----- Original Message -----
From:
mwhitty
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 2:59
AM
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Re: What
footage?





You know that could
make an interesting short story Mike….




------------------------------------------------------------


From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
[PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mlccougar@...
Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2007 2:16
PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: What
footage?




In a message dated 8/11/2007
9:47:03 PM Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@...
writes:



*** Is this on-the-level,
Cougar, or are ya just makin' this up??? I've never heard of an
"alternate
ending" version of "THE TRAP"
with Zako being killed by the ape authorities. Is there a script
with this
ending in it? Would they have filmed such an ending if there were
no script
calling for it? If this alternative ending does exist, can you make
an mpeg
of it and post clips? Either here or, perhaps, at Hunter's site? If
this is
the real thing, I (for one) want to see
it!


*** Patrick, it is 100%
made up, although I have always wanted to see a continuation of that
story...
Perhaps even having Zako put on trial for disobeying Urko. (After
all, the
authorities would KNOW he didn;t kill them as he was
ordered...)

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "eltf177" <eltf177@...> wrote:
--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, TZer0@ wrote:

In a message dated 8/11/2007 10:29:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  DrZaiusDavis@ writes:

Well my friend, you and Patrick are gonna get along great. ;)


I dunno... Those guys never get along.

I have yet to have a conversation with him, but he seems to be a
hard-core fan. New theories are always welcome with me!

*** That's good to hear! But I think that what DrZaiusDavis is getting at is that if there are details in somebody's scenario which don't jibe with what has already been established on-screen, then it's gonna get pointed out. For instance, in the recent comic book Revolution on the Planet of the Apes, they present Caesar -- in the aftermath of the events of Conquest -- indicating that he already knows that the world will be destroyed, describing these dreams or visions in his journal. I posted a critique of this notion here at the POTADG, reminding the writer of that comic book that it wasn't until the events of Battle that Caesar was made aware of the ultimate fate of the planet Earth -- indeed, that he had long been mistaken about the Earth having acquired a happier unending fate due to the Apes being in control rather than Mankind; it took a trip to the bombed city's Archives, so that Caesar could hear about the world's demise through the recordings of his dead parents, to get him to realize that the world's days are numbered. Although I enjoyed Revolution for what it was, I don't see how it is possible for it to be included in any "canon" of POTA along with the 5-movie series. And... I was a bit underwhelmed by the way it ended. I'm glad they made the comic, and I'd like to see them make more comics set in the Planet of the Apes universe... but I can't consider them part of the "canon".

My own POTA scenario has been developed, in part, to weld all of the filmed POTA stories (prior, that is, to the Burton "re-imagining" -- which ain't part of the canon as far as I'm concerned) so that they all tell one long saga. This involves reconciling what appear -- at first glance -- to be "mistakes"... such as Arno having a dog (in Escape From Tomorrow), the astronauts having their ship's chronometer read 8-19-1980 in the opening credits -- a date after the appearance of the Ape-onauts in 1973, which they seem ignorant of, etc etc. My POTA project, a humongous novel-in-progress which I'm titling Destiny of the Planet of the Apes , is to be a novelization (or re-novelization in the case of Beneath-through-Battle and of 8 of the 14 TV episodes) of all 5 films and all 14 episodes, with supplementary elements original with me to tie it all together. About a third of the completed novel will be original stuff I've added.

And, to my satisfaction anyway, I've found ways to explain Arno's dog... all of the SHIP-TIME and EARTH-TIME chronometer information seen in the films and episodes... the presence of talking apes in the 20th Century even before the arrival of the Ape-onauts [i.e. Mandemus, Lisa, Virgil, etc]... and most of the "mistakes" of the POTA saga can thus be turned into relevant "non-mistake" details.

Except for the already-blown hatch of Taylor's spacecraft. Damn! It would take a bit of CGI doctoring to tweak that shot so as to make it no longer a flub. Ah well...

Patrick

I've completed plotting it out. I know who is where at what time and what they're doing, but I haven't hammered out the text of it yet.

I've already given away some of that plot before, indicating that:

1) After the events of The Surgeon, Virdon -- having just barely avoided dying by gunshot -- will lead his fellow fugitives to the site where ANSA built and test-flew their vehicles back in the late 1960s/early 1970s... a site which he knows how to find now that he knows where certain known landmarks are (i.e. San Francisco & Oakland, etc).

2) The lone survivor of the previous crashed spaceship (mentioned by Zaius and Urko in Escape From Tomorrow ) had been spending almost all of the last 10 years at that ANSA site, working with re-activated industrial robots to build flyable ANSA spaceships with Hasslein-devised hyperdrives. It was from this very ANSA facility (in Nevada) where this person used a transceiver to establish remote control over Virdon's ship when it popped out of hyperspace in Earth's gravity well on 3-21-3085... so that he could bring the ship down to its safe landing near Chalo, the astronauts aboard it having been either dead (Jones) or unconscious (Virdon and Burke).

3) Prior to landing back on Earth, that lone survivor -- from a 26th Century voyage affiliated with a New America country built in the aftermath of the Nuclear War by the Scientist-group who left the Vaults like the one we saw in The Legacy -- had first planted a Doomsday Bomb on the lunar farside, capable of being remotely triggered.

4) After Virdon's group reaches the ANSA facility and encounters this person (whom I've named Vaughn Newman : see prior posts about him), after certain preliminaries Virdon has Vaughn run the Magnetic Disc through one of the ANSA computers -- as he had been hoping he'd be able to do, one day -- and they all learn the complete telemetry of that voyage to Alpha Centauri, including the fact that the ship had been trapped in a timewarp there from August 19, 1980 until July 14, 3085... a total of 403,557 days of EARTH-TIME... and then, when Jones activated the Emergency Homing Device -- with Virdon kicking in more power to the hyperdrive engine -- the ship made a jump through hyperspace from Alpha Centauri (on 14 July 3085) back "home" to Earth... where it popped out of hyperspace on 21 March 3085. In other words, after travelling forwards through Time [EARTH-TIME] a total of 403,557 days, the ship hyperspatially jumped backwards in Time some 115 days.

5) The Earth and its Solar System -- in my novel's scenario -- had long been quarantined by the other intelligent races of the Galaxy, made an off-limits system for other Beings to visit, and enforced by a Galactic Security force. Spaceships warping along at velocities less than Warp One, however -- especially at speeds close to Warp Zero -- are indetectable by those Galactic Security sentries... which is why Virdon's Alpha Centauri mission and the Orion Mission were able to breach the quarantine zone: their "warp signatures" were indistinguishable from background cosmic rays. It's only when a warping ship goes at an end velocity which is faster than light that it betrays its position -- so that interstellar dust and hydrogen atoms, bouncing off the FTL warpfield, become Cerenkov-type radiation, a sort of photonic boom effect.

6) Thus, the flight of Virdon's ship from Alpha Centauri to Earth seems, to an outside observer, to have been a flight of a warpship from Earth [March 21] to Alpha Centauri [July 14], a total of 4.34 lightyears or 1,585 lightdays. Divide that by the 115 days of Earth-Time and you get an end velocity measured as 13.78 times the speed of light -- a velocity noticable by the Galactic Security forces. They go to Alpha Centauri and, of course, don't find anything -- since the voyage of Virdon's ship was actually backwards through Time. So, the Galactic Security team goes to the other end of that warp trajectory... to Earth.

7) Vaughn Newman, who has a long-term plan to save Humanity, has planned for this moment, when he knows that the Galactic Security forces will arrive at Earth to deal with the presence of a quarantine-violating warpship. When they de-warp in the Earth-Moon system, they become aware of the presence of a transponder at the lunar farside site where Vaughn had planted a Doomsday Bomb...

