--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, rob reading <readingrob@...> wrote:
> I also have purchased pictures from him in the past, the quality being OK at best. On one occasion I offered to trade some pictures with him that I obtained in a trade off with someone in the UK. He had a monkey fit and told me they had his copyright on them because he had purchased the same images from a freelance photographer not employed by Fox and that he had purchased the copyright from the photographer along with the negatives. If he has that attitude towards what hapens to his precious pictures he should keep them in a box under his bed or shove them where the sun don't shine.
>
>
>
> Rob
>
>
>
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> From: PofTAfan@...
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 22:29:55 -0400
> Subject: Re: [pota] Re: Behind the Scenes pics!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I had the guy I bought the pictures from, telling me to delete the photos that I gave to the group, but I talked
> to some workers at my job where I worked at and they told me he should have put on his Ebay listing not to upload
> the photos that i won. I even won some more photos, the guy hasn't sent them to me either. he has a choice to make,
> either give me money back or give me the photos that I won. it his choice.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James <JamesA1102@...>
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, 3 May 2009 2:57 pm
> Subject: [pota] Re: Behind the Scenes pics!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks Kevin! I've uploaded them to the folder: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/photos/album/59373267/pic/list
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, jessica rotich <jessicarotich@> wrote:
> >
> > Kevin, seeing these makes me want to make my own Escape outfit!!! And I
> > will...maybe next year, including the swing jacket. I really love these
> > photos.
> >
> > Jessica.
> >
> > On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:29 AM, PofTAfan@ wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't know if you have any of these pictures
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: James JamesA1102@
> > > To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Sun, 3 May 2009 12:22 pm
> > > Subject: [pota] Behind the Scenes pics!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > *Thanks to Kevin* *(PofTAfan) for a contributing many Behind the Scenes
> > > pics. They can be found in the Photos Section:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/photos/album/59373267/pic/list*
> > > *Thanks again Kevin!*
> > >
> > > ------------------------------
> > > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!<http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222376998x1201454298/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=May5309footerNO62>
> > > *
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Big savings on Dell's most popular laptops. Now starting at $449!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____

> Anyone have any specific info on the stageplay?

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, William Burge <billburge48@...> wrote:
> dear group this guy joe russo had a 7 page write up in the magazine called sci fi universe 1st issue-june of 1994 and the article was called monkey business it stated that a book titled planet of the apes revisited would come out in jan 1995 and to send 13.95 plus 2.95 postage to a new york address and in a couple of weeks you would get the book. well i didnt get the book . the article said that cinemaker press would publish the book. i think he took the monies from everbody and it came out by st martins press in june 2001 costing 19.95 during the opening of tim burtons remake of planet. i think he is not an honest person to deal with. he ripped a lot of people off to publish his book in 2001. i need a refund of 16.90 . i dont trust this man.
>

--- On Fri, 5/8/09, yo_agassi <yo_agassi@...> wrote:

> From: yo_agassi <yo_agassi@...>
> Subject: [pota] Re: Horseback Tack
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, May 8, 2009, 12:44 PM
> Many thanks RD!
> It looks like my curiosity is going to lead me on a merry
> quest. Lol.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "rassmguy" <handleyr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Tim \"apefan\"" <apefan23@> wrote:
> > Anyone have any specific info on the stageplay?
>
> You might find some here:
>
> http://planetoftheapes.wikia.com/wiki/Planet_of_the_Apes_UK_Live_Show
>

Glad you have your priorities straight. ;-)

PS I saw Star Trek last night and loved it although I almost crippled myself in the process.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Dave B" <smugster2000@...> wrote:
>
> I'm just back from seeing it - thought it was pretty... ordinary. (But I read the 'Chronicles 1st!)
>
> Dave
>

Some of the original press releases can by found in the Pressbooks available on Hunter's site: https://pota.goatley.com/pressbooks/

Original reviews are available on Variety's web site: www.variety.com .

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Hoknes" <hoknescards@...> wrote:
>
> One thing nobody has ever documented is original press releases, articles, reviews
> and most importantly weekly movie sales/stats of the POTA movies and tv show
>
> If we can locate these magazines we could fill in some important gaps
> in documenting the films press info and actual popularity and sales
>
> Please let me know if your local library etc has these issues
> thanks
>

Glad that everything worked out in the end Kevin.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, PofTAfan@... wrote:
>
>
> Well, I finally got the pictures, I think that going through Paypal, but the he sent the photos on the
> 6th of May. That did me a lot of good, all it did was to raise my blood pressure to a dangerous point,
> I should have contacted him, instead of letting my anger get the best of me.
>
>

In answer to your first question my guess would be that it is something the Pournelle came up with himself. The novelization of  Escape was written 2 years after the movie was made and Pournelle took many liberties with the story.

As far as your second question, I think your explaination is pretty good.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@...> wrote:
>
> However, was that bit of character development concerning Hasslein's son originally in an earlier draft of the "Escape" shooting script? Or did author Jerry Pournelle create that contribution himself?
>
> In light of all that transpires within the "Escape" storyline, what do you believe that passing reference to Hasslein's son was meant to convey about Hasslein himself?
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, stenosaurus@... wrote:
>
>
> Plus we have to realize these photos are not our property in the first place. Legally they are the property of Fox, MGM, CBS, etc. We just have the 'privilege' of owning them.
>
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Alex Ruiz <pota1968@...> wrote:
>
> Agreed. As I was telling Jeff K. yesterday...
>
> Just saw Star Trek this morning. Very good movie. Best standout performances were Anton Yelchin (Chekov) and Karl Urban (McCoy).
> Those two really made the movie in my opinion.
>
> And now we'll get more from Anton Yelchin in Terminator Salvation playing non other than Kyle Reese.
> That kid's a real ball of talent. Damn good.
>
> Al
>
>
>
>
>

Best place to look for that would be in LA.

