> The Quota System may have been abolished, but the chimps didn't have
> (and never acquired) the authority to bypass the dictates of "the
> State"... and Zaius is "the State" personified. He's (as Cornelius

first

> refers to him) "Number One." The Chief Defender of the Faith. And

that

> "faith" -- that religious belief system -- is intimately tied up

with

> this whole business of a "zone" of territory being declared

FORBIDDEN...

> with travel being not a Right but a Privilege requiring the

acquisition

> of a TRAVEL PERMIT by the State. The notion that Cornelius' former
> expedition to the Forbidden Zone had official sanction is just
> ludicrous.
>
> Patrick
>