8) And BOOM ! Without giving them a chance to send out a "Danger" signal to the other Galactic Security forces, Vaughn detonates that Doomsday Bomb... which, being triggered below the lunar surface, ends up destroying the entire Moon by turning it into a Black Hole . The implosion created by the Doomsday Bomb -- a cluster of nukes surrounding a compressible Core -- causes the density of that Core to skyrocket higher than the threshold density of neutronium: it cannot help but become a Singularity. And, before Hawking Radiation can cause that mini-mass Black Hole to explode, it falls towards the lunar center and every bit of mass it encounters is sucked below the ever-growing Event Horizon... countering the tendency of the Black Hole to evaporate due to Hawking Radiation until it has too much mass to explode away. Eventually, the entire mass of the Moon is sucked below the Event Horizon... and, as a Black Hole, this "Darkmoon" continues its orbit of the planet Earth, no longer being able to eclipse the Sun since its mass is concentrated in a spinning singularity sheathed by a spinning Event Horizon... just like the Black Hole in the Alpha Centauri system which had once been an inhabited planet, long ago, before it had been destroyed by a Doomsday Bomb.

9) Having examined the telemetry of Virdon's ship from that Magnetic Disk, Vaughn and the trio of fugitives now know that going on a warp-trajectory through a Black Hole's singularity enables a spaceship to jump through hyperspace backwards through Time. Virdon, who yearns to return to "his time" -- to the late 20th Century -- takes one of the newly-constructed ANSA vessels Vaughn had been working on... and makes the appropriate maneuvers towards (and through) the Black Hole now orbiting the Earth... disappearing into the Past.

10) Burke and Galen, in the ANSA facility with Vaughn, then learn more about the Earth's Past... as well as the role that an older Alan Virdon played in the events leading up to the Nuclear War. Virdon had returned to the Past all right... de-warping (unexpectedly) in the year 1983. It was Virdon who turned out to be the astronaut who brought back with him from Outer Space the plague virus that killed off all the dogs and cats. The virus itself was created by Vaughn Newman -- and tested on test-animals he had genetically reintroduced (like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park); there were some dogs and cats which were given immunity to this virus, too... including the dog which Arno would eventually own. Vaughn, a man whose Mind had become trapped in a humaniform robot's synthetic cyber-brain during the events of the Nuclear War of 2006, knew that Virdon -- the astronaut "Typhoid Alan" from the Future, from 3085 -- had to become infected with this genetically-engineered retrovirus in the year 3085... it had to happen, in order to fulfill Causality. So he -- Vaughn Newman -- took it upon himself to help fulfill Causality... by creating that virus and ensuring that Virdon would be infected with it, and that he would then be sent backwards through Time, to infect the Dogs and Cats of 1983.

11) Vaughn reveals the same Archival information regarding the Ape-onauts that Caesar saw [in Battle ] to Burke and Galen, including the vital knowledge that those Apes had seen from orbit the destruction of the planet Earth in the year 3955, the year when the Orion Mission would return to Earth after having arrived at its destination on the date 11-25-3978. Vaughn believes that the destruction of the Earth is inevitable -- the time-traveling Ape-onauts have made it a matter of Causality. But Burke wants to prevent Doomsday, if he can, Causality be damned... and Galen wants to go with him. Into the Future. Timewarping in the presence of the Darkmoon black hole the same way that Virdon's ship had been stuck in a timewarp from 1980 until 3085.

12) Vaughn will prepare an ANSA ship for Burke and Galen to use to make their close approach to the Darkmoon... to utilize its higher intensity gravitational field (close to the Event Horizon) in order to achieve Time Dilation, to propel them from 3085 towards the date 3955 -- preferably sooner, to give them time to find the Doomsday Bomb and dismantle it before it can be triggered on 9-11-3955 [which they don't know will be by Taylor himself].

13) But Vaughn has surreptitiously acquired a sample of Galen's DNA (from a stray hair after shaking his hand)... and he knows something about Galen that necessitates his arrival in the 40th Century a generation prior to the events of PLANET and BENEATH . Because Vaughn had also managed -- years before -- to acquire DNA samples of the murdered Ape-onauts. There is a reason that Galen looks and sounds so much like Cornelius...

14) Burke and Galen time-travel forwards through Time... unintentionally de-warping in the year 3913 . After docking with the L5 science station -- the smallest part at its center having been where Vaughn Newman's "career" as a human Mind trapped in a robotic Brain had begun in 2006 -- Burke and Galen realize that Vaughn had intended for them to arrive 42 years before Doomsday. They know that in the time of Zira and Cornelius the status of Mankind will have deteriorated... so that Man is no longer a slave whose presence among Apes is tolerated, but that Man has been reduced to that of a savage, used for target practice by the gorillas and as experimental lab animals by the chimpanzee scientists.

15) Burke wouldn't last long in such an environment... but Galen would . Using various tech-devices in that orbiting L5 science station, Burke rigs up Galen with a small, unobtrusive device which allows them to communicate verbally with each other, and which records and transmits audio-visual information wirelessly from Galen -- who will go down to the Earth's surface -- up to Burke, who will remain safe in the L5 station. As long as Galen is at a place on the Earth's surface in line-of-sight of the L5 station, they can communicate -- meaning that they'll be out of communication roughly half of the time, when Galen's on the other side of the rotating planet.

16) After first investigating the Central City region -- and finding that the Ape civilization had abandoned it after the hardcore race war which erupted after 3085 -- Galen follows various clues to the destination where Zaius (or his successor) had led the Apes... across the continent to the vicinity of Pennsylvania/New Jersey/New York.

17) Eventually, Galen reaches the Ape City region and makes the acquaintance of a descendant of his cousin Augustus... a chimpanzee couple who have a son named Milo. He also meets an attractive female chimp who just happens to have the same name as the girl he left behind: Kira. And he falls in love again... this time being willing to follow through. He gets married to her and, a year later, she gives birth to a son whom she wants to name after her father: Cornelius. It is this genetic relationship which convinced Vaughn Newman that Galen had to time-travel forwards... so that he could beget the Ape-onaut who was named Cornelius , who otherwise wouldn't have been begotten.

18) As Galen has abandoned his "mission" to help Burke to save the world from the Doomsday Bomb's detonation -- reluctantly smashing the audio-visual device that Burke had rigged for him -- Galen seeks to change Ape society in a way which will prevent Doomsday... and it involves attempting to reveal the truth about the Past, which (of course) is deemed heretical by the current Chief Defender of the Faith...

19) Burke, up in the L5 station, has no way of going down to the planet... no way of risking his own life on a personal search for the Doomsday Bomb, now that Galen has abandoned their remote-partnership. But he does have one option: to use a hibernaculum on that L5 station to go into an artificially-induced "long sleep" for a few decades... so that the Orion Mission, when it arrives, will find him...

Thus, the final fates of the TV protagonists will be played out against the same backdrop as the first 2 movies. In my scenario, anyway. My "last" TV episode will conclude the 2nd (of 3) parts of my novel, and the adventures of Burke and Galen in 3913 and beyond will commence the final 3rd of the book. A sensor on the L5 station will detect the de-warping energy pulse of the Orion Mission mothership, and Burke will awaken from his "long sleep" at about the same time that Taylor awakens from his hibernation...

Patrick

____________________________________________________________________

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@...> wrote:
Very interesting approach Patrick.

Have you completed "Escape to Yesterday"?

Michael
_____

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton Sent: Monday, 13 August 2007 1:16 AM To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PotaDG] Re: What footage?

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, mlccougar@ wrote:

In a message dated 8/11/2007 9:47:03 PM Central Daylight Time, patrickmichaeltilton@ writes:

Incidentally, one of the reasons that I've put the TV episodes into a different order than the air-date order is due to the fact that Urko is injured at the end of The Trap. In order to address continuity matters (i.e. Burke wearing a "vest"-type garment in some but not all of the episodes, etc), I put them into the following order:

1 ESCAPE FROM TOMORROW

2 THE GOOD SEEDS

3 THE LEGACY

4 THE GLADIATORS

5 THE TRAP

6 TOMORROW'S TIDE

7 THE DECEPTION

8 THE LIBERATOR

9 THE CURE

10 UP ABOVE THE WORLD SO HIGH

11 THE TYRANT

12 THE HORSE RACE
 
13 THE INTERROGATION

14 THE SURGEON

15 ESCAPE TO YESTERDAY

I'm about 150 pages into a fantastic book titled The World Without Us , by Alan Weisman. A recent issue of Scientific American did an article on this. It is, beyond doubt, one of the most well-researched and fascinating books I've ever encountered.