Not at all! Any decent big public library or University library will have Variety, probably on microfilm. For instance, I work at the University of Colorado, and have full access to Variety magazine on microfilm. Unfortunately, since I'm working on another book project, I don't have any time to spend on Apes right now. Maybe in a year or so, but I would think that someone else on this list would have access to a good library. And it doesn't have to be in LA!


Scott

Best place to look for that would be in LA. I have copies of all the
reviews Variety gave the APES pics, but not the B.O. info.

-- Rory

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Hoknes <hoknescards@ shaw.ca>
To: pota@yahoogroups. com; PotaDG@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Sat, 9 May 2009 12:41 am
Subject: [pota] Variety magazines 1967-1974 - does anyone have access
to them ?

One thing nobody has ever documented is original
press releases, articles, reviews
and most importantly weekly movie sales/stats of
the POTA movies and tv show
 
If we can locate these magazines we could fill in
some important gaps
in documenting the films press info and actual
popularity and sales
 
Please let me know if your local library etc has
these issues
thanks

>This is Joe Russo. I'm not sure what "planet" William Burge is from, but I received nothing monetarily regarding any STARLOG orders, nor do I recall any mention of what he claims was stated regarding ordering a book.The book was a work in progress at that point.We got a stipend for doing the article-nothing more. To date PLANET OF THE APES REVISITED has cost me personally close to $10,000 to research and produce. We were never paid equitably from the publisher, and the project remains IN THE RED for me. I/we did the book because we loved the films and wanted to document them for future generations. Anything regarding payments of any kind has always been to circulate and further the APE saga and preserve it. So the I DON'T TRUST THIS MAn statement is, at the very least unfair.
>
> Well, I finally got the pictures, I think that going through Paypal, but the he sent the photos on the
> 6th of May. That did me a lot of good, all it did was to raise my blood pressure to a dangerous point,
> I should have contacted him, instead of letting my anger get the best of me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rassmguy <handleyr@...>
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 8 May 2009 6:56 pm
> Subject: [pota] Re: joe russo
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Have you tried contacting him to ask for your money back? Here's the URL of his site:
>
>
>
> http://www.joerusso.com/
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, William Burge <billburge48@> wrote:
>
> > dear group? this guy joe russo had a 7 page write up in the magazine called sci fi universe 1st issue-june of 1994? and the article was called monkey business it stated that a book titled planet of the apes revisited would come out in jan 1995 and to send? 13.95 plus 2.95 postage to a new york address and in a couple of weeks you would get the book. well i didnt? get the book??. the article said that cinemaker press? would publish the book.? i think he took the monies from everbody and it came out by st martins press in june 2001? costing 19.95 during the opening of tim burtons remake of planet.? i think he is not an honest person to deal with. he ripped a lot of people off to publish his book in 2001. i need a refund of 16.90 . i dont trust this man.
>
> >
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "georgetaylor68" <georgetaylor68@...> wrote:
>
>
> Cute. But is there any word on Caesar's potential production? It might help inspire producers to give the green light if the new Caesar thread got more attention here at Space.com's SciFi forum:
>
> http://www.space.com/common/forums/viewforum.php?f=18
>
> Happy Easter to all... :-)
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Alex Ruiz <pota1968@> wrote:
> >
> > Hot off the press!
> >
> > http://scifiwire.com/2009/01/war-monkeys-sammo-hung-apes-with-guns-whats-not-to-love.php
> >
> > Al :o)
> >
>

>"georgetaylor68" <georgetaylor68@> wrote:
> > Cute. But is there any word on Caesar's potential production? It might help inspire producers to give the green light if the new Caesar thread got more attention here at Space.com's SciFi forum:

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "apecalypsenow" <apecalypsenow@...> wrote:
>
> Hello guys,
>
> I'm writing this because I care, and because I love this fandom, which I consider as being very polite and respectful. Nice and fantastic people, overall speaking. Passionate fans, even more passionate than me, of course.
>
> I'm just saddened by the lack of interest most showed towards my work on the "APELINES". I worked very hard to make those "have a sense", and I think they have that (LOL). I was just expecting more feedback from the POTA fans.
>
> NOT ONLY, a guy writing a POTA fanzine (or so) contacted me one year ago. He was willing to issue the Apelines on his magazine... WHOOSH, I didn't know anything about it anymore. What happened? Enigma.
>
> Sorry for the rant, it's just that I'm a bit disappointed as how things turned in the end. Hope this situation is going to change sometime soon and someone will recognize the gigantic work of passion I did.
>
>
> Tiziano Caliendo
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
>
> I don't think Lucius or Julius were included, not to mention -- though
> I am -- Landon or Dodge. I'd pick any of them over Virgil or General
> Aldo any day. Hell, I'd even go for that kid yelling, "Look! It's a
> man!"
>
> -- Rory
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PofTAfan@...
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 1:53 pm
> Subject: Re: [pota] Re: Favorite POTA Characters
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mines are Zira, Cornelius, Lisa, Ceasar and Zaius are my top 5
>
>
>
> kevin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: jessica rotich jessicarotich@...
>
> To: pota@yahoogroups.com
>
> Sent: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 1:43 pm
>
> Subject: Re: [pota] Re: Favorite POTA Characters
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ooops! You're right. I missed that one...specifically looking for the
> title. :)
>
>
> Jess.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 7:07 AM, James JamesA1102@... wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have Ursus in there. He's the 4th listed. I just didn't call him
> General.
>
>
> Who are your 10 favorites?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, jessica rotich jessicarotich@
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > What? No20love for General Ursus?
>
> >
>
> > Jess.
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 8:01 AM, James JamesA1102@ wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > *The link below discusses favorite film characters and lists
> Charlton
>
> > > Heston as Taylor. *
>
>
> > >
>
> > > *It made me wonder what are everyone's favorite POTA
> characters so
>
> > > I created a new poll:
>
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/surveys?id=2850920. Please
> vote for up
>
>
> > > to 10. *
>
> > >
>
> > > *My 10 favorites are Taylor, Zira,
>
> > > Zaius, Ursus, Armando, Caesar, Breck, MacDonald, Virgil and
> The Lawgiver.*
>
> > >
>
> > > **
>
> > > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" JamesA1102@ wrote:
>
>
> > > >
>
> > > > Top 10 Favorite Film Characters
>
> > > > by Jeff Allard
>
> > > > 4. Taylor, Planet of the Apes (1968)/Beneath the Planet
> of the Apes
>
> > > (1970) A
>
> > > > lot of people revere Charlton Heston's Omega Man
> character of Robert
>
>
> > > Neville
>
> > > > but I'm with his turn as Taylor all the way...
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
> http://dinnerwithmaxjenke.blogspot.com/2009/04/meme-top-10-favorite-film-characters.html"
>
>
> > > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
> =0
> A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Average US Credit Score is 692. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
>

> Hello guys,
> I'm writing this because I care, and because I love this fandom, which I consider as being very polite and respectful. Nice and fantastic people, overall speaking. Passionate fans, even more passionate than me, of course.
> I'm just saddened by the lack of interest most showed towards my work on the "APELINES". I worked very hard to make those "have a sense", and I think they have that (LOL). I was just expecting more feedback from the POTA fans.
> NOT ONLY, a guy writing a POTA fanzine (or so) contacted me one year ago. He was willing to issue the Apelines on his magazine... WHOOSH, I didn't know anything about it anymore. What happened? Enigma.
> Sorry for the rant, it's just that I'm a bit disappointed as how things turned in the end. Hope this situation is going to change sometime soon and someone will recognize the gigantic work of passion I did.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lawless <lawford42@...> wrote:
>
> Go here (http://www.paulrichards.net/pr_film.htm) and scroll down until
> the entry for BENEATH. The oft referenced scene where Mendez is praying
> before the bust of his Ancestor Mendez I. I always thought that was a
> subtly intense moment where the guard (while searching for Nova) came
> across Mendez kneeling down in front of the bust and being disturbed at
> the image. It was included in both the Marvel comic adaptation and
> paperback novelization by Michael Avallone, but- along with so many other
> things- cut from the film.
>
> Looking at the photo, it's pretty obvious that all the busts were based
> on Paul Richard's likeness.
>
>
> Chris L.
>

Depends on the library. In NYC my local library doesn't even have microfilm files. Some of the larger branches in Manhattan have some NY Times microfilm. The only place that has full archives is the main branch on 5th Ave. & 42nd.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, David Ritter <mindwarp19662005@...> wrote:
>
> do library's still have the local and national; news paper archives? i know that the varied news papers have them like the daily news but you need to purchase them library's used to be free . what i guess im getting at is you can go to your library and get copies printed in thier archives of the box office stats of the planet of the apes. i did that with kiss old news articles like ace frehley driving his delorian on the wrong side of the tri boro bridge in 79
>
>
>
>

The word was that FOX was going to make a decision on developing a script last February. There has been no news if they gave it a go or not so far.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "rassmguy" <handleyr@...> wrote:
>
> I've been wondering what's going on with Caesar as well. I have mixed feelings about the film, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Hopefully, Fox hasn't nixed it--unless it's a bad script, of course, in which case I hope Fox HAS nixed it.
>
>
> >"georgetaylor68" <georgetaylor68@> wrote:
> > > Cute. But is there any word on Caesar's potential production? It might help inspire producers to give the green light if the new Caesar thread got more attention here at Space.com's SciFi forum:
>

Would love to see the pics Scott.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, scott bosco <digitalcinema@...> wrote:
>
> This reminded me - there were live shows like this in the US, also with a circus.  I went to one were I live in Staten Island NY once.  I even have some pics.  It was really a rip off since it was a regular circus and at one point a group of people dressed up as apes came out and walked around. I had forgotten all about this.
> - Scott
>

Thanks again Kevin. It has been uploaded to the Photos Section: http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/pota/spnew

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, PofTAfan@... wrote:
>
>
> James.
> ?????? Here's another pic which I won about a year ago.
>
> Kevin
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@...> wrote:

>
> I really don't think such a book would be rewarding to most "Planet of the Apes" fans if tried to reconcile the irreconcilable in terms of trying to explain away continuity lapses and contradictory plotlines of the POTA movies, TV series and published works as supposedly being logical (if not also canon) after all by force-fitting them all (canon and non-canon alike) into a supposedly logical timeline.
>
> So, I myself would be none too receptive to the notion of a timeline that tried to reconcile all the POTA works (canon and non-canon alike) to date into a supposedly logical timeline.

A Timeline book has been published (http://www.hassleinbooks.com/) and it is a wonderful reference book for POTA fans. The beauty of the book is that is doesn't not try to reconcile all the various incarnations of POTA. It simply lists them and notes the discrepencies.