The author imagines what would happen if the human race were to vanish off the face of the Earth: What would happen to the world? To the cities we leave behind? To the environment? Even with the human race gone, what will be the long-lasting imprint on the environment of our billions of tons of plastics and indegradable polymers that are polluting the world (especially the oceans, affecting the food chain in ways I hadn't imagined)...?

I'm barely halfway through the book, and I can already see some of the implications of his idea -- especially as it relates to the PLANET OF THE APES scenario. For, even if only most of the human race disappears... leaving pathetic remnant populations to eke out a precarious existence in the remains of a world devastated by Nuclear War and the consequent environmental (catastrophic) changes that would ensue... the globe will have been effectively depopulated of Mankind.

I'm trying to imagine Weisman's scenario, but added to it the notion that a Global Thermonuclear War had participated in wiping out Mankind's civilization. Weisman imagines Nature reclaiming lands that have seemingly been thoroughly urbanized, including New York City. But in a world without Man, the city of New York would gradually, drastically change. Water would flood into the sublevels and erode the foundations of the mighty skyscrapers. Seasonal freeze/thaw cycles would eventually cause cement to split. The longest-lived buildings will prove to be some of the oldest ones, such as Grand Central Terminal, made of heavy quarried stone. Steel buildings will not last as long, rusting away gradually over the course of centuries unmaintained by people.

On page 37 Weisman says this: "Corrosion has thickened the patina on bronze statues, but hasn't affected their shapes. "That's why we know about the Bronze Age," notes Manhattan art conservator Barbara Appelbaum. Even if the Statue of Liberty ends up at the bottom of the harbor, Appelbaum says, its form will remain intact indefinitely, albeit somewhat chemically altered and possibly encased in barnacles. That might be the safest place for it, because at some point thousands of years hence, any stone walls still standing -- maybe chunks of St. Paul's Chapel across from the World Trade Center, built in 1766 from Manhattan's own hard schist -- must finally fall."

I wish somebody with Weisman's encyclopedic knowledge would write a similar book, imagining a world devastated by a Global Thermonuclear War. As often as it has been imagined in fiction, I doubt if anybody really knows how awful such a catastrophe would truly be. Some of the nastier implications of Weisman's post-human world must be incorporated into my post-Nuke scenario for the Planet of the Apes.

This is a must-read book, folks. Get a copy of The World Without Us and read it... and prepare to be wowed!

Patrick

>
>
> I'm about 150 pages into a fantastic book titled The World Without

> by Alan Weisman. A recent issue of Scientific American did an

> this. It is, beyond doubt, one of the most well-researched and
> fascinating books I've ever encountered.
>
> The author imagines what would happen if the human race were to

> off the face of the Earth: What would happen to the world? To the

> we leave behind? To the environment? Even with the human race

> will be the long-lasting imprint on the environment of our

> tons of plastics and indegradable polymers that are polluting the

> (especially the oceans, affecting the food chain in ways I hadn't
> imagined)...?
>
> I'm barely halfway through the book, and I can already see some of

> implications of his idea -- especially as it relates to the PLANET

> THE APES scenario. For, even if only most of the human race
> disappears... leaving pathetic remnant populations to eke out a
> precarious existence in the remains of a world devastated by

> and the consequent environmental (catastrophic) changes that would
> ensue... the globe will have been effectively depopulated of

>
> I'm trying to imagine Weisman's scenario, but added to it the

> that a Global Thermonuclear War had participated in wiping out

> civilization. Weisman imagines Nature reclaiming lands that have
> seemingly been thoroughly urbanized, including New York City. But

> world without Man, the city of New York would gradually,

> change. Water would flood into the sublevels and erode the

> of the mighty skyscrapers. Seasonal freeze/thaw cycles would

> cause cement to split. The longest-lived buildings will prove to

> of the oldest ones, such as Grand Central Terminal, made of heavy
> quarried stone. Steel buildings will not last as long, rusting away
> gradually over the course of centuries unmaintained by people.
>
> On page 37 Weisman says this: "Corrosion has thickened the patina

> bronze statues, but hasn't affected their shapes. "That's why we

> about the Bronze Age," notes Manhattan art conservator Barbara
> Appelbaum. Even if the Statue of Liberty ends up at the bottom of

> harbor, Appelbaum says, its form will remain intact indefinitely,

> somewhat chemically altered and possibly encased in barnacles. That
> might be the safest place for it, because at some point thousands

> years hence, any stone walls still standing -- maybe chunks of St.
> Paul's Chapel across from the World Trade Center, built in 1766

> Manhattan's own hard schist -- must finally fall."
>
> I wish somebody with Weisman's encyclopedic knowledge would write a
> similar book, imagining a world devastated by a Global

> War. As often as it has been imagined in fiction, I doubt if

> really knows how awful such a catastrophe would truly be. Some of

> nastier implications of Weisman's post-human world must be

> into my post-Nuke scenario for the Planet of the Apes.
>
> This is a must-read book, folks. Get a copy of The World Without

> read it... and prepare to be wowed!
>
> Patrick
>

> Found this pic. I have no idea where Brunswick
> Street, Fitzroy, is.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/dogmatic/1065270177/
>
> Melinda
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@...>
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 12:24 pm
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Picture Link

> that's a cool pic! It's probably in the UK
>
>
> Tim
>
> --- Melinda G Kettler <mgkettler@...> wrote:
>
> > Found this pic. I have no idea where Brunswick
> > Street, Fitzroy, is.
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/dogmatic/1065270177/
> >
> > Melinda
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Melinda G Kettler <mgkettler@...>
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 1:44 pm
Subject: [PotaDG] Back From Star Trek Convention

> Hey y'all! I'm back from the Star Trek Convention in Vegas, and
> believe it
> or not, I DID find something that was POTA related! They had a
> large area
> in the dealers' room where different guests were signing
> autographs. Most
> of the guests there had small guest starring roles in the original
> Star Trek
> episodes. Well, I was walking around and came across a small
> midget of a
> man named Felix Silla. He had all these pictures of the various
> roles he
> has played, and he had a pic of himself as an ape, and I asked him
> about it.
> I'm not good about knowing the names of secondary characters,
> especially
> when they have all the ape makeup on, but he played the little ape
> that sees
> Taylor sneaking around when that memorial service is going on and
> says,
> "It's a man!" I was flipping out to find somebody that had been
> in the
> original POTA movie! So, I had to get the pic and autograph so I
> could
> bring it back to share with y'all. I've attached it here. In a
> couple of
> days, when I've downloaded my own pics, I'll post the picture of
> Felix I
> took, as he looks today. Feel free to put either pic in the files
> section.
> Melinda :-)
>
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PotaDG/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

> Well, some of the stuff Heston says is funny and
> you're supposed to laugh. Sometimes they laugh at
> his "over the top" performance, which doesn't mean
> they don't like it. It's better than monotone
> Wahlberg. But they did applaud when he said his
> "damn dirty ape" line. That always gets applause.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haristas@...
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com ; pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 10:37 AM
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: POTA Double Feature
>
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2007 12:48:46 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, veetus@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> I don't see any other review of this so I might
> as well, in the words of the oppressive humans,
> "TALK!".
>
>
> Yeah, where are the others reporting in.
>
> Anyway, sounds like it was a pretty good showing.
> Heston is pretty easy to laugh at. I remember
> people even laughed in '68. I think they were
> supposed to. Glad to hear Bill Creber is still
> talking about APES. I've been watching the DVDs of
> the old
> "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" TV show and he
> was art director on a lot of those, so I'd have
> asked him about that too.
>
> Anyway, I wish I could have been there, but I
> couldn't. I think there's a revival theatre in New
> Jersey that may show the APES films next year for
> the 40th Anniversary. THAT I will try to get to.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
> **************************************
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
>

----- Original Message -----

From: Tim "apefan"

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 1:32 PM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: POTA Double Feature

Another thought I had watching Beneath..... which I've
noticed before....

Anyone have any thoughts as to why Albina did not '
reveal her in most self unto her god " like Ongaro,
when she offed her self? Surely she would have had
time if she drank poison.....

--- "Jeff K." <veetus@earthlink. net> wrote:

> Well, some of the stuff Heston says is funny and
> you're supposed to laugh. Sometimes they laugh at
> his "over the top" performance, which doesn't mean
> they don't like it. It's better than monotone
> Wahlberg. But they did applaud when he said his
> "damn dirty ape" line. That always gets applause.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Haristas@aol. com
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ; pota@yahoogroups. com
> Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 10:37 AM
> Subject: [PotaDG] Re: POTA Double Feature
>
>
> In a message dated 8/11/2007 12:48:46 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, veetus@earthlink. net writes:
>
>
>
>
> I don't see any other review of this so I might
> as well, in the words of the oppressive humans,
> "TALK!".
>
>
> Yeah, where are the others reporting in.
>
> Anyway, sounds like it was a pretty good showing.
> Heston is pretty easy to laugh at. I remember
> people even laughed in '68. I think they were
> supposed to. Glad to hear Bill Creber is still
> talking about APES. I've been watching the DVDs of
> the old
> "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" TV show and he
> was art director on a lot of those, so I'd have
> asked him about that too.
>
> Anyway, I wish I could have been there, but I
> couldn't. I think there's a revival theatre in New
> Jersey that may show the APES films next year for
> the 40th Anniversary. THAT I will try to get to.
>
> -- Rory
>
>
> ************ ********* ********* ********
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover. aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour
>
>

____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
http://farechase. yahoo.com/

----- Original Message -----

From: Melinda G Kettler

To: friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com ; PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Cc: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:44 AM

Subject: [PotaDG] Back From Star Trek Convention

Hey y'all! I'm back from the Star Trek Convention in Vegas, and believe it
or not, I DID find something that was POTA related! They had a large area
in the dealers' room where different guests were signing autographs. Most
of the guests there had small guest starring roles in the original Star Trek
episodes. Well, I was walking around and came across a small midget of a
man named Felix Silla. He had all these pictures of the various roles he
has played, and he had a pic of himself as an ape, and I asked him about it.
I'm not good about knowing the names of secondary characters, especially
when they have all the ape makeup on, but he played the little ape that sees
Taylor sneaking around when that memorial service is going on and says,
"It's a man!" I was flipping out to find somebody that had been in the
original POTA movie! So, I had to get the pic and autograph so I could
bring it back to share with y'all. I've attached it here. In a couple of
days, when I've downloaded my own pics, I'll post the picture of Felix I
took, as he looks today. Feel free to put either pic in the files section.

Melinda :-)

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@...> wrote:
>
>He's still recovering from the Black Sabbath (with Dio) concert we
saw last
> night so be patient! :-)
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
> Melinda G Kettler
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 August 2007 3:44 AM
> To: friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com; PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Cc: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Back From Star Trek Convention
>
>
>
> Hey y'all! I'm back from the Star Trek Convention in Vegas, and
believe it
> or not, I DID find something that was POTA related! They had a
large area
> in the dealers' room where different guests were signing
autographs. Most
> of the guests there had small guest starring roles in the original
Star Trek
>
> episodes. Well, I was walking around and came across a small midget
of a
> man named Felix Silla. He had all these pictures of the various
roles he
> has played, and he had a pic of himself as an ape, and I asked him
about it.
>
> I'm not good about knowing the names of secondary characters,
especially
> when they have all the ape makeup on, but he played the little ape
that sees
>
> Taylor sneaking around when that memorial service is going on and
says,
> "It's a man!" I was flipping out to find somebody that had been in
the
> original POTA movie! So, I had to get the pic and autograph so I
could
> bring it back to share with y'all. I've attached it here. In a
couple of
> days, when I've downloaded my own pics, I'll post the picture of
Felix I
> took, as he looks today. Feel free to put either pic in the files
section.
>
> Melinda :-)
>

----- Original Message -----
From: mwhitty <mwhitty@...>
Date: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:59 pm
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Back From Star Trek Convention

> You are a sick individual Jeff. :-)
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of
> Jeff K.
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 August 2007 11:40 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Back From Star Trek Convention
>
>
>
> I gave him a lift home one time
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Melinda G Kettler <mailto:mgkettler@...>
>
> To: friends_and_ <mailto:friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com>
> fugitives@yahoogroups.com ; PotaDG@yahoogroups.
> <mailto:PotaDG@yahoogroups.com> com
>
> Cc: pota@yahoogroups. <mailto:pota@yahoogroups.com> com
>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:44 AM
>
> Subject: [PotaDG] Back From Star Trek Convention
>
>
>
> Hey y'all! I'm back from the Star Trek Convention in Vegas, and
> believe it
> or not, I DID find something that was POTA related! They had a
> large area
> in the dealers' room where different guests were signing
> autographs. Most
> of the guests there had small guest starring roles in the original
> Star Trek
>
> episodes. Well, I was walking around and came across a small
> midget of a
> man named Felix Silla. He had all these pictures of the various
> roles he
> has played, and he had a pic of himself as an ape, and I asked him
> about it.
>
> I'm not good about knowing the names of secondary characters,
> especially
> when they have all the ape makeup on, but he played the little ape
> that sees
>
> Taylor sneaking around when that memorial service is going on and
> says,
> "It's a man!" I was flipping out to find somebody that had been in
> the
> original POTA movie! So, I had to get the pic and autograph so I
> could
> bring it back to share with y'all. I've attached it here. In a
> couple of
> days, when I've downloaded my own pics, I'll post the picture of
> Felix I
> took, as he looks today. Feel free to put either pic in the files
> section.
> Melinda :-)
>
>

> Yes, but will you be able to READ them if and whnen
> you do get the originals?
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/13/2007 10:29:17 PM Central
> Daylight Time,
> apefan23@... writes:
>
>

> >
> > I chose not to get those as I hope to get the real
> > ones some day...
> >
> >
> > --- mwhitty <mwhitty@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Argentinean comics.
>
> <BR><BR>**************************************<BR>
> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour</HTML>
>

> It's because they didn't have the budget for more
> make-up FX! ;)
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 August 2007 6:32 AM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: POTA Double Feature
>
>
>
> Another thought I had watching Beneath.....which
> I've
> noticed before....
>
> Anyone have any thoughts as to why Albina did not '
> reveal her in most self unto her god " like Ongaro,
> when she offed her self? Surely she would have had
> time if she drank poison.....
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@...> wrote:

Another thought I had watching Beneath.....which I've noticed before....

Anyone have any thoughts as to why Albina did not " reveal her in most self unto her god " like Ongaro, when she offed her self? Surely she would have had time if she drank poison.....
_____________________________________________________________________

*** Good question! Let me have a crack at it.

In my scenario, the Mutants acquired their religion when Mendez I (i.e. the guy played by Paul Stevens in BATTLE ) used his telepathic abilities to tweak the minds of the wretches who were still around after the dismal defeat of Kolp and the others who sought war as a solution to their problems. Being a man dedicated to "peace," Mendez had actually encouraged Kolp and his fighting force to leave their city in order to attack the Apes, because the thoughts of hateful people irritate him in a way that's analogous to a bad smell.

Mendez, in order to prevent Alma from detonating the Doomsday Bomb, uses his telepathic abilities to encourage her -- and the others there -- to "venerate" the Bomb, because the radioactivity which taints them came from the explosion of a similar device. They are "marked" by it. At this point, Mendez does not -- himself -- worship the Bomb, but he encourages the others there to treat the thing with veneration and awe... because of what that thing is capable of doing.