> After all, in terms of the theatrical movies alone, we're talking about two different timelines. The POTA movies do not form a perfectly circular timeline but at "ESCAPE" spirals back to form an alternate timeline.
>

Don't forget the fine Forum of the Apes (http://forumoftheapes.yuku.com/directory) as well as Ape Chronicles and Simian Scrolls.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "rassmguy" <handleyr@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Tiziano,
>
> Having now read over APELINES in its entirety, I just wanted to commend you--it's clear you put a lot of thought into your timelines, and I commend you for your obvious passion as a fan. Kudos to you--very nicely done. It's largely the fans keeping Planet of the Apes alive these days--in this group, as well as in the DG and your Apecalypse Now group, and on Hunter's site. I look forward to seeing what else you come up with down the line.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rich Handley
> Timeline of the Planet of the Apes:
> The Definitive Chronology
>
>
>

I think she has more of a chance in 1968. Back then the Academy seemed to be more open to honoring popular films. Now they lean more toward art house Merchant Ivory stuff with Dame Judi Dench. Damn Brits! ;-)

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "shanter2002" <john@...> wrote:
>
> If the original POTA was released this year, would Kim Hunter win an Oscar?John,Scrolls.
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
> Don't forget the fine Forum of the Apes
> (http://forumoftheapes.yuku.com/directory
> <http://forumoftheapes.yuku.com/directory> ) as well as Ape Chronicles
> and Simian Scrolls.
>
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "rassmguy" <handleyr@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Tiziano,
> >
> > Having now read over APELINES in its entirety, I just wanted to
> commend you--it's clear you put a lot of thought into your timelines,
> and I commend you for your obvious passion as a fan. Kudos to you--very
> nicely done. It's largely the fans keeping Planet of the Apes alive
> these days--in this group, as well as in the DG and your Apecalypse Now
> group, and on Hunter's site. I look forward to seeing what else you come
> up with down the line.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Rich Handley
> > Timeline of the Planet of the Apes:
> > The Definitive Chronology
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:

>
> The plain fact that events happen after ESCAPE that contradict what's
> described in ESCAPE

I think the key word here is 'described'. Those events were not shown to the audience or witnessed by the characters who described them. Thus, they are at best hearsay and there can be many other explainations for the discrepancies.

> and mentioned in PLANET

What's mentioned in Planet is a human civilzation that existed 2,000 years earlier, not 1,500 years earlier as described in Escape. Thus, the events of Conquest & Battle are more in line with Planet (and Beneath) than what's described in Escape.

Plus, what's described in Escape even contracdicts itself in regard to Cornelius' earlier testimony that Apes had been speaking English for 2,000.

> show that the timeline has
> been altered, as anyone would know who's read enough science fiction
> that deals with the same sort of time travel paradoxes.

No they are discprencies that could have many other explainations. Just as if a third ship had been an element of the story there would have been a line of dialogue to establish that. And other science fiction doesn't apply. They each exist in their own universe with their own rules. Just because Luke Skywalker can use the force it doesn't mean that Taylor can do so too.

>
> Let's face it, those that cling to a circular timeline just don't want
> to give up on their adolescent conceptions of what they thought the
> APES series was. Just as it deals with time warps, so APES warped the
> minds of many a young person. I know that the makers of the series
> said that they tried to bring things "full-circle" with BATTLE, but
> even they admitted they failed and it's pretty obvious they did.
>

If C&Z had created an alternate timeline there would have been a line of dialogue establishing that as an element of the story. That's just storytelling 101. But the opposite is true. Dr. Milo says "The Earth will be destroyed just as we saw it". The Lawgiver states that C&Z, "Descended on Earth from Earth's own future". Caesar says, "I went looking for my past but I found our future". Dr Hasslein's entire motivation is that he believes that allowing C&Z and their baby to live will lead to the future they came from.

As far as the filmmakers the only one who ever commented on it was Paul Dehn, the screenwriter, and he clearly states that it was meant to be a circle and I don't ever remember him admitting that he failed in any way.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
> A Timeline book has been published (http://www.hassleinbooks.com/
> <http://www.hassleinbooks.com/> ) and it is a wonderful reference book for POTA fans. The beauty of the book is that is doesn't not try to reconcile all the various incarnations of POTA. It simply lists them and notes the discrepencies.

>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@ wrote:
> >
> > The plain fact that events happen after ESCAPE that contradict what's
> > described in ESCAPE
>
> I think the key word here is 'described'. Those events were not shown to
> the audience or witnessed by the characters who described them. Thus,
> they are at best hearsay and there can be many other explainations for
> the discrepancies.
>
> > and mentioned in PLANET
>
> What's mentioned in Planet is a human civilzation that existed 2,000
> years earlier, not 1,500 years earlier as described in Escape. Thus, the
> events of Conquest & Battle are more in line with Planet (and Beneath)
> than what's described in Escape.
>
> Plus, what's described in Escape even contracdicts itself in regard to
> Cornelius' earlier testimony that Apes had been speaking English for
> 2,000.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@ wrote:
> >
> > show that the timeline has
> > been altered, as anyone would know who's read enough science fiction
> > that deals with the same sort of time travel paradoxes.
>
> No they are discprencies that could have many other explainations. Just
> as if a third ship had been an element of the story there would have
> been a line of dialogue to establish that. And other science fiction
> doesn't apply. They each exist in their own universe with their own
> rules. Just because Luke Skywalker can use the force it doesn't mean
> that Taylor can do so too.

On the other hand, I think it would have been fascinating when Brent was brought before the mutuant leaders for the first time in "Beneath", if Taylor had emerged wearing mutant regalia of his own (instead of his loin cloth) and appeared to have been either successfully brainwashed OR was genuinely in league with the mutants' agenda (believing them still to be humanity's best hope) OR merely acting as if he were their side. In either case, if they trusted him, the mutants might well have experimented on him or managed somehow to teach him to perform some rudimentary psychic tasks or warfare, (enough so that if he chose, he might well have been able to neutralize if not overcome their use of traumatic hypnosis on himself).