And, who knows? Perhaps Mendez has already -- by this time -- gone to the Archives and rewound the videotape which Caesar, Virgil and MacDonald had already seen. With Kolp and his army on their way to Ape City, knowing that it would take time for him to arrive there and attack it... and either achieve victory or be defeated... Mendez would have time to leave Alma alone in the old Ape Management complex where the Bomb is. She won't have the opportunity to carry out Kolp's last orders until she receives the prearranged signal.

So... Mendez may very well have seen the Tape... and may already know that Caesar's parents had seen from orbit the effect caused by the Doomsday Bomb, the "bright white blinding light" which causes the Earth's destruction [in "Thirty-Nine... Fifty--"]. Mendez knows that only a Doomsday Bomb is capable of annihilating the entire planet.

But he has no way of knowing that a telepathic descendant of himself -- Mendez XXVI -- was in possession of that Bomb (or, "would be" in possession of it). For all he knows, the possessors of the Bomb in the Future whom the "gorilla" army goes to war against are belligerent beings, rather than peaceful people. Mendez, perhaps hoping to prevent Doomsday entirely, may think that the only way to do that is for him to be in total control of it... using his telepathic abilities to control the minds of the people he leads... and undergoing a self-induced "reincarnation" every so often, hijacking the brain of an undeveloped fetus with his own Mind so that his personality will live on... and on... and on... ever in control of the Bomb.

A device which he never intended to worship himself -- but only for others to treat with the utmost respect. However, when he makes the telepathic "jump" into the brain of Alma's fetus less than a year later, during the time prior to being born the telepathic connection between mother-and-child causes him -- as Mendez II -- to become "infected" with the madness of Bomb-worship.

But we should keep in mind that this Bomb-worship theology is actually a form of God-worship, where the Bomb is thought to be [as Mendez XXVI says] "the instrument of my God" -- the same way that the Ark of the Covenant (a death-dealing weapon of mass destruction built by Moses after the Exodus) was considered a "holy" thing, the very throne of God when He supposedly occupied his "house" -- the Tabernacle, then the Temple built by Solomon. It should be noted that the Ark of the Covenant is the only nonhuman "thing" which was anointed, along with the Israelite kings, prophets, and priests . The Israelites treated that object as if it were a Person, since the power of their God supposedly was suffused in it. As an anointed thing, the Ark of the Covenant was a "messiah"...

So, perhaps Mendez initially sought for his people to think of the Bomb as a latter day Ark of the Covenant. A weapon of "peace" in that it would never be detonated by them, the same way that the Ark of the Covenant was eventually set into the Holy of Holies of the Temple, never intended to be moved so long as the Israelites kept themselves pure in the eyes of their God. Mendez, then, feels that he can use his mind-control powers to keep his people in line: his Mind is like a remote-control Authenticator that can see into the thoughts of any of his people. Nobody can lie to him without him knowing it. No "sin" can remain hidden. When somebody has a "bad" thought, Mendez can mentally reach over and bitch-slap the underling, like when the Negro closes his eyes and inflicts punishment on Brent. Mendez can enforce Purity in the lesser minds of his people.

Mendez fashions the community's religion after the religion that gave him solace prior to the onset of his telepathic abilities: Catholicism . When he leads the people of Breck's city away from the vicinity of Caesar's people -- to put as much distance between his people and the armed gorillas who would, one day, invade their territory and cause the Bomb to be triggered -- he doesn't set up the Bomb just anywhere. After it had been set up by Kolp in the wrecked Ape Management complex -- which was not a place of worship -- it is set up by Mendez in a Roman Catholic cathedral, St. Patrick's Cathedral. Because, at the time, Mendez I considered himself to be a Catholic, the Bomb being an End Time version of the Ark of the Covenant. An instrument of God. And, able to reincarnate time and again, Mendez would be the last of the line of Popes: with Rome nuked, and the last Pope dead, a community of believers could choose a new pope by Acclamation, rather than have a College of Cardinals vote in a successor...

But, when he becomes Mendez II -- Alma's maternal mind warping his newly incarnated mind prior to birth -- he gets his theological beliefs twisted , in conformity with Alma's mad notions which had been inculcated in her by Mendez I. As a matter of course, Mendez comes to believe wholly in the non-existent God that Alma believes in, including the notion that the Nuclear War was God's Will... that the effects of that onslaught (radiation from the fallout) were also part of God's Plan for them. "... the blessings of the Holy Fallout..."

Since, then, this God+Bomb-worshipping religion is a twisted form of Catholicism, it should be reckoned that certain thoughts and behaviors are deemed Sinful... including Suicide.

And this is where Albina comes in. She is found by Zaius and a troop of gorillas in the Grand Central Terminal interrogation chamber, a phial of poison having been used by her to take her own life. We never see any other Mutant resort to suicide, do we? They all are slaughtered by the Apes -- except for the Negro, who is killed by Taylor and Brent. As he is dying, he goes out of his way to peel off his mask, to "reveal my Inmost Self unto my God!"

But Albina doesn't take off her mask. She knows that by committing suicide she's going against the Will of the "God" these crazy people worship. As a telepath, she has undoubtedly "felt" telepathically the sheer terror felt by all the other Mutants being slaughtered by the gorillas... experienced their deaths vicariously. It's one thing to feel sympathy for somebody... to empathize ... but to actually feel being slaughtered, to feel bullets rip through you... each Mutant death is telepathically "felt" by every other Mutant.

And Albina, having felt the deaths of virtually all the other people... felt them dying horribly and utterly alone -- without the presence of an Angel to shepherd them to their afterlife -- it is as if they've all died whilst simultaneously losing their faith... having been abandoned by their God. 

All, that is, except for the Negro -- who believes he's going to see his "God" face-to-face when his soul leaves his dead body. But, then, he is killed before the gorillas begin their slaughter of the Mutant community.

But Albina -- in my scenario -- goes mad (or, madder) with sheer terror. She feels that their God has either abandoned them... or that "He" never existed in the first place. Perhaps she has gleaned a hint that their community had been fooled long ago into believing in a nonexistent God... forced to believe in the impossible due to Mendez's telepathic ability to force somebody to think an otherwise unthinkable thought.

Rather than continue on believing that their "God" may yet save at least some of them, including her... rather than continue to put her trust, her "faith" in that "God"... she, for the first time in her life, seizes the reins of her own fate. She does something that had previously been unthinkable: she kills herself. Suicide. Self-murder. A sin against their God... a "God" who has abandoned them all to Death.

However... just in case their "God" does exist... some part of her feels a remnant of shame at having succumbed to the "easy" (or easier) way out. If God is awaiting her soul, to judge it, then how would she want to appear before Him? Does she dare reveal to Him her Inmost Self? Perhaps, in the frenzied moments leading to her taking the poison, she is afraid to take off her mask, preferring to conceal her Inmost Self.

Also... when the gorillas reach the Cathedral, it is locked from inside. Perhaps Mendez XXVI had locked himself inside it, preventing anyone else from getting in. Albina would know that he was in there alone... he having made it impossible for anyone else to join him in the presence of the Bomb. The Negro had died before that, and he'd had no opportunity to drag his dying ass all the way to the Cathedral in order to reveal his Inmost Self to the actual Bomb... so he did what little he could do, perhaps hoping that some other Mutant could telepathically relay his dying intentions directly to the Verger or to Mendez or to whomever might be in the Cathedral.

But Albina, locked out of the Cathedral with everybody else, perhaps feels that Mendez has abandoned everybody else. Mendez, too, would've felt the deaths of his people -- as a master telepath, he would've felt their deaths all the more keenly. He, too, must feel as if his faith is being put to the test, if their "God" has allowed the entire population to be wiped out. Perhaps he has a wince of Doubt at some point... and Albina senses it. If their leader can find himself assailed by Doubt, even if it is but a slight lapse... then what hope could there be for her? If that's the case, it is no wonder that she would choose to take poison.