After all, if they didn't regard him as an undesirable throwback, the mutants might well have been intending to use Taylor as breeding stock (a la Harlan Ellison's "A Boy And His Dog") to create a vital new race which might not only successfully thrive on Earth's surface again but also some centuries later might be numerous enough to eventually go to war with the apes. That's the only way I could see that they could have indefinitely preserved their Alpha Omega Bomb without having to resort to using it as a weapon.


--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@ wrote:
> >
> > Let's face it, those that cling to a circular timeline just don't want
> > to give up on their adolescent conceptions of what they thought the
> > APES series was. Just as it deals with time warps, so APES warped the
> > minds of many a young person. I know that the makers of the series
> > said that they tried to bring things "full-circle" with BATTLE, but
> > even they admitted they failed and it's pretty obvious they did.
> >
> No it is just accepting the story arc as it was presented without
> projecting other SF stories or theories on to it.

Perhaps the crux of the issue is what each of you may mean by "bringing things full circle."

In a sense, the POTA film series does come full circle in the sense that it comes back to a prior-visited philosphical-destiny crossroads from which that society must either choose the more nihlistic Doomsday path already prior-taken (in the future envisioned by "Planet of the Apes" and "Beneath") OR go down a separate path that hopefully avoids detouring back to that nihlistic Doomsday path.

The latter is the path taken in "Battle For The Planet of the Apes." The journey to that new future actually began, however, when Zira, Cornelius & Dr. Milo went back in time in "Escape." As such, their influence on history spiraled away from the original timeline and appeared to have for the most part, if not entirely, averted the original future envision in POTA and "Beneath."


--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@ wrote:
> >
> If C&Z had created an alternate timeline there would have been a line of
> dialogue establishing that as an element of the story. That's just
> storytelling 101. But the opposite is true. Dr. Milo says "The Earth
> will be destroyed just as we saw it". The Lawgiver states that C&Z,
> "Descended on Earth from Earth's own future". Caesar says, "I went
> looking for my past but I found our future". Dr Hasslein's entire
> motivation is that he believes that allowing C&Z and their baby to live
> will lead to the future they came from.
>
> As far as the filmmakers the only one who ever commented on it was Paul
> Dehn, the screenwriter, and he clearly states that it was meant to be a
> circle and I don't ever remember him admitting that he failed in any
> way.

Well, not "failed", but Arthur P. Jacobs certainly did not go with Dehn's original proposed more nihlistic closed-circle ending. Apparently, Dehn was reluctant to envision a more hopeful prospect for deviating from the path that led to the original "Planet of the Apes." For in Dehn's storyline for "Battle", although Caesar had earlier subplanted Aldo's place in history as the leader of the ape revolution, by the end of "Battle," Aldo would have reclaimed his timeline birthright and reasserted the path that led to the original POTA and "Beneath." Dehn's reluctance to rethink that more nihlistic closed-circle ending was in part apparently why Jacobs called in the Corringtons to take it from there.

So, while Dehn's closed-circle ending did not prevail, his darker vision may well have influenced the ending of "Battle for the Planet of the Apes" to be one that's neither perfectly happy nor perfectly nihlistic either. I call it "The Lady Or The Tiger" ending because the tear that falls from the eye of Caesar's statue can be interpretted two ways: Profound Sadness or Joy. In that sense, it's an uneasy ending that implies that we, the audience and our own descendants must supply that ending.

So, yes, Zira & Cornelius did come from Earth's future (albeit only one of many possible ones) and Caesar did indeed find their future, albeit one possible futre; however, as Virgil put it, echoing Hasslein, Time has an infinite number of highways leading from the past to the future and the future can be changed.

As to Dr. Hasslein, in my opinion, he apparently believed that foreknowledge of that possible dark future would not be enough to successfully avert it if living representatives of that dark future were left alive and well to propogate their own kind in the present.

In an offbeat ironic sense, however, the true savior of both Ape- and Humankind might well have been none other than Dr. Zaius, for it was the orangutan doctor who gave Zira & Cornelius a great commission: "If I should fail to return from the Unknown, the whole future of our civilization may be yours to destroy or protect. So think well before you act."

(Only, Zira & Cornelius' son, Caesar, expanded the "our" in "our civilization" to include both humans and apes.)

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@...> wrote:
>
>
> I think you took Cornelius' explanation about apes' pre-talking prehistory a little too literally. What Cornelius said in the movie, however, does sound closer to the spirit and content of the way Boulle explained apes' prehistory in his original POTA book.
>
> Except for the trained household-servant stuff, I infer by Cornelius' mention in "Escape" about those prior centuries of apes' servitude that he was referring to those centuries of their captivity in zoos, menageries, circuses, medical testing facilities, etc.
>

No he was pretty clear. First came the plague that killed dogs & cats. Then humans took apes as pets. Then the apes evolved from pets into slaves. Etc.

>
>
>
>  The journey to that new future actually began, however, when Zira, Cornelius & Dr. Milo went back in time in "Escape."
>
If that is an element of the story then there would be at least one line of dialogue directly stating it. Please cite it.

 
>
> Well, not "failed", but Arthur P. Jacobs certainly did not go with Dehn's original proposed more nihlistic closed-circle ending. Apparently, Dehn was reluctant to envision a more hopeful prospect for deviating from the path that led to the original "Planet of the Apes." For in Dehn's storyline for "Battle", although Caesar had earlier subplanted Aldo's place in history as the leader of the ape revolution, by the end of "Battle," Aldo would have reclaimed his timeline birthright and reasserted the path that led to the original POTA and "Beneath." Dehn's reluctance to rethink that more nihlistic closed-circle ending was in part apparently why Jacobs called in the Corringtons to take it from there.