And... if her faith has taken a hit prior to poisoning herself, who's to say that she hasn't rethought the notion of what is or is not "beautiful"? Their hymns say that their Inmost Self-image is "beautiful"... "All things bright and beautiful... the good Bomb made us all!"... and yet they all wear masks which conceal that Inmost Self, showing to everybody else when they're not in the Cathedral (in the presence of the Bomb) an outer image that represents what they would look like if they were not scarred by radiation.

They've been ugly-ass Mutants for nearly 2,000 years... but they still have millions of years of evolution behind them, including standards of beauty that had been ingrained in their pre-telepathic ancestors. That standard of beauty includes a luscious head of blonde hair ... which is why the bald Albina not only has a "pretty" face-Mask, but also a wig of blonde hair. I suspect that images of feminine beauty from pre-Nuke War times had been preserved in the mind of Mendez I, II, III... etc etc... and there was no way to excise the natural attraction that a male feels for a beautiful woman. In order to be able to procreate, the Mutants would've had to find a way to mask the ugly bald faces of the women -- and the women, too, would've had to have a handsome face to look at, just for the sake of maintaining mutual attraction. In order to function as a society, they had no choice but to mask their inner ugliness... but their religious dogmas also compelled them to believe that their "God" deemed their unmasked faces to be "beautiful" in His eyes , so that they would be showing Him their reverence by revealing those Inmost Selves when in His presence.

Remember how Alma, in BATTLE , is first seen applying makeup to her face? Even as far back as then, she was aware of the effects of radiation on her features... and was attempting to mask the skin damage by applying makeup. Perhaps Albina's last act was a reflection of that innate need to feel beautiful, even in death. There would be nobody to bury her, after all... no embalmer to prettify her corpse. She would have to do it herself.

Patrick

>
>
> --- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@> wrote:
>
> Another thought I had watching Beneath.....which I've noticed

>
> Anyone have any thoughts as to why Albina did not " reveal her in

> self unto her god " like Ongaro, when she offed her self? Surely

> would have had time if she drank poison.....
>

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melinda G Kettler
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 1:50 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Picture Link

Found this pic. I have no idea where Brunswick Street, Fitzroy, is.

http://www.flickr. com/photos/ dogmatic/ 1065270177/

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of PofTAfan@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 1:49 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Re: What footage?

If the POTA TV show were made today, the show would be dramatically
changed something like
what they did with "Battlestar Galactica", "The Night Stalker", "Flash
Gordon" and what Gennadiy
Tarotoskiy did with the "Star Wars, Clone Wars".

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim "apefan"
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 1:27 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Re: Bound comics... ahhhhhhhhhh.

oh...

I chose not to get those as I hope to get the real
ones some day...

--- mwhitty <mwhitty@optusnet. com.au> wrote:

> Argentinean comics.

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dario Sciola
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:53 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Picture Link

I put "Brunswick, Fitzroy" into the GoogleMap query box and it came up
as a corner in Melbourne Australia.

Anyone there that can check it out and perhaps get a closer pic? (I
forget which city Neil and now Michael live in. Don't have my address
book with me.)

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mwhitty
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:37 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Back From Star Trek Convention

He’s still recovering from the Black Sabbath (with Dio) concert we saw last night so be patient!  J

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 11:22 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] The World Without Us

I'm about 150 pages into a fantastic book titled The World Without Us, by Alan Weisman. A recent issue of Scientific American did an article on this. It is, beyond doubt, one of the most well-researched and fascinating books I've ever encountered.

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melinda G Kettler
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:44 AM
To: friends_and_fugitives@yahoogroups.com; PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Cc: pota@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Back From Star Trek Convention

Hey y'all! I'm back from the Star Trek Convention in Vegas, and believe it
or not, I DID find something that was POTA related! They had a large area
in the dealers' room where different guests were signing autographs. Most
of the guests there had small guest starring roles in the original Star Trek
episodes. Well, I was walking around and came across a small midget of a
man named Felix Silla. He had all these pictures of the various roles he
has played, and he had a pic of himself as an ape, and I asked him about it.
I'm not good about knowing the names of secondary characters, especially
when they have all the ape makeup on, but he played the little ape that sees
Taylor sneaking around when that memorial service is going on and says,
"It's a man!" I was flipping out to find somebody that had been in the
original POTA movie! So, I had to get the pic and autograph so I could
bring it back to share with y'all. I've attached it here. In a couple of
days, when I've downloaded my own pics, I'll post the picture of Felix I
took, as he looks today. Feel free to put either pic in the files section.

.

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of patrickmichaeltilton
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:29 PM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [PotaDG] Re: What footage?

I've completed plotting it out. I know who is where at what time and what they're doing, but I haven't hammered out the text of it yet.

I've already given away some of that plot before, indicating that:

1) After the events of The Surgeon, Virdon -- having just barely avoided dying by gunshot -- will lead his fellow fugitives to the site where ANSA built and test-flew their vehicles back in the late 1960s/early 1970s... a site which he knows how to find now that he knows where certain known landmarks are (i.e. San Francisco & Oakland, etc).

2) The lone survivor of the previous crashed spaceship (mentioned by Zaius and Urko in Escape From Tomorrow) had been spending almost all of the last 10 years at that ANSA site, working with re-activated industrial robots to build flyable ANSA spaceships with Hasslein-devised hyperdrives. It was from this very ANSA facility (in Nevada) where this person used a transceiver to establish remote control over Virdon's ship when it popped out of hyperspace in Earth's gravity well on 3-21-3085... so that he could bring the ship down to its safe landing near Chalo, the astronauts aboard it having been either dead (Jones) or unconscious (Virdon and Burke).

.

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
I like the way it goes up to this point but then it all gets a bit too Sci-Fi for me and less like Planet of the Apes if you can understand what I mean.

Neil
________________________________________________________________

*** Hmmm... Let me put it a bit differently, then.

My last (i.e. 15th) episode/adventure for Virdon, Burke, and Galen is intended to do two things, predominantly. Firstly, it attempts to resolve each of their character arcs: that is, what Escape From Tomorrow started, Escape To Yesterday is intended to fulfill.

In Virdon's case, that means taking the scene in EFT where he tells Burke his idea of retrieving the Flight Record disc from the crashed ship... finding a computer... analyzing what "went wrong"... reversing the process that got them there (somehow)... and returning home -- which, for him, means returning to the U.S.A. of the 20th Century, a time-and-place which is doomed to suffer the destruction the Fugitives will see in their travels. But... that's where his wife and son are, so he wants to go back to them... and maybe he can alter history so as to prevent the planet from going ape.

In Burke's case, he is the type who didn't have roots so established, so that he could make a new home wherever he could escape to. Staying alive is his first order of business, using the "creative cowardice" he mentions in The Liberator . But... when he learns about what happened on Earth after he'd left it in Virdon's ship -- the Ape-onauts... the Pet Plague... the Ape Slavery period... the Ape Revolt... the Nuclear War... and , most importantly, the fact that those Ape-onauts had revealed that they'd witnessed the complete destruction of the Earth from orbit in 3955... Burke is faced with a severe dilemma. Does he merely find a place on the Earth in 3085 which is "safe" for him? Maybe shack up with an indigenous (and pretty) girl... start a family... live as good a life as he can as far away from Urko's gorillas? All the while knowing that the world will be destroyed in 870 years. Long after he's dead... but surely during the lifetimes of whatever descendants he may beget in his "safe" little world.

In Galen's case, what might he hope to do in his personal future? He'd already made a choice to accompany the two human fugitives who represented the Truth that had been hidden from all Apes by the Zaiuses of his world. Now , to learn that chimpanzees from a future less than a millennium away had somehow managed to travel backwards through Time -- to the time when Virdon and Burke came from -- having witnessed the destruction of the world... what would Galen want to do? He knows that Zaius has a deathly fear of "destruction"... the ability to destroy that caused Man to wipe out his own civilization has been neutered by Zaius in the Ape culture: Truth has been made "against the law" for a reason... and now Galen knows that reason. The world itself will be wiped out. What hope is there? Why should anybody even bother trying to build a Future, if there is no future? This is the same dilemma that Caesar faced, after learning the Truth from his deceased parents' videotaped lips.