No Jacobs hired the Corringtons because Dehn was ill at the time. When Dehn recovered the Corringtons were released and Dehn did the final rewrite. Either way this only makes the case that a new timeline was created by the events of Battle but not before.

>
> So, while Dehn's closed-circle ending did not prevail, his darker vision may well have influenced the ending of "Battle for the Planet of the Apes" to be one that's neither perfectly happy nor perfectly nihlistic either. I call it "The Lady Or The Tiger" ending because the tear that falls from the eye of Caesar's statue can be interpretted two ways: Profound Sadness or Joy. In that sense, it's an uneasy ending that implies that we, the audience and our own descendants must supply that ending.
>

Dehn stated that the tear was meant to tell the audience that Caesar's efforts had utimately failed. But again that speaks to a new timeline being created in Battle and not before.

> So, yes, Zira & Cornelius did come from Earth's future (albeit only one of many possible ones) and Caesar did indeed find their future, albeit one possible futre; however, as Virgil put it, echoing Hasslein, Time has an infinite number of highways leading from the past to the future and the future can be changed.
>
Yes both Hasslien and Virgil speak of many possible futures but never of multiple pasts. If they felt the past had already been changed why didn't they say so?

----- Original Message -----

From: Scott Raile

To: pota@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 3:58 PM

Subject: Re: [pota] Re: Variety magazines 1967-1974 - does anyone have access to them ?

Haristas@aol. com wrote:

Best place to look for that would be in LA.

Not at all!  Any decent big public library or University library will have Variety, probably on microfilm.  For instance, I work at the University of Colorado, and have full access to Variety magazine on microfilm.  Unfortunately, since I'm working on another book project, I don't have any time to spend on Apes right now.  Maybe in a year or so, but I would think that someone else on this list would have access to a good library.  And it doesn't have to be in LA!


Scott

>
>
> I think you took Cornelius' explanation about apes' pre

>
> Except for the trained household-servant stuff, I infer by

>

>
>
>
> The journey to that new future actually began, however, when

>

>
> Well, not "failed", but Arthur P. Jacobs certainly did not go with

>
> So, while Dehn's closed-circle ending did not prevail, his darker

>

> So, yes, Zira & Cornelius did come from Earth's future (albeit

>

>
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@> wrote:
> >
> > I think you took Cornelius' explanation about apes' pre-talking
> > prehistory a little too literally. What Cornelius said in the movie,
> > however, does sound closer to the spirit and content of the way Boulle
> > explained apes' prehistory in his original POTA book.
>
> > Except for the trained household-servant stuff, I infer by Cornelius'
> > mention in "Escape" about those prior centuries of apes' servitude that
> > he was referring to those centuries of their captivity in zoos,
> > menageries, circuses, medical testing facilities, etc.
>
> No he was pretty clear. First came the plague that killed dogs & cats.
> Then humans took apes as pets. Then the apes evolved from pets into
> slaves. Etc.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@> wrote:
> >
> > The journey to that new future actually began, however, when Zira,
> Cornelius & Dr. Milo went back in time in "Escape."
>
> If that is an element of the story then there would be at least one line
> of dialogue directly stating it. Please cite it.

Again, there was no Zira, Cornelius & Dr. Milo who'd returned to 1973 of the original timeline that led to the original Planet of the Apes of the first two films. And since there had been no Zira, Cornelius or Dr. Milo who'd returned to 1973 of that original POTA timeline, then neither had there been any Milo/Caesar to subplant Aldo.

Comparatively speaking, in the forthcoming "Terminator Salvation" movie, John Connor will exist in a timeline that deviates from the one of the original "Terminator" and "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" because although he grew up and led the revolution against the machines in the "Judgment Day" timeline, he learns in "Terminator 3" that he would eventually be assassinated by an infiltrator Terminator robot, which was reprogrammed and sent back into the past by Connor's surviving wife to not only save him from another Skynet assassination attempt in the past but also to alert him to his future demise which he apparently would know in advance to try to avert. (Unlike the one in "Terminator 3," the Terminator robot in "Terminator 2: Judgment Day" didn't alert John Connor about anything about his destiny that might motivate him to want to alter it.)

The Terminator novels also explore the paradoxes of John Connors and Skynets of multiple futures competing with each for domination of the past.


--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@> wrote:
> >
> > Well, not "failed", but Arthur P. Jacobs certainly did not go with
> > Dehn's original proposed more nihlistic closed-circle ending.
> > Apparently, Dehn was reluctant to envision a more hopeful prospect for
> > deviating from the path that led to the original "Planet of the Apes."
> > For in Dehn's storyline for "Battle", although Caesar had earlier
> > subplanted Aldo's place in history as the leader of the ape revolution,
> > by the end of "Battle," Aldo would have reclaimed his timeline
> > birthright and reasserted the path that led to the original POTA and
> > "Beneath." Dehn's reluctance to rethink that more nihlistic
> > closed-circle ending was in part apparently why Jacobs called in the
> > Corringtons to take it from there.
>
> No, Jacobs hired the Corringtons because Dehn was ill at the time. When
> Dehn recovered, the Corringtons were released and Dehn did the final
> rewrite.

While I do faintly recall something about Dehn's being out of the picture (metaphorically speaking) for a while, notably, that final rewrite of "Battle" no longer contained his original more nihlistic closed-circle ending which had had Aldo successfully overthrowing Caesar and resuming the course of history that led to the original Planet of the Apes.


--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@> wrote:
> >
> > Either way, this only makes the case that a new timeline was
> > created by the events of "Battle" but not before.

I would say that the events of "Battle" certainly finalized the commitment for both apes and humans to form a different more positive future and timeline; however, I disagree that the new timeline was only created by the events of "Battle" and not before. I say this because in the timeline of the original "Planet of the Apes", there had been no Caesar in their distant past to subplant Aldo, nor any arrival of Cornelius, Zira and Dr. Milo from the future.


--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@> wrote:
>
> > So, while Dehn's closed-circle ending did not prevail, his darker
> >vision may well have influenced the ending of "Battle for the Planet of
> >the Apes" to be one that's neither perfectly happy nor perfectly
> >nihlistic either. I call it "The Lady Or The Tiger" ending because the
> >tear that falls from the eye of Caesar's statue can be interpretted two
> >ways: Profound Sadness or Joy. In that sense, it's an uneasy ending that
> >implies that we, the audience and our own descendants must supply that
> >ending.
>
>
> Dehn stated that the tear was meant to tell the audience that Caesar's
> efforts had utimately failed. But again that speaks to a new timeline
> being created in "Battle" and not before.

Well, since Dehn advocated the more nihlistic closed-circle ending, I'm not surprised such would be his take on the matter. Unfortunately, intentions do not guarantee results. Moreover, the only way I could even halfway seriously buy that notion would be if the music underscoring the Caesar statue scene had conveyed irony, darkness and mystery instead of that more uplifting theme of hope.

Nonetheless, despite that hopeful-sounding music underscoring the Caesar crying-statue scene at the end of "Battle," I myself am not complacent or content to assume all will be well. Indeed, the tear falling from the eye of Caesar's statue is open to interpretation as either profound sadness or profound joy for humanity & apes' prospects for a more peaceful future. In that sense, the ambiguity of the ending makes it all the more unsettling albeit in a more edifying way.


--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James" <JamesA1102@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In pota@yahoogroups.com, "James King" <shrstrategygames@> wrote:
> >
> > So, yes, Zira & Cornelius did come from Earth's future (albeit only
> >one of many possible ones) and Caesar did indeed find their future,
> >albeit one possible futre; however, as Virgil put it, echoing Hasslein,
> >Time has an infinite number of highways leading from the past to the
> >future and the future can be changed.
>
> Yes both Hasslien and Virgil speak of many possible futures but never of
>multiple pasts. If they felt the past had already been changed, why
>didn't they say so?

Hasslein's Theory of Infinite Regression seemed to indirectly address it; but it's so abstract, I can hardly think of how to express it in words. The problem is also that the Present becomes the Past in the blink of an eye. Whereas I can readily embrace the notion of Multiverses (each unique unto itself), I myself don't particularly care for the Parallel Worlds Theory, even though it's actually won advocates in the real-life scientific community. I don't like it because the Parallel Worlds Theory takes away one's uniqueness of existence and makes one feel as if he/she were just another reflection in a funhouse hall of mirrors. (Or to put it another way, "Journey To The Far Side of the Sun Gone Wild.")

In either case, the return of Zira, Cornelius & Dr. Milo from the future to Earth's past seems as valid a literary device as the visit of the Three Spirits in "A Christmas Carol" to take Scrooge on a Past-Present-Future odessey in hopes of altering both his character and future. And in that story, we are indeed shown a more nihlistic future that Scrooge would eventually have realized if he failed to make change his behavior.

--- In pota@yahoogroups.com, Haristas@... wrote:
> My philosophy on this is very simple: PLANET came first and when it was
> created there was no idea of a sequel, no idea of a prequel(s),
> therefore there is no back story to PLANET, other than Cornelius
> vaguely mentioning a "stage of primitive barbarism," and Zaius saying
> that the sacred scrolls were written 1,200 years ago.
>
> Everything Dehn wrote after that was revisionism (he didn't even get
> the year PLANET took place in right) and he contradicts himself. When
> was the nuclear war supposed to have taken place? If apes were slaves
> for hundreds of years, as he says in ESCAPE, then it must have happened
> after that, but then he has it take place between CONQUEST and BATTLE.
> He re-writes himself. Phooey on Dehn!
>
> Face it, everything after PLANET is more than a little silly and harder
> to make logical sense of than if you just take the original by itself.
> At least the makers of the first film had the sense to leave the "hows"
> to the imagination, but to contend that the sequels explain PLANET...
> well, it's a pretty lame explanation.
>
> -- Rory

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:19 AM, Tim "apefan" <apefan23@...> wrote:

PROFILES IN HISTORY SPRING AUCTION OF HOLLYWOOD MEMORABILILA BRINGS IN OVER 4 MILLION DOLLARS

Harrison Ford's Blaster From Blade Runner, An Original 1931 Frankenstein Movie Poster, The Creature From The Black Lagoon Mask, Arnold Schwarzenegger's Mr. Freeze Costume Highlight Huge Sale

Forrest J Ackerman's estate Collection, An Archive of B/W and Color Negatives From the M-G-M, Fox, and Warner Bros. Vaults and a Screen Used Hunter-Killer From Terminator Also Big Hits With Collectors

Calabasas, CA- The Harrison Ford "Rick Deckard" hero blaster from Blade Runner ($270,000), an original Frankenstein one-sheet movie poster ($216,000), an archive of B/W and color negatives from the M-G-M, Fox, and Warner Bros. vaults ($210,000) the original Creature from the Black Lagoon hero "Gill Man" mask from Revenge of the Creature ($84,000) and Arnold Schwarzenegger's "Mr. Freeze" costume from Batman & Robin ($72,000) were the top items in the recently completed Profiles in History Spring Auction of Hollywood memorabilia. A total of
$4.2 Million worth of props, costumes, movie posters, photos and more were picked up by collectors around the world.