The sci-fi aspects of my scenario are there to provide a plausible way to afford Virdon the ability to time-travel backwards to "his" time -- so that he can inadvertently unleash the Pet Plague that he'd been infected with -- and to afford Burke and Galen the ability (if they so choose) to time-travel forwards through Time so that they arrive in the Final Generation... the End-Time. To try to save the world... to accomplish what Caesar could only hope posterity would do after his death, but what he couldn't personally act to do.

In the last two of the 14 filmed episodes (in my timeline, "The Interrogation" and "The Surgeon "), Galen will have acquired information about his own family history that had been kept from him by his father -- this is the "favor" that Yalu did for Zaius, suppressing the knowledge that Galen is the lineal ancestor of Proteus, the illegitimate son of Caesar (begotten on the Breeding Annex female). Chimpanzees had once been in control of the Ape Society -- back in what was deemed, by later generations, as the "Golden Age". But when chimpanzees lost power -- due to the later invasion of the descendants of the armed Gorillas who had seceded near the time of Caesar's death, with seven centuries of pent-up indignation towards Caesar's "human-loving" ways -- things went downhill for everybody but those who were in power: the Gorillas and the Orangutans, the Military and the Religious. The chimpanzees had been turned into a simian minority -- outvoted by the other two species of Apes -- and the humans had been subjugated entirely.

And, with the descendants of those conquering Gorillas and Orangutans still running the show -- and poised to continue running things up until Doomsday -- what hope is there for the Future? Galen, knowing his family's legacy as the bearers of the Blood of Caesar, must wonder what he can do in 3085 to change the world, so as to prevent the ultimate destruction of the world...

... but Burke -- if he were to successfully time-travel forwards to the time just before Doomsday, in order to prevent it if he can -- what chance would he have to accomplish it? Learning that the civilization from which the Ape-onauts came was even harsher towards Man than the 3085 society, what are the odds that Burke would live long enough to find the lurking Doomsday Bomb -- not knowing where it is -- and then dismantle it somehow, without being slaughtered by some gunwielding gorilla?

The sci-fi aspects of the End-Time adventure of Galen and Burke are meant to provide some sort of plausible way -- a scientifically feasible way -- for them to go about attempting the all-but-impossible. Burke, who fears being killed by the gorillas of Urko's time, would have to face such fears in the Future in order to save the world, if it can be saved. But he doesn't have a prayer all on his own... he needs Galen's help. And Galen, knowing that Zaius and Urko aren't about to allow their own positions of political power to be pulled out from under them, knows that any attempt by him to step forward and make a claim for political power -- invoking his "right" to be the King of Apedom owing to his blood-descent from Caesar, the "savior" remembered only by the very few who have secretly guarded this lost knowledge -- is a fool's errand.

Even if Galen could count on the complete support of all the chimpanzees of the "known" world... they would still be outnumbered by the Gorilla-and-Orangutan faction -- and outgunned . And if he were to promise to emancipate the Humans, making a Chimpanzee-plus-Human faction to oppose the Gorilla-and-Orangutan faction, there's still the matter of weaponry. The gorillas have the guns . Unless Burke were to help the Humans to make guns and bullets of their own, the gorillas would be able to force their will militarily. And armed Humans -- even if they were to ally themselves with the Chimpanzees in order to fight the Gorillas and Orangutans -- might not be content to live peacefully with any Apes in the aftermath of their own victory.

If the humans of 3085 were to learn that the Ape civilization had been preceded by a more advanced (i.e. "better") human civilization... what is to prevent them from wishing to re-establish a Humans-only civilization? Can the Chimpanzees trust potential Human allies to enjoy any postwar peace they might fight for? After all, although Caesar may have been in favor (ultimately) of true Equality for Apes and Humans... Proteus was not. Proteus had favored Ape dominance over Man -- and it was this that prevented Caesar from "acknowledging" him as his son and heir. Caesar preferred an end to the Dynasty rather than allow a blood-son of his to steer the Future towards the Doomsday that awaits it when Ape and Man are not dwelling in peace as equals.

Galen, then, makes the decision to accompany Burke into the Future... to try to help him find and destroy the Doomsday Bomb that will otherwise be detonated in 3955. Not only will there be a cast of extra astronaut actors on that end-time stage along with Taylor and Brent (and I'm talking about the Orion Mission's other ANSA astronauts here)... but Galen and Burke will be there, too. Galen will choose to do what he can to save the world... what his ancestor Caesar would've done if he himself could've found a way to be alive in that critical time. Galen will feel motivated to act as if he were Caesar reborn .

But they will be 42 years older on Doomsday, for their time-warping ship will de-warp in the year 3913, trapping them in the Earth-Darkmoon system at a time when Dr. Zaius was a teenager, about to be initiated into the "Terrible Secret" by his father. A time when there is still a Quota System disenfranchising the chimpanzee contingent of Ape City. A time soon before the Gorilla army -- led by a "gorilla to remember" who is a Defender of the Faith against all enemies of the Faith -- is mustered to deal with the danger posed by a heretical "cult"...

My Escape To Yesterday story will end after Virdon goes back to 1983, after his Last Message to his fellow fugitives-in-the-future is received (a holographic recording in the ANSA archives). The adventures of Burke and Galen in the further Future (i.e. in 3913 and beyond) will be the beginning of the 3rd part of the Trilogy. Part 1 (if you'll remember) deals with the events of ESCAPE, CONQUEST , and BATTLE -- plus before/in-between/after events, and Part 3 will deal with the events of PLANET and BENEATH -- plus the before/during/after events I'm fleshing out for my overarching plot. Part 2 will deal predominantly with the 2 crews of spaceships -- the one which landed over 10 years before Virdon's ship, and Virdon-Burke-Galen, the 14 episodes plus my 15th one. Virdon's odyssey will come to a close at the end of Part 2 ["3085: A Space-Time Odyssey"...?].

Addressing the fates of individual characters and of entire populations of Apes and Humans in conflict, the sci-fi elements are there primarily to establish a scientifically plausible means of getting them from one place/time to another. To complete the character arcs of the Fugitives... by propelling Virdon back to the Past and Burke and Galen forward to the Future , to the "latter-days" so to speak, so that they can play roles in the dangerous drama co-incident with the adventures of Taylor and Brent on the planet of the apes. Of course, neither Burke nor Galen will ever meet Taylor or Brent... but they will (perhaps) be able to encounter the other ANSA astronauts who landed the ship later discovered by Milo.

And (in my scenario) Cornelius will first acquire an interest in exploring the Forbidden Zone not because of his archaeological curiosity... but because the father he never knew had been involved with that persecuted "cult" whose followers had become Apostates. Had fled to the Forbidden Zone. To find... what? Cornelius will have been raised not knowing the truth about his father; knowing him to have been named Galen, but not knowing the fantastic truth of where -- and when -- he came from.

Patrick

 

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:
>
> -- Victoria, Australia.
>
> Cool picture. If I was anywhere near the place I'd go and see if it
was
> still there.
>
> Neil
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Melinda G Kettler
> Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 1:50 PM
> To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PotaDG] Picture Link
>
>
>
> Found this pic. I have no idea where Brunswick Street, Fitzroy, is.
>
> http://www.flickr
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/dogmatic/1065270177/>
> com/photos/dogmatic/1065270177/
>
> .
>
> <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?
s=97359714/grpId=8605785/grpspId=1705021437/m
> sgId=45824/stime=1187063560/nc1=3848627/nc2=3858796/nc3=3848432>
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Foster" <ntfoster@...> wrote:

-- This sounds like a very interesting read Patrick, thanks for the info, I'll be looking out for it now.

Neil

________________________________________________________________

*** I just finished it yesterday, and... wow. Magnificent book. Chapters 10 and 15 are particularly engrossing, dealing with what would happen if the oil-production facilities of places like Houston (Texas) were to be rendered devoid of human oversight, and if "the world's 441 functioning nuclear plants" were to be left to their own devices. Unmonitored, those nuclear power plants would ultimately go into "meltdown". And this doesn't even address the longterm problem of the environmental impact of all the nuclear waste that has been generated by those 441 plants.