Other highlights included a screen used hero aerial Hunter / Killer from The Terminator ($66,000), Derek Meers' Jason Voorhees" costume from Friday the 13th ($54,000), Two velociraptors feeding on a triceratops display from Jurassic Park ($51,000) and Ray Park "Darth Maul" fighting lightsaber from Star Wars: Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace ($48,000). Bidders also competed vigorously for items from the Forrest J Ackerman Estate Collection, as Forry's Metropolis "Maria" robot sold for $48,000, as did the Bela Lugosi "Dracula" ring. Lugosi's "Vampire" cape worn in The Raven, The Return of the Vampire, The Whispering Shadow and his final performance in Plan 9 from Outer Space sold for $39,000.

More highlights included:

· Original screen-used Elven bed with five Elves and decorated illuminating Christmas tree from A Nightmare Before Christmas ($48,000)
· Complete hero Maurice Evans "Dr. Zaius" costume from The Planet of the Apes and Beneath the Planet of the Apes ($48,000)
· Screen-used "Teddy" puppet and lighting dummy from A.I.: Artificial Intelligence ($48,000)
· Harrison Ford "Rick Deckard" "Voight Kampff" costume from Blade Runner ($48,000)
· Charlton Heston "Colonel George Taylor" costume and display from Planet of the Apes ($48,000)
· Matthew Broderick "Ferris Bueller" leather jacket from Ferris Bueller's Day Off ($42,000)
· Jim Carrey signature "Riddler" rhinestone unitard and glitter-covered creepers from Batman Forever ($36,000)
· Tom Hanks "Capt. John H. Miller" and Matt Damon "Pvt. James Francis Ryan" hero costumes from Saving Private Ryan ($36,000)
· Screen-used Christmas Town building from The Nightmare Before Christmas ($30,000)

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:10 PM, rob reading <readingrob@...> wrote:

Hi Jess, www.profilesinhistory.com and type in planet of the apes in search window. There are 33 items to look at. Enjoy.

Rob R

---

To: pota@yahoogroups.com
From: jessicarotich@...
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 09:36:43 -0700
Subject: Re: [pota] Profiles in History

WOW! Are there photos of this wondrous Armageddon riding outfit that Dr. Zaius wore in Beneath?

Jessica.

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 5:19 AM, Tim "apefan" <apefan23@...> wrote:

PROFILES IN HISTORY SPRING AUCTION OF HOLLYWOOD MEMORABILILA BRINGS IN OVER 4 MILLION DOLLARS

Harrison Ford's Blaster From Blade Runner, An Original 1931 Frankenstein Movie Poster, The Creature From The Black Lagoon Mask, Arnold Schwarzenegger's Mr. Freeze Costume Highlight Huge Sale

Forrest J Ackerman's estate Collection, An Archive of B/W and Color Negatives From the M-G-M, Fox, and Warner Bros. Vaults and a Screen Used Hunter-Killer From Terminator Also Big Hits With Collectors

Calabasas, CA- The Harrison Ford "Rick Deckard" hero blaster from Blade Runner ($270,000), an original Frankenstein one-sheet movie poster ($216,000), an archive of B/W and color negatives from the M-G-M, Fox, and Warner Bros. vaults ($210,000) the original Creature from the Black Lagoon hero "Gill Man" mask from Revenge of the Creature ($84,000) and Arnold Schwarzenegger's "Mr. Freeze" costume from Batman & Robin ($72,000) were the top items in the recently completed Profiles in History Spring Auction of Hollywood memorabilia. A total of
$4.2 Million worth of props, costumes, movie posters, photos and more were picked up by collectors around the world.

Other highlights included a screen used hero aerial Hunter / Killer from The Terminator ($66,000), Derek Meers' Jason Voorhees" costume from Friday the 13th ($54,000), Two velociraptors feeding on a triceratops display from Jurassic Park ($51,000) and Ray Park "Darth Maul" fighting lightsaber from Star Wars: Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace ($48,000). Bidders also competed vigorously for items from the Forrest J Ackerman Estate Collection, as Forry's Metropolis "Maria" robot sold for $48,000, as did the Bela Lugosi "Dracula" ring. Lugosi's "Vampire" cape worn in The Raven, The Return of the Vampire, The Whispering Shadow and his final performance in Plan 9 from Outer Space sold for $39,000.

More highlights included:

· Original screen-used Elven bed with five Elves and decorated illuminating Christmas tree from A Nightmare Before Christmas ($48,000)
· Complete hero Maurice Evans "Dr. Zaius" costume from The Planet of the Apes and Beneath the Planet of the Apes ($48,000)
· Screen-used "Teddy" puppet and lighting dummy from A.I.: Artificial Intelligence ($48,000)
· Harrison Ford "Rick Deckard" "Voight Kampff" costume from Blade Runner ($48,000)
· Charlton Heston "Colonel George Taylor" costume and display from Planet of the Apes ($48,000)
· Matthew Broderick "Ferris Bueller" leather jacket from Ferris Bueller's Day Off ($42,000)
· Jim Carrey signature "Riddler" rhinestone unitard and glitter-covered creepers from Batman Forever ($36,000)
· Tom Hanks "Capt. John H. Miller" and Matt Damon "Pvt. James Francis Ryan" hero costumes from Saving Private Ryan ($36,000)
· Screen-used Christmas Town building from The Nightmare Before Christmas ($30,000)

---

Share your photos with Windows Live Photos – Free. Try it Now!