If there were to be a nuclear war, then the devastation caused by nuclear blasts would be amplified manifold by the effects on those nuclear power plants and oil-production facilities. It's scary enough to imagine -- as author Alan Weisman does -- what would happen if human beings just vanished (like in an evangelical "Rapture"-event) and left those facilities to run on their own (and then to rundown and go critical)... but it's far scarier to imagine their ecological impacts on top of the already horrific effects of a Global Thermonuclear War.

One major implication of this book, in regards to the POTA saga, is that the nuclear power plants and oil-production facilities (and chemical factories) in California would definitely become danger zones... forbidden zones ... places where the Apes never would go due to the fact that they are so polluted with toxic substances. I'm gonna have to find a map showing the locations of all the nuclear plants (etc) in the California/Oregon/Nevada region, so that I can position the known towns of Apedom in areas far enough away from them.

Certain villages -- like Numai, for instance, near Oakland -- would have to be relatively close to places which would be unavoidably contaminated. Perhaps the "bad air" in the subway station where Urko and Burke are trapped is due to toxic material seeping through the groundwater below the streets of San Francisco. Imagine a chemical like sulfur dioxide being spilled over a vast area from some chemical plant: the smell of rotten eggs would undoubtedly accompany it. I could easily imagine industrial quantities of such materials tainting a post-nuke zone for many centuries after the fact.

I would love to see Weisman's book turned into a documentary miniseries, one episode per chapter, like COSMOS . Using CGI to visualize what he so eloquently describes in his prose, they could really make an engrossing series of shows. It would be like the flipside of those documentaries that re-imagine the ruins of some ancient structure (like the Parthenon) in all their original glory, showing us what they once looked like. To see our world reduced over time due to the disappearance of Mankind would be interesting. The relatively few illustrations in the book just whet the appetite.

Patrick

 

----- Original Message -----

From: mwhitty

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 10:53 PM

Subject: [PotaDG] MAURICE EVANS(PLANET OF THE APES) RARE SIGNED CHECK

So what was happening with PLANET on this date (October 29 1968)?

http://cgi.ebay. com/MAURICE- EVANS-PLANET- OF-THE-APES- RARE-SIGNED- CHECK_W0QQitemZ2 50153721817QQihZ 015QQcategoryZ14 433QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

Michael

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, "mwhitty" <mwhitty@...> wrote:
>
> So what was happening with PLANET on this date (October 29 1968)?
>
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/MAURICE-EVANS-PLANET-OF-THE-APES-RARE-SIGNED-
CHECK_W0QQi
>
temZ250153721817QQihZ015QQcategoryZ14433QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV
iewIte
> m
>
>
>
> Michael
>

--- In PotaDG@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
At Apemania was, or still is, an interview with the guy who did Evans's
makeup. He's said that Evans spit when he talked and the chin piece
constantly had to be "fixed up." I've also noticed that Evans wears
two different chin pieces in the movie. There's the one best seen on
the black&white photo on the 1-sheet and the ads, and then there's the
other one best seen in that color photo on the PLANET LP jacket. When
you first see him in the movie he's got the "LP cover" chin piece on,
but by the time you see him again outside the outdoor cage, he's now
sporting the "1-sheet" chin. Check it out!

-- Rory

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 1:04 PM

Subject: [PotaDG] Re: MAURICE EVANS(PLANET OF THE APES) RARE SIGNED CHECK

In a message dated 8/18/2007 1:55:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, mwhitty@optusnet. com.au writes:

So what was happening with PLANET on this date (October 29 1968)?

http://cgi.ebay. com/MAURICE- EVANS-PLANET- OF-THE-APES- RARE-SIGNED- CHECK_W0QQitemZ2 50153721817QQihZ 015QQcategoryZ14 433QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem



Michael




Nothing was happening on that date.  PLANET had already been out for most the year.  What I'm curious about is why is he paying a power company a mere $4.44?

Very strange.

-- Rory


************ ********* ********* ********
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover. aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour

----- Original Message -----

From: Haristas@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2007 1:13 PM

Subject: [PotaDG] Re: MAURICE EVANS(PLANET OF THE APES) RARE SIGNED CHECK

In a message dated 8/18/2007 11:35:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, veetus@earthlink. net writes:

They finished filming August 10. Maybe dubbing? That's one thing that always bugs me, especially now with all the great remastered sound. When Zauis says, "He eats up his food supply in the forest, then migrates to our green belts and ravages our crops" it's obviously dubbed. I think they had to pretty much dub all the apes but that must have been a trouble line.

At Apemania was, or still is, an interview with the guy who did Evans's makeup.  He's said that Evans spit when he talked and the chin piece constantly had to be "fixed up."  I've also noticed that Evans wears two different chin pieces in the movie.  There's the one best seen on the black&white photo on the 1-sheet and the ads, and then there's the other one best seen in that color photo on the PLANET LP jacket.  When you first see him in the movie he's got the "LP cover" chin piece on, but by the time you see him again outside the outdoor cage, he's now sporting the "1-sheet" chin.  Check it out!

-- Rory


************ ********* ********* ********
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover. aol.com/memed/ aolcom30tour

----- Original Message -----

From: mwhitty

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:10 PM

Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Picture Link

Queensland is sorta the Aussie CALIFORNIA.

Right down to Surfer’s Paradise being like the Aussie HOLLYWOOD…sorta….

---

From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Neil Foster
Sent: Thursday, 16 August 2007 7:38 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: RE: [PotaDG] Picture Link

-- Near Brisbane in 'beautiful one day, perfect the next' Queensland , the sunshine state.

Neil

-----Original Message-----
From: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com [ PotaDG@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Dario Sciola
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:53 AM
To: PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [PotaDG] Picture Link

I put " Brunswick , Fitzroy" into the GoogleMap query box and it came up
as a corner in Melbourne Australia .

Anyone there that can check it out and perhaps get a closer pic? (I
forget which city Neil and now Michael live in. Don't have my address
book with me.)

.

----- Original Message -----

From: TZer0@...

To: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 20, 2007 1:56 AM

Subject: Re: [PotaDG] MAURICE EVANS(PLANET OF THE APES) RARE SIGNED CHECK

In a message dated 8/18/2007 10:35:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, veetus@earthlink. net writes:

When Zauis says, "He eats up his food supply in the forest, then migrates to our green belts and ravages our crops" it's obviously dubbed.

 

Actually 85% of all dialogue in movies is dubbed.

Only 15% or so of any of the original dialogue recordings

ever makes it into the final cut, and almost no sound effects.

 

---

Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Foster <ntfoster@...>
Date: Sunday, August 19, 2007 5:03 pm
Subject: [PotaDG] Comic Book Convention In Toronto

> Just thought our Canadian friends might be interested in this,
> from the
> Mr. Comics site:
>
> The Top 5 Totally Hard To Argue With Reasons Why You Should Visit Mr.
> Comics' Booth At The Comic Book Convention In Toronto On August 24-26
> (look out Letterman!): <http://www.mrcomics.ca/news.htm> read
> more here
>
> Neil
>
>

> Thanks Tim!
>
>
>
> Hey - were you working on a film?
>
>
>
> Michael
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: PotaDG@yahoogroups.com
> [PotaDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Tim "apefan"
> Sent: Tuesday, 21 August 2007 9:13 AM
> To: POTA; POTA DG
> Subject: [PotaDG] Army Archard
>
>
>
> Army Archard the Variety reporter has a deep
> connection with POTA....he appeared as extras in the
> first two (I believe) and was the boxing referee in
> Escape!
> During my recent trip to LA, this happened to be in
> a
> copy of Daily Variety! Thought it was interesting!
> I'll put it in the files too!
>
> I still have to report on my whole site scouting
> trip!
> Just have to get the time and compile pics!
>
> Tim
>
>